Why I changed foils from Axis to Duotone
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ธ.ค. 2024
- This is a discussion of my journey going from Axis foils to Duotone foils. It's not at all what I expected to be doing at the outset of this journey but Duotone are making some really great foils now and the decision in the end was an easy one.
Foils used in the making of this video:
AXIS BSC 890
AXIS PNG 1300
Axis HPS 1050, 980, 930, 830
Axis Spitfire 1100, 900, 840
Axis ART V1 999, 899
Axis ART PRO 1001
AK Tracer 1030
North MA 1050 V2 (I also rode the MA 850 V2 and the HA 850)
F-One SK8 950
Duotone Whizz 1000
Duotone Glide V1 905
Duotone Glide V2.0 D/Lab 900, 750, 620
Please show your appreciation for thewatersports... who kindly provided the demo foil systems.
Also checkout their instagram / thewatersportscentre
I design all my own foils but to fit on the Axis fuselage and I absolutely agree, the front of the fuselage is a bad mount design. It's robust until the threaded holes fail but it's too chunky up front and I always have to put bulge coding in to my wing algorithms so that I'm satisfied with the cross section minus the fuse front foot. I've looked at the Duotones and I think they've made progress. If I was buying instead of making, I'd probably go F1 or possibly Code, they are closest to my own design principles in shapes. The main thing that puts me off Duotone as a brand is that I've seen too many examples of their distributors disrespecting their customer's and running down their competition. I think Axis make their foils too thick, I don't agree with the straight median line either but our locals love them. Our beaches are predominantly Axis with Armstrong next most popular. Interesting that the Duotone mast was so much cheaper, I ended up making my own to fit the Axis fuselage because I had the tech no-how and I could. The aluminium mast was too thick for performance and too flimsy for my weight. I'm loving my tapered carbon mast which I've probably been riding about 8 months now. If I was starting from scratch I'd set front wing zero lift angle, built in mast socket, mast to suit and the same sort of combo stab/fuse stubs that many are doing these days.
Very interesting to read how you design around the fuselage problem. I don't have facility to make foils, so it's all test until I find what I like. Fortunately my local shop do duotone and they are superb, so no issues.
There are a lot of foils you can just copy. Gong and Fone can be ripped from the web. When I started I made a copy of the Phantom 1800 for the Gong fuselage and some Fone stab also.
It’s funny to watch this since I recently switched from monoblock foils to Axis. I like the larger range offered by Axis, the quality construction as well easy packing offered by bolt on foils and stabs. I find brands like Duotone and Cabrinha offer very limited choices in the larger area and higher aspect foils which I like to use for dock starts, light wind winging and paddle up. Lastly, the no jump” sticker only applies axis foils over 1m span so I hardly see this as an issue. Still, I enjoy watching your reviews and as you say, this works for you, but not necessarily everyone.
@scottsmith9140 it really comes down to what you want, I'm never on a foil over 900 cm2 area, so a lack of big high span foils doesn't impact my foil selections as I just don't need large foils. The glide 900 is my light wind foil. As always personal preference drives brand selection.
I started on takuma, tried axis for a bit but they didn’t have that kujira magic and had same issues with art as you, now on afs enduro which has been similarly enlightening as far as HA foils. They are truly remarkable.
I haven't ridden the Enduro yet but I have it on good authority that the Enduro and Glide are quite similar, the Enduro being a touch faster but the Glide being better at recovering back onto foil from jumps (if you are into freestyle)
Interesting. Extremely happy with my Gong V3 Veloce foils but ill pbbly try some duotone glides from the locaö dealer just to compare. Happy flying 🤙
Love your videos. Shame you didn’t get to demo the Eagle X! I’ve been blown away by the speed range on that thing. It has pretty incredible glide with it’s aspect ratio of 12, but like the Duotone Glide it’s got a lot of area in the middle, which reduces tip loading and loosens up the turns. The winglets also make it less lethal if you were to fall on it. On another note I would recommend playing around with different stabilisers and fuse lengths as that completely changes the feel of a given front foil.
yeah would have been nice to try the Eagle X - it was a foil of interest on my list but sadly not one the local shop brought in for demo. Beaches tend to favour certain brands and F-One hasn't really taken hold in our area of the coast. So local shops are therefore reluctant to bring them in as they will sit and not sell - regardless of whether they are a good foil or not. I will be playing around with some stabs and fuselages - I came from Axis and had no end of stabilisers and fuselages with them, so there is some research to do on the Duotone range.
Thank you for your review & input. I have been wondering it myself as well.
I have been riding HPS 1050 & 930 mostly and ART V2 999 in strong winds. I tried my friend's Spitfire 1100 recently, but I was not super impressed at my level wing foiling (just comfortable on heelside tacks, but no other fancy turns). Personally, I feel that PNG and HPS lines have the best bang for the buck value in AXIS lineups.
@Tobeon2 I agree. HPS foils can be picked up very cheaply second hand and for winging they offer a good level of performance. Only down sides are tip breaches and they tend to swoop a bit when dropping in on waves. I decided to move away from Axis when they started down the ultra high modulus route (expensive) and they are all still marked "do not jump", so it hasn't actually fixed the problem. Unfortunately axis need to update their fuselage design if they are to progress beyond this issue.
Thanks for the thorough breakdown of your decision making . It is almost exactly what I'm trying to find. A fast foil for winging only without an abrupt stall. I don't have a shop nearby to demo equipment so I rely heavily on the reviews of others. I am down to either the Glide or the AFS Enduro. Great job on the video.
@jjmc4 Glide if you want to jump, enduro if you don't. The glide has good jump recovery but a bit slower per size to the enduro. Otherwise they are very similar.
dont know how theglide turns, but if you re into carving and best turning, i d go enduro. the 700 is a carving gliding fun machine!!!
Similar experience (bsc->hps->artv2->duotone. Forced to switch by the price. Now have a used carbon mast (unthinkable at £3k), sls glide v2 750 (amazed that size is enough in 90% of conditions @85kg), and just got a cheap carve v2 dlab 850 as first of aio wing/fuselage and have high expectations. Think you are also right about axis focus on prone etc. personally majority locally are winging but seeing more windsurf foiling which is also tempting - keeping my axis hps for that purpose next year ...
welcome to the duotone party
I really like your detailed description of the buying proces. And most people stick to long with a brand without testing something else. I also think that axis is getting to expensive and a bit mad with the amount of foils, fuses, masts and stabs they release. They forget about the average foiler that does not want to have 1 milion combinations to choose from and still not have the right setup 😂 I recently tried the art v2 999 and I really liked it. I found it way easier and nicer than the spitfire (which stalls all the sudden and has not a great low end). I never tried the art v1, but it might also be a bit of an outdated foil for the comparison with the new Duotone. Looking forward to wat the future brings and I hope manufacturers keep it simple, because I think we should aim for a 2 foil quiver (one for light winds and one for stronger) 😉
absolutely agree - my new setup on duotone was originally just the 750 and 900 Glide. This is all I need for all conditions. I did buy the 620 as well but this was just because I wanted to try going fast, it serves that purpose but in reality I only need the 750 and 900, the 620 is really just a bit of fun but not actually needed.
Can confirm the ART v2 is that wing focussed foil you were looking for ! Does everything super well. Fast with low stall and great turning.
@andrewmitchell9892 sadly it isn't, they are all labelled no jumping and I jump. Also, not a full plane but the price of one. I'm glad it works for you but for me it doesn't meet the criteria for my use.
@@Wing-Tips I believe you are mistaken here, the ARTv2's are all fine to jump and not labeled against it
@@slappysurf maybe they changed their mind, that said I wouldn't trust them for that anyway. The ART V1s were also supposedly fine to jump and I've seen many of those broken at the fuselage connection from jumping.
@@Wing-Tips I don't jump but I will say my ARTPRO wings are pretty damn sturdy. I rode in to an asphalt boat ramp at full speed and it mostly just buffed out.
@@slappysurf I do foil repairs for the local shop now and then, so I get to see what occurs with accidents. Most foils tend to take a hit pretty well but as they are getting thinner over time the leading edges and wing tips are becoming less tolerant of big hits. I have seen ART foils broken completely at the edge of the fuse connection - usually from a jump. It's not surprising they break there - it is the weakest part of the foil due to the way the fuse connects and how thin it gets in that area. I wouldn't say it's an epidemic of broken ARTs by any means at all - just the ones I've seen always seem to break in the same place.
I am open to try new foil brands, although my wallet is not as open. 🤑😆
Thanks for the honest assesments!
That is the only limiting factor for me too 😂 , it’s more like sell first and then be able to buy less 😅
it's a difficult decision and timing can be critical as things move quite quickly and once foils get beyond a certain age their price second hand drops significantly.
Same here. Axis was ahead some years ago but this shift to downwind isn't for me. I was switching around ART899, 1099, 799 and Spitfire 840 with tails Prog 350, 300, 370, 400 and Skinny 345. My list of combinations for each condition became longer and longer, but ending up with a clear focus on the Spitfire. Then I tried the Carve2 850 and boom! It did everything in one foil with OK-Glide and the weight was 1kg less. Sold everything and switched.
@rndlab2 I've yet to ride a carve, but interested to see what they are like.
Shame you couldn't try the SK8 with the 14mm HM mast. The alloy is relatively draggy. With the HM the SK8 is an absolute weapon! No weak points at all.
Good to see you found something that you are happy with though. Axis definitely has a lot of limitations.
@@Alfonso_111 sometimes demo is a little restricted, F-One isn't in high demand in our area and so the demo range is reflective of that reduced interest. I think I'm the only one who ever took the demo SK8 out for a test.
What a great analysis. So happy I’m not alone with my impression. I had similar experience but with prone foiling. Had a lot of axis wings: bsc 890 810 art999 spitfire 900 840. Was not very successfull with those. Finally got a code 980 recently. Man - such a difference for me - night and day. First session in french atlantic I had three for ones easily.
@bbnchd6277 once you ride the right foil you realise what it is you have been missing.
So true
Good video. Went through the same myself. Same thoughts and conclusions. Big fan of full planes. I landed on Code.
We don't have a local dealer for code but I have heard good things
Same here - What a difference
@@Wing-Tips I’ve never tried the Duotone, but knew the feelings you discovered.
Likewise. Just jumped from Axis to Code after demoing the 850s. Very impressed by the full plane foil and overall quality of the build.
@@jonathanalstead a lot of people have gone over to Code foils from Axis - I guess following some of the riders from Axis that went that direction. Have heard mostly good things about code, so all power to them.
I ride with Ash regularly at our beach, I pretty much only ride the axis 840 spitfire with a skinny 45 and HM mast. Love the 840 but it to slow on big swell. I've been watching Ash on his new foil kit and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, he is flying around. Certainly impress me making me. Definitely want to try out the Duotone foils😅.
I'll be having a chat with George at the "Water Sports Centre" for sure 😉
thanks Mark - you are welcome to try mine whenever you want (as you know)
Really interested by this (as someone who doesn’t have the time or money to be testing countless foils!). I was on F-one phantom FCT 1280 but next upgrade was to carbon and having to buy a mast adapter seemed a waste so prompted me to look at other brands even though I liked Fone. I chose the AK Tracer 1030 based on reviews and because it was so much cheaper than a Sk8. Have been very impressed and just bought an 800. Am hoping that the narrow range won’t feel limited but so far so good.
AK have fleshed out the range more since my review of that foil. At the time the AK Tracer 1030 was the first of their new designs (or step up in terms of capability), so I don't feel like the same issues at the time of the review are present today. My main issue with the tracer was I wanted a little more speed but outside of that it was a really good foil.
An interesting journey you went on! I also tried the ARTv1 999 and 799 and loved them, but also decided it wasn't ultimately for me due to how unstable it became in turbulent water. I went to more medium aspects (f-one phantom-s 840 and seven seas) but have been missing the that frictionless glide and pump feeling of the ART. With f-one being pretty expensive in Norway, I gave Gong a try with the Ypra-Slalom (8.2 AR) and am very happy with those. I also looked at the new ARTs and am similarly disappointed with Axis's focus on big foils for big buys on big boards. I had to shim my stabs to get the excessive lift out, since I'm not their 90 kg "average foiler", and it seems like they have only been going even more in that direction lately, and increasing to even more premium materials to price out the non-team riders. The spitfire was also a "meh" demo, very draggy feeling when you're used to more HA foils, and the sizing generally too big for my taste. Still looking for what's next.
there are always new foils to try, they seem to keep getting better and better with time. The new fireballs are over 1000 pounds in the UK - and not even a full plane foil, so I'm just not onboard with this new exotic materials push.
You should have tested the Armstrong HA V2!! It’s far more impressive in my opinion!!
Can't demo those locally unfortunately
I am very happy with north HA foils..850&750..it would be interesting to make comparison with duotone..nice review..bye
I've ridden the North HA foils - the main difference would be in the low end, the Duotone foils come up easier than the North HA foils and will also fly slower before they stall.
Thank you @Wing-Tips for sharing your experience! I'm currently on north foils and wonder if the SF Range could have covered your needs better, as they feel like a mix between the ma V2 and the ha wings. More gilde than the Ma while having good speed - better low-end than the ha but good glide. But all in all no monoblock design.
I like testing gear but as I have to many different north foils, so I m probably not switching soon. (HM85, c600/650/700, ma850/sf930/sf1080/ha1250/p1800 all with the dedicated back wings).
Best greeting's from Germany
@@yonastestet3376 the SF certainly looks interesting, the local shop had one on order for me to try but it took a really long time to arrive and ultimately I didn't get to ride it. I may come back to it next year when the new demo gear arrives into my local shop.
I think you mean to say "monoblock" foil, not full plane, very few foils are full plane, only Mike's Lab, AFS Silk/Pure. Monoblock means the front wing contains the front part of the fuse, full plane means the front wing contains the entire fuse (and maybe even tail).
I'm surprised you didn't consider Code at all, a lot of people seem to be moving to them.
I also agree that the Axis mast situation is ridiculous and they are just charging 2x the normal price because it happens to be the best mast in the industry so they can get away with it. I'm considering swapping to Sabfoil and the main reason is the reasonably priced Red Devil mast.
I didn't consider Code because their is no local dealer for them. They are also currently a more downwind orientated foil and moving from Axis was to get away from that downwind focus as I generally don't like downwind style foils. Too high AR. Full plane or monoblock - I'm sure people understand what I mean. The key point is I don't want to use bolt on front wings anymore - if possible - or especially for foils meant to deliver better glide. The mast situation with Axis was just annoying, not every mast needs to be capable of handling an ART PRO 1201 and everybody is driving towards better profile masts for speed and glide. I'm never on a front wing larger than 1000cm2 - so the whole Ultra HM stiffness is just not required.
@@Wing-Tips Well Code R are focused on DW, Code S are focused more on prone. The S is a very popular winging wing though. The S is only 9.5 AR, lower than your new Duotone. While you might be riding smaller foils you are still using a 90 cm mast so I'm sure there is a big advantage for HM or UHM carbon there even on small span foils, but the Axis UHM price is crazy.
@@slappysurf it will always help to make the mast stiffer, the question is by how much and whether you actually notice. I don't struggle in the least to control the foils I am using. The mast I am using is the D/Lab High Modulus slim - it's not ultra high modulus. The question on the table there being what do these terms actually mean as I'm sure there is actually some proper quantifiable bend measurement and the HM and Ultra HM we are told of is just the manufacturer dumbing it down. How Duotone HM compares to Axis HM I've no idea and unless someone does well controlled bend tests we won't know. Suffice to say the mast I have is HM and it feels pretty stiff to me - albeit it now another 4cm longer than my previous Axis HM mast and thinner. What I have is not impacting the fun I'm having and that is the real measure of whether it is doing the job I guess.
Wondering if you would take a look at the Aero Free foils for fun. They sit in the middle between the glide and carve. Curious on your opinion of them.
it may be possible to do so, I'll have to have a word with my local shop but I think they may have an Aero Free in their demo fleet that hasn't seen the light of day as yet.
Aero Free are great easy to use foils but also now a 3 year old design. The Whizz and Glide 2 are next level 😊
Pity you didn't stick around for the Fireballs, they are something else!
Something else compared to other axis foils, right?
You've sailed at Meon - these would just be too spanny for our choppy waters. AR 10 to 11 is about as high as you want to go for our conditions (winging).
@@Wing-Tips I'm riding in Scotland, we have big tides so a lot of current and chop. We ride a spot that has over 8 knots of current with very short period waves, boils and whirlpools, the ultimate test of a foils ability to handle turbulent water. The Fireballs (and ART V2's) are just fine, completely different handling to ART Pro's. The difference with the Fireballs is the crazy low end and gentle stall characteristics compared to previous high aspect foils from Axis.
@@andycorbe what you are describing on the fireball is exactly what the glide v2 has....but it is a full plane, cheaper and can be jumped, plus I have full use of an affordable tapered mast.
Interesting opinions but confused by the complaint of art v2 looking like a dagger and then chosing a duotone glide which looks even pointier.
If only i had access to demo all these different foils. Still loving my art v1s for winging only issue for me is tip breach .
The Glide has a flat end to it, which although thin it does not come to a point, the ART v2 comes to a point, if you understand how point loads work you would not want to be falling onto the ART v2.
@@Wing-Tips they both look pretty pointy to me. Wouldn't fancy falling on either of them. I hope you never have to experience the point loading first hand of the duotone. Most foils are gonna bite if you land on them.
@@whenitswindy7034 indeed, I'd prefer not to test myself against either of them. You kind of need to have held both in your hands to appreciate the difference, the ART V2 is very pointy, the duotone thins but the tip itself is squared off rather than coming to a point. So I fancy my chances more with the Duotone but I'll be trying to avoid that at all costs regardless.
Good move. Made the swap from axis to code around a year ago and instantly got way way better with my prone foiling. Axis is just scamming beginners who have no experience. If axis was true to their promise of developing the best gear, they would get rid of their antiquated front connection system. Armstrong is the same. But they are too deep in their hole and they will make more money fooling beginners by keeping their fuse system as is
yeah I wish they would have changed the fuselage right back when they did the ART PRO range - that was when it was needed.
Ahhh , all very interesting Ash, are you 'shimming' any of your Duotone stabilisers or running them as 'stock'?
Currently running stock but I may have a play with shims with time.
You missed out on the Gong YpraS 😅
I started on gong right back at the beginning and had a lot of issues, so they have not been back on the list since.
They now got the V3 tapered mount, a titanium fuse and hm masts.
There are so many foils out there....GONG probably isn't the best but it's affordable in comparison to Levitaz, SABfoil, etc.
I agree they were not that great in the beginning.
But honestly, they are up there with the very best now. My preferred combo is the v3 mast with the v3 fluid stab and YpraSlalom foil.
Great in all sizes, Lightwind XL, medium and strong wind MS. Intuitive, fast while neutral, great glide, amazing carving.
Give it a try!
@mathiasbucher6102 Gongs sales model just isn't for me. No demos, buy everything and just hope you like it. I tried that and ended up owning foils I didn't like and selling them at a loss. I'm sure they have improved and it's good that you have found something you like.
Try the s165 or s145 tail on the Glide 750 & 620 I way prefer it for winging over the h tail 😊
can you describe the difference they create, just so I have an understanding of the change in characteristic over the H tails?
The S165 is the tail from the Whizz - correct?
Better turning and no loss of speed or glide. I use with +0.3 shim.
Even on the h tail I prefer the shim when winging locks it in better in the chop and allows you to push it faster without getting twitchy.
The h tail pumps better for prone, downwind sup and doo downwind wing but for everything else winging I prefer the s tail 😊
@@Wing-Tipsyeah
I really like the s145 on the 750 but on the 620 I prefer the 165 as gives lower stall speed for turns in breaking waves at my 87kg
@@pastyadventures thankyou
Great video and overview. I have just bought a used Axis set with a PNG 910b and a Spitfire 1180 for ~$1200 (including a black fuselage and a 19mm aluminum mast). I was planning to use the first one for stronger winds (above 15kn) and the second one for low wind days. What are your thoughts on this set for winging?
910b is a great first wing for a beginner. The spitfire 1180 is a big foil and quite a bit harder to turn / manage. I tend to think the Spitfire 1180 is for heavier riders, I'm only 80kg and find it too large for me, even in light winds - there is a review on my channel if you want my full thoughts on it.
@@Wing-Tips I am starting to close the first gibes. My previous foil is a Slingshot Hover Glide FPUMP V1 (1750cm2). I was hoping for an upgrade with this new set.
@@fanelliandrea820 ah ok, yeah that Slingshot is a really old design foil, the 910b will be a nice step up
@@Wing-Tips yeah that was my hope. I am in Seattle and wind is very very weak during Summer, so the Spitfire seemed a good option for those days. I will watch your video review!
@fanelliandrea820 well, it will definitely work as a light wind foil 👍
Well said
thankyou, much appreciated
Really interesting and you save us a lot of cash, im thinking about duotone because they have good board too for heavier rider, issues with duotone is the full plane are probably gonna get more expensive than bolt. I’m riding fone but it over expensive i think. Duotone Whizz vs fone sk8 what are you though ?
if you are riding mushy wind driven waves then the Whizz, if you are riding bigger, faster waves with more power to them then the SK8 works well for those.
@@Wing-Tipsare they sharing the same maniability , do you think i wont be loosing going from sk8 to whizz ? I’m using the sk8 950 in free fly too with the wing. I only plan to stay one brand. I’m using a 7 seas 1400 as my wing foil light foil and for small wave in surf foil and my sk8 950 as stronger wind wing foil and bigger wave surf foil. What 2 foil quiver could replace that from duotone ? Thanks in advance.🫡
@@youdigsurf you could use a Glide 900 and a Whizz 850. F-One have a lot of really good foils though, so I don't feel like there is the same drivers to change as I had from Axis. There is the price consideration though, F-One foils are quite expensive.
You didn't try Duotones Carve yet, which most people here prefer over the Glide
I will try it in time, I'm expecting it may get an update in spring.
@Wing-Tips Yes, they are already testing the 3.0 😉
@@markusrapke7390 will be interesting to see what direction they go, my money is on it looking a little more glide shaped
Are you or have you been supported in any way by Duotone ? I didnt catch you saying that so i thought id ask , they look nice
.... or sponsored to get these more cheaply by any entity
@CarkeekW I'm sponsored by my own wallet and a very understanding wife...does that count?
@Wing-Tips cheers , it's good info to have in these types of videos , I feel for your wallet.
@Wing-Tips 😂😂..Very understanding wife .. please do NOT start riding a motorcycle yet..😂😂😂😅
What issues did you have with the axis spitfires?
Harder to get on foil than an similar sized HPS, slower than HPS in my view and a less involving ride. On plus side, turn well on large waves, can breach tips without ventilating. Just not enough of an upgrade from HPS to justify the outlay for me. The 840 came close to me buying it, but it just needed too perfect conditions for my local spot to work better than an HPS.
Thanks for a very interesting review. I made a very similar journey... but no stock issue with North when I changed from Axis, so used them for a few months 🙃
I then demoed an FOne Eagle, and afterwards had no choice of changing brands again 😂
I now also got an Eagle X700 and never experienced anything like it in terms of speed and glide. It's quickly become my favourite foil!
Nice to see that Duotone seems to offer a similar experience .
As you say, there are several brands out there worth considering and Axis seems to be harnstrung by their frontwing-fuse connection & high price.
Hard for me to fathom being able to demo multiple foils for dozens of hours.
you need a really good local shop that run a demo fleet - it makes the decisions process way easier
You talked about the Art V2 but didn’t try it because it looked like a dagger? You really missed out because it sounds like just what you were after in terms of performance. To compare latest Duotone foils with original Arts which were a breakthrough in high aspect foils three seasons ago is really unfair. For a mast you could have considered One Ocean UHM mast for about 800 pounds and got an unbelievable mast 100% Axis compatible. And the fireball? Come on man. Apples with Apples please.
That was only part of the reason - the main reason was they are all labelled "do not jump", which means no warranty if you jump and they break. Plus they are significantly over priced for a bolt on foil. I moved because of pricing due to the need to use UHM - which is a fuselage design issue and I wanted to move to full planes not bolt on foils. No tapered mast except for 3000 bucks version, lack of focus on winging - the reasons are numerous. The video is a journey of trying things and I was very explicit as to what I wanted - the ART v2 and fireball fail the criteria.