I already see some people bringing up the Sapper as an example of a weapon designed only to counter 1 class- So let me stop you RIGHT THERE! Yes, it is. Maybe in a perfect world the Sapper would have other uses but it's absolutely not in the same camp as the Razorback, Danger Shield, or Spy-cicle. The Sapper is just an extra tool Spy has by default. He isn't giving up anything to use it. He isn't made worse if the enemy team has no Engineers. And it doesn't allow him to counter one of his counters (at least not really). The entire Spy-Engineer dynamic from the get go has been built around Spy being a threat to Engineer and his buildings. And the Sapper is a big part of what allows him to be a threat to Engineers. The Sniper-Spy dynamic ISN'T built around Sniper not being able to be backstabbed.
Oh add this to the potential fix for the razorback Reduce damage from behind and all melee weapons hitting the razorback will do the same thing as a blocked melee weapon making sniper retreating from an enemy at close range much much more easier and riskier for more deadly melee base sub class like demoknight and trolldier.
Main difference is this: An engineer nest is probably the most important part of the defense. so it needs a specific counter. A spy backstab is NOT the most important part of the offense, so it having a class specific counter is stupid
Well. The razor back can still be useless even with spies on the other team. Just because there is a game with snipers and spies doesn't mean their paths will ever meet. The enemy spy might not be able to even find the sniper and their back or the spy might not even be skilled enough to get anywhere close to the sniper. Also, sniper sometimes is always dead thanks to the enemy team's sniper.
To be fair, from time to time I intentionally stab razorbacks. Supprisingly often the enemy doesn't even notice, making the following actual stab quite bit funnier.
@@egg_crateI remember when I got that achievement I was brand new in tf2 and didnt know what a razorback was i thought it was a bug lmao but I still ended up killing the sniper with the help of my teammates pushing
the razorback was given to the sniper and not any other class because he's the only one whose whole playstyle is based off of him minimizing his field of vision
Does that make it well designed or well balanced though? Sniper has that drawback for a reason. Heavy's whole playstyle is built around him being tanky and having high health. But he has the drawback of being slow and vulnerable to the insta kill classes. The Razorback is like the equivalent of giving Heavy a passive secondary to block headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental design problems.
@@kekopara6822 which comes at the cost of his health, and therefore his survivability, and this downside is maintained for a period of time after the weapon is switched off of. Your point?
@@kekopara6822 Does Heavy have a passive secondary that makes him faster for the only drawback of losing his secondary? No. The steak has the melee restriction and the GRU lower your health. And even if he did, making Heavy faster does not only affect 1 class. The Razorback exists purely to screw over Spy and nothing else. Which is why I gave the example of a secondary to make Heavy immune to headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental flaws and no one would reasonably claim that would be good for the game.
@@che595 yep but gun kills only give 1 point .. backstabs are worth 2. And all that matters is getting big score, so they can use it as justification of contributing when they lose.. Its just people crying about getting counter played.. who don't understand the concept of counter play thus it's unfair, because expecting them to learn and grow is asking to much.. I mean they pretend the ambassador was not released in the same update, and exists solely so level the playing field against snipers using the razorback back. They don't loom at the big picture, just tunnel vision on the one item. Without considering interactions with other items.
While the old Danger Shield had a broader use than its current version, I still would say that the old version's anti-Sniper potential had a greater presence than the current version's anti pyro potential. I mean all the danger shield is doing is removing a minor annoyance vs. a major advantage in Sniper duels. But the thing the old Danger Shield and Razorback have in common is how they let Snipers play in a more careless style because they don't have to worry about being countered. While not meant to counter any specific class, the old Ambassador/Deadringer/Kunai Spy was a combo that revolved specifically around not being punished for reckless behavior and thus being able to play in a way that a Spy normally cannot play. Really any weapon that makes a class strong when they are otherwise weak can be problematic and often will have trouble being properly balanced
God, don’t get me started with the old Darwin’s. I hate that I had to damage the Sniper prior to a Sniper duel because if I don’t, I’m basically headshot food, even if I hit the headshot first. It’s especially annoying against good Snipers. While I feel the Razorback fulfills this role for Spies, I feel it isn’t as bad as the old (or new) Darwin’s, since any of the Spy’s guns, especially the Revolver and Ambassador, can easily take care of a Sniper. Sniper can’t really defend himself too well in close quarters, even more so without a reliable secondary. However, I do agree that certain situations make shooting a Sniper dangerous or impossible, but at least there’s some counterplay. Overall, the Razorback needs a rework, since its purpose is too niche and promotes a “set and forget it” mentality against Spies.
I personally wish the DDS still had its anti-sniper purpose. Though instead of just straight up reducing bullet damage it should instead reduce all non-headshot bullet damage. Simply put, if it's a full charge body shot, it'll deal whatever a quick scope head shot used to do before, leaving you at I think 3 hp. Meanwhile a quick scope headshot should just kill you. Personally I think it's a lot better than the current anti-Scorch Shot DDS, because that's all it's good for, and it's definitely a nerf compared to pre Jungle Inferno
Sniper is the most dangerous class in the game yet it seems like his unlocks were balanced around the common 2fort Snipers that take a minute to line up a shot only to miss anyway
And yet this community when discussing about weapon balance often overlook how broken a weapon can be in the hands of a pro. So they make up these ridiculous weapons that just offer insane upsides while having minimal/irrelavant downsides. Valve surely don't know how to balance a lot of shit but I'm still glad they will never let the community jinx with weapon stats.
@@owenchafer1083in my opinion good balancing is somthing like the direct hit balanced for medium and pro players In the hands of a noob it’s a direct downgrade from sock because it does no damage if you miss In the hands of a decent player it’s situationally better but still usually worse than stock because now you are better in 1v1s and certain targets like sentry’s and heavy’s but you still have less crowd control and you will still miss sometimes And In the hands of a theoretically perfect player it’s incredibly good and better in some cases but still doesn’t overshadow stock because splash damage is such a useful tool for holding choke points and also fighting groups of players A side grade should reward pros who can master it with unique and powerful options but even at their best shouldn’t overshadow stock without having serious weak points to make up for it
@@owenchafer1083You always balance based off of the top. When you don't, you get cases like the Pig from Dead by Daylight. Imagine a universe where people think Ganondorf needs a nerf.
@@blueyandicyabsolutely not, you never balance for the top unless you want a boring game with poor balance for 99% of people, pro players do not matter
Make it so when you get backstabbed, you're locked into using your melee weapon for a short duration so you have to duel the spy essentially. It'd give more of a reason for the spy to yell "Lets settle this like gentlemen!"
You can actually get backstabbed with the razorback and not realize it if you are super concentrated on your sniping. But if you get locked in melee out of nowhere, that will be a braindead indicator that a Spy is behind you
You stab the sniper, he turns around and runs blindly at you, you trickstab him. That's typically how it goes. When stabbing crowds, stab the sniper last, unless your keeping a soldier alive for a sick surf.
The real flaw of having that resistance from behind mechanic is the sloppy hit registration. The frustration of facestabs is bad enough, and having that chance against a pub stomping sniper would be a nightmare. In a perfect world with perfect hit registration it would be a very neat mechanic, but tf2 is far from perfect in that regard.
what registers as 'the back' in of itself is rather iffy. We're all familiar with the facestab and the nearly 180 degree range a backstab can trigger, but then you have weapons like the backburner or back scatter that seem to only deal the bonus damage if you hit your target at a straight 90 degree angle.
Fighting snipers in general is already a stupid concept. Because he is a class specialises in long-range combat where everyone else is balanced around mid-close range. In theory that alone is broken enough. A good sniper shreds the other team much more than an equally skilled soldier or heavy.
Sniper is a class that innately is built on, basically, interacting with enemies at a range they cannot interact back. Makes sense to make them VERY weak to being interacted with to compensate.
I hate the Darwin Danger Shield and Jarate for this reason. Ok, I'm playing Pyro, I'm bad at long range. But then when I finally manage to get in close range of the sniper I can't even damage him cuz of the dumb shield. Or worse, he can put out my afterburn and instantly kill me with the Bushwacka. :(
@@FoulUnderworldCreature If a Pyro manages to set a Sniper on fire he deserves to burn. Simple as that. Giving Sniper an advantage against a class that he already has a tremendous advantage against is just plain stupid. It's just a crutch now for lemmings who don't know how to dodge flares.
i was playing sniper last week with the razorback on because i forgot about it, and a spy backstabbed me (likely on accident) and just stared at me like "I am sorry, I have messed up, I deserve this"
6:50 As someone who plays a lot of spy, I actually find it more frequent than not that a sniper is alone and able to be taken out with a revolver. Unless they’re using the huntsman, it’s usually beneficial to stay far away from the front lines to avoid the other 8 classes, which is where I think the appeal of the razorback comes from, since spies like picking people off who are alone. With them being alone so much though, if you get up close to them while they’re scoped in, it’s very easy to just surprise them and deal more damage than they can unless they’re good enough to get a quick headshot at point-blank range. Really just a useless weapon.
I play a lot of spy aswell and if I had to count all the times I was screwd over by sniper that I had to ingore who would always stand just behind his team watching their back I'd look like I'm in mrbeasts video
Personally I still think a razorback that blocked lethal damage would be fine. Even if it was for all classes (y'know for fairness) All you have to do is give it the proper downsides for such a powerful ability. My personal rework concept would be to block lethal damage on all classes. But you are always left with 1-hp, have a short speed boost and invulnerability, (basically bonk effect) and you aren't allowed to attack until the invulnerability wears off. Then maybe just lessen the effect of not only overheal, but healing in general. Similar to the back scratcher and I'd call it done. With this version, yeah you could survive lethal damage. But you'd then have to run into the arms of your teammates, cause otherwise you'd just get tracked down and killed anyways. And while it would be harder to kill you, your enemies can still get you off the frontlines for awhile which is at least a bittersweet victory. Thusly, the sniper would probably want to stay closer to his team than some other snipers. Which means that now the sniper himself has to play around the razorback too, instead of just spies.
I do not like the idea of any fix being "The spy can just stab the sniper anyway". That seems like a silly idea for a weapon since you could just give him a defense boost for all the difference it makes.
@@luckyducky7819 The whole point of the backstab (as mentioned in the video) is to pierce high health classes and resistances. The only weapon other than the razorback that can prevent backstabs is a stock ubercharge. And that needs at least a minute to build up. If the razorback is just a passive thing you don't have to build up. Then you better believe that a balanced version of it would be basically useless against a backstab.
@@rbstat6946 All of the reasons to be against it comes down to individual opinions. Is the razorback bad because you don't use it like a traditional weapon? Maybe, but what if we compromised by making it a melee weapon? You can smack people with the razorback for good damage and range, but it'd be slower and a bit weaker than the stock kukri. The bonus is that, if its not equipped, it has the traditional razorback perks but will break when stabbed. I don't know if its a good idea, but I'd love to see it tried.
@@luckyducky7819 Ahh but then you don't have the downside of not having your secondary. Also I'm not sure if you can even have a weapon switch weapon slots. Even if you could technically do that. You might run into the same sort of lost investment problem you would get from just removing it entirely. I'm not trying to pwn you or anything I'm just saying that weapon balance can be very tricky. And people who don't think about it too hard, aren't good at balancing weapons, or are just biased, can often suggest detrimental changes to weapons. For instance: If you wanted to remove the crits from the phlog. You might as well just throw all the other stats in the garbage too cause your just making a brand new weapon at that point.
10:34 I, a pyro main, am doubly insulted by the danger shield because 1: it greatly weakens my class for free, and 2: CROCODILES ARE MY FAVORITE ANIMAL AND THE SNIPER IS WEARING IT LIKE A CAPE.
@@gekohno sure, a player who misses his shots will not do well regardless, but the ease of use is what’s stupid. it allows players who don’t know much if anything about spy to be able to get a second chance free of cost. many times, bull rushing and popping it, then flanking while invisible works against bad to decent players. the ringer just drags out his interactions and it’s silly to me. the cloak and dagger and invis watch let the spy play very tactically and wise while the dead ringer rewards dumb plays and gives seconds chances with no requirement.
@@skeletonking2501 you'd be surprised how redundant this factor is, like the guy above said, a faulty internet, paired with TF2's faulty optimization and lag settings, headshots aint hard to get.
@samsalaz You can always tell who's a salty Sniper main that gets a$$mad when someone points out that game design and balance are crucial, because they start raging. Cope harder lmao I 100% have better aim than you. You can main Sniper all you want, but all that means to me is "i CanT gEt kIlLs UnLesS I cAmP gIaNt SiGhtLiNeS aNd JusT kEeP mY cUrSOr aT hEaD-lEvEl" and 98% of the time, I'm right. God Sniper mains are so trash lmao, that's why you all install bots and aim scripts haha.
I mean Jarate has its own separate problems. They're comparable in the basic sense that they're both secondaries for the same class but beyond that they're totally different. And even then I'd still always take an overpowered weapon with easily adjusted stats over a conceptually flawed mess like the Razorback.
I've always liked the idea of it giving damage resistance from behind. It'd be a sort of interesting defensive/retreat tool. - We already have code to check for where a player's back is, used for backstabs, so it shouldn't be all too hard for add. - It has use against all classes as a retreat tool, letting you reposition or run for cover with increased survivability. - It's got high interactivity, as skilled snipers could spin around and position themselves against sources of incoming damage in more direct fights (extra synergistic for bow snipers). I'm no game designer, but I think it could be fun. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
The check for being able to backstab uses the collision hull rather than the hitbox that’s used for hitscan. It would likely require splitting all the classes hitboxes in two or they could use a check for what face the hitscan ray went through. Wouldn’t be as simple as reusing code.
@@zo0ot404 That's true, I didn't consider that. Well either way, aside from the fact that TF2 is made out of spaghetti code that's hard to work with, it shouldn't be _all too hard_ to add. Maybe. Hopefully.
The fists of steel exist and the brass beast gave you damage resistance when revved up... Until they decided that for whatever reason it should only apply when
As a spy main, the existence of the razorback invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER which is the most annoying thing for a knife that's mostly only good for taking out engineer nests. So if you are using it for dealing with sentries you are completely unable to kill snipers due to the fact that you will always be visible to a sentry
" invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER " but ... why use the YER? This thing sucks. And if you don't want to use the Kunai out of fairness then use the Big Earner or the stock Knife. It's way better.
@@DommTom I stated "mostly only good for taking out engineer nests" im well aware that its overshadowed by most other knives. I'm saying that the razorback makes an already underused weapon even less enjoyable and less preferred
I love how you made the point against the "just shoot him" claim people make for the razor back. As well as sentrys making this claim wrong snipers who are really good will be looking around and headshot you two seconds after they see you.
That's sort of the issue with Sniper in general. Good Snipers are completely impossible to kill and can shut down an entire map. It doesn't matter how much you sporadically spazz around as Scout. That Sniper will get you if you are in his sightlines. If you come around the corner as medic he will instantly delete you with a quick scope. People like to say the Sydney Sleeper sucks but it really doesn't. When fully charged it does 150 damage on body shot just like any rifle. Pair that with the fast charge and you have yourself a spammable Medic killer that requires absolutely no skill whatsoever to use. They never should have added Sniper to TF2. He does not belong. Everything else about the game is too fundamentally built around close combat with things like limited weapon reach and damage falloff. The damage is done now though and sadly removing classes is out of the question, as much as I honestly would not complain. All we can do is hope Valve gets off their asses and does that Heavy update like they said they would after Jungle Inferno. I hear it was supposed to come with Sniper nerfs.
@@vyor8837 we must have completely different tf2 experiences. I often face against a sniper (or snipers) who will shut the entire server down. even if the sniper is cheating, its unlikely that they will be kicked if its subtle enough.
another example of how ridiculous the razor back is: what if they made a secondary for engineer, that makes his buildings immune to sappers, while still alerting the engineer to presence of the spy?
@@Qualicabyss 30 seconds is a long time to recharge And you could argue they can just run back to spawn But that accomplishes the same effect as outright killing them so
Love how Sniper, an already OP class, was designed to have its downside to be that if he lacks awareness, he ded, and they just kept on adding weapons that are designed specifically to make you live if you're unaware of your surroundings. Can't detect Spies? Razorback. Can't stop a Pyro from getting close? DDS. Can't stop Scouts from getting in your face? Jarate+Bushwacka.
Sniper isn't op, his downside is his lack of mobility and awareness. Not JUST awareness. And your reasons completely contradict eachother, you can't equip the Jarate DDS and Razorback all at the same time. So just switch class or weapon depending on what he's wearing. Not detecting spies "skill" is irrelevant due to the invis watch not to mention the spy can just shoot the sniper, DDS only really counters the flareguns, not so much the flamethrowers. if a Pyro close to you, then it doesn't matter you have the DDS equipped, you are dead anyway. and Scouts outrun melee range, so not sure how a Jarate Bushwacka counters Scout.
@@MrTriple3D The lack of mobility is only a weakness if you are playing competitive 6's otherwise it's not an issue at all. Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory. Spy's have to uncloak and make a loud sound when doing so plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank. DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit. And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance. Your entire comment is null which is no surprise from somebody trying to defend sniper as being a balanced class.
@@bigblue344 the lack of mobility is a weakness all across the board. a sniper is never going to be able to escape 2 competent scouts/soldiers/demos. "Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory." none of them are "hard counters" at all. they're counters but not hard counters. of course spies make noise. don't be surprised when you get instakilled for uncloaking behind somebody. "plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank." is redudant, "DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit." is completely dependant on your positioning. you're not gonna escape a pyro if you're not near spawn with the DDS. "And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance." ok so either i'm a god or i'm trash. how does that make sense? i can't explain to you why i believe sniper isn't op but i have found a video that describes what i think pretty well. watch jbirds "is sniper op" video
I'm not sure if its been mentioned, but being unable to be overhealed puts you at a disadvantage. You cave in to spam a lot easier, and will be at more of a disadvantage in sniper v sniper fights if your medic knows to top off snipers before heading out
yeah but snipers are not at the front lines where the other 8 classes hes meant to avoid getting too close to are, yeah sniper v sniper fights give you a disadvantage if the other is overhealed but a sniper v sniper duel mostly based on skill hes over heal clocks in at 185 but that number is decreasing by the second most of the time you'll stay scoped in long enough to kill them in one headshot anyway the razorback handicaps the spy hes not even that good of a counter his class is literally Made to counter sniper and IF hes using the ambassador it also handicaps his revolver dps other then his headshots the razor back is made to screw over the other class made to counter him which makes it unfair for the spy
Lack of overheal shouldn't matter in casual play considering you often aren't the focus on the medic. Especially if you aren't rolling the enemy team, the medic is usually too busy healing to be giving everyone overheal.
@@tylerbreau4544 I've buffed plenty of snipers who subsequently survive a quick headshot and then win their sniper duels right after. It does help, and it's something a medic can do when there's down time and no immediate action to prioritize. Generally I just go around buffing everyone that has critical heals active because over heal is quick to give and extremely helpful
I would say this thing would be better if it also protected from things like the back burner and backscatter, but then I realized that’s basically saying “It now screws over more classes for putting themselves at a pretty decent risk by getting behind a sniper to begin with!”.
King&Trix's razorback is really nice, basically replaces the "no backstab" with "If you die you splash jarate everywhere" Basically, sniper pisses himself on death and soaks any nearby players Also gives extra speed and max primary ammo if you have a bow, but that's not as important
@@Dovah_Slayer Since you clearly can't think, I'll do it for you: If a Sniper gets backstabbed (and it isn't the YER, I'll get to it), then the Spy will be revealed _and_ coated in mini-crit juice that shows exactly where he is. Instead of helping the Sniper survive (which, as discussed in the video you clearly didn't watch, is a terrible idea), it helps his team avenge his death. If the Spy is using the YER, then... "hey Sniper, why are you suddenly coated in Jarate? You didn't throw it, since you have the thing that coats the Spy in jarate upon backstab... eh, I'll go with a random Sydney Sleeper shot at close range, even though you don't necessarily have it equipped."
@btf_flotsam478 YOU can't think, apparently debuffs (jarate milk bleed etc) are SEVERELY NERFED when spy cloaks making this theoretical razorback completely useless so long as the spy has ANY GAME SENSE AT ALL; thats as dumb as the "lock into melee" idea someone else has you wanna know how to beat the razor back just remember SPY HAS A GUN. Everyone literally bitches about a weapon that can be bypassed by just having basic fucking game sense the razor back literally doesn't have to be changed at all. Spy mains just need to actually use their fucking arsenal appropriately. Hell spy mains routinely use a gun that is super effective at close range so long as you can hit heads you literally hard counter Sniper yet you want to focus on the one weapon that gives the sniper a barely tangible advantage (that changing it to LITERALLY ANYTHING else would be actually useless)
@@Dovah_Slayer Retards like you seem to forget that being able to partially negate something by using up a valuable resource doesn't make it completely useless.
The fact this was added in the same updated as the amby makes you question valve's thought process "we have a weapon that renders snipers immune to spy's one-hit knife! (it works only once)" "we have a revolver that [then] could headshot anyone from across the map"
I mean, it makes sense. You give sniper something to counter his biggest weakness, which is seeing behind him. So, you give spy something to get around this. I dont see what's confusing.
@@Jpmrocks7 Because it completely negates the razorback by potentially one shotting the sniper with a crit or at the least draing his health down to where you can finish him with a simple poke
@@heavysbeltbuckle you forgot that execution is a key here. for experienced spy it may be no difference, but for a noob spy scoring a backstab is 100x easier than headshotting and finishing the sniper.
@@velDANTe It's not even about the execution. Like the example in this video, it makes dealing with a sniper backed up by his team near impossible, if not a suicide mission. And again, Spy is supposed to counter Sniper
@@M4x_P0w3r I would counter that dealing with any class backed up by their team is near impossible, or suicide mission. Spy is a support class that relies on confusion and inattentiveness to do his job. The Razorback does need a rework but its not a spy's bane given most of the time a good attentive sniper will notice the spy before a backstab anyway forcing the spy to shoot or flee.
I really like the idea of the razorback making backstabs deal a significant and static amount of HP, something like 100hp, and maybe it not shocking the spy if it would result in a kill. It wouldn't even need any other stats aside from what it has now and I'd think it'd be pretty balanced.
As for the Darwin's Danger Shield: I think it's rework should be reverted... But without the bullet resistance/explosive vulnerability. It would mean that Sniper can still be insta-headshot but still allows him to take a bit more damage in general.
13:37 should also work like the spycicle, when you loose the shield you cant use any weapons. because other wise snipers would intentionally run into enemies and destroy their shields to gain the speedboost
@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 Good luck using your primary agaisnt every single other class that outguns you and outpowers you while being a class thats based around precise pick decision making and stealth to outset that inbalance
"The Razorback involves absolutely no input from the Sniper himself" You are wrong. You have not yet experienced the delight of intentionally doing a 180 during a melee fight to force a Spy into stabbing it and then using schadenfreude at them for giving +1 to your strange razorback. Viable? Not really. The peace of mind is solid if you really have problems with spies. But the sheer audacity of breaking apart a spy teleport camping or ruining a chainstab is understandably powerful.
Oh god. It's just SO extra to put your back to a Spy so his butterknife becomes a big stun. But what's equally funny is when you use the Amby/Diamondback to crit them, and then butterknife them when they turn around on you. It's a dumb weapon, but you could argue that the Pomson and Bison are dumb weapons as they border Friendly levels of harmful.
The Razorback is bad because, with no input from its user, an enemy spy is forced to not use the most important part of their kit, and is forced to either pathetic butterknifing, or using the revolver, which just exposes them without guaranteeing a kill. Imagine in Call of Duty where you could equip something that suddenly made you immune to shotguns, forcing the enemy to use a pistol instead while you just blast them away.
I remember pre-Razorback nerf, I once pocketed such a Sniper with the Vaccinator. We were defending the first control point in Dustbowl, and went all 4:30 minutes without either of us dying. See, enemy Spies picked me instead of him. But he could quickscope them if they came after me. Enemy Snipers couldn't see me, so they quickscoped him, but he'd survive. Everyone else got shut down by his headshots, and even random crits couldn't kill him because of my Vaccinator. A Spy *did* break his Razorback but they were too late. So that nerf was necessary.
"We basically know that snipers only equip the Danger Shield when being harrassed by flares." Incorrect! I equip it with its set because I like making little tombstones. God! Some people.
The razorback could be reworked as a take less damage from the back at the cost of slightly more damage from the front type of weapon, backstabs could deal 80-90% of total hp.
13:37 I think this also creates a great counter your counter moment because you create the situation of using the Backscatter to counter that Razorback Sniper
How to balance: Cause the screen to vibrate when a spy is near. Similar to the Spycicle, it provides a counter-counter by hindering the class' primary mechanic. It is hard to land headshots when the screen is moving on its own. This can even be made into the design of the weapon: the big battery on the shield is the vibrator that detects spies in the vicinity. I would remove the backstab protection, because being alerted to a spy's presence is enough of a buff.
Here's a silly idea. What if spy wasn't stunned when he backstabs the razorback so he can still make quick plays, but now sniper is launched forward like a backstabbed uber. Imagine that you shove the sniper into the middle of your team or maybe off a cliff. Could be a fun new game dynamic.
An idea that I had for the razorback could be that it stops a spy from cloaking/disguising because of the electricity running through it. It would obviously have to be changed slightly to make that work but it would be an interesting counter way to instead of how it is now
Holy shit someone finally talked about this thank you Almost every single point you make here is dead on, although I personally think the worst bit isnt even the backstab immunity, but the fact the spy cannot do any counterplay after a razoback stab, due to being stunned
About someone "finally" talking about it: FishStickOnAStick has "Sniper's Backpack Bonanza", a great video on all of Sniper's backpacks, proposing changes for them as well. Now, this video is good as well.
I fairly recently back stabbed a razorback sniper (I wasn't paying attention and didn't even notice he was wearing it) when my stab didn't do anything I just assumed I missed and stabbed him again, he had really bad tunnel vision due to my team doing a push on payload.
As WitheRosE said, Fish Stick on a Stick did talk about this a while back on his channel, although that was focused on all backpacks and not just the Razorback. Although he did say that even as a Sniper main, the Razorback and Danger Shield are complete clusterf%cks that are just designed to say "screw you" to one class. (Spies and Pyros) He stated that it wasn't enough effort to shut down Pyro and Spy players and that they should definitely be reworked.
When I heard the word razorback I thought of a cosmetic where sniper has spikes on his back but then I heard weapon and i just gave up like what even is the razorback? A surf board?
Razorback can be a surprisingly useful item. And even when it's not bringing any active use by shocking the backstabber, it genuinely makes you feel less paranoid about the potential threat of Spies sneaking up right behind you.
an idea I had while watching this video is "The Eye Back" an item that helps snipers combat their own tunnel vision by making semi subtle alerts when an enemy class is nearby
Imagine walking over to the oblivious sniper, about to get the backstab, then the razorback just appears right into existence. Now you have to shoot em', but you forgot about you have the LETRANGER equipped.
Take away the backstab immunity and replace it with hurting and movement-stunning a spy for a sew seconds. Make stabbing more of a tactical choice, as you will always secure the kill but might not be able to walk away after unless the target is alone and you have enough health. The main issue is there is absolutely no reason to ever stab or interact with it. The short circuit has the exact same problem - no sane player with more than 10 hours uses the primary fire. You need to be in shotgun-range for it to even hit.
The Razorback forces spies to THINK and switch things up a bit, im not even a sniper main, i play engi, but weapons that allow or force classes to switch things up are definitely interesting, and the razorback is rarely ever used by decent players, most people who use it just think they're immune to spies and never unscope, the diamondback or the ambassador almost nullify the razorback entirely
Wdym "force spies to think" it's pulling out your revolver and shooting the guy 3 times before he dies, anyone who's played Spy for over 10 hours would've figured that out by now. Not saying I disagree that weapons which force classes to switch things up are a bad idea, but the Razorback just fails in that concept entirely, it's only ever been either a boring obstacle that does nothing but make a Sniper's death more tedious or a massive annoyance to spies who just want to use the basic mechanic of their class and sometimes HAVE to do so if they want ensure they'll get that Sniper pick. Compare that to Jarate which is much better at forcing Spies to think since it punishes them for getting caught out and discourages them from making risky decloaks right next to a sniper as they can't just cloak away anymore if the Sniper hears them and turns around. Let's make another comparison of the point I'm getting across. Rescue Ranger and the Short Circuit. Rescue Ranger can be an actually interesting challenge for Soldiers and Demos as it opens up more opportunities for every class involved, the Engineer can now heal his buildings without the risk of being shot himself, but it isn't as strong as hitting it 2 times with your wrench and the primary weapon itself sucks at defending yourself when your sentry goes down. Alternatively, you can grab your sentry from far away and save it from spam or a sticky trap that's about to detonate, but at the cost of half your metal and being more susceptible to direct attacks while carrying your buildings. This is a good example of a weapon that gives you more options to deal with your class counters instead of just taking away options from Soldier and Demo themselves, and an interaction that at least I find interesting. Compare that to the Short Circuit, which is the exact opposite of my previous sentence. It does nothing but delete Soldier and Demo's main sources of damage, it's only major downside is nullified by having a Dispenser next to you, it may or may not be fun for the Engineer but definitely isn't fun for the Soldier or Demo, and does nothing but shut down the mechanics of another class. Razorback is no different from the latter, it's only useful for countering a single class, it's not fun for either class, and at best, still ruins class interactions.
Does it? A better description would be that it allows Snipers to NOT think. There is nothing interesting about the Razorback. It requires 0 input from the class using it and simply acts as an obstacle to the class who is meant to have an advantage in that situation. Its effectively a crutch that prevents the Sniper from properly learning the matchup. Using Engi as an example, the Razorback is like the equivalent to if Scout got a passive secondary that let him bypass Sentry damage. Does that force Engineer to think? Or is it a lazy gimmick that lets Scout handicap his biggest counter?
@@SquimJim Pretty sure that Scout's secondary you're speaking of is the Bonk Atomic Punch, but at least this one stops you from inflicting damage on players and buildings
it should not be the job of the spy to change their entire playstyle to check the class they're DESIGNED TO COUNTER, just because the Sniper equipped a shield that does nothing else. It's a crutch weapon for worse snipers or a broken weapon for good snipers playing against competent spies. You said you were an engineer main. Alright then - do you think it would be balanced if you had a weapon that just auto deleted explosive projectiles if they entered within a radius of your sentry? I'm not talking the Short Circuit - it costs metal and has to be aimed, meaning there is interaction. I'm saying: you equip a secondary, and now any and all projectiles flying at your sentry just vanish in a puff of smoke. Would that be fair? That the soldier and demo's core design to counter Engineer just gets completely negated? It's just inherently bad game design.
What if you could take the shield and whack people over the head with it to stun them or do more damage than your melee? Perhaps do the weapon stun? I feel like it should still be particularly effective against spies.
As someone who basically never unequipped the razorback, i'm of the opinion that the razorback is mainly useful because backstab hit registration is broken AF. You're fighting a spy, knife v kukri, the frenchman wipes his butterknife across your face and suddenly you're instakilled because it counted as a backstab. You say "that's bullshit" and equip the razorback, and fight the spy again. This time, when butter is applied to your face, the spy is now stunned and you kukri him. The spy says "that's bullshit" and leaves you alone. The razorback is now a psychological weapon. I never felt the lack of a secondary weapon because if an enemy's too close to quickscope, they're close enough to chop. It also lets you not bother spychecking everyone who comes near you because if you're as good as i used to be when i played nothing but tf2, you're able to headshot the spy before the second amby bullet hits you. No spychecking means you can focus more on sniping, making you more effective. Ultimately, the razorback prevents one way of you being oneshot. you should be able to dodge crockets and critpills, you should be actively hunting enemy snipers, and you shouldn't be frequently in danger of melee crits, so a disguised spy walking past your team and instakilling you is actually a large portion of your one-shot deaths. turning that into a kukri-v-revolver duel massively increases your survivability if you're any good with melee. I don't think the razorback is dumb, either in the useless or OP sense, but i certainly think a case can be made that it wouldn't be as useful if backstab hitreg actually worked.
"Bullying people for using a weapon is more annoying then the weapon itself" Somebody never had to deal with a vac medic pocketing a sniper with the machina. Or dealing a spy with a diamond back with the dead ringer.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The Vac is somehow simultaneously a weapon I hate when other people are being pocketed by it and when I am getting pocketed by it. Fighting a Vac pocket is a pain in the ass unless you can get your team to coordinate (a dream in random casual/pub matches) and at the same time I’d rather have the large burst of power that the Uber, Kritz, or even Quick Fix provides as opposed to getting a bullet resistance bubble against every Scout I encounter.
The thing about the deadringer is that 99% of spies don’t use it properly, and even for those that do, it cripples spy’s positioning capability in exchange for extra survivability. Right now I consider it pretty underpowered, since the big earner and the stock watch basically gives you the same effect without sacrificing your positioning capabilities
An interesting way to do it, if it had to have the backstab defense, I’d have it charge in chunks and at 100% charge it fully blocked the stab, at 50% it blocked a percentage of the damage
Wrangler shield and deadringer damage resistance + speedboost are on the same boat of minimal input for high reward. The opponents on the receiving end have to deal with Wrangler Engineers pressing the 2 key and Deadringer spies pressing right click.
Its also semi good that this thing exists, because it tricks snipers into not taking jarate, which can be a downright oppressive unlock to use in team fights
@@Josh-jw3go well screw you cause you’d be happy if your playing spy and you got an easy stab on me. I wasn’t trying to be toxic in the slightest but I guess a lot of people are just love being jerks don’t they,
13:43 maybe you lower the snipers speed while the shield is not broken, then give him a short boost when it breaks, because there is no downside other than locking yourself from using another secondary,
Pretty much everyone aside from sniper mains hated the razorback back in 2009, probably the one item I think should be removed from the game. I like the suggested mechanics of a damage shield tho.
I think a fair version of the razorback would be something like "gives 80% melee resistance on first hit, and stuns attacker for a second" or something like that, so the first hit of any weapon doesn´t immediately kill the sniper, but he still gets damaged.
It's the stun that gets you killed. Any good sniper will just spin around and insta-headshot you, even at point blank range. Just retire the fucking thing already. It was broken from day one.
To all you saying sapper is just like the razorback and whatnot spy can kill every class in the game except engineer if he doesn’t have the sapper and they aren’t paying attention, because if the engineers buildings are still up he’s just mostly dead, he hasn’t lost every means of supporting his team directly. The sapper is supposed to be an equivalent of a backstab but for the engineers building. And as such is why the sapper doesn’t insta kill as the buildings can’t notice the spy and fight back unless the spy does something stupid (not being disguised) as they can’t spy check. So instead it doesn’t insta kill so that the engineer has a chance to save his building as an equivalent of releasing your about to get backstabbed at the very last moment as any other class.
To me, the Razorback rewards Snipers for carelessness by letting them escape punishment for being snuck up on. People who say "just shoot them" are missing the point -- Spy's backstabs are supposed to be a hard counter to the Sniper. By being backstabbed as a Sniper, you are being punished for your failure not to maintain awareness of your surroundings, in the same way being shredded by the Heavy's minigun in a face-to-face battle is the game's way of telling you that fighting them head on is a bad idea.
You know what would be interesting? If the razorback kept the block of backstab and disable the knife, make it give spy a speed boost after breaking it. Sort of a big give and take when the two classes interact
Yeah, I think the important premise of Spy's existence was that he could easily pick off Snipers, and Snipers were less OP because of it, and Spy was more useful. Now Sniper is absolutely OP and no one except another Sniper counters him. There was a nice balance back when Razorback didn't exist.
I really dislike this premise of making every class equal in power to each other, because that is not what TF2 is about. Teams in-game are successful when they have good team balance, not because every class in the game is perfectly balanced. Spys serve the purpose of taking out distracted enemies and saving teammates the trouble of dealing with tanky enemies. While you might think that spys are designed to take care of snipers and should be able to serve that role perfectly, they are not. An item that can semi-counter a single attack from an occasional threat is not something that needs to be removed from the game. As it stands, the razorback is perfectly balanced, even if it's a downgrade from it's standard alternative.
@@AeyakS yeah I hear you when you say that this is a TEAM game, but honestly it seems as if the game has changed into this odd, pool of 1v1’s as everyone cries over the kunai and Vaccinator due to requiring teamwork to counter. Almost as if Team Fortress 2 is no longer a team based game somehow? Idk I just think tf2 isn’t a team game anymore based of of people’s reactions to being forced to use teamwork to counter the kunai.
@@AeyakS An item specifically designed the nullify the main source of damage from another class is not a good design concept at all. That would be like giving Sniper an item specifically designed to make him immune to fire which is Pyro's main source of dealing damage, oh wait............
11:20 The Razorback could grant 1 immunity to a melee critical hit, making it deal regular damage instead. If it's a backstab, reduce damage taken from 40 to 50% of current health, then shock.
Been playing since october 2007, 1400 hours on sniper. i've never once bothered with the razorback. the darwin danger shield was perfectly fine when it only gave +25 hp, and now i dont even touch it anymore. I think the Razborback needs an injection of FUN, make it a selectable utility ability. Pressing 2 should activate the shield, breaking it, and sending out a stunning pulse within a short distance behind the sniper. If a Spy is working with their own teammate, there could be counter-play for the spy to intentionally remove the razorback with their knife before the sniper can activate it. The Darwin should really just give +25 health and nothing else. It was perfectly fine as that kind of item, it was the perfect pairing for huntsman users who didnt want to stand in the same spot on the same map forever. AT MOST, I would say one could put on another effect, like.. +10-15% damage resistance while Wet, or something. Idk if the item really needs it, but it might give the item and it's niche more personality.
darwins was perfect on launch, idk why they made it counter better snipers, and when that proved to be a moronic idea, made it counter basically just the scorch shot valve just cant balance snipers weapons i guess
i think the best sniper utility secondary is cozy camper because it helps with the burn damage making your camera jump up and down from burning from flare guns and it helps you regenerate health
The razorback isn't even a good item. Its just toxic against spies. And frankly, the way it is right now is part of the reason that I think all of spy's revolvers should mini crit headshot
That would be beautiful. I would love that so much. That would make playing spy that much more interesting. How would you treat the Amby in this case? Just have it remain a normal full crit?
Toxic against spys? Does a sniper having a razerback prevent you from playing spy at all? And minicrits on ALL revolver headshots? You crazy? I can see that for the enforcer but not for everyone when the diamond back exists.
7:57 this is why I use the razor back it makes sure Im with my team so if Im alone i get killed by a spy but if Ik working with my team I should have lost a secondary
or it could be used as a sort of last resort in a sense that when the sniper is about to die and still has it it can shock the sniper for a second of speed and invincibility to escape the situation, may it be spy sniper or any other class with the only limit being that the sniper cannot use it after he sustained too much damage
my 276 stabs blocked and i deserve justice! my words were not drunken ramblings! i spoke the truth! i spread the good word of the razorback! why are you booing me?? i'm right!!!!!
The Sniper Rifle is one of the most powerful things in TF2. None of Snipers secondaries compare to that power. Anything that allows Sniper to scope more often/remain scoped is inherently a pretty big plus. But the point of that was that when it's equipped the Sniper doesn't have to do anything beyond that to screw over one of Snipers biggest counters. Imagine if Heavy had a passive secondary that made him immune to headshots. That would have the exact same fundamental flaws as the Razorback. Heavy gives up a healing secondary to counter his biggest counter. No one would seriously want that in game. For obvious reasons.
@@SquimJim the heavy being immune to one headshot a life (with a cool down) is not broken, and would not be a bad addition to the game. As long as there is a clear visual that he has it equipped. The loss of a secondary is a good trade off. Imo
@- Kidcone60 - I can't say I view messing with class dynamics by adding extremely niche hyper specific weapons designed solely to handicap a class's counter as a good thing. It's very boring for one, and isn't really fun for either party. But arguably more importantly they act as a crutch that discourages players from learning class matches, good positioning, etc
As somewhat of a spy main, this is actually not true. I’ve found that the unpredictable behavior of new players make it extremely risky to attempt a backstab on them, since a failure almost certainly means death if they’re around their team. Besides this, new players are low-value targets compared to more skilled players, since skilled players are an actual threat to your team. Newer players are not, so it’s more risk for less reward. The only exception is heavy, since newer players can have a large impact and are still generally easy to backstab.
2:25 titanfall fans seeing you use Tone, A-Wall, Smart pistol, Spitfire, Archer and camping in the back of the map: *You have chosen a fate worse than death*
"Weapons designed to counter one class should not be exist" sapper: 👁️.👁️ Нomewrecker: 😅 Natascha: 😬 Southern hospitality: 🩸🩸🩸 Kukri that goes bleed: 🩸🩸🩸(keep forgetting this item name) Jarate: 🍺 Darwin's shield: 🐊 Spycicle: 🥶 Huo Long heater: 😤🥵 Direct hit and loch n load: (not against one, but two classes, and one of them is the engineer that already gets countered by demos and soldiers...) Fists of steel: 🗿
The only 2 other ones are the Danger Shield and Spy-cicle and both were explicitly called out for being badly designed weapons in this very video. As well as explaining why the Spy-cicle isn't as bad as the Razorback. The Sapper is a stock weapon. The Natascha's slowdown works on every class. Bleed works on every class. Jarate works on every class. The Heater works on every class. The Loch-n-Load works one every class. The Fists of Steel work against every class. The Razorback's upside literally only works against 1 (one) class.
@@SquimJim woow, so fast reply on 1 y.o. video 😅 Yeah, but they work worse on every other classes comparing to one they often used against: Jarate does not prevent going invisible 8/9 classes. Btw never saw a sniper using it against other classes except spies. Is it a big difference between doing function worse and doing nothing? Like, there are many weapons that do nothing most of the time, like banners or recharging garate/madmilk. They are useful only in moment when they applied and useless in any other. [Just like razorback.] Never saw anyone complaining about it. I see you dont like razorback just because you cant hold it and attack with it. Not to mention some of them simply doesnt work, like huo long heater. Kunai heal or simple *PRESS BACKSPACE TO JUMP* counters it. Yeah, not always counters. Just like not always shooting a razorback sniper is an option. But, like i said, for some reason you dont complain about chinese machine gun, do you? You say having sapper to counter nothing but 1 class' buildings is okay because it is a stock? Okay, why we just dont make 4th slot for sniper, just like spy have, and make it for shields/backpack. No need to trade off second slot options + you have passive bonus behind yo spine. (We are not talking about making OP instakill from a distance class more OPper, just imagine in that case sniper has some nerfs to balance this buff)
Jarate is used ALL the time against all classes. It's an extremely powerful and easy to use weapon that you can just chuck at points and carts. Theres a reason it's banned competitively and that has nothing to do with Spy. Weapons with recharges aren't really relevant to the discussion, are they? The problem with the Razorback isn't that it recharges. The Heater is underpowered. It always has been. It also doesn't exist purely to counter Spy. It functions as a minigun regardless of whether or not a Spy is on the enemy team. You can buff the Heater. The Sapper is a default weapon in an extra slot for Spy. He loses nothing by having it because he's always supposed to have it. He was designed from day 1 to be able to act as a threat to Engineer's buildings. In TF2's development Sniper was at no point ever designed to be backstab immune. Quite the opposite. He was designed to be countered by Spy. Crutch anti-counter weapons are not a good idea ever. Sniper should learn to be able to deal with his counters the same way every other class does without the need for niche 1 use weapons that only act to prevent the counter from performing 1 attack. It'd be like giving Heavy a passive secondary specifically to block or reduce headshot damage. No one would ever want that in game.
![Which Team Fortress 2 Mercenary Is The Biggest War Criminal? [Bumbles McFumbles]](/img/n.gif)
I already see some people bringing up the Sapper as an example of a weapon designed only to counter 1 class- So let me stop you RIGHT THERE! Yes, it is. Maybe in a perfect world the Sapper would have other uses but it's absolutely not in the same camp as the Razorback, Danger Shield, or Spy-cicle. The Sapper is just an extra tool Spy has by default. He isn't giving up anything to use it. He isn't made worse if the enemy team has no Engineers. And it doesn't allow him to counter one of his counters (at least not really).
The entire Spy-Engineer dynamic from the get go has been built around Spy being a threat to Engineer and his buildings. And the Sapper is a big part of what allows him to be a threat to Engineers.
The Sniper-Spy dynamic ISN'T built around Sniper not being able to be backstabbed.
Oh add this to the potential fix for the razorback
Reduce damage from behind and all melee weapons hitting the razorback will do the same thing as a blocked melee weapon making sniper retreating from an enemy at close range much much more easier and riskier for more deadly melee base sub class like demoknight and trolldier.
Main difference is this: An engineer nest is probably the most important part of the defense. so it needs a specific counter. A spy backstab is NOT the most important part of the offense, so it having a class specific counter is stupid
"i will outright to refuse to use" (u have the razorback equiped?) 1:49
I
Essentially its more of a case of what if engineer had a tool to prevent sapping entirely rather than why spy can backstab a sniper or sap a sentry
"The Second the enemy team stops having a spy the weapon becomes useless." This has never happened ever.
correction, this happened once:
*myg0t has joined the server*
@@arenmee540 infZ joined the server
Well. The razor back can still be useless even with spies on the other team. Just because there is a game with snipers and spies doesn't mean their paths will ever meet. The enemy spy might not be able to even find the sniper and their back or the spy might not even be skilled enough to get anywhere close to the sniper. Also, sniper sometimes is always dead thanks to the enemy team's sniper.
"This has never happened ever."
...You ever hear of the concept of "Sixes," son?
@@LucanVaris in 6s you counter sniper with another sniper to be fair. You either play spy at the begining or you don't.
To be fair, from time to time I intentionally stab razorbacks. Supprisingly often the enemy doesn't even notice, making the following actual stab quite bit funnier.
Isn’t their an achievement for that?
@@ytk2508yeah it’s called die another way I believe
2Fort snipers tend to do that more than others
@@egg_crateI remember when I got that achievement I was brand new in tf2 and didnt know what a razorback was i thought it was a bug lmao but I still ended up killing the sniper with the help of my teammates pushing
Stab, coak, stab. They have no Jarate, so it’s comically easy.
the razorback was given to the sniper and not any other class because he's the only one whose whole playstyle is based off of him minimizing his field of vision
Does that make it well designed or well balanced though? Sniper has that drawback for a reason.
Heavy's whole playstyle is built around him being tanky and having high health. But he has the drawback of being slow and vulnerable to the insta kill classes. The Razorback is like the equivalent of giving Heavy a passive secondary to block headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental design problems.
@XXV you guys already "Soft" counter Spy, dont need even MORE
@@SquimJim the heavy also has a weapon that denies his slowness, which is the gloves of running urgently, but go on..
@@kekopara6822 which comes at the cost of his health, and therefore his survivability, and this downside is maintained for a period of time after the weapon is switched off of. Your point?
@@kekopara6822 Does Heavy have a passive secondary that makes him faster for the only drawback of losing his secondary? No. The steak has the melee restriction and the GRU lower your health.
And even if he did, making Heavy faster does not only affect 1 class. The Razorback exists purely to screw over Spy and nothing else.
Which is why I gave the example of a secondary to make Heavy immune to headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental flaws and no one would reasonably claim that would be good for the game.
"It's the only weapon in tf2 that I will outright refuse to use"
Jim's strange scarcely lethal razorback: Am I a joke to you?
Scarcely lethal?
I- wha- hu- how?
@@evangonzalez7732 kil
Mvm?
@@evangonzalez7732 strange grade, means it has been used
@@hakanbrakankrakan ok.
How can a BACKPACK. Be SCARCELY LETHAL?
The razorback definitely is a weapon that needs a rework. It should have honestly been fixed when the Darwin's danger shield was
You have a gun
@@che595 yep but gun kills only give 1 point .. backstabs are worth 2. And all that matters is getting big score, so they can use it as justification of contributing when they lose..
Its just people crying about getting counter played.. who don't understand the concept of counter play thus it's unfair, because expecting them to learn and grow is asking to much..
I mean they pretend the ambassador was not released in the same update, and exists solely so level the playing field against snipers using the razorback back.
They don't loom at the big picture, just tunnel vision on the one item. Without considering interactions with other items.
Ltu?
@@FenexDragonis sniper mains when I call the class that 1 shots you from spawn overpowered
@@FenexDragonis sniper main be like
The wrangler practically needs a competent spy to take down.
That's less than 30% of the playerbase.
Less than 3%*
theres also the enforcer
Enforcer I pulled out of my ass:
bro said less than 30% more like less than 2%
Or any spy that can cloak and then suicide sap
While the old Danger Shield had a broader use than its current version, I still would say that the old version's anti-Sniper potential had a greater presence than the current version's anti pyro potential. I mean all the danger shield is doing is removing a minor annoyance vs. a major advantage in Sniper duels. But the thing the old Danger Shield and Razorback have in common is how they let Snipers play in a more careless style because they don't have to worry about being countered.
While not meant to counter any specific class, the old Ambassador/Deadringer/Kunai Spy was a combo that revolved specifically around not being punished for reckless behavior and thus being able to play in a way that a Spy normally cannot play. Really any weapon that makes a class strong when they are otherwise weak can be problematic and often will have trouble being properly balanced
funnily enough DDS is still meta in hl
God, don’t get me started with the old Darwin’s. I hate that I had to damage the Sniper prior to a Sniper duel because if I don’t, I’m basically headshot food, even if I hit the headshot first. It’s especially annoying against good Snipers. While I feel the Razorback fulfills this role for Spies, I feel it isn’t as bad as the old (or new) Darwin’s, since any of the Spy’s guns, especially the Revolver and Ambassador, can easily take care of a Sniper. Sniper can’t really defend himself too well in close quarters, even more so without a reliable secondary. However, I do agree that certain situations make shooting a Sniper dangerous or impossible, but at least there’s some counterplay. Overall, the Razorback needs a rework, since its purpose is too niche and promotes a “set and forget it” mentality against Spies.
I personally wish the DDS still had its anti-sniper purpose. Though instead of just straight up reducing bullet damage it should instead reduce all non-headshot bullet damage. Simply put, if it's a full charge body shot, it'll deal whatever a quick scope head shot used to do before, leaving you at I think 3 hp. Meanwhile a quick scope headshot should just kill you. Personally I think it's a lot better than the current anti-Scorch Shot DDS, because that's all it's good for, and it's definitely a nerf compared to pre Jungle Inferno
The Danger sheild is great for huntsmans
darwins rework: +25 maximum health
literally all it should be
Sniper is the most dangerous class in the game yet it seems like his unlocks were balanced around the common 2fort Snipers that take a minute to line up a shot only to miss anyway
And yet this community when discussing about weapon balance often overlook how broken a weapon can be in the hands of a pro. So they make up these ridiculous weapons that just offer insane upsides while having minimal/irrelavant downsides. Valve surely don't know how to balance a lot of shit but I'm still glad they will never let the community jinx with weapon stats.
I mean....when balancing a game, do you balance based off the top of the skill ceiling, or the middle?
@@owenchafer1083in my opinion good balancing is somthing like the direct hit balanced for medium and pro players
In the hands of a noob it’s a direct downgrade from sock because it does no damage if you miss
In the hands of a decent player it’s situationally better but still usually worse than stock because now you are better in 1v1s and certain targets like sentry’s and heavy’s but you still have less crowd control and you will still miss sometimes
And In the hands of a theoretically perfect player it’s incredibly good and better in some cases but still doesn’t overshadow stock because splash damage is such a useful tool for holding choke points and also fighting groups of players
A side grade should reward pros who can master it with unique and powerful options but even at their best shouldn’t overshadow stock without having serious weak points to make up for it
@@owenchafer1083You always balance based off of the top. When you don't, you get cases like the Pig from Dead by Daylight. Imagine a universe where people think Ganondorf needs a nerf.
@@blueyandicyabsolutely not, you never balance for the top unless you want a boring game with poor balance for 99% of people, pro players do not matter
Make it so when you get backstabbed, you're locked into using your melee weapon for a short duration so you have to duel the spy essentially. It'd give more of a reason for the spy to yell "Lets settle this like gentlemen!"
Not really, most sniper who got stabbed would probably switch to melee to kill the spy anyway
@@g2ltt733 and crit
You can actually get backstabbed with the razorback and not realize it if you are super concentrated on your sniping. But if you get locked in melee out of nowhere, that will be a braindead indicator that a Spy is behind you
You stab the sniper, he turns around and runs blindly at you, you trickstab him. That's typically how it goes.
When stabbing crowds, stab the sniper last, unless your keeping a soldier alive for a sick surf.
@@g2ltt733 Melee kills Spy in 2 hits (sometimes).
Quickscope does it in a single hit.
Risk reward ratio makes it a worthy choice if you got the skill.
The real flaw of having that resistance from behind mechanic is the sloppy hit registration. The frustration of facestabs is bad enough, and having that chance against a pub stomping sniper would be a nightmare. In a perfect world with perfect hit registration it would be a very neat mechanic, but tf2 is far from perfect in that regard.
Does the Razorback not trigger upon facestabs?
what registers as 'the back' in of itself is rather iffy. We're all familiar with the facestab and the nearly 180 degree range a backstab can trigger, but then you have weapons like the backburner or back scatter that seem to only deal the bonus damage if you hit your target at a straight 90 degree angle.
Fighting snipers in general is already a stupid concept. Because he is a class specialises in long-range combat where everyone else is balanced around mid-close range. In theory that alone is broken enough. A good sniper shreds the other team much more than an equally skilled soldier or heavy.
90% of the time it's a trickstab, not a facestab. Facestabs are not that common.
@@theotv5522 this is why sniper is a bitch to fight
5:09 SCENT TREE DOWN!
That was the best part
Sniper is a class that innately is built on, basically, interacting with enemies at a range they cannot interact back.
Makes sense to make them VERY weak to being interacted with to compensate.
I hate the Darwin Danger Shield and Jarate for this reason. Ok, I'm playing Pyro, I'm bad at long range. But then when I finally manage to get in close range of the sniper I can't even damage him cuz of the dumb shield. Or worse, he can put out my afterburn and instantly kill me with the Bushwacka. :(
@@FoulUnderworldCreature S H O T G U N
Nah they aren’t weak up close. The melee crits 90% of the time
@@FoulUnderworldCreature stop playing pyro. Pla
@@FoulUnderworldCreature If a Pyro manages to set a Sniper on fire he deserves to burn. Simple as that. Giving Sniper an advantage against a class that he already has a tremendous advantage against is just plain stupid. It's just a crutch now for lemmings who don't know how to dodge flares.
i was playing sniper last week with the razorback on because i forgot about it, and a spy backstabbed me (likely on accident) and just stared at me like "I am sorry, I have messed up, I deserve this"
6:50 As someone who plays a lot of spy, I actually find it more frequent than not that a sniper is alone and able to be taken out with a revolver. Unless they’re using the huntsman, it’s usually beneficial to stay far away from the front lines to avoid the other 8 classes, which is where I think the appeal of the razorback comes from, since spies like picking people off who are alone. With them being alone so much though, if you get up close to them while they’re scoped in, it’s very easy to just surprise them and deal more damage than they can unless they’re good enough to get a quick headshot at point-blank range. Really just a useless weapon.
I play a lot of spy aswell and if I had to count all the times I was screwd over by sniper that I had to ingore who would always stand just behind his team watching their back I'd look like I'm in mrbeasts video
I actually like the idea of reducing backstabs to 75 damage, and breaking when enough damage is taken. Makes it more interactive in all situations.
Personally I still think a razorback that blocked lethal damage would be fine. Even if it was for all classes (y'know for fairness) All you have to do is give it the proper downsides for such a powerful ability.
My personal rework concept would be to block lethal damage on all classes. But you are always left with 1-hp, have a short speed boost and invulnerability, (basically bonk effect) and you aren't allowed to attack until the invulnerability wears off. Then maybe just lessen the effect of not only overheal, but healing in general. Similar to the back scratcher and I'd call it done.
With this version, yeah you could survive lethal damage. But you'd then have to run into the arms of your teammates, cause otherwise you'd just get tracked down and killed anyways. And while it would be harder to kill you, your enemies can still get you off the frontlines for awhile which is at least a bittersweet victory. Thusly, the sniper would probably want to stay closer to his team than some other snipers. Which means that now the sniper himself has to play around the razorback too, instead of just spies.
I do not like the idea of any fix being "The spy can just stab the sniper anyway". That seems like a silly idea for a weapon since you could just give him a defense boost for all the difference it makes.
@@luckyducky7819 The whole point of the backstab (as mentioned in the video) is to pierce high health classes and resistances. The only weapon other than the razorback that can prevent backstabs is a stock ubercharge. And that needs at least a minute to build up.
If the razorback is just a passive thing you don't have to build up. Then you better believe that a balanced version of it would be basically useless against a backstab.
@@rbstat6946
All of the reasons to be against it comes down to individual opinions. Is the razorback bad because you don't use it like a traditional weapon? Maybe, but what if we compromised by making it a melee weapon?
You can smack people with the razorback for good damage and range, but it'd be slower and a bit weaker than the stock kukri. The bonus is that, if its not equipped, it has the traditional razorback perks but will break when stabbed.
I don't know if its a good idea, but I'd love to see it tried.
@@luckyducky7819 Ahh but then you don't have the downside of not having your secondary. Also I'm not sure if you can even have a weapon switch weapon slots. Even if you could technically do that. You might run into the same sort of lost investment problem you would get from just removing it entirely.
I'm not trying to pwn you or anything I'm just saying that weapon balance can be very tricky. And people who don't think about it too hard, aren't good at balancing weapons, or are just biased, can often suggest detrimental changes to weapons.
For instance: If you wanted to remove the crits from the phlog. You might as well just throw all the other stats in the garbage too cause your just making a brand new weapon at that point.
10:34 I, a pyro main, am doubly insulted by the danger shield because 1: it greatly weakens my class for free, and 2: CROCODILES ARE MY FAVORITE ANIMAL AND THE SNIPER IS WEARING IT LIKE A CAPE.
I agree with you, of all the classes to give resistance to the guy most effective at close range, they chose the guy who's effective at long range.
The Razorback is probably a perfect example of a crutch in TF2
I thought that was pre nerf phlog?
@carlosnathanieljannjusonal4826 pre nerf phlog was not a crutch. It was just ridiculous. It really doesn't help in what pyro usually does.
Noooooo dead ringer is the crutch example.
@@Mich-jk2ze Nah, a bad spy will still do horrendously and it has a high skill ceiling with hidden complexity
@@gekohno sure, a player who misses his shots will not do well regardless, but the ease of use is what’s stupid.
it allows players who don’t know much if anything about spy to be able to get a second chance free of cost.
many times, bull rushing and popping it, then flanking while invisible works against bad to decent players.
the ringer just drags out his interactions and it’s silly to me.
the cloak and dagger and invis watch let the spy play very tactically and wise while the dead ringer rewards dumb plays and gives seconds chances with no requirement.
2 instakill classes of the game require different things.
Spy: luck, picking the target, being sneaky.
Sniper:having a mouse
Don't forget having a certain type of internet connection.
Also AIM
@@skeletonking2501 you'd be surprised how redundant this factor is, like the guy above said, a faulty internet, paired with TF2's faulty optimization and lag settings, headshots aint hard to get.
@samsalaz You can always tell who's a salty Sniper main that gets a$$mad when someone points out that game design and balance are crucial, because they start raging.
Cope harder lmao
I 100% have better aim than you. You can main Sniper all you want, but all that means to me is "i CanT gEt kIlLs UnLesS I cAmP gIaNt SiGhtLiNeS aNd JusT kEeP mY cUrSOr aT hEaD-lEvEl" and 98% of the time, I'm right.
God Sniper mains are so trash lmao, that's why you all install bots and aim scripts haha.
@@skeletonking2501 nah just click on people
"Weapons designed to counter one class should not be available"
You're right, we need more jarate's to counter *every* class.
I mean Jarate has its own separate problems. They're comparable in the basic sense that they're both secondaries for the same class but beyond that they're totally different. And even then I'd still always take an overpowered weapon with easily adjusted stats over a conceptually flawed mess like the Razorback.
Giving sniper immunity to backstabs would be like giving a class immunity to his headshots
Oh wait…
They tried once. And it was given to Sniper too...
The old Danger Shield...
Wow
I don't see your point? So what sniper counters spy who cares (other than spy mains stay mad you ambi worshipping deadringer kunai using assholes)
@@RandomFurry07 what about the battalions backup (I don’t know if I wrote that right
@@REALSiMoonSter hey at least it takes time, ammo, and health to build that immunity
I've always liked the idea of it giving damage resistance from behind. It'd be a sort of interesting defensive/retreat tool.
- We already have code to check for where a player's back is, used for backstabs, so it shouldn't be all too hard for add.
- It has use against all classes as a retreat tool, letting you reposition or run for cover with increased survivability.
- It's got high interactivity, as skilled snipers could spin around and position themselves against sources of incoming damage in more direct fights (extra synergistic for bow snipers).
I'm no game designer, but I think it could be fun.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
The check for being able to backstab uses the collision hull rather than the hitbox that’s used for hitscan. It would likely require splitting all the classes hitboxes in two or they could use a check for what face the hitscan ray went through. Wouldn’t be as simple as reusing code.
@@zo0ot404 That's true, I didn't consider that.
Well either way, aside from the fact that TF2 is made out of spaghetti code that's hard to work with, it shouldn't be _all too hard_ to add. Maybe. Hopefully.
"the bot shield" perfect for bots to reduce all incoming damage
@@runius0 dear god
Not the spy but it can use back scatter thing
With the amount of couterplay that heavy has, he is absolutely the class deserving of their own razorback more than any other.
The fists of steel exist and the brass beast gave you damage resistance when revved up... Until they decided that for whatever reason it should only apply when
You can’t butter knife a heavy to death a sniper on the other hand it’s possible
Heavy isn't a very counter-able class.
He has an item for every counter which counters the counter.
@@doctorhealsgood5456 nah, let him be like the Sniper. Let heavy by immune to headshots while still using his main weapon. It's only fair.
he has the dragon minigun to counter spies
5:04 i am 96% sure he used this analogy just so he could put that comic in the video
As a spy main, the existence of the razorback invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER which is the most annoying thing for a knife that's mostly only good for taking out engineer nests. So if you are using it for dealing with sentries you are completely unable to kill snipers due to the fact that you will always be visible to a sentry
" invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER " but ... why use the YER? This thing sucks. And if you don't want to use the Kunai out of fairness then use the Big Earner or the stock Knife. It's way better.
@@DommTom I stated "mostly only good for taking out engineer nests" im well aware that its overshadowed by most other knives. I'm saying that the razorback makes an already underused weapon even less enjoyable and less preferred
@@DommTom YER now sucks, so it should be fixed to at least not suck
Butter knife or le tranger him it’s what I do
@@kamikadze9482 really just needs the 33% faster cloak drain removed that’s really what kills it forces you to run the le tranger
I love how you made the point against the "just shoot him" claim people make for the razor back. As well as sentrys making this claim wrong snipers who are really good will be looking around and headshot you two seconds after they see you.
Yeah sadly just shoot him doesn't work when they intentionally break the one weapon meant to do just that.
That's sort of the issue with Sniper in general. Good Snipers are completely impossible to kill and can shut down an entire map. It doesn't matter how much you sporadically spazz around as Scout. That Sniper will get you if you are in his sightlines. If you come around the corner as medic he will instantly delete you with a quick scope.
People like to say the Sydney Sleeper sucks but it really doesn't. When fully charged it does 150 damage on body shot just like any rifle. Pair that with the fast charge and you have yourself a spammable Medic killer that requires absolutely no skill whatsoever to use.
They never should have added Sniper to TF2. He does not belong. Everything else about the game is too fundamentally built around close combat with things like limited weapon reach and damage falloff.
The damage is done now though and sadly removing classes is out of the question, as much as I honestly would not complain. All we can do is hope Valve gets off their asses and does that Heavy update like they said they would after Jungle Inferno. I hear it was supposed to come with Sniper nerfs.
@@igetboredproductions No sniper on earth is that good without hacks.
@@vyor8837 we must have completely different tf2 experiences. I often face against a sniper (or snipers) who will shut the entire server down. even if the sniper is cheating, its unlikely that they will be kicked if its subtle enough.
@@CreeperthanPasta cheaters usually get kicked pretty fast in my experience.
another example of how ridiculous the razor back is:
what if they made a secondary for engineer, that makes his buildings immune to sappers, while still alerting the engineer to presence of the spy?
How about giving spy a gun that gives him immunity to fire based weapons?
@@Qualicabyss Spycicle
Not a gun but
@@badopinionssquid1735 I mean complete passive immunity, not you can maybe escape once
@@Qualicabyss 30 seconds is a long time to recharge
And you could argue they can just run back to spawn
But that accomplishes the same effect as outright killing them so
@@badopinionssquid1735 well it's pretty balanced and some people even say it's underpowered because 1 flame particle completely deletes it
Love how Sniper, an already OP class, was designed to have its downside to be that if he lacks awareness, he ded, and they just kept on adding weapons that are designed specifically to make you live if you're unaware of your surroundings. Can't detect Spies? Razorback. Can't stop a Pyro from getting close? DDS. Can't stop Scouts from getting in your face? Jarate+Bushwacka.
Sniper isn't op, his downside is his lack of mobility and awareness. Not JUST awareness. And your reasons completely contradict eachother, you can't equip the Jarate DDS and Razorback all at the same time. So just switch class or weapon depending on what he's wearing. Not detecting spies "skill" is irrelevant due to the invis watch not to mention the spy can just shoot the sniper, DDS only really counters the flareguns, not so much the flamethrowers. if a Pyro close to you, then it doesn't matter you have the DDS equipped, you are dead anyway. and Scouts outrun melee range, so not sure how a Jarate Bushwacka counters Scout.
@@MrTriple3D sniper player spotted
@@MrTriple3D The lack of mobility is only a weakness if you are playing competitive 6's otherwise it's not an issue at all. Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory. Spy's have to uncloak and make a loud sound when doing so plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank. DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit. And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance.
Your entire comment is null which is no surprise from somebody trying to defend sniper as being a balanced class.
@@aganaom1712 not argument presented
@@bigblue344 the lack of mobility is a weakness all across the board. a sniper is never going to be able to escape 2 competent scouts/soldiers/demos.
"Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory." none of them are "hard counters" at all. they're counters but not hard counters.
of course spies make noise. don't be surprised when you get instakilled for uncloaking behind somebody.
"plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank." is redudant,
"DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit." is completely dependant on your positioning. you're not gonna escape a pyro if you're not near spawn with the DDS.
"And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance." ok so either i'm a god or i'm trash. how does that make sense?
i can't explain to you why i believe sniper isn't op but i have found a video that describes what i think pretty well. watch jbirds "is sniper op" video
I'm not sure if its been mentioned, but being unable to be overhealed puts you at a disadvantage. You cave in to spam a lot easier, and will be at more of a disadvantage in sniper v sniper fights if your medic knows to top off snipers before heading out
yeah but snipers are not at the front lines where the other 8 classes hes meant to avoid getting too close to are, yeah sniper v sniper fights give you a disadvantage if the other is overhealed but a sniper v sniper duel mostly based on skill hes over heal clocks in at 185 but that number is decreasing by the second most of the time you'll stay scoped in long enough to kill them in one headshot anyway the razorback handicaps the spy hes not even that good of a counter his class is literally Made to counter sniper and IF hes using the ambassador it also handicaps his revolver dps other then his headshots the razor back is made to screw over the other class made to counter him which makes it unfair for the spy
Lack of overheal shouldn't matter in casual play considering you often aren't the focus on the medic.
Especially if you aren't rolling the enemy team, the medic is usually too busy healing to be giving everyone overheal.
@@tylerbreau4544 I've buffed plenty of snipers who subsequently survive a quick headshot and then win their sniper duels right after.
It does help, and it's something a medic can do when there's down time and no immediate action to prioritize. Generally I just go around buffing everyone that has critical heals active because over heal is quick to give and extremely helpful
I would say this thing would be better if it also protected from things like the back burner and backscatter, but then I realized that’s basically saying “It now screws over more classes for putting themselves at a pretty decent risk by getting behind a sniper to begin with!”.
No way, real Dr Bright?
Lets say it aint gonna do a lot against my force a nature with crit a cola
King&Trix's razorback is really nice, basically replaces the "no backstab" with "If you die you splash jarate everywhere"
Basically, sniper pisses himself on death and soaks any nearby players
Also gives extra speed and max primary ammo if you have a bow, but that's not as important
Then it's not... a shield on your back what the fuck is the point of it?
@@Dovah_Slayer Since you clearly can't think, I'll do it for you:
If a Sniper gets backstabbed (and it isn't the YER, I'll get to it), then the Spy will be revealed _and_ coated in mini-crit juice that shows exactly where he is. Instead of helping the Sniper survive (which, as discussed in the video you clearly didn't watch, is a terrible idea), it helps his team avenge his death.
If the Spy is using the YER, then... "hey Sniper, why are you suddenly coated in Jarate? You didn't throw it, since you have the thing that coats the Spy in jarate upon backstab... eh, I'll go with a random Sydney Sleeper shot at close range, even though you don't necessarily have it equipped."
@btf_flotsam478 YOU can't think, apparently debuffs (jarate milk bleed etc) are SEVERELY NERFED when spy cloaks making this theoretical razorback completely useless so long as the spy has ANY GAME SENSE AT ALL; thats as dumb as the "lock into melee" idea someone else has you wanna know how to beat the razor back just remember SPY HAS A GUN. Everyone literally bitches about a weapon that can be bypassed by just having basic fucking game sense the razor back literally doesn't have to be changed at all. Spy mains just need to actually use their fucking arsenal appropriately. Hell spy mains routinely use a gun that is super effective at close range so long as you can hit heads you literally hard counter Sniper yet you want to focus on the one weapon that gives the sniper a barely tangible advantage (that changing it to LITERALLY ANYTHING else would be actually useless)
@@Dovah_Slayer Retards like you seem to forget that being able to partially negate something by using up a valuable resource doesn't make it completely useless.
The fact this was added in the same updated as the amby makes you question valve's thought process
"we have a weapon that renders snipers immune to spy's one-hit knife! (it works only once)"
"we have a revolver that [then]
could headshot anyone from across the map"
I mean, it makes sense. You give sniper something to counter his biggest weakness, which is seeing behind him. So, you give spy something to get around this. I dont see what's confusing.
@@Jpmrocks7 Because it completely negates the razorback by potentially one shotting the sniper with a crit or at the least draing his health down to where you can finish him with a simple poke
@@heavysbeltbuckle you forgot that execution is a key here. for experienced spy it may be no difference, but for a noob spy scoring a backstab is 100x easier than headshotting and finishing the sniper.
@@velDANTe It's not even about the execution. Like the example in this video, it makes dealing with a sniper backed up by his team near impossible, if not a suicide mission. And again, Spy is supposed to counter Sniper
@@M4x_P0w3r I would counter that dealing with any class backed up by their team is near impossible, or suicide mission. Spy is a support class that relies on confusion and inattentiveness to do his job. The Razorback does need a rework but its not a spy's bane given most of the time a good attentive sniper will notice the spy before a backstab anyway forcing the spy to shoot or flee.
I really like the idea of the razorback making backstabs deal a significant and static amount of HP, something like 100hp, and maybe it not shocking the spy if it would result in a kill. It wouldn't even need any other stats aside from what it has now and I'd think it'd be pretty balanced.
Kunai spies will never recover from this. Good.
@@NotMirrorspeople use kunai outside of x10?
@@ciphergacha9100 yeah, it's like, the most common knife to see a Hale's Own of in casuals
As for the Darwin's Danger Shield: I think it's rework should be reverted... But without the bullet resistance/explosive vulnerability. It would mean that Sniper can still be insta-headshot but still allows him to take a bit more damage in general.
imagine protecting your team from spys by going in the middle of them and when a spy tryes to backstab one, he backstabs the razorback
8:58 a demoknight charging at a spy using razorback as a shield would be terrifying for the spy
13:37 should also work like the spycicle, when you loose the shield you cant use any weapons. because other wise snipers would intentionally run into enemies and destroy their shields to gain the speedboost
The spycicle doesn’t let you use weapons when it’s melted? Coulda sworn you can use your gun if it is.
@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 it gets rid of the gun no idea what this guy is on about
@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 Good luck using your primary agaisnt every single other class that outguns you and outpowers you while being a class thats based around precise pick decision making and stealth to outset that inbalance
@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 you sacrifice you main weapon to escape. Imagine if you still coild backstab while being fire immune
@@isaac922 because people always do that when something grants a speed boost. It doesn't even metter because you will be escaping🤨
"The Razorback involves absolutely no input from the Sniper himself"
You are wrong. You have not yet experienced the delight of intentionally doing a 180 during a melee fight to force a Spy into stabbing it and then using schadenfreude at them for giving +1 to your strange razorback.
Viable? Not really. The peace of mind is solid if you really have problems with spies. But the sheer audacity of breaking apart a spy teleport camping or ruining a chainstab is understandably powerful.
Oh god. It's just SO extra to put your back to a Spy so his butterknife becomes a big stun.
But what's equally funny is when you use the Amby/Diamondback to crit them, and then butterknife them when they turn around on you.
It's a dumb weapon, but you could argue that the Pomson and Bison are dumb weapons as they border Friendly levels of harmful.
That’s the counter to my counter of just butter knifing razorback snipers to death hit em with the London welcome
The Razorback is bad because, with no input from its user, an enemy spy is forced to not use the most important part of their kit, and is forced to either pathetic butterknifing, or using the revolver, which just exposes them without guaranteeing a kill.
Imagine in Call of Duty where you could equip something that suddenly made you immune to shotguns, forcing the enemy to use a pistol instead while you just blast them away.
I remember pre-Razorback nerf, I once pocketed such a Sniper with the Vaccinator. We were defending the first control point in Dustbowl, and went all 4:30 minutes without either of us dying. See, enemy Spies picked me instead of him. But he could quickscope them if they came after me. Enemy Snipers couldn't see me, so they quickscoped him, but he'd survive. Everyone else got shut down by his headshots, and even random crits couldn't kill him because of my Vaccinator. A Spy *did* break his Razorback but they were too late. So that nerf was necessary.
"We basically know that snipers only equip the Danger Shield when being harrassed by flares."
Incorrect! I equip it with its set because I like making little tombstones.
God! Some people.
12:29 from my experience with die hard sniper mains, this is exactly the kind of thing they would try to pull off.
The razorback could be reworked as a take less damage from the back at the cost of slightly more damage from the front type of weapon, backstabs could deal 80-90% of total hp.
I would just say reduced damage from behind is a fair enough balance just because you are giving up useful and defensive secondary's.
@@bigblue344 A.K.A. Jarate
@@bigblue344 You can still just shoot people in the head, aim and shoot. The same thing everything else does.
The Engineer killing himself with his own wrangled sentry makes me happy in ways I can't explain.
13:37 I think this also creates a great counter your counter moment because you create the situation of using the Backscatter to counter that Razorback Sniper
How to balance: Cause the screen to vibrate when a spy is near. Similar to the Spycicle, it provides a counter-counter by hindering the class' primary mechanic. It is hard to land headshots when the screen is moving on its own. This can even be made into the design of the weapon: the big battery on the shield is the vibrator that detects spies in the vicinity.
I would remove the backstab protection, because being alerted to a spy's presence is enough of a buff.
Turning the Razorback into the Rumblepack
Here's a silly idea. What if spy wasn't stunned when he backstabs the razorback so he can still make quick plays, but now sniper is launched forward like a backstabbed uber. Imagine that you shove the sniper into the middle of your team or maybe off a cliff. Could be a fun new game dynamic.
An idea that I had for the razorback could be that it stops a spy from cloaking/disguising because of the electricity running through it. It would obviously have to be changed slightly to make that work but it would be an interesting counter way to instead of how it is now
Yeah, still a few problems, but a lot better.
Why doesn’t the car battery do anything but just FX?
Holy shit someone finally talked about this thank you
Almost every single point you make here is dead on, although I personally think the worst bit isnt even the backstab immunity, but the fact the spy cannot do any counterplay after a razoback stab, due to being stunned
Right, removing the stun would actually force the sniper to play defensively in a situation that he really should be losing in anyways.
About someone "finally" talking about it:
FishStickOnAStick has "Sniper's Backpack Bonanza", a great video on all of Sniper's backpacks, proposing changes for them as well.
Now, this video is good as well.
I fairly recently back stabbed a razorback sniper (I wasn't paying attention and didn't even notice he was wearing it) when my stab didn't do anything I just assumed I missed and stabbed him again, he had really bad tunnel vision due to my team doing a push on payload.
As WitheRosE said, Fish Stick on a Stick did talk about this a while back on his channel, although that was focused on all backpacks and not just the Razorback.
Although he did say that even as a Sniper main, the Razorback and Danger Shield are complete clusterf%cks that are just designed to say "screw you" to one class. (Spies and Pyros)
He stated that it wasn't enough effort to shut down Pyro and Spy players and that they should definitely be reworked.
I will be forever bitter about the old panic attack. It was my favorite primary on 3 classes.
7:24 never seen a ragdoll like that
Not using other secondaries is the sacrifice, i am willing to make
When I heard the word razorback I thought of a cosmetic where sniper has spikes on his back but then I heard weapon and i just gave up like what even is the razorback? A surf board?
Razorback can be a surprisingly useful item. And even when it's not bringing any active use by shocking the backstabber, it genuinely makes you feel less paranoid about the potential threat of Spies sneaking up right behind you.
duh, that's the point of the video
an idea I had while watching this video is "The Eye Back" an item that helps snipers combat their own tunnel vision by making semi subtle alerts when an enemy class is nearby
Sniper tryhard: (Has Razorback)
The Spy's Ambassador: *"Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste."*
The "scent tree down" at 5:10 made me laugh much more than it should have.
Imagine walking over to the oblivious sniper, about to get the backstab, then the razorback just appears right into existence. Now you have to shoot em', but you forgot about you have the LETRANGER equipped.
Lstranger is decent at killing the sniper if you shove it up the sniper’s ass and don’t miss 3 shots in a row
Take away the backstab immunity and replace it with hurting and movement-stunning a spy for a sew seconds. Make stabbing more of a tactical choice, as you will always secure the kill but might not be able to walk away after unless the target is alone and you have enough health.
The main issue is there is absolutely no reason to ever stab or interact with it. The short circuit has the exact same problem - no sane player with more than 10 hours uses the primary fire. You need to be in shotgun-range for it to even hit.
The Razorback forces spies to THINK and switch things up a bit, im not even a sniper main, i play engi, but weapons that allow or force classes to switch things up are definitely interesting, and the razorback is rarely ever used by decent players, most people who use it just think they're immune to spies and never unscope, the diamondback or the ambassador almost nullify the razorback entirely
Wdym "force spies to think" it's pulling out your revolver and shooting the guy 3 times before he dies, anyone who's played Spy for over 10 hours would've figured that out by now.
Not saying I disagree that weapons which force classes to switch things up are a bad idea, but the Razorback just fails in that concept entirely, it's only ever been either a boring obstacle that does nothing but make a Sniper's death more tedious or a massive annoyance to spies who just want to use the basic mechanic of their class and sometimes HAVE to do so if they want ensure they'll get that Sniper pick.
Compare that to Jarate which is much better at forcing Spies to think since it punishes them for getting caught out and discourages them from making risky decloaks right next to a sniper as they can't just cloak away anymore if the Sniper hears them and turns around.
Let's make another comparison of the point I'm getting across.
Rescue Ranger and the Short Circuit.
Rescue Ranger can be an actually interesting challenge for Soldiers and Demos as it opens up more opportunities for every class involved, the Engineer can now heal his buildings without the risk of being shot himself, but it isn't as strong as hitting it 2 times with your wrench and the primary weapon itself sucks at defending yourself when your sentry goes down. Alternatively, you can grab your sentry from far away and save it from spam or a sticky trap that's about to detonate, but at the cost of half your metal and being more susceptible to direct attacks while carrying your buildings.
This is a good example of a weapon that gives you more options to deal with your class counters instead of just taking away options from Soldier and Demo themselves, and an interaction that at least I find interesting.
Compare that to the Short Circuit, which is the exact opposite of my previous sentence. It does nothing but delete Soldier and Demo's main sources of damage, it's only major downside is nullified by having a Dispenser next to you, it may or may not be fun for the Engineer but definitely isn't fun for the Soldier or Demo, and does nothing but shut down the mechanics of another class.
Razorback is no different from the latter, it's only useful for countering a single class, it's not fun for either class, and at best, still ruins class interactions.
Does it? A better description would be that it allows Snipers to NOT think. There is nothing interesting about the Razorback. It requires 0 input from the class using it and simply acts as an obstacle to the class who is meant to have an advantage in that situation. Its effectively a crutch that prevents the Sniper from properly learning the matchup.
Using Engi as an example, the Razorback is like the equivalent to if Scout got a passive secondary that let him bypass Sentry damage. Does that force Engineer to think? Or is it a lazy gimmick that lets Scout handicap his biggest counter?
@@SquimJim Pretty sure that Scout's secondary you're speaking of is the Bonk Atomic Punch, but at least this one stops you from inflicting damage on players and buildings
@Obunga Bonk isn't passive. And yeah it prevents you from attacking at all.
it should not be the job of the spy to change their entire playstyle to check the class they're DESIGNED TO COUNTER, just because the Sniper equipped a shield that does nothing else. It's a crutch weapon for worse snipers or a broken weapon for good snipers playing against competent spies.
You said you were an engineer main. Alright then - do you think it would be balanced if you had a weapon that just auto deleted explosive projectiles if they entered within a radius of your sentry? I'm not talking the Short Circuit - it costs metal and has to be aimed, meaning there is interaction. I'm saying: you equip a secondary, and now any and all projectiles flying at your sentry just vanish in a puff of smoke. Would that be fair? That the soldier and demo's core design to counter Engineer just gets completely negated? It's just inherently bad game design.
What if you could take the shield and whack people over the head with it to stun them or do more damage than your melee? Perhaps do the weapon stun? I feel like it should still be particularly effective against spies.
I like your idea of turning Sniper into the Australian equivalent of Captain America
I pretty much just have a Vintage Razorback as a spite card for if a Spy backstabs me while sniping.
what happens if i watch your videos before breakfast?
Thats what I'm doing lol
You get kidnapped and get shot in the back of the head after being tortured with car bateries
It's simple.
You die
You die instantly. Instantly!
@@SquimJim Get rekt Squim I said it first
As someone who basically never unequipped the razorback, i'm of the opinion that the razorback is mainly useful because backstab hit registration is broken AF. You're fighting a spy, knife v kukri, the frenchman wipes his butterknife across your face and suddenly you're instakilled because it counted as a backstab. You say "that's bullshit" and equip the razorback, and fight the spy again. This time, when butter is applied to your face, the spy is now stunned and you kukri him. The spy says "that's bullshit" and leaves you alone. The razorback is now a psychological weapon.
I never felt the lack of a secondary weapon because if an enemy's too close to quickscope, they're close enough to chop. It also lets you not bother spychecking everyone who comes near you because if you're as good as i used to be when i played nothing but tf2, you're able to headshot the spy before the second amby bullet hits you. No spychecking means you can focus more on sniping, making you more effective.
Ultimately, the razorback prevents one way of you being oneshot. you should be able to dodge crockets and critpills, you should be actively hunting enemy snipers, and you shouldn't be frequently in danger of melee crits, so a disguised spy walking past your team and instakilling you is actually a large portion of your one-shot deaths. turning that into a kukri-v-revolver duel massively increases your survivability if you're any good with melee.
I don't think the razorback is dumb, either in the useless or OP sense, but i certainly think a case can be made that it wouldn't be as useful if backstab hitreg actually worked.
Fun fact: the ambassador is really good against people that have the shield as they are practically admitting they won’t win a gun fight
"Bullying people for using a weapon is more annoying then the weapon itself" Somebody never had to deal with a vac medic pocketing a sniper with the machina. Or dealing a spy with a diamond back with the dead ringer.
vac medic pocketing anyone is annoying
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The Vac is somehow simultaneously a weapon I hate when other people are being pocketed by it and when I am getting pocketed by it.
Fighting a Vac pocket is a pain in the ass unless you can get your team to coordinate (a dream in random casual/pub matches) and at the same time I’d rather have the large burst of power that the Uber, Kritz, or even Quick Fix provides as opposed to getting a bullet resistance bubble against every Scout I encounter.
The thing about the deadringer is that 99% of spies don’t use it properly, and even for those that do, it cripples spy’s positioning capability in exchange for extra survivability. Right now I consider it pretty underpowered, since the big earner and the stock watch basically gives you the same effect without sacrificing your positioning capabilities
@@bruhbruh-us6gl Fair but I will always hate the dead ringer because I hate the core concept of it. When I kill something it should stay dead.
@@bigblue344 except you don't kill the spy,you just damage him
An interesting way to do it, if it had to have the backstab defense, I’d have it charge in chunks and at 100% charge it fully blocked the stab, at 50% it blocked a percentage of the damage
Wrangler shield and deadringer damage resistance + speedboost are on the same boat of minimal input for high reward. The opponents on the receiving end have to deal with Wrangler Engineers pressing the 2 key and Deadringer spies pressing right click.
Its also semi good that this thing exists, because it tricks snipers into not taking jarate, which can be a downright oppressive unlock to use in team fights
Im more afraid of jarate snipers than razorback snipers tbh
I swore to myself never to use the razorback or danger shield, if a spy kills me or a pyro kills me I say they deserve that kill, and I’ll move on.
Cringe
@@Josh-jw3go well screw you cause you’d be happy if your playing spy and you got an easy stab on me. I wasn’t trying to be toxic in the slightest but I guess a lot of people are just love being jerks don’t they,
13:43 maybe you lower the snipers speed while the shield is not broken, then give him a short boost when it breaks, because there is no downside other than locking yourself from using another secondary,
Pretty much everyone aside from sniper mains hated the razorback back in 2009, probably the one item I think should be removed from the game.
I like the suggested mechanics of a damage shield tho.
I know I'm late...but...razorback only blocks knife if rifle is at full rifle charge?
It blocks any backstab as long as the shield is intact.
And the overheal penalty is essentially pointless because who the fuck is healing snipers for long enough to overheal them?
Here's a better question: What medic heals a non Huntsman sniper?
Saw this video when it was 16 seconds old, immediately clicked. It's a good day when SquimJim uploads!
I watched it 2 days before!
I sadly only got 18 minutes late
I think a fair version of the razorback would be something like "gives 80% melee resistance on first hit, and stuns attacker for a second" or something like that, so the first hit of any weapon doesn´t immediately kill the sniper, but he still gets damaged.
eww no. demoknight already gets fucked by enough classes. dont add sniper to that.
Stun mechanics in movement shooters is fun and fair, and everyone loves it so much
It's the stun that gets you killed. Any good sniper will just spin around and insta-headshot you, even at point blank range. Just retire the fucking thing already. It was broken from day one.
@@mjsugod1385 I meant stun as in they can't swing, just like it does with the spy and the razorback now
In pubs spies forget they have a gun
To all you saying sapper is just like the razorback and whatnot spy can kill every class in the game except engineer if he doesn’t have the sapper and they aren’t paying attention, because if the engineers buildings are still up he’s just mostly dead, he hasn’t lost every means of supporting his team directly. The sapper is supposed to be an equivalent of a backstab but for the engineers building. And as such is why the sapper doesn’t insta kill as the buildings can’t notice the spy and fight back unless the spy does something stupid (not being disguised) as they can’t spy check. So instead it doesn’t insta kill so that the engineer has a chance to save his building as an equivalent of releasing your about to get backstabbed at the very last moment as any other class.
To me, the Razorback rewards Snipers for carelessness by letting them escape punishment for being snuck up on. People who say "just shoot them" are missing the point -- Spy's backstabs are supposed to be a hard counter to the Sniper. By being backstabbed as a Sniper, you are being punished for your failure not to maintain awareness of your surroundings, in the same way being shredded by the Heavy's minigun in a face-to-face battle is the game's way of telling you that fighting them head on is a bad idea.
At 3:36 he SPECIFICALLY says that the razor back does NOT do any output, while the sapper does.
You know what would be interesting? If the razorback kept the block of backstab and disable the knife, make it give spy a speed boost after breaking it. Sort of a big give and take when the two classes interact
No that's dumb
weird amount of comments, only 10?
Yeah, I think the important premise of Spy's existence was that he could easily pick off Snipers, and Snipers were less OP because of it, and Spy was more useful. Now Sniper is absolutely OP and no one except another Sniper counters him. There was a nice balance back when Razorback didn't exist.
sniper is op not because of the razor back, but because humans have had 16 years perfecting their tf2 headshots
TBH you can pick razorback snipers off using the ambassador pretty easily
I really dislike this premise of making every class equal in power to each other, because that is not what TF2 is about. Teams in-game are successful when they have good team balance, not because every class in the game is perfectly balanced.
Spys serve the purpose of taking out distracted enemies and saving teammates the trouble of dealing with tanky enemies.
While you might think that spys are designed to take care of snipers and should be able to serve that role perfectly, they are not. An item that can semi-counter a single attack from an occasional threat is not something that needs to be removed from the game.
As it stands, the razorback is perfectly balanced, even if it's a downgrade from it's standard alternative.
@@AeyakS yeah I hear you when you say that this is a TEAM game, but honestly it seems as if the game has changed into this odd, pool of 1v1’s as everyone cries over the kunai and Vaccinator due to requiring teamwork to counter. Almost as if Team Fortress 2 is no longer a team based game somehow? Idk I just think tf2 isn’t a team game anymore based of of people’s reactions to being forced to use teamwork to counter the kunai.
@@AeyakS An item specifically designed the nullify the main source of damage from another class is not a good design concept at all.
That would be like giving Sniper an item specifically designed to make him immune to fire which is Pyro's main source of dealing damage, oh wait............
11:20 The Razorback could grant 1 immunity to a melee critical hit, making it deal regular damage instead. If it's a backstab, reduce damage taken from 40 to 50% of current health, then shock.
Been playing since october 2007, 1400 hours on sniper. i've never once bothered with the razorback. the darwin danger shield was perfectly fine when it only gave +25 hp, and now i dont even touch it anymore.
I think the Razborback needs an injection of FUN, make it a selectable utility ability. Pressing 2 should activate the shield, breaking it, and sending out a stunning pulse within a short distance behind the sniper. If a Spy is working with their own teammate, there could be counter-play for the spy to intentionally remove the razorback with their knife before the sniper can activate it.
The Darwin should really just give +25 health and nothing else. It was perfectly fine as that kind of item, it was the perfect pairing for huntsman users who didnt want to stand in the same spot on the same map forever. AT MOST, I would say one could put on another effect, like.. +10-15% damage resistance while Wet, or something. Idk if the item really needs it, but it might give the item and it's niche more personality.
darwins was perfect on launch, idk why they made it counter better snipers, and when that proved to be a moronic idea, made it counter basically just the scorch shot
valve just cant balance snipers weapons i guess
3:15 ....... so I guess the Cleaner's Carbine just doesn't exist?
It does it's just not worth mentioning!
@@SquimJim Really? well that's a bit weird.
@@SquimJim Use it with the Bushwhacka and come back to this comment
@Anthony Carson I have plenty of times. Jarate is just better. The SMG is better on its own too.
i think the best sniper utility secondary is cozy camper because it helps with the burn damage making your camera jump up and down from burning from flare guns and it helps you regenerate health
I remember playing after the scout update when the Sandman was released. Took a break from the game for a while because of it. So, so bad.
The razorback isn't even a good item. Its just toxic against spies.
And frankly, the way it is right now is part of the reason that I think all of spy's revolvers should mini crit headshot
That would be beautiful. I would love that so much. That would make playing spy that much more interesting. How would you treat the Amby in this case? Just have it remain a normal full crit?
Toxic against spys? Does a sniper having a razerback prevent you from playing spy at all? And minicrits on ALL revolver headshots? You crazy? I can see that for the enforcer but not for everyone when the diamond back exists.
@@10cheesburgers amby would stay full crit but the cut off distance would be further away
@@aganaom1712 I agree, the damage fall off nerf would be a-ok if headashotting was good atleast at mid-range
7:57 this is why I use the razor back it makes sure Im with my team so if Im alone i get killed by a spy but if Ik working with my team I should have lost a secondary
I'm so happy people finally see that sniper is OP
but what defines OP I say OP means "A weapon or mechanic that is powerful yet easy to use effectively"
Sniper: The batman of TF2.
"i dont kill but the medical bills do" *breaks every single bone in the body of a poor criminal just stealing to survive*
@@Grayson-tk5hn God bless America. No free health care.
or it could be used as a sort of last resort in a sense that when the sniper is about to die and still has it it can shock the sniper for a second of speed and invincibility to escape the situation, may it be spy sniper or any other class with the only limit being that the sniper cannot use it after he sustained too much damage
I played as a spy-main and it never caused me too many problems, just a single shot followed by a cheeky facestab when they turn around, worked for me
my 276 stabs blocked and i deserve justice!
my words were not drunken ramblings! i spoke the truth! i spread the good word of the razorback!
why are you booing me?? i'm right!!!!!
Delete his comment! Delete his comment!!
sausage
@@SquimJim Why is your name Squim
"the sniper doesn't have to do anything but equip it" yeah they are giving up a power secondary slot
The Sniper Rifle is one of the most powerful things in TF2. None of Snipers secondaries compare to that power. Anything that allows Sniper to scope more often/remain scoped is inherently a pretty big plus.
But the point of that was that when it's equipped the Sniper doesn't have to do anything beyond that to screw over one of Snipers biggest counters. Imagine if Heavy had a passive secondary that made him immune to headshots. That would have the exact same fundamental flaws as the Razorback. Heavy gives up a healing secondary to counter his biggest counter. No one would seriously want that in game. For obvious reasons.
@@SquimJim the heavy being immune to one headshot a life (with a cool down) is not broken, and would not be a bad addition to the game. As long as there is a clear visual that he has it equipped. The loss of a secondary is a good trade off. Imo
@- Kidcone60 - I can't say I view messing with class dynamics by adding extremely niche hyper specific weapons designed solely to handicap a class's counter as a good thing. It's very boring for one, and isn't really fun for either party. But arguably more importantly they act as a crutch that discourages players from learning class matches, good positioning, etc
@@SquimJim I agree with that. I just want new weapons 😭
@- Kidcone60 - Haha Maybe someday!
Spy is OP if you're a new player who doesn't have sufficient game knowledge to play around them. Sniper is OP of you have a head.
As somewhat of a spy main, this is actually not true. I’ve found that the unpredictable behavior of new players make it extremely risky to attempt a backstab on them, since a failure almost certainly means death if they’re around their team. Besides this, new players are low-value targets compared to more skilled players, since skilled players are an actual threat to your team. Newer players are not, so it’s more risk for less reward. The only exception is heavy, since newer players can have a large impact and are still generally easy to backstab.
2:25 titanfall fans seeing you use Tone, A-Wall, Smart pistol, Spitfire, Archer and camping in the back of the map:
*You have chosen a fate worse than death*
"Weapons designed to counter one class should not be exist"
sapper: 👁️.👁️
Нomewrecker: 😅
Natascha: 😬
Southern hospitality: 🩸🩸🩸
Kukri that goes bleed: 🩸🩸🩸(keep forgetting this item name)
Jarate: 🍺
Darwin's shield: 🐊
Spycicle: 🥶
Huo Long heater: 😤🥵
Direct hit and loch n load: (not against one, but two classes, and one of them is the engineer that already gets countered by demos and soldiers...)
Fists of steel: 🗿
The only 2 other ones are the Danger Shield and Spy-cicle and both were explicitly called out for being badly designed weapons in this very video. As well as explaining why the Spy-cicle isn't as bad as the Razorback.
The Sapper is a stock weapon. The Natascha's slowdown works on every class. Bleed works on every class. Jarate works on every class. The Heater works on every class. The Loch-n-Load works one every class. The Fists of Steel work against every class.
The Razorback's upside literally only works against 1 (one) class.
@@SquimJim woow, so fast reply on 1 y.o. video 😅
Yeah, but they work worse on every other classes comparing to one they often used against: Jarate does not prevent going invisible 8/9 classes. Btw never saw a sniper using it against other classes except spies.
Is it a big difference between doing function worse and doing nothing? Like, there are many weapons that do nothing most of the time, like banners or recharging garate/madmilk. They are useful only in moment when they applied and useless in any other. [Just like razorback.] Never saw anyone complaining about it. I see you dont like razorback just because you cant hold it and attack with it.
Not to mention some of them simply doesnt work, like huo long heater. Kunai heal or simple *PRESS BACKSPACE TO JUMP* counters it. Yeah, not always counters. Just like not always shooting a razorback sniper is an option. But, like i said, for some reason you dont complain about chinese machine gun, do you?
You say having sapper to counter nothing but 1 class' buildings is okay because it is a stock? Okay, why we just dont make 4th slot for sniper, just like spy have, and make it for shields/backpack. No need to trade off second slot options + you have passive bonus behind yo spine. (We are not talking about making OP instakill from a distance class more OPper, just imagine in that case sniper has some nerfs to balance this buff)
Jarate is used ALL the time against all classes. It's an extremely powerful and easy to use weapon that you can just chuck at points and carts. Theres a reason it's banned competitively and that has nothing to do with Spy.
Weapons with recharges aren't really relevant to the discussion, are they? The problem with the Razorback isn't that it recharges.
The Heater is underpowered. It always has been. It also doesn't exist purely to counter Spy. It functions as a minigun regardless of whether or not a Spy is on the enemy team. You can buff the Heater.
The Sapper is a default weapon in an extra slot for Spy. He loses nothing by having it because he's always supposed to have it. He was designed from day 1 to be able to act as a threat to Engineer's buildings. In TF2's development Sniper was at no point ever designed to be backstab immune. Quite the opposite. He was designed to be countered by Spy. Crutch anti-counter weapons are not a good idea ever. Sniper should learn to be able to deal with his counters the same way every other class does without the need for niche 1 use weapons that only act to prevent the counter from performing 1 attack. It'd be like giving Heavy a passive secondary specifically to block or reduce headshot damage. No one would ever want that in game.
@@SquimJim just add 4th slot to sniper and here it go
@@NoName-ze8kz But why? Why would that be good for balance?
Another masterpiece by one of my favorite tf2 TH-camrs