Things Gothic 1+2 (Still) Do Better Than Elex
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- Elex (2017) is surprisingly good and actually has some notable improvements over Piranha Bytes' older games, but perhaps unsurprisingly there's still a lot of great things from the original Gothic games that somehow have never made it into PB's subsequent games, and which are sorely lacking in Elex.
All of my footage from Gothic and Gothic 2 in this video was recorded with the DX11 mod.
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Gothic 1+2 still better then most RPG these days
Me too, Gothic 1+2 are just the best RPG game for me until today. Maybe there are not as much "content" like in Skyrim or The Witcher but it's quality is the best of
i wish we had a mod that just changed the combat (its so atrocious) and maybe upped the graphics to todays standard
As a RPG Witcher series and dark souls comes to my mind
The only true RPGs that have a lot of immersion - The Witcher series (hardest difficulties need less HUD, even though I like the maps with GPS), Pathfinder:Kingmaker/Tyranny(my fav even though devs nerfed all the solo builds, PepeHands) /D:OS1 and 2 and POE (even though they are cRPGs) , DS1/Demon's Souls. Other than that? Nothing really atmospheric and immersive.
Edit: Gothic 1 was imo better than Gothic 2, dont hate me but I like smaller and semi-open world games (same goes for W3 vs W2 vs W1 where imo W1 and W2 are better than W3 in terms of immersion and atmosphere).
Matej Bošeľa As someone played both gothic games ı agree that some aspects og the first gothic is greater than most rpgs that come up in recent years.Only down side is combat.Wish piranhabytes figured how to make a great combat mechnics their world building is not bad.
Sometimes I wonder what Gothic did to me, that I still want to watch every video about it, even 20 years after release.
The true danger of letting Germans design something ;D
schweig still und pflücke meine rüben
same here. i can't actually play most modern rpgs as they feel so lackluster in comparison. knowing how good a game can be is a curse :D
@@HCMORGI yeah, totally agree with you
it annoys me how good this game is, there is just nothing like it an PB refuse to make another game like like it. I just want the old gothic atmosphere so badly.
I played Gothic 1 & 2 for the first time this year during an epidemic and oh boy these 2 games are beyond anything I've played in the last 20 years, and if I had to say what I liked most in it is immersion and perfect map size with the memorable world!
EDIT: Omg I didn't realize until you said it, but Gothic is literally the only game where NPC helps me out so much that I literally want to help them back! Especially true in Gothic 2: NoTR where Diego literally got me 3 levels higher in Valley of the Mines. I would taunt orcs and he would kill them, I literally loved this guy after this, same with Larus in the stone golems quest!
ha I'm old, I'm played G1 and G2 when they were released or short after ^^ and I'm still missing games like these two. I guess Witcher 3 is often named as similar immersive but I've never played it. Last one was Witcher 2. Last time I've played one of the two games was 10+ years ago, so there is nostalgia but still. Example: G1, there was a cave on a hill/mountan or behind a waterfall there was a cave with goblins. Small things, but what he said in the video - this one or another about Gothic 1+2, the map, no the Gothic World is nearly perfect size, interesting and so fine done, you can orientate on land marks and find things which can help a lot. Like in G2, a sword on the coast, without the add-on, you can use it very early and it does great damage or a hidden scroll which allowes you to go in an area which would be a bit harder/a few levels later possible.
And I totally agree with the NPC-Friends! in Gothic 1+2, really a shame that studio lost that touch.
Yeah it's a shame what they did with Diego in the Gothic remake
@@CreamyClaws yeah, I can't imagine it to be not a soulless game. It has the name but no clue if it will be that bad, but Ghostbusters 2016 also has "Ghostbusters" in it's name... ;)
Lobarts Wife, giving you the stew after your fieldwork in the beginning and countless other things.
I saw somewhere a vid after the demo to the possible remake and the guy explained great for me an important part of the feeling of the world.
Its a harsh world yes, but the people there have a motivation, trying to make a life in this harsh world, a lot are rough but still good people. Of course there are a lot of a s s holes too, but even they have very human reasons for their actions even if you dont like them.
Its just so incredible..near to life for a fantasy game. Even the political situation in Khorinis between the city and Onar and the mercenaries fits perfectly in the world.
I dont know why, but they were never able to replicate this after Gothic 2.
Larus hahhahah, I really had to think about who is Larus but I got you
Actually the hero in Gothic has a name, but people are just rude and never let him introduce himself.
@@Reality-Distortion Main char is a Tribal confirmed?
I haven''t played Elex yet, but one thing that still stood out of my Gothic experience, was that most humans didn't try to kill you. Sure, they'd knock you out and steal you blank, but to the convicts in the colony a human live had value. Also that you killing other humans was more of a choice (often with consequence) and less an random byproduct of melee.
Haven't noticed such a thing in a game in years.
Agreed, only other games where killing is a 'choice' I can think of, is Way of the Samurai 3\4. Where you can use the blunt weapon to do non-lethal, which has no barring on anything but your end-score \ personal choice, outside of a few main characters, and Expedition: Viking. Where turning of 'lethal' disables criticals, but ensures everyone you defeat survive, some quests this is important ,but it's fluff most of the time.
It also means that the player can genuinely lose fights and not have to reload. Getting stronger and coming back to take your stuff back from the guy who robbed you is awesome. Gothic is the only game I can think of that does this outside of scripted "supposed to lose" fights. Gothic does it all through genuine gameplay.
One thing the games seem to have lost is using verticality to their advantage. The plateau around Bengar's farm feels really secluded - but it's right next to the lake by the entrance to Onar's land, just way higher up.
To achieve a similar secluded feel Elex uses vast swathes of empty wasteland - and if it isn't empty it has some easily skippable fights on it.
Multiple times while playing Gothic, Gothic II and sometimes even Risen I would stop and wonder that two places that seem really far appart are actually right next to each other. Paths are winding and narrow, full of dangerous enemies which are valuable to fight because XP is finite.
Here the cumbersome map system might have really helped the games. Because maps are expensive, not overly detailed, slow to look at and put away and have no zoom function you don't use them constantly like in many modern games. Directions are also given for people walking on foot instead of someone looking at a map. So I find myself only using a map when I am really lost - which means it's harder to notice how close everything is together.
The world evolving from chapter to chapter also helps with how huge the smaller world feels; if a small piece of road has several memorable encounters on it in different chapters it just feels bigger to me. Elex's desert meanwhile is ok to explore for exploration's sake but outside of three, maybe four hotspots involved in quests (including the outlaw city) there is nothing memorable in that third of the map.
I mean, the most tense parts of ELEX take place in "ruins" imo where using your JP can be just as hindering as helpful. I like feeling like a badass Boba Fett in the open but also appreciate getting my ass handed to me like Boba Fett indoors, also.
Not to forget that in Gothic 1 you could actually visit an InExtremo concert with their music playing. Btw song: Herr Mannelig.
It seems that a lot of things that made gothic 1 and 2 such great games were not actually rational decisions but random things that clicked in place. That would explain why the creators cannot replicate the basics.
Yeah. Kinda like the interconnectivity of the world of the first Dark Souls. Everyone thought that it was intentional and hoped for the same thing in the 2nd and the 3rd games, but it never happened.
@@xenon333 it happens more often than people think, with writing, painting, movies everything... People explain things that the creator didn't even know are there...
Most of the original creators aren't part of the Piranha Bytes dev team anymore.
@@TheHarkonnenScum true but for people that make the remake for example, some of these things should be obvious..But they are not!
@GigaX in any case it was a moment of genius, especially for the time. They r my favorite games. Still play them
In my opinion the worst part about the newer games is the gps system on your map. In gothic you actually have to listen to the NPCs, otherwise you dont know where to go. And nothing feels better then finding the Quest on your own, exploring the world while you looking for your quest.
The point is: you CAN LISTEN to the way descriptions of the NPCs, because they do describe it to you. Something lacking in nearly all modern games.
Another reason why this is so in many modern RPGs is the sheer size of the maps in modern games. Ever since the first two Gothic games released, RPGs have just gotten bigger and bigger when it comes to map size. Very few RPGs filled their play area with dense and meaningful content just like the first two Gothics did, so the larger map size actually feels like a diversion to cover up lacking immersion and design elements. The most obvious side effect will be icon filled GPS looking maps.
I legit don't know what you mean as I'm like 10 hours in ELEX and most of the quests have been "I don't know where they went, maybe ask someone who worked with them." being given NO markers and having to deduce who works with them based on clothing alone. Heck one mission I got wasnt even givin to me, I just found a note with a time and description of a place on it was like "OH YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT AREA" and then went back to wait for the bastard who caused my mark to OD on shite chems.
Yeah, sometimes there are markers for certain things/quests but that makes sense contex wise.
There was parts in Gothic 2 where if you weren't paying attention you could get screwed over later on. For example certain NPCs will give you instructions on how to get into Khorinis after you finish a task for them. But even at the gate of Khorinis the guard will ask you questions, if you weren't listening to others before you can make the incorrect mistake of choosing dialogue that will not let the guard letting you through. You can of course pay the hefty fine of course. Mind you there's about 7 ways to get into Gothic 2, some not even advised yet the game recognizes you did them with NPCs like Lares giving you extra XP for figuring out how to get in another way.
In Gothic 1 if you didn't inquire further with Diego on matters of the Old Camp, he will feel you weren't interested in joining and simply leave you there telling you that if you're not interested that's fine. But that also means at the Old Camp gate when you arrive the guard will demand you pay 10 ore to get in. If you talked further with Diego you will gain his permission to enter the Old Camp and the guard will not tell you to pay to come in. BUT there's also a very interesting part of the Old Camp, the back entrance your character will lie to get in and they won't make you pay. So you can see there's so many ways to solve a problem in the game that makes it look like it was your adventure and your character.
I've always thought that smaller open worlds are better. Just really focus on that area and make it really stand out. I haven't played Gothic 1 in years but I could still describe in detail how you get from the old camp to the swamp camp and could do the same for many other locations (and for G2). Yeah, I've played through the game like six times. But I doubt I could do the same for any other game even if I would play it as much. I always find it really petty how people spend so much time trashing the fighting system - that is btw sooo much better than many AAA games today (Skyrims combat is worse) - not even realising how out of place a more action oriented system would feel. I think games are best if they focus on what they are good at and make the other parts serviceable, so the both the developer and the Player get to focus on the good stuff. Many people seem to think that more features equals a better game. There is no other reason I can come up with to explain why people like the Elder Scrolls.
I like the newer PB games too, I haven't played Elex yet, but I enjoyed the Risen series. Yes, they are worse than Gothic, but unlike other fans of Gothic I do feel you should try to appreciate every title for what they do well and don't expect it too be just like Gothic. I don't necessarily think that they should go back to making games like Gothic to be honest. But there is something missing in their newer titles and it feels to me that there is a lack of a coherent vision.
While the RPG Genre is getting more prominent these days, there is still no game that provides an experience similar to these games. I think that is sad. That there was a game so great that accomplished so much with all the technical limitations, and for some reason it never got the regognition it deserved and even though it became a cult classic, nobody really tried to make something like that again. If a game of a comparative quality but modern grafics got released today on steam it would be a worldwide success and would propably sell Millions of copies. But nobody is even trying to do so.
Agree. Risen 1 wasn't the biggest either... the map was quite easily explored fully. And there was enough story in it to keep the gamer happy. I do wish though.. they had DLC added and added one little island that you can reach right next to the harbor for some more quests and add a cave with some other monsters. It could've been a bit better.
@@capcom23 As I've said I enjoyed the Risen series and Risen 1 was by far the best one. I do think that from a world design perspective it propably comes closer to gothic than any other game (if you actually know a game that comes closer pleeeeeease tell me). But I had a lot of problems with the story of Risen, it just didn't feel very believable to me. Everyone is different regarding how far they are able to suspend their disbelieve, so I think there are many people who would disagree. For me the whole thing about these ruins coming out of the ground was just ridiculous. Were they there the whole time or did they just magically come into existence? How did the enemies get into these ruins? Did they come from the Volcano or were they there when it rose from the ground? There isn't really a need for those ruins for the story to make sense it's just a stupid gimmick. The world does look really great though. Exploring the Island was really fun, but it never felt as good as it could be. I can't really say why. To me many things felt artificial that just felt right in Gothic. At times everything was awesome but there were too many moments were things just didn't feel grounded enough. I don't want to leave the impression I didn't like Risen. I played it three times and I will propably do it again. But it doesn't evoke the same emotions Gothic did. I really don't think Risen should be longer. The ending is already way too long and doesn't provide anything interesting in the last few hours imho. But if there was a dlc that was like Night of the Raven (even though I don't really like NotR) with a more self contained story line or a standalone DLC that uses all the assets but is a seperate short game, that would be great. Expanding the existing story doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
@@zuiop9993 Wasnt the ruins rising up connected with the lizardmen. Their old empire or something like that. And those lizardmen were the servants of titans if i remember correctly. So when titans rose up, so did the lizards and the remnants of their empire. They lived secretly in the volcano but lived all over the island thousands of years ago. And didnt like monsters come out of those ruins, so humans were not allowed to wander around the island. Or was it monsters looking for shelter in the smaller ruins. And the big ruins were hiding titan armor pieces with lizardmen protecting those pieces and so on. I dont remember it well, but i dont remember it being some gimmick.
@@glikorgo Yes, I believe what you said is correct, but you could have the lizardmen from the volcano and other mosters walking around making the island unsafe without these ruins. Or have them, but say that they have always been there and the lizzards and other monsters are using them as hiding spots or whatever. I just couldn't possibly believe that they just rose from the ground. Especially since the surroundings of these ruins didn't really look like it should. If they came from the ground we should see evidence of that. Like displaced earth and rocks. I can understand if you think I am nitpicking, but for me this shattered the believability of the world.
And like I have said, there is no real need for something like that to make the story work. Maybe that doesn't necessarily make it a gimmick... My english isn't so good it was the first word I was thinking when describing them.
Great comment my man. " I haven't played Gothic 1 in years but I could still describe in detail how you get from the old camp to the swamp camp and could do the same for many other locations (and for G2)." - exactly. Elex was okay, but it lacked something. The world was too big, the factions felt like you were picking the least terrible option (and not in a good way). The whole I have emotions, but not really, but yeah I have some, but not really, it just felt weird. Everyone recognizing Jax and what not. No upgraded attack animations...Risen 1 was great, Risen 3 wasn't as good but I really enjoyed it, and Risen 2 I only finished once I played Risen 3 and decided to try Risen 2 againt after dropping it years ago due to the terrible combat and whatnot. I'd prolly rank the games from best to worst: Gothic 2, Gothic 1, Risen 1, Risen 3, Elex, Gothic 3 (has one of my favorite soundtracks ever), Risen 2.
having watched the full video now, I can definitely say you made a lot of great points here. The one that really really hit home for me was the part where you mentioned that you can go through an elimination process when it comes to where to go next, this was especially true for gothic 2 imo.
I love how Gothic's world design and quest design are both open enough to leave things up to you to figure out on your own, but with enough organized structure in the world to help facilitate independent exploration. In Gothic your objectives are usually in pretty specific, well-defined areas that you can get to on your own through basic instructions and sign posts, and then it just comes down to exploring that area and finding what you need to do. When someone tells you to search "the woods behind Sekob's farm," or the "high plains near the pass," for instance, it's easy to figure out where those areas are and when you're starting to leave those areas, so you have a strong focal point to guide exploration -- you're not just aimlessly wandering around hoping to stumble into the objective.
In contrast, a lot of open world games are just too big and open that trying to find things on your own ends up feeling like a wild goose chase without the aid of crutches like quest markers. Skyrim's radiant quest design, for instance, makes it literally impossible to find things on your own because there's absolutely no in-game description of where the objective is, and they often send you way off into distant territories that all blend together, or feel like random instances in the huge open world. All of those random caves and fortresses are practically interchangeable in the world so there's no way to distinguish one from another, or even the surrounding environment, when exploring the overworld.
Elex falls somewhere between the two, but leans a little more closely to Skyrim than I'd like. There are some side quests, for instance, that you can solve without those markers -- Born's quest in Goliet to retrieve rare healing plants from the lake above Goliet, for instance, takes place in a well-defined area that you can actually navigate to on your own just by looking at the map -- but then the quest to find rare healing plants for Nasty is the exact opposite where there's absolutely no way to figure that out on your own, short of meticulously combing every square foot of the map. Elex's world has a ton of rewarding things to discover and lots of interesting areas to explore, but overall it doesn't have the same focused direction and organized structure of Gothic and Gothic 2.
You can still have big open worlds and not have quest markers. In Morrowind, for instance, which is larger than G2's main world and G1, when you're sent to Arkngthand, you're being given clear instructions on how to get there in your journal. I don't know, it just feels very rewarding after wondering for a bit, something clicks in and you're all like "ah yea, this is the place". I'm not sure if there are many current "mainstream-ish" games that do that though.
Except, in morrowind this figurig things out part is a lot more sandboxy and lot less integrated into the game world and hence doesnt feel particularly interedting.
@@modernmeat23 haha I've got a Morrowind version with a grafics card after, one year after I've already played G1. Game was only in English, back then my English was not great, it was sometimes hard to follow and internet was 56k (28k but later it got 56k ^^)
After G1, the world of Morrowind was a bit stale to me, that and the language barrier. To get to the point, I should find a place and I never found it, never ended the game ^^ This is 15+ years ago, was it a cave only visible at moon light or something like that? ^^
@@nopenope1 hehe, Arkngthand was really early on after a few quests in Balmora and around Balmora
Games nowdays are becoming dopamine dispenser, made with very little effort and attention.
well... they are dopamine dispensers but gothic 1 and 2 did it in a genious way. The dopamine rush came slowly and persisted throughout the whole game and you really felt the impact of it becoming stronger the more you play..
Elex is not bad but it kinda takes a while to get into, it's somewhat gothic 3'ish
...also dumbed down with wall hack vision, quest marks, cover mechanics and constant helpers telling you what and how to do it. You can't just find out things by yourself. New games are insulting gamers intelligence .
I went on a rant the other day after beating RE8 blind on Hardcore mode, looking at reviews and then seeing people bitch the game was too hard.
My roomie was just calmly like "Dude, companies realized people like WINNING, so they started making games easier to fuel that urge. No one actually wants a challenge anymore, they want to watch someone else deal with the challenge online."
I was so heartbroken cuz what they said was so true.
Your English is very clear, I'm not native and can understand you perfectly
Thanks for making this video. Been expecting the video version of your blog article since a long time 😊
if they reuse most of the assest of elex for elex 2 they can focus a lot more on the details
They don't have resources to focus on the details that's why their games having not much interest for most people.
@@TheMicheilsGrey That's because they make the games too big. Imagine putting the same amount of work that they did for the world of Elex and use it to create a world in the size of Gothic 1...
@@tehpeasant yea, the world in elex 1 is far too big. its much better, in most cases, to make a more compact and more detailed world than some generic open world ala far cry and assassins creed. nier automata did it right, a compact world which actually CAN tell a story and doesnt feel like some sandbox to play in which utterly would destroy my immersion. i had to drop elex after 10h as the world and the general feel of the game was an absolute desaster.
@@foulXD I finished it eventually but it was a grind and I definitely don't want to do it again. Same with Gothic 3 btw
Amazing video... I love how deep your analysis is, and I really hope Piranha Bytes will draw their inspiration from this video for their future games.
Im so happy about your upload. This video is awesome and so well put together
gothics atmosphere and fantastic progression/difficulty is still unmatched.
i first played gothic 1 when i was 10-11 years old. CANT DESCRIBE THE FEELING.
Also i played 2 and 3 and all of the are beyond awsomness
Gothic 1&2 were my Childhood and I still wish for a game to capture the original feeling. I think there are certain Elements that Piranha Bytes did better in each one of the games, so a perfect PB Game for me would look somewhat like this:
- Atmosphere and Immersion from Gothic (1): Give us a unique Universe with Characters that feel like real people, I wanna see guys from camp 1 talk about a trip to the mine and then see them go there in real time. I wanna see a small world that feels huge because there is so much to see in that small space.
-Classes and Factions from Gothic 2: Gothic 1 had great Factions from a lore/worldbuilding Point, but they were insignificant when it comes to your character build. Gothic 2 nailed this in my opinion, the playstyle of each faction was as unique as the journey you had, I especially adore the mage progression. Magic feels like a secret kept by an organisation you have to proove your worth to before they innitiate you into the secrets of magic. And yes this means getting a sheep and delivering sausage before you get to cast even a simple fireball.
-Combat System from Risen (1): Combat systems in Gothic have allways been easily exploitable trash, Elexs´combat system is bad as well. Risens combat system is pretty dynamic, Melee has a lot of Options that unlock as you progress your character. Its not perfect, but its by far the best PB has ever done.
-Quality of Life Stuff from Elex: Elex has made a lot of menu interactions and inventory management a lot more bearable than it ever was in a PB Game, which is pretty important if they want to appeal to a wider audience. I however would get rid of the tutorial messages and map marker system in favor of a more immersive system like NPC´s giving more vague directions if they arent sure where the target is and map markers if they are sure where to go.
How to win in melee in Risen 1: Keep your distance, use the Lunge attack, hop backwards, then repeat.
Risen 1's combat was too sudden, enemies lacked proper tells which made exchanging blows hard. Once you can lunge at enemies from a distance that doesn't trigger their aggression, that ends up being the key to victory the vast majority of the time.
Тhe dynamic attack animation development was major in Gothic. I played Morrowind a bit later and was stunned at how awkwardly static the fighting seemed, you had your fixed type of hits and the enemies didn't even respond properly to being hit.
The weapon upgrading in Elex literally destroyed the need to find epic equipmen, which required much more stats to be used as compared to upgraded general weapons
I agree with your point. Gothic 1 and 2 are for me one of the best RPG I ever played. I even don't know how many times I beat these games. What a memories. And Gothic 2 + Night of the Ravens, hands down mine favorite from all Gothic games.
I agree that these games are unique thanks to map size and perfect design and gating. I never feel that map is small for me, because everywhere on map was something interesting but usually hide behind some challenge. Like in Gothic 2, near Black Troll is cave where is Skeleton Knight to strong for you when you get there for first time, but if you can get Speed Potion, you can run to cave, take pretty good sword and run a way :D or use some strong spells, but sword is useless because you don't have strength for it, but is pretty cool to have it to future.
And there is lots other hide places in game.
PB Fan since the very beginning here. As a German PB Fan I agree with you in some points, but a PB Game remains a PB game (let's exclude Gothic 3 here for a moment) when it comes to beautifully HANDCRAFTED LIVING AND BREATHING WORLDS! I must admit that I too miss the crafting I have been entertained with in Gothic 1, 2 and Risen 1. I simply miss working on the Anvil or an Alchemy Lab, or a Campfire / Cooking Pot etc. Yes... these MAY appear to be small details, but they also add to the immersion.
Elex does a lot of good things, but as you said.. some of the "juicy details" are sadly missing! Man... I still remember how happy I was when I managed to forge my own very first Sword in Gothic 1, or my very first victory over some hated enemies (Lefty *cough cough*) after learning how to handle a one handed weapon properly! So yes... to quote another hated enemy (but this time around it just fits): it gave me a sense of PRIDE AND ACCOMPLISHMENT :)
Wonderful video! looking forward to more elex content :)
How did I even get here? I don't even play Gothic or Elex. Yet I watched the entire thing.
Now you got to start playing gothic (don't play the fourth though, it was made by a different developer)
Great video! Let's hope that PB recognised some of these things when starting development on Elex 2. Elex is a good RPG, but there is still such a long way to reach the heights of games like Gothic 1 & 2. For the monster design: I still get goosebumps when I hear the sounds of Harpys, or Skeletons that draw their swords in a dark forest. Not to mention the dying crys of Zombies... hugh. I don't get such a unique feeling in Elex or other games. (Well, except Jeff in Half Life Alyx....)
I love the original Gothic Games so much. I wish for developers to go back to this game design. Even the simple and 'bad' fighting System contributes to the RPG side of the Game, because it makes your stats more important than your abilities as a Player, something i welcome very much because it makes skillpoints and skaling truly matter.
I can't fully agree with that statement. From my experience I can tell that Gothics Combat System is actually extremly skill-based. However, that fact doesn't fully shine through because it's somewhat clunky.
Gothic combat system is way more skill than stat-based, if you're good enough you can win 1v1 with almost any enemy on level 0 with a heavy branch
@@xyzzy-dv6te This still checks out in Elex to a degree. I was confused at people bitching about combat then realized it's just a bunch of Souls-Simps are are used to insane amounts of invincibility frames on their chars not being used to taking damage if you roll INTO an attack.
If you know the enemy attack animations you can actually make skill and quick reactions count a lot. I always kill the trolls at low level by just moving behind them and spamming attack, never letting them face me. Just need a lot of patience. Also humanoid enemies and everything that can be blocked can be defeated 1vs1 with a dagger or walking stick, because there aren't more than a handful of attack patterns, so you can block and hit with almost 100% success rate after a couple of playthroughs.
When you earned the money in Gothic 1 and 2 you really felt like you earned it.
I'm playing so elex now and really agree with the smaller map point. Gothic and risen I remember running around being familiar enough with the map where I basically remember where everything is and can eventually find my way around by memory. Elex you really need the waypoint
Truly, the quest map marker is the bane of modern RPG gaming. Whenever I reinstall Gothic or its sequel, I instantly know where everything is and where I have to go and what the best ways are to get from point A to point B because I spent countless hours just figuring out quest locations when I first played the games. To this day, there is no open-world game (Dark Souls and Morrowind being notable exceptions) that has managed to achieve the kind of familiarity with your surroundings that Gothic created naturally as part of its game progression. Moreover, both the first game and its sequel were designed with unrivalled attention to detail--not a single stone seems out of place. Yet, behind every nook and cranny, there is often a little story or chest or just a noteworthy landmark to discover. Couple all of this with quests that challenge you to go out and explore, piece by piece, the more dangerous areas of the game world, and what you end up with is the sort of freedom that invites you to explore to satiate your curiosity rather than your sense of completion. So many modern games get this crucial design aspect wrong: They offer vast landscapes with nothing in them and quests that rarely venture beyond "fetch X" and "defeat Y". Gothic is one of those rare examples of a game, in which even meta-gaming aspects (such as doing all faction quests before joining a faction, which would bar you from doing them) feel rewarding rather than tedious owed to world design, character design, story-telling and so on. Really, I could sing praises all day. I'm just saddened that we will probably never see its like again.
You can tell how much effort and time went into making this , great work. (Even tho I never really finished or liked Elex that much.)
27:18 Gorn helping you good joke we all rembember the free mine
Fuck you and your Nazi picture
The part where Gorn beats the player up was actually a bug. I used to make Gorn stand at the entrance of the free mine so it reduced the chances of him slugging me
@@Kevin5279 yeah i also did it every time
@@martinn.6082 i accept it
@@szuflada010 why are you a fascist as a pole? Didn’t they murder millions of your people?
Us Gothic fans _know_ that Piranha Bytes' RPG formula is the best and all we want is more of it.
We got that with Risen 1 and ELEX, but unfortunately for the reasons you have listed in the video, they were not as great.
Thank you for your video.
With Risen 1 but definitely *not* with Elex.
Elex was just another attempt at producing a game with mainstream appeal.
to add to your 3th. point: if the all factions are cool, you just choose what color is more to your liking (AKA: Mass E. 3) in elex they all are garbage in some way, but you have to choose one that is seems the most appealing to your way of thinking. Neither is better to the other, maybe just different but i prefer a flawed faction with dept then flat out good guys.
I wish they would just re-rerelease Gothic 1 and 2 with bugfixes, so that it runs on modern platforms flawlessly. I don't even mind them not updating those game in any other way.
Just play gothic mods ?
There are tons of them
Bugfixes, visual updates and much more
@@mrgreed711 I have tried 2 of them and the default game. Game still crashes at various places on my system.
Yeah ... the random stuttering especially in G2 is annoying. The DX 7 is shit by now and the DX 11 mod is buggy as hell ..sadly :(
i have even seen mods to run gothic 1 and 2 in directX 11, let me tell you how good it looks with high quality textures and with so much grass on the ground
@@Alexandru1996_ here th-cam.com/video/put8Ys4tq6Y/w-d-xo.html the dx 11 client is in the video description. Gothic 2 has one also. In fact there are 2 different dx 11 clients for both games.
That was a really good comparison video! Thank you! I
I really wished PB would actually react to videos like this. Give their input on how or why some things changed or why they wanted to try something different.
well try posting it on their youtube channel, they are very active there and answer alot questions from the comments
20:39 damn thats some god tier timing 😨😨😨💪
Today I learned that at some point, TH-cam reintroduced length limitations on comments, hooray. Really should have made a video response to this, but I've already got this typed out here so hey.
1. Frankly part of the reason for the unimmersive tutorial popups is gonna be to blame on folks such as a certain angry reviewer who just can't get the hint with mechanical subtlety and need things explained to them matter-of-factly or else they'll think the mechanics are just broken.
I think in terms of the size of the world in Elex, I'm not offended that quest markers exist. Generally a character will give you the directions you need, and the objective trackers will be there to fall back on if you struggle. But it does come at odds with the quests in which specific directions are deliberately not given so that you find it while exploring, but the markers will point you right to it on the map. This again is optional - just never turn on the markers - but it's a bit difficult to say that since generally, once a crutch like that is provided, we as players tend to use it even when it diminishes our experience.
2. A recent reply from Jenny on World of Elex states that they aren't making the world any bigger in the next game. Her reply gives me iffy impressions in regards to whether they made a new world or are using the same one.
3. Elex's factions are the weakest they've made mostly because it seemed like they came up with themes for their behavior and philosophies, but put less thought into their history and relationships. Each one felt disconnected from each other and the rest of the world, and were in conflict solely for the sake of conflict. Every faction in Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen had their reasons to be there, while Elex felt like they came up with the factions and made the world accommodate them.
In terms of the thematic pro's and con's, I really don't think the game needs to have the pro's weighted higher. It seems like you dislike the idea that each faction is flawed in their own right, in terms of their laws and philosophies, but I think that could make them more compelling - it's just written poorly in this game. Picking a group to align with in an apocalypse wouldn't believably be an easy choice for anybody with a moral compass - it stands to reason that the most powerful groups have done something pretty terrible to gain that position. This would present a moral gray area for a role-player to decide which group aligns more to their outlook. The problem is, Berserker and Cleric philosophy isn't different enough to make a compelling moral choice. They both believe themselves to have the right ideas to lead the world out of the apocalyptic dark age, but either one has a tendency to quash dissent toward their ideals in a pretty brutal fashion - Berserkers with exile and dangerous work details that tend to get them killed, and Clerics with mind control therapy. Both of them pretty much occupy the same gray area and only differ in their outlook on Elex and technology. Meanwhile the Outlaws are just the obvious assholes in it for themselves, and are essentially just the degenerate cesspit for the people who want the selfish prick role-play.
4. It's obvious that Jax having a backstory was meant to add drama to the story. The Elex withdrawal is meant to provide that same "blank slate" ideal in the sense that he wakes up after an unintentional detox and now has the ability to think for himself, so as a role-player you can still decide how you want him to act. But the drama aspect was just massively let down by the story itself, making it feel like a detraction from the role-playing experience as a whole. Additionally, it's got the really annoying trope where the character knows so much more than the game lets YOU know, so quite often you're acting at odds from how you would if you knew the details of his history from the get-go. The flashbacks are also a really uncomfortable injection of exposition in the laziest and most out-of-place fashion possible.
5. The chapter system in Elex feels completely arbitrary, like it's just there to try and assuage the Gothic fans who lament how chapters weren't used in some of their games. If they excluded the chapter splash screens entirely, it wouldn't feel any different. All that really happens is some companion quests are delayed until later chapters, which already feels arbitrary, but can also just be tied into main story progression and exclude the chapter system entirely, since it's functionally the same.
6. I've actually given PB credit for not relying so heavily on dungeons the way most western RPG's tend to. I don't miss them in the games that don't have them, but it does feel like their major conflict locations are let down by a lack of much to see. The Converters, for example, amount to 3 separate platforms with a bit of loot, usually one hacking minigame, and a few generic enemies. The final area couldn't even be called a dungeon since there's no combat there if you don't want to start it. Fortifications or underground bunkers would make more sense as a "dungeon" analog in a sci-fi setting, but those tend to get very same-y in terms of design since such structures are usually a few chambers and hallways. The kinds of dungeons you see in fantasy RPG's wouldn't make a whole lot of sense here, so I'd prefer they focus more on diverse overworld locations with more verticality to them. A handful of dungeon-like locations, such as mining facilities and military R&D factories, would be interesting, but overuse of them would just feel like bloat. Compare this to Risen, where the entire final chapter took place underground, and the puzzles amounted to finding switches. I enjoyed the Risen dungeons for what they were, but it's too easy for them to end up bloating the end game with them.
7. Animations are sort of a quality of life thing. Since they effectively have six different weapon types (sword, axe, bludgeon, all in 1-and-2 handed varieties), that's already six different weapon animations. I'm not surprised this hasn't been repeated, but having skills provide tangible improvements to things such as swing speed, dodge speed, parry windows, and additional abilities to use would make progression feel worthwhile, and add that dynamic sense of improvement. I know that locking out too many skills alienates new players, since Risen 2 was borderline unplayable until you unlocked both parry and riposte, but this can be used as a world progression mechanic as well, since you don't need those skills to face early-game enemies, but tougher enemies gating later areas will require you to develop them. Unfortunately this brings up another issue with the typical gamer, who in my experience don't do well learning new mechanics long after the game has started.
Part 2:
8. Ultimately I think Gothic 1 and Elex both had one thing in common that I miss in the other games, which is the fact that if you were too weak, you couldn't even harm tougher enemies. Gothic 2 did away with this by having a minimum damage you could inflict, meaning once you mastered the game mechanics, you were theoretically unstoppable and the concept of gating areas with tougher enemies was no longer as valid. I still tend to follow the same progression routes regardless because taking down orcs one-by-one doing only 5 damage a hit was simply exhausting, but I suppose this is also mitigated by having groups of enemies, such as orcs, that all react with each other and still function to prevent you from getting places you shouldn't be.
The lack of feedback from increasing skills definitely detracts from this experience though. I often felt disinterested in leveling up just because it barely mattered, and took ages to get the attributes needed to equip new weapons. Once you did, though, the damage escalation could be pretty dramatic, and progression felt more like it happened in steps rather than in a curve. Strangely, stats did have an effect on damage at some point - as evidenced by the currently false indication on the character screen saying so - but they patched it out of the game. They never really gave a solid answer why.
9. Enemy variety is my biggest gripe in this game. There are like seven monster types and they are just reskinned for each area. You got the Troll type (Forest troll, Ice troll, Cyclops, El Collosaro, etc.); Then there's like a semi-troll type (Rotbeast, Patriarch, etc); there's the Shadowbeast type (Chimera, Nightshade, etc); Raptor type (Raptor, Skex, Desert Devil, etc). Dog type (Jackal, Spine Hound, Crystal Rat); Bug type (Ripper, Spider, Locust); and then Bird type (Scavenger, Ice Bill, etc). In each category they behave exactly the same and seldom even vary much in terms of damage or hit points.
10. Balancing was the key weakness of spells in Gothic 1 and 2. Many of them were highly ineffective compared to others in the same circle or lower, and chargeable spells took so long and so much mana as to be almost equivalent to just spamming 3-4 of the lower spell in the same amount of time. On top of that, auxiliary effects such as stunning enemies with Ball Lightning were pretty inconsistent, and the hidden effects such as vulnerabilities of stone creatures and ice creatures, were hard to quantify in a normal playthrough. I even did a stream where I spawned in numerous creatures to try spells against them and felt none the wiser for it.
You mention spells as a "progression" in Gothic II which I think is a bit misleading, since you don't have to learn the simple spells to unlock better ones - you just skip those until you reach the higher circles, which is what I generally do for reasons stated above. Ultimately I would be most interested in a magic system that allowed/encouraged spell combinations or upgrading basic spells to have new effects. I like the idea of Risen 3 having a single spell with a ranged and melee option, but I would like more diversity than that. Lightning bolt, for example, can become a chain lightning to strike multiple foes, or a bolt from the sky to hit targets that don't have line of sight, or can be charged to use as a stun effect against enemies (maybe the stun ends prematurely on the next hit, so you use it strategically to get some breathing room, for example). We could spitball these ideas all day, but unfortunately Piranha Bytes hasn't shown a great deal of creativity with this lately.
Your breakdown of the faction-specific abilities in Elex show the stark contrast in the different fields of character progression in that game. Most abilities have similar stat requirements, so once you've leveled up a bit you can take just about any path with it, but getting new weapons feels like a monumental effort to get the stats for them, made worse by the fact that enhancing the weapons causes their requirements to jump another mile high.
11. The introduction of permanent party members in Risen 2 is a bit of a baffling addition for Piranha Bytes, and unfortunately serves to cheapen the exploration and progression significantly. It was novel enough in Risen 2 and 3 when the characters made remarks in dialogues with other NPC's and as you explored the world, but that's been reduced so substantially in Elex that I don't even think Jax ever responded in these occasions. So other than that, the companions exist to be meat shields, or just a momentary distraction before they get flattened into the dirt.
Altogether it would be more compelling to return to the concept of NPC's joining your party for specific quests or events, like the companions in Gothic 1 helping you explore the focus sites. Maybe introduce mercenary type NPC's that can follow your orders on any outing of your choosing, giving players an option to challenge themselves by going solo or spending some cash to make the journey easier.
12. The Albs not feeling like a persistent threat has a lot to do with the consequence of a true open world game. It's almost impossible for a free-roaming sandbox game to give you the sense that disaster is imminent, because the world can't move on without you or else you don't feel like you have any freedom after all. This is frankly why Gothic II had the best story and world progression overall - you got to new areas as the plot developed, and returning to old areas after each story milestone felt significantly different, particularly in the sense that the threat had grown - what with orcs and Seekers now crawling all over the once fairly hospitable countryside of Khorinis, and their horde encroaching heavily on the siege circle each time you returned to the valley.
In contrast, the Albs squatted at their converters or in predetermined camps and nothing ever changed. Even between the arbitrary chapters, I don't recall any new spawns or events involving the Albs, except when the story determined some would show up for a quest.
It's funny how TES IV: Oblivion kind of set the tone for the modern open world RPG, and even that did a better job than most games nowadays. As the story progressed, the number of Oblivion gates and dangerous enemies spawning throughout the world actually made it feel like the threat was growing. It only suffered for the fact that each gate just meant another among dozens of copy-paste dungeons, so it can be done better with more conventional encounters or greater enemy diversity.
13. Seems odd to make such a specific theme a point of contention, since the Penal Colony only really existed in Gothic 1, and it was the entire world. Elex is far bigger and broader than that, and I don't think the Valley of the Damned was meant to be an oblique reference to it. It may have inspired it, but it's not like it was surrounded by a magic barrier or populated by different groups and different ideals - you just had the typical bandits (reavers) and some occasional stir-crazy berserkers, but most of the non-hostile NPC's you encountered there were terrified exiles just trying to survive and desperate to return, and most of the territory was dominated by beasts and littered with corpses. It is another case where the open world aspect allows you to come here a lot later without feeling like anything is much of a threat, whereas I attempted a foray into the Valley at an early level and felt genuinely intimidated by everything I encountered.
It was a sadly underutilized area, since it actually had enough atmosphere to give me chills, but not enough happened there. Still, I wouldn't think to compare it to the Penal Colony when the game was intended to cover a much broader and more diverse world than that.
14. The music, unfortunately, is a sad truth, that we just can't expect that anymore. Kai Rosenkranz was a genius when it came to conveying the mood of a given area and could strike the perfect balance of melody and low-fi ambiance (at least when you didn't give him an outrageous budget and a symphony orchestra to work with); and Risen 2-3 were maybe not as unique and deliberate as all that, but at least they came from professional composers who understood the themes and their respective locations where they'd be heard. Elex feels like another casualty of Bjorn Pankratz's vanity projects, since he composed it all himself and surely feels quite proud of it, despite not having a single memorable melody or ever sounding like the mood of the music invoked anything other than "somber sci-fi stuff." Maybe being a project manager and therefore creative director didn't really give him the time he needed to focus on a single discipline like this, but that's his fault for taking it on. Nobody on earth has ever said Piranha Bytes is bloated in manpower, so I think they could stand to hire an in-house composer, or at least contract one on a project-to-project basis. It wouldn't likely be as good as a KaiRo specialty, but it's better than what we got.
4:12 - I think it would have been weird for Jax to ask an NPC how to fight. Jax was, after all, a seasoned commander of the Albs. He wouldn't just forget how to fight, hence why I feel that the developers made use of the pop-up tutorials (at least, when it comes to combat I can see that as a solution). I am not exactly sure how else you can convey organically and non-intrusively information about combat. It would have worked though if the protagonist didn't have any background story in fighting or warfare (like a scholar or a worker).
#12: I feel like that the Albs could've been made far more intimidating if the idea of the converters was far more fleshed out (maybe more grotesque and horrifying to even go inside, maybe the player witnesses what happens to a person as they are shoved into one of the converters). Maybe they could've created Alb raiding parties traveling around Magalan and making them stronger so that Jax would need to avoid them (and you get to witness what happens ot those who were unfortunate to meet them), or show a more harsher view of the Albs' thought process and actions that is far jarring and inhumane. Unfortunately, Elex doesn't do much of that, and the game could've done better. A lot of it has to do with the game telling you what is going on or where and by whom and what instead of just showing it to you. "Show, don''t tell" is a principle in design and writing, and it applies just as much to game design, as it would help to create a more realistic- or natural and organic - experience to the audience, especially when making a believable world and in storytelling.
I'm reading through some of your blogs and I noticed a lot of gothic related ones had their video adaptation. Are you interested in doing so with your Morrowind blog?
It's certainly one that seems worthy of being made into a video, but I honestly don't have any desire to replay Morrowind again to get footage for it. Maybe some day, but not any time soon at least.
He would be burned alive if he made a half an hour video dedicated to Morrowind critique :P
Thank you.
You are probably the best expert on the Gothic games.
Glad to see there's at least one guy overseas that know and appreciate these masterpieces.
love your videos man. Wish more people were interested in gothic
wow, that was a lot and hard to remember the first points xD but i wanna say some stuff. (ok, it was a lot of stuff)
mostly, you are right :D
to their defense...they do say that they are always gonna stay true to themselves and never go online and stuff but yer know, they have to survive, they have to make their games playable with console and by a younger audience. hence the more "easy" und understandable gameplay
about the fighting, i wish you would have mentioned the actual fighting. regarding that topic, i actually love and prefer gothic 3. it offers you so many different ways of attacking at will, with only your mouse. lmb, lmb hold, rmb, lmb while blocking, lmb hold while blocking and all that with different fighting styles, dual wielding, 1 handed with shield, 2 handed...in risen they started with their generic combo where you just left click, left click, left click and occasionally block with right click. i really miss the possibility to decide what you wanna do and how you wanna strike a certain enemy at a certain point of time in the battle. it offered so much tactics to fights, especially in gothic 3.
the guilds in elex, you could say, for the first time you really dont know who to join xD
you could say it was TOO easy in gothic: the mercs. because they were the cool guys. and then there were the conservatives and the religious xD
i just went full zerk because i still miss and prefer gothic and the fantasy theme. im not soooo much a fan of scifi/modern weapons and everything.
i kinda agree on the map being TOO big. it can become overwhelming and even if the world is still very memorable compared to games like skyrim or...greedfall (ROFL), it can become too much and, thats where you are right, too much of collecting junk.
now, to a lot of people, more is obviously better and that also pretty much leads to more playtime which also justifies the price and everything.
new games today have huge maps and people want huge maps because in an open world exploration RPG, huge maps mean more gameplay.
but just like in gothic 3, you could see that it was partly just strechted. which is again fair because it might seem even more realistic. there isnt a building, a ruin, a chest every 5 meters in real world. large fields of nothing are a thing. i think that elex kinda hit the right spot in regards of stretching the map.
but what i would really like to see is MORE USEFUL STUFF to find! a thing that could have always improved piranha bytes' games would have been more equipment. more weapons, more armor parts like helmets (there are like 2 or 3 in gothic 3 and risen games?) and also elex doesnt provide much.
they turned up the armor game with pants and stuff. but it was really not very much. and i understand, the main breast armor should be tied to the factions but even then there was stuff like the minecrawler armor in gothic which was a super cool thing and i just wished there was more unique equipment to find, mix and match. i always get so hyped about stuff like the helmet of the paladin in G3 because that kind of stuff is SOOO RARE!
in PB games, over the whole cause of the game, you are probably changing weapons like 5-10 times or so. and i understand, it might be ridiculous to change your weapon for every 5 dps upgrade but it can also be a question of style, a question of gameplay (weapon range) and extra stats like elemental damage. there is so much that could be added that you have in other games and sure, they wanna stay a bit on the ground with the fancy fantasy stuff but you already have magic poles in gothic that provide a lot of fancy stats. they added sockets tho, which was a cool move.
such a huge world also provides a lot of space for more unique equipment.
great thorough thinking, very nice essey. All this made Gothic really one kind of a game
very cool video, i like how you made every one of your points
first time watching your videos and i absolutely love it, sadly i always played games because i wanted to be better then others but seeing videos like this make me wish i could just let myself fall into those single player worlds and fully enjoy them but most of the time i try i get bored because i dont know what im doing :) still love the vids tho!!
Always happy when people are still talking about my favorite game :) ... Got a question though for the international audience : I'm a German native and one thing I absolutely love about gothic are the dialogues which have many references to how people in the region I live in actually talk... And I'd believe it's hard to recreate that in a different language... Is the quality of the dialogues still good ( authentic) in English or whatever other language?
Speaking of polish dubbing it's astonishing, it might be the reason why Gothic got such spectacular popularity in Poland, about other dubbings I have heard russian one is also pretty good, english one seems bland to me but someone native in it should stand on it.
That is a very in depth and accurate description of pro's of Gothic and places where Elex is lacking. Among many discussions and a decent number of TH-cam videos trying to encapsulate the essence of Gothic and why it was such a phenomenal and outstanding franchise to this day, yours does job the best. You also did something no other you tuber did so well- described exactly what elements all PB games released since Gothic are lacking. It could probably be explained by their fear of creating games appealing to broader player base used to more "regular" rpg's while trying to keep their original fan base at the same time. Playing Elex, overall very good and immersive game, much more immersive than "regular" non PB- Gothic originating games, I enjoyed so many memories from Gothic coming back and the feel of Gothic series alive in Elex, present everywhere from gameplay mechanics through character progression to such things like some sound effects here and there and partly, music (yes it's nowhere as good as in Gothic but it's still decent and climate building, resemblung Gothic in many ways). What I did find lacking in Elex that I remember from Gothic I couldn't really place or define until I stumbled upon this video. Many thanks! I hope we will find some of those long missing features in soon to be released Elex 2 and Gothic remake, which is coming.
the best analysis about the difference between the two games I have ever seen
This is a perfect analysis!
Especially the importance of music in the Gothic games. Kai is missing...:(
Thank you for that!
Maybe it's just me, but I literally never get tired of hearing you talk about Gothic 1 and 2, and I've never even played either game, lmao
Totally agreed.
I wanted to like Elex and in a way I kind of did, but there's really no lasting emotional attachment to the game. I don't care about the characters, I don't care about the factions, I don't care about the locations and even the combat never really stuck with me.
Flashback to Gothic 1, one of my favorite games of all time, and I'm just tripping over incredibly memorable and noteworthy things, both in the game world and in the game's design. The minimalistic UI, the atmosphere absolutely setting the theme, the recurring NPCs who are not only likable but actively helpful (STARK contrast to 99% of how most devs design their companion characters, making me feel like a babysitter for people with emotional problems), the feeling of progression, both in the events of each chapter and in my improving abilities and better gear...
I still can't believe some people were defending that poor excuse of a 'remake' of Gothic 1...
They need to merge with Deck 13 to make a competitor to CD Projekt Red and From Software.
Elex is great at narrative/story open world and The Surge has great combat.
I believe they're both in Germany or at least Europe.
Yeah. I thought about something like that a lot. A RPG world like Gothic with an action based fighting system like Dark Souls. That would be awesome. Dragons Dogma was the closest one that come close to this. And it was good.
Pete they both from germany and they are actually pretty close. They run the yt channel DEVPLAY, they discuss development related things there, like four or five studios. Sadly its in german
I completely agree with you and Deck13 has even assisted other developers in the past as a service (for smaller german indie studies). Sadly, that does not fit in the way PB "likes to run things" and there is nothing in the world that will change that.
They both lack the creativity to make actually good games.
Them merging would do nothing.
is it worth playing? kinda need to scratch that gothic like itch, but having trouble finding my game :D
Gothic 2 had very interesting weapon skills vs. strength mechanic. Increasing str made you hit harder but weapon skill made you have a higher chance to land a hit as in a critical hit so it was up to you to decide which you would go for have a higher risk but bigger rewarding hit or just have a consistent heavy hit but not as rewarding as a critical strike build
An old ZenGin Engine(Gothic1,2) was better than new Genome Engine(Gothic3, Ryzen, Elex) in my opinion. If you skilled enough you can climb everywhere, it gives feeling of absolute freedom. That's why to use unreal engine for gothic remake is a bad idea.
kai rosenkranz is one of the best game music composers hands down. This year i had an experience while playing Apex Legends on a friends account. He had his music turned of and the entire game felt of. I mean Apex isnt nearly as emmersive as gothic and it doesnt try to be, but what i found interesting is that even though apex doesnt live of its music it changes the entire gameplay experience
When I recently played gothic 2 again, I was pretty impressed with how well it still held up. The magic was a bit boring, and combat in general would benefit from being more souls like, but the rpg elements and immersion were top notch. I particularly liked that everyone was a cutthroat asshole trying to fuck you over in some way or another. It really sells that the npcs are characters rather than just set dressing
Alright, I never played any game mentioned in this video and I will do so now. I'll test if the quality of the old Gothic games is really that good or just nostalgically biased.
And, what do you think?
@@arnvonsalzburg5033 I couldn't even launch the game haha
14:08 that was the biggest weakness for me. I knew Gothic, so I thought that are all "Chapter 1" quests. So I did them all and was amazed about what comes next. What comes next is Chapter 2, chapter 3, chapter 4, one after another and it felt like I was rushing through and did not got any more quest to do. Cant describe how disappointed I felt. Still a pretty good game tho, but that didn't felt right.
gothic 1 i playef like 10 times and gothic 2 night of the raven i played for 15 times...i basically know almost every quest where to get it and where to complete it...i still remember some combinations from chests to get nice equipment from the very beggining in Gothic 1
I love the music, especially from Gothic 2.
I also did enjoy Gothic 3 alot and i love the atmosphere from Varant.
Unfortunatly my computer can't run ELEX too well so i can't say if i agree about the music...but i did watch enough videos about it and i saw someone playing it in person to know that the combat system really is very bad. I think it is worse then Risen games as well.
The most strategical fights i had in Gothic 1 and 2 where you need to time the hits perfectly and move alot, otherwise you die..
Gothic 3 was too easy but with the comunity patch things got much better. Maybe the comunity can do something to repair ELEX too, cause i think it looks good and it only needs some polishing.
Looking forward to ELEX 2, maybe i will have a decent computer by then :)
love your videos my dude.
Sheesh, it's been so long since I played Gothic... literally played those when they came out. It was always fun to figure out a way to beat a tough monster early on, since it could actually be rewarding. Not just with an XP boost, but also the valuable loot they had.
Gothic 3... well, I haven't played the fan-made patch for it, but when it was released, it was riddled with problems, ranging from memory leaks steadily filling your RAM up until even the best PC had to restart the game to continue running it, to a too big world with little direction and a severe lack of polish overall. I still remember how clunky and stiff the melee attack animations looked compared to its predecessors... Overall, it was a slog to play back then.
Tyrian3k u rly should try it with all those patches out now. The release was rly bad, the publisher jowood was in huge trouble and needed the cash, so they forced them to throw it out All their games they released when they was about to be bankrupt was full with bugs. They had the gothic licence for a certain amount of time so they made gothic arcania, gothic 4 but it was made from a different studio and it was sooooo bad. Noone even rly count gothic arcania as gothic. Jowood went bankrupt after this and this days PB have their license back, or well, nordic games now, cuz thay bought the studio
Gothic 1 and 2 are way more superior games than Elex and I couldn’t agree more. But I still love elex.
good video! Enjoyed it very much!
It seems like the word about the best RPG game is slowly spreading, makes me really happy to see it beeing appreciated all over the world. Took some time but gothic just got to be admired and remembered.
Apart from my 2 friends who have played the Gothic games, going online is truly the only place I can go to see fellow lovers of that series. Anyone I ask in my daily life has no idea what Gothic is. I will never forget my first play of Gothic. I HATED IT; but then I gave it another chance and the rest is history.
this is a great breakdown
gone are the days of gems like Gothic
For anyone who loves Gothic i recommend you to check out "Gothic 2 Returning 2.0 Alternative Balance". This free Mod made by the community for the players revamps Gothic 2 as whole and adds hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay, storylines, new guilds, weapons, new chapters, new worlds, that fit in the game as if Gothic 2 was created with them in the first place. During quarantine this reignited my passion for the game. Probably the best mod ever made for one of the most legendary gems in RPG - history. Give it a try and trust me you wont regret it!
Though this video is already a month old, I would like to mention another major point:
The disability to outrun enemies
With sprinting in Gothic 3 or Elex, or even a Jetpack, allowing you to vertically flee from stronger enemies, the dread emitted from strong monster got considerably diminished. Why should I fear a pack of wolfs that I can outrun? In Gothic 1 & 2 when you are still in the beginning and see a Wolf charging at you, you honestly feel the fear because you know it will be difficult and you have to zig zag in order to maybe outrun the wolf. That was the case for most enemies, like Wargs, Orcs, Snappers etc. In Elex on the other hand, I had no problem visiting every place on the map from the very beginning using only the sprint mechanics and my jet pack. Note that I am not against a sprinting mechanics in general, but it shouldn't make it that easy to outrun enemies.
I agree strongly with those points, especially with the world size. I feel like home on Khorinis island... And I never learned Elex world, nor I want get back to try it again
Also with factions, when I played Gothic and Gothic II I always felt that factions are powerful and will help me find my place... In Elex it was the case only on meta level.
Yes equipment and skills from factions were huge boost, but lore wise I felt like they are below and are waiting for me to save them from the start... And it was like that.
Factions in Elex were not family and friend, but temporary allies, on the same level as me or even below
In Gothics factions were full of people I looked up to and felt "I hope I will get their power and skills one day"
Gothic 1 and more so Gothic 2 world may appear small when you look at the map but it's actually pretty big with many caves and lots of plant life especially in G2 that makes it appear much bigger as in having more detail. Hostile monsters also make the world seem bigger and more mysterious since you couldn't get past them easily to see what was on that other side.
It is just madness that Gothic 1 & 2 are after 20 years still the best RPGs ever created.
Well done and well explained video
Ive attempted to play other piranha bytes games, in order, and found them sooo difficult to get into being spoiled by AAA games that are polished. The jankkk in these games... Ive stayed up all day and night every other day for a week now because of elex, havnt played an rpg this good in years! Its caused me to go back and fully mod all other PB games and buy the ones i didnt already own. The little guys will forever get my business now. After i finish elex 1 and 2 ill hop into gothic again and join the cult following i know it deserves. Great video, even if i had to mute it during spoiler sections X D i subbed. : ) have you played any of Spiders games? They are back on my radar, being AA jank rpgs X D
i turned those tutorial popup's in elex off as they constantly got me killed, popup about drinking a health potion, got in the way of drinking health potion and oops your dead reload.
Man, it's 2020 and we get a new Gothic video. =)
Now I want to play Gothic I and II again.
Yeah Nr 3 is so true. I never felt loyal to them, because almost every character is an asshole and you have to make asshole-decisions in your quests or you can't become a member of any faction. You really have to play as an asshole to fight your way to the top.
I replayed both G1 and Elex recently, during the lockdown, and this video is spot on. I may disagree on the lack of intimidating enemies in Elex, I think Elex does a better job at this than even Gothic. Seeing a raptor early game or a troll later on is always p. tense (but yeah, the Albs are kindda meh).
Btw I strongly recommend the overhaul mod (on Nexus) for Elex, it makes the game twice as good. Vanilla was p. poorly balanced, this mod fixes a lot of stuff. There's a lot of work and thought behind it. A must have.
I am playing Elex for the first time right now. I just saw your video about beginner's tips to Elex and it was really helpful. But I must say, your analysis and comparison with the first 2 Gothic games is thoroughly well done. As a person who has played the first 2 gothics several times, I can surely say that each point you made was well thought out and carefully researched. I truly am bewildered how a studio like PB came up with complete masterpieces for their first 2 games but somehow lost that design philosophy and weren't able to recapture the magic for almost 2 decades now. Although I'm enjoying Elex, I think the part of the problem is that gamers these days want to be held by their hand instead of taking the more engaging route of discovering things themselves. Even game journalists seem to want these immersion breaking "video-gamey" elements in the games they review. Anyway thanks for the review. You truly possess a good understanding of RPGs and this is quite evident when I watch the videos on this channel.
I think that professional game reviewers tend to place more value on things like convenience and ease of play due to the nature of playing and reviewing games being part of their jobs. I would guess that, when the end goal of playing a video game is to be able to get a review out in a timely manner so that you can move on to the next one and cash the next paycheck, it's easy to appreciate games with shallower learning curves and greater hand-holding that help you get through the game more easily. Whereas one person might see a lack of quest markers and map icons telling you where to go and how to do things at all times as a positive for immersion and self-driven exploration, a professional reviewer might see those as impediments to completing the game, and might not appreciate having to spend more time figuring things out for themselves, which could be reflected in their review score or final assessment.
In essence, I suspect that a certain portion of mainstream professional reviewers tend to appreciate games that are easy to play and easy to review because it makes their jobs easier, not necessarily because it makes them better games. And since those are the reviews that get the most exposure to the general public, those types of reviewers could be influencing public opinion and making your typical, "average" gamer assign similar value to convenience and ease of play, even though they're playing games under completely different circumstances and for different reasons. This is all pure speculation on my part, of course -- I could be wrong or might be reading too much into things, but it seems plausible to me that this might be the case for at least some people.
@@TheNocturnalRambler
Yep come to think of it, it does make sense. Looking forward to your next video 👍
What texturepack do you use for Gothic 1.
I'm not sure that I ever installed any separate texture packs for either G1 or G2. Obviously the ones I have in the footage are much higher resolution than normal, but I think they were somehow rolled into one of the other patches/mods, most likely the DX11 mod. The only things I had running for G1 was the 1.08k patch, Player Kit, System Pack, and DX11.
Very true. Even after I played Gothic 1, the orcs were still as scary and powerful as I remembered that in Gothic 2 even after brushing against them I knew how hard they were to kill that the situation with the templars holed up in the rundown Old Camp, I can actually feel how helpless they felt. They too like me was just humans with slightly better armor they would be cornered by an orc army. If one orc was that hard to kill about 100 of them would be impossible to fight. They also emitted this otherworldly battle cry that let you know that you're fcked. Even with the constant saving you can do in Gothic series you still grip onto your heart fighting any monster or foe.
Also another thing that might make Elex feel less fun is that your character is an Alb soldier so basically he's already a super soldier. Any time they make your character a chosen one, a super soldier, a super powerful demi-god it really takes away the immersion. The point of playing in a game is that you're powerless and you are slowly making your steps exploring this world as a baby not as a super powered macho warrior. In Gothic 2 you never ventured out into the world outside the colony so it was a whole new experience to top it off your nameless hero loses all his powers, skills so yeah you were back to traversing the land as a weakling. It's true a good character and game can be made as you being supwer powerful or have some hidden power but it has to be hidden and you only tap into it and learn to control it later. Until then you get your ass kicked 1000 times over and over, the fight onlyi ends when you give up but long as you k eep getting back up and fighting then that is something worth playing.
Risen does the right approach too you end up on an uncharted island as a complete weakling shipwrecked, cold, hungry and penniless. Pick up a stick and start fighting.
I strongly subscribe to your point of the orcs being very intimidating enemies. When i was a young teen i learned all the exact routes one has to take to not aggro the orcs in the Valley of Mines in G2. I jumped in my seat every time i heard them come after me.
This analysis is so much on point .
small atmospheric world unfortunately doesnt sell as well as "Gameworld 1.3x the size of skyrim!"
I wish we could see how a modern Gothic would look like with the modern graphics and possibilities they now have through engine etc.
Ofc the soul, atmosphere, music where unmatched in the old gothic which they would have to recapture.
nice vid! i wonder, have you played the german versions of gothic 1+2? the voice actors are mostly the same for both games but you can hear that they were not quite comfortable with their englisch pronunciation cause german is there native language. you will need to get the german version from somewhere, because u cant just switch the audio/text files. i played both and its a complete different experience. you dont even need to know german to hear the better and more comfortable acting. after all these years the german gaming community still says no game had such a good voice acting in german than these two games.
Gothic had those "oh shit" moments, when you encountered huge beasts in the forests and started running asap because you simply knew just by looking at them and hearing them growl at you, that they will slaughter you.
I really like your videos, always amazing to see non-german content about those gems. But i "kind of" disagree on the fact that the factions are different, at all in fact, in Elex. Maybe i am crazy, but outlaws are swamp camp and don't care at all. Clerics are kind of Old Camp with neat tech and they try to work with the world they inhabit. Berserks are like the new camp, they actively want to destroy the world and reshape it. This is no way in detail, but overall, this is what it is to me :D :)
Why? Why did you kill the cleanbot in the converter??
Playing Gothic 1 and 2 is like coming home to your best friends from childhood. Nowadays rpgs are huge empty worlds and you develop no empathy for their npcs and problems.
I personally like true open world aspect of Elex.
Writing is not that good as in gothic 1 for sure. Lot of unexplained not logical things are in the story, like you mentioned: your father, investigate the guy who shot your plane etc... Kinda feels like "cheap writing" where they needed something to continue the story so they added their first not overthought ideas.
Also i didnt like that there isnt a single safe road to reach any city from Goliet. It question a base principle how they can trade, if the roads are not even safe. Ive even followed traders from Goliet and they went into Cyclopses and died... So clearly there wasnt even intention to make a relative safe road.
Balancing also an issue lot of skills are useless.
All enemies have random generated weapons (even companions) which is lame.
But apart from these issues the game is great. I love playing it.
You put up such a great question. Are we even allowed to start our adventure with the other 2 factions? Because if you travel there level 1 any moving enemy 1 shots you. Idiotic game.
@@GoznerPeter You can travel any city If you know how to. But you cant fight anything. You need to sprint and run away from every enemy which aggro you.
1. Run to the Domed city on the road left side of the converter. Doomed city teleport activate Ignadon aswell.
2. Fort is in a desert so you can see and avoid almost any encounter.
-Third advice dont invest attributes in anything else but weapon stats, until you get rank 1 weapon.
@@-.sy.5367 Thanks but nah. Not putting my hands on that hot garbage ever again. Belongs to the trash can alongside Gothic 4 Arcania or whats the name. Gothic 1-3 or Risen 1 I would gladly play again.
Point 2. A smaller, more intimate game world. I felt like this was exactly what Witcher 3 needed. The reason I loved Witcher 3 as much as I did, was because it felt similar to Gothic 2 in some instances. But unlike Gothic 2, Witcher 3 felt too busy and large, to the point it was a bit overwhelming and felt somewhat like a chore as soon as you deviated from the main story quests. Furthermore, as beautiful as the Witcher 3 game world is, it's downright impossible to know it as well as the world of Gothic 1 or 2. In Witcher 3, you simply cannot find your way in the world without the "video game-y" elements like the compass or the waypoints. You'll just get lost in the beautiful but same-y looking environment devoid of any significant landmarks.
Gothic 1 and 2 show how games should be made. Smaller but more important things encased in a manageable manner.
Like how the human mind stores information that is important or noteworthy. Larger game worlds become a blur and abundant.
I believe that psychology is an important part of making a game that will fit/please us humans.
In Elex i didnt want to join the 3 factions but return to the albs xD
excellent video
Lots of good points :) Many of which I agree with to varying degrees.
Can't really say that I agree with the point about the factions though. For one thing, I think having up- and downsides in Elex's factions makes them more believable and drives home the idea that it's not just "good guys" vs "bad guys" vs "religious zealots", but different societies emerging from - sometimes disparate, yes - understandings of Elex and its place in the world.
Plus, Gothic 1 and 2's factions also had these negative aspects, even if they weren't always displayed as prominently. The Old Camp exploited the diggers, the New Camp condoned conflict both within the camp (Lefty and the rice farmers) and without (bandits attacking convoys and provoking violent conflict with the Old Camp), the Swamp Camp with the religious zealotry and blindness towards them worshipping a demon. In Gothic 2, the Militia who intimidate and rob farmers, the Paladins who aren't there to protect the people from the Orcs, but explicitly to mine ore to win the war with, the Mercenaries whose primary motivation is money (and Lee having his own agende of making it to the mainland to take care of the King), and the fire mages who arguably have the least objectionable negative side as they are very concerned with money (beyond that there are the more implied rather than displayed trappings of a Church and their ability to go after anything they want to call heresy - Serpentes asking you to kill Pedro if you're a mercenary is evidence of that).
I agree with the point about chapter progression; the chapter structure in Elex seems like its a remnant from previous games, but it has been gutted of all meaning. I very much enjoyed doing everything the main quest asked me to, but in my playthroughs I ended up doing most of it before talking to the Separatists, so it's like I'm just going in to a government office to do a bunch of paperwork I've been putting off :P
I don't necessarily "need" a chapter structure in a big game like this (as long as there's plenty to discover and do), but it would have been good to have the game at least push you more towards meeting the separatists and advancing the main quest. Downside of having a big open world I guess, can't always make the player do what you want, when you want x).
Sorry for rambling; I very much enjoyed the video \m/
Thank you for the comment, I generally agree with your assessment of the factions in both games, however, to be clear: the modus operandi for the factions in Elex is far, FAR more wicked/villainous than anything the factions were doing in Gothic 1 or 2. There are downsides to the factions in G1 and G2, yes, but they're nowhere near as extreme as the ones in Elex, and there are generally more compelling ideological reasons to join them. Ultimately, with each faction in G1 and G2, I feel like the pros outweigh the cons whereas in Elex the cons outweigh (or at least equal) the pros. You can spin plenty of negative qualities into the various factions from Gothic if you try hard enough, but none of them will ever be as gravely sinister as supporting a genocidal megalomaniac who literally tries to nuke an entire faction out of existence (Outlaws), or supporting a highly oppressive, draconian society that punishes free thought and expression with death (Berserkers), or supporting a phony, clandestine religion that forcibly recruits people into their ranks by turning them into mind-controlled subjects (Clerics).
@@TheNocturnalRambler agreed, the factions in Elex are definitely more defined by their negatives as opposed to their positives compared to Gothic. It's just that I felt that in your video it came across as if the Gothic factions had little or no downsides at all. It's true that they're not as extreme as in Elex, although I'd argue that they haven't been portrayed as consequently as the could have been.