Storytime with Sandy - Seabee and The Paradigm Plane.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- This video was originally uploaded to our Patreon Page over a year ago.
Munro Live is a TH-cam channel that features Sandy Munro and other engineers from Munro & Associates. Munro is an engineering consulting firm and a world leader in reverse engineering and teardown benchmarking.
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You were not the first person to discover that making a small fortune in general aviation requires a large fortune first. Long time pilot here, and always admired the SeaBee. It was not the only aircraft design of its time to use an exoskeleton, though. The North American Navion wing has no long, heavy spar as so many other aircraft do. Instead, it uses the same box structure and "heavy" structural wing skins for strength. It was so strong that a Navion wing (one-piece, joined at the center) was used as a bridge for troops to drive jeeps over in Korea, where the Navion was in use as a liaison airplane. And the Navion, though a large plane, was remarkably light, too. And amazingly resistant to corrosion. When I had to split my wings to access and replace the stamped aluminum fuel tanks, the internal, zinc-chromated spaces were absolutely pristine. So much so that an inspector's stamp and signature looked like they'd been applied last week, not 70 years ago. One issue, though: climbing into the cockpit with its sliding canopy was awkward for women in skirts.
munro: LS-swapping 70 year old airplanes ;))
Women could wear hot pants instead of skirts. Problem solved!
We had a Meyers 200D, everyone thought it was a Navion!
I want to LS swap a Navion!
Thanks for sharing this story.
My pleasure!
Sandy is a great communicator I really enjoy his anecdotes. This project could be refreshed with the help of those building electric planes. It would be real shame if all these ideas are allowed to wither. Let's hope someone shares this story and it can have a fairy-tale ending in 12 to 24 months time.
EV planes are already very Light, they have to be , batteries weigh alot.
Elec motors very good Power/Weight ratio.
but, you cant go very far or Carry cargo over Long Distance.
most EV planes use Composites .
I agree! I don't know anything about planes, but if Sandy likes it it has to be good!
The FAA will kill it. They like 1940s engines and 1940s construction methods.
Fantastic project Sandy! Do not give up on it.
Great ideas never die. They just wait for the right time to reboot. I'd expect with all the advances in manufacturing and composites it may be possible to resurrect the project with a better vision. Getting FAA approval (and insurance) is of course what has hampered this industry. Some manufacturers use the kit loophole to sell the plane and allow the customer to do a little assembly (at a certified maintenance facility) to skirt issues and register it as experimental. Its amazing how many ancient Cessna's and Beechcrafts you still see. The market really needs a full refresh. A few have come out but very expensive.
Somebody once said "if it looks right, it flies right". This plane certainly does look right.
Fantastic video! Caught my attention because my (late) father's first airplane ride was in a SeaBee. I LOVED to see those design and construction innovations in it, and just rolled my eyes at yet another example of good engineering that went by the wayside because it wasn't 'normal'. The Paradigm is another great example of the hundreds (or is it thousands or millions) of excellent inventions that never came to be because of various external factors (my theory is most of them are owned by inventors who have no business acumen - not the case here though). And, of course, I keep thinking about the Cybertruck, although it is likely to see success.
Thanks again for another very interesting and educational (yes, both words in same sentence here) video!
P.S. Air Traffic Control is the most gawdawful, antiquated, error-drenched, non-quality-improvement thing in aviation. Would love a Munro take on that!
Thank you for being you mate, you've certainly entertained & educated me over the past few years.
Your awesome Sandy. ❤❤❤
WOW!! That's a really fascinating story Sandy. I am so sorry for you and the world that it didn't work out for you. Love your channel. Gene from Tennessee.
All the best to you Sandy and your great team of people!
I hope this project comes to life some day!!
Great story Sandy! I'm a private pilot myself and it's always puzzled me that the pace of innovation in general aviation tends to move at a glacial pace. Until Cirrus brought us the first certified aircraft with a glass cockpit and a parachute recovery system, a new Cessna 172 in the early 2000's would've still be largely the same as one from the 60's! Too bad your concept didn't work out, as Cirrus is now the biggest GA manufacturer in the US.
Yes, the general aviation industry is very slow-moving. Cirrus is an interesting example, though... their VK-30 was essentially the Paradigm (but without the duct around the propeller)... built and actually flying in 1987. What Cirrus learned from the VK-30 was that it was not a good idea.
Sandy- what can we do to resurrect this idea, I'd say you would get a bunch of investors esp if this were electric
Sadly, electric isn't the way to go with aircraft. Not yet at least. You would need to find much lighter battery packs. The extra energy needed to get the battery weight up in the air would kill the savings of electricity. In flying weight is EVERYTHING.
Sadly, Sandy's idea will be a pipe dream through his life and until his death. There area already many companies much farther along to launch or have started to launch these. He might be a consultant but his baby will never come to fruition
@@djemceeTell that to people that are flying electric planes. They are small short range planes, including in commercial passenger aviation.
I believe there’s a hellofa market in S.E. Alaska for your airplane (with floats although not absolutely necessary). As a kid I saw the SeaBee in Petersburg, Alaska. May have flown out of Wrangell? Ketchikan? Maybe Juneau-
It is a shame you’re unable to resurrect your plane. There’s a hellofa potential.
I could listen to this for hours. Please make more story time videos about real world design
Thanks for sharing Sandy.
Thanks for watching!
Really interesting! That's the first compliments I've ever heard regarding the SeeBee. Originally built out on Long Island by Republic, trying to catch the wave of aviation interest that was predicted to materialize following the war. It didn't materialize and many aviation start-ups failed in those post war years. The Sea Bee was more successful than many of them, but then it was a company with much deeper pockets than most.
Richard Bach had one of these and described hearing the airplane play "Onward Christian Soldiers" (I think it was) when in cruise.
There's a twin-engined version of this plane called, what else, a Twin Bee.
My father flew the Seabee, in mid 50,s. Unfortunately he wrecked it in a mountain sea, in the Swedish Highlands (Fjällsjö). Turned upside down because of a typhone that turned him around. He survived, but was not able to restore it. Dont know what happened after rescue. I still have some pictures of the rescued SeaBee.
What an incredible idea and way ahead of its time, I hope you get it up and running again it would be a blast to see one !
🙋♂️THANKS SANDY,FOR SHARING THIS STORY AND TAKING THE TIME TO EXPLAIN IT, AND THANK THE MUNRO TEAM FOR ENCOURAGING YOU TO SHARE THIS STORY 💯😎💚💚💚
Tears flowed after watching this!! Sandy you are truly the VERY BEST!!!!
Not just one feather in Munros' bow! Such depth in design.
Sandy, Thank you for sharing this story about this remarkable aircraft ! As I watched and listened to talk I kept thinking this amazing project shouldn’t be given a death sentence as its still seems it would be a terrific plane if built today. I hope you or someone with you keep this alive. Also I just love what you said about the Franklin power plant ! I’ve always thought those aircraft engines were crude given what could be a much safer alternative. Absolutely love your channel, thank you !
Wow Sandy this was awesome... forward thinking design! 2008 was a devastating time (perhaps worse than the COVID pandemic impact). Thanks for sharing. Can sense your emotion speaking of and about the Imapct. You continue to make an impact with what you are doing!
I just asked about this, and here it is! Thank you very much!
In 2008, I finished my engineering in Computer Science. I had contracted Tuberculosis and had a painful recovery just 4 months ago. There were no jobs, and I did not land my first job for another 18 more months. Thankfully my parents supported me, and I could concentrate on acquiring useful skills and concentrated on improving my health. That positive attitude kept me going.
It's 15 years later and I have a successful career in IT and am living a good life. Things get difficult, but one has to keep going and have faith. Thanks for everything Sandy and team Munro Live!!
That is sad Sandy....it's amazing how the best laid plans can be completely sabotaged by random circumstance. Like the saying goes, timing is everything. I built and tested a nifty BEV in the mid 90's, that could be built inexpensively and was a lot of fun to drive ( handled like a slot car ) but after pounding the pavement for 5 years looking for investors and coming up empty handed I folded my cards and slipped quietly away to lick my wounds. Too different, too soon.
You definitely got the Franklin engine right, we threw out all of them when we rebuilt 22 Piper Cubs in Sussex, N.J. back about 1959.
Thank you Sandy, I built and flew a Vans RV-7A with Grand Rapids EFIS Synthetic Vision and approach.
I would like to hear more about the spot welding on the SeaB, and the landing gear on the Paradigm.
I could spend hours listening to you talk about aircraft. ❤👍🇺🇸
Thank you for the backstory on some of the most exciting days of my short R&D career in missionary aviation: beginning in Alaska with the CAPSTONE project and finishing with the SATS technology demonstration in Danville, VA. I knew your concept as the Personal Air Vehicle (PAV) Tailfan from the NASA literature. An archive document on the NASA website said this: "The configuration was given the descriptive generic name TailFan, and this particular concept is referred to as the Civetta, which translates to 'little owl' from Italian." I envisioned this aircraft as a high-wing utility vehicle that could accommodate passengers serving the same role as the Ford Model-T but at the village level in the rest-of-the-world today.
I'm sad with you.
ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20060056430/downloads/20060056430.pdf
page seven
I like Sandy's office gate guard
His name is Doug!
@@MunroLive I was wondering about that!!!! so cool!!!
What an amazing story teller is Sandy! I enjoy listening to him talking about technical stuff and also experiences he's had in the past which there are so many things in them we can learn from. Cheers to Sandy 🍻
As a retired A.M.E (A&P) I found this a very interesting Airplane. One thing you didn't mention what price range it would fall into. And I gather that is was not going too be a seaplane . Which is something I would have loved to see. interesting design and I think it would have had a good future with the options you mentioned. Thanks for showing that to us.
Thank you, Sandy. we love all the great information ❤.
I remember seeing that demo in Oshkosh and always wondered what happened to it.
Ahh, Sandy! Funny how life presents those unplanned ups and downs! You have shared this story before, but not as in depth as this one- I hope that along with your current successes, this was a catharsis for you- but some things just stick with us. A couple of years ago, I sent y'all an email with 3 ideas to make money for your TH-cam projects, the first of which was to 3-D print copies of your Paradigm model and sell those. I still think this is a great idea;-) Regardless, I hope to get a chance to meet you at the end of the month in Austin- just joined the Austin Tesla Owners club, and look forward to the CyberTruck reveal get-together. Many thanks for your videos!
Thanks for making this available to all subscribers. It makes me sad too. Even Burt Rutan has had designs which never came to fruition, the latest being the long anticipated but likely never to complete - the SkiGull.
Fascinating video and story, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
It doesn't have to be a flop as long as the learnings are passed on, who knows, one day this design inspires someone. Would definitely urge you to consider open-sourcing the info regarding the innovations so that industry learns from the "paradigm shift" that is still ahead of its time.
Love the way Munro thinks and always pushes past convention in everything it does. Sorry to hear this project didn't go forward, sounds like a great plane. Really looking forward to what Munro comes up with in electric flight.
This design is a 1987 Cirrus VK-30 plus a duct around the propeller... and ducted propellers (or fans) have been around for decades.
super aviation history Sandy! that's the only way to go, if U'r puddle jumping! there's another chapter! wonderful product.
Thanks again for an interesting video Sandy. In the 1960s my father had a good friend, Frank Mills. He had a SeaBee he parked at his home near Annapolis, MD. He landed it on the South River and pulled it up behind his house. It was painted with broad vertical black and yellow stripes (I wonder how many were) and he was a great guy. He had a nice little shop and was always ready to help us teenagers with our projects and such. Rumor has it that we watched as he pulled my older brother on water skis behind it one day but that it just a rumor. Took a real long tow-line to keep the spray from hurting him. It was a great ride and he used it to commute to Washington National in DC. Mr. Mills was the pilot of the 1st privately-owned 707, which he flew for Marjorie Merriweather Post to and from some house with a funny name she had in Florida..
Thank you for sharing!
thank you for sharing hard pill to swallow but you are tenacious
WOW! I am amazed! Stunned!
Thank YOU Sandy.
Thanks! I've wondered about your aviation work. This sounds like a good fit for the NYC/Hamptons folks. All the best
I've wondered about that SeaBee sitting in the corner for years, so thank you for making this video and for sharing it with the rest of us. An awesome project.
I've seen many promising aviation ventures ended by bankruptcies, even through no fault of the developers, but this venture would almost certainly have had financial challenges regardless of Lehman Brothers as very few companies manage to succeed in aviation :(. Getting a full self-piloting system through the FAA in the 00's might have been impossible and as far as I'm aware we *still* don't have such a system today that's approved for participating in standard air traffic and using standard airport runways.
That's a really cool history. The most valuable lesson here is the resilience of your company even with this huge setback. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching, Dan!
Beautiful idea. As an engineering student, I was taught that even great, well thought-out ideas die if they’re born at the wrong time or place. We have to appreciate the bright spots, but they too shall pass.
Most interesting , thank you .
Hi Sandy i really enjoyed your video on this aircraft I had no idea that this was something that you engaged in as i know you through your tesla podcasts as I am also a shareholder. My father was a pilot and spent alot of hours in a seabee in the late 60's then went on to build homebuilt aircraft the first being a vari eze which was awarded grand champion oshkosh 79 and also rewarded Burt Rutan a design award. So I understand the dedication that was involved in your project and sad to hear of it not being produced. My father has since passed but has left behind a absolute gem of a craft his labour of love so to speak and judging by your emotions would be something you would very much appreciate. keep up the great work always enjoy your casts
Munro & Associates has 35+ plus in aerospace, automotive, defense, marine, medical devices, heavy industrial machinery, and consumer product industries. leandesign.com/
This was way ahead of its time, It's a great story. Thanks for sharing it!
Thanks for sharing the story Sandy. It has come up over the years and am thankful you have done an episode sharing the story. I would say it is not a flop at all, more a victim of outside circumstance!! It is an awesome plane and would love to have piloted it manually and riden in autonomous mode. It seems like a great exercise in first principles thinking! When you get your next sit-down with Elon you should prep him to chat about it, seems right up his alley. They have the motor/ battery portion covered. well, the batts should come one maybe? anyhow, thanks again for sharing the story and sorry it didn't get of the ground first time around! hopefully it will be the tesla autonomous air taxi🤞🤞~ Roger
Thanks Sandy for sharing. Damn innovative concept and design you have there!
Thank you for sharing your engineering skills. Anything that makes noise isn't the most energy-efficient. That looks like how tug boats boost their propulsion power in water liquid too.
Hey Sandy!👋
Thank you for sharing your story of what Should have been a Great addition to General Aviation!👍
So sorry to hear that the Debacle of 2008 took out this project!😕
On a much smaller personal scale, the same BS that took out your aircraft, was responsible for causing my Pension from TRW and both of my 401k plans from other companies, to Evaporate to NOTHING!
So many of us were devastated by the fallout of the Corporate Greed that caused the 2008 collapse!🤬
Glad that you were still able to Prosper and provide us and your Clients with Interesting and Useful Product!
Thank You!👍
Mike in San Diego.🌞🎸🚀🖖
I hope your videos inspired a new generation of Engineers.
Good stuff Sandy , interesting plane some cool concepts.
I had a great time working with you on that project. Amanda still talks about demoing the engine.
I been looking to build a plane. But nothing is peaking my interest. Even rv10 is blah…. With 50yr old tech.
I’m a eaa461 member, our hanger builds planes.
Could we kick start this thing into a kit plane!!!!??!
The samurai Predator is amazing :)
Been waiting for this since i saw it being displayed in the 'background' of prior content, so obviously.😎
Similar thing happened to Raytheon. They and Burt Rutan created the Starship prop plane with composites and a glass cockpit. When that came out, those were unproven technologies according to the FAA despite a solid safety record in places like the military. The FAA put so many stipulations on it that they made it too heavy and too expensive. The irony is that these are where the industry is going. We need proper regulation as opposed to more regulation. Welcome to why the aviation industry essentially died in the US.
Palwaukee Airport has a new name, but it’s still on the corner of “Pal” and “Waukee” roads! That’s Palatine Road and Milwaukee Road. Many things on the north west side of Chicago are easy to find, because they are named for intersecting streets. . .
Hi Sandy, thank you for sharing your story and ideas. I hope some company and investors can pick this up and make it happen.
What a brilliant idea Sandy. Sad. Reminds a bit of the Avro Arrow story. Good video, as always. Thank you! 🇨🇦
What an epic story! I hate that it didn’t come to fruition…but thank you for sharing a defeat. It should give us all hope to keep moving forward!!
Thank you for sharing the story. Others looks like they’ve said the same thing :-) pretty awesome project. Seems like it could be something worthwhile for future opportunities. :-) many innovative ideas!!
Wow! I am so sorry Sandy! And I will follow on with the many others by saying a big Thank You for sharing! Just a thought, there have been many advancements in materials since 2008, how about doing one with electric and carbon fiber? Also maybe do a video on why airplanes are so dad-gone expensive? In the 50's/60's P.S. or P.M. had issues where it seemed like we were going to have an airplane in every garage? What ever happen to that? On my bucket list is to meet you some day..., but I know your so busy. I wish you and your family (and Team) a very Merry Christmas and a safe and Happy New Year!
Thank you Sandy
Wow, just wonderful to hear this story. I wish money was not an issue as this seems like a plane that would still have a market today!
Thanks 4 video!
great story, thanks for sharing. You put together others' great ideas into 1 airplane. The deicing was first done just like that in the 1920s racing seaplanes. There's been other ducted fan aircraft but they have been one offs. Molt Taylor and others have put the prop in the back, but not as a ducted fan. I really liked the door idea for passengers.
Most ducted fan fixed-wing aircraft have just been experimentals or prototype, with the notable exception being the Edgley EA-7 Optica, which went into limited production.
The RFB Fantrainer was a production aircraft, with 50 built. It was less like the Paradigm than the Optica and was turbine powered, but used a pusher fan.
Although it was just a prototype, the PJ-II Dreamer was an interesting example, because it has not just the rear ducted fan (actually two of them), but is powered by a GM LS engine like the Paradigm.
Finally the SeaBee!
So brilliant, and absolutely the right demographic to please without question. Someday, perhaps? Thank you for sharing that Sandy.
I love the ducted pusher design on this plane. Very cool and unusual. Of course pushers are not great for dirt since wheels tend to kick up debris into the blades.
Ducted fans certainly look cool. They're unusual for good reasons.
Gosh! SANDY!!! What a great design with tremendous heartbreak. I guess the concept has too much competition these days.
Fascinating. Thank you. (I was wondering what the SeaBee [one of my dad's favorite planes] was doing in the background of the Model S motor tear-down.)
OMG - is there any way you would resurrect this project? As a kit builder, EAAer, long time Republic Seabee fan I see your vision - it still has legs today!
That duct almost certainly means a larger rudder is needed for spin recovery.
Sandy, Thanks for sharing a small part of your story. I hope you will do a V2 and talk more about NASA and SCATS. Last time the FAA and NASA had any general aviation interest. Your dream of autonomous flight is going to happy and hopefully very soon. The current interest in EVTOL designs will accomplish most of what you were trying to bring to market. Unfortunately the FAA is not even ready for the technology and the increase in volume. They want to manage these aircraft like helicopters and still have ATC control.
I hope you will do another video and tell more of the story. It deserves to be captured for history.
There is a lot of thought in that development model. The fuselage is very well designed for favorable pressure gradients. The wing, constant chord rectangular "Hershey bar" of high lift, forward camber design could probably use some improvements. Although it is probably easy to mfg, and has docile enough stall behavior. I'm never been a fan of shrouded prop-fans. Although they have several benefits, the drawbacks are also real. I'm sure it provides some additional stability.
Overall, a really neat design.
Seems like a natural for crowd funding since partial ownership would suggest that smaller investors could benefit. Thanks for not only the memories you shared but for the dreams you nurture because we are still in need of affordable point to point air transport on that scale, maybe more than ever before as large scale air transport continues to a bigger and bigger turnoff. Cheerio
I think the Seabee is interesting, and I appreciate the insight into its construction.
I also like Munro's aircraft design, and I appreciate Sandy sharing the story, although I understand why it would probably not work as well as hoped.
Thanks for sharing as a pilot this makes me sad that this did not come to fruition.
The vast majority of aircraft designs never make it to certification and production. This is largely due to the regulatory frame work that ultimately makes it much more expensive then it needs to be. The sport plane rule has relived this significantly for the very small aircraft that qualify under that rule (just for reference, these are generally 2 seat, light and low horsepower), but for anything else the crushing cost and time involved with certification is still the limiting factor that stifles innovation. This leads us to the tired, but still true maxim: How do you make a billion dollars in aviation? Start with two billion.
Yet the 737 Max was "certified" and then crashed several times.
This should fly one day!
That is FANTASTIC corrosion resistance for a seaplane used in saltwater.
I've never been a fan of rivets myself. More in favor of composites. Especially glass.
This gives me a renewed or new appreciation of this weird airplane. Always thought these were strange and mediocre.
Fascinating!
Sandy this is still a viable craft, with development in new materials and giga press systems, it should be produced, its roll as a hopper over medium distances between air ports city to city routs, with final destination using robo taxies, mass of uses 👍
That is a sad situation. The aircraft model looks excellent, and visibility forward as well as down would be great. I used to fly the Shorts 330 and 360, not esthetically pleasing airplanes, but getting into and out of the pilot seats was so easy. Instead of stepping over the center pedestal. you'd just walk around the outboard edge of either seat because the cockpit was so wide. Your model looks similar in just that regard because there's space between the outboard edge of the seat and the side of the fuselage.
Sandy needs to start the Paradigm over again. I think it would sell. Great ideas.❤😂
So brilliant! Maybe someday Sandy…
Thank you for sharing. It would have been a great plane.
Seems like a great contender to pick it back up and continue with the three engine options while emphasizing electric given your stated range/flight times.
Sandy you are truly an inspiration! You share more info than Elon, this story bumps you to the top. What are meet and greet tickets with Sandy going for now?
As a former aircraft owner, there are a few points I’d like to point out. That air cooled engine can produce 75% power at 2200 rpm ALL DAY LONG. That Corvette engine puts out its power at 5000+ rpm; you CANNOT turn a propeller at that rate. . . The prop tips would be breaking the sound barrier. I also owned a high performance Camaro Z28. . . 264 Hp at the rear wheels. Thing is. . . At 70mph, that engine might have actually been producing 30hp. NASCAR engines run at close to 100%. . . an hopefully last a 500 mile race.
Sandy, go out and get your pilot’s licence. It will be an eye opener
According to another commenter the Seabee V8 conversion uses a 1.4:1 reduction drive, and of course the engine is not run at 5,000 RPM. In the Munro design the drive is direct, but the smaller-diameter ducted fan would be suitable for the 3,500 RPM used.
An LS1 (the Corvette engine of the era) would produce peak power at over 5,000 RPM, but would be operated around the peak torque speed or lower in either the Seabee or the Paradigm. 2004 Corvette specs include peak torque of 360 lb-ft @ 4,000 RPM, and at the 3,500 RPM that Sandy mentioned for the Paradigm it could produce about 240 HP... although of course that would be at full load.
Developing an efficient ducted fan is a huge can of worms. It’s probably doable but I see no evidence of that having been even understood here.
Also a drive shaft from a mid mounted engine to a pusher ducted fan has huge engineering obstacles. It looks simple, it’s just not. Torsional vibration and resonance with the ducted fan would be charting new territory.
The construction methods of Republic aircraft are intriguing but not well enough understood here to realize the benefit in this application.
In short, it was more than Lehman Brothers failure that brought about the demise of this intriguing concept. In a fantasy world of unlimited engineering resources this machine could have been developed into a safe enough machine, but vastly larger sums of money would need to be lost then the product and its assets would need to be bought out of bankruptcy at pennies on the dollar in order for the economics of this design to ever be realized. I hate the realities of bringing an aircraft to market.
Reminds me of the RFB Fantrainer with the rear ducted fan design.