This program, and others like the one a few years ago inviting President Carter to discuss his controversial book, are important and courageous actions from the Brandeis University community are are to be applauded.
Phooey, read "Under a mushrrom cloud" by Ottolenghi for a more worrying scenario that now is forseeable for anyone with concerns about the future. What he says is something to reflect on.
I'd like to say one thing more. The people of Gaza benefitted considerably during periods of calm when they often came to Israel to work and to sell produce on a regular daily basis, In the 1990s, when there was great hope ON BOTH SIDES, that peace might finally actually materialise, that relations between Arab and Jew were warm and open across the Middle East. The breakdown in peace talks and the failure to revive them has caused untold misery and has allowed for extremism to dictate.
my question to judge Goldstone: you talked about deliberate damage done to civilians and civilian structures, can you show me a war fought in urban areas in which such events did not occur? iI doubt it. that brings me to wonder if a similar investigation was performed on any other conflict over the last, say, 70 years, would it not have found all the parties involved accused of war crimes? and this would include countries such as the UK, Germany, France and... the USA.
@jonahfox Why would they give back the land? Because it is illegal to aqurie land by war in the modern era. There was only 1 time when this happened. Do you know what time it was?
It might be useful for you to take a look at Ross Kemp's quite revealing 2 part documentary on Gaza and Israel. It's done with some empathy for the 2 sides. Perhaps we can discuss this another time. Also Tim Collins short 9 minute film is revealing too about Gaza. What I appreciated about the 2 films was that they did not emote as much film footage does. As regards to democracy, the kind of election that it was was something out of a nightmare: the sort where 51% vote to destroy the other 49%!
"Before the war, Sadat offered peace in exchange for a full withdrawal to the 67 borders and just settlement of the Palestinian refugee crisis.... Israel refused". There is some truth Phooey in what you say on this point and indeed it was not believed by Israel but this was more of an admitted mistake rather than a plan to construct settlements regardless. Once Sadat clarified further his intentions regarding peace and recognition there was no going back and settlements were removed.
Regarding Chinkin, it is unfortunate they didn't remove her, but I would be interested to know what effect she had on the gathering of evidence. If one person is biased in a large group of unbiased, then it may not have mattered. If Isreal had worked with Goldstone, maybe they could have removed or marginalized her role. Isreal chose not to do so. Also, I believe that her remarks deal with the right to use force, which the goldstone report did not address
"The recent threats from Syria and the Hezbollah are sobering and reflect a dangerous new reality." Agreed! And also their backers the Holocaust denying Iranian regime.
I strongly recommend you read the book I suggested and anther: The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones published in the 1980s but whose description of Arab Society gives ssome detailed reasoning as to why it has been so hard to bridge the gap.
contd. In this case, the moral principle that i think is worth following is the principle of distinction between noncomabtants and combatants in war, and the principle or proportionality. Another one is transparent inquiries into whether the aforementioned principles are being followed. I then inquire as to whether my state and its allies are living up to these principles. If they are not, I criticize them. Now do you see why I think the crimes of other states are irrelevant?
@MsZeitgeist85 We were talking about Egypt not Palestinians. We cant talk about all issues at once. Plan Dalet did not have anything to do with Egyptian acts of war. Egypt did start the war on May 15th, the day after Israel declared its independence.
My post was for bobpulga, but I would be glad to flesh out the point a bit. The moral principle that must be followed in order to enforce the principles of distinction/proportionality is a commitment to transparent government processes (or else how is the citizenry to know when disproportionate force is used?). As Goldstone pointed out, 10 months had past while the military was investigating itself in secret. I object to that b/c I share some responsibility for what happened as a US taxpayer.
If you don't accept the report, that's fine. The proper way to respond though is for Israel to do it's own investigation, with non military independent officials doing their work out in the open (like Goldstone did, for all to see). So if you don't accept Goldstone's findings, fine, just dispute them with your own evidence (or put pressure on Israel to do so, if you live there or live in the US.
It was not a trial. It was a fact finding mission, in which Goldstone gave his opinion as to whether international law had been violated. Of course it is not conclusive that crimes have been committed (but use common sense, it is likely they did on both sides). That is why Goldstone's main goal was to induce Hamas and Israel to conduct open and fair inquiries into the matter before any intl criminal trial is even recommended.
@nevskixx You are missing my point. I would never suggest that the Gaza and Iraqi invasions were "equivalent." I was trying to make a simple ethical point. Israelis and Americans are responsible for the predictable consequences of their own actions, not for the predictable consequences of other countries' actions. Bobpulga was trying to evade the issue of Israel's disproportionate use of force by pointing to Sri Lanka's actions. Making that move is morally bankrupt.
@MsZeitgeist85 Oh yeah, the straits were blocked from May 23rd until the war started. Which is only a little over a week anyways.. lol. And I dont know where you got the figure of 5 percent but Israel's primary energy supply came through the gulf which is of vital importance for any country.
@jonahfox Yes drug smuggling, look it up. In the early 60s Israel was smuggling drugs into Egypt and they admitted that they were printing millions of dollars of counterfid Egyptian money to cause hyperinflation in Egypt's economy in the early 60s. This did alot of damage to Egypt's economy.
Hello. Sorry it took me so long to respond. Life got in the way... I have no doubt you are a sincere person, but i remain unpersuaded by your posts. I think we just approach moral issues differently. To decide whether an action is right or wrong, I apply a simple analysis. I first look at what i'm responsible for (the actions of my state [US], and its allies [Israel]), I then see whether their actions conflict with a moral principle that I think is worth following.
@MsZeitgeist85 The only thing I could find was an article by somebody with zero citations that quoted an unnamed former colonel who said that Israel pushed drugs on Egyptian soldiers. Assuming this is true I don't understand why this would have any effect on Egypt's economy. It would only make the soldiers lazier than they already were. And again why would Israel give back the Sinai in the late 70s for peace? They could have easily kept it.
Of course for him building illegal settlements in occupied territories especially in east Jer and clearly making as much settlements as possible to make a palestine state impossible was not a motive for Hamas rockets on Israel
Don't get me wrong Phooey, I believe that conditions in Gaza are far from acceptable for ordinary folk. I do not hate Palestinians and hope that they too will have a viable state, but not one that calls for Israel's end. I detest racism and worry where the hatred will lead. It's not as simple as you make out.
@MsZeitgeist85 I don't understand what anything you said in this post has to do with whether or not Egypt started the war. Nassar was more than just talk. Like I said before, amassing the troops, kicking out the UN, blocking the strait with full knowledge that it would be considered an act of war and making pacts with other aggressive nations who were making the same threats that Nassar was. It's pretty clear.
I think you will find that if put to a UN vote today there would be a sizeable number of states who would vote Israel off the map phooey. Israel declared itself a state along partition lines offered in 1947, which the Arabs rejected. In 1948, Jordan in fact acquired territory including East Jerusalem. No one at the time supported Israel on that one.
Do you dispute any of the allegations in the Goldstone Report? All you should care about is what's true, whether you are responsible for harming someone, and if you are, you should try to stop it. The crime of others are irrelevant in this basic moral analysis. Would you have accepted Saddman Hussein's argument that his attack against Kuwait should be overlooked because of the crimes of the Serbs in Bosnia?
Israel has been accused of using "disproprtionate force" and therefore by inference unjustifiable force .Since no one has questioned proprtionality of force in any other example except in the case of Israel, it is this that offends. But indeed the evidence points in an opposite direction:Colonel Richard Kemp and Colonel Tim Collins, both experts on warfare, seem to think that Israel minimised civilian casualties which inevitably occurs, in war, and that they acted ethically as a whole.
As you rightly point out, phooey108 it is morally irresponsible and thuggish . However it is quite clear to most decent people that the reason that it is , is because underlying Holocaust denial is a regret and desire to will it to happen again. Isn't such an action not overwhelmingly calculated and political? Would it not be simpler to retract the statements and apologise in order to defuse the "hysteria" ?
The question of " legal" borders is always invoked as an argument , whatever period in Israel's existence, as Israel never being within its proper borders as a means to deny it any borders at all. Clearly some borders have defined within the framework of agreements Israel has had with Egypt and with Jordan for example, but the rest is open to discussion and to be decided once the parties to the conflict agree to resolve it phooey.
@jonahfox Mosche Dyane said that if Israel would have placed the UN forces on their side in 67 the war could have been avoided. Nassar in the 50s and 60s was like Ahmadenajad in Iran. Alot of talk and bluster but no action. There are quotes from Ehud Barack that tell more than Nassar. Like "If I was born a Palestinian I would have joined a terrorist group" Or from Sharone where he said " If I was Arrafat I would never make peace with Israel."
@MsZeitgeist85 Explain these quotes from Nasser just before the war: "we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." “We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948" He also expelled the UN from the Sinai, why would he do this?
Firstly Shlomo ben Ami is not MY foreign minister. You also misrepresent what he said. He did say about camp david that it would not have been acceptable but he also said that what Arafat was offered at Taba WAS, and the response he gave was to withdraw without making a counter proposal. There are a conflicting number of reasons that others have given but it had much to do with personal vanity . As for no second holocausts, your words do not reassure everyone.
" some of Israel's security issues are self generated problems." At least there is always some nuanced discussion. Note of course he said "some" and not "all". As for hatred, this has remained for a very very long time. Antisemitism is disgustingly rife in the Arab World and is largely overlooked by the West and the political left who often engage in antisemitic discourse : the extreme right in plain antisemitism. That said, racism has proliferated generally and not because of Cast Lead.
Goldstone has certainly had to eat his words, but at what a cost. His 500 pages are seriously now being viewed as a calumny. In short he now concludes that Israeli policy was not one of deliberate targeting of civilians, something that will be news to no one who follows the truth, but I worry about the others . To defend their beliefs, they must assume even crazier arguments or withdraw and concede that their libellous game is over. I fear that reason will not prevail.
The Arab world's human rights record and Iran's record is deplorable phooey-that's very true. Name me a single country that has regard for the welfare of its citizens in that region and you will understand that when Hamas says it is not extremist as you say so few of us really can believe it.
And i would not trust any country especially not mine to be impartial in a public self investigation and alot less if its being closed doors.And to think or say that Jews amongs all ppls have the integrity to fairly investigate themselves is so arrogant and pretentious...thats a shame
@MsZeitgeist85 No, Plan Dalet has nothing to do with Egypt's entry into the war. Egypt entered the war on May 15th 1948 when two spitfires bombed Tel Aviv. Yes, Israel may have started the 56 war in response to Egyptian nationalization of the Suez Canal and due to Allied pressure. In 67 Israel carried out the first strike because they had to. Nasser as well as Jordan and Syria rallied troups along their borders, Nassar did block straits of tiran and was continuously threatening Israel.
There is a tendency to play down the Arab and Iranian threat as if to suggest that the hateful content against Jews or Israel is not really something to take seriously or literally. That somehow it is the cry of a wounded victim, whilst any peaceful overture from Israel is to be perceived as a devious trick and never to be trusted. No. Hate is hate and it does not derive from a wound though it is camouflaged to appear so much of the time. The proof is the uhistory of unprovoked hatred over time.
You praise Ahmedinejad with faint damns. "it's juvenile" "it's childish", "they don't mean it" "It's political" "It's an over reaction"... Pull the other one Phooey. When an anti semite says he wants to kill Jews, this is one lesson we accept. It is totally unacceptable from him, from Hamas , from Abbas and whoever. Period.
@MsZeitgeist85 So you first claim that the blockade never occurred. Now you say that it occurred for only a week. The act was intended to provoke war. Israel said previously that closing the straits would be considered an act of war. In addition the blockade violated UN agreements. Nassar made pacts with the armies of other local warring nations. And here are some quotes of Nassar prior to the war: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
Again some truth Phooey regarding some israelis trying to nurture an alternative leadership for the Palestinians, but Arafat changed his tune for a while at least and a greater mistake of bringing him back was made. Hamas is in power in Gaza and has the power to make the peace. Because of its attachment to Muslim Brotherhood ideals and its nihilistic outlook , it just won't. and therefore is a problem backed by Iran.
Phooey: "Is any Arab country treating its Jewish population the way Israel treats Palestinians in occupied territories?" Not really, since most have left Arab countries largely through persecution. Whilst 20% of Israel's population are Arab. I agree there is an unacceptable level of anti-Arab feeling, but it cannot be compared. You do not find it in the daily press, the news items like you do daily in the Arab world about Jews. This equivalence argument fails Phooey.
@xerocada1 Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. JERUSALEM as in JEWISH. ISRAEL is the home land of the Jewish people. Everyone else is either a guest, squatter or trespasser.
Damn Gold is so one sided its just crazy...according to him every problems in Palestine/Israel conflict must be blamed only on palestinians.Like if jews were only victims in this conflict...lol and yet he dares saying that Goldstone is one sided
@MsZeitgeist85 Explain those quotes first please. And why did Nasser expel the UN from Sinai while signing pacts with neighboring Arab nations while amassing large amount of troops on the border with Israel? More: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map" - Cario state radio "Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." - pres of iraq
Some of this stuff is quoted out of Goldstone and is proving problematic. I don't believe Israel deliberately teargets civilians. All the Arabs have to do is recognise Israel's right to exist and to make peace and many problems in that region can start to be resolved. I agree that an arbiter respected by all sides should play a part in future discussion. Finally I have nothing further to add to this thread.. I wish you well.
This program, and others like the one a few years ago inviting President Carter to discuss his controversial book, are important and courageous actions from the Brandeis University community are are to be applauded.
the interruptions are terrible impossible to follow
Phooey, read "Under a mushrrom cloud" by Ottolenghi for a more worrying scenario that now is forseeable for anyone with concerns about the future. What he says is something to reflect on.
I'd like to say one thing more. The people of Gaza benefitted considerably during periods of calm when they often came to Israel to work and to sell produce on a regular daily basis, In the 1990s, when there was great hope ON BOTH SIDES, that peace might finally actually materialise, that relations between Arab and Jew were warm and open across the Middle East. The breakdown in peace talks and the failure to revive them has caused untold misery and has allowed for extremism to dictate.
my question to judge Goldstone: you talked about deliberate damage done to civilians and civilian structures, can you show me a war fought in urban areas in which such events did not occur? iI doubt it.
that brings me to wonder if a similar investigation was performed on any other conflict over the last, say, 70 years, would it not have found all the parties involved accused of war crimes? and this would include countries such as the UK, Germany, France and... the USA.
@jonahfox Why would they give back the land? Because it is illegal to aqurie land by war in the modern era. There was only 1 time when this happened. Do you know what time it was?
It might be useful for you to take a look at Ross Kemp's quite revealing 2 part documentary on Gaza and Israel. It's done with some empathy for the 2 sides. Perhaps we can discuss this another time. Also Tim Collins short 9 minute film is revealing too about Gaza. What I appreciated about the 2 films was that they did not emote as much film footage does. As regards to democracy, the kind of election that it was was something out of a nightmare: the sort where 51% vote to destroy the other 49%!
I have to study it more, but at this moment I wonder: Why does the Goldstone report suspiciously whiff of being a Straw-man?
"Before the war, Sadat offered peace in exchange for a full withdrawal to the 67 borders and just settlement of the Palestinian refugee crisis.... Israel refused". There is some truth Phooey in what you say on this point and indeed it was not believed by Israel but this was more of an admitted mistake rather than a plan to construct settlements regardless. Once Sadat clarified further his intentions regarding peace and recognition there was no going back and settlements were removed.
Regarding Chinkin, it is unfortunate they didn't remove her, but I would be interested to know what effect she had on the gathering of evidence. If one person is biased in a large group of unbiased, then it may not have mattered. If Isreal had worked with Goldstone, maybe they could have removed or marginalized her role. Isreal chose not to do so. Also, I believe that her remarks deal with the right to use force, which the goldstone report did not address
"The recent threats from Syria and the Hezbollah are sobering and reflect a dangerous new reality." Agreed! And also their backers the Holocaust denying Iranian regime.
I strongly recommend you read the book I suggested and anther: The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones published in the 1980s but whose description of Arab Society gives ssome detailed reasoning as to why it has been so hard to bridge the gap.
contd. In this case, the moral principle that i think is worth following is the principle of distinction between noncomabtants and combatants in war, and the principle or proportionality. Another one is transparent inquiries into whether the aforementioned principles are being followed. I then inquire as to whether my state and its allies are living up to these principles. If they are not, I criticize them. Now do you see why I think the crimes of other states are irrelevant?
@MsZeitgeist85 We were talking about Egypt not Palestinians. We cant talk about all issues at once. Plan Dalet did not have anything to do with Egyptian acts of war. Egypt did start the war on May 15th, the day after Israel declared its independence.
My post was for bobpulga, but I would be glad to flesh out the point a bit. The moral principle that must be followed in order to enforce the principles of distinction/proportionality is a commitment to transparent government processes (or else how is the citizenry to know when disproportionate force is used?). As Goldstone pointed out, 10 months had past while the military was investigating itself in secret. I object to that b/c I share some responsibility for what happened as a US taxpayer.
If you don't accept the report, that's fine. The proper way to respond though is for Israel to do it's own investigation, with non military independent officials doing their work out in the open (like Goldstone did, for all to see). So if you don't accept Goldstone's findings, fine, just dispute them with your own evidence (or put pressure on Israel to do so, if you live there or live in the US.
It was not a trial. It was a fact finding mission, in which Goldstone gave his opinion as to whether international law had been violated. Of course it is not conclusive that crimes have been committed (but use common sense, it is likely they did on both sides). That is why Goldstone's main goal was to induce Hamas and Israel to conduct open and fair inquiries into the matter before any intl criminal trial is even recommended.
@nevskixx You are missing my point. I would never suggest that the Gaza and Iraqi invasions were "equivalent." I was trying to make a simple ethical point. Israelis and Americans are responsible for the predictable consequences of their own actions, not for the predictable consequences of other countries' actions. Bobpulga was trying to evade the issue of Israel's disproportionate use of force by pointing to Sri Lanka's actions. Making that move is morally bankrupt.
@MsZeitgeist85 Oh yeah, the straits were blocked from May 23rd until the war started. Which is only a little over a week anyways.. lol. And I dont know where you got the figure of 5 percent but Israel's primary energy supply came through the gulf which is of vital importance for any country.
@jonahfox Yes drug smuggling, look it up. In the early 60s Israel was smuggling drugs into Egypt and they admitted that they were printing millions of dollars of counterfid Egyptian money to cause hyperinflation in Egypt's economy in the early 60s. This did alot of damage to Egypt's economy.
Hello. Sorry it took me so long to respond. Life got in the way... I have no doubt you are a sincere person, but i remain unpersuaded by your posts. I think we just approach moral issues differently. To decide whether an action is right or wrong, I apply a simple analysis. I first look at what i'm responsible for (the actions of my state [US], and its allies [Israel]), I then see whether their actions conflict with a moral principle that I think is worth following.
@MsZeitgeist85 The only thing I could find was an article by somebody with zero citations that quoted an unnamed former colonel who said that Israel pushed drugs on Egyptian soldiers. Assuming this is true I don't understand why this would have any effect on Egypt's economy. It would only make the soldiers lazier than they already were. And again why would Israel give back the Sinai in the late 70s for peace? They could have easily kept it.
Of course for him building illegal settlements in occupied territories especially in east Jer and clearly making as much settlements as possible to make a palestine state impossible was not a motive for Hamas rockets on Israel
Don't get me wrong Phooey, I believe that conditions in Gaza are far from acceptable for ordinary folk. I do not hate Palestinians and hope that they too will have a viable state, but not one that calls for Israel's end. I detest racism and worry where the hatred will lead. It's not as simple as you make out.
@MsZeitgeist85 I don't understand what anything you said in this post has to do with whether or not Egypt started the war. Nassar was more than just talk. Like I said before, amassing the troops, kicking out the UN, blocking the strait with full knowledge that it would be considered an act of war and making pacts with other aggressive nations who were making the same threats that Nassar was. It's pretty clear.
I think you will find that if put to a UN vote today there would be a sizeable number of states who would vote Israel off the map phooey. Israel declared itself a state along partition lines offered in 1947, which the Arabs rejected. In 1948, Jordan in fact acquired territory including East Jerusalem. No one at the time supported Israel on that one.
Do you dispute any of the allegations in the Goldstone Report? All you should care about is what's true, whether you are responsible for harming someone, and if you are, you should try to stop it. The crime of others are irrelevant in this basic moral analysis. Would you have accepted Saddman Hussein's argument that his attack against Kuwait should be overlooked because of the crimes of the Serbs in Bosnia?
@drainey " transparent inquiries" : be more specific.
@MsZeitgeist85 Even Egypt admitted that they blocked the straits of tiran. A pre-emptive strike was the only chance that Israel had to survive.
Israel has been accused of using "disproprtionate force" and therefore by inference unjustifiable force .Since no one has questioned proprtionality of force in any other example except in the case of Israel, it is this that offends. But indeed the evidence points in an opposite direction:Colonel Richard Kemp and Colonel Tim Collins, both experts on warfare, seem to think that Israel minimised civilian casualties which inevitably occurs, in war, and that they acted ethically as a whole.
As you rightly point out, phooey108 it is morally irresponsible and thuggish . However it is quite clear to most decent people that the reason that it is , is because underlying Holocaust denial is a regret and desire to will it to happen again. Isn't such an action not overwhelmingly calculated and political? Would it not be simpler to retract the statements and apologise in order to defuse the "hysteria" ?
The question of " legal" borders is always invoked as an argument , whatever period in Israel's existence, as Israel never being within its proper borders as a means to deny it any borders at all. Clearly some borders have defined within the framework of agreements Israel has had with Egypt and with Jordan for example, but the rest is open to discussion and to be decided once the parties to the conflict agree to resolve it phooey.
@jonahfox Mosche Dyane said that if Israel would have placed the UN forces on their side in 67 the war could have been avoided.
Nassar in the 50s and 60s was like Ahmadenajad in Iran. Alot of talk and bluster but no action.
There are quotes from Ehud Barack that tell more than Nassar. Like "If I was born a Palestinian I would have joined a terrorist group" Or from Sharone where he said " If I was Arrafat I would never make peace with Israel."
@MsZeitgeist85 Explain these quotes from Nasser just before the war: "we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." “We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948" He also expelled the UN from the Sinai, why would he do this?
Firstly Shlomo ben Ami is not MY foreign minister. You also misrepresent what he said. He did say about camp david that it would not have been acceptable but he also said that what Arafat was offered at Taba WAS, and the response he gave was to withdraw without making a counter proposal. There are a conflicting number of reasons that others have given but it had much to do with personal vanity . As for no second holocausts, your words do not reassure everyone.
" some of Israel's security issues are self generated problems."
At least there is always some nuanced discussion. Note of course he said "some" and not "all". As for hatred, this has remained for a very very long time. Antisemitism is disgustingly rife in the Arab World and is largely overlooked by the West and the political left who often engage in antisemitic discourse : the extreme right in plain antisemitism. That said, racism has proliferated generally and not because of Cast Lead.
Goldstone has certainly had to eat his words, but at what a cost. His 500 pages are seriously now being viewed as a calumny. In short he now concludes that Israeli policy was not one of deliberate targeting of civilians, something that will be news to no one who follows the truth, but I worry about the others . To defend their beliefs, they must assume even crazier arguments or withdraw and concede that their libellous game is over. I fear that reason will not prevail.
The Arab world's human rights record and Iran's record is deplorable phooey-that's very true. Name me a single country that has regard for the welfare of its citizens in that region and you will understand that when Hamas says it is not extremist as you say so few of us really can believe it.
And i would not trust any country especially not mine to be impartial in a public self investigation and alot less if its being closed doors.And to think or say that Jews amongs all ppls have the integrity to fairly investigate themselves is so arrogant and
pretentious...thats a shame
Overtures? Well look what happened in 2000! Nothing. Who's to blame? depends which account you believe? But most blame Arafat
@MsZeitgeist85 No, Plan Dalet has nothing to do with Egypt's entry into the war. Egypt entered the war on May 15th 1948 when two spitfires bombed Tel Aviv. Yes, Israel may have started the 56 war in response to Egyptian nationalization of the Suez Canal and due to Allied pressure. In 67 Israel carried out the first strike because they had to. Nasser as well as Jordan and Syria rallied troups along their borders, Nassar did block straits of tiran and was continuously threatening Israel.
@MagicKirin Where is your proof of that? Carter created peace between Egypt and Israel after Israel started 3 wars with them.
There is a tendency to play down the Arab and Iranian threat as if to suggest that the hateful content against Jews or Israel is not really something to take seriously or literally. That somehow it is the cry of a wounded victim, whilst any peaceful overture from Israel is to be perceived as a devious trick and never to be trusted. No. Hate is hate and it does not derive from a wound though it is camouflaged to appear so much of the time. The proof is the uhistory of unprovoked hatred over time.
You praise Ahmedinejad with faint damns. "it's juvenile" "it's childish", "they don't mean it" "It's political" "It's an over reaction"... Pull the other one Phooey. When an anti semite says he wants to kill Jews, this is one lesson we accept. It is totally unacceptable from him, from Hamas , from Abbas and whoever. Period.
And according to the majority of Arabs, isn't all of israel supposed to be illegal phooey?
@MsZeitgeist85 So you first claim that the blockade never occurred. Now you say that it occurred for only a week. The act was intended to provoke war. Israel said previously that closing the straits would be considered an act of war. In addition the blockade violated UN agreements. Nassar made pacts with the armies of other local warring nations. And here are some quotes of Nassar prior to the war:
"Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
Again some truth Phooey regarding some israelis trying to nurture an alternative leadership for the Palestinians, but Arafat changed his tune for a while at least and a greater mistake of bringing him back was made. Hamas is in power in Gaza and has the power to make the peace. Because of its attachment to Muslim Brotherhood ideals and its nihilistic outlook , it just won't. and therefore is a problem backed by Iran.
The clinching line of this clip marked by Goldstone is: "We've not listened to Israel's side of the events" at 35:50.
Phooey: "Is any Arab country treating its Jewish population the way Israel treats Palestinians in occupied territories?"
Not really, since most have left Arab countries largely through persecution. Whilst 20% of Israel's population are Arab. I agree there is an unacceptable level of anti-Arab feeling, but it cannot be compared. You do not find it in the daily press, the news items like you do daily in the Arab world about Jews. This equivalence argument fails Phooey.
@xerocada1 Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. JERUSALEM as in JEWISH. ISRAEL is the home land of the Jewish people. Everyone else is either a guest, squatter or trespasser.
Damn Gold is so one sided its just crazy...according to him every problems in Palestine/Israel conflict must be blamed only on palestinians.Like if jews were only victims in this conflict...lol and yet he dares saying that Goldstone is one sided
@MsZeitgeist85 Is that a joke, Egypt started every war. Read some history, cmon.
@MsZeitgeist85 Explain those quotes first please. And why did Nasser expel the UN from Sinai while signing pacts with neighboring Arab nations while amassing large amount of troops on the border with Israel?
More:
"The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map" - Cario state radio
"Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." - pres of iraq
..and israel is not "butchering" Palestinians either!!
@MsZeitgeist85
Cater is a racist and so is Demond Tutu
omg shut him up, give him a meddle for most unconvincing liar ever.
Dore Gold is about as sleazy as it gets.
Some of this stuff is quoted out of Goldstone and is proving problematic. I don't believe Israel deliberately teargets civilians. All the Arabs have to do is recognise Israel's right to exist and to make peace and many problems in that region can start to be resolved. I agree that an arbiter respected by all sides should play a part in future discussion. Finally I have nothing further to add to this thread.. I wish you well.
Goldstone, is Jewish only in his own imagination.