I think a high power level would be how much fast mana and how many tutors you run because you're increasing tempo and reducing variability of your deck. If you run fast mana you can probably skip 2 turns on average and with tutors you can essentially find your win con pretty consistently. Most decks feel powerful because they are synergistic but that just means you built your deck well and most people at LGS's will have a decent decent deck, then all it comes down to is RNG
Clash is not the level just under CEDH, but I would say it is higher than the average LGS game. Reasons include: 1. Better (maybe more expensive) cards, particularly staples. 2. Cohesive game plans and carefully designed packages (like Richard's ramp). I would be comfortable saying Clash is a 7, if we assume "average" is not 7, but is 5 or 6. Otherwise Clash is an 8 and Richard's resolution is actually to play a 9.
Yeah, I play my 5 color phyrexian deck all the time at my LGS, and it is kind of bad, like playing vorinclex monstrous raider and having no counter synergy. But it does okay. But I think if I tried it in most clash games, I think most of the time someone would win before I could really start doing my thing.
I agree. What I think a perfect example of 8 is a Lathril elfball backed by Staff of Domination combo, especially with tutors. Turn 4/5 win but easily folds to any type of removal and it's limited by colors (no white or blue). I saw a stat that says most casual commander games in 2024 end turn 8 to 10. If we take that as average (Power Level 6), then PL 7 should end turn 6-7. I think most non-theme Commander Clash games are in that range.
I feel clash is lower power level than my local meta (3 LGSs I play at). Very similar decks, only I regularly see cards on their house ban list. Biggest difference is Clash are better deck builders and better players than my local LGSs
The number system is useless so I’m not gonna use it. You’re 100% significantly above average in power level compared to ‘average commander pods’. The only things stopping you from looking like a ‘true’ high power pod is your own banlist, the challenges you choose to build against, and free counter magic. Everyone except Tomer plays several $40 cards a deck every single game, you play very interactive games with early and multiple boardwipes, and you all play very spikey. Low to medium power casual players *often don’t even run Rift, let alone Farewell.
The gap between Commander Clash and CEDH is much wider than the gap between Commander Clash and what you call "low and medium power" casual. If CEDH lists are a 10 and they're playing at a 7, then those low/medium power casual games are at a 5 or 6. Why? Because it's not about the inclusion of a few high-power cards like Rift/Farewell. The house banlist + challenges make *most* Commander Clash decks much worse compared to the potential of the format and the freedom that casual players have
Playing AoE, costly cards and good cards don't make you high power, mainly because the first and third arguments are available to everybody. You're right that the difference lies in the themes, banlist and other "dumb" ideas they are currently running after. The ratio between true power and theme is what pushes you into high power or keeps you casual, depending on the scale. Stating that the number of interactions and the speed AoEs go out push you toward high power is wrong. Control is not high power, casual is not not having answers. The philosophy of the format is way deeper than this. Crim said it at the beginning: you may hate control but it's not a 9.
Kitchen table is not the normal casual 7 or even 5, every LGS I go to I see Rift, Farewell, One Ring, and all the players seem to believe that's pretty typical.
Seth: "what could we possibly do to power up our decks to be higher power casual?" Richard 2 weeks ago: "Mana rocks are bad and so is efficient single target removal." Seth: "he's cooking" 😂
Richard talking about getting everyone to do his bidding without them knowing is so funny. Because everyone is so aware Richard is doing it but keep letting him do it
@@muddlewait8844 Him being the boss has nothing to do with it honestly, I think it's really dishonest to think he gets away with stuff because they work for Goldfish
@@DylanHunter64idk if it’s dishonest to think that, possibly more-so misguided. We have no idea about the internal politics of Richard being their boss, and can only grasp at why Richard ends up getting away with what he does. I personally would be less offended by the insinuation that I give deference to my boss in games than that I was just gullible and naive and someone played me like a fiddle every game.
@@Jlizard27 I wouldn't, that would compromise the integrity of the all of their games. What's a far more accurate assessment of why Richard always gets away with it is simple: -Phil almost always by far has the scariest/value packed deck that needs to be dealt with -Tomer's decks are usually very synergistic and powerful and are notorious for running out the 'half of a combo piece' -Crim's decks are always obnoxious af and draw lots of agro. -Seth decks are always janky and stumbling or just ramping so he naturally gravitates towards Richard against the other problem decks that are doing their thing. Richard is always under the radar and sure, they could kill them first every time if they wanted but it would be at the cost of auto losing the game to whatever nonsense Phil is always doing.
I would like it if you guys can make a few episodes where each of you bring what you think is a 6/7/8 and see what happens and what you think of each others decks.
High power casual is the red-headed stepchild of EDH because almost no one plays it. The common misconception is that it's casual EDH just with more staples and more powerful cards but that's not what defines those games. I would say Commander Clash doesn't fall into that category even with the house bans because the games are just too long. Higher power games usually last only 7-8 turns on average compared to CC's 10+ turn games, combo finishes are much more frequent, and the early turns are generally more impactful. All those affect the kind of cards you can and can't play effectively. For example, the impact of fogs decreases because more games are decided outside of combat damage, cards like Open the Way for six or hard-casting Sea-Gate Restoration are just too slow, cheap interaction like Swords to Plowshares becomes stronger because you need to interact with combo pieces, and the downside to EtB tapped lands is more pronounced. I would say the primary difference is the presence of a late game. Commander is generally viewed as various flavors of midrange where the general goal of the game isn't so much to assemble a win condition but just out value the opponent with your deck's theme. Because of that there is no true late game and most of the game is spent continuously ramping, drawing cards, and trying to do your decks "thing". High power casual decks are built around meeting specific late game conditions that win you the game. This allows decks to run more efficiently as instead of trying to outvalue your opponent you're trying to meet specific win conditions. For example, a card like Field of the Dead is generally considered strong in lower power casual because it's a land that makes other creatures for free. However, In higher power casual very few decks can utilize the zombie tokens as part of an effective late game and even when the land is finally online the game is almost over.
Krenko and Lathril can even go faster (turn 5) but I'd still call them casual. And non of the commander clash games I've seen looked anywhere near that.
I really enjoyed budget week would love to see more of it! The normal episode themes are great but it is nice seeing decks without all the same usual suspects every week. Especially when it highlights cards I otherwise have never seen before!
i like how Crim’s signatures are simultaneously the grixis player that misses his land drops and him saying “i don’t have anything, my hand is all lands”
I think he's diferentiating the style of politics of making deals and directly asking what you want and the type of deflecting threat assessment and hiding information. I think he sees the later the same as playing strategically in 1v1 by bluffing spells and stuff. Just in multiplayer there's multiple people making different threat assessments. I see both as politic-ing, but i think the later feels a bit more natural, and poeple can do whatever they want, even outplay you by reading into it as opposed to commiting to a bad play because they made a deal.
Over Thanksgiving I had a friend try to go through my trade stock for the first time in about 15 years and was reminded it should be organized in some other way than “piles for all the decks I’m thinking of building eventually.”
At my LGS no one plays CEDH, but there are a handful of people who have decks that will combo off on turn 3. Anje madness, Heliod Wheel, etc. No one is running the cards you guys run here. You are in high powered casual, even if you don't necessarily build the decks to it. It's like you guys are playing pioneer, but with standard decks - you haven't adjusted the deck synergy, but you've added in cards that inherently increase the power, mostly through your card raw and land packages
17:45 everyone please pay attention to seths face. This is the reaction I have every time Crim thinks he is clever, and he needs to curb his enthusiasm. XD
im a p big fan of crim cuz he plays a great villain but i think his cyniscm is sometimes be a lil rude, ignoring themes included. Alll this to say thanks that was the funniest thing ive ever seen, watched 6 times. thanks for pointing it out. Good on richard for creating an environment that fosters these genuine reactions
This was a lot of fun, and thought-provoking. Yay for more budget decks! I find that to be more challenging in some ways - figuring out how to use all the cards, not just the expensive bombs (that many of us never pull, or cannot afford - proxy as desired). And be positive about those cards while playing them 😊 Our resolution has been to organize our cards too, and to try new things. For Christmas I built my kids custom decks, around what they like or want to do (one is called Don't Touch Me, and I'll Hug You!). My son gave me proxies of Shroofus, and Thurid, and the My Little Ponies cards, so I can build green Krenko (Krenko is his favorite), and horses/pegasi/unicorns. Whee! Happy New Year!🎉🎉🎉
I always consider an 8 as stuff that is just below fringe cedh. So turn 5 wins or insurmountable advantage. Y'all are probably an actual 7 and most casual decks are a 5 or 6
I agree. Outside of numbers, I'd say the CC crew sits just below 'high power'. They have lots it powerful staples in every one of their decks, but their house bans & deckbuilding restrictions (incl playing for content) holds them back. The issue in my eyes is more that the EDH community at large seems to think that "a 7" is "an average casual deck", when in reality a 5-6 is more like the average.
High Power Casual (HPC): 1. Strong commanders that are either part of a combo/wincon or gain strong value, that typically need to be answered. Examples: Niv Mizzet/Curiosity, Korvold, Winota, Yuriko, or anything in Simic. They are scary because they can threaten a win as part of a combo or can gain so much value that you must kill-on-site. 2. Fast mana. Before all my HPC decks played Crypt, Vault, J-Lotus, Ancient Tomb, even if it was to ramp into casual wincons. I am using this fast mana to speed up my casual plays. 3. Efficient wincons, which is usually combo but doesn’t have to be. I tend to prefer to double spell and to leave interaction open because the higher power you go, each deck can have powerful plays even if it’s not a combo. If it’s a combo, you better have left mana open on your turn. A lot of HPC strategies may be 3-card combos rather than Thoracle or a combo with the commander. And if they’re not a combo deck, say you’re an aggro Voltron deck, you should be able to kill one player on T4. 4. Strong/Efficient Interaction and counterspells are more prevalent, including free interaction (FoW or FoN) to address the stronger, more powerful game-ending plays. This means my curve has decreased in order to not get blown out by Blue. You expect much more interaction because everyone’s plays in HPC may be game-winning if you don’t leave open interaction or counter spell. This is why Blue moves up in power the higher power level you go up. Board wipes are less common because they are 4 mana so you’ll get blown out by a counter spell and wasted your whole turn. In addition, they’re not common because you need instant speed interaction or you won’t have the answer and will just die on an opponent’s turn. 5. Quality of cards are stronger. I expect all the staples in HPC: Jeskas’s Will and Breach in red; Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift in blue, Urborg and Cabal Coffers in black, Trouble in Pairs, Dranith Magistrate, and T-Pro in white, etc. There is no chaff in these lists because everyone is playing 12-14 pieces of 2 mana ramp or rocks and people understand the Curve. 6. Example: HPC is essentially best-in-class cards, efficient interaction, fast mana, and optimized wincons. As an example of HPC, I had a Voltron deck which is clearly a casual strategy, but prior to the recent ban, it played Lotus, Crypt, Vault, Ancient Tomb, Mox Opal, ramped out the commander T 1 or 2, and immediately spammed equipment to kill one player by Voltron damage by T4. It had 14 two-mana rocks, not even counting the fast mana, and will typically kill one player by T4 while holding up free spells, such as Flawless Maneuver, Flare of Fortitude, T-Pro, etc. It required removal or interaction on specific turns or otherwise it’s too late because all the equipment provided protection. ,
33:29 I’m sorry but this is what’s wrong with the podcast. You have Richard speaking, tomar on the phone looking down, crim AS ALWAYS looking to another screen probably watching some anime or texting via desktop.. Seth is the lone star of the show.. always engaged, always on in. Sometimes when Seth stops speaking there’s a long silence because people aren’t even paying attention and realize he stopped talking late.. without Seth, this podcast would go down in flames
I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s exactly what Crim’s doing lol. He is the poster child of the stereotypical zoomer mindset. Tomer though…I’d like to think he wouldn’t be that short-spanned, but who knows. Maybe he’s looking at stuff related to the podcast. Or maybe not, who knows.
I'd say the Clash has always played around the Casual Level 6-7 due to having a in-house banlist for content. The fact that cards like Sol Ring, Rhystic Study, and Smothering Tithe are discouraged does warp how some decks can operate compared to having those staples in because of how much of an impact those cards can have.
Spot on. They sometimes look higher tier because they are all good players with strong understandings of card interactions. They tend to play weak and hamstrung decks on clash that are 6-7 in power.
I know Tomer lives 50% of the year in France and the other half in Canada but i swear to god ive never see him with the same background twice in a row :D
Tomer has more of a grasp where 8-power decks are. Clash decks are more like 6.5-power with a handicap banned list and built for content. But yeah, an 8 should be a 2-punch Gwenna dropping green seven drops on turn 3, or Yoshi-Rograkh clearing a table on turn 5 or 6 in a single sweep, or even Wolverine alpha striking a full table. They're powerful, optimized, but can't hang with the interaction and stacks of powers 9-10 which are bordering on solved formats.
I've had the same situation as Crim when talking about budget decks. I build a $35 ninja deck and when Duskmourn came out I wanted to add the new Kaito, Bane of Nightmares to the deck and my wife pulled the textured foil version and I haven't added it because it feels dumb to add a card to the deck that costs twice as much as the rest of the deck. But at the same time it also feels dumb to buy a normal copy when we have one already. On that same note, she also pulled the fracture foil Kaito, Cunning Infiltrator from Foundations. I guess the world is telling me to drop the $35 deck and build a blinged out Ninja deck
Seth: "I think the whole number system is bonked and we don't know what we're talking about." Nailed it. Every commander player everywhere thinks they are 7 regardless of the actual cards in deck.
I would also point out that the politicking and general style of clash would not play out the same if all their decks were optimized to win by turn 4-5. It wouldn’t make as entertaining of content.
My thoughts on combos: fine back up plans or alt wincons that fit a deck's theme. Thats how I justify and use combos in casual commander. If I want the deck to be higher than a 7 I'd add tutors to that deck and make the deck focus a little more towards playing those combos.
Richard: I play what could be considered ‘level 8’ pretty often with my personal playgroup that has some rapport with other LGS regulars in our area and for that we often don’t need to pubstomp on casual 7s. On Tomer’s point and because I too am on a budget, the decks that “can hang” are really what you want to build- we are down do 31 lands+ 4 MDFCS, another 15-18 mana sources, a ton of advantage, tons of removal and interaction (manglehorn counts tho) and then really just a 15-20 card core. The notable commanders in our group are Nekusar, Giada, Ur-Dragon, Krenko (mob boss), Master (fallout), Nath, Animar, Ghyrson Starn, Goreclaw, Jacob Hauken, Sram, and a few other oldies, goodies, and dark horses.
Commander clash varies between 6.5-8, Depending on the weekly challalenhe etc. You guys houseman ban format staples like Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe, so you'd need to play those to get the true 8/9 experience. Not saying you SHOULD, but that's what would need to happen to bring the show to a consistent 8
In my experience, the average LGS casual game has a mix of fun yet focused decks and precons (upgraded, and not). So 4s, 5s, and 6s are the norm, not 7s. Hence clash would be the 6.5-7.5 range depending on episode.
My resolution for this year is that I want to host a box brawl or draft. Just get a booster box and play sealed with my Commander group. It sounds fun!
This is the matrix that I have always used when building my own decks. Tier 5 Decks probably have a broad strategy in mind; most are somewhat generalist, often employing a wide array "goodstuff" cards, like draw spells, board wipes, etc., to supplement their primary goal. Mana Bases and card choices are better, but often still inefficient, due to budget or prioritizing personal favorites over strategic choices. Tier 6 Decks have a definite strategy in mind, or multiple that synergize well to enable a solid gameplan. Spell choices are more focused, but with mixed levels of efficiency. Lands entering untapped are prioritized. Battlecruiser decks are uncommon. Most decks contain at least one hard wincon, usually a combo. Decks often have a modest budget. Tier 7 Decks are largely refined down to just the best cards for their strategy. Perfect / nearly-perfect land bases, multiple cheap tutors, highly efficient ramp, draw, etc. Most decks become less generalist as they focus more heavily on their primary strategy. Expect to see lots of powerful staples. Higher-budget decks are fairly common. Tier 8 Decks have a specific, consistent, gameplan, often following defined lines of play. Every card enables, supports, or protects the deck's primary strategy. Lots of low-cost ramp & tight Curves means casting multiple spells a turn can be expected as early as Turn 1. Many decks, but not all, are high-budget to budgetless.
I also think it is important to note that "higher power level" does not necessarily mean decks are mean (Humilty, Blood Moon, etc.) Those cards may be good, but so are many casual staples. If casual players can play draw and ramp staples, they can play interactive staples too. People just don't because whining is annoying.
Seth is right, Combo for most people is 2 or 3 card combos that are fairly easy to assemble or can only be interacted on the stack. Honestly, anything beyond that is more of an engine that went into overdrive
I like that way of putting it, "engine that went into overdrive". Going to steal that going forward when describing any combination of 4+ cards in my deck that would go infinite.
Clash meta killed blue for no reason. In the wild the “mana rocks die to farewell” argument doesn’t hold up when the blue guy with 15 rocks counters your farewell.
I would say the group is typically playing at a high 7 to low 8. You have solid concise plans, a good package of cards to get you there, ramp, draw, maybe even some tutors, etc. I would say from what I've seen if you goldfished your decks, you could reliably have some sort of a win con out between turns 6-8 with some ways to protect it. That to me puts you close to a solid 8. It's once you start adding maybe some lighter combos, or tutors for those combos that you push into high 8 or even low 9.
the biggest thing that makes commander clash a 7 rather than an 8 is the speed of play - you assume sweepers are coming, you assume you’ll have time for land ramp to matter, you assume you won’t lose because you don’t have swords up. not so in power level 8 - you should expect wins from hand from turn 5ish onward and you will need to either interact with them or be winning yourself! that’s why mana rocks are good, even if they get farewelled- you have the mana advantage on the most important turns of the game, that being from turns 2 to 6. same with single target removal - it’s mana efficient when all you need is to stop a win attempt long enough to pull off yours.
Power level 8 includes cEDH strategies WITHOUT all of the fast mana / best card support. And it includes NON-cEDH strategies WITH all of the fast mana / best card support. So, it’s Niv-Mizzet Parun WITHOUT Dockside, Jeweled Lotus, etc. (the recent bans REMOVED Niv from competitive viability). And it’s Ur-Dragon with ALL of the fast mana so you can ramp to dragons FAST. Neither of these strategies can sit at a cEDH table, but both wipe the floor with power level 7s.
Your custom Banlist makes you a 6.. you are tuned within self prescribed limitations. The difference between casual and high power, are combos and interaction.
Richard. I would go back and look at the birds deck you built for Las Vegas 2022 for ideas of “powerful” things to put into your deck . I played against you in two different pods, and that deck kicked butt! If I recall when we spoke at the end of the event you had mentioned that you had zero losses that whole weekend.
i started playing a couple years ago and i think that combo is super fun even in casual. i think the way to make it feel fun and fair is 1) more then 2 cards 2) dont tutor for the peices
You guys are DEFINITELY higher power than my pod. You play tons of expensive staples and optimized manabases, which is already above most casual players. You may make decks to themes but you go all out with really strong cards to get as much power and consistency out of the theme as possible. You can also put combos in decks that aren't meant to win through combos. You don't have to dedicate your entire deck to it, I find combo wins to be the most fun when my draws happen to put me into an infinite board state.
Quick make a list so we can bring it up next year. So Seth- Less politicking by Politicking more & Grixy baby Richard- Certified Power Level 8 player Tomer- Become more Crim Like and enjoy the Chaos on a budget Crim- Two cards go BRRRRRRR, words go sushhhh. For real though…been watching for years at this point your ever evolving meta and genuine awesome chemistry between you guys is so enjoyable. Really grateful for the show. Like every week this awesome content happens with great editing, and always interesting games. The entire Goldfish crew rocks and your website is so useful. My resolution is to engage with the videos better.
29:51 Equating the ability to deal with combos such as godo helm, kiki twin, and niv curiosity to "well i didnt have free counter magic so i guess we're dead"is a crazy take to me. They are largely telegraphed play patterns and any form of creature removal or in all 3 cases artifact removal can answer them. Tomer's take was the most sane
I think 1-200$ budget is probably the best range for budget decks because it lets you get some big hay makers that allow you to have multiple wincons, without it just being all of the best stuff around.
20:00 Tomer!! If you're in the market for a spellslinging, control-y, combo-y deck that's also derpy, durdley, and weird, I have a deck for you! The deck is Kairi, The Swirling Sky, and the whole gist is to clone Kairi with a whole bunch of Quasiduplicate effects to get his death trigger, milling yourself out and buying back both the clone spell and whatever else you need. Its a grindy deck that lends itself really well towards control since Kairi can get back all manner of counterspells, removal spells, and board wipes, often at instant speed, and he HAS A BOARD-WIPE AS THE OTHER MODE. Plus, you get to run Richard's blue ramp to appease him! It's one of my all-time favorite brews, though I have to be careful not to pull it out at too-casual of tables.
One time I went to an LGS, and over 2 or 3 turns I put together the Sanguine Bond/ Exquisite Blood combo, it was like turn 10, I played Exquisite Blood, and passed I couldn't even do anything to actually trigger it myself that turn, I said here you go "deal with it before my turn", but after passing the next guy triggered the combo for me, and one of the guys got mad I won on like turn 10, after assembling a 10 mana combo that took me multiple turns to actually even fully assemble. So I think people are talking about like expensive or like 4 card combos when they say they hate combos... XD
Gang I hate to say it but you're decks are high powered, you just all pull your punches! Tomer even mentioned the episode where Seth did the Phage combo to win--in that ep the editor put in a note that said "Yes, Seth saw he had this combo available far earlier than he pulled it off. He just wanted the game to continue." I know it's for content and that's chill, but there's your answer
I hate making suggestions, as you lot have come up with some amazing themes in the past. But, I would love to see decks built around famous non-EDH decks from Magic’s history. Take ideas like Caw Blade, Affinity, Simic Food, 8 Rack, Grixis Delver, etc., and build an entire EDH deck as true to the original deck concept as you can. Some of my favorite commander decks were/are built around my time playing other constructed formats. So this is something I think you brewers could do some fun things with!
My 2025 Commander resolution is to normalize the card Razia’s Purification. FACT: it is simultaneously more color restrictive and less powerful than Farewell, which everyone accepts (much harder to make Razia’s one-sided, doesn’t exile). FACT: it’s one of vanishingly few clean answers to greedy land ramp. OPINION (but also kinda factual): it’s got the sickest board wipe art in the OG foil except for possibly a foil Planar Chaos Damnation
Brew Clue: A game of Commander where your commander is kept hidden and you can either win by winning normally or guessing correctly all 3 of your opponents hidden commanders. Would have to be rules like you can only guess on your own turn, you take damage for every turn cycle you dont play a land or cast a spell, if you guess incorrectly you take damage, and if you guess correctly players have until your next turn to try and kill you. Would have to be a 5th person not playing who knows the commanders, and each player would have to either go into this blind or make sure the 99 actually match the commander
I love playing combo decks because I build layered combos that are not 1 card + commander. And are usually 3+ cards. Like my human deck plays katilda+village bell ringer +kogla the titan ape. This, with enough humans, is infinite mana and infinite +1/1 counters on the team. But it takes work to get there, is a lot of mana. And is actually fun to pull off
I agree with Tomer. Clash's tendency to freak out is really annoying. Jokes are fun, but then you sometimes back it up with actions and I'm not a fan of that.
Non-infinite combat is the most universally interactive space in the game! Focusing on it as your win-condition makes it more likely youll have a tug of war game where it feels like different styles of wizards are duking it out with their minions. Infinite combos tend to feel like someone broke the game rules. Lots of early combos were literally design oversight and now theyre just part of the game's identity.
The best way to kill Richard stratagems is with direct damage triggers. Aristrocrats would be best, since they have a million separate triggers, none that are individually worth fogging and they don’t really mind a boardwipe or two. I am also a proponent of group slug, wheel decks, burn or spellslinger. All of these are at least partially immune to Richard shenanigans, and are able to press life totals throughout the game.
As someone that plays a lot of 8 style games Richard is correct in assuming that its mostly the same vibe as lower tier commander. You might run more spot removal over board wipes because of the lethality increase from higher tier Commanders but it's really just more optimized and generally the player base is more experienced so you worry much less about feel bads and play meaner cards
With all the politics talk I would recommend those with a politic resolution to follow a fight the table policy which is to be honest in what your deck is does, can do and when your opponents should fear you. So that when you say “I’m not a threat”your opponents actually will actually believe you and you don’t get to a point where you get a win from deception that ends up feeling scummy
This is how I’ve always thought about power levels or brackets. Bracket one power lv 10 CEDH. Best staples all the fast mana best commanders best strategies. Object is to win. Bracket 2 power levels 8-9. Any commander ANY strategy any staples in any number. Fast mana. Do what ever in the most powerful way possible. Strategies that aren’t quite good enough for C but still frowned on in casual. Take all the turns blow up all the lands use fast mana free interaction. Bracket 3 power level 7. Good/okay commanders, up graded pre-cons. Friendly strategies. Minimal to almost no staples. Lots of synergy in your strategy/theme to do things like draw cards. Without having to play rhystic study. Or playing study as the one of the few hyper staples in your deck. If you are gonna struggle to draw cards. No fast mana. Bracket 4 power level 6 or less. pre-cons barely upgraded pre-cons or 99 cards you had laying around. Super jank themes no hyper staples. This is the road map my various play groups started following.
The discussion about whether to attack into Richard's spirited companion is really asking about whether the rest of the crew thinks they can can go net 2+ positive on card value, which is super greedy! Swinging 4 damage into spirited companion is still net positive because you don't lose the creature. Letting the board get bigger by not swinging increases the need for a board wipe, which will net you negative on card advantage when you get wrathed. The crackback is another story but you still have to ask yourself, how bad will it really be?
I already think that if you're running smothering tithe, and rhystic study, and cyclonic rift, and trubble in pairs... it's a difficult to say with a straight face that your deck is completely casual.
THANK YOU SO MUCH SETH. Local games have gotten infinitely smoother when everyone is just making decisions for themselves. Cant wait to see less politicking this year
The biggest difference between clash and power level 8 is the lack of combos. In 8, nearly every deck can kill you with a combo or over-the-top synergy by t5-7 if you don't have some form of interaction.
58:47 We're aware that Tomer's plants have gone to a farm upstate, but the true question is... *WHERE ARE OUR SLEEPING CORGI'S CRIM!?!?!!?* The true *SHOW PROOF WITH A NEWSPAPER!!!*
The fact that everyone in the comments is throwing out wildly different power level for clash just shows how useless the power levels even are
Because going by feeling doesn't work. With that in mind i hope there is news on the brackets this year 😅
I think a high power level would be how much fast mana and how many tutors you run because you're increasing tempo and reducing variability of your deck. If you run fast mana you can probably skip 2 turns on average and with tutors you can essentially find your win con pretty consistently. Most decks feel powerful because they are synergistic but that just means you built your deck well and most people at LGS's will have a decent decent deck, then all it comes down to is RNG
Crim keeps mentioning his black panther deck, would be cool for clash if everyone brought their favorite paper deck from 2024 for the new year!
Seconded
Yes 👏🏻
Clash is not the level just under CEDH, but I would say it is higher than the average LGS game. Reasons include:
1. Better (maybe more expensive) cards, particularly staples.
2. Cohesive game plans and carefully designed packages (like Richard's ramp).
I would be comfortable saying Clash is a 7, if we assume "average" is not 7, but is 5 or 6. Otherwise Clash is an 8 and Richard's resolution is actually to play a 9.
Clash is miles away from being anywhere close to an 8.
Yeah, I play my 5 color phyrexian deck all the time at my LGS, and it is kind of bad, like playing vorinclex monstrous raider and having no counter synergy. But it does okay. But I think if I tried it in most clash games, I think most of the time someone would win before I could really start doing my thing.
I agree. What I think a perfect example of 8 is a Lathril elfball backed by Staff of Domination combo, especially with tutors. Turn 4/5 win but easily folds to any type of removal and it's limited by colors (no white or blue). I saw a stat that says most casual commander games in 2024 end turn 8 to 10. If we take that as average (Power Level 6), then PL 7 should end turn 6-7. I think most non-theme Commander Clash games are in that range.
I feel clash is lower power level than my local meta (3 LGSs I play at). Very similar decks, only I regularly see cards on their house ban list. Biggest difference is Clash are better deck builders and better players than my local LGSs
On a 10 point scale, 5.5 would be average.
The number system is useless so I’m not gonna use it. You’re 100% significantly above average in power level compared to ‘average commander pods’. The only things stopping you from looking like a ‘true’ high power pod is your own banlist, the challenges you choose to build against, and free counter magic. Everyone except Tomer plays several $40 cards a deck every single game, you play very interactive games with early and multiple boardwipes, and you all play very spikey. Low to medium power casual players *often don’t even run Rift, let alone Farewell.
The gap between Commander Clash and CEDH is much wider than the gap between Commander Clash and what you call "low and medium power" casual. If CEDH lists are a 10 and they're playing at a 7, then those low/medium power casual games are at a 5 or 6. Why? Because it's not about the inclusion of a few high-power cards like Rift/Farewell. The house banlist + challenges make *most* Commander Clash decks much worse compared to the potential of the format and the freedom that casual players have
Bro, I play with a lot of seriously casual people, and cyclone rift is a very common card to see.
Playing AoE, costly cards and good cards don't make you high power, mainly because the first and third arguments are available to everybody.
You're right that the difference lies in the themes, banlist and other "dumb" ideas they are currently running after. The ratio between true power and theme is what pushes you into high power or keeps you casual, depending on the scale.
Stating that the number of interactions and the speed AoEs go out push you toward high power is wrong. Control is not high power, casual is not not having answers. The philosophy of the format is way deeper than this.
Crim said it at the beginning: you may hate control but it's not a 9.
Kitchen table is not the normal casual 7 or even 5, every LGS I go to I see Rift, Farewell, One Ring, and all the players seem to believe that's pretty typical.
Nah Commander Clash without the weird deckbuilding restrictions are a Spelltable 7.
Seth: "what could we possibly do to power up our decks to be higher power casual?"
Richard 2 weeks ago: "Mana rocks are bad and so is efficient single target removal."
Seth: "he's cooking"
😂
I would like to see more personal decks. From your own collection.
Richard talking about getting everyone to do his bidding without them knowing is so funny. Because everyone is so aware Richard is doing it but keep letting him do it
Richard’s boss privileges are obvious, but as one more political factor to account for, they kind of keep things interesting.
@@muddlewait8844 Him being the boss has nothing to do with it honestly, I think it's really dishonest to think he gets away with stuff because they work for Goldfish
@@DylanHunter64idk if it’s dishonest to think that, possibly more-so misguided. We have no idea about the internal politics of Richard being their boss, and can only grasp at why Richard ends up getting away with what he does. I personally would be less offended by the insinuation that I give deference to my boss in games than that I was just gullible and naive and someone played me like a fiddle every game.
@@Jlizard27 I wouldn't, that would compromise the integrity of the all of their games. What's a far more accurate assessment of why Richard always gets away with it is simple:
-Phil almost always by far has the scariest/value packed deck that needs to be dealt with
-Tomer's decks are usually very synergistic and powerful and are notorious for running out the 'half of a combo piece'
-Crim's decks are always obnoxious af and draw lots of agro.
-Seth decks are always janky and stumbling or just ramping so he naturally gravitates towards Richard against the other problem decks that are doing their thing.
Richard is always under the radar and sure, they could kill them first every time if they wanted but it would be at the cost of auto losing the game to whatever nonsense Phil is always doing.
@@DylanHunter64this is actually very accurate lol
Richard’s new year resolution: play more dowsing device and ojer axonil as ramp before he gets farewell’d
good choice, i think
Ojer Simulacrum 😂
I would like it if you guys can make a few episodes where each of you bring what you think is a 6/7/8 and see what happens and what you think of each others decks.
That sleep thing is an absolute truth. We should all do the same.
High power casual is the red-headed stepchild of EDH because almost no one plays it. The common misconception is that it's casual EDH just with more staples and more powerful cards but that's not what defines those games. I would say Commander Clash doesn't fall into that category even with the house bans because the games are just too long. Higher power games usually last only 7-8 turns on average compared to CC's 10+ turn games, combo finishes are much more frequent, and the early turns are generally more impactful. All those affect the kind of cards you can and can't play effectively. For example, the impact of fogs decreases because more games are decided outside of combat damage, cards like Open the Way for six or hard-casting Sea-Gate Restoration are just too slow, cheap interaction like Swords to Plowshares becomes stronger because you need to interact with combo pieces, and the downside to EtB tapped lands is more pronounced.
I would say the primary difference is the presence of a late game. Commander is generally viewed as various flavors of midrange where the general goal of the game isn't so much to assemble a win condition but just out value the opponent with your deck's theme. Because of that there is no true late game and most of the game is spent continuously ramping, drawing cards, and trying to do your decks "thing". High power casual decks are built around meeting specific late game conditions that win you the game. This allows decks to run more efficiently as instead of trying to outvalue your opponent you're trying to meet specific win conditions. For example, a card like Field of the Dead is generally considered strong in lower power casual because it's a land that makes other creatures for free. However, In higher power casual very few decks can utilize the zombie tokens as part of an effective late game and even when the land is finally online the game is almost over.
Very well said!
Krenko and Lathril can even go faster (turn 5) but I'd still call them casual. And non of the commander clash games I've seen looked anywhere near that.
Hearing a casual pod talk about combo is hilarious, tomer saying craferhoof killed me😂
I really enjoyed budget week would love to see more of it! The normal episode themes are great but it is nice seeing decks without all the same usual suspects every week. Especially when it highlights cards I otherwise have never seen before!
i like how Crim’s signatures are simultaneously the grixis player that misses his land drops
and him saying “i don’t have anything, my hand is all lands”
Love listening to you guys while im at work! Hope you all have a wonderful 2025! 🎉
Richard "I hate politics", also him every game "oh were just dead, oh hes gonna get us, do you just win?"
He says a lot of that sarcastically to be fair
@lobo-xs6kd but every single time he says it sarcastic or not its influence
Yup he's a content creator. He doesn't do that in person
@@zweis okay thanks for the info! I havent played with any of them ever so im glad its just for content
I think he's diferentiating the style of politics of making deals and directly asking what you want and the type of deflecting threat assessment and hiding information. I think he sees the later the same as playing strategically in 1v1 by bluffing spells and stuff. Just in multiplayer there's multiple people making different threat assessments. I see both as politic-ing, but i think the later feels a bit more natural, and poeple can do whatever they want, even outplay you by reading into it as opposed to commiting to a bad play because they made a deal.
I'm so glad to hear richard wants more budget. I always love to see budget decks whenever possible
I hope to organise my collection this year. Ive been editing my decks and there are just cards everywhere.
Same I began this working towards this goal
Over Thanksgiving I had a friend try to go through my trade stock for the first time in about 15 years and was reminded it should be organized in some other way than “piles for all the decks I’m thinking of building eventually.”
Next year we Stifle our bounce land, boys. Blue is the best ramp color
But then we don't draw a card 😫
Strict Proctor. Works with Lotus Field, will work with bounce.
Tomer’s evolution into Crim has been awesome to watch lol (“maybe mill” cracked me up)
Happy New Year to my favorite magic channel
Has Seth always had that blood moon guitar? It is sweet!
Yes, he had it for quite some time now. Afaik it was gifted from a fan or something along those lines.
At my LGS no one plays CEDH, but there are a handful of people who have decks that will combo off on turn 3. Anje madness, Heliod Wheel, etc.
No one is running the cards you guys run here. You are in high powered casual, even if you don't necessarily build the decks to it. It's like you guys are playing pioneer, but with standard decks - you haven't adjusted the deck synergy, but you've added in cards that inherently increase the power, mostly through your card raw and land packages
Very exicted for more budget decks in 2024. We thought Richard was cooking before, just wait, the entire kitchen will be up in flames by February.
17:45 everyone please pay attention to seths face. This is the reaction I have every time Crim thinks he is clever, and he needs to curb his enthusiasm. XD
im a p big fan of crim cuz he plays a great villain but i think his cyniscm is sometimes be a lil rude, ignoring themes included. Alll this to say thanks that was the funniest thing ive ever seen, watched 6 times. thanks for pointing it out. Good on richard for creating an environment that fosters these genuine reactions
He was literally raised on Spongebob.
This was a lot of fun, and thought-provoking. Yay for more budget decks! I find that to be more challenging in some ways - figuring out how to use all the cards, not just the expensive bombs (that many of us never pull, or cannot afford - proxy as desired). And be positive about those cards while playing them 😊
Our resolution has been to organize our cards too, and to try new things. For Christmas I built my kids custom decks, around what they like or want to do (one is called Don't Touch Me, and I'll Hug You!). My son gave me proxies of Shroofus, and Thurid, and the My Little Ponies cards, so I can build green Krenko (Krenko is his favorite), and horses/pegasi/unicorns. Whee! Happy New Year!🎉🎉🎉
I always consider an 8 as stuff that is just below fringe cedh. So turn 5 wins or insurmountable advantage. Y'all are probably an actual 7 and most casual decks are a 5 or 6
I agree. Outside of numbers, I'd say the CC crew sits just below 'high power'. They have lots it powerful staples in every one of their decks, but their house bans & deckbuilding restrictions (incl playing for content) holds them back.
The issue in my eyes is more that the EDH community at large seems to think that "a 7" is "an average casual deck", when in reality a 5-6 is more like the average.
Crim not being a chaos goblin and being "serious" would be an amazing watch
2025 will be the year that people learn that you can just play on curve
High Power Casual (HPC):
1. Strong commanders that are either part of a combo/wincon or gain strong value, that typically need to be answered. Examples: Niv Mizzet/Curiosity, Korvold, Winota, Yuriko, or anything in Simic. They are scary because they can threaten a win as part of a combo or can gain so much value that you must kill-on-site.
2. Fast mana. Before all my HPC decks played Crypt, Vault, J-Lotus, Ancient Tomb, even if it was to ramp into casual wincons. I am using this fast mana to speed up my casual plays.
3. Efficient wincons, which is usually combo but doesn’t have to be. I tend to prefer to double spell and to leave interaction open because the higher power you go, each deck can have powerful plays even if it’s not a combo. If it’s a combo, you better have left mana open on your turn. A lot of HPC strategies may be 3-card combos rather than Thoracle or a combo with the commander. And if they’re not a combo deck, say you’re an aggro Voltron deck, you should be able to kill one player on T4.
4. Strong/Efficient Interaction and counterspells are more prevalent, including free interaction (FoW or FoN) to address the stronger, more powerful game-ending plays. This means my curve has decreased in order to not get blown out by Blue. You expect much more interaction because everyone’s plays in HPC may be game-winning if you don’t leave open interaction or counter spell. This is why Blue moves up in power the higher power level you go up. Board wipes are less common because they are 4 mana so you’ll get blown out by a counter spell and wasted your whole turn. In addition, they’re not common because you need instant speed interaction or you won’t have the answer and will just die on an opponent’s turn.
5. Quality of cards are stronger. I expect all the staples in HPC: Jeskas’s Will and Breach in red; Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift in blue, Urborg and Cabal Coffers in black, Trouble in Pairs, Dranith Magistrate, and T-Pro in white, etc. There is no chaff in these lists because everyone is playing 12-14 pieces of 2 mana ramp or rocks and people understand the Curve.
6. Example: HPC is essentially best-in-class cards, efficient interaction, fast mana, and optimized wincons. As an example of HPC, I had a Voltron deck which is clearly a casual strategy, but prior to the recent ban, it played Lotus, Crypt, Vault, Ancient Tomb, Mox Opal, ramped out the commander T 1 or 2, and immediately spammed equipment to kill one player by Voltron damage by T4. It had 14 two-mana rocks, not even counting the fast mana, and will typically kill one player by T4 while holding up free spells, such as Flawless Maneuver, Flare of Fortitude, T-Pro, etc. It required removal or interaction on specific turns or otherwise it’s too late because all the equipment provided protection. ,
33:29 I’m sorry but this is what’s wrong with the podcast. You have Richard speaking, tomar on the phone looking down, crim AS ALWAYS looking to another screen probably watching some anime or texting via desktop.. Seth is the lone star of the show.. always engaged, always on in. Sometimes when Seth stops speaking there’s a long silence because people aren’t even paying attention and realize he stopped talking late.. without Seth, this podcast would go down in flames
I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s exactly what Crim’s doing lol. He is the poster child of the stereotypical zoomer mindset. Tomer though…I’d like to think he wouldn’t be that short-spanned, but who knows. Maybe he’s looking at stuff related to the podcast. Or maybe not, who knows.
@ tomer does make good content and does have a passion about magic. Crim on the other hand, great personality but not a good content creator
I'd say the Clash has always played around the Casual Level 6-7 due to having a in-house banlist for content. The fact that cards like Sol Ring, Rhystic Study, and Smothering Tithe are discouraged does warp how some decks can operate compared to having those staples in because of how much of an impact those cards can have.
Spot on. They sometimes look higher tier because they are all good players with strong understandings of card interactions. They tend to play weak and hamstrung decks on clash that are 6-7 in power.
I know Tomer lives 50% of the year in France and the other half in Canada but i swear to god ive never see him with the same background twice in a row :D
Tomer has more of a grasp where 8-power decks are. Clash decks are more like 6.5-power with a handicap banned list and built for content. But yeah, an 8 should be a 2-punch Gwenna dropping green seven drops on turn 3, or Yoshi-Rograkh clearing a table on turn 5 or 6 in a single sweep, or even Wolverine alpha striking a full table. They're powerful, optimized, but can't hang with the interaction and stacks of powers 9-10 which are bordering on solved formats.
Wolverine list pleae?
I've had the same situation as Crim when talking about budget decks. I build a $35 ninja deck and when Duskmourn came out I wanted to add the new Kaito, Bane of Nightmares to the deck and my wife pulled the textured foil version and I haven't added it because it feels dumb to add a card to the deck that costs twice as much as the rest of the deck. But at the same time it also feels dumb to buy a normal copy when we have one already.
On that same note, she also pulled the fracture foil Kaito, Cunning Infiltrator from Foundations. I guess the world is telling me to drop the $35 deck and build a blinged out Ninja deck
Seth: "I think the whole number system is bonked and we don't know what we're talking about."
Nailed it. Every commander player everywhere thinks they are 7 regardless of the actual cards in deck.
Would love to see more budget, especially that $50-150 zone.
Super excited for Tomer budget brews! I love finding awesome interaction of cards I wouldn't have found. Plus finding them in your bulk bin!
I would love to see more budget brewing in 2025!
4:40 tomer’s explanation of the legacy FNM group playing commander absolutely nails the difference between clash and power level 8
I would also point out that the politicking and general style of clash would not play out the same if all their decks were optimized to win by turn 4-5. It wouldn’t make as entertaining of content.
My thoughts on combos: fine back up plans or alt wincons that fit a deck's theme. Thats how I justify and use combos in casual commander. If I want the deck to be higher than a 7 I'd add tutors to that deck and make the deck focus a little more towards playing those combos.
Richard: I play what could be considered ‘level 8’ pretty often with my personal playgroup that has some rapport with other LGS regulars in our area and for that we often don’t need to pubstomp on casual 7s. On Tomer’s point and because I too am on a budget, the decks that “can hang” are really what you want to build- we are down do 31 lands+ 4 MDFCS, another 15-18 mana sources, a ton of advantage, tons of removal and interaction (manglehorn counts tho) and then really just a 15-20 card core. The notable commanders in our group are Nekusar, Giada, Ur-Dragon, Krenko (mob boss), Master (fallout), Nath, Animar, Ghyrson Starn, Goreclaw, Jacob Hauken, Sram, and a few other oldies, goodies, and dark horses.
Can we have Seth build a "budget" deck using only cards he opened on the unboxing channel?
This; he definitely has multiple edh decks worth of bulk
I hope Tomer resolves to embrace his role as arch enemy. Complaining just gets you killed faster.
Commander clash varies between 6.5-8, Depending on the weekly challalenhe etc. You guys houseman ban format staples like Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe, so you'd need to play those to get the true 8/9 experience. Not saying you SHOULD, but that's what would need to happen to bring the show to a consistent 8
In my experience, the average LGS casual game has a mix of fun yet focused decks and precons (upgraded, and not). So 4s, 5s, and 6s are the norm, not 7s. Hence clash would be the 6.5-7.5 range depending on episode.
I think the pretty big difference between your power level and the higher ones is your house banned list like sol ring etc.
My resolution for this year is that I want to host a box brawl or draft.
Just get a booster box and play sealed with my Commander group. It sounds fun!
Combo feels bad if your opponents don't know it's coming. The fun of combo/storm is trying to survive long enough to pull ot off
This is the matrix that I have always used when building my own decks.
Tier 5
Decks probably have a broad strategy in mind; most are somewhat generalist, often employing a wide array "goodstuff" cards, like draw spells, board wipes, etc., to supplement their primary goal. Mana Bases and card choices are better, but often still inefficient, due to budget or prioritizing personal favorites over strategic choices.
Tier 6
Decks have a definite strategy in mind, or multiple that synergize well to enable a solid gameplan. Spell choices are more focused, but with mixed levels of efficiency. Lands entering untapped are prioritized.
Battlecruiser decks are uncommon. Most decks contain at least one hard wincon, usually a combo. Decks often have a modest budget.
Tier 7
Decks are largely refined down to just the best cards for their strategy. Perfect / nearly-perfect land bases, multiple cheap tutors, highly efficient ramp, draw, etc. Most decks become less generalist as they focus more heavily on their primary strategy. Expect to see lots of powerful staples. Higher-budget decks are fairly common.
Tier 8
Decks have a specific, consistent, gameplan, often following defined lines of play. Every card enables, supports, or protects the deck's primary strategy. Lots of low-cost ramp & tight Curves means casting multiple spells a turn can be expected as early as Turn 1. Many decks, but not all, are high-budget to budgetless.
I also think it is important to note that "higher power level" does not necessarily mean decks are mean (Humilty, Blood Moon, etc.) Those cards may be good, but so are many casual staples. If casual players can play draw and ramp staples, they can play interactive staples too. People just don't because whining is annoying.
I wanna see a Clash episode where everyone is playing combat trick aggro. Then we will see who the best bluffer is
This could be quite funny
Seth is right, Combo for most people is 2 or 3 card combos that are fairly easy to assemble or can only be interacted on the stack.
Honestly, anything beyond that is more of an engine that went into overdrive
I like that way of putting it, "engine that went into overdrive". Going to steal that going forward when describing any combination of 4+ cards in my deck that would go infinite.
To Seth’s point I’ve honestly found that showing my hand it’s the only thing that will convince people of anything
I appreciate Tomer defending us combo lovers
Combo is really good... when nobody at the table has targeted removal.
Clash meta killed blue for no reason. In the wild the “mana rocks die to farewell” argument doesn’t hold up when the blue guy with 15 rocks counters your farewell.
Welcome to MTGGoldfish, where everything is made up and the resolutions don't matter!
Crim and I have the same philosophy when putting together a a pauper deck! Those decks are the best place for Alt Arts and Secret Lairs.
Happy new years guys. My resolution was to try some different magic content creators out. Done it but given up already, y’all the best 😂
I would say the group is typically playing at a high 7 to low 8. You have solid concise plans, a good package of cards to get you there, ramp, draw, maybe even some tutors, etc. I would say from what I've seen if you goldfished your decks, you could reliably have some sort of a win con out between turns 6-8 with some ways to protect it. That to me puts you close to a solid 8. It's once you start adding maybe some lighter combos, or tutors for those combos that you push into high 8 or even low 9.
the biggest thing that makes commander clash a 7 rather than an 8 is the speed of play - you assume sweepers are coming, you assume you’ll have time for land ramp to matter, you assume you won’t lose because you don’t have swords up. not so in power level 8 - you should expect wins from hand from turn 5ish onward and you will need to either interact with them or be winning yourself! that’s why mana rocks are good, even if they get farewelled- you have the mana advantage on the most important turns of the game, that being from turns 2 to 6. same with single target removal - it’s mana efficient when all you need is to stop a win attempt long enough to pull off yours.
Power level 8 includes cEDH strategies WITHOUT all of the fast mana / best card support. And it includes NON-cEDH strategies WITH all of the fast mana / best card support.
So, it’s Niv-Mizzet Parun WITHOUT Dockside, Jeweled Lotus, etc. (the recent bans REMOVED Niv from competitive viability). And it’s Ur-Dragon with ALL of the fast mana so you can ramp to dragons FAST.
Neither of these strategies can sit at a cEDH table, but both wipe the floor with power level 7s.
I think a good measure of an 8 is to look at the decks that USED to be cEDH that are no longer competitively viable due to bans. 👀
@@blackvneckux228Honestly you might be "cooking" Etali post ban might be an 8.
Your custom Banlist makes you a 6.. you are tuned within self prescribed limitations.
The difference between casual and high power, are combos and interaction.
I would like to see a game where everyone plays their favorite deck
Richard. I would go back and look at the birds deck you built for Las Vegas 2022 for ideas of “powerful” things to put into your deck . I played against you in two different pods, and that deck kicked butt! If I recall when we spoke at the end of the event you had mentioned that you had zero losses that whole weekend.
i started playing a couple years ago and i think that combo is super fun even in casual. i think the way to make it feel fun and fair is 1) more then 2 cards 2) dont tutor for the peices
You guys are DEFINITELY higher power than my pod. You play tons of expensive staples and optimized manabases, which is already above most casual players. You may make decks to themes but you go all out with really strong cards to get as much power and consistency out of the theme as possible.
You can also put combos in decks that aren't meant to win through combos. You don't have to dedicate your entire deck to it, I find combo wins to be the most fun when my draws happen to put me into an infinite board state.
Sounds like you play in a low power pod
Quick make a list so we can bring it up next year.
So
Seth- Less politicking by Politicking more & Grixy baby
Richard- Certified Power Level 8 player
Tomer- Become more Crim Like and enjoy the Chaos on a budget
Crim- Two cards go BRRRRRRR, words go sushhhh.
For real though…been watching for years at this point your ever evolving meta and genuine awesome chemistry between you guys is so enjoyable. Really grateful for the show. Like every week this awesome content happens with great editing, and always interesting games. The entire Goldfish crew rocks and your website is so useful. My resolution is to engage with the videos better.
29:51 Equating the ability to deal with combos such as godo helm, kiki twin, and niv curiosity to "well i didnt have free counter magic so i guess we're dead"is a crazy take to me. They are largely telegraphed play patterns and any form of creature removal or in all 3 cases artifact removal can answer them. Tomer's take was the most sane
I think 1-200$ budget is probably the best range for budget decks because it lets you get some big hay makers that allow you to have multiple wincons, without it just being all of the best stuff around.
20:00 Tomer!! If you're in the market for a spellslinging, control-y, combo-y deck that's also derpy, durdley, and weird, I have a deck for you!
The deck is Kairi, The Swirling Sky, and the whole gist is to clone Kairi with a whole bunch of Quasiduplicate effects to get his death trigger, milling yourself out and buying back both the clone spell and whatever else you need.
Its a grindy deck that lends itself really well towards control since Kairi can get back all manner of counterspells, removal spells, and board wipes, often at instant speed, and he HAS A BOARD-WIPE AS THE OTHER MODE. Plus, you get to run Richard's blue ramp to appease him!
It's one of my all-time favorite brews, though I have to be careful not to pull it out at too-casual of tables.
my resolution is to try and play commander I played like 1 or 2 games last year in total
My experience based definition of power level 8 deck: stomps any table that defines itself as casual. Still loses hard at almost all cedh tables.
One time I went to an LGS, and over 2 or 3 turns I put together the Sanguine Bond/ Exquisite Blood combo, it was like turn 10, I played Exquisite Blood, and passed
I couldn't even do anything to actually trigger it myself that turn, I said here you go "deal with it before my turn", but after passing the next guy triggered the combo for me, and one of the guys got mad I won on like turn 10, after assembling a 10 mana combo that took me multiple turns to actually even fully assemble.
So I think people are talking about like expensive or like 4 card combos when they say they hate combos... XD
Gang I hate to say it but you're decks are high powered, you just all pull your punches! Tomer even mentioned the episode where Seth did the Phage combo to win--in that ep the editor put in a note that said "Yes, Seth saw he had this combo available far earlier than he pulled it off. He just wanted the game to continue." I know it's for content and that's chill, but there's your answer
41:05 two blue ramp options I have been happy with:
Retraced Image - if you are playing basics, so probably not these guys haha
Copy Land
I hate making suggestions, as you lot have come up with some amazing themes in the past.
But, I would love to see decks built around famous non-EDH decks from Magic’s history. Take ideas like Caw Blade, Affinity, Simic Food, 8 Rack, Grixis Delver, etc., and build an entire EDH deck as true to the original deck concept as you can.
Some of my favorite commander decks were/are built around my time playing other constructed formats. So this is something I think you brewers could do some fun things with!
My 2025 Commander resolution is to normalize the card Razia’s Purification. FACT: it is simultaneously more color restrictive and less powerful than Farewell, which everyone accepts (much harder to make Razia’s one-sided, doesn’t exile). FACT: it’s one of vanishingly few clean answers to greedy land ramp. OPINION (but also kinda factual): it’s got the sickest board wipe art in the OG foil except for possibly a foil Planar Chaos Damnation
Or, just print more urza's sylex kind of cards.
I think in terms of power level I think you guys are playing the most efficient (besides the house banned cards) version of those decks.
Brew Clue: A game of Commander where your commander is kept hidden and you can either win by winning normally or guessing correctly all 3 of your opponents hidden commanders. Would have to be rules like you can only guess on your own turn, you take damage for every turn cycle you dont play a land or cast a spell, if you guess incorrectly you take damage, and if you guess correctly players have until your next turn to try and kill you. Would have to be a 5th person not playing who knows the commanders, and each player would have to either go into this blind or make sure the 99 actually match the commander
This is a bad idea but just came to mind watching this and wanted to type it out lol
I love playing combo decks because I build layered combos that are not 1 card + commander. And are usually 3+ cards. Like my human deck plays katilda+village bell ringer +kogla the titan ape. This, with enough humans, is infinite mana and infinite +1/1 counters on the team. But it takes work to get there, is a lot of mana. And is actually fun to pull off
I think you guys are a solid 6.5-8 depending on the week and theme, without the house banlisy i think that gets shifted to 8-9 easily.
Richard is just the Grima of the Clash environment.
I agree with Tomer. Clash's tendency to freak out is really annoying. Jokes are fun, but then you sometimes back it up with actions and I'm not a fan of that.
Non-infinite combat is the most universally interactive space in the game! Focusing on it as your win-condition makes it more likely youll have a tug of war game where it feels like different styles of wizards are duking it out with their minions. Infinite combos tend to feel like someone broke the game rules. Lots of early combos were literally design oversight and now theyre just part of the game's identity.
The best way to kill Richard stratagems is with direct damage triggers. Aristrocrats would be best, since they have a million separate triggers, none that are individually worth fogging and they don’t really mind a boardwipe or two. I am also a proponent of group slug, wheel decks, burn or spellslinger. All of these are at least partially immune to Richard shenanigans, and are able to press life totals throughout the game.
As someone that plays a lot of 8 style games Richard is correct in assuming that its mostly the same vibe as lower tier commander. You might run more spot removal over board wipes because of the lethality increase from higher tier Commanders but it's really just more optimized and generally the player base is more experienced so you worry much less about feel bads and play meaner cards
Hurray for more budget decks from Tomer… ok to more hot (weird) takes from Richard.
I would love to see a no staples week! Something about every card being under a certain % on EDHREC?
With all the politics talk I would recommend those with a politic resolution to follow a fight the table policy which is to be honest in what your deck is does, can do and when your opponents should fear you. So that when you say “I’m not a threat”your opponents actually will actually believe you and you don’t get to a point where you get a win from deception that ends up feeling scummy
This is how I’ve always thought about power levels or brackets.
Bracket one power lv 10 CEDH. Best staples all the fast mana best commanders best strategies. Object is to win.
Bracket 2 power levels 8-9. Any commander ANY strategy any staples in any number. Fast mana. Do what ever in the most powerful way possible. Strategies that aren’t quite good enough for C but still frowned on in casual. Take all the turns blow up all the lands use fast mana free interaction.
Bracket 3 power level 7. Good/okay commanders, up graded pre-cons. Friendly strategies. Minimal to almost no staples. Lots of synergy in your strategy/theme to do things like draw cards. Without having to play rhystic study. Or playing study as the one of the few hyper staples in your deck. If you are gonna struggle to draw cards. No fast mana.
Bracket 4 power level 6 or less. pre-cons barely upgraded pre-cons or 99 cards you had laying around. Super jank themes no hyper staples.
This is the road map my various play groups started following.
The discussion about whether to attack into Richard's spirited companion is really asking about whether the rest of the crew thinks they can can go net 2+ positive on card value, which is super greedy!
Swinging 4 damage into spirited companion is still net positive because you don't lose the creature. Letting the board get bigger by not swinging increases the need for a board wipe, which will net you negative on card advantage when you get wrathed.
The crackback is another story but you still have to ask yourself, how bad will it really be?
Tomer resolution of zombie plants producing food is the best resolution, hands down!
I already think that if you're running smothering tithe, and rhystic study, and cyclonic rift, and trubble in pairs... it's a difficult to say with a straight face that your deck is completely casual.
If you have a high chance of playing staples on that power level in most games, then it's probably an eight Imo
Mid-range, no wincon, and convincing Seth to play for 2nd so you can tap him with a 1/1 to win. The Richard special.
3:34 power level. Yall be at 6-7. ❤❤ long time viewer
Precons are 3-4 7:00
THANK YOU SO MUCH SETH. Local games have gotten infinitely smoother when everyone is just making decisions for themselves. Cant wait to see less politicking this year
The biggest difference between clash and power level 8 is the lack of combos. In 8, nearly every deck can kill you with a combo or over-the-top synergy by t5-7 if you don't have some form of interaction.
58:47 We're aware that Tomer's plants have gone to a farm upstate, but the true question is... *WHERE ARE OUR SLEEPING CORGI'S CRIM!?!?!!?*
The true *SHOW PROOF WITH A NEWSPAPER!!!*