❤ Thanks for watching my video. It seems you have an awesome community. It's always fascinating watching people react in realtime. Just an FYI I break down the 50/50 guy/girl gamer split in part 2. I was being charitable but when you get into the numbers it changes a lot I'd like to address the OF thing and the territory control study. Hindsight being 20/20 I thought most viewers would be able to make the link that depleting health bars is "territoty control" and it was exactly the kind of territory contol that the study used. The OF stuff is something that I regret saying in the sense that people immediately get angry and don't listen to what I'm saying. Partially my fault for not finding a way to get to the point quickly I guess. Another thing I cover is STEM in part 2. For those who were upset that I didn't touch on it. And yes 😅 for some of you it is hard to imagine that I am married but I have been for the last 7 years and I love my wife very much. She watches all of my videos and I check if she is ok with them before I post them. Anyways, very much enjoyed this. Thanks for the entertainment.
The simple thing is games are mostly played by guys, so it is made mostly by guys. You can cope and make excuses but that is the truth. There's no big conspiracy to this. Majority is preferred in any kind of market. Like for makeup stuffs are mostly made up of females. You (of either side) can cope, cry and make excuses that you were forced out of that industry n' stuff. But the Truth won't change. Any industry, for it to grow needs to cater to the market; specially the majority. If any industry tries to change that then it falls and gets shut down.
yep. There is nothing wrong with games making games to target the minority of gamers and appealing to their interests, but there is nothing wrong with games having beautiful or even sexualized women because that is going to appeal to the vast majority of gamers. The woke crowd use a disingenuous argument to refute this by claiming that half of gamers are women. This is just such an absurd claim that only makes sense if you take into account casual gaming on iphones. And even then, I really doubt the truth of that, at least in western countries.
i think we just gotta draw a line between realism in games and free artistic license. it's one thing to have anime girls with gravity defying boobs, but that sorta thing would be absurdly out of place in cyberpunk or RDR2. but nevertheless, just the other day, i came across a thread with a bunk of dudes literally claiming they were being opressed because video game women aren't hot enough. it was part of the whole sweet baby inc hissy fit that some dudes are throwing. it was the weirdest echo chamber i've ever encountered. they just didn't think it through beyond it's impact on them, and i think that's the core of the issue. ripped chicks are hot tho. real men want a woman who can defeat their enemies in mortal combat lol
I think that making the characters attractive in video games is the correct decision because it's a form of entertainment. Most people don't like ugly people, so why make characters ugly? IRL people are different because they have little control over their appearance and they are complex individuals. But video game characters can look however we wish for whatever purpose we wish because they are literally objects for our entertainment, and not real.
gaming as a hobby has BEGGED women to participate and be a part of a new wave in art. But women of the entire world only laughed. Why are there no female Space Marines in w40k? Because women refused to participate in the poll back in the 80s and now it is cemented in canon that only men can be S.Marines. Now that the industry has been built through sweat and obsession, women swoop in and demand everything to change for them. Ok, are you gonna pay? No? Then bye.
when I was in high school the vast majority of girls would make fun of guys who even admitted to playing videogames a little bit. God forbid another girl admitted to liking videogames - instant social outcast if they did. Then they turn around and blame men & misogyny for their lack of inclusivity. Hilarious.
Oh god.... Someone talked about the thing I majored in university for, so now I gotta write a whole ass essay. Sorry people, and I'm especially sorry to nanashi, but I gotta get this out of my system. Let me just say up front, there were parts of the video I definitely agreed with and that I found to be well argued. That being said.... As a dude who studied gender studies and feminism in the course of my studies in philosophy... Liv's lack of familiarity with the decades of feminist literature about the male gaze is beyond irritating and hurts his analysis quite a bit. Additionally, his off-handed comment about Anita Sarkeesian is literally repackaged gamergate bullshit from 2014 (though to be fair to him, he probably doesn't realize that). There wasn't anything objectionable about FeministFrequency, besides them being a little annoying to people who hate women (obviously not talking about Liv here, just to be absolutely clear). Furthermore, the idea that women simply don't like game development is laughable; Liv fails to account for the way that women were forced out of computing in the late 70s and 80s; women made up the majority of the workforce in computing before that point. The golden age of NASA was powered by overwhelmingly female computational engineers. This was largely because computing was seen as secretarial labor and thus a woman's job. So women in computing were pushed out of the sexism into even more sexism. As a chatter points out, Liv also completely ignores the discrimination against women in STEM fields, which contributes to a continued lack of female representation in computing. Game development is downstream of computer science and programming, so how the fucking fuck are women gonna crack it at solo game dev when they're harassed out of STEM? This is a fatal flaw in Liv's analysis which goes completely unnoticed by him because he is unfamiliar with what he's talking about. We are in a situation where computation would be nowhere without the contributions of women, but when you look at the field they are almost nowhere to be found (women exist in computation, obviously, but not at the rates they would if they hadn't been pushed out). I have to say, it's VERY fucking easy for a man to say "sure, have at it, make me uncomfortable with new video games" when 1) there are so few female game devs who have final authorial control over what they develop, which makes the possibility of such video games less likely and 2) the consequences of objectification are inequitably experienced between the sexes. His misunderstanding of the meta-analysis leads him to the incorrect conclusion that all is equal when it comes to video games in terms of sexualization; this is false. When a man is sexualized and objectified, he is glorified, framed as domineering, and retains his agency over his surroundings. When a woman is sexualized and objectified, she is subjected to the whims of her superiors (which can include the player), she is seen as being rightfully acted upon, and she does not retain agency over herself (let alone her surroundings). It is not hard to see why this is a dangerous discrepancy and can contribute to less-than-ideal standards. Liv recognizes that both sexes experience sexualization and objectification, but fails to analyze the concrete differences in the nature of that shared quality. They are worlds apart. As Yuzu astutely points out, lack of media literacy is a huge problem that is compounded by youthful ignorance. It is not that everything in media must be prim and proper, "go girl power!"; instead, producers of media should strive to use the colloquial understanding in the current public consciousness to represent the subject matter in a way that frames the agency of women as normative, regardless of whether women are sexualized in that media. Worth noting that this approach can accommodate the objectification of women, provided it is in the context of framing which also represents the bodily/mental harm such treatment inflicts on a person. Or maybe media could represent the objectification of a woman in a manner similar to a man's objectification, retaining her agency. In other words, if a game is going to sexualize and objectify a woman, the player should be able to understand through the content of the game the consequences of that having been done to her. There ARE games that do this. The obvious objection to this that people will bring up is Nikke. As far as I am aware, the dev team is mostly female, so what gives? Liv jokes about how you somehow need to be a conspiracy theorist to think that women making games would create sexualized and objectified female characters knowingly to appeal to the male gaze in a way that could conceivably harm women, but this is actively demonstrable. Studies of writer's rooms have found that more gender-diverse rooms did not correlate with less harmful representations of women in media. In other words, what Liv casually dismisses as a conspiracy theory is demonstrated by the data already. Does this reflect poorly on the Nikke devs? No, not really. And here's why: One writer room full of women cannot by themselves produce a smash hit that brings forth a countervailing representation of women, changing the media landscape in one fell swoop. That's not how media trends work. This is a cultural issue and more work needs to be done, not just in writer's rooms and game studios (Liv is right to bring up Blizzard among others), but also on the consumer-side. Values need to change and that is very hard work that requires people like Anita Sarkeesian at FeministFrequency changing the conversation about what we want from our media. This is largely why she was hated by 4chan nazis and is also why the prevailing narrative was against her; she is fighting an uphill battle against patriarchal norms that were born out of the sexism against women in the workplace which I described earlier. This is why Nikke exists, from a social and structural point of view. Of course, women love sexy women too (as evidenced by the Nikke dev team), but the reason so much media is still so male-gazy is because of patriarchal norms which are enforced through specific power relationships between men and women. quick caveat: what I'm saying is that Nikke isn't really the problem here and no serious feminist author I've read would say so; the problem is the power relations. It's not that we can't have silly games with anime women shooting guns to make their butts jiggle to the delight of the internet. It's that in a world where women are deprived of agency over themselves and their own bodies, representations which disfavor women's agency serve to uphold those power structures. That is the issue; not games like Nikke in and of themselves. If there is a SINGLE point anyone takes from reading this, I hope it is this one. ^^^^^^ Finally, we must return to the issue of media literacy, a topic Liv discusses (and he does so with much clumsiness). The fact is, I don't think Nikke and other games like it are a problem; what IS a problem is that it is adult content that kids shouldn't have access to. We already accept that certain kinds of movies are inappropriate at certain ages (I think it depends on the child on an individual basis). And we already accept the notion that minors should not access adult content outside of age-appropriate sex education (for all that's worth, as we all know we were searching up porn before 18). At the very least we can agree that more needs to be done with regard to media literacy. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with guys like Liv. To anyone who resonated with Liv's main points, I am begging you to read some feminist film theory, visual studies, and masculinity studies (yes the last one is a feminist field of study). To be clear, some of Liv's video is very well presented and argued, but there is a some latent antifeminism in it that I'm sure Liv and others like him would prefer to distance themselves from. I'm not saying to read a book because I think Liv is stupid; FAR from it. It's because there are very good points made by the video (like male disposability among some other things) that are genuinely great arguments. It's just that occasional dig at body positivity is really jarring when sat next to those decent points. If I hadn't enjoyed those good points from the video, I would never have written this essay. Just to be absolutely clear. If you've read this far, you rule. Also, Yuzu once again time after time proving she has hella big brains when it comes to this stuff. Great points brought up by her, no notes.
I agreed with everything you said except for Sarkessian. She didn't deserve any of the shit she went through, and the majority of the pushback towards her was from gamergaters. However, some of the arguments she made weren't particularly... good. She does address legit problems, but some of her points lean towards the side of pop-feminism, which hasn't been particularly productive. Thankfully, we've come a bit further when it comes to addressing the male gaze
My issue with this is that you seem to take issue with sexualized women in games because it “upholds patriarchal norms.” I don’t even necessarily disagree with that, but my problem is that you and your people seemingly want to ban, censor, or otherwise heavily scrutinize this kind of content until we have reached a theoretical utopia where men and women are equal. And I am against censorship as a blanket rule.
Oh wow, I was not expecting this kind of detailed essay on this kind of video. The point about there being a difference in the nature of how men and women are objectified, it may seem obvious to some, but I never thought about it that way before. Made me think about all the media I've watched before.
Based Yuzu ✊ The original vid she's reacting to is a mixed bag tho Edit: Fuck it, I'm gonna say it: the video turned into incel bait at the end, and he tries to claim that men are inherently more "gamer" than everyone else. I'm just glad not everyone took it hook, line, and sinker.
![[Mr Caption] No Todds, No Masters critique Fallout 4 (reupload)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zbaa2P9qL40/mqdefault.jpg)
❤ Thanks for watching my video. It seems you have an awesome community.
It's always fascinating watching people react in realtime. Just an FYI I break down the 50/50 guy/girl gamer split in part 2. I was being charitable but when you get into the numbers it changes a lot
I'd like to address the OF thing and the territory control study. Hindsight being 20/20 I thought most viewers would be able to make the link that depleting health bars is "territoty control" and it was exactly the kind of territory contol that the study used. The OF stuff is something that I regret saying in the sense that people immediately get angry and don't listen to what I'm saying. Partially my fault for not finding a way to get to the point quickly I guess.
Another thing I cover is STEM in part 2. For those who were upset that I didn't touch on it.
And yes 😅 for some of you it is hard to imagine that I am married but I have been for the last 7 years and I love my wife very much. She watches all of my videos and I check if she is ok with them before I post them.
Anyways, very much enjoyed this. Thanks for the entertainment.
An interesting video essay to react to. Love Yuzu's takes on male and female comparison in gaming. 😊
The simple thing is games are mostly played by guys, so it is made mostly by guys. You can cope and make excuses but that is the truth. There's no big conspiracy to this. Majority is preferred in any kind of market. Like for makeup stuffs are mostly made up of females. You (of either side) can cope, cry and make excuses that you were forced out of that industry n' stuff. But the Truth won't change. Any industry, for it to grow needs to cater to the market; specially the majority. If any industry tries to change that then it falls and gets shut down.
yep. There is nothing wrong with games making games to target the minority of gamers and appealing to their interests, but there is nothing wrong with games having beautiful or even sexualized women because that is going to appeal to the vast majority of gamers. The woke crowd use a disingenuous argument to refute this by claiming that half of gamers are women. This is just such an absurd claim that only makes sense if you take into account casual gaming on iphones. And even then, I really doubt the truth of that, at least in western countries.
@@simonphoenix3789 yup
yeah, gamers have been 50/50 within the bargain of error for decades no, but i still meet dudes who think girls don't game.
Caught in 4k Brody🤣🤣🤣🤣
Great stream nana
i think we just gotta draw a line between realism in games and free artistic license. it's one thing to have anime girls with gravity defying boobs, but that sorta thing would be absurdly out of place in cyberpunk or RDR2. but nevertheless, just the other day, i came across a thread with a bunk of dudes literally claiming they were being opressed because video game women aren't hot enough. it was part of the whole sweet baby inc hissy fit that some dudes are throwing. it was the weirdest echo chamber i've ever encountered. they just didn't think it through beyond it's impact on them, and i think that's the core of the issue.
ripped chicks are hot tho. real men want a woman who can defeat their enemies in mortal combat lol
Get your muscles back Yuzu! its hot!
I think that making the characters attractive in video games is the correct decision because it's a form of entertainment. Most people don't like ugly people, so why make characters ugly? IRL people are different because they have little control over their appearance and they are complex individuals. But video game characters can look however we wish for whatever purpose we wish because they are literally objects for our entertainment, and not real.
gaming as a hobby has BEGGED women to participate and be a part of a new wave in art.
But women of the entire world only laughed.
Why are there no female Space Marines in w40k? Because women refused to participate in the poll back in the 80s and now it is cemented in canon that only men can be S.Marines.
Now that the industry has been built through sweat and obsession, women swoop in and demand everything to change for them. Ok, are you gonna pay? No? Then bye.
when I was in high school the vast majority of girls would make fun of guys who even admitted to playing videogames a little bit. God forbid another girl admitted to liking videogames - instant social outcast if they did.
Then they turn around and blame men & misogyny for their lack of inclusivity. Hilarious.
Oh god.... Someone talked about the thing I majored in university for, so now I gotta write a whole ass essay. Sorry people, and I'm especially sorry to nanashi, but I gotta get this out of my system. Let me just say up front, there were parts of the video I definitely agreed with and that I found to be well argued. That being said.... As a dude who studied gender studies and feminism in the course of my studies in philosophy...
Liv's lack of familiarity with the decades of feminist literature about the male gaze is beyond irritating and hurts his analysis quite a bit. Additionally, his off-handed comment about Anita Sarkeesian is literally repackaged gamergate bullshit from 2014 (though to be fair to him, he probably doesn't realize that). There wasn't anything objectionable about FeministFrequency, besides them being a little annoying to people who hate women (obviously not talking about Liv here, just to be absolutely clear).
Furthermore, the idea that women simply don't like game development is laughable; Liv fails to account for the way that women were forced out of computing in the late 70s and 80s; women made up the majority of the workforce in computing before that point. The golden age of NASA was powered by overwhelmingly female computational engineers. This was largely because computing was seen as secretarial labor and thus a woman's job. So women in computing were pushed out of the sexism into even more sexism.
As a chatter points out, Liv also completely ignores the discrimination against women in STEM fields, which contributes to a continued lack of female representation in computing. Game development is downstream of computer science and programming, so how the fucking fuck are women gonna crack it at solo game dev when they're harassed out of STEM? This is a fatal flaw in Liv's analysis which goes completely unnoticed by him because he is unfamiliar with what he's talking about. We are in a situation where computation would be nowhere without the contributions of women, but when you look at the field they are almost nowhere to be found (women exist in computation, obviously, but not at the rates they would if they hadn't been pushed out).
I have to say, it's VERY fucking easy for a man to say "sure, have at it, make me uncomfortable with new video games" when 1) there are so few female game devs who have final authorial control over what they develop, which makes the possibility of such video games less likely and 2) the consequences of objectification are inequitably experienced between the sexes. His misunderstanding of the meta-analysis leads him to the incorrect conclusion that all is equal when it comes to video games in terms of sexualization; this is false. When a man is sexualized and objectified, he is glorified, framed as domineering, and retains his agency over his surroundings. When a woman is sexualized and objectified, she is subjected to the whims of her superiors (which can include the player), she is seen as being rightfully acted upon, and she does not retain agency over herself (let alone her surroundings). It is not hard to see why this is a dangerous discrepancy and can contribute to less-than-ideal standards. Liv recognizes that both sexes experience sexualization and objectification, but fails to analyze the concrete differences in the nature of that shared quality. They are worlds apart.
As Yuzu astutely points out, lack of media literacy is a huge problem that is compounded by youthful ignorance. It is not that everything in media must be prim and proper, "go girl power!"; instead, producers of media should strive to use the colloquial understanding in the current public consciousness to represent the subject matter in a way that frames the agency of women as normative, regardless of whether women are sexualized in that media. Worth noting that this approach can accommodate the objectification of women, provided it is in the context of framing which also represents the bodily/mental harm such treatment inflicts on a person. Or maybe media could represent the objectification of a woman in a manner similar to a man's objectification, retaining her agency. In other words, if a game is going to sexualize and objectify a woman, the player should be able to understand through the content of the game the consequences of that having been done to her. There ARE games that do this.
The obvious objection to this that people will bring up is Nikke. As far as I am aware, the dev team is mostly female, so what gives? Liv jokes about how you somehow need to be a conspiracy theorist to think that women making games would create sexualized and objectified female characters knowingly to appeal to the male gaze in a way that could conceivably harm women, but this is actively demonstrable. Studies of writer's rooms have found that more gender-diverse rooms did not correlate with less harmful representations of women in media. In other words, what Liv casually dismisses as a conspiracy theory is demonstrated by the data already. Does this reflect poorly on the Nikke devs? No, not really. And here's why:
One writer room full of women cannot by themselves produce a smash hit that brings forth a countervailing representation of women, changing the media landscape in one fell swoop. That's not how media trends work. This is a cultural issue and more work needs to be done, not just in writer's rooms and game studios (Liv is right to bring up Blizzard among others), but also on the consumer-side. Values need to change and that is very hard work that requires people like Anita Sarkeesian at FeministFrequency changing the conversation about what we want from our media. This is largely why she was hated by 4chan nazis and is also why the prevailing narrative was against her; she is fighting an uphill battle against patriarchal norms that were born out of the sexism against women in the workplace which I described earlier. This is why Nikke exists, from a social and structural point of view. Of course, women love sexy women too (as evidenced by the Nikke dev team), but the reason so much media is still so male-gazy is because of patriarchal norms which are enforced through specific power relationships between men and women.
quick caveat: what I'm saying is that Nikke isn't really the problem here and no serious feminist author I've read would say so; the problem is the power relations. It's not that we can't have silly games with anime women shooting guns to make their butts jiggle to the delight of the internet. It's that in a world where women are deprived of agency over themselves and their own bodies, representations which disfavor women's agency serve to uphold those power structures. That is the issue; not games like Nikke in and of themselves. If there is a SINGLE point anyone takes from reading this, I hope it is this one. ^^^^^^
Finally, we must return to the issue of media literacy, a topic Liv discusses (and he does so with much clumsiness). The fact is, I don't think Nikke and other games like it are a problem; what IS a problem is that it is adult content that kids shouldn't have access to. We already accept that certain kinds of movies are inappropriate at certain ages (I think it depends on the child on an individual basis). And we already accept the notion that minors should not access adult content outside of age-appropriate sex education (for all that's worth, as we all know we were searching up porn before 18). At the very least we can agree that more needs to be done with regard to media literacy. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with guys like Liv.
To anyone who resonated with Liv's main points, I am begging you to read some feminist film theory, visual studies, and masculinity studies (yes the last one is a feminist field of study). To be clear, some of Liv's video is very well presented and argued, but there is a some latent antifeminism in it that I'm sure Liv and others like him would prefer to distance themselves from. I'm not saying to read a book because I think Liv is stupid; FAR from it. It's because there are very good points made by the video (like male disposability among some other things) that are genuinely great arguments. It's just that occasional dig at body positivity is really jarring when sat next to those decent points. If I hadn't enjoyed those good points from the video, I would never have written this essay. Just to be absolutely clear. If you've read this far, you rule. Also, Yuzu once again time after time proving she has hella big brains when it comes to this stuff. Great points brought up by her, no notes.
I'm gonna say it before anyone else can: ESSAYING
I agreed with everything you said except for Sarkessian. She didn't deserve any of the shit she went through, and the majority of the pushback towards her was from gamergaters. However, some of the arguments she made weren't particularly... good. She does address legit problems, but some of her points lean towards the side of pop-feminism, which hasn't been particularly productive.
Thankfully, we've come a bit further when it comes to addressing the male gaze
TLDR: Please buy/read X book that way you can reeducate yourself to agreeing with my opinion.
My issue with this is that you seem to take issue with sexualized women in games because it “upholds patriarchal norms.” I don’t even necessarily disagree with that, but my problem is that you and your people seemingly want to ban, censor, or otherwise heavily scrutinize this kind of content until we have reached a theoretical utopia where men and women are equal. And I am against censorship as a blanket rule.
Oh wow, I was not expecting this kind of detailed essay on this kind of video. The point about there being a difference in the nature of how men and women are objectified, it may seem obvious to some, but I never thought about it that way before. Made me think about all the media I've watched before.
Based Yuzu ✊
The original vid she's reacting to is a mixed bag tho
Edit: Fuck it, I'm gonna say it: the video turned into incel bait at the end, and he tries to claim that men are inherently more "gamer" than everyone else. I'm just glad not everyone took it hook, line, and sinker.
congratulations, by using the word "incel" you're perpetuating toxic masculinity and are a textbook hypocrite.
Ah yes, calling a married man an incel, surely shaming men for their lack of sexual partners is a good thing, right?
I'm not gonna take someone who unironically say "incel" seriously