1) What's the end-to-end latency in milliseconds? (i.e. from the first visible twitch of a finger using a high-speed camera until the mouse cursor actually moves on a 60/120/144/etc. Hz screen) 2) How much jitter is in the movement itself? How much extra delay is added by your temporal smoothing method? 3) How will the camera tracking fail if it's completely dark or moderately dark? Non-technical people do not care about the details but they will still "feel" if it sucks at these points. The polling rate of 150 Hz you mentioned is ok for this product category (this number does not say anything about actual end-to-end latency nor jitter, therefore the questions).
You are right, what matters most is how the product feels in real use. If testers find it intuitive and enjoyable, that’s the real success metric. While specs like 150Hz are useful for those who ask, it's what any Bluetooth mouse does. The experiential feedback speaks volumes about the product’s actual value. Positive reactions from testers show we are on the right path! Our ring is designed to work seamlessly in most environments, but it requires at least a minimal light source to function accurately. Even a low-light source, such as the illumination from your screen, should be enough. This need for some light is unlikely to impact typical usage, as our product testers have never mentioned any issues. We share this to keep you fully informed about how the ring works best.
@@astral6749 Hi, this is Marc, one of the co-founders of Padrone and author of most comments. We are a very small team running this startup, financed by us and have been on it for about 10 years. That's the first time I hear that this qualifies as a "Corpo". Can you explain? The ring is great for casual games like the fruit game we often show. However, if you're a competitive player (or aspire to be one) who requires extreme precision and lowest latency, you may want to stick to dedicated gaming mice. We state this all over the place and additionally, the Bluetooth connection makes it clear that the ring (as any Bluetooth mouse) is not for those particular gamers. To make a point why measuring latencies with a high-speed camera makes not much sense for the ring: this latency could be negative! For certain types of clicks, we could make it that the monitor shows a click before your fingertip even touches the surface. For question 2, there is no noticeable jitter, and certainly no "temporal smoothing" as this would increase latency. I understand the question as it might make more sense with the technology of traditional mice, but not with the technology inside the ring. Can you explain what you are missing for question 3? If there is absolutely no light, the ring does not work (how do you see the cursor then?). If there is a tiny little bit of light (coming e.g. from your screen), it works. And we clearly state this in many other places. I could have written in even more detail than I did in this comment. But after talking to 100s of people, I'm pretty sure the first answer is the most interesting for most people. However, if you have a very specific question, I'm more than happy to nerd out.
$280 mouse is a bit much. I appreciate the design and engineering that went into it, but I think you'd have an easier time funding it by lowering the price. That should make people more inclined to invest.
I appreciate your comment and fully understand where you are coming from. The Padrone Primera is the a first-generation Ferrari of mice. Nobody needs a Ferrari, but it's very cool to have one. When you compare it to a Maserati (health/wellness rings), the price of the Primera is at the lower end. Both ring categories aren’t strictly necessary, but they can be really fun and cool for some people.
thank you! Yeah, many sensors are necessary, including image sensors. It's the only way it works perfectly (we know, because we tried everything else 🙂)
not sure what you mean with the hub? a USB-hub? that wouldn't work as other fingers (and other objects) get into the line of sight. It may work a bit better with 2 "hubs", but they need to be very close to your hand, what is also not very practical, portable or reliable. The ring is really the only solution for tracking your fingers precisely and reliable - thus, the only solution for AR for productivity 😊
yes, you can scroll. It's done the same way as on a touchpad: move your index and middle finger up/down and it scrolls. It's way easier to just do it than read it ☺ Typically, middle clicks can be done by tapping your index finger while holding your Command/Ctrl-key.
It's a Bluetooth low energy mouse and it behaves exactly the same. While the update rate gets permanently adapted to your need, the maximal update frequency for Bluetooth LE is said to be 150Hz.
The Padrone Primera provides all the essential functions you’d expect from a traditional mouse, like left/right click, scrolling or drag & drop. It also offers advanced features in combination with the Command/Ctrl key, such as horizontal scrolling and middle click. We noticed that even users with mice that have extra buttons rarely use them. If those additional buttons are a must for you, the MX Master is a great option.
thank you for the tip, I didn't notice. TH-cam has just asked for a verification that may take up to 24h. In comments, links seem to work: www.kickstarter.com/projects/padrone-ring/coolest-mouse-ever
sure, you can draw/write with your index finger like you were on a touchpad. Generally, when your thumb touches your index finger, the virtual "left mouse button" is pressed. So gently touch with your thumb your index finger and draw like a champ! That's also used for drag&drop and it's waaay easier to do than to read in words...
@@QuietHamster you mean drawing with a pen like on a Wacom tablet? that's not yet support with Padrone Primera. Do you often switch between a pen and a touchpad/mouse?
Great suggestion, thank you. We have answered questions in exactly our context, it was the only helpful answer, declared openly who we are and got a mixed response e.g. www.reddit.com/r/SmartRings/comments/1gqbckq/comment/lwx9ic5/ Thus, we certainly love to support and encourage you to spread the word in your subreddit, and same for Discord, Hacker news, etc. We just ask that you follow each platform's culture and community guidelines.
I was curious and calculated that with a battery just the right size for the ring (ML2032 Li-ion with 65 mAh, 3V), assuming a camera consumption of 30 mA (1/4 module), a microprocessor with AI at 50 - 80 mA, and potential position sensors around 5 mA, we get a runtime of about 20 - 40 minutes without sleep modes or optimizations. Of course, this isn’t precise, but it’s still an impressive duration. The future looks promising
To achieve a realistic battery life, why not have two rings, one for the process and the other solely for the battery, and have them communicate energy wirelessly through inductive coupling from one to the other ?
@@NAS-on9dm your numbers were about right in 2014, when we started this project. We would never sell a ring with such a short battery life and we are proud that the battery now lasts for a working day. In particular, all consumers are more than 10 times better nowadays, while compute performance is 100 times higher. Such big leaps were essential to make the Padrone Primera even possible. And that's why we believe, the ring is truly magical! ☺
I left another comment but there must have been a bug because I can't find it anymore. This product is basically the same thing the tap strap 2 but with less functionnality (no keyboard and no "air mouse" thing where you control by like pointing at the screen, it doesn't work great but it's there) and is 2 times more expensive. Why would you buy that when it basically already exist ? To note : the tap strap is also too expensive and very disappointing once you have it in hand. The API for it is not open enough to do really fun thing and the multi-device connectivity isn't great, if I can't easily switch from connecting to my PC, to connecting to my phone or laptop, I might as well just use the existing keyboard and mouse.
yeah, comments on TH-cam are currently a mess. For example, we cannot add links at the moment. Let me cite you an answer I have given on our Kickstarter campaign and also applies to the Tab Strap 2: "Clip mice have been around for years, but they've all relied on basic motion sensors - gyroscopes and accelerometers tracking movement in three dimensions. While functional, these simple sensors can't deliver the precision needed for detailed computer work. At best, they serve as basic pointing devices for presentations or similar casual uses. The Padrone Primera is very different. It transforms your desk into a true touchpad, matching the precision, speed, and functionality you'd expect from a trackpad. To achieve this level of accuracy, we've developed an advanced sensor array that includes optical tracking alongside traditional motion sensors. Don't just take our word for it - watch our unedited demonstration video to see the difference yourself. Better yet, we invite you to experience the Primera firsthand at one of our preview sessions." I think you have already given the same answer in your comment: the issue with the Tap Strap is that "it doesn't work great". And it's impossible that it could ever work great with its current technology. Compare this to Padrone Primera: it works, it works exactly like a touchpad, and is much cooler 🙂 If you have any questions, I’d love to clarify any of these points! Over the past 10 years of working on the ring, we’ve gained numerous insights and experiences. And we’re excited to share how this ring truly embodies something new and magical. Don’t hesitate to reach out!
thank you! The Padrone Primera supports left-click and right-click. We have not found that many people using middle clicks. Would love to hear your use case? CAD? Typically, middle-clicks can be done while holding the Command/Ctrl-key.
Gaming is the other big one for me. There's a decent market for lightweight mice, like the Logitech superlights, razer viper v2/v3 pro, etc. and this would blow them out of the water (although latency/response time is also really important for gaming)
@@Searqq The ring is great for casual gaming. With 0.3 ounce/8 grams, it is also much lighter than any mouse. If you are a competitive gamer where every millisecond counts, however, you will find dedicated gaming mice with much lower latency.
wirklich cool. Wird es verschiedene Designoptionen oder individuelle Gravuren geben, um den Ring persönlicher zu gestalten? Wie lange dauert es voraussichtlich, bis er in die Hände der Unterstützer gelangt?
ganz herzlichen Dank! Das Design der Gravur bestimmst du, das heisst es wird nur 1 Ring mit deiner Gravur geben. Mit dem eingravierten Text natürlich dasselbe. Da hast du auf 2 Linien Platz für jeweils 16 Buchstaben. Die Auslieferung des Rings ist im Mai 2025. Marc, co-founder
You replied in a previous comment that, " we are proud that the battery now lasts for a working day. In particular, all consumers are more than 10 times better nowadays, while compute performance is 100 times higher " I’m really curious how you managed to achieve such long battery life with a computing power that’s 100 times greater, especially since I was referring to recent technology. Is it possible to get more information on this? There’s no information on your Kickstarter page.
I’m also looking at similar projects, like the VANZY mouse ring, which uses a 3.7V 165mAh battery for its premium version. How are you able to achieve a ring with 10 times more battery capacity while using image processing and AI systems that are indeed 100 times more power-intensive than what VANZY offers? I’m really interested.
@@NAS-on9dm When it comes to the power envelope, you will find (even publicly) much better components than the ones you mentioned. For example you mentioned a "microprocessor", you might assume ARM processors for these. They lagged far behind a few years back in power consumption and compute power. Make some assumptions about the camera resolution and the required update rate for a responsive mouse, and you will see that those "legacy" microprocessors don't cut it. So something new and very advanced makes the magic in the ring. Battery capacity improves indeed only slowly, maybe 1-4% per year? That's why we were talking about consumers, the things that consume energy. Unfortunately, we cannot go much more into the details - some parties have already shown interest in non-friendly ways... But that just shows how unique and exciting the Padrone Primera really is 🙂
actually here is the usecase i would love being integrated or looked at. i am using my laptop with the touchpad normally or docked and using the monitor right. I then have my android phone and tablet sitting on the left and right not that easy to reach. Since windows and android doesn't communicate well, i want to be able to wake the phone or tablet up as example with this ring. and then via it play or skip forward in a video. or open an app etc.
Desktop users don't have a trackpad. Laptop users can use their trackpad but many chose to use a mouse, external trackpad, ergonomic mouse and now also the Padrone Primera. The ring performs as good as a trackpad. Our testers would argue that it works much better because they can have their preferred posture of hand/arm/shoulder, but that's subjective. It's great to have many choices, and you should pick the one you prefer. The ring claims to be the coolest (and also useful for your posture, ultra-portable, etc)
You should reach out to Basically Homeless, he'd love this on his invisible pc build lol
lol he said "instead of taking 15 years to build" the mouse 2.0, but it took us only 10 years 😃
For maximum invisibility, put it on your ring finger.
1) What's the end-to-end latency in milliseconds? (i.e. from the first visible twitch of a finger using a high-speed camera until the mouse cursor actually moves on a 60/120/144/etc. Hz screen)
2) How much jitter is in the movement itself? How much extra delay is added by your temporal smoothing method?
3) How will the camera tracking fail if it's completely dark or moderately dark?
Non-technical people do not care about the details but they will still "feel" if it sucks at these points.
The polling rate of 150 Hz you mentioned is ok for this product category (this number does not say anything about actual end-to-end latency nor jitter, therefore the questions).
You are right, what matters most is how the product feels in real use. If testers find it intuitive and enjoyable, that’s the real success metric. While specs like 150Hz are useful for those who ask, it's what any Bluetooth mouse does. The experiential feedback speaks volumes about the product’s actual value. Positive reactions from testers show we are on the right path!
Our ring is designed to work seamlessly in most environments, but it requires at least a minimal light source to function accurately. Even a low-light source, such as the illumination from your screen, should be enough. This need for some light is unlikely to impact typical usage, as our product testers have never mentioned any issues. We share this to keep you fully informed about how the ring works best.
Corpo above me said a lot of nothing
@@astral6749 Hi, this is Marc, one of the co-founders of Padrone and author of most comments. We are a very small team running this startup, financed by us and have been on it for about 10 years. That's the first time I hear that this qualifies as a "Corpo". Can you explain?
The ring is great for casual games like the fruit game we often show. However, if you're a competitive player (or aspire to be one) who requires extreme precision and lowest latency, you may want to stick to dedicated gaming mice. We state this all over the place and additionally, the Bluetooth connection makes it clear that the ring (as any Bluetooth mouse) is not for those particular gamers. To make a point why measuring latencies with a high-speed camera makes not much sense for the ring: this latency could be negative! For certain types of clicks, we could make it that the monitor shows a click before your fingertip even touches the surface.
For question 2, there is no noticeable jitter, and certainly no "temporal smoothing" as this would increase latency. I understand the question as it might make more sense with the technology of traditional mice, but not with the technology inside the ring.
Can you explain what you are missing for question 3? If there is absolutely no light, the ring does not work (how do you see the cursor then?). If there is a tiny little bit of light (coming e.g. from your screen), it works. And we clearly state this in many other places.
I could have written in even more detail than I did in this comment. But after talking to 100s of people, I'm pretty sure the first answer is the most interesting for most people. However, if you have a very specific question, I'm more than happy to nerd out.
$280 mouse is a bit much. I appreciate the design and engineering that went into it, but I think you'd have an easier time funding it by lowering the price. That should make people more inclined to invest.
I appreciate your comment and fully understand where you are coming from. The Padrone Primera is the a first-generation Ferrari of mice. Nobody needs a Ferrari, but it's very cool to have one. When you compare it to a Maserati (health/wellness rings), the price of the Primera is at the lower end. Both ring categories aren’t strictly necessary, but they can be really fun and cool for some people.
cool to see this originating from switzerland, I did not expect it to be vision based ! congrats, looking forward to testing it
thank you! Yeah, many sensors are necessary, including image sensors. It's the only way it works perfectly (we know, because we tried everything else 🙂)
For power put some finger heat energy generator in it.
size it up and we can get tip vision on the hub!
not sure what you mean with the hub? a USB-hub? that wouldn't work as other fingers (and other objects) get into the line of sight. It may work a bit better with 2 "hubs", but they need to be very close to your hand, what is also not very practical, portable or reliable. The ring is really the only solution for tracking your fingers precisely and reliable - thus, the only solution for AR for productivity 😊
@@padrone.design makes sense. i wonder what use cases could be had if you used both hands at once
@@osagiethegreat a ring on each hand will give a keyboard, but it's too early to talk about this 😎
Does it have the ability to activate a scroll wheel, or a middle mouse button press?
It would be ideal for people with arthritis, and gamers.
yes, you can scroll. It's done the same way as on a touchpad: move your index and middle finger up/down and it scrolls. It's way easier to just do it than read it ☺
Typically, middle clicks can be done by tapping your index finger while holding your Command/Ctrl-key.
What's the polling rate of the mouse?
It's a Bluetooth low energy mouse and it behaves exactly the same. While the update rate gets permanently adapted to your need, the maximal update frequency for Bluetooth LE is said to be 150Hz.
How do you manage the multiple buttons for professionals usage?, for example with like Logitech MX Master 3?
The Padrone Primera provides all the essential functions you’d expect from a traditional mouse, like left/right click, scrolling or drag & drop. It also offers advanced features in combination with the Command/Ctrl key, such as horizontal scrolling and middle click. We noticed that even users with mice that have extra buttons rarely use them. If those additional buttons are a must for you, the MX Master is a great option.
You might want to fix the kickstarter link in your description, does not work
thank you for the tip, I didn't notice. TH-cam has just asked for a verification that may take up to 24h. In comments, links seem to work: www.kickstarter.com/projects/padrone-ring/coolest-mouse-ever
How about drawing or hand writing with it?
sure, you can draw/write with your index finger like you were on a touchpad. Generally, when your thumb touches your index finger, the virtual "left mouse button" is pressed. So gently touch with your thumb your index finger and draw like a champ! That's also used for drag&drop and it's waaay easier to do than to read in words...
TH-cam currently block links, sorry. When you go to www.padrone.design and then /go#dragging , you get a picture
@padrone.design can you actually hold a pen to draw while eating the ring?
@@QuietHamster you mean drawing with a pen like on a Wacom tablet? that's not yet support with Padrone Primera. Do you often switch between a pen and a touchpad/mouse?
You should try to post on other platforms like reddit on differents subs etc.
Great suggestion, thank you. We have answered questions in exactly our context, it was the only helpful answer, declared openly who we are and got a mixed response e.g. www.reddit.com/r/SmartRings/comments/1gqbckq/comment/lwx9ic5/
Thus, we certainly love to support and encourage you to spread the word in your subreddit, and same for Discord, Hacker news, etc. We just ask that you follow each platform's culture and community guidelines.
Very cool. What’s the battery life?
@fajam00m00 thank you! It's a typical working day. The Kickstarter campaign has all the details.
thank you! It's a typical working day. The Kickstarter campaign has all the details.
I was curious and calculated that with a battery just the right size for the ring (ML2032 Li-ion with 65 mAh, 3V), assuming a camera consumption of 30 mA (1/4 module), a microprocessor with AI at 50 - 80 mA, and potential position sensors around 5 mA, we get a runtime of about 20 - 40 minutes without sleep modes or optimizations. Of course, this isn’t precise, but it’s still an impressive duration. The future looks promising
To achieve a realistic battery life, why not have two rings, one for the process and the other solely for the battery, and have them communicate energy wirelessly through inductive coupling from one to the other ?
@@NAS-on9dm your numbers were about right in 2014, when we started this project. We would never sell a ring with such a short battery life and we are proud that the battery now lasts for a working day. In particular, all consumers are more than 10 times better nowadays, while compute performance is 100 times higher. Such big leaps were essential to make the Padrone Primera even possible. And that's why we believe, the ring is truly magical! ☺
I left another comment but there must have been a bug because I can't find it anymore.
This product is basically the same thing the tap strap 2 but with less functionnality (no keyboard and no "air mouse" thing where you control by like pointing at the screen, it doesn't work great but it's there) and is 2 times more expensive.
Why would you buy that when it basically already exist ?
To note : the tap strap is also too expensive and very disappointing once you have it in hand. The API for it is not open enough to do really fun thing and the multi-device connectivity isn't great, if I can't easily switch from connecting to my PC, to connecting to my phone or laptop, I might as well just use the existing keyboard and mouse.
yeah, comments on TH-cam are currently a mess. For example, we cannot add links at the moment. Let me cite you an answer I have given on our Kickstarter campaign and also applies to the Tab Strap 2:
"Clip mice have been around for years, but they've all relied on basic motion sensors - gyroscopes and accelerometers tracking movement in three dimensions. While functional, these simple sensors can't deliver the precision needed for detailed computer work. At best, they serve as basic pointing devices for presentations or similar casual uses.
The Padrone Primera is very different. It transforms your desk into a true touchpad, matching the precision, speed, and functionality you'd expect from a trackpad. To achieve this level of accuracy, we've developed an advanced sensor array that includes optical tracking alongside traditional motion sensors. Don't just take our word for it - watch our unedited demonstration video to see the difference yourself. Better yet, we invite you to experience the Primera firsthand at one of our preview sessions."
I think you have already given the same answer in your comment: the issue with the Tap Strap is that "it doesn't work great". And it's impossible that it could ever work great with its current technology. Compare this to Padrone Primera: it works, it works exactly like a touchpad, and is much cooler 🙂
If you have any questions, I’d love to clarify any of these points! Over the past 10 years of working on the ring, we’ve gained numerous insights and experiences. And we’re excited to share how this ring truly embodies something new and magical. Don’t hesitate to reach out!
Cool! Does it support middle click? If it does, I'd like to buy it.
thank you! The Padrone Primera supports left-click and right-click. We have not found that many people using middle clicks. Would love to hear your use case? CAD? Typically, middle-clicks can be done while holding the Command/Ctrl-key.
@@padrone.designI always use it to open links in new tabs and to enable move to scroll
Gaming is the other big one for me. There's a decent market for lightweight mice, like the Logitech superlights, razer viper v2/v3 pro, etc. and this would blow them out of the water (although latency/response time is also really important for gaming)
@@Searqq The ring is great for casual gaming. With 0.3 ounce/8 grams, it is also much lighter than any mouse. If you are a competitive gamer where every millisecond counts, however, you will find dedicated gaming mice with much lower latency.
Good for office use, but not competitive gaming. Looking forward to a Padrone Veloce or Aegis gaming lineup soon!
How does it charge?
You attach the ring magnetically to a USB cable and then it takes less than 60 minutes. You find an image of the charging on the Kickstarter page.
wirklich cool. Wird es verschiedene Designoptionen oder individuelle Gravuren geben, um den Ring persönlicher zu gestalten? Wie lange dauert es voraussichtlich, bis er in die Hände der Unterstützer gelangt?
ganz herzlichen Dank! Das Design der Gravur bestimmst du, das heisst es wird nur 1 Ring mit deiner Gravur geben. Mit dem eingravierten Text natürlich dasselbe. Da hast du auf 2 Linien Platz für jeweils 16 Buchstaben. Die Auslieferung des Rings ist im Mai 2025. Marc, co-founder
You replied in a previous comment that, " we are proud that the battery now lasts for a working day. In particular, all consumers are more than 10 times better nowadays, while compute performance is 100 times higher " I’m really curious how you managed to achieve such long battery life with a computing power that’s 100 times greater, especially since I was referring to recent technology. Is it possible to get more information on this? There’s no information on your Kickstarter page.
I’m also looking at similar projects, like the VANZY mouse ring, which uses a 3.7V 165mAh battery for its premium version. How are you able to achieve a ring with 10 times more battery capacity while using image processing and AI systems that are indeed 100 times more power-intensive than what VANZY offers? I’m really interested.
@@NAS-on9dm When it comes to the power envelope, you will find (even publicly) much better components than the ones you mentioned. For example you mentioned a "microprocessor", you might assume ARM processors for these. They lagged far behind a few years back in power consumption and compute power.
Make some assumptions about the camera resolution and the required update rate for a responsive mouse, and you will see that those "legacy" microprocessors don't cut it. So something new and very advanced makes the magic in the ring.
Battery capacity improves indeed only slowly, maybe 1-4% per year? That's why we were talking about consumers, the things that consume energy.
Unfortunately, we cannot go much more into the details - some parties have already shown interest in non-friendly ways... But that just shows how unique and exciting the Padrone Primera really is 🙂
What happens when you use it in the dark? Are there videos of you doing fast mouse movements with it?
The ring needs a tiny bit of light. We have an unedited, raw video embedded in the Kickstarter campaign. It can capture fast movements very well.
actually here is the usecase i would love being integrated or looked at. i am using my laptop with the touchpad normally or docked and using the monitor right. I then have my android phone and tablet sitting on the left and right not that easy to reach. Since windows and android doesn't communicate well, i want to be able to wake the phone or tablet up as example with this ring. and then via it play or skip forward in a video. or open an app etc.
I don't entirely see the point? Why not just use an external trackpad? I doubt it would perform better.
Desktop users don't have a trackpad. Laptop users can use their trackpad but many chose to use a mouse, external trackpad, ergonomic mouse and now also the Padrone Primera. The ring performs as good as a trackpad. Our testers would argue that it works much better because they can have their preferred posture of hand/arm/shoulder, but that's subjective.
It's great to have many choices, and you should pick the one you prefer. The ring claims to be the coolest (and also useful for your posture, ultra-portable, etc)
If you ship, send me one and I'll review it.
No one knows you