Agree about the F-4 damage model. Eating R-60 could be fine as it's a small warhead, but not direct rocket hits. Maybe it's realistic maybe not, but for sure there are huge discrepancies between modules. Some of them will always fall apart after any hits.
rockets in the mig19 have an even smaller explosive than from the R60 wich has 3kgs of explosives, the rockets have less than 2kg. If its the ORO 57K pods that use the S5M rockets. Im not being super specific but the rockets that go in the ORO 57K generally dont have more than 2kg of explosives but the specifics of the S5M arent known as far as i could find.
@@flick_shot_5625 yes, but the R60 has a proximity fuze, while the S5M had to score a direct contact hit. It also looked like he hit with at least a pair of them, and even if we say the enemy could have survived, there wasn't even visual damage. Should have at least lost elevators.
yesterday, on the contention server, I hit an Apache with a magic two missile, he landed in the desert, I then did a gun run with the mirage guns and still did not get a kill, I think he was able to reslot after the gun strafe😢
It’s not their fault though, if you’re immobile on the ground due to damage what else are you meant to do? Just sit there indefinitely? Game’s dogwank damage modelling is to blame.
I have once used 4 R60s on a Phantom, 2 from the top/front and 2 into his engines and he went home. Heatblur in the forums say "We have modelled over 1500 individual failures we've done nothing wrong". Armchair aircraft builders try to explain it away with the a too small warhead or the "build quality" of the F4. I simply call BS.
@@kizvy Oh yeah it’ll easily rinse the T-2, the Crusader I’ve not seen much or really flown so couldn’t say for sure but I’ve killed them with the MiG-17 so I’d imagine it’s not too much of a stretch for the Farmer 👌🏼
I just want a SEA/Vietnam map so I can live out my Phantom and Pharmer Phantasies. And the Thunderchief. And the Hun, when that comes out. And the F-104.
I know what people are saying about the Phantom Damage model but im my personal experience Ive taken one manpad or stinger and had it take out both engines. Same goes fot AAA light hits from a Shilka have taken my wing off plenty of times when I get kill hungry.
@@kizvy It’s because the damage models are abysmal, it’s essentially built around more modern aircraft and using missiles for everything - also it’s designed primarily for single player; aircraft can tank damage so single player people can feel more accomplished landing after tanking hits, it just makes PvP a bit wank at times.
I think there's a middle point, planes in warthunder are made out of paper mache, while planes in dcs are flying tanks. Planes have been shown to take substantial hits and fly back to base so dcs gets it more right but maybe overdoes it slightly
You’re definitely applying some survivorship bias there, the planes that make it back beaten up are the exception not the rule. The conditions required to maintain flight are quite narrow, gunfire and explosives only have to damage structural, electrical or engine/fuel related components and the aircraft is more or less fucked. The question then becomes how fucked? Honestly WarThunder does a better job, all hits are visible however minor so there’s much more visual feedback allowing you to gauge the ability of the opponent to keep flying/fighting. DCS has white or black smoke, and bits falling off, as well as a few places that bullet holes appear etc, but none of the damage sustained is localised to the impact area of the actual projectiles that struck the aircraft. It makes it impossible to tell whether a contact is still combat effective or not. I’ve eaten multiple missiles in the Phantom and seen the launch aircraft fly away assuming I’m dead, because anything else would be, only for me to turn into them and shoot them down whilst they thought they were safe. That just doesn’t happen in WarThunder because the enemy aircraft’s flight worthiness is clear as day by inspecting the 3D model.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy I wonder how much data the module makers have access to from MP servers. Speaking from experience, issues found by dedicated QA will never capture all the wild situations consumers put themselves in. These issues feel like a result of that, as well as a lack of data availability on the side of the module makers. There is also the claim from ED that most players only touch SP, which doesn't provide as much financial incentive to the module makers to provide quality MP support. I'm not sure what sort of analytics you can pull from DCS Servers, but I seriously doubt they can get the same quality of data the snail can pull from warthunder. If the infrastructure exists to pull that sort of data from the server, then perhaps HB can get some data from the public and put it to use in their modules. Now that they are the new faces on ECW, they should have some pressure to better support MP gameplay. This might be the crackpipe talking, but maybe we could get updated damage models for the tomcat and the viggen too
13:33 People love to sing Heatblur's praises but apparently everyone has Alzheimer's when it comes to remembering their nonexistent damage models on the viggen and F-14 through the years...
@@Rubberduckzillas Yeah, the Tomcat is definitely in the same tanking-four-R-60s league, it’s just rarer to see anyone shooting R60s at them to notice. They definitely focused more on the single player experience and the “1,500 part failures” than making the damn thing actually die. I think the single player focus actually promotes tanky damage models so people can have a higher success rate or feel more accomplished when they land after taking a hit. In PvP settings it’s just a bit of a meme, but it’s not just Heatblur modules, I could go off on this for a while - in fact I have a video in the pipeline talking about it.
i think its more ED fucking up their implementation of everything, like with the radar when the Phantom was released. I dont feel like ED is smart enough for shenanigans like this. Also Enigma server has scripts that alter damage as well using blast radius etc.
@@19Koty96 That is correct. Heatblur did, but the phantom delay and the radar issues both stemmed from ED not doing their jobs. Heatblur makes the F4 but ED is heavily involved in it and they have to because its their own platform. They can screw things over just as much as Heatblur.
Damn, it would be nice to know if those rockets did anything at all to the phantom.
That skyhawk was on PEDs
Trenboloney sandwich for the Skyhawk
LMAO
Agree about the F-4 damage model. Eating R-60 could be fine as it's a small warhead, but not direct rocket hits. Maybe it's realistic maybe not, but for sure there are huge discrepancies between modules. Some of them will always fall apart after any hits.
rockets in the mig19 have an even smaller explosive than from the R60 wich has 3kgs of explosives, the rockets have less than 2kg. If its the ORO 57K pods that use the S5M rockets. Im not being super specific but the rockets that go in the ORO 57K generally dont have more than 2kg of explosives but the specifics of the S5M arent known as far as i could find.
@@flick_shot_5625 yes, but the R60 has a proximity fuze, while the S5M had to score a direct contact hit. It also looked like he hit with at least a pair of them, and even if we say the enemy could have survived, there wasn't even visual damage. Should have at least lost elevators.
yesterday, on the contention server, I hit an Apache with a magic two missile, he landed in the desert, I then did a gun run with the mirage guns and still did not get a kill, I think he was able to reslot after the gun strafe😢
@@Starscream471 technically thats reslotting during combat denying someone a kill and thats against server rules
It’s not their fault though, if you’re immobile on the ground due to damage what else are you meant to do? Just sit there indefinitely?
Game’s dogwank damage modelling is to blame.
13:33 I was about to comment how you did him so dirty by firing rockets at him but then he survived...
I have once used 4 R60s on a Phantom, 2 from the top/front and 2 into his engines and he went home.
Heatblur in the forums say "We have modelled over 1500 individual failures we've done nothing wrong".
Armchair aircraft builders try to explain it away with the a too small warhead or the "build quality" of the F4.
I simply call BS.
eating a 37mm cannon round.. yeah i don't think so.. also eating a rocket. just kinetic force is enough to disrupt stuff and make you crash..
Yup, yet the Phantom tanks all - I’ve even had them tank R-27s to the face and continue to guide Sparrows onto the launch aircraft.
Absolute meme
Some lovely gun kills, still find myself fine tuning my stick as I'm terrible at keeping my line consistent to land hits.
Using the S-5 for it's intended use case 😎
First time I’ve ever managed to land hits, so obviously they do nothing 😩
Love the Farmer. Wish I was competent on it. 😃
Started playing with the Chinese farmer in wt… and man it just does not lose energy. Managed to win a dogfight with a f8 crusader and a t-2
@@kizvy
Oh yeah it’ll easily rinse the T-2, the Crusader I’ve not seen much or really flown so couldn’t say for sure but I’ve killed them with the MiG-17 so I’d imagine it’s not too much of a stretch for the Farmer 👌🏼
i hope the farmer stays playable with the whole razbam situation
i forgot they made that, and the harrier damn this thing affects more things than i thought
@@cornexus1051 the mig 19, harrier and mirage 2000c aswell as the f15e
I just want a SEA/Vietnam map so I can live out my Phantom and Pharmer Phantasies. And the Thunderchief. And the Hun, when that comes out. And the F-104.
@@Majima_Nowhere
And the Fresco
I know what people are saying about the Phantom Damage model but im my personal experience Ive taken one manpad or stinger and had it take out both engines. Same goes fot AAA light hits from a Shilka have taken my wing off plenty of times when I get kill hungry.
i was lucky to tank 5 manpads in 1 engagement (i think a few might have missed im not sure it was a thunderrun on an airfield)
@@flick_shot_5625 your a lucky one I guess 😂😂
Noice video as always!
damn, planes in dcs take a fucking beating compared to war thunder
@@kizvy
It’s because the damage models are abysmal, it’s essentially built around more modern aircraft and using missiles for everything - also it’s designed primarily for single player; aircraft can tank damage so single player people can feel more accomplished landing after tanking hits, it just makes PvP a bit wank at times.
I think there's a middle point, planes in warthunder are made out of paper mache, while planes in dcs are flying tanks. Planes have been shown to take substantial hits and fly back to base so dcs gets it more right but maybe overdoes it slightly
You’re definitely applying some survivorship bias there, the planes that make it back beaten up are the exception not the rule.
The conditions required to maintain flight are quite narrow, gunfire and explosives only have to damage structural, electrical or engine/fuel related components and the aircraft is more or less fucked.
The question then becomes how fucked?
Honestly WarThunder does a better job, all hits are visible however minor so there’s much more visual feedback allowing you to gauge the ability of the opponent to keep flying/fighting.
DCS has white or black smoke, and bits falling off, as well as a few places that bullet holes appear etc, but none of the damage sustained is localised to the impact area of the actual projectiles that struck the aircraft.
It makes it impossible to tell whether a contact is still combat effective or not.
I’ve eaten multiple missiles in the Phantom and seen the launch aircraft fly away assuming I’m dead, because anything else would be, only for me to turn into them and shoot them down whilst they thought they were safe.
That just doesn’t happen in WarThunder because the enemy aircraft’s flight worthiness is clear as day by inspecting the 3D model.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy I wonder how much data the module makers have access to from MP servers. Speaking from experience, issues found by dedicated QA will never capture all the wild situations consumers put themselves in. These issues feel like a result of that, as well as a lack of data availability on the side of the module makers. There is also the claim from ED that most players only touch SP, which doesn't provide as much financial incentive to the module makers to provide quality MP support.
I'm not sure what sort of analytics you can pull from DCS Servers, but I seriously doubt they can get the same quality of data the snail can pull from warthunder. If the infrastructure exists to pull that sort of data from the server, then perhaps HB can get some data from the public and put it to use in their modules. Now that they are the new faces on ECW, they should have some pressure to better support MP gameplay. This might be the crackpipe talking, but maybe we could get updated damage models for the tomcat and the viggen too
@@petlemons
Fingers crossed
Love this jet!
13:33 People love to sing Heatblur's praises but apparently everyone has Alzheimer's when it comes to remembering their nonexistent damage models on the viggen and F-14 through the years...
@@Rubberduckzillas
Yeah, the Tomcat is definitely in the same tanking-four-R-60s league, it’s just rarer to see anyone shooting R60s at them to notice.
They definitely focused more on the single player experience and the “1,500 part failures” than making the damn thing actually die.
I think the single player focus actually promotes tanky damage models so people can have a higher success rate or feel more accomplished when they land after taking a hit.
In PvP settings it’s just a bit of a meme, but it’s not just Heatblur modules, I could go off on this for a while - in fact I have a video in the pipeline talking about it.
Nice vid man
No cowntermeasures?? Moooo!
You'd get on well with my partner coming out with puns like that, I feel like 75% of the sounds I make are groans at her terrible puns
Booooo!! 🤣
are there aim 9ds on enigmas cold war server on the 1960s preset
Are 9Ds even in the game?
It’s just 9Bs and R3Ss
@@Bullet4MyEnemy nope, never seen a aim 9 D
If there's more modern Sidewinders for the 60s settings it would be the AIM-9E.
I can just see some underhanded shenanigans with new modules being coded tanky to keep people buying them as long as possible
i think its more ED fucking up their implementation of everything, like with the radar when the Phantom was released. I dont feel like ED is smart enough for shenanigans like this. Also Enigma server has scripts that alter damage as well using blast radius etc.
@@flick_shot_5625 ED didn't make the Phantom.
@@19Koty96 That is correct. Heatblur did, but the phantom delay and the radar issues both stemmed from ED not doing their jobs. Heatblur makes the F4 but ED is heavily involved in it and they have to because its their own platform. They can screw things over just as much as Heatblur.
@@flick_shot_5625 right, I can see what you mean now.