The death of the midrange Yu-Gi-Oh deck.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Aggro? Control? Where does the traditional midrange Yu-Gi-Oh deck designation fit into the modern game? Let's discuss.
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_It's tough being the middle child._
The reason why nothing is truly midrange or control anymore is that combo decks have gotten so good and unpunishable with over-extending, that every other deck needs to either play only cards that combo to keep up, or play a bunch of handtraps just to deny the opponent. This result has ruined a lot of traditional deckbuilding skills and the overall tempo of the game.
Best yougioh was played around the goat format era
Yeah since you could once play defensive yet that got ruined due to speed going out of control.
IDK about control since last time eldlich was at full power control was king. But midrange totally I don't remember the last time I saw a mid
Brahded swordsiuld probably
I just made a vampire deck and took it into master due. I got a field spell and a continuous spell and 2 monsters on the field, and my opponent just sat there for a minute and instantly quit. Then, I used vampire vampire to take my opponents synchro card and attacked and ended my turn. The dude still had backrow and 2 cards in his hand. Before he even drew a card, he instantly quit. I didn't even have game yet, and I only had vampire vampire on the field. Like unless he had no monsters in his hand and absolutely nothing to stop my attack or reduce the damage, I feel like he could have pulled something off, especially since he was playing speedroid.
It's because they rather quit with a bricked hand than play it legit and get their combo maybe turn 3-4. It shows how bad the player base is getting when they're pulling that due it shows they only want to run over players.
I know you guys get smacked with the "Always Negative About The Game" label but I think you guys give some really good ideas and talk about genuine problems of the game. Thank you for the insight.
People who want to pretend Yugioh hasn't been mostly negative in recent years are fools. There's many problems with Yugioh from price to gameplay to card design in general. Konami needs to step in and acknowledge these problems with Yugioh and address them otherwise Yugioh will only continue to get worse and players will continue to leave to find a cheaper card game that's actually balanced and feels like the company behind it actually cares about the card game itself rather than just milking the mindless cattle who'll buy the product regardless.
@@LunaticKD1991 I do know is that there are a lot of issues with the pricing, but there’s nothing stopping you from playing those cheaper Decks out there. For example, suship. You can make the entirety of that deck in less than $10. You could even play Gate Guardian for an absurd Lee low price.
@@LunaticKD1991 You be surprised how many YGO players STILL go to official Konami events and get cards they don't have through secondary market/vendors or actual Konami official card products despite knowing (or not) Konami's business actions and decision-making to their formats. It's absurd and really isn't helping the future of the card game to receive progressive changes potentially for the better. YuGiOh will continue to not receive any of those changes for a good while no matter how hard you try to convince others to join in a riot.
@@LunaticKD1991 literally
@@arrebennett2602 of course there is nothing stopping them, but they sure will get they butt kicked for playing suship against fire king-snake eyes
It used to be that when a combo decks board was broken, they couldn't recover easily, let alone have enough resources to immediately pop off again the next turn. That element being gone for the most part removed the only disadvantage combo had, which in turn made it the overall best style to play.
Now it's only due to how people play by dumping their whole deck. When before you would bait out mistakes then dump out your combo. The game is ironically braindead due to players simply wanting to flex the combo instead of playing it properly
@@ExeErdna What is properly to you? If a deck like Snake-Eyes can go off each turn then why wouldn't they. The problem is how Konami has been designing cards since Ash Blossom released. They feel that Ash justifies these broken effects and it shows
@@stonalisa3729 It isn't Ash that kicked off the issue it's honestly was Stardust Dragon. If not the Dragon Rulers. Konami had to crackdown on them and they ending up not looking at how you play the game. Which is why they so hard up on Archetypes working only for the archetype. So now archetypes run over each other. Thus enabling the power creepy design perspective.
You guys realize what a content creating machine Paul is?
You're too kind 😊
and its not nonsense content its actually great conversation
content is his middle name
He synergizes well with cyber dragons because he is also machine type
To be honest, I haven’t even thought of the game in terms of the basic card game archetypes (aggro, midrange, control) since I started playing again around 2018. It’s only basic deck builds in my head for the modern game are “going first” or “going second” decks
That's sort of what I was thinking. Yugioh doesn't really have the same mappable archetypes that other games (i.e, Magic) do. Even when I've seen people discuss the concept in regards to yugioh before, there's only ever two: Combo and Stun, which essentially boils down to "Are you trying to summon 9 monsters in one turn?", or "Are you trying to set 5 and pass?". Very rarely I'll see "Tempo" used for a deck that's somewhere in the middle.
hahahaha and that is basically aggro and control in a nutshell. In that regard midrange is a deck that want to go first sometimes and sometimes seconds. Depends on the MU
Combos decks with 15+ 1 card starters make everyother deck irrelevant, then 5-10 extenders, then 15-20 hand traps, thats all toxic to yugioh imo
Swordsoul perfect example of midrange deck and completely power creeped
Yugioh is so damn confusing for me at this point, I just collect the cards for the esthetics and value. The intricacies of the game at this point are far beyond my understanding and its discouraging.
Same!! That's why my locals only allow goat format
Aggro/combo/control doesn't even apply to modern yugioh. Every deck save dedicated going second decks have massive one card combos turns 1 and 2, almost every meta deck aims to make an unbreakable board with disruption and negation on board to stonewall the opponent, and almost every deck can put 8000+ damage on board and almost all games are 2-3 turns. Decks are running as many as 20 hand traps, and they're not struggling to do so because engines are so powerful and redundant that you can run like an 18-21 card engine and it'll run circles around old decks that were like 30+ engine.
Midrange can't exist in a game where games effectively end turn 1 or 2 because they're defined by the back and forth.
I think it's rather telling that honestly most control decks these days it's frankly hard to tell them apart from combo decks since they usually end on the same set of extra deck monsters by and large
Mid range is exactly what i play in magic. I see nothing similar in Yugioh personally everyhing feels either too comboy or controlly.
That's a completely valid opinion, my favorite yugioh decks were midrange but more midrange control decks, but there has been such a divide recently that control decks just are or at least feel more like, turn off all opponent interaction and combo is, make everything to stop u this turn or kill you this turn and its so fucking much you just scoop at some points if you don't draw certain cards. but I guess I've leaned more into combo ever since then. RIP my midrange decks.
I notice a similar thing in master duel. I hang out around the silver-gold area because I'm a casual player, but I also max out the DC cup each time it comes around. You'd think that I would get a lot of variety in what I fight... but I don't. I only encounter 5 different decks:
Dark Magician
Blue-Eyes
The Newest set to be released (Snake-eyes)
The "meta" deck (Transaction Rollback Turbo)
The previous "meta" deck (Superheavy Samurai)
Throughout those 100 or so duels in the DC cup I have encountered... one tri-brigade player, two mathmech players, one punk gold-pride, one chain-burn, and one person playing anti-meta. Also in the low ranks I encountered one Earthbound OTK (not the new earthbound cards), and that was a treat. Seriously, there's no variety in what I fight. I can't remember the last time I saw something like admanacipator, PKfire, nekroz, purrely, scareclaw, ghoti, drytron, thunder dragon, sprite, etc. and so on.
This may be an aside, but what I'm getting at here is that the lack of midrange decks is partly a player issue. It isn't that these decks and strategies don't exist. It is that the playerbase, by and large, doesn't care about them. Most people are either meta sheeple, or they're gen-wunners.
I’m plat 4/5 level at least now you can see some variety, solphonics, swordsoul (thank te lord for that starter deck), paleos, zombie synchro (I really like that deck and wish I had that mirror)
But yeah old meta is really common kash, tier,
Honestly I think the best match I’ve had recently was against brand I was tenyi swordsoul they were playing pure and although the match only lasted 2 turns we both had pretty great hands and could set up
They went first set up there board including that 1 card which docs your life points every time you activate a monster effect and I ended with a chanxing, baroone and besercer and though careful playing send half his board back to the ED and swung for lethal with only 2000 life points
Man I love yugioh but it does bum me out when I go to locals and it’s literally all snake eyes fire kings
How are your experiences? My bucket list is going to a YGO event in real life but I live in UK and a brokie. I can't even imagine saving up for a few months then getting stomped on by snake eye virgins
@@LowTierScrub if you got to TCG player and try to order from the same shops to save money on shipping you can make a deck for pretty cheap! I play a lot of predaplant, kozmo, invoked dogmatika shaddoll and those are very cheap and decent decks, when it comes to locals everyone wants to win so just have fun don’t worry about winning or loosing just have a good time and learn. On the other hand I like playing my buddies at home with rogue decks, lot more interaction and less stomping and more fun lol overall locals is cool once and awhile but otherwise I’d find a few friends to play with. Grab some structure decks and start there!
@@FROMTHEHEARTYT aw thanks man that's epic I like when people put effort into replies
Ahhh shaddols! They've caught my eye tbh I like the gimmick and artworks wow I'm gonna try them out, how is Yubel btw didn't she just have upgrades? Would she be considered a rogue deck or do I have a chance against negates
The store thing really good also. A proper website would be better than Amazon LOL. Yeah true about structure decks also! I have brought a few but not done the X3 trick
@@FROMTHEHEARTYT and thanks btw yeah everyone wants to win so I have to remember that. Just don't like snake eyes 😡 I dont wanna deal with those guys in real life....can you just politely insta forfeit/go for a dump while theyre still summoning? Sorry for many questions just nice when people don't gatekeep
@@LowTierScrub no, no problem! And if your at a locals I mean you can probably surrender but I wouldn’t personally, I’d just talk to them and hangout, loosing sucks specially in yugioh but you are at a mini tournament so it is what it is lol also not all locals are all top tier players just gotta go see and find out you know. I loose every time I go but I have fun talking to people and getting the ots packs for playing q: like I said, find some friends to play with and what not and learn together if you can
Voiceless in my opinion is the best a mid range deck can be. Has multiple pathways, can play around certain hand traps but the steps to get there are very small. Has options for extra deck extensions or just pure control versions. a Good mid range deck should be able to slot themselves into a control or combo deck strategy
Going to be honest, I think its dumb applying hearthstone and similar game's terminology to yugioh. Trying to label now is especially difficult, because if you go back 10 years ago, things were all either OTK/FTK/or this "mid-range". Yugioh at its core game play is "mid-range". So we never called it things like that. You just say what a deck is and that's what it is. "What are you playing?" "Blackwings" not "mid-range" "what are you playing?" "Chain-burn", "stun", "Mermail" "Wind-ups" "spellbooks" etc. the need to put as some sort of umbrella term is just something that stems from other games and its really not necessary.
All this video boils down to is personal preferences; such terms like “mid-range” are relatively meaningless in the modern game because most Decks can easily dish out 8,000 worth of damage over a single turn. Are we really going to pretend that a Deck like “Vanquish Soul” can’t OTK against an empty board much like a combo Deck can? Or that “Vanquish Soul” is just as capable of denying your opponent resources by repeating interrupting/destroying your opponent’s cards on their own turn, much like a massive board full of omni-negates?
The mental gymnastics in this video is downright atrocious.
Personally I think thinking about yugioh by using terms like midrange that come from card games like mtg and hearthstone where there is mana that ramps up is just wrong. We should come up with other terms to explain modern yugioh decks. I realised this when farfa and josh had a discussion about "combo" decks. Damn near every yugioh deck has to "combo" to some degree, the difference comes in where and how the decks interact.
I think Monkeyfight's new video on powercreep covered the reason behind this pretty well
The 3 effect rule is real frfr, just see any of the new Trickstar or Gimmick Puppet support
Honestly peoples that call you too negative on the game are whales that will actually kill the game because they refuse to aknowledge the game problems, especially the lack of new casual players, watching someone play solitaire for 10 minutes isn't fun for normal peoples
It is really hard to categorize current yugioh decks into Aggro / Control / Combo / Midrange / Tempo. I feel like those concepts were more applicable on retro formats like goat, edison, and so on. Today it feels to me like almost every yugioh deck is a Combo deck, and it can also tend to have some aggro elements or control elements in it. Sometimes we can still see what would be like a "pure control deck", which would be like Paul described, a stun/prison deck. I also play magic the gathering, and if you show a recent yugioh match to some mtg players, they wil think that every yugioh deck is combo. Actually, in my opinion, it has been more than 10 years since yugioh transformed into a battle of combo decks.
Fr those decks only exist if you can't OTK turn 3
Two examples of Midrange decks I thought of was Ghoti and Nemleria. Ghoti ramps up over time, setting up on turn 1-2, and pushing for game on turn 3+. The deck does not combo insanely like shs, but can control your opponent somewhat with the many banish disruption ghoti has. With Nemleria, the deck leans more towards control, but can end on powerful monsters, and can play powerful engines such as Adventure, Diabellstar, and Dogmatika. The deck could also play dimensional fissure and shifter for control. I consider these 2 midrange (also you should play either or both in a video someday!)
The problem is the ideal strategy for modern yugioh is to simply not let your opponent play. Essentially every deck wants to be control. Doesn’t matter if you have a combo deck when your combos just end in big monsters with numerous negates
I don't think combo and control are opposite. Combo is the opposite go a good stuff pile, while control is the opposite of aggro.
I think yugioh players have a very fucked up definition of control. yugioh players seem to think stun decks are the only form of control when I honestly think control leans more toward vanquish souls, where there's tons of reactive interaction but not way too long of a combo, they just kinda make rock a search a little on turn 1
I think control is more Altergeists, especially before the latest support.
I think the issue is that aggro combo decks sort of either are all midrange, or easily pivot into midrange. Like diabellestar/snake eyes for example. Yea they combo like crazy, but they could also just sit on diabellestar, a luciella and some snake eyes grind stuff if for some reason it came to it.
My view of modern Yugioh or has i called post-PePe yugioh is this (dragon rulers were not the shifting point, was PePe): Stun, Mid-Combo, Super Combo.
Stun decks are what people would usually call "control", but they're not they are just stun decks. A lot of the same people that are demonizing runicks are some that love Sky Striker, as a control deck that was fair for the game it wasn't. The best Sky Striker moments in yugioh are two Kaiser Coliseum and Mystic mine. That's it. A more modern stun would be runick stun and Labrynth stun (used by Dinh-Kah Bui, one of the greatest ever, so think well before demonizing stun decks).
Mid-Combo are what would be called mid range, but mid combo in my opinion is a better word to describe. This would be unchained, combo runicks, purrely, rescue ace. Some have more combos others less. This in my opinion is the best way to approach a format.
And then super combos, they just want to ftk or semi-ftk, if they are too oppressive they completely shape the meta into a lot of handtraps, like snake eyes or Superheavy, or in past b.a.s.e.d or adventurer punk, or every scythe lock deck.
That's how I view post-PePe yugioh. Trying to squeeze Yugioh into terms that were used to describe decks from 10-15-20 years ago is not good for the evolution of the game and for new players understanding. Not saying that my description is perfect, i think is just a step out of the darkness.
Peace brother 🤟🏽😸♠️
There's no distinct real deck style in *modern* Yugioh.
Decks are melting pots of every deck type all in one deck now (some just sway to one type more than others): aggro/combo/control.
There's no such thing as a mid-range deck because Yugioh *doesn't* have a mid-game, it's just: starting point->end board over and over again. There's no gradual buildup of an overall plan over multiple turns.
*Any* deck can have negates, handtraps, board-breakers, card draw, floodgates placed into them. Most decks can OTK on turn 2. Branded can do that very easily. Lab, Traptrix, Amazement, Altergeist can have their boss monsters in play on their 1st turn.
Aggro decks? Why would you need an aggro deck when you can flood the field so easily and everything can attack the turn it's summoned?
There's an old MTG article that goes into why having balanced pacing between deck styles is *very* important called: *Philosophy of Combo, by Melissa DeTora* . It's a very good read.
The Yu-Gi-Oh community really needs to push older formats (like Edison ) it's the only way to make older decks playable.
Everything is just a combo deck. The wincons are just different but everything does combo.
I've always found this thinking rather narrow. Just like people have always said "Yugioh isn't like other card games," the same kind of applies here. Yugioh doesn't have traditional deck archetypes, and we really only use terms like "control" and "aggro" out of a weird obligation to fit in with other card games.
Maybe once upon a time you could easily categorize Yugioh decks, but that hasn't been for a very long time.
Some of thr problems for alot of decks is, if you look at alot of the cards/decks.
Alot of them feel like they were made with a sealed environment, without everyone running handtraps that facilitate the need of needing starters that +2 you and now you need +3 starters otherwise whats the point?
Its like when you look at the 'heart of rhe underdog' format and they make a banlist that floats around the idea of keeping meta defining cards out you see some archtypes really shine using the tools that they have, otherwise whats the point?
And until you have a massive banlist happen to 'fix' the issue we aren't going to see midrange decks be able to flourish because the top combo will just stomp on it.
Its like beetroopers is a great archtype that does alot of link climbing and getting materials moved around but at the end of the day whats it really able to do without a strong starter.... Vaylantz you'd think an archtype all about moving cards around could put up a fight against snake eyes.....
But isn't pure snake eyes midrange? Because I the way I play it feels midrange. And honestly I actually love the the recursion and the grind game potential. It actually made me reinstall master duel because I feel more in control of the game state at all times.
I don’t know. The TCG format is forcing me to play unfair. So I guess I like playing decks that are unfair to opponent. I’m too nice in real life. So why should I be in Yugioh?
Also I do the same on master duel. Fossil dyna lock with super heavy’s lets go!
Rarity Collection didn't bring it back like it was suppossed to. We had a few good months where any of 40 decks could have topped a regional before AGOV wiped it all out.
Pure Fire King could have been the best Mid-range deck in a long while if Snake-Eyes didn't warp it into something so much stronger.
Midrange don't exist in YGO, just destroy your opponent in 1 to 2 turns😭
I would say a mid range deck is something that can be aggressive if it wants to be but has some control elements in it, as well as good recursion.
It’s hard to pinpoint one directly but I think swordsoul in master duel (at least the way I play it) is a good example of a mid range deck. It combos but not to the degree as something like SHS and it has control through Protos and blackout but it’s not an overwhelming presence.
Zombies and Fiends had those setups until too many of those decks just became too slow
Definitions as I understand them.
Combo - A deck that makes plays from using small monsters going into big monsters building a giant field. (Synchrons for example)
Aggro - Decks that want to end the game as quickly as possible, either through FTKs or OTKing, usually your going 2nd decks. (Hieratic or even Cyber Dragons)
Mid Range - A deck that makes smaller boards with great recovery to rebuild said boards. (Branded pre-Cartesia)
Control - A deck that limits what the opponent can do. (Floo, Umi Control)
Now most modern decks do have an element where aspects of the deck are coming from multiple categories. For example, Red Dragon Archfiend is a midrange deck with Combo, Control and Aggro being pulled into it. It's boards are usually on the small end (Supernova, Abyss, Dis Pater, Crimson Gaia, Red Zone), while these cards can control the field (2 board wipes, 2 potential negates, 2 potential pops) and due to the extra deck, they have the OTK potential and can operate going 2nd if built accordingly.
The most effective way to win the game is to limit your opponent's plays as much as possible. Most modern decks can do this to some degree, so they do have aspects of control.
I think this is a good way to define things but I think power creep is starting to blur the lines. Combo decks nowadays take their 10 mins turn one with many interruptions but still have some level of recursion allowing them to set up again. A good example is snake eyes which sets up 4 or so interruptions but will still have followup ready for the next turn in their hand.
You forgot stun, but the real kicker is that people are lumping ramp decks into both the combo and midrange labels and don't even realize it.
Because the game ends in so few turns, it becomes a lot harder to identify what makes something a "ramp" deck. Like, Branded is predominantly a ramp deck for example (builds that utilize the Gimmick Puppet lock lean more into combo territory).
@@four-en-tee Stun is just another name for control
@@romkin1197
Control is about resource management, but in YGO most people lay out a majority of their resources over the first turn or 2 so it's difficult to evaluate different variants of Control outside of specific decks. Focus on one's own resource loop specifically is referred to as Ramping, but few strategies can succeed in this game without protecting their own resources for a turn or attacking the opponent's in some way, which is why EVERY deck has some form of Disruption as a Control tactic, often via hand traps(and formerly more standard traps were in common usage regardless of their synergy with decks).
Stun(aka "Prison" in MtG) is the variant that focuses on restricting opponent's actions harder than yours with Floodgates and occasionally "turn skip" shenanigans to get to that insurmountable advantage. The whole reason the "Stun" name is used in YGO specifically is because delaying the opponent's progress for just a turn can potenially be game ending. But the problem with that definition is that EVERY DECK BECOMES STUN AFTER SIDING because of targeted Floodgates and Hand Traps. So the decks that focus on those cards from the get go get accused of being "Stun" strategies.
Board breaking is a type of Control strategy that focuses on punishing overextending by mass deleting resources(traditionally from the field, but also sometimes from the GY and Hand), usually to make it easier to keep your own resource loop uninhibited by disruption as opposed to just attacking for game, typically Sky Striker focused decks run along these lines where they DO have an OTK Aggro button, but don't rely on it the way something like Dinos might, and can slow roll their way to victory after getting the initial threats out of the way. Most decks that aren't dedicated to board breaking often side in board breakers to go second specifically to take out established boards to make setting up their own field more easily, so this is way more common than just a specific set of decks.
Milling is a style of Control that focuses on attacking the deck(and in YGO's case Extra Deck) directly, which is a style of tactic that's only really been done successfully in about 4 ways(Empty Jar, Dogmatika, Runick, and Kashtira). This is probably the one style of Control more despised than "pure" Stun since it can often be difficult to figure out when milling has forced a deck into an unwinnable state in comparison.
synchrons die to op cards with no cost whatsoever such as nibiru and dark ruler no more.
I don't even play Yu-Gi-Oh but I want a expensive mid-range blue eyes white dragon Deck with the obelisk god card
The main problem we have here in TCG is the rarity diversity, thats why decksthat died like 2 months after like VS had literally BS prices.
You should make a deck profile of your Rescue-ACE deck
Aggro, Midrange, and Control could be defined as the amount of combo lines the deck has. Recursion takes it closer to Midrange
Modern Yu-Gi-Oh doesnt really have a midrange deck anymore. Theres only 2 deck types. Aggro (FTK decks) or Combo (Turn 2 /Control ). Combo decks in Yu-Gi-Oh are basically full negate boards. Unfortunately i highly doubt we will ever get the game to a pace that "Mid-Range" is ever a good strategy ever again
Exactly my opinion on this too. But in my eyes. Every Yu-Gi-Oh deck is literally just an aggro deck in disguise.
Purrely is a mid-range deck. The boards only summon like 3-5 times max but have good recurrsion and disruption.
Given how lengthy turns in Yugioh have been known to be (occassionally to a comical degree), what really is classified as a midrage deck? Is it just one that makes the game last longer than 3 turns? I wonder if someone who plays a deck that keeps the game going for 5 turns could be classified as stalling now.
Oh dont forget those guys that dont go for the kill and combo off fpr 5-7 more minutes
As someone who is actively building fun decks to play with my friends and online i would love to see earlier formats make a return but in every game that exist today there is a meta and I’m sorry as long as powerful cards exist and are legal they will be used by everyone. Everyone wants the taste of winning even if it means everyone runs the same hand traps and extra deck.
We need decks of all levels to have a place, otherwise newcomer ls will never come. Plus, we have so many cards in this game, why not utilize as many archetypes and variety as possible?
Since Konami rather make new than complete what they abandoned in the past. There's so many incomplete archetypes or card that just don't work.
I play with no links, synchros, or xyz just because i dont have time to learn combos and Im not interested in learning either. I usually get rid of top tier cards by playing 3x copies of Lava Golem and Winged Dragon of Ra Sphere Mode and usually play either a retro deck, deck out cards, or use damage cards.
The best examples i can come up with are
Aggro - FTK/OTK (current Branded), Exodia pend, Burn,
Combo - Snake Eyes, Mannadium, Danger Tear.
Mid range - Swordsoul, Voiceless, (branded pre quem / before nightmare lock)
Control - (New era stun), Floo, Kashtira,
to decide if your deck is "Aggro, Combo, Mid-range, or Control" you must first Figure out, how does your deck achieve winning the game?
is it a FTK? is it a OTK? if so Your an Aggro deck.
do you setup 4-5 Interuptions then pass? if so you may be a combo deck.
(keep in mind combo decks tend to have little recovery if any at all, and tend to struggle against handtraps)
if you board is broken or you are handtrapped do you have recovery? if you do you are likely a midrange deck
If your deck plays more than 3 copies of any floodgate cards like anti spell, Summon Limit, in your MAINDECK, or you have Lingering stun effects in your archtype OR you are playing Fossil dyna/ barrier statues.
You are playing a control deck. (there are plenty more cards that can be listed, but the above should get the point across)
I call it a toolbox deck but yeah, midrange decks don't have enough gas to currently compete at a high level while running the best hand traps to really shine at what they do.
Ash x3
Nib x3
Imperm x3
Veiler x3
Shifter x3
Then packages like Talent/Thrust x3 mix, Dark Ruler or Droplet + Duster or Lightning Storm, and a pot card
That's 21 cards already before you even build your engine.
Midrange means playing like you have Batman's belt and it's really hard to do that fast enough, when the entire point of midrange is to have a back and forth fist-fight and not a "I went first, play the same engine or lose" game.
It's not those decks' fault either, they're just a product of what the game has become
Yeah that's the unfortunate truth of the matter. Most midrange decks struggle if they don't also have a blowout, floodgate style card to back them up. For instance, Vanquish Soul gets significantly scarier if they open with TCBOO, but that's a non-searchable 1-of, and doesn't actually say anything about the Vanquish Soul strategy itself.
Old school toolboxes required you to bait out people. They throw they setup early you take a few minor hits and then you drop your setup while they can't defend against it. Now it's setup or lose which isn't funny
Paul: Explains his depiction of a "Mid-Range" deck(s).
How I perceive it:
Close-Range Deck = OTK
Mid-Range Deck = Back and forth gameplay/ Can Survive 2 turns min.
Long-Range Deck = Control Deck (Eldich, Allergist, etc.)
The problem is not the decks its the extra deck all the generic negative/floodgate anything extra deck cards are the problem with yugioh and I think decks like zoo, vanquished soul, and maybe virtual world are mid range decks
Exactly my thoughts, the Extra Deck ist the problem and you can even see that in prizes of free Link monsters, that just hit the field to destroy something etc. just to Link away in the next second (just an example)
The main deck being able to search and summon any card at any time with no real is the only reason those extra deck monsters have consistency on the field so no it's not just the extra deck but the main deck as well.
super heavy samurai, snake eyes ect
Generic negates or extra deck cards aren't necessarily bad.
@@Honest_Mids_Masher you're right, decks that can spam the board and don't have a summon lock that allow you to summon 1 or more of them in 2 turn are bad though.
I'm not someone too deep at all into the competitive scene of YGO. Actually only started playing again after a break since 2011 in 2022, with the release of Labrynth, but I've been active in MTG for those years. It definitely seems that the definitions have become much murkier in modern YGO than most, if not all other TCGs I've dabbled in over the years. Don't want this to be taken in too negative a light, I wouldn't have come back if I didn't enjoy it after all, but such overarching descriptions don't really hold here I feel. It's much more a deck by deck basis at this point. A kind of match up and knowledge check, how to deal with what the opponents specific flavor of disruption does, and where their combos are vulnerable.
My personal favorite analogy for how I see the game is, that it's the fighting game of TCGs. Super brutal entry if you wanna be even semi competent. Combos, but also fundamental knowledge checks all around. And almost each deck feels like a wholly new character you're facing off against. Even that the best thing to do to learn the match up seems to be "have a friend that plays it and train together" or "play it yourself for a bit and see where it falls short firsthand"
This kinda turned into a ramble as well, but I feel that that's just the nature of the subject here
I hate it when people say Spright, Tearlaments or Snake Eyes are mid range decks. They are indeed not. All of those are full blown combo decks that all put up 7 interactions on their first turn.
The problem is that because modern combo decks have a grindgame now, midrange decks have lost their reason to exist. Why do [Rank 4 + Salamangreat Roar+ Ash in Hand] when you can have [Baronne, Naturia Exterio, Rukhallos, Dragustapelia protected by Spright Elf with Sulliek Set Havnis in Hand and Shufflers in GY]. Both decks have insane follow up, but one of them also basicly FTKs you.
Melffy Spright ends on 7-8 interactions as well looping Toad for resources etc. while having infinite follow up with Elf.
Snake Eyes ends on 7 interactions and has an infinite grind game thanks to Flamberge and the Sinful spoils loop.
Comho decks lost their downside therefore midrange decks have no place anymore.
What was the very first combodeck that broke the line? Answer is easy: It's Dragonlink. Before DLink we have had decks like Spyral or Gouki which both went through their entire ED on turn 1. On turn 2 you either kill them or most likely lose. Dragon Link was the first real combo ddck that could rebuild their board over and over to so e extend. From then on this trend kept going with the Block Dragon Combo deck,then Bird Up, then the Adventure halq Piles then the POTE decks.
The trend btw gets even worse because Konami thinks it's a good idea to give every deck a Poplar/Circular type of card. Now even rogue decks like Lightsworn and Galaxy Eyes will be combodecks with Grindgame 😂
to me there are 6 deck types
Aggro: deck basically tries to OTK while also invalidating your opponent's board. Things like Fluffals, Cyber Dragon, Crusadia, Blue Eyes, Lunalight, Trains, Numeron.
Control: you're trading resources while also outgrinding your opponent out of theirs. Things like Umi, Orcust, Sky Strikers, Gladiator Beasts, Burning Abyss, Satellar Knights, Altergeist, Dragonmaid, Drytron.
Ramp: starts off vulnerable but as the turns pass it gets stronger and snowballs. Things like Lightsworn, Dark Magician, Infernoids.
Combo: imo if your deck goes beyond 5 special summons with many extenders then it's a combo deck. things like Code talkers, dragon link, adamancipators.
Midrange: imo is a deck that moderately searches or has good draw power without using the pots but can't make super aggressive boards like Salamangreat, Vanquish Soul, Phantom Knights, Fire Fists, Suships, Six Samurai, Sacred Beasts, Infernobles.
stun: these are decks are decks that floodgate you or lock you out of specific plays and lacks a win condition other than hoping to chip you out stall the game to a crawl until they draw exodia or something like Crooked Cook Exodia, Skill Drain Beatdown, Mystic Mine.
New drytrons, midrange ritual combo with heavy recursion! Yippee! And you can still turnskip using Invoked Caliga, if you feel degenerate.
Honestly, I never liked calling a deck "control" "midrange" "aggro" in modern yugioh. They are just terms that don't mean anything anymore because lots of decks do a little bit of everything. I prefer to call a deck by what archetype or engine they're playing. It tells me way more about the deck and what to expect versus just calling it "midrange".
I created a discussion about this on Reddit months ago. And this is how I classify deck type in YGO. This is more like a "wishlist" for Konami to create a balance deck type.
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For example, I classify a combo deck as a deck with good ability in consistency (3 points), versatility (3 points) (playing under disruption), & attack (3 points) (but it can change, depending on the uniqueness of the deck). But slightly weaker in disruptions (2 points)(you can switch it with the Attack, stronger disruption but lower attack, depending on the uniqueness of the deck). Lastly, the recovery (1 point) is very weak because the combo must be a "put all in 1 basket" type.
For the control, I give strong points on disruption (4 points) and recovery (4 points). Bad at versatility (1 point) and attack (1 point). But the consistency (2 points) is slightly better.
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I know this is very difficult to classify the real YGO decks with those points. But I hope Konami really has a plan before they create something. Also, to make it easier to measure the point. Arctype should have more restrictions or difficult requirements (non-generic). The reason why we difficult to measure the deck type in YGO, is because everything is too generic.
Combo and Control are not opposites.
There are two axis to define a deck
Aggro vs Control - This is defined by the ratio of threats vs answer. A pure aggro deck has no answers, but every card pushes the decks wincon. Pure control actually cannot really exist. Pure control would have no wincon but just a pile of staple answers.
Combo vs Good Stuff - This axis is defined by how many of the cards are in your deck because they are "good cards" and how many are in your deck because they have synergy with other cards. For example Ash Blossom is a "Good card". While Fire King island isn't in your deck because its good. Fire King island is in your deck because it combos with fire king cards. Its very much relative. But a GOAT deck is likely to be far more of a good stuff pile compared to a modern archetype.
I run PURE flameswordsman , mid range? I’ve won a few locals or get top 3-4 make my beat stick, run 17 hand traps and beat over with big sword
What I've found to be the best indicator of deck type is follow up in relation to the outright stopping power of the end board. Because Yugioh is almost exclusively combo decks (not to be mistaken with Aggro decks), I think the amount of follow up is what dictates the type. If you blow your whole load turn one and have no follow up if the board gets broken, you're an aggro deck, if your end board focuses less on raw stopping power and rather on redirecting the flow of the game and has all the follow-up i the world, it's a control deck, if your deck has less raw stopping power than an aggro deck but more than a control deck, and less follow-up than a control deck, but more than an aggro deck, it's midrange
a big part of the problem is that almost every kind of deck in ygo other than combo decks is close to dead. the extra deck almost ensures htis, because...what're you comboing for?
You're combing to assemble a disgusting, negate-filled degenerate board that locks your opponent out of the game. because that's what all those extenders are in service of. you extend, you combo, specifically to lock the opponent down. YGO is about spitting out pieces to assemble extra deck monsters.
Combo is simply the means to an ends...that facilitates every end. because YGO is about the extra deck. it is the centerpiece of every deck in this game. If you want them to be more seperate again, you need to weaken the extra deck.
One of the contributing things to this is that...combo doesn't mean *aggro*. Most of the decks in YGO that aren't aggro decks are Stun decks. Control decks in YGO combo quite a lot.
The problem is the splashability of any engine staple, or boss monster into any deck. Unless you play pure archetype your deck is a combination of 2-card engine that combos into your main archetype that then goes into a lockdown setup.
Idk who thought up Swordsoul at Konami but I think that should be the standard for new archetypes they create. They made it splashable with Tenyi which always felt like an incomplete archtype to begin with & they really complemented each other where the 2 archetypes feel synonymous.
Swordsoul I feel is a great mid-range deck that can go 1st or 2nd, puts up a nice board but also one that can be broken, giving the opponent a chance to establish their own board/chance to win. Has options with in archetype cards to navigate established boards, in archetype boss monsters which felt strong/meaningful, left room in the deck for handtraps/staples. Just a great all around deck that feels fair & nicely balanced.
The way I see it is you can’t really categorize combo decks similarly to midrange, aggro, and control because Yugioh is very different from other card games such as combo has become almost a necessity in gameplay unless you play something like stun/troll where little to no comboing is necessary. In other games a combo is more often identified as a win condition that your deck is built around or a way to gain massive value, in Yugioh it has just become the norm. I’d consider aggro to be more like decks that have an extremely all-in combo that tries to setup full boards of big monsters with at least a full hands worth of negates and disruptions but also have little to no recovery against board breakers, Dinosaurs for example. Midrange I was definitely thinking Branded before Paul mentioned it, can make a somewhat diverse board based on the matchup, decent amount of disruptions but not too heavy on flat out negates, and the combo has a way of returning cards to hand for later turns, so while it can win immediately as with ANY deck in Yugioh it’s goal isn’t to blowout the opponent all the time. Then you have control, the stun/troll/burn/etc which just try to not necessarily negate but more lock your opponent out of playing through more floodgate-y effects, Floo is a good example even though it can win the following turn, it doesn’t have to, similarly is trap based decks like Altergeists, Eldlich, and recently Labrynth. That’s my two cents on it.
I don't follow the meta almost never, but I do catch up once or twice a year. As far as my casual player memory goes the last time midrange was a thing was with tele-dad.
Edit: A friend of mine used to play the dark magician girls strat. Very midrangy. I think those strats are way more popular within the casual playerbase
The problem now is combo and control decks also get the same benefit that midrange decks used to have.
Seemingly every deck can do it's full combo, control the game with 5+ negates and if you do break the board they can just easily bring back most of their board straight away.
I think the hallmark of what makes something a 'control' deck is having a resource loop that's easily and possibly indefinitely able to be sustained like with Labrynth furniture or how floo monster constantly bring themselves back to hand. Combo decks have more and more follow up nowadays but it's usually a finite amount however in recent times that finite amount is all they really need to close out the game which takes away from the benefits of control styles.
Midrange decks are decks that put up strong boards but have an emphasis on securing follow up but not infinitely following up like a control deck
I'm not even sure if "control, aggro, midrange" are where I'd draw the distinctions. I'd draw the line as "linear to complex". Complex decks feel like engines that can facilitate multiple lines of play which usually ends up as high damage and destruction, but also might end up with negates as needed. Linear decks often dont have as many opportunities to switch up the plan of attack, but are good at creating a specific board state. Complex decks tend to run formats as they survive interruption better, stuff like virtual world where stopping them either means having the right hand trap at the right spot in the combo or multiple negates feels impossible depending on what deck you're running. Meanwhile, decks like Traptrix or Witchcrafters do the same thing every time in a few moves, but your opponent making Sera, putting down the field spell, setting 4 and passing feels just as menacing in a few seconds. Yeah, feather duster or lighting storm might force a scoop immediately , but not knowing what the 4 are creates a lot of pressure and suspense to not start recklessly making plays.
i think the definitions are more so related to how decks spend their resources. aggro decks spend a lot of resources all at once, and typically spending their resources grants them access to even more resources. control decks prefer to spend their resources more slowly over time, and their resources typically prevent their opponent from amassing resources
basically aggro decks will sprint to the finish line, and control decks will walk to the finish line while tripping anyone who tries to pass them
If every decks a combo deck, maybe another way to describe these decks would be from "high combo" to "low combo". I don't enjoy comboing on and on until my board is completed, I prefer a deck like Swordsoul where there's only a few steps you need to learn before finishing your combo.
For me one of the big differentiating factors is how much the deck plans around the game going past turn 2. For a deck like Block dragon adamancipator that I used to play on MD, your T1 plays are very insane, but if your opponent clears your board your extra deck might just be out of gas and you just lose even if you get another turn.
On the other hand in a deck like swordsoul you maybe use 3-4 cards from your extra deck on the first turn, and mo ye/taia can often get you followup for next turn while doing your combos on the first turn, so the recovery is much easier.
I do agree with the general sentiment that as the game speeds up, the lines between archetype become more and more blurred, to the point where differentiating between midrange and control or between aggro and combo become very blurred.
But in my opinion, how long a deck takes to do its turn isn't a good benchmark of whether it's combo or midrange, it's in my opinion more about how well the deck can recur resources and play a longer game if plan A of killing didn't work out too well.
For that reason I'd for example argue that Snake eyes probably is closer to midrange than combo for example - the issue is not about the gameplan, it is about the relative power level of the deck in the format. The deck sets up a very strong but not unbreakable board with plans of recurring resources and rebuilding on their next turn to kill. Mannadium on the other hand want to just negate all your plays and kill you without necessarily having to do anything at all on T3 except going to battle and attacking. It's just that any deck that is significantly more powerful than the surrounding archetypes seem like a combo deck when you compare them.
I definitely agree with the assessment of vanquish soul being a very midrange-y midrange deck, but if you sent it through a time machine and printed it in goat format I'm sure it'd be the very definition of a combo deck just because of how it plays relative to the rest of the format.
I'm not generally versed competitive yugioh so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I've watched a fair bit of retro yugioh on cimooo's channel and seen a few vids on mtg. I feel like yugioh especially these days basically can't have anything like a mid-range deck from mtg, it was possible in early yugioh when special summons were limited so bouncing back a normal summon mattered, especially if it was a tribute summon. But these days there's no such thing as tempo, if card games were songs yugioh would be rush E with no build up at 3x speed
Paul been the GOAT since 2017. Change my mind
I think Blackwings is a midrange combo nowadays since it has lines that drop into either control due to running assault mode turbo and CD Infinity negate + fog blades, let alone the fact of access to a towers in Full Armor Master, or dumping resources into Chidori's buff, or going for Arc Rebellion to negate board and punch for massive damage.
Maybe at the next tournament, they can award more points to people winning with lower power decks. Usually prizes push innovation.
Interesting thing to do, like wiess schwarz tournament in JP, they actuslly give u penalty if playing meta decks.
decks nowaday can regain resouces fast and otk u in t3 while stopping u with HT or negate, so if ur deck cant play under HT or negate ur screw going second, fireking se is a good example, abusing what IP could do in your turn while playing the HT game with +2 draw from heatsoul
Absolutely not, as long as you don't play with or against meta decks, yugioh is amazing right now with non-meta decks.
Would you say Danger/DW is Combo or Mid-range? (I ask because I know it can combo pretty hard)
I think the key difference is proactive vs reactive.
Aggro and Stall already have a plan to win, and the player doesn't need to think as much about the other player actions. A midrange deck is more about reacting/countering your opponent with specific and decisive actions, and thus is why it has probably fallen out of favor. But really, there rarely is a pure aggro, midrange, or stall deck, and is more of a spectrum.
Its been mentioned elsewhere but largely the difference now between mid range and pure combo is combo wins turn one if not interrupted successfully where as mid range can still do that but its final board can be broken only for it to largely rebuild that board the next turn. A bit like Man vs Unchained or reacue ace last format. There isn't really a good Yu-Gi-Oh deck that cant win turn one now without drawing a bad hand or successful interrupted.
A game without the option of midrange strategies is in a bad spot. Hopefully they can bring it back. But seems impossible when the game is make board break board
How do you even define midrange for yugioh? For other games you are "curving out", usually playing 1 card a turn that generates immediate value or presents an immediate threat to be dealt with.
Like the video, but flunders isnt control.
Its flat out stun
Edit: also branded turns arent long. Takes like a minute and at the end they usually have, mirror jade, set branded in red, activated branded lost and have quem on field
A mid-range deck is a duck that can get out between 1or 2 extra deck monsters. Anne have monsters that are good but not broken. Where the card has a clear weakness that you can exploit. Slash a deck that doesn't kill you in 1 to 3 turns
I wish i have people like you in locals, all i see it's try hards that don't want to have fun and don't want anyone to have fun. I'm crying? Yes sir
I think one of the best midrange decks currently is goblin biker because they don't have a lock built into them and they are good at breaking certain boards going second and good at setting up powerful boards and only need a couple of easy to learn engines like ghostrick and full armor XYZ at my locals I haven't gone against snake eye fire king yet so I'm not sure how it fares against that match up but every other deck I've gone against has a lot of other decks and had good matches with it
to be honest, only knowing midrange as having a stable plan every turn or a way to loop resource, i thought most modern decks are midrange.
Do you count Traptrix as midrange, after their structure deck support? They play more aggressively now but still short linear combos.
Modern yugioh is just bad, I hope Edison and goat and other formats get supported more
Yugioh feels like one of the only games where the object of the game is to prevent your opponent from playing.
I have no idea what any of these decks or cards are. And I have 15 decks. Then again I have lost interest in yugioh like 6 years ago
I think it’s should be more mid range support, to get players trying them cards out again .
EARTH Machine is more Combo now but it was definitely a Midrange/Control strategy when it started. The whole combo is just to set up a resource loop that lets you play the rest of the game.
I cant stand playing against swordsouls. First they got a turn 3 times longer than my own and then they continue playing in my turn.
i dont even bother with archetypes or meta decks i just build weird decks that are my own thing
sure i lose most of the time bud id rather loose with a deck i actually made my self rather than just copy the meta decks
Problem is any deck can just otk you now. Only difference between midrange and meta is resiliency to disruption.
I hate any decks fhat play on my turn more than i do. Thats why i hate vanquish soul as much as i do tearlements
Yugioh is so hard to play. I prefer Edison and Tengu format.
Free Maxx C and maybe we'll have some midrange decks again 😂