Its really telling how the Greatswords have been slighlty disappointing in every edition but it doesnt stop them from being universally loved within the community.
I have 5 metal greatswords from whf in an unopened box, I own an orcs and goblins army. Never once considered selling them, and it might push me to start an empire army when that release comes.
I don't care how useful they are in game, this is a cool ass unit that I would LOVE to paint the shit out of. They deserve a really decent paint job as a focal point unit.
30 min in: Correction: shooting & magic causes panic, not break tests. break tests are only for combat. you therefore can draw out stubborn rule with shooting or magic. Also - if you fall back in good order, then the opposing unit can pursue, AND counts as charging if it does so - so your greatswords aren't out of danger. Stubborn helps soften First Charge rule though
The two items that make the most sense to me for a Coun't champion are the potion of speed and the luckstone. Even with the 50 points allowance I don't usually have a lot of points sitting around so at 10 and 15 points they won't break the bank, while helping him win/survive challenges against most unit champions that aren't cavalry using a lance.
Greatswords look awesome against enemy line infantry, but I still don't rate them vs enemy elites (Hammerers, Chaos Warriors, Swordmasters, Black Orcs, etc) that will sometimes have a higher WS.
Armour of Silvered Steel, Armour of Fortune, Talisman Of Protection.... or anything thats give champion more chances of survive. But more important detachments use regimental units leadership and some special rules like stubborn. What is nice anchor for units of your army.
Bound spells power level is added to the 2d6. So bound power 2 is 2d6+2. You still need to hit the casting value of the spell. It's changed a bit from 8th where the bound spell power level was effectively what was rolled to cast the spell
11 points per greatstword wielded is a good price. i think this probably where the skaven players goes uh that’s expensive😂. Just going from 8th where stormvermins had a mere cost of 7points per model to 10points per model, makes quit a difference.
If you have veterans as a special rule upgrade you could reroll the stupidity test from the Wizarding hat too. I don’t know if it’s actually worth it or not but it’s possible.
I have a unit of greatswords from back in 7th ed. They are my pride and joy in my empire force. They have never let me down in battle. They once died to a man in a tournament against lizardmen, surviving multiple charges and magic while the rest of my army was totally crumbled.
Great video! And i just wanted to say that i think stubborn only work for a break test, and a panic test is not a break test! Break test are only for losing a combat (p. 144 and 154)
IMO - Ruby Ring is a bad choice since you cannot march and cast magic missiles, the Greatswords are going to be marching a lot in order to get those big choppas where they belong. Wizarding hat is pretty funny as a pick just because you can take Battle Magic and drop whatever you roll for HammerHand - which goes at his initiative (ouch) but is pretty easy to cast (dice only need to show a 6) and puts out an extra 2d3S4ap2 hits, which is a huge % increase in damage output. Most other spells aren't really worth it as a spell for various reasons (Difficulty to cast as a lvl 1, needing to march all the time etc) but you might be able to talk me into Illusion's Glittering Robes (-1 to hit the unit is a big durability buff on an already tough unit) or Elementalism's Storm Call (-1I before charging in can be the difference between swinging first or not) I do think if you're going for Wizarding Hat you probably also want to be Veteran to get to reroll the stupid-test just in case - and now the unit is getting a little spendy, so something to look out for. Down the 'defensive' line of thought, you could try a pair of Lodestones (for MR2) or the Spelleater Axe (which is MR2 for 5pt cheaper, but is a worse weapon than your default great weapon) One other shoutout is the Shroud of Iron - it's dirt cheap at 10pts and stacking a 6++ against templates (if stone throwers are common in your local area) might be worth it since infantry blocks are the most attractive target for those sorts of weapons. It only needs to save a single model in the course of the game to be "worth it"
Reading wizarding hat, RAW it’s definitely legal. RAI I would also argue that the intention is to allow you to pay for your fighty (armoured) character to be a wizard. The item already comes with a pretty obvious downside in the stupidity. :)
Well since they went back to if you kill the front rank there are going to be no strikes back Greatswords are going to be total crap since with two handed weapons they will strike last and given that they are just humans the chances of having one still standing out of that first rank of five is slim to none means that they will be nothing but easy points for your opponent. Just another reason to avoid these rules since they are overprice and not that good.
I love them, I always loved. One of the few units I haven't moved to new baes as they are worthless... I don't want to see my favorite unit wasted and showing low performance :/
I'm partial to sticking the Shroud of Iron on unit champions. Only 10 points, and it gives the entire unit a 6+ ward against template attacks. Might save a few models from armour piercing war machine attacks.
non- magical. All bases are bigger and rule of partial hit is back. --> template warmashines are taken rarely as they are much worse. catapults are rather used against single models. Item is worthles... was good in 7-8 ed.
they are pretty awesome, but still human. wouldnt waste points for magic items on them on a big unit a banner is pretty useful otherwise small units to flank might be great
Thanks for the essay. They seem decent. Definitely can bully other line troops. I think it is too easy to fall into the trap of believing they are elite though. Nothing Empire is elite enough to win against true elite troops 1 on 1. But greatswords do the job of holding against true elites better than regular state troops, so you can follow up with support on your turn. I would keep them small and cheap, and position them on the flank to give my opponent a dilemma...engage the greatswords and get drawn hopefully into position that I can follow up with a flank charge, or my opponent can engage my main line and deal with the greatswords definitely hitting their flank.
Greatswords were amazing in 7th edition. Only because it was the only edition where casualties didn't reduce your attacks from the front rank. Now that the Old World uses that rule again (each casualty is one less attack from the fighting rank) it's tough to justify them... You really need that charge and even then the Great Weapon initiative might not be high enough to strike first against some enemies. You want a position held though? yeah other than Flagellants that'll die faster they're the best at holding that ground to almost a man. EDIT: I keep forgetting that AP is rarer now. Which means that 4+ save will rarely be modified as compared to the previous edition(s).
You mean 8th edition as we had remove the attacks from casualties in 7th. However they would strike first if charging just had always strikes last after that.
*fighting to the last man* except they are never actually fighting but *fighting to the last man* . Dont include them. They are sheit. Very sadly so. Looking forward to the *inner cirly knights hype* video!
Just give them Strength 4 already. For once. Just once in the history of Warhammer, make Greatswords Strength 4. It's not wrong to do so. It's never been wrong.
Greatswords are okay. They are elite, for Empire. Compare them to other elites, and you start to see the shortfalls. Temple Guard and Black Orcs are tougher and have just as much output. Elven elites have better WS and I, meaning they will cut them to ribbons. Chaos Warriors with Mark of Khorne and halberds outclass Greatswords completely. That said, they can be used cunningly. They are cheaper than other elites. Backed up by handguns to cut down the enemy units, greatswords are and excellent grinding anvil.
Imho they are kinda disapointing from a fluff perspective. As touched upon in the State Troops videos, the empire's proffesional army shouldn't be a thing at this point in time. So I'd actually roll greatswords and veterans into one slightly worse but more flexible (in terms of upgrade options) unit. This would also allow to more fluffily represent stuff like Middenland Greataxe guys and stuff like it. Also, full plater? Has anyone looked at the models? That isn't FULL plate! It's more like half plate and should really count as heavy armor. Reserve stuff like full plate, great weapon, elite infantry for Teutogen Guard in a Wolf Empire army of infamy!!
@mordianglory I would be careful spending points on magical items on the champion. With only 1 wound they are an easy kill once engaged in combat as attacks can be directed towards him.
Probably the worst elite infantry in the game which is a shame because the models are great. They don't have the durability to tarpit and their offense isn't anything to write home about either especially since the vast majority of the time they will be swinging last. From a competitive standpoint your better off spending ~30 points more on a unit of demigryphs which are actually durable and can hit hard.
@@SteelStorm33 full plate seems pretty heavy to me ;) Heavy infantry needs only 4 models for rank bonus and isn't as easily disrupted by a flank charge
I’m gonna be honest, this video is nearly unwatchable because of the constantly stuttering audio… I was really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the great swords. But after a minute or so, so much of it was unintelligible because of the audio cutting in and out that I had to give up.
Greatswords are on my to buy list. I'm planning to pick up the Mantic Games halfling knights/greatswords box. It'll get me some miniatures to use as Inner Circle Knights and greatswords, and if I like them I'll probably buy some of their other stuff so I can have halfling handgunners and Outriders.
Always pictured them a looking a bit different if we really followed the lore. With 4+ Dwarven forged full-plate these guys would probably look more like they just walked off the set of John Boorman's Excalibur. Furthermore, Sigmar's Empire would more likely have heavy Dwarven and lighter elf influence on their gear. The 16th century landsknecht has it's place but for me the models just never lived up to the background.
They are T3 S3 great weapon infantry. Stop comparing them to iron breakers and chaos warriors. Its silly. They are decent but don't expect them to hold up to a charge of anything comparably priced. You are far better off soaking a charge with spears and counter charging. You should tone down your hyperbole.
Who pissed in you coffee? If you are familiar with Mordians content you would know he get´s excited about all kinds of stuff, sometimes justyfiably, sometimes not but thats not the same as being hyperbolic.
Who uses Greatswords, when there are Bamboo Spears.........
BANZAI!!
Its really telling how the Greatswords have been slighlty disappointing in every edition but it doesnt stop them from being universally loved within the community.
I have 5 metal greatswords from whf in an unopened box, I own an orcs and goblins army. Never once considered selling them, and it might push me to start an empire army when that release comes.
They're just so cool!
@@r.j.macready They were good in 8th edition.
I don't care how useful they are in game, this is a cool ass unit that I would LOVE to paint the shit out of. They deserve a really decent paint job as a focal point unit.
30 min in: Correction: shooting & magic causes panic, not break tests. break tests are only for combat. you therefore can draw out stubborn rule with shooting or magic.
Also - if you fall back in good order, then the opposing unit can pursue, AND counts as charging if it does so - so your greatswords aren't out of danger. Stubborn helps soften First Charge rule though
Ah good to know, thank you :)
Just a feedback, but lots of instances with the audio cutting out prematurely in this video.
I left an editors note at the beginning of the video at 1:33 just a heads up about that issue :)
The two items that make the most sense to me for a Coun't champion are the potion of speed and the luckstone. Even with the 50 points allowance I don't usually have a lot of points sitting around so at 10 and 15 points they won't break the bank, while helping him win/survive challenges against most unit champions that aren't cavalry using a lance.
Greatswords look awesome against enemy line infantry, but I still don't rate them vs enemy elites (Hammerers, Chaos Warriors, Swordmasters, Black Orcs, etc) that will sometimes have a higher WS.
Armour of Silvered Steel, Armour of Fortune, Talisman Of Protection.... or anything thats give champion more chances of survive. But more important detachments use regimental units leadership and some special rules like stubborn. What is nice anchor for units of your army.
The Empire is my favorite and the Greatswords are my favorite amongst them
The Griffin standard doesnt stop the max Rank Bonus limit, hence basically what it does that even one rank of infantry gives you the max plus 2
Exactly, like many Imperial magic items, it is a weak item
Bound spells power level is added to the 2d6.
So bound power 2 is 2d6+2. You still need to hit the casting value of the spell.
It's changed a bit from 8th where the bound spell power level was effectively what was rolled to cast the spell
Loving the old world content. Especially because you can get very in-depth with unit customization.
Greatswords are fantastic, especially when led by a Warrior Priest!
Multiwound 2 is tight
@@uruk_bye1232 Absolutely!!
A warrior priest of Nurgle? 😁
11 points per greatstword wielded is a good price.
i think this probably where the skaven players goes uh that’s expensive😂.
Just going from 8th where stormvermins had a mere cost of 7points per model to 10points per model, makes quit a difference.
No idea how good they are but I like the 6th Ed models..
If you have veterans as a special rule upgrade you could reroll the stupidity test from the Wizarding hat too. I don’t know if it’s actually worth it or not but it’s possible.
I have a unit of greatswords from back in 7th ed. They are my pride and joy in my empire force. They have never let me down in battle.
They once died to a man in a tournament against lizardmen, surviving multiple charges and magic while the rest of my army was totally crumbled.
Great video!
And i just wanted to say that i think stubborn only work for a break test, and a panic test is not a break test! Break test are only for losing a combat (p. 144 and 154)
IMO - Ruby Ring is a bad choice since you cannot march and cast magic missiles, the Greatswords are going to be marching a lot in order to get those big choppas where they belong.
Wizarding hat is pretty funny as a pick just because you can take Battle Magic and drop whatever you roll for HammerHand - which goes at his initiative (ouch) but is pretty easy to cast (dice only need to show a 6) and puts out an extra 2d3S4ap2 hits, which is a huge % increase in damage output. Most other spells aren't really worth it as a spell for various reasons (Difficulty to cast as a lvl 1, needing to march all the time etc) but you might be able to talk me into Illusion's Glittering Robes (-1 to hit the unit is a big durability buff on an already tough unit) or Elementalism's Storm Call (-1I before charging in can be the difference between swinging first or not)
I do think if you're going for Wizarding Hat you probably also want to be Veteran to get to reroll the stupid-test just in case - and now the unit is getting a little spendy, so something to look out for.
Down the 'defensive' line of thought, you could try a pair of Lodestones (for MR2) or the Spelleater Axe (which is MR2 for 5pt cheaper, but is a worse weapon than your default great weapon)
One other shoutout is the Shroud of Iron - it's dirt cheap at 10pts and stacking a 6++ against templates (if stone throwers are common in your local area) might be worth it since infantry blocks are the most attractive target for those sorts of weapons. It only needs to save a single model in the course of the game to be "worth it"
18:50 correct me if I am wrong but can the Wizarding Hat ever be used in this case? Wizards can't wear armor, and the champion wears full plate.
Reading wizarding hat, RAW it’s definitely legal. RAI I would also argue that the intention is to allow you to pay for your fighty (armoured) character to be a wizard. The item already comes with a pretty obvious downside in the stupidity. :)
Well since they went back to if you kill the front rank there are going to be no strikes back Greatswords are going to be total crap since with two handed weapons they will strike last and given that they are just humans the chances of having one still standing out of that first rank of five is slim to none means that they will be nothing but easy points for your opponent. Just another reason to avoid these rules since they are overprice and not that good.
I love them, I always loved. One of the few units I haven't moved to new baes as they are worthless... I don't want to see my favorite unit wasted and showing low performance :/
I'm partial to sticking the Shroud of Iron on unit champions. Only 10 points, and it gives the entire unit a 6+ ward against template attacks. Might save a few models from armour piercing war machine attacks.
non- magical. All bases are bigger and rule of partial hit is back. --> template warmashines are taken rarely as they are much worse. catapults are rather used against single models. Item is worthles... was good in 7-8 ed.
they are pretty awesome, but still human.
wouldnt waste points for magic items on them
on a big unit a banner is pretty useful
otherwise small units to flank might be great
Thanks for the essay. They seem decent. Definitely can bully other line troops. I think it is too easy to fall into the trap of believing they are elite though. Nothing Empire is elite enough to win against true elite troops 1 on 1. But greatswords do the job of holding against true elites better than regular state troops, so you can follow up with support on your turn.
I would keep them small and cheap, and position them on the flank to give my opponent a dilemma...engage the greatswords and get drawn hopefully into position that I can follow up with a flank charge, or my opponent can engage my main line and deal with the greatswords definitely hitting their flank.
Love this dudes
Greatswords were amazing in 7th edition. Only because it was the only edition where casualties didn't reduce your attacks from the front rank. Now that the Old World uses that rule again (each casualty is one less attack from the fighting rank) it's tough to justify them... You really need that charge and even then the Great Weapon initiative might not be high enough to strike first against some enemies. You want a position held though? yeah other than Flagellants that'll die faster they're the best at holding that ground to almost a man. EDIT: I keep forgetting that AP is rarer now. Which means that 4+ save will rarely be modified as compared to the previous edition(s).
You mean 8th edition as we had remove the attacks from casualties in 7th. However they would strike first if charging just had always strikes last after that.
8th edition... only small single spell made them crazy, e.g. Metal lore - +2 to armour made dame 2+ save.
*fighting to the last man* except they are never actually fighting but *fighting to the last man* . Dont include them. They are sheit. Very sadly so. Looking forward to the *inner cirly knights hype* video!
Just give them Strength 4 already. For once. Just once in the history of Warhammer, make Greatswords Strength 4. It's not wrong to do so. It's never been wrong.
Greatswords are okay. They are elite, for Empire. Compare them to other elites, and you start to see the shortfalls. Temple Guard and Black Orcs are tougher and have just as much output. Elven elites have better WS and I, meaning they will cut them to ribbons. Chaos Warriors with Mark of Khorne and halberds outclass Greatswords completely.
That said, they can be used cunningly. They are cheaper than other elites. Backed up by handguns to cut down the enemy units, greatswords are and excellent grinding anvil.
Imho they are kinda disapointing from a fluff perspective.
As touched upon in the State Troops videos, the empire's proffesional army shouldn't be a thing at this point in time. So I'd actually roll greatswords and veterans into one slightly worse but more flexible (in terms of upgrade options) unit. This would also allow to more fluffily represent stuff like Middenland Greataxe guys and stuff like it.
Also, full plater? Has anyone looked at the models? That isn't FULL plate! It's more like half plate and should really count as heavy armor. Reserve stuff like full plate, great weapon, elite infantry for Teutogen Guard in a Wolf Empire army of infamy!!
I think they should have come stock with veteran and drilled for 12 or 13 points.
@mordianglory I would be careful spending points on magical items on the champion. With only 1 wound they are an easy kill once engaged in combat as attacks can be directed towards him.
yep, but putting a magic resistance 2 might go a long way for them.
Them having Great weapons, do they always strike last, rather than they charged or they get charged?
If they get charged they strike last (I1)
If they charge they strike at (I1) + modifier for charging so up to +3 so would hit at (I4)
I wood give them the Griffon Standard
a panic test from shooting isnt a break test,
Probably the worst elite infantry in the game which is a shame because the models are great. They don't have the durability to tarpit and their offense isn't anything to write home about either especially since the vast majority of the time they will be swinging last. From a competitive standpoint your better off spending ~30 points more on a unit of demigryphs which are actually durable and can hit hard.
Demigryphs are an ugly abomination that should never have been added to Empire. 😅
No hat and armour though
Them not being a heavy infantry is a bad joke on rules development team part.
Low mass ;)
Yeah, that must be that joke i mentioned.
they arent heavy O.o
but is that good or bad for them?
gw cant make anything right...
@@SteelStorm33 full plate seems pretty heavy to me ;) Heavy infantry needs only 4 models for rank bonus and isn't as easily disrupted by a flank charge
I’m gonna be honest, this video is nearly unwatchable because of the constantly stuttering audio… I was really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the great swords. But after a minute or so, so much of it was unintelligible because of the audio cutting in and out that I had to give up.
Greatswords are on my to buy list. I'm planning to pick up the Mantic Games halfling knights/greatswords box. It'll get me some miniatures to use as Inner Circle Knights and greatswords, and if I like them I'll probably buy some of their other stuff so I can have halfling handgunners and Outriders.
Always pictured them a looking a bit different if we really followed the lore. With 4+ Dwarven forged full-plate these guys would probably look more like they just walked off the set of John Boorman's Excalibur. Furthermore, Sigmar's Empire would more likely have heavy Dwarven and lighter elf influence on their gear. The 16th century landsknecht has it's place but for me the models just never lived up to the background.
They are T3 S3 great weapon infantry. Stop comparing them to iron breakers and chaos warriors. Its silly.
They are decent but don't expect them to hold up to a charge of anything comparably priced. You are far better off soaking a charge with spears and counter charging. You should tone down your hyperbole.
Who pissed in you coffee? If you are familiar with Mordians content you would know he get´s excited about all kinds of stuff, sometimes justyfiably, sometimes not but thats not the same as being hyperbolic.
Greatswords suck unfortunately
How could you say such a thing?
Imagine being initiative 1. This post was made by lance gang.