Excellent discussion, Matthew! I just recently found out about the 5000 pound caveat to make it to the shortlist and it's just awful for indie publishers. Not to mention all the other issues you discussed.
Thank you, yes it truly is terrible, and with a £1.5 million sponsorship, it makes you wonder exactly WHY they need the fee for “marketing” from the shortlisted publishers... hmmm.
Yes! "pretentious and toxic" describes how I feel about a lot of these prizes. And I agree, rather than giving one writer a big monetary prize, shouldn't organizations who care about literature and art in general work to create a society/programs/etc. that support writers and the arts, rather than just the one writer who wins? Oooh yes that money/housing stuff is sketchy... Oh wow I didn't know about England's problem with closed literary societies! YES exactly - arts should be free and open to all, that's part of the POINT.
Absolutely, I'd love to see charities that work with these kind of schemes to negotiate how they can help a wider circle of writers and promote a more inclusive and well-distributed industry. It always pains me to see the publishing industry talking about having no money but then bidding with six to seven figure contract deals for particular writers, couldn't that wealth be distributed better?
10000% agree with all the points you‘ve made and stand behind this completely. You know how much I cannot stand this idea of an exclusive, elitist idea of what the best literature it is and you had to calm me down many many times about it already 😅😂 As someone who wants to work in the arts field I find it discouraging and very sad to see how much it is all just based on money and connection based on money, especially when you are supposed to „change the industry“ and it‘s just more privilege every damn time. As a community that prides itself so much with being inclusive and welcoming and open there needs to be a lot more work acknowledging the elitist nature of such prizes and our own approach to literature, because I‘ve seen things and I‘m not pleased 😂 Forever grateful for you and for the work you do to make me more aware of these things and provide a better and healthier industry for my part!
Thank you for the kind comment. Yes it can absolutely be discouraging when you're looking at this side of an industry you want to go into, but that doesn't mean that there isn't work being done to help change that, and we can be a part of that change too! I think it's hard to be self reflexive when you can get confirmation from your own beliefs, and I think an openness to in depth and nuanced discussions is absolutely key!
It's my understanding that the Booker has a tiered nomination system in which publishers can submit more books for consideration the more often they have been listed in the past? It is beyond me why anbody would implement a system like that when it's obviously the surest way into an echo chamber that you can imagine. But perhaps that was the point all along. I basically agree with everything from min. 1:00 onwards.
Yes absolutely, the system doesn't make sense to me in the slightest and is very indicative of the values that I don't appreciate. Perhaps you're right, maybe that just is their ambition.
I kept an eye on the Booker for years, but I haven't thought about it much in recent times. I don't dislike the idea behind the prize, but I found that if you followed publishing at all, then the books making it to the shortlist were the ones being hyped tons already. When I was younger, I used to think that those who were shortlisted for the Booker were representative of great fiction, that it was a particularly prestigious award to win. If I didn't like the winner, I'd always question if I simply wasn't smart enough to understand why it had been so successful. I'll admit that I didn't know much of what you mentioned in this video beforehand. I agree that the amount of money publishers are required to pay for "advertising" means that smaller indie presses won't be able to submit their authors - and these indie presses are where readers are more likely to find working class voices, and they're really the voices I feel I ought to promote. (Even though I haven't paid attention to this at all in recent times.) I'm not really sure what my perspective on the prize in, but I thank you for sharing yours. Perhaps it will cause me to look more inwardly and think more about the industry and the Booker prize.
I think that is definitely something that needs to be discussed more, the feeling that an institution like the booker prize can create in aspiring readers, I also had that feeling when I was younger that I wasn’t smart enough or well read enough for the booker prize, but I feel now it’s a sign of how it plays on other insecurities that is actually the problem! I definitely have looked into it more than I normally would because it helps me to understand my feelings and having heard little rumbles here and there before I wanted to get a clearer idea, and it all just doesn’t sit quite right to me.
thanks for this - i never knew what the Man group was, so hearing about their role in the housing crisis was really eye-opening. when i first heard about the "anything published in English in the UK +Ireland" rule i was kind of positive about it, thinking like you about English-language literature from countries like the Philippines or Singapore or Hong Kong that could get a huge boost and raise general awareness about how international the language is, and how it's used to tell stories from so many cultures and experiences - but instead it seems to just be a vehicle for globalisation as led by the US publishing industry, as you say.
Yes, it's such a shame that this is the way our world works, but hopefully we can use our purchase/loaning power to celebrate a more kind and fair bookish ecosystem!
Good points about the criteria for 'best', it's one of the things I've enjoyed hearing about for people judging the Booktube Prize - how different readers go about to rank books against each other, what kind of reasoning is behind the judging. Obviously it means you open yourself up for criticism against those requirements, which I would guess is why the booker opt not to do it? Really enjoyed your discussion, I didn't realize it cost to nominate for the prize so the indie-press aspect had slipped me by.
Yes, I think that's a great thing that the BookTube Prize did to separate themselves, they've been open and transparent and very much community based which makes a real difference in the faith of the outcomes, even if you don't agree! Haha.
This was so good to listen to, Matthew. I'm having somewhat mixed feelings about the prize this year! Thank you for the wonderful content. Hope you're doing well x
This was so enlightening Matthew! I knew so little about the Booker Prize but I find myself agreeing with everything you said, especially about the criteria and the funding that definitely is against indie authors. I also realize that a good percentage of my reading, in general, is US made and that truly doesn’t sit well with me, I want to try to change that in the future.
Thanks, Frannie! I’m glad you thought so. I think it’s a great opportunity to read outside of the US, I personally strive to change the narrative that the states are the centre of the English language literary world, and I realised that a big way for me to combat that was to assess how my social media consumption could be less US heavy too.
A great and really insightful and interesting video Matthew 😊. I found some of your points really fascinating and very valid. I must admit I am a prize junkie and love tracking book prizes. I have been following the women’s and the international booker prize this year. But I really enjoyed hearing your opinions on this issue. So thank you Matthew for sharing your thoughts 😊
Awh, thank you so much for the lovely comment, Beth! Yeah, I can totally see the appeal of lots of prizes and they do certainly have a positive impact on people reading books they may not otherwise, so it's not all doom and gloom!
Not to be controversial yet brave, but I completely agree with you about keeping the prize to UK/Ireland, or even Commonwealth countries. I was very disappointed to see so many US books on this long list and nothing from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, when there are incredible books published in these countries that get far less attention globally than US-based publishers.
Completely agree with this, and given that the States has so much of its own cultural and economic wealth to support its own industry with other prizes, we really need to invest in the smaller and less privileged industries at home and in countries that often get neglected like you mentioned!
I'm pretty convinced that the Booker is gauging popular opinion and going with that. I will honestly be surprised if Hilary Mantel doesn't win the Booker again. She's already won two. Maybe the judges will award two prizes. If they really want to dig their own grave, they will choose a Black author for the second award. Maybe Kiley Reid. Am I being pessimistic? We'll see. Why aren't other English-speaking regions represented? Why was the US even included a few years ago? I have no problem with literary awards but I'd like some transparency as you say. There hasn't been any. The rules change on a whim. But I just don't read enough modern lit to have the most informed opinion about the books on the list. Maybe two winners was appropriate last year. I had no idea that publishers have to pay to play. That really is a problem for inclusivity.
Yes, I think this “pessimism” is definitely relevant given that there have been so many let downs in the past. The prize hasn’t been able to build up a trust and a rapport with its audience because it isn’t transparent, it isn’t self aware, and it doesn’t define what it is looking for. The double win last year says a lot about how easily the prize can be swayed without having any tight parameters to work within.
The “pay to play” aspect makes it super elitist and exclusive, and you’re right there really needs to be definition around what it’s doing. I also struggle with their international representation and how certain countries and regions are constantly overlooked for the list.
Yeah I can completely appreciate how disappointed you must feel given the lack of Australian representation given how many good and eligible books have been released. The Rain Heron certainly deserves recognition!!! It’s a shame that this helps to bolster elitism and exclusivity, hopefully we can rally and help to bring change to the field.
Great thoughts, very much mesh with my own hatred of the Booker. It did used to just be Commonwealth authors and when they decided to expand it to all countries then a lot of people were worried the US would dominate the prize.
And it seems like they had every reason to be worried! Prizes certainly need some form of delineation just to make it justified and have a sense of identity and strength in its decision making.
I have to admit, that I often have a look at prize lists, also because you see a lot of them on booktube. And I prefer some to others, for many different reasons. The Booker isn't one I really like, if at all, I definitely prefer the international one. Nevertheless you gave me a lot to think about in general.
Yes, I agree, I definitely find that the lists tend to align with my tastes, I've had some rather difficult journeys with shortlisted books before, and it's totally okay to feel meh about the books that a prize tends to favour, it's nice that there are alternatives out there which we can find our tastes within!
@@mcs-books9075 I found your background information especially interesting. I had no clue about all of that and I totally agree with your opinion on that. Also on the lack of diversity e.g. of books from other countries than the UK and the US.
@@ameliareads589 For sure, I think much in the way that people are beginning to become more critical or aware of how they choose to support the fashion industry, I personally apply the same critical thinking and investigation into this industry as it's where I personally feel more invested and motivated to enact change.
Excellent discussion, Matthew! I just recently found out about the 5000 pound caveat to make it to the shortlist and it's just awful for indie publishers. Not to mention all the other issues you discussed.
Thank you, yes it truly is terrible, and with a £1.5 million sponsorship, it makes you wonder exactly WHY they need the fee for “marketing” from the shortlisted publishers... hmmm.
@@mcs-books9075 How else are they going to create that barrier....? 🤔😉
Yes! "pretentious and toxic" describes how I feel about a lot of these prizes. And I agree, rather than giving one writer a big monetary prize, shouldn't organizations who care about literature and art in general work to create a society/programs/etc. that support writers and the arts, rather than just the one writer who wins?
Oooh yes that money/housing stuff is sketchy...
Oh wow I didn't know about England's problem with closed literary societies! YES exactly - arts should be free and open to all, that's part of the POINT.
Absolutely, I'd love to see charities that work with these kind of schemes to negotiate how they can help a wider circle of writers and promote a more inclusive and well-distributed industry. It always pains me to see the publishing industry talking about having no money but then bidding with six to seven figure contract deals for particular writers, couldn't that wealth be distributed better?
10000% agree with all the points you‘ve made and stand behind this completely.
You know how much I cannot stand this idea of an exclusive, elitist idea of what the best literature it is and you had to calm me down many many times about it already 😅😂
As someone who wants to work in the arts field I find it discouraging and very sad to see how much it is all just based on money and connection based on money, especially when you are supposed to „change the industry“ and it‘s just more privilege every damn time.
As a community that prides itself so much with being inclusive and welcoming and open there needs to be a lot more work acknowledging the elitist nature of such prizes and our own approach to literature, because I‘ve seen things and I‘m not pleased 😂
Forever grateful for you and for the work you do to make me more aware of these things and provide a better and healthier industry for my part!
Thank you for the kind comment. Yes it can absolutely be discouraging when you're looking at this side of an industry you want to go into, but that doesn't mean that there isn't work being done to help change that, and we can be a part of that change too!
I think it's hard to be self reflexive when you can get confirmation from your own beliefs, and I think an openness to in depth and nuanced discussions is absolutely key!
It's my understanding that the Booker has a tiered nomination system in which publishers can submit more books for consideration the more often they have been listed in the past? It is beyond me why anbody would implement a system like that when it's obviously the surest way into an echo chamber that you can imagine. But perhaps that was the point all along.
I basically agree with everything from min. 1:00 onwards.
Yes absolutely, the system doesn't make sense to me in the slightest and is very indicative of the values that I don't appreciate. Perhaps you're right, maybe that just is their ambition.
I kept an eye on the Booker for years, but I haven't thought about it much in recent times. I don't dislike the idea behind the prize, but I found that if you followed publishing at all, then the books making it to the shortlist were the ones being hyped tons already. When I was younger, I used to think that those who were shortlisted for the Booker were representative of great fiction, that it was a particularly prestigious award to win. If I didn't like the winner, I'd always question if I simply wasn't smart enough to understand why it had been so successful.
I'll admit that I didn't know much of what you mentioned in this video beforehand. I agree that the amount of money publishers are required to pay for "advertising" means that smaller indie presses won't be able to submit their authors - and these indie presses are where readers are more likely to find working class voices, and they're really the voices I feel I ought to promote. (Even though I haven't paid attention to this at all in recent times.)
I'm not really sure what my perspective on the prize in, but I thank you for sharing yours. Perhaps it will cause me to look more inwardly and think more about the industry and the Booker prize.
I think that is definitely something that needs to be discussed more, the feeling that an institution like the booker prize can create in aspiring readers, I also had that feeling when I was younger that I wasn’t smart enough or well read enough for the booker prize, but I feel now it’s a sign of how it plays on other insecurities that is actually the problem!
I definitely have looked into it more than I normally would because it helps me to understand my feelings and having heard little rumbles here and there before I wanted to get a clearer idea, and it all just doesn’t sit quite right to me.
thanks for this - i never knew what the Man group was, so hearing about their role in the housing crisis was really eye-opening. when i first heard about the "anything published in English in the UK +Ireland" rule i was kind of positive about it, thinking like you about English-language literature from countries like the Philippines or Singapore or Hong Kong that could get a huge boost and raise general awareness about how international the language is, and how it's used to tell stories from so many cultures and experiences - but instead it seems to just be a vehicle for globalisation as led by the US publishing industry, as you say.
Yes, it's such a shame that this is the way our world works, but hopefully we can use our purchase/loaning power to celebrate a more kind and fair bookish ecosystem!
Good points about the criteria for 'best', it's one of the things I've enjoyed hearing about for people judging the Booktube Prize - how different readers go about to rank books against each other, what kind of reasoning is behind the judging. Obviously it means you open yourself up for criticism against those requirements, which I would guess is why the booker opt not to do it? Really enjoyed your discussion, I didn't realize it cost to nominate for the prize so the indie-press aspect had slipped me by.
Yes, I think that's a great thing that the BookTube Prize did to separate themselves, they've been open and transparent and very much community based which makes a real difference in the faith of the outcomes, even if you don't agree! Haha.
I've found this very interesting and informative. It's never been a prize I've been interested in and I feel even more validated now. Thank you
Thank you for the lovely comment!
This was so good to listen to, Matthew. I'm having somewhat mixed feelings about the prize this year! Thank you for the wonderful content. Hope you're doing well x
Thank you, Jasmine!!
I found this so interesting!! I wanted to learn more about these literary awards, I'm so happy you uploaded this.
Glad to hear it! It’s definitely a great start into thinking about the other side of these literary landscapes!
This was so enlightening Matthew! I knew so little about the Booker Prize but I find myself agreeing with everything you said, especially about the criteria and the funding that definitely is against indie authors.
I also realize that a good percentage of my reading, in general, is US made and that truly doesn’t sit well with me, I want to try to change that in the future.
Thanks, Frannie! I’m glad you thought so. I think it’s a great opportunity to read outside of the US, I personally strive to change the narrative that the states are the centre of the English language literary world, and I realised that a big way for me to combat that was to assess how my social media consumption could be less US heavy too.
A great and really insightful and interesting video Matthew 😊. I found some of your points really fascinating and very valid. I must admit I am a prize junkie and love tracking book prizes. I have been following the women’s and the international booker prize this year. But I really enjoyed hearing your opinions on this issue. So thank you Matthew for sharing your thoughts 😊
Awh, thank you so much for the lovely comment, Beth! Yeah, I can totally see the appeal of lots of prizes and they do certainly have a positive impact on people reading books they may not otherwise, so it's not all doom and gloom!
Very true! Xx
Not to be controversial yet brave, but I completely agree with you about keeping the prize to UK/Ireland, or even Commonwealth countries. I was very disappointed to see so many US books on this long list and nothing from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, when there are incredible books published in these countries that get far less attention globally than US-based publishers.
Completely agree with this, and given that the States has so much of its own cultural and economic wealth to support its own industry with other prizes, we really need to invest in the smaller and less privileged industries at home and in countries that often get neglected like you mentioned!
I'm pretty convinced that the Booker is gauging popular opinion and going with that. I will honestly be surprised if Hilary Mantel doesn't win the Booker again. She's already won two. Maybe the judges will award two prizes. If they really want to dig their own grave, they will choose a Black author for the second award. Maybe Kiley Reid. Am I being pessimistic? We'll see. Why aren't other English-speaking regions represented? Why was the US even included a few years ago? I have no problem with literary awards but I'd like some transparency as you say. There hasn't been any. The rules change on a whim. But I just don't read enough modern lit to have the most informed opinion about the books on the list. Maybe two winners was appropriate last year. I had no idea that publishers have to pay to play. That really is a problem for inclusivity.
Yes, I think this “pessimism” is definitely relevant given that there have been so many let downs in the past. The prize hasn’t been able to build up a trust and a rapport with its audience because it isn’t transparent, it isn’t self aware, and it doesn’t define what it is looking for. The double win last year says a lot about how easily the prize can be swayed without having any tight parameters to work within.
The “pay to play” aspect makes it super elitist and exclusive, and you’re right there really needs to be definition around what it’s doing. I also struggle with their international representation and how certain countries and regions are constantly overlooked for the list.
Yeah I can completely appreciate how disappointed you must feel given the lack of Australian representation given how many good and eligible books have been released. The Rain Heron certainly deserves recognition!!!
It’s a shame that this helps to bolster elitism and exclusivity, hopefully we can rally and help to bring change to the field.
Thankyou for calling it out! 🙏
Great thoughts, very much mesh with my own hatred of the Booker. It did used to just be Commonwealth authors and when they decided to expand it to all countries then a lot of people were worried the US would dominate the prize.
And it seems like they had every reason to be worried! Prizes certainly need some form of delineation just to make it justified and have a sense of identity and strength in its decision making.
This video was so interesting and educational. Thank you so much for filming it!
I’m glad you thought so, thanks for watching Lou!
I have to admit, that I often have a look at prize lists, also because you see a lot of them on booktube. And I prefer some to others, for many different reasons. The Booker isn't one I really like, if at all, I definitely prefer the international one. Nevertheless you gave me a lot to think about in general.
Yes, I agree, I definitely find that the lists tend to align with my tastes, I've had some rather difficult journeys with shortlisted books before, and it's totally okay to feel meh about the books that a prize tends to favour, it's nice that there are alternatives out there which we can find our tastes within!
@@mcs-books9075 I found your background information especially interesting. I had no clue about all of that and I totally agree with your opinion on that. Also on the lack of diversity e.g. of books from other countries than the UK and the US.
@@ameliareads589 For sure, I think much in the way that people are beginning to become more critical or aware of how they choose to support the fashion industry, I personally apply the same critical thinking and investigation into this industry as it's where I personally feel more invested and motivated to enact change.