My next question is this... Gary claimed that Vail kept putting harder and bigger hurdles to meet in order to get their event set up. Obviously, they didnt want WAM any more. Did UTMB/IRONMAN have the same conditions/hurdles to overcome? If so, how did they overcome those? Somehow, I doubt that it was just as difficult for them as for WAM. Somebody at Vail must be a big UTMB fan.
@@FilmMyRun right. So thus the supposed near impossibity of meeting those conditions. It also appeared that once he would meet one set of conditions they would come back with another with a tighter deadline. At least thats my understanding. I am not blaming UTMB, I think this all started with someone at Vail who thought they could do better than WAM and get Whistler on the world ultra calendar. Interesting also that there's been crickets from Vail and the only clarification we got was from UTMB.
@@mikeknedlik The difference is Gary said he was dealing with a Vail Resorts employee (who has since been fired), whilst the gentleman in this audio mentioned he never contacted Vail Resorts, but his contacts at Whistler municipality (possibly friends?). They are 2 different organisations. The municipality in Whistler is long-standing, whereas Vail Resorts has only owned the resort of Whistler Blackcomb since 2016. Everything about Vail Resorts is a pain when you are a customer. Ask any skier in Whistler and they'll have a negative response towards Vail Resorts. Ultimately, it's fairly obvious to assume UTMB would not have had the same hurdles.
@@cherries4life387 trust me I know the difference between Whistler and Vail. Stopped going to Whistler in the winter right after they took over. Vail is the problem, not Whistler municipality.
I think part of the problem with this whole situation is the effects of big money on running in general. As running (both trail and road) has increased in popularity, increasing amounts of hype have been thrown at the more expensive side of things. Just look at the amount of TH-cam content generated around the mega shoes, the major marathons and events like UTMB. It's basically free advertising for companies that don't need it, for stuff that many runners simply couldn't afford. It's that influence in general that needs tackling. I love watching ultra content but I would rather watch people doing lots of different events than lots of people doing UTMB.
I (think I) see your point exactly. UTMB and Ironman are great products. However, monopolizations and lack of diversity is probably rather detrimental to the (community and grassroots) spirit of these sports.
I urge everyone to listen to or watch the current Freetrail Podcast which consists of a more long form interview with Gary Robbins, and then make up your minds if it's really credible what Ironman are claiming here. There is no reason for me to believe anything they say more than what Gary is telling.
Understand that Vail Resorts is not a skiing or mountain recreation company. It is a real estate development company. They buy up ski resorts around the world so they can develop large scale real estate projects. In the process, they drive local populations out because the speculation drives real estate prices up to where the people who have always lived there can no longer afford to do so. Anything they do with the resort experience is all in the service of driving up real estate values. They are not a friend to any mountain sports community.
There's one principal in this story who have not commented, unless I missed something, and that's the Vail Co. With all respect to Gary but when he 'took his hands off of' the Whistler event then an opportunity for another event by anyone else was 'open'. Again, not meaning to sound 'commercial' or 'cold'. But it'd be good if Vail commented now.
For Keats to describe the squamish race as just a 50 km race shows how clueless he is. For someone how has been running all the trails around whistler for years to not know about the squamish race is kind of ridiculous. It is a 2 day race with a 50 mile and a 50 km the second day. Bottom line, he sounds full of crap.
Easy with that blanket statement. I’m a triathlete and a trail runner, just did 50m, training for a 100k and finishing next year with a 100m. Just because someone does one doesn’t mean they don’t do both and can’t have knowledge of both. And for the record, I have been a vocal supporter of Gary’s
Not really followed this and have no investment in it, so from a neutral perspective, it just isn't credible that there was no surreptitious UTMB groundwork preceding Robbin's public declaration of withdrawal.
Imagine if Walmart bought out the Boston Marathon. Now, in order to qualify for the Boston Marathon, you can only do so by racing in another run owned by Walmart. What used to be your favourite local race is now owned by Walmart. It's 3x as expensive, and now really sucks. That's what UTMB/Ironman is doing to trail running around the world. Don't be fooled by those little rocks, friends.
While this dispute has created quite a furor, I think it is resonating because there is a trail running culture (at least in North America) that is (or was) based upon grass roots community organizing. Races were typically fund raisers for local nonprofits or the natural areas where they were held. That has been changing in the last 10 years, as many "for profit" organizers have gotten into the game, but most of these organizers have been fellow runners (or teams of runners) who decided to try to make a living off the sport they love. The races still had the feel of local organic races. If they didn't, the did not succeed. Enter UTMB. At first, UTMB partnered with races in North America to provide a system to allow runners to gain entry into UTMB. Many races balked at having to pay a small fee to be a part of the UTMB point system, but this model still leveraged what was existing in North America and what had been supported by runners in North America--e.g. races with a grass roots feel, organized by fellow runners or the community. Now enter Ironman and with its triathlon model. Establish UTMB controlled and/or branded races to provide the exclusive feeder system to the UTMB World Championship. There is an arrogance (and lets face it world dominance feel) to this model. Given the relatively few number of ultramarathons that most runners run in a given year, runners will either be chasing stones OR running the the grass roots races. Thus, the real question is whether there are enough runners to go around. I suspect there are not. Many small races are already struggling. So, in my opinion, this entire dispute represents an inflection point for the sport--corporate run races vs. local grass roots races. I know which side I will choose.
Interesting. So this is the same person who helped IMC "move" after the Penticton group was completely cut out and asked for loads of extra cash or they'd lose it. That's later than my IMC time, but after hearing from local Penticton friends how it happened (yes - 2nd hand), I thought that this sounded like a really similar situation in exactly the same place. I definitely hadn't realized it was the same IM person involved in both cases!
Thanks for getting into looking at both sides, I'm sure there's a lot more going on but we'll never know. I have no interest in the large-scale events such as those that UTMB are known for (I'm neutral on the debate FWIW), it's one of the reasons I quit road races as the "major" events were getting too large for me in terms of participation numbers and scale, and also ever more expensive to enter (the notion of running being a cheap and affordable pastime seems to be long gone).
Still confused about what went on and when etc but what I can definitely say is there are many many trail runners who were feeling a little sceptical about this organisation who are now very much closer to making their mind up. Not something UTMB wanted at all.
The one common thread here is that Vail are the bad guys. They appear to have led Gary on while negotiating with UTMB/Ironman, and also throwing up obstacles so that he would still be *somewhat* good to go in the event the larger corporate contacts didn't follow through, as opposed to just saying "Hey, we have a larger event, we won't be able to host yours simultaneously."
The problem I have is Ironman itself. I've worked at Ironman events which are the polar opposite to trail running/ultras. They are a completely different animal. Ultras are family, community. We help out each other, we take care of the trail, we are very thoughtful about taking care of our trash, thoughtful towards other runners. Ironman is nothing like that. It's each competitor for themselves. They feel entitled to do what they want because they've paid so much money. I can't really blame them; it's not like poor people can even do triathlons. But we can run. Local trail races aren't expensive. UTMB/Ironman events are VERY expensive and cater to a crowd that expects people to do things for them. Yeah, that's not what trail races are about.
That all sounds nice but this interview doesn't really tell a different story. You summed it up nicely that they should have known better and that they should have contacted gary much, much earlier. Are we going to let them get away with this one? I sure hope not.
To be fair, as far as I am aware, Gary has never accused UTMB of talking to Vail before February 2023. It's the rest of us that have come up with that idea inferred from Gary's blog post. I just don't think we will ever know for sure what went on. It may well just have been Vail being as difficult as they appear to have been in the previous 2 years. Sounds like they just didn't get on well with Gary.
@@FilmMyRun I see your point. They should have still known better and maybe contacted gary directly, which they admitedly didn't. So it doesn't even matter if there was colusion before february. Just the fact that they swooped in like that is enough for me to dislike the organization.
I would not believe no one in Ironman/UTMB had contact vail. Ironman and UTMB had tried to monopolize the trail running - they first push away long time ITRA. borrow their entire performance index system and change the name to UTMB Index. And force Japan UTMF to change their name and claiming the word “Ultra Trail” was their sole use. This is completely outrages
I think this is an attempt by UTMB to damage control the situation. Saying “oh, we had no idea about Gary being ghosted by vail. We are just trying to fill a void” these statements of denial makes them look more guilty to me.
Really good that you did this Stephen. There are two sides to the story and it's felt to me that a lot of suppositions have been made. The N American trail running community (ar least the more vociferous ones) are clearly not happy but i doubt this will have much/any resonance over here in Europe (i see UTS is already sold out). I've a love/hate relationship with UTMB , not keen on all the commercialism (esp in Chamonix during the week) but out on the trails its a huge celebration of trail running and the community, i don't think anything else comes close.
You all don’t have to boycott the race. But only local community refuse to do volunteer for UTMB. But only accept paid job to work for UTMB. They are so focus in money making, why you do works for them as volunteer? Ask Vail to pay their staff to work for the trail race and let see
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Wherever the truth may be, I just think the whole situation is overall sad. The one thing obviously ridiculous is the way that north americans immediately start to feel hurt and betrayed without knowing any kind of context and start to organise boycots and protests. While it has been just a few weeks since every american runner felt like the king of UTMB after Walmsley’s success, everyone was riding a coattail and making money and content on UTMB’s events. Once you play and glory the game with the giants you can’t turn around and act haughty. Btw thanks for the video, perfect work as always!
As a North American I can say that UTMB is not really compatible with American trail culture. Which has always been about small, grass roots, community based events. Most American runners look at UTMB with a degree of skepticism, especially since the Ironman partnership. I was excited when Walmsly won UTMB this year but that was mainly due to the level of competition and beating the Euros on their home turf. I don’t see why UTMB needs to be the defacto long course “world championship.” If the best athlete decide to go somewhere else then they will be irrelevant. We’ve seen it happen to other events such as Leadville, Wasatch 100, and Vermont 100. Still important races but winning one of them is not longer as significant as it was even a decade ago.
Thanks for sharing the other side of the story. I was nodding along until you mentioned how well organized UTMB is. Clearly you have never tried to crew around Mont Blanc. 😂 No cars allowed and the bus system is a disgrace. My partner nearly missed me at Les Contamines only because he was planning to be there 90 min before my ETA. Everyone else on his bus missed their runners. Also I live in a ski resort where we have a long standing, tradition rich ultra race. Two years ago it was bought by UTMB and now the entry costs is outrageous. It’s nearly impossible to get a spot unless you have a utmb index and is planning to do the 20km. 35, 50, 100 km are all sold out in minutes. It makes me sad that even as a utmb fan, I can no longer get a spot to race in my own home town.
Great video. They don't own Western States but as a partner has some infuence. Bandera 100K lost its golden tickets this year and they were given to Grindstone which is owned by UTMB. It is not just a coincidence. Bandera had them for over 10 years and attracted a lot of pros. This years Grindstone had very few popular pros compared to previous Bandera races.
UTMB/Ironman is a gigantic corporate monster. They turn over $750 million each year. They dont do that by playing fair or being nice. Do not believe a word they say
Vail and Ironman is a match made in greed heaven. They didn’t come in until after Vail made the stipulations above and beyond any trail race, and here is the saviour of trail running. Come on. I do believe Vail is the worst of all of this, but let’s not pretend Ironman/UTMB was just looking to fill the void to the trail community. And we scheduled to work with Squamish 50, hahaha. Please. Patronizing garbage from an organization notoriously known for corp greed and lack of care for grassroots. I still stand with Gary and local race directors who are the backbone of the trail community, it is what separates these events from just being races and chasing stones, but they are event bringing us together and celebrating the trail community.
Thanks for this report. It goes to show that there are always two sides to a story and probably, even more hidden away in the appendix. I guess we, as the outsiders, will never know the full story and we will continue to react in whatever way seems fit with the limits of the information we have. Personally, I love watching the UTMB week live-streams and will avidly continue to do so. Will in ever enter a UTMB event? Possibly, but only because it’s a race I want to run rather than any politics surrounding it. Will I still enter small events? Yes, definitely but only because it’s a race I want to run. Whatever your opinion, just try not to let it ruin your love for the sport; keep spreading the love for trail-running. As D-Bo says “Trail running can and will save the world.”
It’s hard to not let it ruin your enjoyment when they come into your town and ruin your local race, which is happening more quietly in the background. They don’t understand the community and the culture that comes in with them is garbage. I experienced this earlier this year at a newly taken over UTMB race. I’d love to race in Chamonix too, but count me out until they show that they can be positive members of the trail community. The negativity running through the community is on them
I will be waiting to see if more evidence comes out before I make any rash future race decisions. Vail was pushing Gary out, was Ironman aware of it? Inmho that is the key question.
I just don't think we'll ever know that for sure. I'm done with this story now and I won't be doing any more digging. It is what it is and we all move on. As I said in the interview, I think they've learned a lesson. That means they'll either be even more underhand in the future, or they will try harder to accommodate and include the trail running community in their decisions.
@@FilmMyRun I think you should do more digging! I like the content and your neutral position will allow you to talk to a lot of people high up in the "food chain"
Did no one in their big organization have the foresight to know how this would look? Did no one have the transparency to run this by Gary to obtain his blessings before making the move? There is no need to do things in secret if everything is truly above board.
I honestly don’t think they did. But at least they darn well do now! I would very very surprised if they are as underhand where UTMB are concerned in the future. But then again a few comments suggest I am naive. Maybe so. But I like to be an optimist.
"We did not expect this kind of reaction from the community." I mean WTF? How well do you know the people you are organizing events for and with?! How much do you think and care about things beyond number of races and number of racers and eventually money?! I have absolutely no reason to believe Vail Resorts and UTMB/Iron Man. It is nice that they have people like this -- quite sincere and nice people tbh -- to clean up their mess but I would bet a lot of money on a UTMB event in Whistler being agreed on looong before February 2023.
Thanks for making this video Stephen. I understand the mob instinct to react negatively to UTMB (and it could be justified), but it is important to let each side say its piece. It's certainly still plausible that Ironman / UTMB have done the dirty here. However, it's also possible that it was Vale Resorts who did the dirty. It's also possible too that Gary shot himself in the foot when dealing with Vale. Personally, I don't know which is true, but videos like this one certainly help us keep and open mind and perhaps keep our "pack-hunting instincts" in check a little.
Has Vale Resorts said anything? They seem to be suspiciously quiet. I think it's important to hear from them in this matter because they ultimately made the final decision who holds the race, but everyone seems to be ready to blame UTMB.
Despite what they say, I can't help but think that they are lurking behind the change of venue for the Salomon Skyline next year... UTMB Lochaber? Unless anyone knows different
This really appears to be a severe over-reation without the facts! I do not blame UTMB for seeing an opportunity to maintain a great event and grow their business and I would have been more upset if they had passed on this opportunity. There are many assumptions being made and many missing pieces; I have watched many videos on this topic and no one seems to know what these hurdles were that caused the original cancellation?? Possible expensive insurance requirements; possible full liability waivers, who knows but is seems like the original cancellation was due to a business decision; to blame UTMB is wrong at many different levels.
Thank you very much for your comment and thoughts on this. It’s a difficult one. Some see it as yet another indication that ITMB is in the march to take over the world of ultra running!!
Here's my veiws. The timing is bad, I would almost look at whistler being the bad guys here - let's push Gary out and tempt utmb in instead? But for me personally, I won't be boycotting UTMB, end of the day most of their races are bucket list races in thier own right and leads to the ultimate bucket list race out there (for most). I still plan on doing 2 utmb events in the next 2 years and hopfully qualify for chamonix afterwards. Now saying that I still support local and smaller races much more that utmb (££ reasons) but utmb seems a brilliant set-up, and I want to still experience it. Lastly I'm from Ireland, so if this happend in Ireland then maybe i would think differently but I don't even think this will effect utmb at all, bit of bad press yes but like everything else on the Internet, it's only a big deal until the next story comes along. Thanks for keeping us informed!
I don’t buy the “mistakes were made” argument. They are a half billion dollar company. So what, they just don’t do due diligence when they open a race in an area with an existing race culture? They just don’t contact Gary and even say, “hey we know you were holding a race here before, any advice for working with Vail” ? It’s complete nonsense. They can’t be “hugely experienced at races” and be that sloppy.
Have you seen the mess governments make running a country? If you're in the UK you'll be reading all about the Government's COVID fiasco in the news. Huge organisations are still staffed by individuals and also teams of those individuals who can make stupid, irrational, inept, uninformed or thoughtless decisions. Of course, I agree, it could also have been completely deliberate. BUT, would they have done this if they had realised what the reaction would be? Thousands of people calling them out and suggesting we boycott UTMB? Arguably the only positive they have got out of this is that they have definitely managed to get some advertising for their new race!!
I think that’s a lazy line of reasoning. Your argument that we should give them the benefit of the doubt because of their experience and the idea that this was all lazy oversight can’t both be true. If this was a mistake in thinking through the consequences of their actions, due diligence, etc, I don’t see any cause to trust their experience in putting on races that benefit our community.
@@chrispeterson66 I’m not saying that you should think one way or the other. But I’m prepared to accept that they say they only made contact after Gary had said goodbye to WAM. But that doesn’t really make it much better anyway. It was still a pretty stupid thing to do even if they planned it! Yes they got publicity for the race but at what cost. I don’t think the price they have paid justifies the gain. Seems pretty dumb to me. In terms of putting on events, in France the UTMB week is amazing and they have many years experience organising it. In terms of elsewhere, there will be different teams on the ground in different areas all over the world. Some will be experienced some not. Some will do a great job, others less so.
Disagree that UTMB is a net positive for ultra running and trail running. They are just another example of the corporatisation of running and exercise. And very disappointed that HOKA (UTMB sponsor) has sat on its hands in all of this.
I think the argument would be that overall UTMB has helped and inspired countless people to discover trail running, helping the sport to grow. Of course with growth comes money and greed and big business. Not saying it’s right but this happens when something becomes successful.
@FilmMyRun The UTMB model is pretty much along the lines of secure the "rights" to events. Market them like crazy to create demand. Drive up entry fees. And rake in big money. That's the world of the 21st Century. But it doesn't make it fair and it doesn't make it right and it doesn't justify their "big kid on the block" behaviour. I have been running marathons since 1991 (32 years) and it saddens me when I see the corporatisation of our sport.
What a bunch of UTMB BS! Corporate greed at its finest. They just think this will blow over with no consequences! Hint: They will not do things differently in fact they will probably get more aggressive.
What you are seeing here has happened in many sports and ultimately the consumer can and will determine the outcome. In the 80s every running race in the UK was organised through running clubs. Local organisers, local volunteers, local competitors, 50 pence to enter. Surplus finds went back to the club/volunteers. Then private companies got involved to increase numbers and make money, entry fees went from 50 pence for a 5 mile to £25 for a 10k today. The same thing will and is happening in trail running. The author of these videos competes in UTMB and those £25 10k races and his primary motive is views on his channel. Everyone is free to make up their own mind.
Lots of corporate talk; although Mr. Ironman runs Whistler trails regularly (urban trails or alpine trails?) and says to know the local trail running community, he doesn’t know what Squamish 50 really is. Squamish 50 is not Squamish 50K. Nobody refers to Squamish 50 as 50K. NOBODY!! It also has a 23K, a 50M (most popular) and the 50/50, which is running 50K and 50M on consecutive days. Over 1500 runners take part to the weekend plus 300 volunteers. All these races sell out in hours. This is a goal race for most participant, so I doubt anyone would use this race for preparation to a longer race. It was UTMB interest to choose a date as far away as possible from Squamish 50, not the other way around. Or maybe Mr. Ironman is just downplaying Squamish… Sorry, I don’t buy what has been said in this interview. 5 days after the facts, enough time to decide the right words to say, and the day after Whistler Associations and other IM people say the same things.
Corporate double speak. "Lessons to be learned" "We would have done it differently" "We'll take this and learn from it and grow" Come on....I've heard this nonsense a thousand times. It's always the same.
We can't be certain, for now, if there were some UTMB/Ironman moves before WAM leaving, but right now it is looking like the usual North American trail "purists" overreaction. And I'm no fan of UTMB, I really disliked what they did turning the UTWT to a list of qualifier events to the UTMB festival, instead of a best of the year circuit where 3 or 4 results would count. I guess they frowned upon the circuit being decided by en epic performance at Diagonale des Fous some years.
That guy messed up and now is spinning a pr bs story. The resort wouldn’t have let Gary walk if Ironman didn’t offer first. The resort cares about money. This guy was just give his few minutes of air time to spew his propaganda. “Make us all better”, how many Ironman staffers did it take to come up with that line.
This just shows that there are two sides to each story. There are plenty of potential for all trail companies out there and small companies should do better if they want runners to go to them.
Hmm. I was willing to give Gary the benefit of the doubt but I did feel his story was one sided. Hearing the audio from Ironman and Gary’s ridiculous response on Freetrail blows that out of the water. He had a beef with Vail. He packed up his toys and left. Ironman swooped in. End of.
Ironman Whistler ran from 2010 to 2019. They must have had many close relationships in the Whistler area, let’s not be naive to that. I want to believe Ironman’s side of the story but am finding that there is not enough evidence to back it up yet, therefore I judge neither side and hope that there will be a silver lining in all of this. Happy running,
@@yurickaregger7118 When Dylan asks Gary to confirm if UTMB has reached out to him since Gary just says something to effect of "yes, but I've been too busy". He also mentions "hearing things", or something to the effect of that (sorry for the paraphrase, didn't want to go through the whole thing again). Again, I'm not taking anyone's side, I just feel like we're not getting the full story from either party. I know as a human when we feel hard done by it's easy to lash out and demonize. I've never met Gary personally, but I have friends that have described him as difficult. Watch one of his FKT videos where he lashes out at pacers/crew and this doesn't feel like a stretch.
My next question is this... Gary claimed that Vail kept putting harder and bigger hurdles to meet in order to get their event set up. Obviously, they didnt want WAM any more. Did UTMB/IRONMAN have the same conditions/hurdles to overcome? If so, how did they overcome those? Somehow, I doubt that it was just as difficult for them as for WAM. Somebody at Vail must be a big UTMB fan.
Gary was happy to meet the safety expectations but it was the timescale which seems to have been the main problem.
@@FilmMyRun right. So thus the supposed near impossibity of meeting those conditions. It also appeared that once he would meet one set of conditions they would come back with another with a tighter deadline. At least thats my understanding. I am not blaming UTMB, I think this all started with someone at Vail who thought they could do better than WAM and get Whistler on the world ultra calendar. Interesting also that there's been crickets from Vail and the only clarification we got was from UTMB.
@@mikeknedlik The difference is Gary said he was dealing with a Vail Resorts employee (who has since been fired), whilst the gentleman in this audio mentioned he never contacted Vail Resorts, but his contacts at Whistler municipality (possibly friends?). They are 2 different organisations. The municipality in Whistler is long-standing, whereas Vail Resorts has only owned the resort of Whistler Blackcomb since 2016. Everything about Vail Resorts is a pain when you are a customer. Ask any skier in Whistler and they'll have a negative response towards Vail Resorts. Ultimately, it's fairly obvious to assume UTMB would not have had the same hurdles.
@@cherries4life387 trust me I know the difference between Whistler and Vail. Stopped going to Whistler in the winter right after they took over. Vail is the problem, not Whistler municipality.
It feels like the question marks should sit around Vail Resorts, not Gary nor really UTMB
I think part of the problem with this whole situation is the effects of big money on running in general. As running (both trail and road) has increased in popularity, increasing amounts of hype have been thrown at the more expensive side of things. Just look at the amount of TH-cam content generated around the mega shoes, the major marathons and events like UTMB. It's basically free advertising for companies that don't need it, for stuff that many runners simply couldn't afford. It's that influence in general that needs tackling. I love watching ultra content but I would rather watch people doing lots of different events than lots of people doing UTMB.
I would certainly rather be running than making these type of videos!! haha
I (think I) see your point exactly. UTMB and Ironman are great products. However, monopolizations and lack of diversity is probably rather detrimental to the (community and grassroots) spirit of these sports.
Are UTMB becoming the Walmart of the running community?
I urge everyone to listen to or watch the current Freetrail Podcast which consists of a more long form interview with Gary Robbins, and then make up your minds if it's really credible what Ironman are claiming here. There is no reason for me to believe anything they say more than what Gary is telling.
Someone else has mentioned this interview, so I will definitely check it out. Thanks
Understand that Vail Resorts is not a skiing or mountain recreation company. It is a real estate development company. They buy up ski resorts around the world so they can develop large scale real estate projects. In the process, they drive local populations out because the speculation drives real estate prices up to where the people who have always lived there can no longer afford to do so. Anything they do with the resort experience is all in the service of driving up real estate values. They are not a friend to any mountain sports community.
Good insight, thank you
There's one principal in this story who have not commented, unless I missed something, and that's the Vail Co. With all respect to Gary but when he 'took his hands off of' the Whistler event then an opportunity for another event by anyone else was 'open'. Again, not meaning to sound 'commercial' or 'cold'. But it'd be good if Vail commented now.
For Keats to describe the squamish race as just a 50 km race shows how clueless he is. For someone how has been running all the trails around whistler for years to not know about the squamish race is kind of ridiculous. It is a 2 day race with a 50 mile and a 50 km the second day. Bottom line, he sounds full of crap.
To be fair to Keats, I think he does know that. The whole event is simply called the Squamish 50, not the 50/50 as I thought.
@@FilmMyRun 50 as in 50mile since it's the main event.
He is with Ironman, so he probably is clueless. Triathletes don't know anything about our sport.
Easy with that blanket statement. I’m a triathlete and a trail runner, just did 50m, training for a 100k and finishing next year with a 100m. Just because someone does one doesn’t mean they don’t do both and can’t have knowledge of both. And for the record, I have been a vocal supporter of Gary’s
This confirms to me 100% that Gary got screwed over.
UTMB will be going after Gary's other events soon too, no doubt. Big business corporate greed at its worst.
We definitely need to hear from Vail Resorts as that seems to be where the problem/conflict lies.
Not really followed this and have no investment in it, so from a neutral perspective, it just isn't credible that there was no surreptitious UTMB groundwork preceding Robbin's public declaration of withdrawal.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure. But I'm inclined to believe Keats.
@@FilmMyRun Keats just said that he didn't talk to vail... Ironman/utmb is much bigger than keats...
Imagine if Walmart bought out the Boston Marathon. Now, in order to qualify for the Boston Marathon, you can only do so by racing in another run owned by Walmart. What used to be your favourite local race is now owned by Walmart. It's 3x as expensive, and now really sucks.
That's what UTMB/Ironman is doing to trail running around the world. Don't be fooled by those little rocks, friends.
Accurate!
Gary's SQ50 is more expensive than Whistler UTMB. We all love support local. I just want to brought up that local is not necessary cheaper.
@@XuDongWu No it isn't. They are both $195.00 for the 50k distance.
Great video! Nice to hear the other side, though I am not fond of UTMB anymore, unless they fix this situation with Gary.
While this dispute has created quite a furor, I think it is resonating because there is a trail running culture (at least in North America) that is (or was) based upon grass roots community organizing. Races were typically fund raisers for local nonprofits or the natural areas where they were held. That has been changing in the last 10 years, as many "for profit" organizers have gotten into the game, but most of these organizers have been fellow runners (or teams of runners) who decided to try to make a living off the sport they love. The races still had the feel of local organic races. If they didn't, the did not succeed.
Enter UTMB. At first, UTMB partnered with races in North America to provide a system to allow runners to gain entry into UTMB. Many races balked at having to pay a small fee to be a part of the UTMB point system, but this model still leveraged what was existing in North America and what had been supported by runners in North America--e.g. races with a grass roots feel, organized by fellow runners or the community. Now enter Ironman and with its triathlon model. Establish UTMB controlled and/or branded races to provide the exclusive feeder system to the UTMB World Championship. There is an arrogance (and lets face it world dominance feel) to this model. Given the relatively few number of ultramarathons that most runners run in a given year, runners will either be chasing stones OR running the the grass roots races.
Thus, the real question is whether there are enough runners to go around. I suspect there are not. Many small races are already struggling. So, in my opinion, this entire dispute represents an inflection point for the sport--corporate run races vs. local grass roots races. I know which side I will choose.
Interesting. So this is the same person who helped IMC "move" after the Penticton group was completely cut out and asked for loads of extra cash or they'd lose it. That's later than my IMC time, but after hearing from local Penticton friends how it happened (yes - 2nd hand), I thought that this sounded like a really similar situation in exactly the same place. I definitely hadn't realized it was the same IM person involved in both cases!
Interesting to hear. Can you point me in any direction for more information on this please?
Can you try to have an interview with Gary ?
Nope. UTMB is just another big money corporate. They are just good at messaging and are now using their brand and their power to destroy a competitor.
Thanks for getting into looking at both sides, I'm sure there's a lot more going on but we'll never know. I have no interest in the large-scale events such as those that UTMB are known for (I'm neutral on the debate FWIW), it's one of the reasons I quit road races as the "major" events were getting too large for me in terms of participation numbers and scale, and also ever more expensive to enter (the notion of running being a cheap and affordable pastime seems to be long gone).
Still confused about what went on and when etc but what I can definitely say is there are many many trail runners who were feeling a little sceptical about this organisation who are now very much closer to making their mind up. Not something UTMB wanted at all.
The one common thread here is that Vail are the bad guys. They appear to have led Gary on while negotiating with UTMB/Ironman, and also throwing up obstacles so that he would still be *somewhat* good to go in the event the larger corporate contacts didn't follow through, as opposed to just saying "Hey, we have a larger event, we won't be able to host yours simultaneously."
This does sound very likely
The problem I have is Ironman itself. I've worked at Ironman events which are the polar opposite to trail running/ultras. They are a completely different animal. Ultras are family, community. We help out each other, we take care of the trail, we are very thoughtful about taking care of our trash, thoughtful towards other runners. Ironman is nothing like that. It's each competitor for themselves. They feel entitled to do what they want because they've paid so much money. I can't really blame them; it's not like poor people can even do triathlons. But we can run. Local trail races aren't expensive. UTMB/Ironman events are VERY expensive and cater to a crowd that expects people to do things for them. Yeah, that's not what trail races are about.
That all sounds nice but this interview doesn't really tell a different story. You summed it up nicely that they should have known better and that they should have contacted gary much, much earlier. Are we going to let them get away with this one? I sure hope not.
To be fair, as far as I am aware, Gary has never accused UTMB of talking to Vail before February 2023. It's the rest of us that have come up with that idea inferred from Gary's blog post. I just don't think we will ever know for sure what went on. It may well just have been Vail being as difficult as they appear to have been in the previous 2 years. Sounds like they just didn't get on well with Gary.
@@FilmMyRun I see your point. They should have still known better and maybe contacted gary directly, which they admitedly didn't. So it doesn't even matter if there was colusion before february. Just the fact that they swooped in like that is enough for me to dislike the organization.
I would not believe no one in Ironman/UTMB had contact vail. Ironman and UTMB had tried to monopolize the trail running - they first push away long time ITRA. borrow their entire performance index system and change the name to UTMB Index. And force Japan UTMF to change their name and claiming the word “Ultra Trail” was their sole use. This is completely outrages
I think this is an attempt by UTMB to damage control the situation. Saying “oh, we had no idea about Gary being ghosted by vail. We are just trying to fill a void” these statements of denial makes them look more guilty to me.
it sound fishy in my opinion.......... They have a better bargain power that a local running race director
They are certainly able to fight their corner. But that doesn't necessarily mean they lying.
Really good that you did this Stephen. There are two sides to the story and it's felt to me that a lot of suppositions have been made. The N American trail running community (ar least the more vociferous ones) are clearly not happy but i doubt this will have much/any resonance over here in Europe (i see UTS is already sold out). I've a love/hate relationship with UTMB , not keen on all the commercialism (esp in Chamonix during the week) but out on the trails its a huge celebration of trail running and the community, i don't think anything else comes close.
You all don’t have to boycott the race. But only local community refuse to do volunteer for UTMB. But only accept paid job to work for UTMB. They are so focus in money making, why you do works for them as volunteer? Ask Vail to pay their staff to work for the trail race and let see
Wherever the truth may be, I just think the whole situation is overall sad. The one thing obviously ridiculous is the way that north americans immediately start to feel hurt and betrayed without knowing any kind of context and start to organise boycots and protests. While it has been just a few weeks since every american runner felt like the king of UTMB after Walmsley’s success, everyone was riding a coattail and making money and content on UTMB’s events. Once you play and glory the game with the giants you can’t turn around and act haughty. Btw thanks for the video, perfect work as always!
As a North American I can say that UTMB is not really compatible with American trail culture. Which has always been about small, grass roots, community based events. Most American runners look at UTMB with a degree of skepticism, especially since the Ironman partnership.
I was excited when Walmsly won UTMB this year but that was mainly due to the level of competition and beating the Euros on their home turf. I don’t see why UTMB needs to be the defacto long course “world championship.” If the best athlete decide to go somewhere else then they will be irrelevant.
We’ve seen it happen to other events such as Leadville, Wasatch 100, and Vermont 100. Still important races but winning one of them is not longer as significant as it was even a decade ago.
Thanks for sharing the other side of the story. I was nodding along until you mentioned how well organized UTMB is. Clearly you have never tried to crew around Mont Blanc. 😂 No cars allowed and the bus system is a disgrace. My partner nearly missed me at Les Contamines only because he was planning to be there 90 min before my ETA. Everyone else on his bus missed their runners.
Also I live in a ski resort where we have a long standing, tradition rich ultra race. Two years ago it was bought by UTMB and now the entry costs is outrageous. It’s nearly impossible to get a spot unless you have a utmb index and is planning to do the 20km. 35, 50, 100 km are all sold out in minutes. It makes me sad that even as a utmb fan, I can no longer get a spot to race in my own home town.
Great video. They don't own Western States but as a partner has some infuence. Bandera 100K lost its golden tickets this year and they were given to Grindstone which is owned by UTMB. It is not just a coincidence. Bandera had them for over 10 years and attracted a lot of pros. This years Grindstone had very few popular pros compared to previous Bandera races.
UTMB/Ironman is a gigantic corporate monster. They turn over $750 million each year. They dont do that by playing fair or being nice. Do not believe a word they say
Vail and Ironman is a match made in greed heaven.
They didn’t come in until after Vail made the stipulations above and beyond any trail race, and here is the saviour of trail running. Come on. I do believe Vail is the worst of all of this, but let’s not pretend Ironman/UTMB was just looking to fill the void to the trail community. And we scheduled to work with Squamish 50, hahaha. Please. Patronizing garbage from an organization notoriously known for corp greed and lack of care for grassroots. I still stand with Gary and local race directors who are the backbone of the trail community, it is what separates these events from just being races and chasing stones, but they are event bringing us together and celebrating the trail community.
Thanks for this report. It goes to show that there are always two sides to a story and probably, even more hidden away in the appendix. I guess we, as the outsiders, will never know the full story and we will continue to react in whatever way seems fit with the limits of the information we have.
Personally, I love watching the UTMB week live-streams and will avidly continue to do so. Will in ever enter a UTMB event? Possibly, but only because it’s a race I want to run rather than any politics surrounding it. Will I still enter small events? Yes, definitely but only because it’s a race I want to run. Whatever your opinion, just try not to let it ruin your love for the sport; keep spreading the love for trail-running. As D-Bo says “Trail running can and will save the world.”
It’s hard to not let it ruin your enjoyment when they come into your town and ruin your local race, which is happening more quietly in the background. They don’t understand the community and the culture that comes in with them is garbage.
I experienced this earlier this year at a newly taken over UTMB race. I’d love to race in Chamonix too, but count me out until they show that they can be positive members of the trail community. The negativity running through the community is on them
Boycott UTMB. That's the only option. I've already decided to do only local races next year. No UTMB events.
I will be waiting to see if more evidence comes out before I make any rash future race decisions. Vail was pushing Gary out, was Ironman aware of it? Inmho that is the key question.
Same
I just don't think we'll ever know that for sure. I'm done with this story now and I won't be doing any more digging. It is what it is and we all move on. As I said in the interview, I think they've learned a lesson. That means they'll either be even more underhand in the future, or they will try harder to accommodate and include the trail running community in their decisions.
@@FilmMyRun I think you should do more digging! I like the content and your neutral position will allow you to talk to a lot of people high up in the "food chain"
That’s a great plan, except that UTMB bought my local race, so… ?
Did no one in their big organization have the foresight to know how this would look? Did no one have the transparency to run this by Gary to obtain his blessings before making the move? There is no need to do things in secret if everything is truly above board.
I honestly don’t think they did. But at least they darn well do now! I would very very surprised if they are as underhand where UTMB are concerned in the future. But then again a few comments suggest I am naive. Maybe so. But I like to be an optimist.
"We did not expect this kind of reaction from the community." I mean WTF? How well do you know the people you are organizing events for and with?! How much do you think and care about things beyond number of races and number of racers and eventually money?! I have absolutely no reason to believe Vail Resorts and UTMB/Iron Man. It is nice that they have people like this -- quite sincere and nice people tbh -- to clean up their mess but I would bet a lot of money on a UTMB event in Whistler being agreed on looong before February 2023.
Agreed. Pretty short sighted and odd that they didn’t see it coming
Nah still team Gary, doesn't sort anything
Thanks for making this video Stephen. I understand the mob instinct to react negatively to UTMB (and it could be justified), but it is important to let each side say its piece.
It's certainly still plausible that Ironman / UTMB have done the dirty here. However, it's also possible that it was Vale Resorts who did the dirty. It's also possible too that Gary shot himself in the foot when dealing with Vale. Personally, I don't know which is true, but videos like this one certainly help us keep and open mind and perhaps keep our "pack-hunting instincts" in check a little.
Has Vale Resorts said anything? They seem to be suspiciously quiet. I think it's important to hear from them in this matter because they ultimately made the final decision who holds the race, but everyone seems to be ready to blame UTMB.
Why would Vail resorts be so ANTI WAM and then so suddenly be so PRO UTMB!!? That hasn't been answered.
Despite what they say, I can't help but think that they are lurking behind the change of venue for the Salomon Skyline next year... UTMB Lochaber? Unless anyone knows different
It’s intriguing isn’t it?!!
This really appears to be a severe over-reation without the facts! I do not blame UTMB for seeing an opportunity to maintain a great event and grow their business and I would have been more upset if they had passed on this opportunity. There are many assumptions being made and many missing pieces; I have watched many videos on this topic and no one seems to know what these hurdles were that caused the original cancellation?? Possible expensive insurance requirements; possible full liability waivers, who knows but is seems like the original cancellation was due to a business decision; to blame UTMB is wrong at many different levels.
Thank you very much for your comment and thoughts on this. It’s a difficult one. Some see it as yet another indication that ITMB is in the march to take over the world of ultra running!!
Here's my veiws.
The timing is bad, I would almost look at whistler being the bad guys here - let's push Gary out and tempt utmb in instead?
But for me personally, I won't be boycotting UTMB, end of the day most of their races are bucket list races in thier own right and leads to the ultimate bucket list race out there (for most). I still plan on doing 2 utmb events in the next 2 years and hopfully qualify for chamonix afterwards.
Now saying that I still support local and smaller races much more that utmb (££ reasons) but utmb seems a brilliant set-up, and I want to still experience it.
Lastly I'm from Ireland, so if this happend in Ireland then maybe i would think differently but I don't even think this will effect utmb at all, bit of bad press yes but like everything else on the Internet, it's only a big deal until the next story comes along.
Thanks for keeping us informed!
I don’t buy the “mistakes were made” argument. They are a half billion dollar company. So what, they just don’t do due diligence when they open a race in an area with an existing race culture? They just don’t contact Gary and even say, “hey we know you were holding a race here before, any advice for working with Vail” ? It’s complete nonsense. They can’t be “hugely experienced at races” and be that sloppy.
Have you seen the mess governments make running a country? If you're in the UK you'll be reading all about the Government's COVID fiasco in the news. Huge organisations are still staffed by individuals and also teams of those individuals who can make stupid, irrational, inept, uninformed or thoughtless decisions. Of course, I agree, it could also have been completely deliberate. BUT, would they have done this if they had realised what the reaction would be? Thousands of people calling them out and suggesting we boycott UTMB? Arguably the only positive they have got out of this is that they have definitely managed to get some advertising for their new race!!
I think that’s a lazy line of reasoning. Your argument that we should give them the benefit of the doubt because of their experience and the idea that this was all lazy oversight can’t both be true. If this was a
mistake in thinking through the consequences of their actions, due diligence, etc, I don’t see any cause to trust their experience in putting on races that benefit our community.
@@chrispeterson66 I’m not saying that you should think one way or the other. But I’m prepared to accept that they say they only made contact after Gary had said goodbye to WAM. But that doesn’t really make it much better anyway. It was still a pretty stupid thing to do even if they planned it! Yes they got publicity for the race but at what cost. I don’t think the price they have paid justifies the gain. Seems pretty dumb to me.
In terms of putting on events, in France the UTMB week is amazing and they have many years experience organising it. In terms of elsewhere, there will be different teams on the ground in different areas all over the world. Some will be experienced some not. Some will do a great job, others less so.
how strange for a random bloke in the uk to be messaged by another random town in the middle of nowhere ca, usa. strange daze
Disagree that UTMB is a net positive for ultra running and trail running. They are just another example of the corporatisation of running and exercise.
And very disappointed that HOKA (UTMB sponsor) has sat on its hands in all of this.
I think the argument would be that overall UTMB has helped and inspired countless people to discover trail running, helping the sport to grow. Of course with growth comes money and greed and big business. Not saying it’s right but this happens when something becomes successful.
@FilmMyRun The UTMB model is pretty much along the lines of secure the "rights" to events. Market them like crazy to create demand. Drive up entry fees. And rake in big money. That's the world of the 21st Century.
But it doesn't make it fair and it doesn't make it right and it doesn't justify their "big kid on the block" behaviour.
I have been running marathons since 1991 (32 years) and it saddens me when I see the corporatisation of our sport.
What a bunch of UTMB BS!
Corporate greed at its finest.
They just think this will blow over with no consequences!
Hint: They will not do things differently in fact they will probably get more aggressive.
Probably but we can hope and we can choose to be eternal optimists!!
Very interesting :)
What you are seeing here has happened in many sports and ultimately the consumer can and will determine the outcome. In the 80s every running race in the UK was organised through running clubs. Local organisers, local volunteers, local competitors, 50 pence to enter. Surplus finds went back to the club/volunteers. Then private companies got involved to increase numbers and make money, entry fees went from 50 pence for a 5 mile to £25 for a 10k today. The same thing will and is happening in trail running. The author of these videos competes in UTMB and those £25 10k races and his primary motive is views on his channel. Everyone is free to make up their own mind.
Lots of corporate talk; although Mr. Ironman runs Whistler trails regularly (urban trails or alpine trails?) and says to know the local trail running community, he doesn’t know what Squamish 50 really is. Squamish 50 is not Squamish 50K. Nobody refers to Squamish 50 as 50K. NOBODY!! It also has a 23K, a 50M (most popular) and the 50/50, which is running 50K and 50M on consecutive days. Over 1500 runners take part to the weekend plus 300 volunteers. All these races sell out in hours. This is a goal race for most participant, so I doubt anyone would use this race for preparation to a longer race. It was UTMB interest to choose a date as far away as possible from Squamish 50, not the other way around. Or maybe Mr. Ironman is just downplaying Squamish… Sorry, I don’t buy what has been said in this interview. 5 days after the facts, enough time to decide the right words to say, and the day after Whistler Associations and other IM people say the same things.
Corporate double speak.
"Lessons to be learned"
"We would have done it differently"
"We'll take this and learn from it and grow"
Come on....I've heard this nonsense a thousand times. It's always the same.
We can't be certain, for now, if there were some UTMB/Ironman moves before WAM leaving, but right now it is looking like the usual North American trail "purists" overreaction.
And I'm no fan of UTMB, I really disliked what they did turning the UTWT to a list of qualifier events to the UTMB festival, instead of a best of the year circuit where 3 or 4 results would count. I guess they frowned upon the circuit being decided by en epic performance at Diagonale des Fous some years.
There was certainly a knee jerk reaction. How much is justified is arguable.
That guy messed up and now is spinning a pr bs story. The resort wouldn’t have let Gary walk if Ironman didn’t offer first. The resort cares about money. This guy was just give his few minutes of air time to spew his propaganda. “Make us all better”, how many Ironman staffers did it take to come up with that line.
This just shows that there are two sides to each story. There are plenty of potential for all trail companies out there and small companies should do better if they want runners to go to them.
Maybe they just didn’t like dealing with Gary and the race he set up? Shouldn’t businesses have a right to work with who they choose?
Hmm. I was willing to give Gary the benefit of the doubt but I did feel his story was one sided. Hearing the audio from Ironman and Gary’s ridiculous response on Freetrail blows that out of the water. He had a beef with Vail. He packed up his toys and left. Ironman swooped in. End of.
I’ve not heard the Freetrail clip. I’ll go find it
Ironman Whistler ran from 2010 to 2019. They must have had many close relationships in the Whistler area, let’s not be naive to that. I want to believe Ironman’s side of the story but am finding that there is not enough evidence to back it up yet, therefore I judge neither side and hope that there will be a silver lining in all of this. Happy running,
What about garys response was ridiculous?
@@yurickaregger7118yes , I have listened to that podcast and thought he was quite measured.
@@yurickaregger7118 When Dylan asks Gary to confirm if UTMB has reached out to him since Gary just says something to effect of "yes, but I've been too busy". He also mentions "hearing things", or something to the effect of that (sorry for the paraphrase, didn't want to go through the whole thing again). Again, I'm not taking anyone's side, I just feel like we're not getting the full story from either party. I know as a human when we feel hard done by it's easy to lash out and demonize. I've never met Gary personally, but I have friends that have described him as difficult. Watch one of his FKT videos where he lashes out at pacers/crew and this doesn't feel like a stretch.