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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Is the Hispano Aviación HA-1112 better than the Messerschmitt Bf-109.
Comparing the HA-1112-M4L aka Bf-109 G-12 versus the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 in Point of Performance, Sound and apperance. Its Daimler Benz DB 605 vs. Rolls Royce Merlin 500-45 time.
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G-6 gets my vote, it's my favourite variant. Such a beautiful plane.
it is. thanks watching Fabiana
@@Warbirds
My pleasure :)
Just curious, do you prefer the Merlin?
That is a post war civil transport Merlin 500, it is a two speed single stage supercharger engine and would not be used in a high altitude WW2 fighter, it would be an improvement over the Spitfire Mk V engine and would be more equivalent to the FW 190A’s 42 litre (with inferior fuel) BMW radial.
The DB601/5 109F/G’s big prop spinner looks more integrated with the engine cowling than does a Merlin Spitfire’s smaller spinner and pigeon chest caused by its Merlin’s high reduction gear output. The smaller spinner Merlin HA-1112 Buchon is also so affected.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 it was planned for ground attack
The Merlin-powered 109s appeared in the Battle of Britain movie.
yes and you have the merlin sound
G6 is very sleek looking and has a rough growl to the engine. Beautiful aircraft
The climb rate of the Merlin powered 109's is astounding. For Merlin powered Spanish 109 variants HA-1112-M1L rate of climb was 5,577 ft/min. The F8F Bearcat is 4,465 ft/min. This makes the Merlin powered 109's probably the fastest climbing piston engine fighter of all World War II designs.
I'm curious about the source of that information. For me is hard to believe the Buchón could outclimb a 109-K (essentially the same plane, but with extra 200hp and, I think, more streamlined body). Same with the late Griffon Spitfires (bigger and heavier, but far more powerful).
nah
The DB engined 109 just looks right.
Nice video again guys 👍
Thanks mate
The Spanish installation looks semi P-40 disgusting, look at the similar P-51 carb intake layout, very elegant (but without the 109 style nose mounted oil cooler). The Spitfire and P-51 used combined elements cooling radiators.
During the war, a Daimler 601 engine was put on a captured Spitfire airframe and it had improved performance.
Where did you get that from? The two engines are so different it would be near impossible. Look at the mods they had to make to fit the Griffon to the Spitfire and the DB is a big engine like the Griffon
Do you have any source for this ?
The picture of the DB powered Spitfire was in a small soft covered book called Spitfire. It is from the 60's. It gave a small description.
@@jonbutzfiscina1307 Did a search. Apparantly the Germans did it .Spifire Vb EN 830 ,captured and re engined with a DB 605.
No performance details but at 1700 hp and 37 litres it would have been bigger and more powerful than the Vb`s single stage 26 litre Merlin.
Destroyed in a USAAF raid.
@@billycaspersghost7528, I think DB-605 was "only" 34-35 litres
I would love to see a replica of a K-4 with an original DB-605 in it. But the original G-6 is nice too.
Thx
The G 6 all day long but i would never complain about any of them i love them all
I Love the Merlin aswell
The merlin engine one sounds like a spitfire
same engine yes
IIRC the Merlin 500 series used single point fuel injection straight into the eye of the supercharger impeller which increased volumetric efficiency and would also allow inverted flight. The Merlin myth about not being able to fly inverted only affected the early wartime Merlins.
Spitfire needed American fuel to compete with bf109s other than that spitfires are low performance
The problem was not inverted flight, but direct dive (wich created negative G)
The clean nose lines and distinctive DB-605 roar and whistle are my option for Me-109 but thanks for all Buchons that donated their airframes to put these flying machines on the air again !
Yes Indeed
Who felt nostalgia after seeing these fly?
I like listening to Bach music. And then there is this!
The V12 Orchestra ?
I likes em' all. Dang, those engines sound, tough, beefy, and bad-to-the bone. Im glad you gents are keeping these beauties alive and flying. Not many people get a chance to see some really awesome aircraft. 1 day I would hope to see a stuka, I understand they are rare, but its nice to dream. Keep up the good work, gents!
The difference between those two fuel systems is very noticeable: At the beginning of the video, the Merlin carburetted Bouchon (as ALL carburetted Merlins) displays a little struggle at starting, and throws a lot of smoke, and then requires some engine warming to smooth the running.
Compare that to the immediate, fast and clean start of the Daimler Fuel Injected engine at 1:07... Even with the crude mechanical fuel injection, the engine starts instantly and cleanly! The Merlin is a great engine, but the Fuel Injection of the Daimler is definitely superior in all respects to a carburetor, regardless of its improvements and adaptations.
At every video that shows the Daimler Benz engine at starting, the difference is obvious.
@Alfredo Márquez ...You are talking nonsense and obviously haven't had much experience seeing these engines start.
Both are capable of a clean start both are injected. The term carburettor was the name used for early throttle body injection during that period, It is NOT a carburettor. Do some research please!
The Merlin’s (minimal venturi) up-draught pressure carburettor is not inferior in all aspects, the fuel evaporation helped deliver the colder denser charge that made the smaller Merlin outperform the DBs. Late war water and water-methanol injection was an attempt to increase the fuel injection engine’s aspiration by cooling the fuel-less supercharger output.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 The Merlin's Pressure carburetor by Bendix, available only after the Battle of Britain of course, achieved most of the latent heat from evaporation in the carburetors body and a short distance afterward... In contrast, the fuel injection of the Daimler Benz kept the spray evaporating further into the engine. Only stubborn carbureted engine fans still believe it is "superior"... Ha Ha! Be happy believing that. Even the relatively crude mechanical injection on the DB was an improvement. Speaking with truth, the Miss Tilly Orifice restrictor was a clever ans simple stopgap measure, and the Bendix so so fix, but the Fuel Injection WAS the Future. Why has it been used on 99%+ on modern engines? At full open throttle, the carburetor Ventury still has to cause some Pressure drop in order to draw fuel. The Injection system doen't, as the fuel is atomized by pressure as the fuel is fed by force, not relative vacuum. Thus there is less mixture restriction.
Refer to the several excelent Greg's Videos on aircraft engines for a truly accurate comparison, far from fanboys exaggerations.
@@Slaktrax Not at all. The pressure carburetor is installed after the Supercharger, thus the stream is already at almost manifold pressure, but is still a carburetor and not an injection system, don't fantasize please!
@@alfredomarquez9777 The pressure carburettor only has a small venturi for sensing, fuel is delivered by a precision fuel pump, the Merlin carburettor is fitted before the supercharger. Good diagrams are not hard to find.
Greg is good but he is just as fallible as any of us, his ATPL is a very respectable qualification but I doubt if has spent much time on large piston engines.
Some of us are qualified to offer a knowledgeable view.
AFAIK, the Messers came to Spain without engines because the spanish government did'nt buy them. From the start, the plan was a spanish version of the Bf-109 with a local built engine.
Original mit DB601/605 ist und bleibt original und auch mein Favorit....💪
Awesome! One of my favorites! I've got a nice model of a 109. I also just finished a model of a 110 earlier this week. I also have a Ju88 that I should try to get together.
Awesome keep it on
Great video. The fuel injected Benz engine has to be the one for me. Sorry Rolls Royce 👌🏴
Hehe
The HA--1112-M4L flew 10 years later with a marginally better speed.
Outstandind video! Beautiful. Danke sehr.
That open frame glider in the hanger looks like a lot of fun. Wonder what the pilot weight limit is :-))
The Sound of Yesterday.....
DB-605 all day every day, and twice on Sunday. Not knocking the Merlin, it's a fine well engineered engine, but despite the power difference, the DB-605 is just better, and it fits the BF-109 better. The Merlin in a 109 just feels wrong and weird.
Great video as always.
For me it's the DB 605 anytime. Besides, the later DB 605D of the K-4 and G-10 was much more powerful than the Merlin anyway...
And an airframe fitted with an engine it was not designed for always looks ugly...
Hehe yes thanks watching
The 109 was designed for a smaller engine, look at the pics of 109B and Ds.
With a much bigger cooler below that engine. Strangely enough, those early versions didn't look as good as the later F and G models...
Andreas Timper They didn’t have wing radiators.
Indeed.
Quick question, if you don't mind, the back of the canopy the windows are at an unusual angle? Is this bird also considered to be an "observation" aircraft? The Buchon?
I also don’t know the reason
I have to go with the DB 605 nothing bets the original Aircraft!! But the RR powered one is one great sounding engine as well!!
Both engines are very good sounding
My understanding is that German aviation gas had a much lower octane rating. The engines couldn't be boosted to as high a manifold pressure as Allied engines running with 100-octane American fuel (later increased to 110/140). Even so, the methanol-water or nitrous injection systems allowed parity during engagements.
I would choose the original Bf-109G with the 605 DB engine.
Yes but less power
@@Warbirds That's true, but I do not mind. Thanks.
@@Warbirds less power who cares better to have maneuverability and benz can run on 87 vs Merlin needing 150 octane to actually compete against a 109
G-6 is better, but I think the G-12 is unique one in the world with two seats.
Yes i Love the G6
@@Warbirds I'm guessing the two seat buchon is the only "Messerscmidt" a passenger or second pilot can fly in? Is there dual controls enough for the back seat to completky fly the Buchon?
Buchon may be faster than the G6 but that change on the engine hurted quite well the handling of the plane. By the way you have a lot of variants faster than the Buchon like the G6 AS, AM with Mw50, G 10 and K
Fuel injection. No question 109 great airplane.
The Buchon may be faster but the 109G-6 is original and more valuable
Actually, I'm not so sure about the Buchon Being faster. At least when compared with later G-6 versions fitted with MW-50 water-methanol boost. Anyway, I've always thought G-6 was seriously underrated.
At what point does the which is better? Question get answered ?
What is the 28 and 17 MS in the red captions about, is it initial climb rate?
Yes sorry rate oder climb.
Emil model with the merlin
I love the me 109buchon and the Russian yak3
I quote test pilot David Southwood. When in a dive with the Buchon you would always hit a brick wall and not be able to go any faster but not in the Daimler Benz 109 because it of it being much sleeker.
Aerodynamics
@@Warbirds roger that
The Israeli Air force apparently started with 4 Czech postwar built Me-109. How ironic the history can be. At that time Czechoslovakia was the only country willing to sell arms to Israelis who started to expand their living space in a newly created Israel. They put a different engine in them instead of the original. It would be interesting to know the details of that hacked up me-109.
Apparently those 4 planes created enough surpise and confusion to stop the whole Arab army not expecting Israeli Airforce.
I remember reading somewhere the Czech Messers were a nightmare to fly because of the huge torque of the Jumo 211 engine and big propeller
@@rodrigorincongarcia771 Very likely. There was a shortage of engines for German army at the end of war and the supply was cut completely after its end. Israelis called it "messer-shit" apparently. But better 4 of those than nothing :)
I put this post on Facebook last summer, and just got a reply. Glynne Jones
Hello, a bit of a long shot. I am just outside Lampeter SA48 8HY. On Saturday at around mid day and yesterday mid afternoon, a rather unusual plane flew over here. It looked liks a ww2 single engine fighter, dark colour with a yellow tail fin. wing shape looked like a ME 109. Headed NNE on Sat and opposite dir sunday. at about 2,3000 ft. I'm dying to know what it was. any ideas?
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Joel Whitaker
Glynne Jones
apologies only just seen your post. It was a Hispano Buchon, which is a reproduction Bf109.
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Glynne Jones
Joel Whitaker
Thank you. A mystery is solved. Any idea where it was going to, or coming from and where is it based at ?
Duxford has some Oneseater. This Bf109 G-12 with Merlin Engine is now in Manching / Germany
Ironically, the Germans captured a Spitfire with a damaged engine and replaced it with the DB and it was better than either the Spit, or the BF-109.
You got a source ?
@@Warbirds Mark Felton made a short doc about it, including footage: th-cam.com/video/5s2YabkzSrg/w-d-xo.html
The text scrolling by at high speed and the background image panning very fast in the opposite direction really gave me a headache in this video and frankly went on for much too long. Please don't use high speed scrolling text.
As for the point of the video itself, I much prefer the G6. The nose is tidier and this is after all, how the plane would have looked during the war.
Oh im sorry
Buchon all the way.
For me, hands down the "G". You can't beat the original. The sound of the DB, the reliability of the DB, the look of 109. Plus {IMHO} only the Spitfire has the ability to relay and properly play the soul sound of the Merlin.
bob dyer You know that the DB 605 was only reliable enough? It stretched every PS out of the DB 601 and had such outrageous valve timing that it was on the verge of not running at all. It would not have been accepted in peacetime.
Of course the Buchon is better than a German-built 109.
It's got a Merlin engine.
Still obsolete in the age of the early jets.
Yeah, stop spreading urban legends, please. Engines, propellers, weaponry, even the tail fins, weren't ever meant to be suplied by Germany because Spain always had in mind using their own engine setting. All those things weren't missing, they just never meant to be in the very first place.
oh whats your source of this Info ?
A Buchon in Luftwaffe markings is simply childish.
i´ll stick to our buchon, hope to see one fliying one day in spanish colors and withouth that make up like rounded nosecone, 3 bladed propellers, or fake cowl machineguns to make it look like a 109....
That would be interesting
@@Warbirds well, lets say that the original with the P-40 like nose is a lot more slick and elegant than those wannabe gustavs IMHO, and the original two seaters are a lot more beautifull than that "bird cage" cockpit one that is flying today (even if i know it was because safety regulations and what not)
picoletor The two seater triangular panel V frame canopies were the original WW2 design.
it's not LIKE a 109. It is a 109. Different nose? well, same could be said about 109 E compared to B, C, D versions, or F compared to B,C,D,E versions. No to speak of planes with inline engines in some versions and radil engines in others (FW-190, Tempest...).
To bad the text is in such awful low contrast colors so you can’t read it half the time
Buchon is the Jimmy hill of 109s
BF 109 "Buchón" Made in Spain.
Yes
Better to die in a Beauty than in an Ugly.
LOL
Merlin engines all the way
They are Smooth
@@Warbirds and powerfull
And what about the bf 109 k4 version it was at least good than this buchon....
People need to stop painting buchons in luftwaffe paint scheme..
Leistung hin oder her , in einer ME 109 sieht ein stehender V12 Motor einfach nicht schön aus , wenn er hängend eingebaut wäre wäre es noch akzeptabel , am schönsten ist immer original , also hängender DB , meine Meinung dazu .
Spanish Buchon
Warthunder incluye el ha 1112 buchón en. Tu juego
I'd go with the p47 and just ram into them and then fly home.....thats right "fly home" because it's a p47
Roleplayers for Movies
Hey the writing sucks it moves too fast and the colour has difficult contrast and is hard to read.
Get some Glasses old boy
held un tire-bouchon custom
are the spanish better.......
DB 605 Sounds evil
yes Luftwaffe Evil
DEUTSCHLAND ✴🎄⚔🇩🇪⚔🎄✴
Merkel Land
@@Warbirds 😥 Wir werden das ändern💪🌟⚡⚡🌟
The Buchon doesn't look or sound right. Nope. I'm a Rolls Royce Merlin fan but sorry, that's not a BF 109. It's a travesty. The Merlin sounds ugly and makes the cowl looks wrong in the BF 109.
I like the Merlin ... in the Mustang
With better fuel (the Third Reich had poor quality aviation spirit) the DB605 would be vastly superior to the Merlin.