I can't count how many times I've been putting things back together and get the sequence of reassembly out of order. It happens to us all! Also, I hope Scott is doing better. Also #2, I can't thank you enough for your videos man. They are beyond informative and the first place I check when it has anything to do with mods and times on saws. So thanks, I appreciate your efforts you put into all these videos!
usually a 2 stroke engine will prefer a timing retardation for high rpm application. Causing ignition closer to top dead center to make up for the increasing burn rate of the fuel as heat and RPMs rise so that the combustion chamber can maintain maximum pressure somewhere around 12 degrees after top dead center
I have a 661 an I did the Scott muffler job to it (drilled the spot welds to remove the whole baffle and added another exhaust port on the opposite side of the factory one) also have a max flow on it. Do you recommend porting it to do the timing advance or will it breath enough with what I have done so far?
Put a degree wheel on it and see what difference in degrees. Then a timing light and see if it stays at the same timing point. I dont like that play in the flywheel. Its easy enough to break full keys, let alone shaved ones. Good work though. A simple ( exhaust) port and polish works wonders. I did it to my 2186 and opened the muffler outlet a little and it was way better thru mid and top end.
Thanks for making this video. My module says 4702 A is that the new one? Also. Can I do this to a stock saw. I have a maxflow air filter and a duel port muffler. Do you think I would get gains?
welcome. yes sir that is latest. you can do it to a stock saw. Gains will be minimal. But they all add up so... Me I would but I can do it in a few minutes.
I wouldnt think so.. they are completely different engines , with totally different parameters as it pertains to air and fuel mixture... But im not sure.. seems to me that it would be like taking a 661 carb and putting it on a 441 and expecting the setting on the carb to be right. Just my 2c
k wolf Most likely wrong fuel/ oil ratio. Usually the piston gets stuck in the cylinder. Get a piston and cylinder kit and get after it. Plenty of videos out here that’ll help you.
Wait if scott milled them, and he did your saw...why didn't he set the key to his porting, there in his shop? Just curious!! Scott's one of the 2 best minds on porting I've found on youtube (on the net, really...when it comes to powersaws, I mean), an so envious of a 661 he did, I would be soooo darn hesitant to touch a thing (at least w/o having gone over it with him...I must be confusing him, could've sworn he'd said he *doesn't* advance 660's much although this isn't a 660 you have :P) Thanks for making the vid, showing how simple it is -- having mostly had flywheels with cast keyways, I never touched timing-advances, but seeing how these pro saws have removable, cheap keys -- it's like you can just play with them to you're PERFECT! I have a pair of chinesium 660's, both stock timing (but ported, heavily modified, about to do case work on one of them), anyway thanks again for posting this - I just spent like ~$20 and have a Stihl flywheel-puller and 2 keys arriving, I'll do one key at 25, one at 15 thou removed, see which one I like better, then actually do my 'oem' keys, will be able to dial it in instead of "20 thous is better than stock so good-enough" yknow? Seems if you only need to remove flywheel cover, remove flywheel, do a quick file & measurement, and check if it's better/worse than before...going in 5thou increments, one should be able to reallly dial-in things!!
Love your vids & thanks for doing them. Obviously, timing advance is beneficial...but so is porting....and muffler mods....and so is squish/compression.... Guess I'm curious as to the individual gains in each- Could you rank and quantify improvements, from most-least beneficial/effective? If you're racing; you're gonna do it all. What's the most cost-effective if you're logging or cutting firewood? Thanks again!
dual port muffler mod. = most cost effective improvement. stock port should be opened up a little and then a deflector opposite side should be installed. and NOT on the front cover.
stihl es lite 3lbs 5oz, Tsumura 3lbs 10oz, Oregon lite 3lbs 7oz, Sugi Hara 4lbs 2oz. I would say stihl or Tsumura. Tsumura will be cheaper and I seriously doubt you'll be able to tell a difference...probably last longer as well.
I think that this way you are giving the spark later than the factory setting so its not timing advace. Its actualy timing delay. If you want timing advance you have to tight the flywheel forced clockwise(opposite direction of normal) Am i right?
Can someone tell me why these mods are necessary? I prefer durability over bragging rights. Waste of money and probably a flywheel. My 661 does fine bone stock. By the way, using a file for a punch is not a good idea.
necessary NO. Fun YES. Durability wise - Scott has ported probably a hundred or so 661s. Not one has come back. Scott's personal ported 440 has over 1000+ gallons of gas through it. No issues. There is just no evidence to support the theory of less durability if the mods are done correctly. Plenty of cases of stock saws run on 50:1 that get roasted...if anything modding saw helps it.
@@Redbull661 Yes, I agree. To me it just makes sense to port these newer saws. It lets them run a lot cooler which in the long run makes them last longer. I've run an 044 for years, and when I bought a 661 a couple of years ago I couldn't believe how restricted the muffler was. Needless to say I opened her up a bit and am much happier.
I can get 10-12 face cord cut up per gallon of fuel with me hotwoods ported 462c - know it for a fact ... 1000 gallons x (10-12) face = 10000 - 12000 face cord ... assuming $90/face retail that’s 900,000 - 1,080,000 gross ... while the lifespan of a Saw is inversely proportional to the amount of dirt it ingests ( also SHARP chain and proper maintenance by operator) I find it doubtful that a $1500 modded Saw will gross you + - 1 MILLION dollars with NO issues ; 1-2 thousand hrs runtime before rebuild (or 6mo-1yr of 6-8hrs a day cutting) seems more realistic
firstly I appreciate these videos and the fact that you just did that work on your lawn, well good on ya :7) as mr strange noted, u say be careful with anything sharp around the crank shaft and then hammer on it with the hardened file as a punch... I giggled, file would be my last choice for multiple reasons Also if you were going to go that method of modding the "woodruff" key, I would have stuck with the original key but shaved just the thickness off the section that protrudes in a vice with a hand file. going an entirely different size will possibly eventually chew out your flywheel, maybe not? but there wasnt much there keeping it indexed on the shaft, that key is supposed to stick out far more than that. anyway awesome saw, you have to love new toys..... afterthought, in theory there is not alot of force put on that key once the nut is torqued so I guess ur fine
Can anyone think of any reason you couldn't un-do a timing advance? IE, just loosen retention-nut, rotate flywheel a tad CW to its OEM position, re-tighten retention nut...the rotation of the crank here is CCW so I expect it should be OK insofar as the retention nut being sufficient but wanted to ask if anyone's done it (am about 3deg advanced on one of my builds and, even w/ an Elasto-type, D-shaped handle it is still a nightmare to start...)
Maybe you did not do well you can destroy the flywheel and the packaging It's a big risk! I don't have the courage to do that! Is this the first time you do this ???
Redbull, great job! Saw is running sweet and cuts like a beast.
I can't count how many times I've been putting things back together and get the sequence of reassembly out of order. It happens to us all! Also, I hope Scott is doing better. Also #2, I can't thank you enough for your videos man. They are beyond informative and the first place I check when it has anything to do with mods and times on saws. So thanks, I appreciate your efforts you put into all these videos!
thank you sir.
@@Redbull661 Friend, the revolutions 13200 max for the saw 372xp oe 2003 are okay?
That was a probably a conservative time gain, since the wood looks like it got wider with each cut cookie. Keep up the great work.
Awesome vid dude. Keep it up.
thank you sir
Great video very helpful.
Good information!Thank you
Thanks!
usually a 2 stroke engine will prefer a timing retardation for high rpm application. Causing ignition closer to top dead center to make up for the increasing burn rate of the fuel as heat and RPMs rise so that the combustion chamber can maintain maximum pressure somewhere around 12 degrees after top dead center
You are the omniscient of chainsaws!!! 👍👍👍Great info, and greetings from Hungary!
thanks. but not even close. I do know quite a bit about the 661.
Great vid. Btw!
I have a 661 an I did the Scott muffler job to it (drilled the spot welds to remove the whole baffle and added another exhaust port on the opposite side of the factory one) also have a max flow on it. Do you recommend porting it to do the timing advance or will it breath enough with what I have done so far?
Would a timing advance on a 440 do anything?
Great info!
thanks!
Hay man any advise on the 461
I need information on the d15l
Put a degree wheel on it and see what difference in degrees. Then a timing light and see if it stays at the same timing point. I dont like that play in the flywheel. Its easy enough to break full keys, let alone shaved ones. Good work though. A simple ( exhaust) port and polish works wonders.
I did it to my 2186 and opened the muffler outlet a little and it was way better thru mid and top end.
done a lot of timing advances on 661s. no issues.
Thanks for making this video. My module says 4702 A is that the new one? Also. Can I do this to a stock saw. I have a maxflow air filter and a duel port muffler. Do you think I would get gains?
welcome. yes sir that is latest. you can do it to a stock saw. Gains will be minimal. But they all add up so... Me I would but I can do it in a few minutes.
Does anybody else follow Timbersports or going to Buckinstock in September?
What kind of bar is that?
How can I get one of them keys
Would the MS 661C M-Tronic Module
Be any good to replace the M-Tronic Module on the MS 441C MW ?
I wouldnt think so.. they are completely different engines , with totally different parameters as it pertains to air and fuel mixture... But im not sure.. seems to me that it would be like taking a 661 carb and putting it on a 441 and expecting the setting on the carb to be right. Just my 2c
I have a 036 that seized what ciuld be the problem.? Would appreciate the help..
k wolf Most likely wrong fuel/ oil ratio. Usually the piston gets stuck in the cylinder. Get a piston and cylinder kit and get after it. Plenty of videos out here that’ll help you.
Wait if scott milled them, and he did your saw...why didn't he set the key to his porting, there in his shop? Just curious!! Scott's one of the 2 best minds on porting I've found on youtube (on the net, really...when it comes to powersaws, I mean), an so envious of a 661 he did, I would be soooo darn hesitant to touch a thing (at least w/o having gone over it with him...I must be confusing him, could've sworn he'd said he *doesn't* advance 660's much although this isn't a 660 you have :P)
Thanks for making the vid, showing how simple it is -- having mostly had flywheels with cast keyways, I never touched timing-advances, but seeing how these pro saws have removable, cheap keys -- it's like you can just play with them to you're PERFECT! I have a pair of chinesium 660's, both stock timing (but ported, heavily modified, about to do case work on one of them), anyway thanks again for posting this - I just spent like ~$20 and have a Stihl flywheel-puller and 2 keys arriving, I'll do one key at 25, one at 15 thou removed, see which one I like better, then actually do my 'oem' keys, will be able to dial it in instead of "20 thous is better than stock so good-enough" yknow? Seems if you only need to remove flywheel cover, remove flywheel, do a quick file & measurement, and check if it's better/worse than before...going in 5thou increments, one should be able to reallly dial-in things!!
Love your vids & thanks for doing them. Obviously, timing advance is beneficial...but so is porting....and muffler mods....and so is squish/compression.... Guess I'm curious as to the individual gains in each- Could you rank and quantify improvements, from most-least beneficial/effective? If you're racing; you're gonna do it all. What's the most cost-effective if you're logging or cutting firewood?
Thanks again!
dual port muffler mod. = most cost effective improvement. stock port should be opened up a little and then a deflector opposite side should be installed. and NOT on the front cover.
Hey Redbull661 can this bee done on an 024 or a 660 and a 346 and 372 ?
I know the 064, 066, 660 all like timing advance. couldn't speak with any authority on the others.
Blz
Would advancing the timing on muffler modded ms362c-m do much? Is it really worth it?
I don't think advancing a 361 or 362 does anything. Infact I think it may actually go backwards.
Does a 362 have a key? That would be another good video.
8
Where did you get the flywheel key? I've been searching and cant find one to save my life
tree monkey milled it for me.
How much lighter are the Tsumura bars? looking at the 32"
stihl es lite 3lbs 5oz, Tsumura 3lbs 10oz, Oregon lite 3lbs 7oz, Sugi Hara 4lbs 2oz. I would say stihl or Tsumura. Tsumura will be cheaper and I seriously doubt you'll be able to tell a difference...probably last longer as well.
@@Redbull661 Thanks, love your channel full of info!
welcome. thanks.
Is this the same f8r all stihl small engines
no sir
I’d like to advance the timing on 462 it’s got a muffler mod currently. Is it as simple as this procedure except obviously on a 462?
no key on the 462. you need a degree wheel and need to file on the actual fly wheel. Not as easy.
Hey what kind of oil are you running in your saws? Be it ported or not.
Hotsaw 101 has a whole video about it very good info
Charles Richardson he’s the reason I run H1-R
@@stephanms661cm3 I've got a new 462 wonder how much it would cost for him to do his magic on it
Charles Richardson not sure. Maybe 400 max I would think. Most will do it for around that. And I mean that’s everything.
Charles Richardson email him. He’s got it in the link
how do I change timing on a 028 super? been searching and cant find the answers
opeforum would know.
Thanks
She cuts aye!
I think that this way you are giving the spark later than the factory setting so its not timing advace. Its actualy timing delay. If you want timing advance you have to tight the flywheel forced clockwise(opposite direction of normal)
Am i right?
Wow really sounds like u know what you're talking about 😂
Almost revs like a Husqvarna.
Can someone tell me why these mods are necessary? I prefer durability over bragging rights. Waste of money and probably a flywheel. My 661 does fine bone stock. By the way, using a file for a punch is not a good idea.
necessary NO. Fun YES. Durability wise - Scott has ported probably a hundred or so 661s. Not one has come back. Scott's personal ported 440 has over 1000+ gallons of gas through it. No issues. There is just no evidence to support the theory of less durability if the mods are done correctly.
Plenty of cases of stock saws run on 50:1 that get roasted...if anything modding saw helps it.
@@Redbull661 Yes, I agree. To me it just makes sense to port these newer saws. It lets them run a lot cooler which in the long run makes them last longer. I've run an 044 for years, and when I bought a 661 a couple of years ago I couldn't believe how restricted the muffler was. Needless to say I opened her up a bit and am much happier.
I can get 10-12 face cord cut up per gallon of fuel with me hotwoods ported 462c - know it for a fact ... 1000 gallons x (10-12) face = 10000 - 12000 face cord ... assuming $90/face retail that’s 900,000 - 1,080,000 gross ... while the lifespan of a Saw is inversely proportional to the amount of dirt it ingests ( also SHARP chain and proper maintenance by operator) I find it doubtful that a $1500 modded Saw will gross you + - 1 MILLION dollars with NO issues ; 1-2 thousand hrs runtime before rebuild (or 6mo-1yr of 6-8hrs a day cutting) seems more realistic
R.P. Strange I tend to agree with you. Given the cost of these saws I wouldn’t want to mod a work tool just to gain .25 seconds on falling a 30” tree.
firstly I appreciate these videos and the fact that you just did that work on your lawn, well good on ya :7)
as mr strange noted, u say be careful with anything sharp around the crank shaft and then hammer on it with the hardened file as a punch... I giggled, file would be my last choice for multiple reasons
Also if you were going to go that method of modding the "woodruff" key, I would have stuck with the original key but shaved just the thickness off the section that protrudes in a vice with a hand file.
going an entirely different size will possibly eventually chew out your flywheel,
maybe not? but there wasnt much there keeping it indexed on the shaft, that key is supposed to stick out far more than that.
anyway awesome saw, you have to love new toys.....
afterthought, in theory there is not alot of force put on that key once the nut is torqued so I guess ur fine
Do you sell the keys ?
I'm sorry I don't.
@@Redbull661 OK thank you
You use a torque wrench on spark plug but not on your flywheel nut smh
Not the same
Can anyone think of any reason you couldn't un-do a timing advance? IE, just loosen retention-nut, rotate flywheel a tad CW to its OEM position, re-tighten retention nut...the rotation of the crank here is CCW so I expect it should be OK insofar as the retention nut being sufficient but wanted to ask if anyone's done it (am about 3deg advanced on one of my builds and, even w/ an Elasto-type, D-shaped handle it is still a nightmare to start...)
Maybe you did not do well you can destroy the flywheel and the packaging
It's a big risk!
I don't have the courage to do that!
Is this the first time you do this ???
I've done it many times on 661s. I couldn't even guess how many times I've done a timing advance on a 661.
The gains to be had outweigh the risks imo.
Bro what if you drop that little peice in the grass haha