Another great tale from our criminal history, thanks Steve. Great detective work in catching rhe two very unsavoury characters who got what they deserved.
Hi Steve, I've just listened to my 1st 'Hangman's Record' of this pair of rather nasty character's living off other peoples endeavours & have enjoyed your presentation style & the story told. I've just stuck the kettle on & will be moving on to my 2nd episode. Thanks for your hard work & I'll wish you the best of luck for the future, Cheers!
@@russell-di8js cheers mate, hope you stick around and enjoy the back catalogue. I usually post a new video at 7pm GMT Monday. If you subscribe to the channel you will get notification and can join in the live chat as the video premieres
This is a truly excellent series. I would request editions devoted to the George Kelly Cameo Cinema murders case (1949-1950) and the James Hanratty case (1961-1962). The Alfred Burns and Edward Devlin case (1951-1952) also deserves to be covered.
It never ceases to astonish me, how many appalling crimes were committed for a pitifully small amount of money - in fact, LESS than could been earned with a couple of hours of casual labour.
The World and Britain was a very different place then. Firstly, the World in general was a much more violent place. Therefore, peoples’ so-termed ‘frames of reference’ were very different. It was far more the norm for people to encounter all forms of violence in their daily lives than it is today. This ranged from a closer proximity to death of not just humans (life-expectancy and infant mortality rates were far from what they are today), to killing their own animals for food, through to domestic violence being far more common and accepted, right through to the other end of the extreme such as these men would have experienced on the battlefields of WW1 which will have brutalised them. Secondly, the was no significant welfare state as we recognise it today. If you didn’t have money to survive, the abject poverty that this spelt and your fate would have been unimaginable to most of us today. Yes, the World was far more brutal then than it is today.
Another excellent episode in a superb series. In this case the two young killers seemed so nonchalant about their fate, joking after sentence was passed. It’s hard to understand how anyone who had been told they would soon hang could be so relaxed about it.
Thanks Steve for another tale of justice being served. Ellis was handed the pair of cutthroats like a lady going to a buy-one and receive two bargain store...! Have a great week!
Hi Steve, really enjoyed this episode, as always. What a pair of heartless cowards. Thank you. Have you thought about doing an episode on someone from my home city of Nottingham - 'Nurse' Dorothea Waddingham? I believe the house she lived in on Beech Avenue is still there.
Steve excellent mate. The research you do on these tales must take you forever. Amazing isn't it that two men would be willing to throw their lives away for the equivalent for £50 each???? It was well known that the penalty for Murder was fixed by law, as it is now......but we still see murders today for nothing......There can be little doubt of the guilt of these two...Justice Served....Have you ever covered the Ruth Ellis case? Best Regards Geoff
Two cowards. Deserted their comrades in the field of battle & then turned to murder for a few quid! Also,those women got off scott free. Although I admit they probably didn't expect that there would be a murder, but they at least deserved some prison time.... Although I will add that the perpetrators may have been suffering from PTSD. Who knows what horrors they had endured before they deserted? No excuses though,they deserved their sentence....
Thanks Steve. Just a point on WW1, shell shock was recognised. If someone was literally in the way of a shell blast and was blown up, and survived, as happened with my grandfather, the army accepted this could leave the victim a shivering wreck. My grandfather got an honourable discharge after being blown up and buried in mud surrounded by dead comrades after a German shell exploded close by. It was battlefield fatigue syndrome that wasn't recognised. The very name "shell-shock", which was used at the time is a clue to it being accepted.
Yes that's right, shell shock was recognised early in the War in 1915. My mother in law's father was discharged from the Army after suffering from it three times. He ended up marrying his Voluntary Aid Detachment nurse.
great story yet again Steve, however i am a little confused about something, as the two men were found guilty of murder means they had planned to rob and kill there victim, not just to rob him, in that case surely Helen as proved she should have been found guilty of at least complicity to murder, so why did she walk free? she was totally part of the whole plan in my eyes, so she got away with a murder ,
I’d be very interested in your take on the triple hanging of Henry Fowler, Albert Milsom and William Seaman. I believe that Fowler and Milsome were convicted of the same murder with Seaman who convicted of an un connected murder was placed between them on the scaffold to avoid he other two from fighting on the scaffold.
There is absolutely no excuse for Albert Fraser. He was not conscripted. Australia did not have conscription in WW1. He volunteered for military service. In fact there were 2 referendums to get conscription enacted and both failed. Fraser had nothing too much to fear by his desertion. The Australian military did not execute deserters. At worst he may have face a bit of time in prison. It seems he was a low life who got what he deserved.
@@thehangmansrecord2860 In every way. They were shot under the Military Law that applied at the time - only a very very tiny fraction of those that could have been executed actually were. Some were unlucky I will agree but many were guilty of multiple offences (including murder of their own comrades). It's a complicated issue and I feel that you could have done just a bit more research before commenting. Are you suggesting that these two deserted because of 'Shell Shock' - if not then why bring it into the story. These two deserved the drop Other than this - I really enjoy your channel but I just felt that the setting the scene with tired WWI cliches was below your high standards
@gblcfc65 fair enough, I'm not a military historian I was just trying to set the scene a little by explaining how brutal conditions were and why some deserted. From some of the limited reading I've done on military executions I believe that some were shot for cowardice which was later said to be unjust. I wasn't suggesting that the two deserted due to shellshock, the reason for their desertion wasnt clear from the accounts I read. Hope it didn't spoil the content too much
As I have stated before, as a trained investor, official secrets restrict me from elaborating. Steve your attention to research and detail are second to none. Amazing, many thanks.
Keith, I follow your channel and find it interesting. Personally I'm on the fence about capitol punishment. Some times + others -. Its your show. how do you feel on the topic of capitol punishment?
People have been surprised by how some of these crimes were done for seemingly pitiful amounts of money. However, we need to be cognisant of the fact that the World in general and Britain were a very different place then. Firstly, the World in general was a much more violent place. Therefore, peoples’ so-termed ‘frames of reference’ were very different. It was far more the norm for people to encounter all forms of violence in their daily lives than it is today. This ranged from a closer proximity to death of not just humans (life-expectancy and infant mortality rates were far from what they are today), but even to just to killing their own animals for food, through to domestic violence being far more common and accepted. Corporal punishment was the norm in schools at all ages and as we know from this channel, the use of Capital Punishment was virtually unquestioned and frequent. The spectrum of violence continued right through to the other end of the extreme such as these men would have experienced on the battlefields of WW1 and which will have brutalised them. Secondly, the was no significant Welfare State, as we recognise it today. If you didn’t have money to survive, the abject poverty that this spelt for you and your fate would have been unimaginable to most of us today. Yes, the World was far more brutal then than it is today.
@warburtonpaul A James Denovan died in Midlothian (if I remember rightly) in the mid-90s. He was in his 50s (information gleaned from the Scotland's People website). It would suggest that this was the same James Denovan who helped carry out the murder of John Cremin in 1960 for which Anthony Miller was hanged in December of that year. As a South Side of Glasgow boy who used to play football at Queen's Park Rec and grew up about a mile and a half up the road, I am looking forward very much to seeing Steve deal with this particular case. BTW the policeman killer from the 50s (James Robertson) carried out his dreadful deed less than a mile from Queen's Park Rec (Steve has already covered this case). Thanks again Steve for another excellent video.
Both killers were well above average height. Rollins had deserted from the Irish Guards, part of the tallest brigade in the Army. Two new Irish battalions had been raised hastily in 1915. Possibly Rollins had been signed up with more attention to his height than his character.
I’m glad we live in times of psychiatric reports where a prisoner is assessed for their mental health. These two desperados lived on the edge of society even one hailing from the Antipodes. I’m sorry they were forced to such extremes because of conscription. The assault of a victim was only a matter of time because he resisted. Fair play to him because of his bravery and his war record. This confrontation was only going to go one way. The two men had murder in their hearts. I’m opposed to the death penalty but in the context of 1920 Scotland there was little else the judiciary could do given the nature of the offence. Brilliant police work by the way following them to Belfast and arresting them on the basis of a description. I don’t fancy the interrogation, it would have been pretty brutal. An ugly crime in ugly times. At least we learned something about human nature and the lack of choices for desperate men. They weren’t very bright.
The detailing in all these cases by Steve is amazing I think that's why I am so interested in watching them all so much. THANK YOU again Steve.👍
Another great tale from our criminal history, thanks Steve. Great detective work in catching rhe two very unsavoury characters who got what they deserved.
Excellent Steve, a horrible pair of villains.
I love your detailed research, another one I hadn't heard of. Many thanks, Steve.
Excellent research as usual, Steve, keeping us interested.
Another great episode, Steve, thanks! Looking forward to the next instalment and, of course to "Queens Park, round 2" 😀
Hi Steve, I've just listened to my 1st 'Hangman's Record' of this pair of rather nasty character's living off other peoples endeavours & have enjoyed your presentation style & the story told. I've just stuck the kettle on & will be moving on to my 2nd episode. Thanks for your hard work & I'll wish you the best of luck for the future, Cheers!
@@russell-di8js cheers mate, hope you stick around and enjoy the back catalogue. I usually post a new video at 7pm GMT Monday. If you subscribe to the channel you will get notification and can join in the live chat as the video premieres
@@thehangmansrecord2860 Excellent. Ta.
Justice carried out in excellent fashion.cheers steve.
Thanks ,Steve . Your tales never dis-appoint . Hope you are warm and well .
disappoint
Im so happy watching this channel grow keeps getting better and better 👍
Great work Steve, well researched and interesting.
Another tremendous well reseached tale of a sad tale of the dark side of human nature in the shadow of the Great War.
So the two women got off with no punishment, doesnt seem fair ,,,another great story,beautifully told ❤
They were being sold for money.
@nicolad8822 they knew what they were doing
Fascinating as usual.
Thank you Steve... Amazing episode,... Blessed Be !
That was an intriguing episode. I think proper verdict. Could see the old duke st.prison from my upper school windows over the high wall.cheers.
Great video Steve well told as usual take care mate
This is a truly excellent series. I would request editions devoted to the George Kelly Cameo Cinema murders case (1949-1950) and the James Hanratty case (1961-1962). The Alfred Burns and Edward Devlin case (1951-1952) also deserves to be covered.
Thanks for your hard work steve, another case ive never heard of before. Two wasters and poor Mr Senior was very much the innocent victim.
It never ceases to astonish me, how many appalling crimes were committed for a pitifully small amount of money - in fact, LESS than could been earned with a couple of hours of casual labour.
The World and Britain was a very different place then.
Firstly, the World in general was a much more violent place. Therefore, peoples’ so-termed ‘frames of reference’ were very different. It was far more the norm for people to encounter all forms of violence in their daily lives than it is today. This ranged from a closer proximity to death of not just humans (life-expectancy and infant mortality rates were far from what they are today), to killing their own animals for food, through to domestic violence being far more common and accepted, right through to the other end of the extreme such as these men would have experienced on the battlefields of WW1 which will have brutalised them.
Secondly, the was no significant welfare state as we recognise it today. If you didn’t have money to survive, the abject poverty that this spelt and your fate would have been unimaginable to most of us today.
Yes, the World was far more brutal then than it is today.
They are criminals .They don't think like you do. They don't think like non violent criminals either .Most murderers are different
Brilliant. Thanks Steve.
More thumbs up are deserved for your channel! 👍🏼❣️💪🏼🏴🐈⬛💯🍻
Another excellent episode in a superb series. In this case the two young killers seemed so nonchalant about their fate, joking after sentence was passed. It’s hard to understand how anyone who had been told they would soon hang could be so relaxed about it.
When you consider the sort of life they had been leading since they deserted, I suppose they were relieved it was coming to an end.
Thanks! Steve, yet another great episode. Thanks. Bob
@@1089maul thank you
Thanks Steve your very interesting and a real good fella
Waynex
@@waynesallans9162 thank you
Thank you sir.
Thanks
thank you
Thanks Steve for another tale of justice being served.
Ellis was handed the pair of cutthroats like a lady going to a buy-one and receive two bargain store...!
Have a great week!
I had not heard about this case before. However, it was another excellent video, up to your usual detailed and high standards. Thanks Steve 👍
Very good.
Thanks again Steve.
Brilliant again, Steve!
Thank you
Great documentary as always, and wonderful illustrations as well. Brilliant.
Thank you!
Hi Steve, really enjoyed this episode, as always. What a pair of heartless cowards. Thank you. Have you thought about doing an episode on someone from my home city of Nottingham - 'Nurse' Dorothea Waddingham? I believe the house she lived in on Beech Avenue is still there.
I'm doing a female poisoner special coming up she will feature in that
Steve excellent mate. The research you do on these tales must take you forever. Amazing isn't it that two men would be willing to throw their lives away for the equivalent for £50 each???? It was well known that the penalty for Murder was fixed by law, as it is now......but we still see murders today for nothing......There can be little doubt of the guilt of these two...Justice Served....Have you ever covered the Ruth Ellis case? Best Regards Geoff
Thanks for another interesting listen
Great video as always Steve
Thanks for a very interesting video Steve. It sounds like justice was done ......
Ready and waiting !!!😊
Poor fella survived the horrific Great War - only to be killed in peacetime. He at least got justice post mortem
Thanks Steve👍
Good episode ,Steve.
good one steve.
I like the B&W illustrations that you have now in this series, can you please give some information about them?
@@rodneyfrost1674 I have sourced or created all the images myself
Two cowards.
Deserted their comrades in the field of battle & then turned to murder for a few quid!
Also,those women got off scott free.
Although I admit they probably didn't expect that there would be a murder, but they at least deserved some prison time....
Although I will add that the perpetrators may have been suffering from PTSD. Who knows what horrors they had endured before they deserted?
No excuses though,they deserved their sentence....
Thanks Steve. Just a point on WW1, shell shock was recognised. If someone was literally in the way of a shell blast and was blown up, and survived, as happened with my grandfather, the army accepted this could leave the victim a shivering wreck. My grandfather got an honourable discharge after being blown up and buried in mud surrounded by dead comrades after a German shell exploded close by. It was battlefield fatigue syndrome that wasn't recognised. The very name "shell-shock", which was used at the time is a clue to it being accepted.
@@peteralflat281 thanks for the info
Yes that's right, shell shock was recognised early in the War in 1915. My mother in law's father was discharged from the Army after suffering from it three times. He ended up marrying his Voluntary Aid Detachment nurse.
"Dad, I know what I wanna be when I grow up" "Whats that son?"
"An executioner"
great story yet again Steve, however i am a little confused about something, as the two men were found guilty of murder means they had planned to rob and kill there victim, not just to rob him, in that case surely Helen as proved she should have been found guilty of at least complicity to murder, so why did she walk free? she was totally part of the whole plan in my eyes, so she got away with a murder ,
I think as she turned King's evidence she avoided prosecution
I hope the bigger bird didn't have the audacity to try and charge any bloke.
@@chipbuttytime3396 :)
Truppence hapenny guvnor
🤣
😂😂😂
The judge's instructions to the jury as to the questions of culp or murder would have been interesting to listeners imho
I’d be very interested in your take on the triple hanging of Henry Fowler, Albert Milsom and William Seaman. I believe that Fowler and Milsome were convicted of the same murder with Seaman who convicted of an un connected murder was placed between them on the scaffold to avoid he other two from fighting on the scaffold.
I believe it was the last triple at Newgate.
@@peterbryan9652 yes it was the last triple at Newgate. It's coming soon
There is absolutely no excuse for Albert Fraser. He was not conscripted. Australia did not have conscription in WW1. He volunteered for military service. In fact there were 2 referendums to get conscription enacted and both failed. Fraser had nothing too much to fear by his desertion. The Australian military did not execute deserters. At worst he may have face a bit of time in prison. It seems he was a low life who got what he deserved.
First rate presentation as always
Good stuff - but wrong on the 'Shot at Dawn' stuff sad to say
@@gblcfc65 what do you mean wrong? in what way?
@@thehangmansrecord2860 In every way. They were shot under the Military Law that applied at the time - only a very very tiny fraction of those that could have been executed actually were. Some were unlucky I will agree but many were guilty of multiple offences (including murder of their own comrades). It's a complicated issue and I feel that you could have done just a bit more research before commenting. Are you suggesting that these two deserted because of 'Shell Shock' - if not then why bring it into the story. These two deserved the drop
Other than this - I really enjoy your channel but I just felt that the setting the scene with tired WWI cliches was below your high standards
@gblcfc65 fair enough, I'm not a military historian I was just trying to set the scene a little by explaining how brutal conditions were and why some deserted. From some of the limited reading I've done on military executions I believe that some were shot for cowardice which was later said to be unjust. I wasn't suggesting that the two deserted due to shellshock, the reason for their desertion wasnt clear from the accounts I read. Hope it didn't spoil the content too much
As I have stated before, as a trained investor, official secrets restrict me from elaborating. Steve your attention to research and detail are second to none.
Amazing, many thanks.
Keith, I follow your channel and find it interesting. Personally I'm on the fence about capitol punishment. Some times + others -. Its your show. how do you feel on the topic of capitol punishment?
Who's Keith?
Do you mean Steve or is this posted on the wrong page?
People have been surprised by how some of these crimes were done for seemingly pitiful amounts of money. However, we need to be cognisant of the fact that the World in general and Britain were a very different place then.
Firstly, the World in general was a much more violent place. Therefore, peoples’ so-termed ‘frames of reference’ were very different. It was far more the norm for people to encounter all forms of violence in their daily lives than it is today. This ranged from a closer proximity to death of not just humans (life-expectancy and infant mortality rates were far from what they are today), but even to just to killing their own animals for food, through to domestic violence being far more common and accepted. Corporal punishment was the norm in schools at all ages and as we know from this channel, the use of Capital Punishment was virtually unquestioned and frequent.
The spectrum of violence continued right through to the other end of the extreme such as these men would have experienced on the battlefields of WW1 and which will have brutalised them.
Secondly, the was no significant Welfare State, as we recognise it today. If you didn’t have money to survive, the abject poverty that this spelt for you and your fate would have been unimaginable to most of us today.
Yes, the World was far more brutal then than it is today.
@@derin111 I say that pretty much word for word when I do my talks :)
Ive been in th🎉at cave..on the cavehill...they would have been exposed..its not deep
:)
The same Queens park where Anthony miller killed John Crimer?
yes, that's the case I referenced at the end. That episode will be coming soon
@@thehangmansrecord2860 please do the Devlin and Burns case Steve... They where stitched up by Balmer!
@@thehangmansrecord2860 looking forward to that one, Steve.
Always wondered what happened to James Denovan, who would be around 80 if still with us.
@warburtonpaul A James Denovan died in Midlothian (if I remember rightly) in the mid-90s. He was in his 50s (information gleaned from the Scotland's People website). It would suggest that this was the same James Denovan who helped carry out the murder of John Cremin in 1960 for which Anthony Miller was hanged in December of that year.
As a South Side of Glasgow boy who used to play football at Queen's Park Rec and grew up about a mile and a half up the road, I am looking forward very much to seeing Steve deal with this particular case. BTW the policeman killer from the 50s (James Robertson) carried out his dreadful deed less than a mile from Queen's Park Rec (Steve has already covered this case).
Thanks again Steve for another excellent video.
Both killers were well above average height. Rollins had deserted from the Irish Guards, part of the tallest brigade in the Army. Two new Irish battalions had been raised hastily in 1915. Possibly Rollins had been signed up with more attention to his height than his character.
Grenadiers and the Coldstreams!
Chances were his character did not come apparent till he deserted.
I’m glad we live in times of psychiatric reports where a prisoner is assessed for their mental health. These two desperados lived on the edge of society even one hailing from the Antipodes. I’m sorry they were forced to such extremes because of conscription. The assault of a victim was only a matter of time because he resisted. Fair play to him because of his bravery and his war record. This confrontation was only going to go one way. The two men had murder in their hearts. I’m opposed to the death penalty but in the context of 1920 Scotland there was little else the judiciary could do given the nature of the offence. Brilliant police work by the way following them to Belfast and arresting them on the basis of a description. I don’t fancy the interrogation, it would have been pretty brutal. An ugly crime in ugly times. At least we learned something about human nature and the lack of choices for desperate men. They weren’t very bright.
I live in Govanhill and had never heard of this. 😮. Great video.
Thanks
@@markw4307 thank you
Thanks
@@davidhewson1042 thank you
Thanks
@@martinstreet1847 thank you
Thanks
Thank you