Why I Finally Quit Wing Chun
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มิ.ย. 2021
- This is the story of why I quit Wing Chun.
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Welcome to the Martial Arts Journey TH-cam channel!
My name is Rokas. I'm a Lithuanian guy who trained Aikido for 14 years, 7 of them running a professional Aikido Dojo until eventually I realized that Aikido does not live up to what it promises.
Lead by this realization I decided to make a daring step to close my Aikido Dojo and move to Portland, Oregon for six months to start training MMA at the famous Straight Blast Gym Headquarters under head coach Matt Thornton.
After six months intensive training I had my first amateur MMA fight after which I moved back to Lithuania. During all of this time I am documenting my experience through my TH-cam channel called "Martial Arts Journey".
Now I am slowly setting up plans to continue training MMA under quality guidance and getting ready for my next MMA fight as I further document and share my journey and discoveries.
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#WingChun #KungFu #MartialArts - กีฬา
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"Being a good human being is more important than being a good martial artist," ABSOLUTELY!
th-cam.com/video/aOMkqYNFVDs/w-d-xo.html
Lol is it? Looking back I’d rather have had Mike Tyson be the absolute savage that he was and existed than being a soft spoken good human.
That's my path ←(>▽
@@cryptocaesar8972 Tell that to his rape victims’ faces, you absolute edgelord.
Yes, and if you do not use your martial art training to make your self a better person, then your martial art training will make you a worse person.
You lied to me. You said I wouldn't believe why you quit, but I absolutely believe this.
🤣👌
@PaMuShin Yes you must go to the mountain top and then into the grottos. Make cryptic movements that defy comprehension. How he move next? We cannot know because he is in the becomingness and constantly changing. Love solitude and solitude and solitude will love you. Shed the husk of humanity to become a superior being.
This is a problem with most martial art schools across the world. More concerned with politics than anything.
It's a people thing. It only takes one politician on a group to turn something collaborative into something competitive. sad truth of it all
Except that it’s so much less toxic in the practical martial arts world
When u aren’t live drilling u can’t decide who knows what they are talking about and who is making up bullshit
That’s the TKD community in the philippines right now
@@kermit1211 TKD??
@@silver_tongue9644 Taekwondo. Way of the foot and fist.
I've come to appreciate my teacher. He teaches Kung Fu buuuuuut he emphasized full contact sparring. He finds politics stupid and just cuts the foreplay, which I am more than appreciative of
Its not like Chinese soap opera experience anymore tho😂
@@epic-zc3oo lol break it down for me
Ah damn, I love foreplay.
I had the same experience. In our 'exams' we had to spar against 7 opponents "the street is not fair, to teach you to how to fight fair is not training you for the street."
Who is your sifu if you don't mind me asking?
His story actually surprised me. I thought he'd go onto say how he found it wasn't useful in fighting on the street or in mma but instead it was just bad community. Nobody can blame you for that! I wouldn't continue anything no matter how much I loved it if I was surrounded by a bad community, It just becomes very unhealthy and toxic to you.
True, and that goes with anything not necesarily including martial arts
For me it shows that his main focus wasn't to become a top martial artist, it was a social activity. I've trained with people I detested, simply to improve my skills.
@@elizajames477 Yeah. Even now, it's all about reaching out to all sorts of different people, forming bonds, and making friends. Personally I like how he reaches out to all sorts of martial artists and gives them the time of day, and allows them to show what they have to offer
"Being a great human being is more important than being a great martial artist" Damn...I think we found the thesis statement for a lot of your videos. Beautifully said! Thank you
I had a similar experience when I moved to a new city and found a new Lau Gar school. They were utterly offended that my previous instructor emphasised sparring, padwork, didn't use Chinese commands for everything and allowed headkicks, claiming that they had drifted from the core organisation and had become impure. All I thought was well their classes are more fun and they are far better fighters so..enjoy being pure, so long!
I am so tired of kung fu looking like a museum display.... its alive and needs to be treated like it.
@@arbogast4950 Too much art, not enough martial.
I saw the same comparing Hung Gar schools and lineages. Allthough I'm absolutely fine with mine even some in our school seem to waste time in those bullshit arguments about "that one lineage which is worse than ours because of some bullshit that happened in the early 1900's". I mean we spar a lot and still use the traditional forms to practice certain things and actually win a lot of medals be it in form competitions or full contact matches and still some people can't just be happy with us showing on tournaments that we have skill.
I'd rather make friends with other styles and lineages than ever caring about such crap. At the very least those sentiments are getting lesser and lesser every day and only a few people remain a little more stubborn.
Always blows my mind that someone wouldn't do sparring. My Taekwondo school at least had weekly sparring full contact.
Lmao I had a similar experience with my former karate club. You see, our sessions were put on an abrupt stop when the lockdowns hit and even after that our club took a while to reopen so what I did was cross train in kickboxing and BJJ while it was still closed. When we got together again and I told them about it they all looked at me like a heretic and told me modern methods like hitting the heavy bag and sparring were ineffective and practicing katas are the way to go 🤣
This is interesting. I definitely noticed this in Taekwondo, WT doesn't like ITF doesn't like ATA etc. My experience in Wing Chun has been very different. My Sifu is very well respected, but he and my Sigung always encouraged looking up videos online and if you're traveling, meeting up with a different instructor and training. They even encourage during sparring to mix in moves from other styles. Sorry to hear that your experience wasn't the same.
During my Taekwondo years, I noticed the hypocrisy between ATA, WTF, ITF, etc. It felt more like club rivalries competing on who had the most kids enrolled. For every step to advance it was all about money, money, and more money. I was no better a martial artist just because I had obtained a black belt. I still got beaten in the MMA rings. Even met some females who were tougher fighters in Krav Maga, Kempo, or Muay Tai. If you focus on point sparring you will never be a realistic martial artist.
My southern mantis was very much like that as well. After he left the area, I looked at similar styles but found that it wasn't the style but the actual fight experience of the instructor as well as their attitudes and open-mindedness. Sadly, instructors like the one you describe are definitely in the minority when it comes to Chinese schools.
There was a lot of this kind of talk in my old Karate school though mostly the accusations were that everyone else watered their training down to make it more palatable for money but we were the real school- those schools said the same about us. In retrospect not a single one of those schools used real pushups, emphasized regular sparring, diet, or any kind of organized workouts. That was before the UFC so there was no clinch work or ground work. I am still angry with myself for not seeing through it earlier
took tae kwon do once, instructors had us spar after every session so it was drill then spar with grappling. Brown belt instructor loved to show us other techniques from other martial arts, then again it was called safe kids so his intention was to show ways to defend yourself, unfortunately for me, and i blame myself for not keeping my nerves under control i was often the biggest. my mother didnt care for the blue belt instructors she felt they would work me up too much instead of slowing down to help me get stuff she liked the brown belt instructor because he would do that. wass eventually recommended to stop going due to my nerves threw up alot, did take somethings home with me could still at least spar with a buddy from high school later just wasnt used to getting hit in the head
@@JaneLike5 Late reply, but it is SUPER DUPER common. There tends to be many different organizations and schools of any 'style' of martial arts you can think of. Like different sects of the same religion. And 1.) People are naturally very tribal, just look at how people act even with regards to different sports teams. So easy to form an us vs them mentality. 2.) The instructors know, even if only subconsciously, that the 'others' are competitors. Thus painting everyone else in a bad light is good for the bottom line, though consciously they may also believe in what they are saying.
And yes, cult like behavior is very common in martial arts. Like I said, people are naturally very tribal so they just accept all the trash talk of others with little to no question. Especially if it's coming from someone they consider to be an authority figure. Especially when they're younger. Also, all people seek out to be accepted in some sort of group and joining in on hating on others outside their circle *really* makes them feel accepted in their chosen group. You see the same thing in life in general really, not just in martial arts. So not surprising at all really.
I trained WC for several years in China directly under Sifu Duncan Leung who together with Bruce Lee, Leung Ting etc was taught directly by Ip Man. Duncan came from a pretty rich family and was able to afford more lessons from Ip Man than the other students and some people say that he is the only one who actually got the learn "everything" from Ip Man (although thats probably BS). I also got to meet Ip Mans son a few times, Ip Chun.
One thing thats interesting about the names that you might not know unless you speak Chinese is that WT and WC are both called 咏春拳 in Chinese and in mandarin its pronounced "Yong Chun Quan" but in Cantonese which they speak in FoShan and HK where Ip Man lived at the time, its pronounced "Wing Chun". Leung Ting chose to change the English name of his style of Wing Chun to "Wing Tsun" so that it could be differentiated from the normal Wing Chun and be used as a trade mark name internationally, but in Chinese its all the same name: 咏春拳.
Anyhow, I broached this subject with Duncan because I had previously also trained the "Leung Ting" version, i.e. "WT". He told me that Leung Ting was pretty much the "black sheep" of the WC family and went off to do his own thing and money was the main motive. Maybe you've seen the video where Leung Tings disciple Emin Boztepe (who I've also met) ambushed William Cheung (another disciple of Ip Man) and threw him down on the floor to prove how WT is "superior" to WC (Emin Boztepe was a BIG GUY back then). They filmed it and used it as a bit of a marketing tool but the quality of the video is so poor that you hardly can make out anything.
Sifu Duncan showed me how the WT style is (or at least used to be) flawed with all weight on the back leg and those really fast chain punches etc that look flashy but actually does nothing in a real fight and thats mainly the WT concept: It looks flashy, they incorporate escrima and some grappling and they market it as this "really effective no BS real fighting style", and a lot of people believe it and pay a lot of money to learn it, but its not very good for actual fighting (WC is not really a good style for actual fighting either but thats another story).
All the disciples of Ip Man teach their own style of Wing Chun. William Cheungs style is called "Traditional Wing Chun" and Duncan Leungs is called "Applied Wing Chun" and has more focus on actual fighting, but it does not come close to MMA or BJJ. If you want to learn how to beat people up then Wing Chun is not the answer.
As a westerner who speak fluent Chinese and have had the opportunity to meet and talk to all these "legends" I've gotten a pretty unique insight into this whole rivalry so I thought I would just share some of it with you. All the best!
Everything you described I too experienced and it was a major turn off for a lot students including me. Only difference is that I actually stuck it out and put much of what I learned to the test by questioning much of what was taught from the very beginning, which is considered taboo to question your teachers in kung fu I know, but luckily my teacher encouraged it, and also I would spar outside the school against various styles and practitioners, not just wc from other families, but boxers, kickers, wrestlers etc which gave one quick insight to all the shortcoming but also on how to improve on them so it does work in real time which no one ever really practices in school settings. I mean fighting speed is instantaneous and spontaneous and you dont know nor can predict what your opponent's first move out of the gate is going to be. Its not at all like in in your dojo or kwoon where You're able to ask your opponent/student to throw you a punch or a kick that you know already how you gonna block for demonstration purposes. It looks great to impress onlookers but thats not real fighting or how real fighting really goes. And honestly, I feel thats whats missing in most if not all traditional martial arts. Even mma has its shortcomings too if you wanna keep it 100 because if you training for cage fighting, then your missing the dirty fighting and deadly self defence moves of traditional training that cage fighting prohibits which can also mean the difference between life and death on the streets where you only get one chance to disarm say a knife attacker or someone holding a gun to your head. Mma doesn't address any of that. But they know how to take a hit and apply multiple disciplines to take down and do hols without fear because they practice in real fight mode already which is a huge advantage to traditional who still needs to step it up in that regard. But i tell ya, if traditional were to do that, it would be tons more effective and light years ahead. They just gotta change up the way of training to match real world fight speed or mode and teach chinese arts as a form of wrestling as it was originally intended, not western boxing which even most practitioners assume from watching to many movies. Wing chun in particular is a close quarter art meant to stick to the opponent much like a wrestler does. If you were to approach and apply wc in that mindset as a wrestling art, its a game changer! Imagine running hands for a take down or hold rather than a punch, and all your hand traps used to immobilize and keep your opponent in a constant clinch while you slip into your next take down or hold. Its really in reality another sophisticated form of wrestling meant to feel your opponebts next moves and never get trapped yourself like we see many western wrestlers do staying one place just to force their way into controlling the opponent with a lot of muscle strength. In chinese wrestling, you always keep it moving and stay free! If one technique fails, you run and slip into another then another and another so as to not tire yourself out trying to force your way in which we see so many mma fighters do in the ring. In the streets you wouldn't evenn have that luxury of taking your time on the ground like that. You'd die if you do that.
This is very helpful. Years ago I'd learned some WT for a maybe 2 years but the factionalism meant learning more from books was met with disapproval. Ultimately I lost interest. I only learned what disfunctional relationships there were when I stumbled on an internet argument on a forum between a former teacher and a more student who'd split off and decided to start teaching his own classes.
I trained in a Korean martial art, Hwa Rang Do, and had some incredibly similar (and some significantly worse) experiences. Some traditional martial arts are run like cults and feed the ego of the instructor and master instead of focusing on elevating the students.
wow... I am a Korean, but I never heard aobut Hwa Rang Do as a martial art...
@@SoulbomB that already speaks for itself, i would think you know about taekwondo and hapkido
I find it so weird, because I do Goju Ryu karate now, my dad did shotokan (was national champion in my counrtry 3 times) and all the karate people are friendly with each other, go to the same seminars etc and always only say good stuff about each other.
All wing chun, wing tsun, Ving chun etc all look the same when fighting a resisting opponent. It doesn't matter what tournament, I see zig zag footwork + chain punching + straight kick + arms out. That's what you need to know to be effective. Lineages argue about the stupidest things that most of the time don't add any value.
th-cam.com/video/IRMuG62UL2c/w-d-xo.html this is how my trainer still teaches fighting. We did WingTsun drills, just to get the principle of aggression down and then did a lot of sparring. There never was any zig zag footwork, just typical fighting with very little clean "wingtsun" technique
Actually, you don't see the zig zag footwork + chain punching + straight kick when they fight a resisting opponent who doesn't play wing chun. It's what you should see, if the wing chun stuff worked according to their theory, but all you see is flailing punches.
I'm not a Wing Chun guy, but I had friends who were and they would talk about how the lineage arguments boiled down to "The elbow should be at 45 degree angle!" "No, it should be at a 44 degree angle!" "No, you're full of it - it should be 46 degrees!"
@@karimshebeika8010 I was gonna say, in that clip, it's funny how when you pressure test that it basically looks like MMA.
@@WarriorBoy Nope. Not at all. Most WC practitioners have never fully mastered what they are taught.. .and because they have not sparred heavy/full contact.. much, if ever... When they DO try it.. they tend to look like sloppy kickboxers. I USED to be like this, initially, when I was starting out. However, I trained harder, longer, and more intensely.. in addition to sparring regularly. Eventually, I was able to maintain perfect WC form IN full contact sparring sessions... typically against fighters that were double my own mass and strength.
The key here is, Mastery. A non-mastered tech.. is like trying to cut a tough piece of steak, with a dull butterknife. Its going to be a disaster. A constant struggle, against continual failures. Its only when your tools and ability to apply those skills, are Razor sharp.. that you can apply them accurately, without failure.
In addition to poor training and execution... far too many in WC circles try to make Excuses about how techniques do not have to be Accurate to the way they are taught in the form / art. This is a fallacy. This is the type of thing that is said... because they Lack the ability and understanding, of how to perform properly, under the strain of heavy contact sparring situations.
One can say something similar about Pro MMA fighters. There are plenty of them that throw very sloppy kicks. Even if the kicks land... they often lack stopping power. The fault is not the kicks they try to execute... The Fault is in the lack of Masters of these kicks. I can find you countless TMA's, that are capable of FAR Superior kicking abilities, that will severely injure an OP, on a single impact. They can apply these kicks flawlessly EVERY time they are thrown, consistently. This is what it means, to have Masterclass level abilities. Being paid to fight, does not mean that you are a Masterclass level fighter.
Plot Twist: in Mandarin, it’s not pronounced Wing Chun or Ving Tsun, rather Yong Chun (sounds king of like “yah-ng chw-uh-n”)
🤯😁
But how is it said in Cantonese since it's southern style.
Correct. Yong Chun is the pinyin romanization of the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation. Wing Chun, Ving Chun and Wing Chun are various romanizations of the Cantonese pronunciation. Since Wing Chun is a Southern Chinese style and most of the famous proponents were/are Cantonese speakers, these are the most commonly seen translations of the Chinese characters. ...Wait ...am I responding to THE Ramsey Dewey, the bald headed MMA coach from Shanghai? ...with the voice to match James Earl Jones??? I am in awe, coach! Love your videos!!!
Hahahaha! Good one, Ramsey! I think right now someone will read this and then we will see a brand new organization of the Wing Chun named Yong Chun. 😁
@@willstith1 No idea. I don’t speak Cantonese. It’s only spoken in Guangdong province and Hong Kong. I live in the mainland.
Your life experience of starting out as a young guy obsessed with anime and Asian culture, being lead to TMAs, is very familiar sounding to me. It's so funny how traditional arts and people who practice them talk about honor, respect, and all these other lofty concepts, but I've found more drama and backbiting in the TMA community than in any other segment of martial arts, especially Chinese arts like you said. Their minds would be boggled by someone pointing out to them that an outsider would see their styles as being identical.
Love these stories man! Also like how you recognize that you probably had a reach advantage and didn't just ego trip and say they stopped sparing with you because your just so much better than them. Whatever percentage of that being true doesn't matter, the fact that you have the self awareness to look into other factors is refreshing.
Stories is exactly what they all, Fairy tales.. Basicaly he did a couple karate classes in a leisure centre... smh
Yeah it always feels great to feel like you're on the journey to be the ultimate martial artist.
That was one of the reasons I got sick of my martial arts training , politics is rampant and it ruins it. Especially as you get up in the higher ranks.
There is so much drama in Kung Fu it's pretty silly I remember hearing similar stories and fights from people in different lineages when I trained in Hung Ga I remember my school would just note the differences between different styles of lineages but overall say that ours was obviously the better and more authentic one. It's all pretty ridiculous.
I train at a kung fu school which really doesn't have a style. In the beginning I was quite confused about that.
There are no fixed or set forms taught where i train, instead one chooses and trains individual techniques and fits them into a form by oneself.
I used to see that as odd but it makes sense to me now because the practical use of a form to me lies in how good you can execute an individual technique under alive circumstances.
Other people don't train forms at all and focus only on sanda or like me personally, mix both aspects.
Over time I have come to enjoy it this way though others may not see it as "the correct way" to learn a martial art.
@@gushlergushler Oh man, it's cool that you found something like that, that you like. But I would go crazy without forms. They're so fun.
Sounds like what Bruce Lee emphasizes how martial arts should train. Good on your gym.
Martial artists*
@@fauxbravo To be fair, I also do practice some classic forms, especially qi xing quan but I started that just recently. It is really great fun though.
I can relate to this video so much. I had the same experiences with Wing Tsun/Wing Chun. I was training Wing Tsun passionately for some years and reached a relativly high grade. One experience I had made me realise something and lead me to overthink. A friend of mine was interested in training in a local Wing Chun school and asked me, to accompany her and check out this school together. Before even starting the class, the so called "Master" questioned us about our prior experiences in martial arts and I made the mistake, to tell him, that I was already training at Wing Tsun, at that point unaware of the hatred between these lineages. He then did not let me take part in the regular training class and instead took me in to a seperate room, where he lectured me for 2 hours how bad Wing Tsun is and how great Wing Chun is. That one style is all good and perfect and the other style is all fake and money making. He told me this while showing me the EXACT same techniques I had learned at Wing Tsun.
I'm now training open minded and free of styles for MMA. However, I'm sad that Wing Tsun/Chun often has this bitter tone to it, altough it can be a great style with good aspects.
I thought Wing Chun and Wing Tsun are the same thing but with different pronunciations?
@@rcarfang2 it’s the same thing... you wanna learn real wingchun go learn from Samuel kwok or ip ching
wow he spent 2 hours lecturing instead of spending 2 hrs in actually practicing the martial art? that's a waste of 2 hrs.
@@liam-n8098 Not to be that guy but the fact you allowed yourself to be "lectured" for 2 hours is ridiculous. I would have left, I train BJJ and I wouldn't let a different school waste my time over a clear ego issue.
At Wing Tsun I hardly ever hear anyone talking sh!t about other lineages. People just don’t care about some lineages argues on the other side of the globe, we just want to learn the art. I wish every other lineage the same thing!
Thanks for sharing man, i am a wing chun practitioner as well, and also have felt this letdown about the politics war between wing chun practitioners. I actually empathize a lot with you, im very sorry that the wrong instructors took away your disciplined and well intended passion about the martial art. I think you spoke very sincerely.
We can have a whole conversation about the "real" masters of the art, and how you as a student can identify the real vs the fake, the good vs the bad, the profound and applied knoledge vs the posing salesman, the one that wishes to serve vs the one that wishes to serve himself of you. I would love if you could make a video a bout this topic, because to me, martial arts is: "The art of facing life". So the method of finding the truth, is actually one of the things that a martial art should strive for, naturally because its elemental to face life.
So lets talk about some of the basic ideas that should be applied:
- Ying Yang principle: If you go to extreme internal and only theorize, you become a technician that only talks about the art. If you go extreme external and only fight, without applyng technique you become a brawler, that doesnt learn. If you use both for progressing, internally you learn and hipotethize, and then put to practice with reality testing (sparring), get feedback and repeat the cycle. This way you become a warrior, since you strive for the Consciousness off better fighting.
(so this way we can discard groups that dont do sparring or pressure testing, and groups that only fight but not teach, tipical bully club)
- Self Consistency: "You have to be the change you want to see in the world-Gandhi" if a martial artist strive to be the best martial artist, he doesnt do it by denigrating others. Because he treats with respect, because he wants a world with respect; he gives the example even if others do not, because he wants a world of righteous. (this way we can discard this Wing Chun and Wing Tjun group, for not giving the example and answering your strive to martial arts by putting other people down and compare themselves superior. really common also in jobs competition)
-Reasonable thinking: a martial art should inspire you to use your critical thinking, in order to simplyfy the art of facing life in to simpleness, in to basic principles or small ideas. The reasoning process, used also implicit in the scientifici method comes like this: i see a problem or a event, i try to find the unions the bridge; i point my finger to see beyond the problem and solve it, and concludes with an idea or theory. Naturally waht comes to mind is the three forms of wing chun, siu nim tao (small idea), chum kiu (finding the bridge), biu jee (fingers pointing [to the moon]). So actually Wing Chun, trys to teach you this concepts of a way of thinking with the forms. The thing is nobody taught me this, i discovered them on my own by analysing the meaning behind the forms and the art. So should every martial artist do.
- Many more that we could discuss:!!
Ill wait for your repply.
Best wishes to you!!
Never trust a group that trashes another group more than teaching what's morally ethical
Its not just wing chun, theres alot of toxicity in the martial arts community.
Agreed especially in the kung fu/Karate scene , there is so much drama its unreal.
,* a lot (is two words). Lot begins with the letter: L (not A).
@@stevenjoyce4350 can't stand word police .
@@chrisgermann6658 l can't stand people that think "alot" is a word. I learned how to spell three-letter words in my first year of Primary School. Perhaps you park "acar" in "aparking" lot !.
@@stevenjoyce4350 you sound very snobbish you need to loose up.
Some of your videos I disagree with but this one was really impressive and couldn’t agree more! Awesome video.
My sifu only tells me to be wary of instructors who have never been in a fight.
In the beginning. The forms and techniques are super important to build structure. After you've been in it for a while, it becomes more about concepts and how you personally approach a conflict.
I did Wing Tsun for a few years when I was a teenager and it was great. 50% of your training sessions would be hard sparring with small gloves. We even did some grappling. I didnt know anything about the culture and especially commercialized culture of WING TSUN. I know realize how lucky I was to have had such a great trainer that did not really fall for the brainwash. By now he has founded his own school, I am not sure if he is still training. He also tought us about the strength of other martial arts especially BJJ and thaiboxing and let us train knee strikes and TDD, as well as a few submissions. I guess he either got kicked out for not paying/promoting enough or he left because he realized that the whole club was a big brain washing pyramid scheme
th-cam.com/video/IRMuG62UL2c/w-d-xo.html 3 years ago he still had a school. I know this link comes a little late, you already made your video about WingTsun. But still, nice to see that he actually still does resitance tests.
@@karimshebeika8010 That sounds like a man who really understood Wing Tsun / chun and martial arts in general.👊
Gloves you were part of the commercialisation of Wing Chun to be a money maker off the westerners who all want to be better than Bruce Lee etc but in 6 months without the pain
Yeah, a lot of wing chun guys are martial arts Pharisees in pretty much every sense of the word - looking down on others as “less-than” because they don’t rigidly a tradition of overly refined martial arts techniques that misses the point and realities of fighting altogether.
...but what would I know, I was in one of those “hard CH”, hack-fraud wing chun schools lol
This seems to happen in many martial arts but maybe more so in wing Chun. As an outsider who mostly trained in karate I was impressed buy a teacher I met a few years ago. Wing Chun definitely has something to offer as far as training techniques (sticky hands) that don't have much counterpart in other striking arts, not to mention the focus on trapping range that even karate has forgotten, but the purism holds it back so much.
A part of me thinks that it’s not necessarily Wing Chun in and of itself but traditional Confusionist ideas of preferential filial loyalty that causes this phenomenon.
It's not just about tradition, in fact Kernsprecht talks all the time about how he personally made Wing Tsun more modern and practical in real-life fight situations.
And I can definitely agree he made it more modern. The most modern thing being that he turned it into a multi-level marketing corporation.
I still believe I've aquired some practical skills there, but none of them are fighting skills. His school puts a lot of emphasis on psychological techniques of conflict deescalation and I found some of those to be somewhat useful.
There are 2 sects of Cambodian traditional martial arts too. One is the Bokator and the other is Yuthkrom Khorm. I've trained with both arts and the stuff I hear from each of them are the same, they claim to be the real Khmer martial art, they discredit the other to the point of insults, and they claim the other to be money grabbing organizations too.
What I learnt is this: I hated the politics and I just removed myself far from both schools. Now I'm training Khmer kickboxing with instructors of experience in professional Khmer kickboxing and world-class MMA matches. I've never been happier with martial arts as I am now.
The problem with most wing Chun guys is that they watched Ip man too many times and can't seem to differentiate between choreographed fights and real ones.
All the Bruce Lee fanboys make me laugh, also the Ip Man films are really propaganda films against the Japanese and the Westerners. They are constantly winning the wars they lost. Who can blame them? They were treated very badly.
I teach wing chun and agree 100% with you. Most practitioners seen are generally not so great. It has worked well for me. I did not have this nonsense like this guy is saying. Anyhow; I'm a retired LEO and used it well. At times I had to severely tamper it because I got in trouble.
lol, just like me when I was just 16 years old. It was the year when Ip Man was released. I looked up videos on youtube and started learning on my own. I thought I was a badass back then. I was delusional af. I only came to my senses when I started boxing lessons 4 years later lol
I practice Wing Chun since I was 13, almost 30 years ago, taught to me by my father, and it helped me a lot in high school because I was the fat boy of the class and bullied. That being said, Ip Man movies weren't around yet and my father taught me a more practical Wing Chun, to fight on the outside gate of the opponent and end the fight quickly, not beautiful or choreographed, just practical, mostly you can end a fight with just a Tan Sao and a Chung Kuen or a Ju Chueng.
@@insidethevelvetglove3919 i think bruce lee was one of the key people that help shape mma. He was the kind of fighter that wanted to innovate martial arts.
Hey Rokas, Would you have Chadi on? He studies manuscripts on the disbanded techniques in the arts mostly but by no means purely Judo. I think he would make an excellent addition to your journey. I'm Sub to him thanks again.
I love his channel! Incredibles vidéos!
This is why I love MMA, this sounds eerily similar to my Kung Fu experience it seemed most students didn't want to spar and focused on gossip about other schools instead of growing as a practitioner my group of friends started focusing on full contact spars and we ended up having to leave the school when another group of students "felt uncomfortable" watching us go hard during spars. The teacher, seeing that only 4 out of his 30+ students were being targeted just apologized to us and told us that the current month would be the last. We were devastated, one of my friends went to a Shotokan school(he actually ended medaling in a major US competition and has his own school now), another went to a Wah Lum school(ended up joining the military and is currently a martial arts instructor for the military) my other friend ended up begging to stay so long as he stopped full contact sparring don't know what happened to him but he probably quit as last I saw him he was out of shape, I ended up joining a small Wing Chun school. My two friends that went to other school ended up happier and I ended up doing Wing Chun until the school closed and joined a BJJ school and just fell in love with the atmosphere of the MMA community. No politics, no lazy students just larping with endless forms talking about theory all day with no application, everyone genuinely has no ego and want to grow and be better plus I ended up teaching some practical Shao Lin and Wing Chun to my gym mates I'm currently a purple belt and have medaled multiple times in tournies and interschool matches. Reading some of these comments and reflecting I think I've come up with a theory as to why alot of schools and students end up like that, everyone is so absorbed in the history they get caught up in the aura of the art and when someone wants to actually improve and apply their knowledge they can't handle the reality that everything they've learned is just theory and when it's time to test their mettle they don't want to shatter their shared delusion so they nitpick each other and other schools to prevent it. It's not the case with modern MMA, they've taken Bruce Lee's theory and are working, egoless to evolve as martial artists.
Another great video rokas 👍
That sounds exactly like Bujinkan! When I first trained in it in the UK it was with an orginisation called the Bujinkan Brian Dojo that was apparently linked to Hatsumis Bujinkan international but then after some time and a lot of pushing we were told that we had actually split off becuase Hatsumi was no longer teaching 'real' Ninjutsu and had changed to teaching Budo Taijutsu. Then a few years later when I went to live in Japan and went to Hatsumis Honbu dojo I was told I would have to start in a beginer class even though I had a couple of Kyu grades because of my old instructors evil money grabbing ways that had dishonored the orginisation and that he was no longer teaching 'real' Ninjutsu! Such a load of bullshit, I was so done with Bujinkan at that point and ended up getting invited to a BJJ class, never bothered with Bujinkan silliness again after that.
I did bujinkan too and lost faith when they kept charging more and more money every new belt or strpe. I didnt care about that status, i just wanted to train.
Same thing I said about bjj, shitty mind thought
I am really sorry you went through that. I hear these horror stories all the time. I found a great group of guys and we train wing chun. There is a lot of good wing chun out there. Just gotta look for it. Wong Shun Leung, the guy in the videos, was amazing. The king of talking hands. Gary Lam is one of his students and is a tremendous teacher. Good luck on your journey.
I thought Wing Chun and Wing Tsun were different pronunciations of the same style.
Very good video Rokas!
Very well explained and I can confirm similar experiences.
It's funny you should mention this, but I ( and I'm sure a lot of your other viewers) have observed this. I remember our instructor saying this about a lot of other schools. It was basically years later I thought 'how do you know?' Years later I trained chi sau with someone from Hong Kong who had learned from one of the other schools. He was really good, and I learned from that that none of us have any right to think badly of others because they don't do as we do. You said this in your video very clearly.
Rokas upload a new video about Wing Chun.
TMA guys and Dan Wolfman : "Ah shit, here we go again.."
🤣
I appreciate this video a lot brother! I had a similar journey with breakdancing. I was young and eager to learn from anyone that I can. I found and met up with a really talented breakdancer in my hometown. I learned a lot from him, however it was immediately cut short because he constantly ended training with stories of how he was such an influence for the community and that he doesn't get respect from the younger generation. I felt sorry for him because all the energy spent on his petty squabbles with the young generation he could just focus on himself and the students he already has. It felt petty and just rubbed me the wrong way. You said it best that being a good person is so crucial.
I would say that your editing and meme skills are a KO in every video!! The great edits on this vid had me laughing my ass off despite your soothing podcast style narrative and voice. :D :D :D Great humor is a mark of great intelligence
For whatever reason, a lot of the Wing Chun lineages simply do not like each other. The disciples of Ip Man went and opened and their own schools and so many of them have had to change their names to differentiate, some are Wing Chun, some are Wing Tsun, some are even Ving Tsun.etc etc. Some is Applied Wing Chun, some is Practical Wing Chun, Modern Wing Chun.etc. It's all these purity tests and trying to stand out from the competition from Duncan Leung, Wong Shun Leung, Emin Boztepe, William Cheung, Wam Kam Leung, Leung ting so on and so forth. The in-fighting and "im real you're not" in Wing Chun is really prevalent compared to other styles I've seen. And I've never been a fan of any martial art instructor that would discourage training anything and everything that you want to find use in.
It's all because of Bruce Lee. Hadn't he been a student of Ip Man, no one outside of Hong Kong would have ever heard of Wing Chun except for some martial arts historians Kernspecht was/is a marketing genius. He bought Leung Ting as puppet representative for his organisation as the supposedly legitimate Ip Man successor, used Bruce Lee's name as flag ship for Wing Tsun while at the same time downplaying him as "he hadn't even learned the whole system" insinuating that if Bruce Lee was "so good even with just a fraction of the system - imagine how good YOU can become if you learn from the grandmaster Leung Ting, Ip Man's only master student who learned the whole system!"
@@angelsjoker8190 That's absolutely the company line. In '79 I started with the Augustine Fong system then I trained under Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe, and taken seminars or worked out with Duncan Leung People, Sam Kwok people, etc. etc. but I had more luck in self defense with, of all things, my high school wrestling and what I learned from an Escrima guy named Rene Latosa. Check him out. If Wing Chun is going to survive, it will be because of open minded, progressive influences like Alan Orr. Check him out too.
@@VTSifuSteve Yeah, Latosa Escrima was part of Kernspecht's EWTO but parted ways in the early 2000s. Back then, before he left, you would officially learn "Latosa Escrima" in EWTO Wing Tsun schools. Since he left, he's been deleted from the EWTO webpages. Now, they claim their Escrima started with Bill Newman without even mentioning he was Latosa's student. Now it's all corporate and just called EWTO Escrima.
@@VTSifuSteve Alan Orr's Wing Chun is the result of not letting ego and fear of being exposed holding back a massive determination in using Wing Chun techniques in principle in reasonable ways. Years of cross training, of studying MMA, and research that has gone into making his style of Wing Chun usable is crazy. And it seems that he is one of the only people (That we know of outside of Qi La La) that are willing to do whatever needs to be done to make WC effective. Even if it means breaking from tradition, cross training in other styles and being serious about training methodology for fighting. Wing Chun as a whole could learn a lot from Orr and Qi La La.
It is the same in catch wrestling. No catch wrestling is this. While other said catch wrestling is this. But then again freestyle wrestlers may hate catch wrestling. Saying it is fake, wrestling don't have submission, look like pro wrestling ( well duh pro wrestling AND freestyle wrestling evolved from catch wrestling), etc. It is just that freestyle wrestling removed the submission.
Like I told you in our talk, I subscribe to all these Chinese channels that break down hilarious bullshido matches. I'll send you some stuff privately. I have the bell button on for those channels, so every freaking day I have new hilarious matches from people with delusions.
I would like to hear an opinion from you. In your opinion does wing Chun not work only because of the lack of practical training and focus on handing down forms and lineage politics? Would wing Chun if supplemented with practical training from other arts such as sparring and pad work. Then would it work?
Dude that’s hilarious.
@@ultimatedrago4909 There are some great Wing Chun people out there. Mark Phillips is about to do a talk with Rokas soon hopefully ;) Stay tuned for that.
I don't understand why is that good for you, I always get saaad why I see something like that and it hurts my soul, because it's like rape the art of fighting. I don't like bullshido, I don't understand how can you tolerate and watch them. :D
@@ultimatedrago4909 If Wing Chun trained properly, then it could handle regular, untrained people, but not fighters, like boxers, thaiboxers, etc. So... Yes and no. It would be a suicide to chose Wing Chun for fighting on competitive level against fighters, but it's alright, if you just wanna have fun and still learn SOME self defense. Wing Chun can work against untrained people, but not against trained fighters.
Thanks for sharing.
Donnie Yen himself said that he finds MMA much more practical. Althoug he was trained by Ip Chun the son of Ip Man. 😅😉
Donnie trained multiple different types of martial arts besides wing chun
@@nyclee9133 I know... I Just replied what he said when asked about Wing Chun and his favourite Martial Art. 🤷♂️
Obviously MMA is the most useful under modern combat rules. It evolved with the rules while traditional training focuses on the center and moving into the enemy's weak positions.
@@circulationsolutions9149 The thing is, what do you mean by "traditional training"? It really doesn't get much more traditional than simple Boxing and Wrestling. Maybe if you talk about rulesets etc. Even in the case of Pankration it was already Olympic in 648 B.C.
@@NinjaKid1985 Donnie Yen is a Wushu and Kung Fu expert first. This traditional training is much older than modern boxing and wrestling and creates far different athletes.
One of the great problems of Chinese martial arts today is that absurd tendency to live on the supposed legitimacy of being "the only true school of the X style" and the others are false for X reasons.
It is common to hear "I am the only and exclusive certified representative of the style in the country" or "I come from the only true lineage of the style and my teacher is a descendant of the creator of the style" and the list goes on and on.
That sectarian thinking also discourages being able to train in other schools or other martial arts, much less combat sports, because "everything that is not from my school and lineage is a lie", in addition to the ridiculous thought of trying to be a traitor to a student with just go see other schools.
Despite this, the number of false teachers and con artists abounds in Chinese martial arts, while "real" masters waste their time flaunting their legitimacy and in eternal debates that lead nowhere, to live on glories of the past and to have as proof of the effectiveness of the style to the films of Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan.
I can relate to this video. I remember my Wu Tai chi class teacher going on about other fake money making Wu Tai chi schools. Also remember Shito ryu instructor going on about the evilness of Shotokan, and how it was incomplete and not real Karate
th-cam.com/video/aOMkqYNFVDs/w-d-xo.html
Tai chi is some kind of meditation with movement right ??
This… hits home. I liked Wing Chun a lot and had a great Sifu, but I was a college student and couldn’t train as much as I’d like to.
So I’d train in my free time with other students and they’d tell me about Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Chun drama and which schools were the “right” schools. It was all so high school and it drove me nuts.
There is a lot of hate within the lineages. It's sad. I try to be the best version of myself that I can be. I try not to compare myself to others, that is the path to suffering.
It seems to be a model of marketing people learn from their instructors alongside the combat techniques.
Could be. I also think some people with big egos thrive in such culture and develop it further.
Good day. I am from Split in Croatia. There is one new Aikido club named "Oni Aikido". I never see this kind of Aikido practice. They compete in Team MMA and Battle of the Nation. The also challenge other martial arts clubs to fight against them such as Wing Chung, Aikido, Karate, Boxing, Judo,...... Is that Aikido or not. Please can you help me with you opinion.
Seems like this is a pretty common thing in most traditional martial arts. So much drama. I guess I'm lucky that all the kung fu schools in my area seem to get along well.
I’m sorry for you and I completely understand your situation. There has to be someone who can help you. You need to research a lot and hopefully find a good teacher. I wish you luck.
It's very rare these days to find a good martial art instructors that focused on teaching people how to fight instead of dumb politics, like Ramsey Dewey
I experienced much less political drama in combat sports, but who knows, maybe I just trained at the good places
@@MartialArtsJourney Dude as I was saying to you why don't you try Monkey Kung Fu of Vahvah fitness. Atleast they have pictures of proof of the master as actually part of the military..
@@MartialArtsJourney No, you're right. In combat sports, it's much less. Doing martial arts and combat sports for a good 35 years and being active in several online communities for over a decade, I can tell Wing Chun is certainly one of the worst in terms of dumb politics between organizations and schools, and trashing on other styles in general. Never had those regular talks in class about the superiority of the style and lengthy explanations as to why as in the different Wing Chun/Tsun schools I visited. Not in Judo, full contact Karate, (Kick)Boxing, nor Jiu-Jitsu. All of them just did their thing. Going to competitions was encouraged, as was cross-training with other styles (or at least not frowned upon)
I like my wing Chung teacher and lineage . my teacher says this is not sport nor fighting . this is self defense , how to protect yourself in the streets.
I have sparred against a few Wing Chung practitioners over the years. I think it is a beautiful art, but all the focus on stylistic movements over effective movement seems to make it less than effective in actual confrontation. That said I have also trained with a few Wing Chung folks who were absolute baddasses in every aspect if the word. Keep training and enjoy the journey.
I always tell my students the person you’re training for is yourself, not others. So there’s no reason to make friends and I don’t recommend socialising with other students. Because familiarity breeds contempt and you have to respect the other students, once personalities get involved with each other it distracts your concentration from what you’re doing.
And finally I always tell them, the only person you should compare yourself with is your past self, if you’re making progress even slow progress that’s good enough.
Im starting to like his vid and doing Marathon episode per episode i can relate to his experience 😁
I saw the same shit training in jeet kune do, all the masters talk shit about other arts pretending to be the best ones it was so toxic that I have to leave that master and I will never training with someone with that mentality, thank you for making this video.
Great video, I studied Wing Chun for 5 years and got to biu gee level. In that time we never done any sparring whatsoever. I left after realising that the Sifu was just stalling our progress. I’ve since discovered BJJ big time and also muai Thai. We spar every lesson straight from the beginning.
Boring
Yea that’s unfortunate. The jealousy infighting and back biting is the death of us 😢
The usage of darkness from Legend is perfect.
Doesn’t wing chun have a grappling / close range element to its training? Did you feel your aikido was at all applicable in that context?
I've done Wing Chun for about 12 years now, and have been a teacher for the last 7. The politics of wing chun lineages is ridiculous. I've been fortunate to train wing chun in place where sparring and full contact with realism in mind has always been a big focus. And that methodology has proven effective time and again throughout the years. I knew staying here was the right choice against other organizations because very early on i noticesd no one else did sparring, or groundfighting. I've learned jiu jitsu, wrestling and even some judo and how to counter those martial arts applying wing chun ever since early on, and its served me very well, i've never felt incapable of fighting, or outmatched by any other style so far. It's been great and i rest assuredly knowing i made the right choice by shunning those other annoying lineages who say we're bad because our forms are different.
Wing Chun politics is a terrible aspect of the amrtial art, and it probably has the most politics of any martial art out there. Yeah, even more than jiu jitsu.
I learnt wing chump for 4 years during the 1990s. During that time I worked as a doorman in some of the most violent bars in Sydney and as a prison officer in the state's largest max jail. I can certify that under pressure in a hostile volatile and violent environment wing chump does not work, ever! It did however act as a good supplement for my boxing enhancing speed and sensitivity. The most effective martial art in those types of environments is boxing or muy thai.
i quit wing chun because jiu jitsu scratched my itch. that introduced me to boxing and muay thai.
I quit wing chun because the only place to study in my area was a mcdojo where a person got belts, or a sash, by showing up and paying. I would have not given myself the last sash I earned and I was paying $25 usd per hour for private lessons. I switched to muay thai and just started jiu jitsu too. Some of the things I learned in wing chun were useful in muay thai(and oddly enough jiu-jitsu too) but also some of the things caused problems and were almost bad habits I had to train myself out of.
I had something similar with my old taekwondo school, he used to talk shit about all other martial arts clubs and schools all the time
th-cam.com/video/aOMkqYNFVDs/w-d-xo.html
I've trained mostly mma and bjj, but did some wing chun younger. I think it works, but it only covers a tiny fraction of distance and time opportunity in the totality of the fight. So I think it's worth learning the trapping, but not invest years and years and years into it.
Bjj has bullshito
Japanese proved the Gracies a fraud
@@surenotejas3163 yes, as evidenced by the history of ufc to this day.
I ran into a bit of this on my martial arts/wing Chun journey too. Thankfully not much as most practitioners I met were more concerned about making the techniques work than talking about the fissures between Yip Man’s students and different lineages.
I would definitely advise people to find teachers who are not only accomplished and mature martial artists, but accomplished and mature human beings as well. The absence of trash talk about other schools or instructors should definitely be a top criterion to look for.
Yeah, I was part of the Wing Tsun (Leung Ting's) in Siauliai and I remember where there was like one instance of this topic being brought up but back then I was more naive and so I continued with it. Back then as teenager it helped me being indifferent to this beef to just carry on lol With that said, in the recent time I was also invested in about William Cheung's Wing Chun and the whole Traditional Wing Chun vs. the modified one but all in all there's just so much going with Wing Chun and all these different systems that it's really discouraging 😔
Also... sveikas Rokai 😄
Labas!
“I wanted to be the ultimate martial artist, better than anyone else?”
Wow this is almost the exact experience I had as well. My teacher was also a high level Wing Tsun Dai-Sifu that left the Leung Ting group to start his own. I also checked back on him years later to find out he was "betrayed" by his students who ended up joining another group led by one of his mentors. I swear there is some kind of a curse on Wing Chun but man I did love some of the techniques and still train on my own with my wooden dummy. Cheers!
Excellent story
Their is a third group in Germany…Ving Chun…and in their view Wing Chun and Wing Tsun is the World of evil…and i left this group, when my training started to be destructiv because i was not willing to pay for special training …10.000 Euro…so i quit…
Rofl...............Bless..............
thank God i practice silat, it's free.
due to the gruesome training, the instructors are more than happy if you come to the training ground next session.
@Kung Fu Warlock our silat was assimilated with BajiQuan and XinYiLiuheQuan.
Silat and Baji/Xinyi is very effective against white people (taller and bigger opponent) when we fought in 1947-1949 independence war.
many Kuo Min Tang partisan join our side and assimilated those with silat.
while the ex-japanese soldiers that join us assimilated karate, judo and aikido with our silat.
the ex-gurkha that join us assimilated Kalaripayat with our silat.
until today we have a saying in our silat community, "it's all fun and games until the silat practitioner use Baji Quan".
i don't want to take a chance, i only use silat when it suits me, such as kicking techniques and counter grapple.
im not afraid people who know silat like in merantau movie, im only afraid those who came from east java region who will resort to Baji quan when shit got serious.
Baji Quan is literally a one hit kill weapon.
Baji and Xinyi basic is taught in the basic belt while Karate/muaythai is taught in the intermediate belt and silat for the advance/near initiation belt.
i've seen and experienced how devastating Baji quan did by silat practitioners, i can only imagine what a real Baji/xinyiliuhe quan practitioners can do.
also i wonder why xu xiaodong only challenge wing chun masters and never challenge any baji quan or xinyiliuhe quan pactitioners.
that would be an eye opening for him.
I wish tma like wing chun had a real organisation with quality control, one branch under wushu sanda for fighting, one branch under wushu taolu for the other stuff that people still want to keep.
lol. Wushu, Sanda, and Sausho, are all watered down Fake Arts, created by the Corrupted CCP. They are all FAR inferior to any of the original Chinese combat arts.
Wing Chun was an art that was developed in secret, by an underground rebel organization. It advanced itself, live, on the battlefields. One of the groups never got back in touch with the others... so it stayed the same, and was only recently released to the public. The rest of the WC fighters had modified the art to what was working best in battle... but... they were over-ran by sheer troop numbers, so they all went into hiding.
These artists kept the art alive, by teaching them in secret, to a select few. The art was passed down in secret, for over 300 yrs, before finally re-surfacing to the public, via Yip Man in Hong Kong.
Due to China's "Cultural Revolution" banning all arts for over 60yrs.. it was a miracle that any arts survived at all. Over 70 million Chinese lives were lost.
Yip Man himself did not teach the art.. until he was an Elderly man. Yipman also made changes to the art himself. He reduced the forms length and complexities. He also had a woodworker make him an enhanced wooden dummy... that could be used in his Apartment. The original dummy were planted in solid ground, and their arms did not Move. This lack of arm movement caused anyone whom was doing the Dummy Form... to have to take extra steps, to account for the lack of the arms movements. The newly improved dummy, not only made the dummy easily to own in the modern age.. but also, made the form for it more simple and more direct.
Are there things in the Older versions of WC, that are beneficial, and potentially were lost to degradation? Quite possibly.
As such... Whom has the expert knowledge and fully mastered skills, to be able to make such a qualified Judgement of which methods are Official / Best?
Also... Would you say that there is only ONE official way to make a Roasted Chicken dinner?
And even more importantly.. do you actually TRUST, the "Ministry of Truth", to make these important decisions for YOU? You do realize, that with power and wealth... there is corruptions.
Yip Man himself asked many of his students this question:
"How do you know, if I am teaching you the REAL Wing Chun?"
Basically speaking, Yipman was telling his students.. that they needed to think for themselves. That in order to know the highest truths.. they have to discover it for themselves.. such as by testing what they were taught.
@@johndough8115 I mean... I guess Taiwan's kuoshu Leitai association could also work. I just wanted a central governing body to certify the academies, not saying ti force them through the process. think of it like the judo federation. there's still freestyle judo and unaffiliated schools, but also maintains good quality control
@@jezzaboi2168 I understand where you are coming from. That said.. most Every so called "Federation" is a corrupted institution. Why? Because people of power and control.. do not want the Slave Class to have high level combat capability. That is why most arts were long since "Sportized". Thats was arts like TKD, do not allow kicks below the belt, in their typically Point-Based tournaments...etc.
As for putting such arts in the hands of Taiwan? Taiwan is a cool place, with nice people. I visited there once. However... Taiwan is under threat of being taken over by the CCP, at the present moment. Furthermore.. I would not doubt that the CCP members already exists in Taiwan's various places.. stationed and ready to betray. The CCP is the Ultimate Evil.. and it knows no bounds.
I will add.. that arts like Judo, are not Full combat arts. They are a Subset of Combat. In virtually every Chinese combat art... they teach all ranges of combat... from long range, to short. From strikes to grappling, locks to throws and takedown..etc. I believe many of these Subsets have become their own Arts... out of mere corruption, and the Sportization industry that they created for it.
What I can tell you... is that I was able to learn from many different versions of various arts.. master and test them on my own. I know what works best, because of my own test... not because of what someone else "Told me".
There are a lot of misunderstandings about how WC works...let alone many other arts... and as such... as personally seeing people make such incredible bad takes on various things... I can not recommend that anyone try to form an Official governing body.
You know... I cant tell you how many times I, MYSELF, have been wrong about various things in my own art, let alone, within others. These thoughts had what I felt, were solid logical reasons, behind them. But.. again... I ended up being way off the mark. This again, is why it is very dangerous to try to Consolidate + make things "Official".
It saddens me that you had such an experience. Although I prefer sparring in order to perfect not just my style but another persons as well. Doing self training or using a wooden dummy is a good way to keep the muscle memory alive, as well as maintain the body. Love your videos, God bless
I stoped going to wing chun classes in 2019 I started in late 2017 and I actually am pretty good with it , but I moved outta the city I was in and I hope to find one where I’m moving to now so I can start at it again
@Sam Why would he? You seem to underestimate the amount of people that do martial arts for fun
Is being a good human being a core criteria to being a humanistic martial artist Batman 😉 ?
Wing Chung is effective when combined with other arts. Everyone knows kicking, punching and grappling range, but who knows about trapping range? Name any style and I guarantee you it has its limitations. Check out Paul Vunak's
Progress fighting systems.
"Hurting someone is easy, but to build a relationship filled with trust and respect takes effort"
Blessings to all my brothers and sisters; lets learn to love one another and not destroy one another.
Yep, unfortunately true that we have a lot of infighting in Wing Chun. Though I would say from my experience (and I hope I'm right that this is happening in other places) there is a growing younger generation that is a lot more open to reaching out and connecting with different lineages that is growing larger.
Have you given any thought to making a video about FMA?
I'm curious as to your opinion on its effectiveness.
When I was training Kyokushin karate it was the same, man! Many organizations in the country of different professors that went their separate ways (although since it's more modern we can pretty much track what's happened in each case), all claiming the others are mercenaries. But I have to add: critics were usually to the heads or economic policies or head figures of the organization and not to individual martial artists whom everyone would respect.
I hate Kyokushin with a passion. "Tough guys" but their fight level is nowhere near a B.
@@realamericannegro977 I keep hearing about it's so tough and so manly, then watched two persons standing close enough to hug and hammering each other on the chest. Any other contact sport keeps a healthy distance because they worry about hits to the face, but the 'toughest' karate just about hugs each other without care.
After several years in the Kung Fu world, I thought that politics, gossip, and cultishness were just a part of martial arts.
Having been involved with competitive, modernized systems for a couple of years now (Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai), I see that's not at all true. I've seen absolutely none of the pettiness that pervaded Kung Fu.
As a wise man once told me, "We don't gotta put up with that bullshit."
Sounds like a summary right out of a book
"Training in a secret forest" This is funny as hell and relatable. When I went to college, early freshmen year I met and became friends with a guys that all had different martial arts backgrounds and we used to meet up and spar/train in the woods near campus. We had a Ninjitsu, Jujitsu, my TKD and later a dude from China with Wing Chun (who never actually sparred). It was cool for a bit but like your story, I was better even though I didn't show it at all and guys started meeting up without me. Young guys training in the woods, ah the mystical feeling of it all
I sorry that you had that experience I practice jkd now and am very much enjoying it but a while ago before I joined jkd I tried to check out a wing chun school after leaving a previous kung fu school and when I showed up I was basically interrogated they asked me about my sifu my lineage and my organization then after I told em all that they looked at me like I was some weirdo and they said yeah call us later to set up a appointment yeah i never went back
Whoaa... 😕
stick with JKD or other martials. That narrowminded cult like mentality is what Bruce Lee spoke out against.
There's a reason Bruce Lee changed up his style from pure wingchun after his fight with Wong Jackman.
@@cedricbauman9537 I very much enjoy jkd it feels like the natural progression of kung fu that I honestly feel Ike most masters are afraid to do but I am still interested in learning wing chun from someone who is fully separated from all that weird lineage drama
Just gotta take what you learned works and add it into your own stuff now.
Reminds me of a quote from Mango, world class Melee player, about his temporary retirement 10 years ago:
"I always loved Melee. It was the community who fucked it up! It was you guys. You guys ***ged everything up and made everything ***."
How wild! :o
I was the student of a famous master of Wing Chun in my area. It was the same, he switched sides, left organizations and teachers many times. In fact, every senior member of the Wing Tsun (Kernspecht's organization, which we were once part of) left it to create it's own organization, who also lost many seniors... It is a mess. Too much ego, face and politics, as it's usual in CMA. And you know what? Wing Chun is almost useless, it's frequently considered the worst MA alongside Aikido, and I started my MA journey with both, just like you.
Qi La La disagrees.
I was also part of a wing chun school which was once part of Kernspechts organization, I think. Luckily for me, when it came to other wing chun there was rarely any bad talk and almost never were other people presented in a bad light. Ego was absolutely still a problem, tho. That's why I left.
I also agree on the usefulness of wing chun in general. The average wing chun school doesn't offer the kind of training that would be necessary to become better at fighting. Even if all the promises that wing chun makes about what the techniques/ principles can do were true (which I believe is far from true), then the training methodology would still cancel out any potential progress towards fighting skill.
I think it's fair to mention, tho, that I still love wing chun as an art and I would probably still be doing it if I had the time for 2 martial arts classes :)
Aikido does work to some extent. It maybe not as good as Muay Thai or BJJ but it does works.
It is not only about the ego, it is also about license fees. When someone wants to open a "Wing Tsun-school" in any Country which is controlled by the Kernspecht-EWTO, he has to pay a lot of license fees to this organisation.
@@m5a1stuart83 Maybe you should watch more of Martial Arts Journey videos and see that you are pretty much wrong.
Wait until wolfeyboy hears about this 😂 I really want you to challenge him and Remy I feel like you're good enough at MMA to take them out
Right
I think fighting each other would prove nothing :) Who knows though we may meet one day to have a friendly spar, but for fun, not for something else.
@@MartialArtsJourney nah in boxing we call it keeping you honest. These guys are ultimately Walter Mitties and a dose of reality would help them in their journey. Don't always go the route of pacifist because sometimes you need to course correct people as a good person 😎👍
Watching that video he made about using aikido in live rolling/sparring. All the pro fighters were like 20-30kg lighter than him and the big guys were all beginners. 🤔
@@MartialArtsJourney Yeah, Dan is hella old at this point, you're on the right course. The man keeps making an ass of himself, all by himself. I'd say give him no more attention at this point, you already tried your best to be reasonable.
I was fortunate to find a martial arts teacher who loved sparring. After a few months of private lessons, he made me his regular sparring buddy. He was looking for someone to punch and tap out for fun. He later told me how he loved sparring and grappling since he was a teen but rarely found a student who enjoyed it as much as I did.
Good story telling......
The same issues are in ITF taekwondo. There are so many different ITF organization, all claiming to the be the one true taekwondo and talking down the others. All for the sake of honour of course. LOL
I don't know, most TKD guys I met are quite legit. Maybe because all TKD school where I live train for the national tournament where the state is looking for candidates for the international competitions. You can't bs your way in a national association when the state is looking for potential gold medalists. The same thing applied for karate.
@@minhducnguyen9276 I actually think the biggest issue with TKD is that hyper emphasis on the sport aspect. WTF and some of the ITF splinter bodies have adopted rules and formats that pretty much make it useless as a form of self-defense (which is what a lot of people join to learn) at most dojangs. There are some that teach the real deal, to be sure (even some WTF-affiliated dojangs teach combat oriented sparring in the studio and focus less on sport) but if sparring is oriented to the competition rules, you have point breaks, no punches to the face (the best litmus test for a practical striking martial art), and an effectively lower contact level due to all the gear. Look at Olympic TKD, its basically leg-fencing at this point
One body that is fairly small but i think is probably the best to go with for practical sparring is USTF. They have a very combat/self-defense oriented curriculum with knockout sparring and even incorporates some grappling
The one true Tae Kwondo is the North korean hard style not taught in America.
@@getawaydreamer2724 I spent numerous years at an ITF club that said the same thing. There are way too many clubs who claim their style is the "one true" style. It becomes a cult-like mantra.
@@mck24601 Yes you are right. I actually just realized my wording was incorrect. No problem I stand corrected here. I was trying to convey “Hard style” Tae Kwondo that is being taught internationally from small not well known Dojo’s in South Korea. That pre-date the Korean War. Either way, People should just pick a style and roll with it. So many ways to take your personal skill to the next level. Less to do with the art and more with the individual.
I've been following you for a while now... I'm sorry but by my observation and obviously own opinion... I feel you are looking for some special techniques that make you a great fighter just because "they are what they are"... I believe you can use the talents you already have and train hard make any marital art your own... Love your honesty in every video though and will stay with you on your journey...
Nothing new my friend. I exercised Wing Tsun in 1986 and that war is already running between Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun . Now from the ages of perspective I can see how sad it was for that beautiful style.
What I really enjoyed about this video is that you never spoke ill of Wing Chun/Tsun/Tjun itself, and underlined a problem that goes beyond the discipline you're training. Honestly, having practiced both "traditional" arts (more on this on a side note) and modern combat sports (starting with the latter for some years and then integrating the former) to me what art you practice is not really that important, rather how realistically and how well you train it. And definitely, what you exposed has nothing to do with training, but everything to do with bickering. The difference between your mentality (that of a martial artist interested in progress rather than lineage) is the correct attitude for whatever practice you dedicate yourself to.
(side note: I'm using traditional for a lack of better words. Let's say that what I train derives from traditional practices but it's treated in a non-traditional way. So traditional may not be the best wording for it.)
Sorry to hear this. Where I live all different Wing Chun/Tsun/XXX clubs have a meet up once a year and train together.
Great to hear it :)
From my own experience I can say that all the bickering between the wing chun/tjun/Tsun etc. factions has led me appreciate MMA more. Besides the ‘chun’ is a Chinese character and not phonetic. So all the spelling is one big BS. As long as you pronounce it in the Cantonese way then it’s ok.
A long time ago I was training with a group called, "The Green Dragon Society" here in Chicago, and I ran into the same problems.
In my country I've never seen or even heard of a martial art school that doesn't practice sparring.whatever the martial art might be, the instructor always make his students practice , sparring and full body contact.and yes even in aikido.
I want to see your journey take you to collegiate wrestling. Embrace western martial arts tradition.
Shuai Jiao is good but, it's just no nonsense wrestling just like Greco Roman wrestling