Still some way to go in simulating the effectiveness of CIWS. In real life those things demolish everything and the best chance for a successful attack is if you engage them from multiple directions. Not to mention a carrier is never by itself but accompanied by a number of the outstanding Arleigh Burke's. That layered system is pretty hard to saturate, and you'd probably need dozens of missiles. Sorry for the long text.
I can guarantee you that nowadays you can't kill anything with a CIWS using Harpoons. Not even sure how you would actually, they indeed magic shield anything flying at them
Ignoring the fact that it took said sub multiple times to do so and its achievement of it is laughable if you compare it to a very noisy november class sub doing the same thing to a US carrier.
Not nitpicking but the RB-15 was a fire-and-forget missile with a range just shy of 40 miles. It's pretty insane considering the Viggen is from the late 60's (I know the missile isn't tho) The AJS 37 still used the CK computer from the 60's. It's amazing when you think about it
XO: Captain! Incoming long-range ASM! Shall we begin Phoenix Fire? Captain: Commander, can the computer identify? XO: Computer identifies enemy ASM as an American AGM-84 Harpoon, sir! Captain: Negative on the Phoenix Fire Commander. It would take one hundred Harpoon hits to sink us, it's just not worth the ammunition. Don't worry, it'll buff out. XO: Aye sir! Stand down CWIS! And THAT is why the Harpoon doesn't trigger CWIS. :D
The reason ciws doesnt shoot at harpoon is the iff built in to each of the american systems. There is of course a manual override in the ciws that will allow it to fire but in dcs your the pilot firing the harpoon not the fc running the ciws board. So you only get the results of an american ciws in auto seeing a no shoot tagged harpoon.
Wow, this still uses the old Mk I of RBS-15 and we are now at Mk IV (nickname Gungnir - the name of Odins spear). In addition its main features are actually its capabilities to operate in complicated geometries (over mixed land and sea terrain in archipelagoes) and complicated weather (sleet, different types of fog, rain, etc).
There might be a bug with how ships track and shoot missiles atm. I've noticed with the Viggen, playing the exact same mission several times in a row, the same ship would sometimes fire at the RB-15 with its CIWS and sometimes it would not even try. I haven't nailed down the exact circumstances but the times it did fire were when I fired my missiles at the very extreme edge of maximum range.
I noticed that the damage on Harpoons was minimal. However due to them having to fly higher until they see their target, I found they were easy to be shot down by missiles by Russian Frigates.
lamboman yea I think that the harpoon will not need to cruise so close if it’s directed by a ground radar. I’m imagining it being able to skim the surface the whole flight which would make it go much lower to the ground. It still may be easy to shoot down for some ships but I’d imagine cruisers and destroyers would really require a big attack with multiple missiles from different launch platforms to have a high chance of destroying their target.
You could do a Deck attack on the Stennis by guiding it in manually :p don't let it off the rails and fly that thing in yourself. Also, watching the RB15 weaving and the CWIS desperately trying to shoot it down was epic.
You are getting very scientific Cap, I approve... Sea Eagle = development of the Martel that the lovely Buccaneers used, sort of anyway. Used inertial autopilot to get in the general area of the target ship ( little bit like DCS implementation ) then terminal guidance by it's own radar seeker
One key advantage of the Harpoon is that you can carry four of them on a Hornet vs only two Rb 15 on a Viggen. But that advantage is currently nullified by the fact that not even four Harpoons does as much damage as one Rb 15. It takes three Harpoons just to sink one Molniya.
I thought of another comparison you guys could do. Terrain following. I was just testing the terrain following of the Sea Eagle and it was pretty impressive. Although, not perfect. Just wondering how it stacked up to the other anti-ship missiles.
The harpoon is a true sea skimmer as it was made originally made to sink surfaced subs back in the early 70s,that is why the ciws have difficulty seeing them.
Did you leave out the rb-04 on purpose because it takes nothing to set up or because the rb-15f is more modern? Or did you just forget about it? Anyway great video showing the strength of every missile
Cool video as far as i can understand the reason the RB-15F has such a low alt is because it was designed to be dropped at a low alt (at least during the Viggen era). planes would use land to hide their approach then launch the missiles at the designated waypoint and then return fast towards land...letting the missiles use it's navigation system plus the missile started off as a ship born missile then converted for air plane use can't find any info on the RB-15F having a pop-up function....AI version bug?
That's odd, the RB-15 can actually be launched between 50 and 2000 meters (and the Viggen is perfectly capable of doing so) and at a pretty good standoff range. It was also intended for the Gripen, but then was implemented in the Viggen when the Gripen was delayed. It's the RB-04 that can only be dropped at extremely low altitude.
@@TLTeo not only intended for but used by the Gripen i've actually been on a team mounting and dismounting a live RB-15 on a Gripen .....never seen us guys work so quietly and methodically then that time lol specially as the team on the other wing was doing the same but with a live BK 90
The Harpoon cruising altitude doesn't seem correct. It's supposed to be a sea-skimming missile like the RB-15 or the Sea Eagle. As the missile is implemented now, it becomes a target for enemy air defenses before the Harpoon's RADAR has a chance to acquire the target and descend to terminal flight. I'm not sure where Eagle Dynamics is getting their information about how this missile behaves, but this just doesn't seem right.
I didn't come away watching this feeling like a really good comparison was done. Why not reset the mission after each missile type? Seems like there's too many variables to do a fair comparison when the ship is in a different state after each engagement. And given that the effectiveness of the defenses are in some way chance based, assigning a binary value as to whether they can be targeted or not seems unfounded. Overall, didn't come away with any good sense of what's more effective, the Harpoon or the Rb-15F. (Given the Sea Eagle's limitations in game, this seems like a complete non-starter in multiplayer.)
I believe you missed the part where he said he tested it for hours over multiple scenarios before recording the video. He said the recorded testing in the video was just for fun.
no we are completely full. Lots of days open to all: - - Tues 1800GMT Arma 3 - Thurs 1800GMT IL-2 - Thurs 1930GMT DCS - Fri 1800GMT Arma 3 - Sun 1800GMT DCS This weekly schedule is open to all.
CAP, I read that in Mulitplayer the DCS software for calculating weapons performance is based on the client's machine, not on the server. So is a "fast" PC more accurate with missles than a "slow" PC in Mulitplayer? You could test with slow machine at "Low" and "High" graphic settings, measured by the FPS and the number of accurate missle hits (use the lame Russian 27ER, it not too accurate to start with). I would also test at
Neither the RB04 or 15 works the same for AI vs player. Probably made it easy on themself when developing it for DCS. Personally I haven't had much luck with programing heights with RB15 BUT if you use preplaned/advanced drop mode it will fly at whatever altitude you drop it at unit it hits its programd descend point. So you can launch it over land and have it descend after going feet wet. Great comparison, mabey zoom in alitle more on the data chart next time 🤓
@@grimreapers At this point if ED does not recognize your hard work and tireless promotion of this game and give you the viper then there is no justice in this world!
Those missiles would not be able to make it through the dense spray kicked up by the CIWS, which is something that perhaps they were not allowed to model. It effectively blinds IR sensors as well as on board radars. Salt water is very good at absorbing radar signals. The density of the spray would also be enough to disrupt the effectiveness of lift surfaces as well, just as exploding shells are creating massive air pressure differences. They tumble into the sea.
@68K true enough. The radar has to be able to see the missile in sea swells, and it seems the Russian fire control radar was not being actively monitored. Positively identifying and isolating a track among the false noise requires some skill. I suspect the most updated systems use AI to assist with this. The Moskva almost certainly lacked this capability. A focused human radar operator is required, along with well functioning radar. Neither is a certainty in the Russian Navy
@68K well, the Russian CIWS systems (Kashtan) has a multi-band all-weather radar that should quickly move from search to track, but my guess is that someone needs to manually put it in fully automatic mode to let the fire control radar take over. Someone needs to recognize the threat, and I doubt anyone knew the ship was under attack until the missile struck.
Can't tell about Harpoons, but Robot 15 will simply stay on the previous intercept course if the lock is lost, until it either finds a target again or hits something.
6:48 its called American Bios. In War thunder and World of tanks its Russian Bios. But in DCS we got the upperhand you can see that with Planes and Missiles in the game very often.
Impressive how good the RB15 was (and a bit embarassing for BAe) always impressed how good Sweedish kit turns out to be.
Apparently the Sea Eagle was withdrawn from service by the MOD in 2000.
@@alanjenkins1508 ..and SAAB has a completly newdesign missile called RBS-15 MK4 "Gungnir" with a 300+ km range.
RBS15 MK1: warhead 200kg, range +80km (1985)
RBS15 MK4: warhead 300kg, range +300km (2020)
Cap - proper term for "snaking" is called "Terminal Weave"
Still some way to go in simulating the effectiveness of CIWS. In real life those things demolish everything and the best chance for a successful attack is if you engage them from multiple directions. Not to mention a carrier is never by itself but accompanied by a number of the outstanding Arleigh Burke's. That layered system is pretty hard to saturate, and you'd probably need dozens of missiles. Sorry for the long text.
I can guarantee you that nowadays you can't kill anything with a CIWS using Harpoons. Not even sure how you would actually, they indeed magic shield anything flying at them
... dozens of missiles, or one swedish submarine 😁
Ignoring the fact that it took said sub multiple times to do so and its achievement of it is laughable if you compare it to a very noisy november class sub doing the same thing to a US carrier.
Seems like this is definitely one to do again, and one to compare all ASMs with one another. Thanks for your hard work!
roger
Not nitpicking but the RB-15 was a fire-and-forget missile with a range just shy of 40 miles. It's pretty insane considering the Viggen is from the late 60's (I know the missile isn't tho) The AJS 37 still used the CK computer from the 60's. It's amazing when you think about it
yeah its truely is, but ts not realy that unusally i mean america is usein the minuet man icbm that thing is from the 60s or 70s but its still amezing
RB-15 for life
XO: Captain! Incoming long-range ASM! Shall we begin Phoenix Fire?
Captain: Commander, can the computer identify?
XO: Computer identifies enemy ASM as an American AGM-84 Harpoon, sir!
Captain: Negative on the Phoenix Fire Commander. It would take one hundred Harpoon hits to sink us, it's just not worth the ammunition. Don't worry, it'll buff out.
XO: Aye sir! Stand down CWIS!
And THAT is why the Harpoon doesn't trigger CWIS. :D
I got to say two videos in a day is something that I didn't expect . But always welcome .
The reason ciws doesnt shoot at harpoon is the iff built in to each of the american systems. There is of course a manual override in the ciws that will allow it to fire but in dcs your the pilot firing the harpoon not the fc running the ciws board. So you only get the results of an american ciws in auto seeing a no shoot tagged harpoon.
SAAB Makes great missiles👍🏻
Well todays RBS15 has a range of 300km....
Wow, this still uses the old Mk I of RBS-15 and we are now at Mk IV (nickname Gungnir - the name of Odins spear). In addition its main features are actually its capabilities to operate in complicated geometries (over mixed land and sea terrain in archipelagoes) and complicated weather (sleet, different types of fog, rain, etc).
There might be a bug with how ships track and shoot missiles atm. I've noticed with the Viggen, playing the exact same mission several times in a row, the same ship would sometimes fire at the RB-15 with its CIWS and sometimes it would not even try. I haven't nailed down the exact circumstances but the times it did fire were when I fired my missiles at the very extreme edge of maximum range.
currently u need to give each individual harpoon its settings even if the display says otherwise. you can use step to double check each one as needed
rgr thx
Do another with the jf17 anti ship
I noticed that the damage on Harpoons was minimal. However due to them having to fly higher until they see their target, I found they were easy to be shot down by missiles by Russian Frigates.
Same for Chinese frigates as well. The Harpoon's high cruise altitude is definitely not a pro when it comes to that.
lamboman yea I think that the harpoon will not need to cruise so close if it’s directed by a ground radar. I’m imagining it being able to skim the surface the whole flight which would make it go much lower to the ground. It still may be easy to shoot down for some ships but I’d imagine cruisers and destroyers would really require a big attack with multiple missiles from different launch platforms to have a high chance of destroying their target.
You could do a Deck attack on the Stennis by guiding it in manually :p don't let it off the rails and fly that thing in yourself.
Also, watching the RB15 weaving and the CWIS desperately trying to shoot it down was epic.
The radar cross-section of modern missles varies considerably. None of them are true stealth, but observability varies a bunch.
Copy
Rb04 they are missing
You are getting very scientific Cap, I approve...
Sea Eagle = development of the Martel that the lovely Buccaneers used, sort of anyway. Used inertial autopilot to get in the general area of the target ship ( little bit like DCS implementation ) then terminal guidance by it's own radar seeker
Cool thx
I would love to see a updated comparison with the LRASM included.
The Russian aircraft carrier is 100% capable shooting down harpoons. I tested it
rgr
One key advantage of the Harpoon is that you can carry four of them on a Hornet vs only two Rb 15 on a Viggen. But that advantage is currently nullified by the fact that not even four Harpoons does as much damage as one Rb 15. It takes three Harpoons just to sink one Molniya.
thats because the damage model is omega fucked atm. harpoon does ~440 damage and the rb15 does 1750.
Ha ha ha👍🏻
CWIS programming probably just doesn't recognize the missile yet.
1% you say? Excuse me.
Ahem... Ground Crew, kindly remove the 48s and strap those JSOWs back on please.
“Rearming Complete”
Love your videos. Thank you. Keep up the good work
I thought of another comparison you guys could do. Terrain following. I was just testing the terrain following of the Sea Eagle and it was pretty impressive. Although, not perfect. Just wondering how it stacked up to the other anti-ship missiles.
I never knew they can maneuver to avoid AA fires until now
The Rbs15 F(MKIII) is obsolete now, replaced by the Rbs15 MK4 Gungnir which is highly updated.
rgr
I think it should be the AGM 84D in the title right ? :D
Hahhaha though the same
The AGM-48 was an air launched ballistic missile with a 1 megaton nuclear warhead. That'd probably work as an anti-ship missile too I guess
LMAO
@@llamallama1509 🤣🤣🤣
#Capattack
I thought I was just a crap pilot...turns out I had faulty munitions.
#anyonesFaultButMine
you should have thought of recreating the Falklands.
can you redo this video as we got the C-802AK and i assume the missiles got updated now
rgr
The harpoon is a true sea skimmer as it was made originally made to sink surfaced subs back in the early 70s,that is why the ciws have difficulty seeing them.
Cap will you update/retest Harpoon?
And now you gotta add the 802 in a few weeks
Did you leave out the rb-04 on purpose because it takes nothing to set up or because the rb-15f is more modern? Or did you just forget about it?
Anyway great video showing the strength of every missile
TBH I just put in what the viewer requested. Probably should have included the 04 now I think about it...
Eh the RB-04 is a good bit less capable than the other 3.
Cool video
as far as i can understand the reason the RB-15F has such a low alt is because it was designed to be dropped at a low
alt (at least during the Viggen era). planes would use land to hide their approach then launch the missiles at the designated waypoint
and then return fast towards land...letting the missiles use it's navigation system
plus the missile started off as a ship born missile then converted for air plane use
can't find any info on the RB-15F having a pop-up function....AI version bug?
That's odd, the RB-15 can actually be launched between 50 and 2000 meters (and the Viggen is perfectly capable of doing so) and at a pretty good standoff range. It was also intended for the Gripen, but then was implemented in the Viggen when the Gripen was delayed. It's the RB-04 that can only be dropped at extremely low altitude.
@@TLTeo not only intended for but used by the Gripen
i've actually been on a team mounting and dismounting a live RB-15 on a Gripen .....never seen us guys work so quietly and methodically then that time lol
specially as the team on the other wing was doing the same but with a live BK 90
The Harpoon cruising altitude doesn't seem correct. It's supposed to be a sea-skimming missile like the RB-15 or the Sea Eagle. As the missile is implemented now, it becomes a target for enemy air defenses before the Harpoon's RADAR has a chance to acquire the target and descend to terminal flight. I'm not sure where Eagle Dynamics is getting their information about how this missile behaves, but this just doesn't seem right.
OK.. Do we get the mass flight 100 harpoons to sink the ship video or not?
I acyually like the green of of Russian control panels, it makes the instruments easier to find.
What plane is this?
How about the Kormoran?
Waiting for the Super Etendard module and the Exocet missile
Does any anti ship missile work on low fidelity planes?
no
Maybe it doesn't see the harpoon because its considered friendly.
Good point
How about testing the damage and survivability for the 802AK and AKG?
I hope the nuclear reactor will be alright
lol
That's a fun thought though, I believe they are built so in case of sinking they flood with water and it stops the reaction
I didn't come away watching this feeling like a really good comparison was done. Why not reset the mission after each missile type? Seems like there's too many variables to do a fair comparison when the ship is in a different state after each engagement. And given that the effectiveness of the defenses are in some way chance based, assigning a binary value as to whether they can be targeted or not seems unfounded. Overall, didn't come away with any good sense of what's more effective, the Harpoon or the Rb-15F. (Given the Sea Eagle's limitations in game, this seems like a complete non-starter in multiplayer.)
I believe you missed the part where he said he tested it for hours over multiple scenarios before recording the video. He said the recorded testing in the video was just for fun.
yo cap,is there an open day for new recruits yet?
no we are completely full. Lots of days open to all: -
- Tues 1800GMT Arma 3
- Thurs 1800GMT IL-2
- Thurs 1930GMT DCS
- Fri 1800GMT Arma 3
- Sun 1800GMT DCS
This weekly schedule is open to all.
literally an in-air torpedo
RB-15 is the best atm.
Where TF is the air intake for these jet powered anti-ship cruise missiles ???
the C802 ak missing here
CAP, I read that in Mulitplayer the DCS software for calculating weapons performance is based on the client's machine, not on the server. So is a "fast" PC more accurate with missles than a "slow" PC in Mulitplayer?
You could test with slow machine at "Low" and "High" graphic settings, measured by the FPS and the number of accurate missle hits (use the lame Russian 27ER, it not too accurate to start with). I would also test at
Neither the RB04 or 15 works the same for AI vs player. Probably made it easy on themself when developing it for DCS. Personally I haven't had much luck with programing heights with RB15 BUT if you use preplaned/advanced drop mode it will fly at whatever altitude you drop it at unit it hits its programd descend point. So you can launch it over land and have it descend after going feet wet. Great comparison, mabey zoom in alitle more on the data chart next time 🤓
Thanks
Can you buy and review to us the knew dcs f-16c viper ?
I am hoping someone will buy it for me please! xx
@@grimreapers At this point if ED does not recognize your hard work and tireless promotion of this game and give you the viper then there is no justice in this world!
cant wait for the exocet !
It's gonna get fixed... 5 months later: still not fixed. And it's as simple as increasing a number.
lol fair point
I'm sorry but many of the spreadsheet statistics are WAY off
what an incredibly useful comment. Just out of curiosity, how long did you ponder such brilliant insight before posting?
To add a pop-up. check this vid: th-cam.com/video/p-auAv5pTng/w-d-xo.html
thx!!!
Belt armor and deck armor would help immensely with sea skimming and top attack missiles respectfully.
U forgot krom-66 missile which is an anti ship missile
really? cool, didn;t realise
Need to fix that title there Cap
Yep
cpy thx
Those missiles would not be able to make it through the dense spray kicked up by the CIWS, which is something that perhaps they were not allowed to model. It effectively blinds IR sensors as well as on board radars. Salt water is very good at absorbing radar signals. The density of the spray would also be enough to disrupt the effectiveness of lift surfaces as well, just as exploding shells are creating massive air pressure differences. They tumble into the sea.
@68K true enough. The radar has to be able to see the missile in sea swells, and it seems the Russian fire control radar was not being actively monitored. Positively identifying and isolating a track among the false noise requires some skill. I suspect the most updated systems use AI to assist with this. The Moskva almost certainly lacked this capability. A focused human radar operator is required, along with well functioning radar. Neither is a certainty in the Russian Navy
@68K well, the Russian CIWS systems (Kashtan) has a multi-band all-weather radar that should quickly move from search to track, but my guess is that someone needs to manually put it in fully automatic mode to let the fire control radar take over. Someone needs to recognize the threat, and I doubt anyone knew the ship was under attack until the missile struck.
Can't tell about Harpoons, but Robot 15 will simply stay on the previous intercept course if the lock is lost, until it either finds a target again or hits something.
6:48 its called American Bios. In War thunder and World of tanks its Russian Bios. But in DCS we got the upperhand you can see that with Planes and Missiles in the game very often.
Đi đúng hướng
Fix title bro
To bad they haven't given Russians an anti ship missiles, they are in great need of one
They need to add the KS-172 missile.
@@Danofcanada Can many of the Russian aircraft in DCS carry them? Thxs Ken
@@timmunroe4873 Well they're carried but the SU-27s series of jets in real life. So logically the SU-27 and SU-33.
@@Danofcanada The Novator AWACS killer isn't real - nobody has heard or seen anything about that sledgehammer for 15 years. Dead.
The kh-58 will put a hurting on anything emitting radar. So, limited antiship exists.
LOL. You'll never get your aircraft or ship close enough to a US carrier to even launch your AShM.
🇺🇲🇬🇧🇪🇺🇯🇵🇰🇷🇭🇲🇨🇦🇮🇳🇨🇵🇩🇪🌐NATO J10