IMPORTANT UPDATES! Leatt's own testing reported their neck braces vary from an alleged 17 to 46% effectiveness depending on the type of impact. See this chart. bit.ly/3C7pdyt RESEARCH ON NECK BRACES? See our vid here: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html BEWARE OF FAKE NECK BRACES Shot Racing incorrectly calls their race collar a 'neck brace'. Research shows race collars do not work. Some dodgy retailers are claiming the EVS race collar is a 'neck brace' on their websites. DISCLAIMER Do your own research. This video is only raising discussion points on the existing research. We make no warranties or representations regarding the content and suitability of this information for any purpose. Read our full disclaimer here: bit.ly/3JqGOp4 ENSURE CORRECT FITTING OF NECK BRACE: One research says there should be a maximum of a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively. bit.ly/3BjP8nL OUR COMPLETE NECK BRACE SERIES: bit.ly/34PzzYX FURTHER READING I put the EMS report last as many say it's not a true study (see details below). I put Leatt's report second last as Dr Leatt makes braces himself, so the chances of personal bias are high. smarter-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/The-Efficacy-of-a-Motocross-Neck-Brace-in-Reducing-Injury.pdf www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13588265.2012.700097 www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617221/ www.researchgate.net/publication/304101101_Finite_Element_Simulation_of_Neck_Brace_Protective_Equipment_for_Motorcycle_Riders leatt-cms-image.s3.amazonaws.com/2.3.4+White+Paper.pdf www.actionsportsems.com/safetystudies CRITICISM OF THE MUCH DEBATED EMS 'STUDY'! This report created a lot of controversy. Some think it proves beyond doubt that neck braces work. Many of us think it's a seriously flawed report. Please read this viewer's comment from bpastorb... "Sad to see so many MX riders believe that Great Lakes study to be factual information. Someone puts out some 'statistics', some fancy bar graphs then people believe it must be true because they don't know how to actually interpret the information. I am sorry to tell people but it's not a proper scientific study, not even close. The way in which they formed their final statistics and presented them should make anyone extremely hesitant in believing anything they have to say. I have read (and it would make sense) that the study was funded by the manufacturers of neck braces. I can't say that is true for sure but the results ended up being extremely beneficial for them. I initially believed it was a good attempt at putting more science into the topic of neck braces but it's quite the opposite and could be damaging to the sport if no further/better research is done now. The major major problem with any information they used is that they did not have sample sizes. They did not have a way, create a way, or even try to guess a way at determining extremely vital information. People think of it as unimportant but it is extremely important to determine any sort of statistical analysis like they went ahead and did. We know they recorded a period of time, and a certain amount of crashes. What they did not tell us is how many riders in the entire population were wearing neck braces compared to not wearing them. For example lets say you have a group of riders you watch for 10 years to see their injuries. 100 of them wear neck braces, 400 of them do not. Over 10 years, assuming neck braces were negligible to safety, did not harm people nor help them - You would expect to see 4 times as many spinal/neck injuries in the riders that did not wear neck braces, simply because there were 4 times as many of them. That would put neck braces exactly equal statistically compared with not wearing one, even though the amount of riders who got neck injuries was higher. Although 4 times as many riders were injured without the neck braces, since there were 4 times as many of them to begin with, the percentage of having a neck injury while crashing would be the same if you chose to wear one or not. If you have the same sample group and record them over 10 years and only 1/8 of the crashes resulting in neck injuries were by the riders wearing the neck braces, then that would provide legitimate evidence that neck braces make you safer. It would mean that riders wearing a neck brace were half as likely to get a neck injury compared to riders that did not wear one. Les say we have the same sample group but 40% of the neck injuries were riders wearing neck braces, and 60% were those not wearing braces. Someone might think 'hey, that still means neck braces make you safer right?' You could make a bar graph and pose this information as such (that is essentially what the great lakes ems team did). The truth of the statistics is that even though 60% of the neck injuries were riders not wearing one, it actually means they still had less overall neck injuries than riders that were wearing one in terms of a percentage. Meaning neck braces would cause more injuries than they prevent, even though numerically more riders were injured that weren't wearing one. Long story short is that the information from the study means nothing without knowing how many total riders were wearing the neck braces and how many total riders were not wearing the neck braces. We all know that the majority of riders do not wear them, meaning the results were very obviously skewed towards riders getting injuries who don't wear them. That is to be expected to a degree. The only major takeaway from that study is that wearing a neck brace almost for sure DOES cause increased risk of clavical/collarbone injuries. Since more riders ride without a brace and more collarbone injuries are from riders wearing the braces, you can almost for sure say that the braces increase your risk. Again it's impossible to say that for sure, or by how much without knowing totals or sample sizes."
I'd be very interested to see any research that discusses the effectiveness with gaps bigger than 5cm. We could only find this research that said bigger than 5cm made the neck brace ineffective. ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I broke my neck this April on the MX track, doc says my neck brace very likely prevented permanent damage or worse. I'd say they are worth the 'discomfort'
This is suddenly important to me, as a friend just had some number (unknown to me) of neck vertebrae fused due to a head bashing crash. I haven’t talked with him in person (he’s accepting visitors next week) to determine if a neck brace might have prevented this injury. I hope this vid gets lots of comments. Thanks for stepping into this steaming pile of controversy.
I hope your friend makes a full recovery, Tom! I looked into all the existing research a few years ago and my interest was revived after a recent spine fracture. You can see our review of all the main research findings here. th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
@@crosstrainingenduro I see all your stuff, man. Seriously, and way more than once. Why do you think I ride a DR? ;^ ) I also make it a point to conduct post incident interviews with anyone that's willing to talk... I see it as a critical element of my motorbike riding education. I know we are supposed to learn from *our* mistakes, but honestly, wouldn't you rather learn from the mistakes other people make? I'm certainly glad you are still vertical and fully mobile (I presume...?). Thanks again, don't stop.
I hope your friend recovers fully. I was recently in a bad head on with another rider 20 plus mph each. Was not my fault as rider came around the corner in my "lane" was on dirt trail. Trashed the frame on my beta the impact was so hard. Dude was on a xr600 and rider was at least 240lbs. We hit triple to triple and helmet to helmet. I didn't loose consciousness but lost vision for a few seconds " made me think of my whole life in that short period of time. For some miraculous reason I only had chest pain for a few hours. And a bad concussion. I'm incredibly amazed I didn't hurt anything else and really felt like I dodged a bullet. No neck brace only body armor, boots, knee guards. The other guy broke a wrist possibly both and had lacerations on his face. My forehead was bruised bad " regretfully had a cheap helmet " and the hard foam padding did a number on my forehead. Definitely going to upgrade to a premium helmet when I get my bike back.
Seems to me that if you're riding hills like in the video, don't wear a neck brace. On the other hand, if you're racing hare scrambles or MX in a flatter place, it might be a good idea. I wear mine all the time and have no issues but big hills are scarce where I ride.
I got a neck brace recently. Don't even notice it is on while riding. Played football, and Lacrosse and I wore much more restrictive pads but got used to them. Have ridden and raced motorcycles and bicycles since the mid '70s. I have good friends that had life changing brain and spine injuries and have spent decades (more than half their lives ) dealing with the results I have seen people die in motorcycle races, bicycle races, and in football games. I have two artificial hips and have broken several bones including my collar bone that a neck brace may have prevented. I'm 61 and in awesome shape and still ride and race bikes (motor and not) I love it and wear all the best protective gear I can. I might get hurt but I will have no regrets...
It's kind of like the seatbelt/helmet argument. If it's a problem when climbing steep hills. Just take it off for those hills or learn to adapt. Risk vs reward. Depends on a lot of factors. I don't have an issue with neck braces personally. They're restrictive in a sense but that's what they're designed for and it's the best solution to neck injuries which are very common when riding motorcycles. It's very likely to help the average rider than hurt them. Personally, I'd rather just slow down my pace since riding motorcycles is a hobby rather than a profession for me.
The neck brace can be and should be adjusted to become effective only at the very end of the range of voluntary movements. If it’s annoying, probably the adjustment to your individual body and body armour wasn’t good enough.
Actually there is research suggesting the gap should be no more than 5cm for neck braces to be effective. And some brands such as Alpinestar even recommend reducing this to 3cm if possible.
@@crosstrainingenduro My experience has been that neck braces are very much like helmets, in that the fit is very important. However, neck braces have not caught up to helmets, to the degree of fit for all the different body types. And like a helmet, if you are not comfortable, you are not likely to wear it. I got a Leatt STX Jason Britton Neck Brace for my son and me, and as we have similar body types, this brace is very comfortable, and with the wide rear support arms, this is perfect for wearing a Camel Bak type water bladder. I did have a serious crash wearing mine. Left turn in a small town in Mexico, and I will never really know if the brace did or did not prevent serious injury. However, dam near everything else was sore as heck for a week. What did happen was the brace compressed the talk/jog button on my Sena headset when I hit the pavement, and as such, my son got a very clear audit of all the exciting sounds that followed. :)
Been wearing one off-road riding and racing for years and have never had an issue looking around and assessing the terrain. I ride every kinda terrain there is. From east coast sand pine stick farms, to Colorado mountains. I have had a few get offs that required helmet replacement but no neck injury. ATGATT
are you sure you have the right-sized neck brace? it's supposed to limit your head movement. having issues with assessing comes with the territory with a properly adjusted brace.
Do you know how big the gap is between your helmet and neck brace? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively. "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I wore the original leatt brace end it definitely restricted movement more than I was happy with. Switched to the original alpine stars and same affect for the most part. I now use the new Leatt with one of their helmets and that is much better. Absolutely I can say it limits your ability to look up but you can compensate for that somewhat by arching your back temporarily and also rolling your eyes up. Not a perfect solution but it does work to help mitigate that issue. For me the potential of minimizingOr eliminating a neck injury is worth it. I have even worn them during trials training and or competitions and have learned to adapt to the restriction. I think in my opinion I can learn to adapt to that restriction much more than a wheelchair :-) that’s how I justify it to myself
I wear a Leatt 5.5. Love it. Don’t even know its on when on the bike. Very comfortable. The amount I have experienced what you are explaining is negligible. There is a range of adjustment for the brace. You might want to look at that.
Actually that's a good point, Peter. Some guys adjust their brace so there's heaps of movement. But there is research saying that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
IF you have this problem (not being able to look up/down enaugh due to brace), probably your helmet is not compatible with brace. Had same experience with old helmet+Leatt brace. Bought new Leatt helmet - suprise suprise- it works wonderfully with Leatt brace, 99% of time I even forget I wear neck brace. Dont blame brace for helmets design faults (as in video - shoei with sharp long rear edge, which looks cool, but drastically limits movement when looking up)
That could be the case in some situations. However another issue is research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively and this definitely makes it hard to look up at steep climbs: "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
Can't do it on the mountain Sled either. Going down a steep slope, into a drainage, getting ready to setup, to sidehill the opposite bank, and I'm looking at the creek bottom, instead of picking my line through the trees. Now we don't have trails backcountry riding, so reading the terrain to pick your line is crucial, losing momentum, and being stuck in a creek bottom, with 4ft of snow, Is allot harder to get out of. Momentum is everything on a sled.
I ride and race MX and off-road and I've never had any problems while wearing an Atlas brace. I'm on my second one. You're able to adjust the brace height and the back rests to change the fit. I don't notice I'm wearing it when I'm riding. But I don't try to talk other people into wearing them either. If I'm asked about it I tell them my experience and let them try it for themselves. It's your body. What gear you wear is your choice.
I’m very novice in the bike arena and am still trying to procure all the necessary bits. Lately I’ve been getting the impression that motorcycle riding gear is all about balancing out the levels of rigidity and ensuring there is no weak link in the chain. For example going for the firmest most rock solid boot that also tends to way a lot will then translate more force to the knees so then you go for full on knee braces but then the force moves up to the hips. . Etc. And by the time you’ve kitted everything out are you not then so uncomfortable and rigid that you can’t actually brace for an impact? I think to be fair in the MX world the heights and speeds involved pretty much give you no choice but to be kitted to the teeth but if you’re just exploring trails and dodging trees at a moderate speed what is enough? This video does make me think though is there not room for a D3O foam type neck brace that lets you move your head around but will resist sudden over extension? Sorry for the ramble
For me the required gear/most important is helmet,boots,googles and then gloves. My buddy fractured his neck it a crash and a neck brace is now a requirement for him. What it boils down to is how much risk are you willing to take? Another note though is how fast are you going because that almost always has the biggest part in the severity
It's the never ending balance balance between comfort and protection, Rob! And it will vary from rider to rider of course. I would always suggest seeing what the research says. E.g. we investigated knee braces a few years back. Many claim that these break femurs instead which is even worse, but it's all anecdotal evidence and not backed by research. We have covered the neck brace research here: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
I don’t know, for the first month of riding with one I found it uncomfortable but now Ima t the point where I don’t ride without it, makes me feel much more safe. Worth any discomfort for having even a small chance of saving myself permanent damage in a crash
I've been riding with my Atlas for 9 years and 1) I never ride without it either, and 2) I never even notice it once on. I used to race bicycles and there were those guys who wouldn't wear a helmet when training because it was uncomfortable to them. WELL, I wore mine all the time and during a race, I was never bothered by the 'discomfort'. I think they were short sighted and whiney fools. You NEVER plan the accident.
Neck brace should not limit your natural head movement much. Point of it is preventing your heat tilting too far, and too far is when damages starts to happen to your spine. If you can not look around it is adjusted wrongly, is wrong size or wrong type. Get different one, contact your supplier or manufacturer.
the problem is your body is squishy. your helmet contacting is not where it stops in a crash. if its is set to not limit your movement normally it will overextend in a crash. the recherche says the gap should be 5cm all around and Alpinestars says 3 cm. that will totally limit your movement but that is safe.
Actually there is research indicating you should not be able to move your head too much, Janne. Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I’ve never owned a neck brace because when I tried one on it was awful. I ditched the oversized body armour too… here’s the truth - if it limits your movement or makes you too hot, you’re more likely to crash. I broke my neck and separated both of my shoulders like 10 weeks ago in a dirt bike accident, extension teardrop fracture from a head on collision. Would a neck brace have saved my neck? Possibly, but the neck healed itself and was fine, I’m still struggling with the separated shoulders, a neck brace would’ve likely made those injuries worse. After a full knee dislocation and several foot breaks… I like the idea of good boots and knee braces. For upper body armour, I just wear chest/spine and a helmet. I race in the 30A class or intermediate class, and often do a lot of extreme alpine riding - most of the injuries I’ve seen wouldn’t have been stopped by a neck brace or shoulder pads.
In our group we wrestle with those decisions between comfort and protection, Jason. E.g. as summer kicks in we often won't wear body armour as we figure heat exhaustion at some point will make us more likely to crash. But of course if we break some ribs we'll be regretting that choice...
There's a few top level MX pros who ditched their neck and knee braces this past SX/MX season and they had marked improvements in their performance with the added freedom and mobility. I'm starting to subscribe to the less is more approach, and ditching the hockey getup in riding settings I'm already comfortable and familiar with. If I'm in a new area or know I'll be taking risks, then full pads, but my local single-track rides have been a huge eye opener when I go minimalist like the racer kids do. Also the neck braces can create a leverage hinge point (think crowbar) that can create a different type of injury, so it's not like they offer absolute protection, just a specific case set. Now what would be common/likely to happen is up for debate and impossible to surmise, but I feel that this tech is at the thin edge of the wedge with questionable advantages, unlike helmets and riding boots.
With dirt bike body armor my Leatt NB sits lower & don't even notice it, however, resting on my rallye jacket when riding my 990 in technical terrain, it annoys me sometimes when it hooks out of my backpack shoulder straps and catches the Sena comms on my helmet. They are pricey but had mine now for 5 yrs.
One thing to keep in mind, Sean. One research paper said the gap between your helmet and neck brace should be less than 5cm for it to work. "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf If you are interested in more research, we looked into it all with this vid: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
@@crosstrainingenduro thanks for the feedback and links. As a paramedic I have dealt with many paralyzed patients. We can't control everything that happens in an accident, just control that what we can (what we wear). Also, the value of a NB if you take how durable they are (lifespan) vs cost, it's relatively good value provided it's not a pain in the @rse to wear if you can fit it with minimal disruption to looking up & sideways. Will a seatbelt in a plane crash save your life - probably not. But, essentially all plane crash survivors had their seatbelts on. For me, the risk/cost/benefit analysis justifies wearing it.
I see it like this. Sure a cellphone case adds weight, is bulky, and adds Width..But will allow the phone to last forever...This is your body not a phone so GEAR UP!!
I see it being an issue about speed mostly. If you're doing desert race type riding, where average speeds are quicker and the terrain rough as hell, but not enduro-type, then a brace makes sense. The stuff you guys are riding I agree... limited movement is more of an issue. That said, I've never hit my neck brace on my helmet in a way that restricted my movement (perhaps I have a giraffe neck), and it doesn't bother me to wear it... far worse is my rucksack full of water and other essentials... that makes me feel encumbered (though even that has been welcomed in a high-speed off). All depends on what you're doing I guess.
At this stage I won't wear one, but if I ever took up motocross or desert riding I would. One thing to keep in mind, research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
Its not really the topic of this video but I have an extremely negative experience with neck braces. I got one of the first one that came out, the original leatte. I was doing a little more dangerous stuff(freestyle on pitbikes) so I figured Id spend the money on the added protection as I was starting to learn the backflip so landing odd was very likely. A few months later when I crashed at a mx track on a pitbike exiting a rhythm section my head hit the ground. It honestly wasnt that bad of a crash, pretty much just a 10mph toss to the side from maybe 2ft off the ground. When I got up to pick the bike up had a sharp pain in my shoulder and sure enough the brace had pinched down in a way from the side load and snapped my collar bone into 3 pcs. This is 13yrs later and I still occasionally have trouble with my nerves and muscles in that area(mainly spasms that tense up my neck and I cant move until it stops). I still ride as much as I can but I mostly dont use a brace unless it a soft frame unlike that original design. I will say they did redesign them to load other areas but I will never get one again. I currently have an EVS model that as i mentioned is softer but I dont use it much other than for mx tracks but I usually just ride trails and hare scrambles.
A friend of mine stopped using his original Leatt because the rear support went directly on to the spine and many were critical of this... I don't know if it ever caused problems but they did change the design after that. That's a shame about your collar bone, most of the time they heal up with zero issues.
@@crosstrainingenduro yea that was another concern of mine as well. I should have probably had a surgery to get it right but it wasnt horribly out of place (bones where still aligned when it firdt happened and about 4 weeks in) it was just the soft tissue that didnt show up until about 6 months later when it was already all solidified and i started using it as usual. It does seem to have gotten better the last 2-3yrs though
I wear a Leatt carbon fibre one for adventure riding and vintage race track riding. I don’t even know that I’m wearing it (apart from big rear neck twists to look backward). If the stats show that I have a percent advantage wearing it - why not?! Nothing to lose.
Being a dilettante, I always thought the ring was more to protect in case of being run over by the following rider(s) which, in enduro or cross country, seems to happen a lot because the riders behind seem to be more concerned about their momentum than about stopped or fallen riders in their path. About a year ago we had a national high profile cross country fatality close to the start of an event and on track internationally there have been three fatalities due to being run over only this year. Now, I don't know whether a neck brace does anything if anyone braaps 300cc of two stroke power over it, but I would rather there be something between my neck and a tyre, angles be damned. Also, I am somewhat concerned about the limitation to natural angles the neck, if the brace would limit to 100% natural movement and then stonewall the movement, it should be good, but stonewalling probably can not happen. I just picked up a cheap donut shaped neck brace and it is so invisible to me, I went to the store returning home from a ride and impressed young members of the (probably) opposite sex with my reflective orange KTM jacket, only for my undoing to be the non KTM badged neck donut thing. Beware, it might happen to you!
If a safety gear ends up adding on more risk than it prevents then it’s not a good piece of equipment. However, majorly reduced risk of permanent spinal damage makes all discomforts that come with it acceptable. I wear a leatte with a 6D helmet on the race tracks and during a training session I told the instructor I could not see through the turn because I literally could not turn my head anymore. The instructor showed me how to modify my riding to allow me to make it through safely and effectively. If you are finding the neck brace is holding you back, first see if you can make some adjustments to yourself to make it work. Also you may need to find a helmet and neck brace combo that works together.
yes, I found the same problem. Still I accepted it for 4 years for the safety. The same 4 years I've have a lot of upper back, neck and shoulder pain that would never go away. Recently I stopped wearing it to see if it was the cause of the pain.. 2 things happened, the pain started to get better right away until the point now, 6 months later it's completely gone. 2, I felt more free and fluid on the bike to the point where my riding buddies all have mentioned a noticeable improvement.
Earlier this summer I was riding at a slower speed on a very narrow edge above the deep mud hole when I hit tree bark. The mud hole could probably accommodate a Jeep, but we are not talking about ravine or anything even considerably deep. The angle of my entry into that hole was rather unfortunate. Almost vertically onto my head and then shoulder. A nice and safe Alpinestar helmet had to be discarded, side of the neck is still sore after a couple of months. I was wearing a brace and it might've helped as I collided with the ground at some angle. But I don't know for sure. One thing I know is that I would not ride without a brace even on a slower track. Don't underestimate weight/velocity and the entry angle even at the lower speed. Unless you are a superman or a superwoman with a well developed neck. I did judo competitively and we had quite a lot of neck injuries, there is a reason why all training included serious neck muscles pumping. People are thrown from a similar height than the bike seat when wrestling. Sure, the throws off the bike are not as frequent, but there is always that chance to wreck a neck. I did forget the entire assembly, the rooster and the brace on a couple of occasions, and although I still rode on those days, I was super skittish. But yes, indeed, I do feel free in my movements without those. However, to me, being on a bike is the only ultimate experience of freedom.... regardless of what I mount on myself. I want to keep myself on the bike, regardless of weight of gear...... rather to be off and on a couch due to injury. I have a friend who worked as a paramedic for a while. Heard enough stories from the trenches. While most involve on-the-road bikers, I refuse to partake in any kind of statistics.
Our test group had big issues with that Randy. I'm sure if the terrain was flat there would be way less issues... or if they didn't need to look down in gnarly terrain to see if they could get traction or not.
I ride with one now as I had an experience with a friend: riding some tight single track and we came across two trees down across the trail, trees were at neck level as they fell down from the uphill side of the trail. My friend leading and I following, friend ducks under the first no problem, and as he is coming back up I can only guess the visor blocked the second one and he gets it right in the eyes and it cleans him off the bike. I come around the corner to see him on the ground and I can’t tell if I am looking at the front or back of his helmet as the impact with the tree smashed the visor into and behind the chin bar. Fortunately he only broke one of the armour bones in his vertebrae and not the main structure of the vertebrae itself. It’s not always the hard technical stuff that’s going to get you sometimes it’s just a little thing that you don’t even have to think about. Neck brace would have prevented that injury!
Glad he survived that one, Matt! That sounds like hyperextension e.g. the head being tilted back and Leatt's own research says that's the type of impact where neck braces will be most effective (e.g. 46% effective). It's interesting to note that if you get an impact directly on the chinbar which just moves your whole head back instead of tilting then Leatt reckons they are only 17% effective. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
1:21 the lateral motion restriction looks very dangerous to me, looks, like a hard hit could pull your head right off your shoulders due to the leverage. Move your head to the side, with no neck device, during an impact don't you feel like your head will touch your shoulder, it might hurt like hell and cause 'some' injury, but not ratchet your head clean off your body, if you were wearing the neck device.
I got a leate brace and thor body amour 2 different manufacturers the neck brace proved to be more likely to strangle and prevent head movements, one when the body amour is wasted I will try leatt chest protector and retry the brace
I bought a cheap EVS brace several years ago when my mates started wearing their braces. I found the same issue with that brace as mentioned in the video., namely that I was unable to look ahead and finished every ride with strained neck muscles from trying to crane my neck. I found the brace in the wardrobe again only the other day while looking for something else...
@@crosstrainingenduro Hard to say, I don't really ride much flat terrain 🤷♂️ About the only thing we ride that is properly flat is riding on the beach with my adult sons and I wouldn't wear it there. All the other locations we ride involve some kind of hilly terrain.
I got a Leatt brace back in ‘09 for snowmobile racing. I wore it for a few races and was glad I was using it during a very high speed wreck when I was thrown onto ice and broke my arm and got knocked out. I believe I even started to scorpion a bit. But, fast forward a few years and it has been sitting collecting dust for many years now. It’s uncomfortable, hard to find compatible jackets that work with it, and if makes me feel claustrophobic. I rarely see any other racer wearing one. It’s like they faded away? They are difficult to use when wearing layers of clothing, a Tek-Vest (winter chest protector) and a jacket. I’ll keep reading through the comments. Not sure if I should try it again or see if a new, modern one fits better?
That seems like a fatal flaw for enduro riders. What are the pro's going to do? Sometimes they set a good example because their sponsors want to protect their investments. Thanks for posting!
For years Graham Jarvis just used stock suspension, but recently he's been using some aftermarket shock apparently... and some viewer is trying to convince me this means we should all spend money on our suspension because Graham does. 😂 If the pro riders are paid to use a product, or at the very least given it for free, of course they'll use it. It doesn't always mean we should buy it too.
I think it depends on the type of riding. I saw no Neck Braces in recent Hard Enduro Competition Videos. I don´t use it on my trials bike and on enduro it depends on the type of terrain. I made exactly same experience as you described and lost a lot of fun at riding with the restricted ability to look up (depends on Helmet and Brace combination, newer helmet and old brace didn't work). Using an Orthema brace, adjusted to maximum possible freedom of movement ist OK in most terrain, with possibly already too much clearance to have maximum protection. Best regards, Erhard
It's interesting to see they've dropped off a lot in supercross and motocross too. I don't think this necessarily proves they don't work of course. But it suggests at least some riders have found them too restrictive or uncomfortable. You can see a range of opinion from mx riders here: www.motoheadmag.com/brace-yourself-neck-protection-what-the-riders-think-of-neck-braces/
You could adjust your visor so that you have more visibility range, even cutting it a bit shorter would be better than possible nerve damage and paralysis. And NO, I've never run into your situation of riding down a giant U where I couldn't see the uphill before I started my decent in the first place.
That's an interesting idea, fredman.... trimming the visor. Part of the problem is that a properly set up neck brace will only have a 5cm gap between the brace and helmet which can be restricting. Many riders have a much bigger gap though. "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I ride with one, and I don't experience the issue you're describing. I ride a ton of technical and steep riding. It seems like it doesn't fit you well, or doesn't integrate with your other gear well.
One of the studies we read said there should only be a 5cm gap or less for the brace to work effectively, Adam... and our test group did find this made looking up or down in steep/gnarly terrain difficult. If there is a bigger gap there's no indication of how much less effective the brace is though.
@@crosstrainingenduro I'll have to measure the gap on my brace and helmet. I totally see "my helmet hits my brace and makes interference" as a thing, I just don't think it's the 'endgame' for braces. As mentioned, though, I'll have to check the gap on mine to see if I'm well over 5cm (it probably is...)
Its the age old adage of "you dont need it, till you need it." There is more to making this work than initially meets the eye. I too have a leatt neck brace and did not like it at all at first. Could not raise my head enough. Was sore as hell after the first ride I needed to go back and do several adjustments on the brace and it was much better. In addition, my body position was not great. Arched back instead of flat and , need unlocked hips and , shoulders back w chest out. I even put a mirror in my garage and could see the difference of proper body position vs. what I thought was proper. Once I had good body position, The brace did not limit the needed tilt back much if at all. This however requires additional work including changes to your gym workouts. You need strong gluteus muscles to drive good body position. Does this mean you will not hurt your neck? I would say not. But, it does dramatically help to solve the problem of limited range of motion for your head if you do want to wear one.
We had this initially as a problem for mountain biking when we tried to use dirtbike braces. Then they made braces for mountain biking. And that is what I use dirt bike riding so that you can extend your neck slightly more. Still gives you very good protection, without the limitations of a dirtbike brace
Do you know how big the gap between the helmet and brace is? One research paper says it should be 5cm max. One concern I have is that to look up at steep climbs easily from the base the gap may need to be quite a bit bigger...
I used a evs neck roll for years riding mx, once I switched to enduro I quickly removed it from my chest protector. Another annoying piece of gear I use is my klim nac pack. The top carry handle also touches my helmet. I want to cut it off but its so handy
What about inflatable airbag vests that don't hinder your movements when riding, but protect your torso and act as a neck brace when crashing and inflated? On the other hand, they might pop when you experience your usual offroad tumble and then you're stuck with either a big balloon on your chest pressing against you, or let the air out and have a non-operational safety device...
I just started looking into those last week, Stefan. But I couldn't find any actual research. They look as if they'd restrict air flow badly in hot weather.
@@crosstrainingenduro can you re-inflate on the trail? Cause multiple yet minor get-offs in one ride are not uncommon as you know. Most small incidents wouldn't require deployment, but I don't think you can stop mid-air and decline their services.
@@tommeyer6033 There are various different types of airbag vests, the one I'm looking at (Helite Turtle 2) use standard CO2 canisters so you could definitely just replace them on the spot. I'm not sure if the manufacturer would recommend blowing the airbag multiple times a day, but I personally probably wouldn't be too worried. EDIT: One thing that I probably would be worried about is damage to the airbag system itself. Most of those are engineered for road use in mind, and I'm not certain how they would fare if you fell on a branch or sharp rocks.
The limitation you describe is exactly why I stopped wearing one. I only wore it for a few rides anyway, but that was enough for me to figure out that I wasn’t going to keep it. I have the Leatt chest protector that is compatible with the neck brace that I wear on every ride though.
Ever since I started riding off-road again I've worn Leatt's Fusion combined chest protector/neck brace. Honestly I don't think I've really "felt" the issue discussed here, perhaps I've just learned to adjust my hips & upper body to accommodate the limitation in neck movement. The only time I "feel" the limited range of movement is when I'm stopped and attempt to drink from my camelbak or stretch my neck/shoulders. I see this similar to driving a race/track car with 2 feet when it doesn't have a clutch pedal (paddle shifters/sequential transmission). You've driven your whole life using 1 foot for the gas and brake pedal (no neck brace)... learning how to modulate brake pressure with your other foot (your other joints) is difficult and seems unnecessary, despite the potential lap time (safety). Change is difficult, no matter how big or small...
Do you know how big the gap between brace and helmet is, Matt? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm maxiumum gap for it to work effectively. I've seen quite a few photos where riders have almost triple that so obviously no problems with range of movement but I suspect the brace could be far less effective.
@@crosstrainingenduro I'm not sure what the "how to measure" standard is, but between the top of the brace at the back to the bottom of my Shoei VFX Evo helmet it is 10cm... with my head in a relatively neutral position. Lots of variables to influence the measurement there but it does restrict my movement, just not enough to annoy me.
That's a good point, Matt. What is the measuring standard? I'd just assumed it would be when you've got an even gap at the front and rear but who knows?
I started noticing my riding position was wrong due to a neck brace - my knees were right under my elbows because I couldnt tilt my head up properly to look forward. I have lowered my rear flap of the brace significantly so that I can properly look forward in full attack position - exactly when the helmet touches the brace. I would think / hope the brace would still definitely help for side and front tilts and partially for back tilts as well - as my helmet touches the rear lip of the brace still within my “normal” range of motion (close the border of that range of motion)
Hopefully the brace will still work, Mikhail. There was a study that recommended the helmet/brace gap should not be over 5cm or the brace becomes ineffective. ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf Leatt's research showed neck braces are most effective at hypextension (e.g. head tilting back) but the effectiveness drops off rapidly for other movements. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
@@crosstrainingenduro Well, I have relatively long neck and I gives me peace of mind wearing it. I have older version fo GPX 5.5, which was really a noticeable limitation (not like the new ones that are so thin, that they might not work at all). I know 2 people with cervical vertebrae fused due to injury riding a dirtbike - both werent wearing a brace. I dont have evidence to state that it wouldnt have happened had they been wearing it. My approach is to find sort of sweet spot to be able to ride in proper position and have sufficient range of motion to look where I need to - this is both key to ride correctly and safely - while still somewhat limiting extreme angles...the rest is in the hands of higher power.
I figure everyone will make different decisions on the comfort versus protection issue, Mikhail. I know I'd be wearing one if I did a lot of high speed high risk riding, even if the research isn't all that clear about their effectiveness. Leatt's own study was incredibly detailed but I wonder why he never had it published? Independent scrutiny would go a long way to confirming his findings.
Breaking your neck won’t allow you to look any direction, so... for me it’s very much worth the “discomfort “, which many times is due to bad adjustment of the neck brace
I must admit the idea of being paralysed is a disturbing one, David. I would mention though that adjusting your brace to allow too much head movement may not be a good idea. Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
@@crosstrainingenduro You argue in the vid about too much restriction of movement, then you argue here that you need less movement. You are intellectually inconsistent here so now this video sound like just click bait and doesn't move the needle on rider safety. What is your agenda if not more safety?
I started wearing them racing mx and kept going over the bars in whoops and smaller rhythms 😅. After I shattered my collarbone in big whoops I stopped wearing it and never went over the bars again.
1:42 So true, we need every possible inch of movement to be able to see where we're going, next. I find this problem exists with goggles as well they cut off a good 12% or so of our peripheral vision, and also , downward vision, there are many times while riding that I need to look down, that visibility is hampered. I like a full visor for that reason, it gives me back my peripheral and down vision. Goggles could be designed to lessen those loses, but that takes 'thinking', burning brain cells. lol
In technical terrain, we are always looking down to pick the best line or see if we have rocks in front of the rear wheel... a neck brace would be very frustrating.
Do you know how big the gap between brace and helmet is, Greg? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm maxiumum gap for it to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I've been debating about trying one for years. I find I move my helmet to it's extreme range of motion already on a regular basis. A lot of time is spent looking down at rock gardens trying to find footing and traction too. Maybe one day if I have some extra cash floating around, I'll try one. But for now, I'll just stick with what I know works for me.
Same here David, we are forever looking down in gnarly terrain. And then up when riding down and out of a gully. If I was into desert racing or motocross I'd be considering one though...
Most people adjust the neck brace far too tightly and are then hindered in their movement. The point is to protect against an extreme end position of the cervical spine. I do not feel the NB and always wear it when we ride fast rallies and the falls are at high speed. Maybe it's a head thing. In any case, it sucks to put on and these things take up a lot of space in the bag.
I have worn a brace from day one and perhaps that’s why I don’t know any better. Can’t feel it in most rides but my elevation changes are not extreme where I ride. After a fast off and slide down the trail on my head, l walked away with only scratches convinced my Leatt saved my neck. If only it could save my ego and pride and help my slow wheelies. We all decide what risks to take and what research to follow, I’ll personally will never ride without it.
When it comes to motocross, I raced and trail rode fpr years and never wore one. Now with my KLR I wear one, but a lot of the reason is because I can give my neck a rest on long highway rides by taking the weight off my neck. When it comes to more technical on a motocross bike, I never like gear that restricts my movement.
I know the feeling from long days on the adventure bike... out of interest, do you know how heavy your helmet is? A few years ago I scrapped my 1.7kg helmet and bought a 1.25kg replacement and found the neck strain disappeared on long rides.
Alpinestars Sequence Neck Brace is what I use. Made of solid foam. Really comfy and light. Only comes in Youth size, so I’ve added some high density foam to expand the neck circumference. 😅 I ride my 701 only on slow technical sections, where I need to look down a lot and this works. Far more movement than ‘normal’ neck braces, but has still saved my spine twice!!!
The problem is the research shows those are completely ineffective though, and it's why they are normally called 'neck rolls' or 'race collars' instead of braces. The relevant study is in this vid. ttps://th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html Part of the problem appears to be that once you have a lot of head movement a proper neck brace becomes ineffective e.g. another study showed the gap from helmet to brace should only be 5cm max.
@@crosstrainingenduro Definitely don't disagree with what you are saying, but definitely know that this Alpinstars roll/brace saved me on the first day - when I didn't see a large tree limb (maybe 6" diameter) at just above helmet peak height, that pushed my head back so violently the shock went through my entire spine. I was at the top of a steep descent and was too focused on looking down. Our necks can move forward a long way, but it's the back movement that is the danger. On this day, without the brace, I may have ended up in a wheelchair!
I will always wear a neck brace. My first one saved me twice from neck injury, the second instance it broke and needed to be replaced. My only issue is with looking back to see if my friends are still there. Looking up isn't an issue much and we have alot of elevation change in our trails.
Seems like it restricts your visibility in any direction which would result in more crashes especially when momentum is the key. So it's a hard no for me. Maybe more useful for the indoor guys.
Neckbraces came in early 2000's if i remember correctly. Many generation ride without one still there were no large number of injuries. If one chooses to ride without a neckbrace it's fine, there is always a possibility to get injured badly or even die. A brace might save you, or it might not. Personaly i dont use one.
One of the research papers found that 5% of injuries involved the spine for enduro riders so these injuries are less common... but of course they can be life changing too.
I don’t disagree with points made in the video, however The newer generation of Leatt neckbrace paired with a Leatt helmet allows quite a bit more range of movement over the last generation.
We haven't covered all the research in this video, but a potential problem is that research seems to show you should only have a 5cm gap maximum between the helmet and brace for them to work effectively. I have often seen riders wearing braces with over double this gap who of course say their range of movement is fine.. but is the brace effective in those cases? Here is the relevant quote: "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I got thrown off a bike in an enduro by another rider hitting my back wheel. I hit a tree top of head first like an arrow, helmet was crushed on top, (Klim Kevlar/Carbon Fiber), neck had pretty serious compression injuries in a medical knock brace for a long time. Atlas brace saved my life I’m convinced. I use the new adventure riding model now that came out last year, seeing up hills with that is way easier than the moto model. I was wearing that in the accident. I’m pro neck braces. Odd part is it was only my second time wearing one in enduro.. I was against them for years..
Nasty. I'm glad you survived that one. Leatt's research reckon braces are only about 17% effective with that sort of downward impact on the top of the helmet... you can see the chart here: bit.ly/3C7pdyt And I think that's if you have the correct fit e.g. 5cm of less between the helmet and brace. But you never know if the brace just did enough to prevent a catastrophic injury! That's always a problem in races, you can be well within your comfort zone but then you get that wild-eyed racer taking you out.
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It seems the issue is the melding of neck brace and helmet to allow the necessary tilt angles. Or don't wear one. Its your neck and if you break it off road, it won't affect MY insurance prices...or will it? Gosh, apparently it does.
Do you ride with many people who wear a neck brace in enduro? I do a lot of hill climbs but been thinking about doing some races this year so looking to get some more protection.
One of the guys in our group wore one for a few years but eventually stopped. It wasn't comfortable and we do a lot of steep descents and climbs on our rides.
Seems like the slow technical trails you have shown arent really the target market of most neck braces. aimed more at racers and stunters than sunday morning cruisers
I think it's good for guys who tear up a motorcycle track or who do desert runs at high speeds. You know...those guys catching huge air, scrubbing at stupid speeds. All packed with a bunch of other insane guys doing the same thing right next to them. I can see wearing a brace in that situation. Most of my riding is slow technical stuff now. No more bouncing across the desert at 50 mph. When I crash now, it's slow. And most of the time I see where its probably going to happen and look where I'm going to try to get off if it does go sideways. It's those times you don't see it coming are the ones that get ya. I'm more worried about landing on my shoulder or hitting a rock buried in the sand and dislocating my finger again. Damn that hurt! It felt odd and disconcerting at first not wearing it after so many years. Took a few rides without it before I relaxed and started to enjoy it not being there. Don't miss it now. Cooler too, more air flow.
Personally I've come to a similar conclusion, Jay. In all our slow technical riding, there's only been one crash where a neck brace could have been good. I slipped on a steep descent and rammed a dirt bank with my head. But even then it was a combination of force straight down through the spine and some sideways movement... both are impacts that Leatt's own research said neck brace effectiveness drops to 17% (they are best at hyperextension according to Leatt - 47%). I had a sore neck for a day or two then all good so I was very lucky. It's always a balance between comfort and protection, and we have to hope we don't regret our decisions one day!
Wondering if a soft neck brace would have any effect at all compared with those hard ones and being bit more comfy…then again, whatever brings even slight increase on your chances to avoid serious injuries might be better than nothing, right?
Each to there own I run one You can rebuild a knee can't rebuild a neck I don't have huge issues with not being able to see up the trail (I did when I first got it) I did check after looking at you statistics about it needing to be 50mm from your helmet and mine was about 65mm
I have an Atlas neck brace and it does not hinder my normal range of motion. If it was uncomfortable it would not wear it. Those Leatt braces do not look comfortable.
It does seem that a correctly set up neck brace should restrict motion though? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
@@crosstrainingenduro the real world data seems a lot more compelling than abusing crash test dummies. A brace that is only effective at the limit of normal range of motion is surely less effective than immobilizing the head, but since I don't notice the while riding I don't see much of a reason to stop wearing one entirely.
For me it comes down to speed. Trials, technical enduro, Nope. Start moving at significant pace like rally, Adv, fast enduro, yep, chuck it on. Leaving the ground and hanging out in the air, most definitely. It’s about projected force of impact I am likely to experience on the ride. It’s up to you to weigh up your own risk/reward compromise.
Completely agree. Some riders tend to be very black and white and either say neck braces are useless, or you are crazy not to wear one. But given the limited evidence for their effectiveness I agree each rider needs to It’s up to you to weigh up their own risk/reward compromise. E.g. I'd wear one if I was into mx or desert racing, but not for our slow technical riding. And I just hope I don't regret my choice!
A fellow rider broke his neck and died a few meters behind me, on a fairly simple stadium contraption. Not ever riding without one. Never advice anyone listen to anyone saying anything against wearing it. Pretty sure his wife and little daughter agree with me.
I think we should always look at the pros and cons of any protective gear, Kirill. And also the research. I have also seen people say "My neck brace broke my collar bone, never buy one!" If you watch our video series you will see we don't advise viewers what to do, we just present the benefits and problems.
Can't there also be a danger of "cantilevering" ... not sure if this is the correct term but because the ground (for example) is trying to bend your head back, and the brace prevents it, that your neck will get extended and your vertebrae separated?
Nasty business... internal decapitation, or more correctly atlanto-occipital dislocation. None of the research mentioned this so I don't know if it's a risk or not. It certainly could be with those foam collars or 'race collars' which pretend to be neck braces.
Downhill Mountain biking, yes. Normal mountain biking, no. Desert blasting, yes. Hard Enduro type riding, no can't stand it. Trailriding, no. And yes, I have crushed a vertebrate wearing a brace on the MTB, it possibly saved my neck. But I find the lack of mobility, vision and balance from the restriction is a bigger hazard for my preferred type of dirtbiking.
I had the same experience, I found I couldn’t look up enough when coming down into a creek and the trail climbs up again For sale 1 x leatt ktm neck brace 🤦♂️
It's a shame this happens for enduro riding, Mark. And when you look at the research the neck braces are most effective at preventing hyerextension of the neck... so if you allow the helmet to move up enough you are reducing its effectiveness at the one type of impact it works best against. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
Anyone in 2024 looking for a brace just get a Atlas Air or Leatt 5.5 or 6.5 and nothing else. A helmet that works well also works, I have no issues riding or looking up with my Leatt 6.5 and o'neal Srs10 helmet. Now if I was to do extreme enduro I would ditch the brace but for MX and Traditional Enduro I use it every time without any issues.
Quite a few well regarded youtube MX coaches hate them, reckon it makes good posture and technique impossible - making a crash more likely. I think, in the end, there are reasons to wear one and reasons not to. Do what works for you, accept that others will do different. And don't gloat if you hear that someone who does different gets hurt! This is dirt biking after all. It happens.
I`d rather have a limited range of motion while riding than a permanent spinal injury. Crashed hard and as a result have two spinal fusions in my thoracic and cervical spine. Without my neck brace it would have been a very different outcome.
Did the doctors say a neck brace could help reduce thoracic fractures, Anthony? I did my T3, T4 and T5 in 2020 and they said there's no protective gear that helps with compression fractures there... but of course it's different for C fractures.
Did Leatt say anything about the correct gap between helmet and neck brace? One research paper says a max of 5cm or they are ineffective. Apparently the manual for the Alpinestar neck brace says the same thing...
@@crosstrainingenduro I went over the bars on a drop off and got folded in half by my bike. No neck brace so hyperextended my neck almost a broken neck and lights out. I now use a Leatt 5.5 all the time. If helmet clearance is an issue the mountain bike version is just as good but allows more backwards movement so looking up not so much of an issue. Keep safe.
The helmet and neck brace must be fitted correctly to your body. Fitment is everything. Absolutely wear neck braces! This argument about not being able to look up is asinine. 🙉
Why ride at all if the risks are sooooo great? We literally die everyday. If you(people in general) find it uncomfortable but you see it as a must have,chances are you'll ride less.
It depends what sort of terrain you ride, Derek. A properly fitted neck brace will have a 5cm gap or less between the brace and helmet for it to work effectively, according to research (and some manufacturer's manuals too). Our crew found this very restrictive in steep terrain. You'll see other viewers have too. If you ride in flat terrain or don't have a correctly fitting neck brace then your argument will be the weak one.
I run into the same problem. Why can’t a neck brace be designed to allow the normal range of motion since it’s only trying to stop the non-normal range of motion?!?! 🤷♂️
Unfortunately the research shows if the gap between the helmet and brace gets too big then the brace is ineffective. th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
If I remember correctly, even Leatt's own figures quote a measly 15%, 25% and Max 40% "efficacy" if you will, in reducing movement or impact force. In my opinion this is not a convincing result in protecting my neck. Maybe there is the placebo effect that makes people relax more when riding / falling and not getting injured. A bit like cases where people asleep or drunk during a car crash are not injured? I'm being devil's advocate here, only because I'm disappointed by the figures.
Leatt's testing claims they are 46% effective against hyperextension (e.g. head tilting back) but for forward and sideways it drops off very quickly. There's a handy chart here: content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/108/934/original/leatt_bracechart-705.jpg?14688600065
@@crosstrainingenduro yeah I read most of the white paper. Impressive research and great great work on Dr Leatt's part. There just isn't enough real work research on the efficacy, obviously due to the fact that not all accidents are recorded, and that's just the nature of the sport really. I am impressed tho that Leatt's website has an accident recording function. Maybe we should all be encouraging the use of this platform, to get a larger sample group, including accidents that don't result in spinal injuries as well. Thanks for the awesome channel keep up the good work 👏
I was really hoping that Leatt would get his white paper published in a peer reviewed journal, that would greatly increase its validity. I'm not saying he's misrepresented his info of course, but good science means getting verification from other specialists. He does seem to have been impartial though, with his own research showing his braces vary from 17 to 46% effectiveness depending on the type of impact. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
I don't know man... I've watched the introduction of them into F1 over the years as well as the hump on the leathers of GP racing. Neither of those disciplines have any shortage of engineers, researchers, risk management and desire to win with their high paid drivers/riders. Im not educated enough to argue or debate.
I figure none of us know enough to really argue the point, Dave. The furthest we've gone is our vid investigating all the research to date and then hopefully that will help riders make up their minds.
@@crosstrainingenduro I've also been a paramedic, Medevac Paramedic, medivac Nurse and currently Trauma/Covid ICU nurse for 20yrs. Seen hundreds of paralyzed folks as a result of various mechanism of injury. Only one was paralyzed riding a dirt bike, motocross specifically. And no brace. Crazy eh' I still don't know what any of that means though.... Braces work so no visit to ICU or dirtbike injuries don't produce significant spinal injuries for those not wearing a brace.
Interesting, I've just had a bit of a google... it mainly had an aerodynamic purpose but then they started to use it of storing electronics, gadgets, water etc. Apparently there is a back protector built into the suit but now the overall hump also serves as a safety feature too.
We did cover this in an earlier video, Claudio. This is just one vid in a series. 😊 We did mention in the pinned first comment that research indicates you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively..... "....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls." Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I live in Colorado, and the terrain I ride is very similar to what you included in your video. I also wear a neck brace, and I agree with what you and most of the other riders have stated with regard to the loss in range of motion. Conversely speaking, even something seemingly "benign" as whiplash can pose a lifetime of problems and discomfort. Difficulties with reading a technical trail sucks, but catastrophic injuries are even worse.
IMPORTANT UPDATES! Leatt's own testing reported their neck braces vary from an alleged 17 to 46% effectiveness depending on the type of impact. See this chart. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
RESEARCH ON NECK BRACES? See our vid here: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
BEWARE OF FAKE NECK BRACES Shot Racing incorrectly calls their race collar a 'neck brace'. Research shows race collars do not work. Some dodgy retailers are claiming the EVS race collar is a 'neck brace' on their websites.
DISCLAIMER Do your own research. This video is only raising discussion points on the existing research. We make no warranties or representations regarding the content and suitability of this information for any purpose. Read our full disclaimer here: bit.ly/3JqGOp4
ENSURE CORRECT FITTING OF NECK BRACE: One research says there should be a maximum of a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively. bit.ly/3BjP8nL
OUR COMPLETE NECK BRACE SERIES: bit.ly/34PzzYX
FURTHER READING
I put the EMS report last as many say it's not a true study (see details below). I put Leatt's report second last as Dr Leatt makes braces himself, so the chances of personal bias are high.
smarter-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/The-Efficacy-of-a-Motocross-Neck-Brace-in-Reducing-Injury.pdf
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13588265.2012.700097
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617221/
www.researchgate.net/publication/304101101_Finite_Element_Simulation_of_Neck_Brace_Protective_Equipment_for_Motorcycle_Riders
leatt-cms-image.s3.amazonaws.com/2.3.4+White+Paper.pdf
www.actionsportsems.com/safetystudies
CRITICISM OF THE MUCH DEBATED EMS 'STUDY'!
This report created a lot of controversy. Some think it proves beyond doubt that neck braces work. Many of us think it's a seriously flawed report. Please read this viewer's comment from bpastorb...
"Sad to see so many MX riders believe that Great Lakes study to be factual information. Someone puts out some 'statistics', some fancy bar graphs then people believe it must be true because they don't know how to actually interpret the information. I am sorry to tell people but it's not a proper scientific study, not even close. The way in which they formed their final statistics and presented them should make anyone extremely hesitant in believing anything they have to say. I have read (and it would make sense) that the study was funded by the manufacturers of neck braces. I can't say that is true for sure but the results ended up being extremely beneficial for them. I initially believed it was a good attempt at putting more science into the topic of neck braces but it's quite the opposite and could be damaging to the sport if no further/better research is done now.
The major major problem with any information they used is that they did not have sample sizes. They did not have a way, create a way, or even try to guess a way at determining extremely vital information. People think of it as unimportant but it is extremely important to determine any sort of statistical analysis like they went ahead and did.
We know they recorded a period of time, and a certain amount of crashes. What they did not tell us is how many riders in the entire population were wearing neck braces compared to not wearing them. For example lets say you have a group of riders you watch for 10 years to see their injuries. 100 of them wear neck braces, 400 of them do not. Over 10 years, assuming neck braces were negligible to safety, did not harm people nor help them - You would expect to see 4 times as many spinal/neck injuries in the riders that did not wear neck braces, simply because there were 4 times as many of them. That would put neck braces exactly equal statistically compared with not wearing one, even though the amount of riders who got neck injuries was higher. Although 4 times as many riders were injured without the neck braces, since there were 4 times as many of them to begin with, the percentage of having a neck injury while crashing would be the same if you chose to wear one or not.
If you have the same sample group and record them over 10 years and only 1/8 of the crashes resulting in neck injuries were by the riders wearing the neck braces, then that would provide legitimate evidence that neck braces make you safer. It would mean that riders wearing a neck brace were half as likely to get a neck injury compared to riders that did not wear one.
Les say we have the same sample group but 40% of the neck injuries were riders wearing neck braces, and 60% were those not wearing braces. Someone might think 'hey, that still means neck braces make you safer right?' You could make a bar graph and pose this information as such (that is essentially what the great lakes ems team did). The truth of the statistics is that even though 60% of the neck injuries were riders not wearing one, it actually means they still had less overall neck injuries than riders that were wearing one in terms of a percentage. Meaning neck braces would cause more injuries than they prevent, even though numerically more riders were injured that weren't wearing one.
Long story short is that the information from the study means nothing without knowing how many total riders were wearing the neck braces and how many total riders were not wearing the neck braces. We all know that the majority of riders do not wear them, meaning the results were very obviously skewed towards riders getting injuries who don't wear them. That is to be expected to a degree.
The only major takeaway from that study is that wearing a neck brace almost for sure DOES cause increased risk of clavical/collarbone injuries. Since more riders ride without a brace and more collarbone injuries are from riders wearing the braces, you can almost for sure say that the braces increase your risk. Again it's impossible to say that for sure, or by how much without knowing totals or sample sizes."
"moderate decreases in injury risk" still sounds fine to me. if you cant wear it at 5 cm, go for 8 or whatever apperently you still get benefits
I'd be very interested to see any research that discusses the effectiveness with gaps bigger than 5cm. We could only find this research that said bigger than 5cm made the neck brace ineffective. ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
17% is greater than 0%, just depends on if you can adjust to wearing one and we each have different tolerances/flexibility/adaptation
I broke my neck this April on the MX track, doc says my neck brace very likely prevented permanent damage or worse. I'd say they are worth the 'discomfort'
Although the research isn't exactly conclusive I reckon I'd be wearing a neck brace for motocross or desert racing...
This is suddenly important to me, as a friend just had some number (unknown to me) of neck vertebrae fused due to a head bashing crash. I haven’t talked with him in person (he’s accepting visitors next week) to determine if a neck brace might have prevented this injury. I hope this vid gets lots of comments. Thanks for stepping into this steaming pile of controversy.
I hope your friend makes a full recovery, Tom! I looked into all the existing research a few years ago and my interest was revived after a recent spine fracture. You can see our review of all the main research findings here. th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
@@crosstrainingenduro I see all your stuff, man. Seriously, and way more than once. Why do you think I ride a DR? ;^ )
I also make it a point to conduct post incident interviews with anyone that's willing to talk... I see it as a critical element of my motorbike riding education. I know we are supposed to learn from *our* mistakes, but honestly, wouldn't you rather learn from the mistakes other people make? I'm certainly glad you are still vertical and fully mobile (I presume...?). Thanks again, don't stop.
The mighty bushpig! I'm the same, Tom. I always question others about their injuries and file it away in my 'anecdotal evidence' basket.
Mmmmmm. A warm pile to hop into.
I hope your friend recovers fully. I was recently in a bad head on with another rider 20 plus mph each. Was not my fault as rider came around the corner in my "lane" was on dirt trail. Trashed the frame on my beta the impact was so hard. Dude was on a xr600 and rider was at least 240lbs. We hit triple to triple and helmet to helmet. I didn't loose consciousness but lost vision for a few seconds " made me think of my whole life in that short period of time. For some miraculous reason I only had chest pain for a few hours. And a bad concussion. I'm incredibly amazed I didn't hurt anything else and really felt like I dodged a bullet. No neck brace only body armor, boots, knee guards. The other guy broke a wrist possibly both and had lacerations on his face. My forehead was bruised bad " regretfully had a cheap helmet " and the hard foam padding did a number on my forehead. Definitely going to upgrade to a premium helmet when I get my bike back.
Seems to me that if you're riding hills like in the video, don't wear a neck brace. On the other hand, if you're racing hare scrambles or MX in a flatter place, it might be a good idea. I wear mine all the time and have no issues but big hills are scarce where I ride.
That's pretty much my conclusion too.
I got a neck brace recently. Don't even notice it is on while riding. Played football, and Lacrosse and I wore much more restrictive pads but got used to them. Have ridden and raced motorcycles and bicycles since the mid '70s. I have good friends that had life changing brain and spine injuries and have spent decades (more than half their lives ) dealing with the results I have seen people die in motorcycle races, bicycle races, and in football games. I have two artificial hips and have broken several bones including my collar bone that a neck brace may have prevented. I'm 61 and in awesome shape and still ride and race bikes (motor and not) I love it and wear all the best protective gear I can. I might get hurt but I will have no regrets...
It's kind of like the seatbelt/helmet argument. If it's a problem when climbing steep hills. Just take it off for those hills or learn to adapt. Risk vs reward. Depends on a lot of factors. I don't have an issue with neck braces personally. They're restrictive in a sense but that's what they're designed for and it's the best solution to neck injuries which are very common when riding motorcycles.
It's very likely to help the average rider than hurt them.
Personally, I'd rather just slow down my pace since riding motorcycles is a hobby rather than a profession for me.
The neck brace can be and should be adjusted to become effective only at the very end of the range of voluntary movements.
If it’s annoying, probably the adjustment to your individual body and body armour wasn’t good enough.
Actually there is research suggesting the gap should be no more than 5cm for neck braces to be effective. And some brands such as Alpinestar even recommend reducing this to 3cm if possible.
@@crosstrainingenduro My experience has been that neck braces are very much like helmets, in that the fit is very important. However, neck braces have not caught up to helmets, to the degree of fit for all the different body types. And like a helmet, if you are not comfortable, you are not likely to wear it. I got a Leatt STX Jason Britton Neck Brace for my son and me, and as we have similar body types, this brace is very comfortable, and with the wide rear support arms, this is perfect for wearing a Camel Bak type water bladder. I did have a serious crash wearing mine. Left turn in a small town in Mexico, and I will never really know if the brace did or did not prevent serious injury. However, dam near everything else was sore as heck for a week. What did happen was the brace compressed the talk/jog button on my Sena headset when I hit the pavement, and as such, my son got a very clear audit of all the exciting sounds that followed. :)
Been wearing one off-road riding and racing for years and have never had an issue looking around and assessing the terrain. I ride every kinda terrain there is. From east coast sand pine stick farms, to Colorado mountains. I have had a few get offs that required helmet replacement but no neck injury. ATGATT
are you sure you have the right-sized neck brace? it's supposed to limit your head movement. having issues with assessing comes with the territory with a properly adjusted brace.
@@nick4506 yes it limits movement but it doesn’t do so in a way that makes it to where I can’t look around and assess the terrain or obstacles.
Do you know how big the gap is between your helmet and neck brace? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I wore the original leatt brace end it definitely restricted movement more than I was happy with. Switched to the original alpine stars and same affect for the most part. I now use the new Leatt with one of their helmets and that is much better. Absolutely I can say it limits your ability to look up but you can compensate for that somewhat by arching your back temporarily and also rolling your eyes up. Not a perfect solution but it does work to help mitigate that issue. For me the potential of minimizingOr eliminating a neck injury is worth it. I have even worn them during trials training and or competitions and have learned to adapt to the restriction. I think in my opinion I can learn to adapt to that restriction much more than a wheelchair :-) that’s how I justify it to myself
Great to hear it's possible to adapt, Tom. Do you know the size of the gap between your helmet and brace?
I wear a Leatt 5.5. Love it. Don’t even know its on when on the bike. Very comfortable. The amount I have experienced what you are explaining is negligible. There is a range of adjustment for the brace. You might want to look at that.
Actually that's a good point, Peter. Some guys adjust their brace so there's heaps of movement. But there is research saying that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
IF you have this problem (not being able to look up/down enaugh due to brace), probably your helmet is not compatible with brace.
Had same experience with old helmet+Leatt brace. Bought new Leatt helmet - suprise suprise- it works wonderfully with Leatt brace, 99% of time I even forget I wear neck brace. Dont blame brace for helmets design faults (as in video - shoei with sharp long rear edge, which looks cool, but drastically limits movement when looking up)
That could be the case in some situations. However another issue is research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively and this definitely makes it hard to look up at steep climbs:
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
Can't do it on the mountain Sled either. Going down a steep slope, into a drainage, getting ready to setup, to sidehill the opposite bank, and I'm looking at the creek bottom, instead of picking my line through the trees. Now we don't have trails backcountry riding, so reading the terrain to pick your line is crucial, losing momentum, and being stuck in a creek bottom, with 4ft of snow, Is allot harder to get out of. Momentum is everything on a sled.
I ride and race MX and off-road and I've never had any problems while wearing an Atlas brace. I'm on my second one. You're able to adjust the brace height and the back rests to change the fit. I don't notice I'm wearing it when I'm riding. But I don't try to talk other people into wearing them either. If I'm asked about it I tell them my experience and let them try it for themselves. It's your body. What gear you wear is your choice.
I’m very novice in the bike arena and am still trying to procure all the necessary bits. Lately I’ve been getting the impression that motorcycle riding gear is all about balancing out the levels of rigidity and ensuring there is no weak link in the chain. For example going for the firmest most rock solid boot that also tends to way a lot will then translate more force to the knees so then you go for full on knee braces but then the force moves up to the hips. . Etc. And by the time you’ve kitted everything out are you not then so uncomfortable and rigid that you can’t actually brace for an impact? I think to be fair in the MX world the heights and speeds involved pretty much give you no choice but to be kitted to the teeth but if you’re just exploring trails and dodging trees at a moderate speed what is enough? This video does make me think though is there not room for a D3O foam type neck brace that lets you move your head around but will resist sudden over extension? Sorry for the ramble
For me the required gear/most important is helmet,boots,googles and then gloves.
My buddy fractured his neck it a crash and a neck brace is now a requirement for him.
What it boils down to is how much risk are you willing to take?
Another note though is how fast are you going because that almost always has the biggest part in the severity
It's the never ending balance balance between comfort and protection, Rob! And it will vary from rider to rider of course. I would always suggest seeing what the research says. E.g. we investigated knee braces a few years back. Many claim that these break femurs instead which is even worse, but it's all anecdotal evidence and not backed by research. We have covered the neck brace research here: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
I don’t know, for the first month of riding with one I found it uncomfortable but now Ima t the point where I don’t ride without it, makes me feel much more safe. Worth any discomfort for having even a small chance of saving myself permanent damage in a crash
I've been riding with my Atlas for 9 years and 1) I never ride without it either, and 2) I never even notice it once on. I used to race bicycles and there were those guys who wouldn't wear a helmet when training because it was uncomfortable to them. WELL, I wore mine all the time and during a race, I was never bothered by the 'discomfort'. I think they were short sighted and whiney fools. You NEVER plan the accident.
I have an atlas neck brace and have not found this to be a problem, maybe certain brands and models restrict head movement more than others.
It seems the research says to be effective the gap must be quite small... but then it become a problem trying to look up in steep terrain.
Neck brace should not limit your natural head movement much. Point of it is preventing your heat tilting too far, and too far is when damages starts to happen to your spine. If you can not look around it is adjusted wrongly, is wrong size or wrong type. Get different one, contact your supplier or manufacturer.
the problem is your body is squishy. your helmet contacting is not where it stops in a crash. if its is set to not limit your movement normally it will overextend in a crash. the recherche says the gap should be 5cm all around and Alpinestars says 3 cm. that will totally limit your movement but that is safe.
Actually there is research indicating you should not be able to move your head too much, Janne. Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I’ve never owned a neck brace because when I tried one on it was awful. I ditched the oversized body armour too… here’s the truth - if it limits your movement or makes you too hot, you’re more likely to crash.
I broke my neck and separated both of my shoulders like 10 weeks ago in a dirt bike accident, extension teardrop fracture from a head on collision. Would a neck brace have saved my neck? Possibly, but the neck healed itself and was fine, I’m still struggling with the separated shoulders, a neck brace would’ve likely made those injuries worse.
After a full knee dislocation and several foot breaks… I like the idea of good boots and knee braces. For upper body armour, I just wear chest/spine and a helmet.
I race in the 30A class or intermediate class, and often do a lot of extreme alpine riding - most of the injuries I’ve seen wouldn’t have been stopped by a neck brace or shoulder pads.
In our group we wrestle with those decisions between comfort and protection, Jason. E.g. as summer kicks in we often won't wear body armour as we figure heat exhaustion at some point will make us more likely to crash. But of course if we break some ribs we'll be regretting that choice...
There's a few top level MX pros who ditched their neck and knee braces this past SX/MX season and they had marked improvements in their performance with the added freedom and mobility. I'm starting to subscribe to the less is more approach, and ditching the hockey getup in riding settings I'm already comfortable and familiar with. If I'm in a new area or know I'll be taking risks, then full pads, but my local single-track rides have been a huge eye opener when I go minimalist like the racer kids do.
Also the neck braces can create a leverage hinge point (think crowbar) that can create a different type of injury, so it's not like they offer absolute protection, just a specific case set. Now what would be common/likely to happen is up for debate and impossible to surmise, but I feel that this tech is at the thin edge of the wedge with questionable advantages, unlike helmets and riding boots.
The better you get the less you need to wear. I find experience keeps you off the ground. That said, they are called accidents for a reason.
@@dallas_shannon said: "they are called accidents for a reason"....well that depends...
With dirt bike body armor my Leatt NB sits lower & don't even notice it, however, resting on my rallye jacket when riding my 990 in technical terrain, it annoys me sometimes when it hooks out of my backpack shoulder straps and catches the Sena comms on my helmet. They are pricey but had mine now for 5 yrs.
One thing to keep in mind, Sean. One research paper said the gap between your helmet and neck brace should be less than 5cm for it to work.
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
If you are interested in more research, we looked into it all with this vid: th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
@@crosstrainingenduro thanks for the feedback and links. As a paramedic I have dealt with many paralyzed patients. We can't control everything that happens in an accident, just control that what we can (what we wear). Also, the value of a NB if you take how durable they are (lifespan) vs cost, it's relatively good value provided it's not a pain in the @rse to wear if you can fit it with minimal disruption to looking up & sideways. Will a seatbelt in a plane crash save your life - probably not. But, essentially all plane crash survivors had their seatbelts on. For me, the risk/cost/benefit analysis justifies wearing it.
I see it like this. Sure a cellphone case adds weight, is bulky, and adds Width..But will allow the phone to last forever...This is your body not a phone so GEAR UP!!
I see it being an issue about speed mostly. If you're doing desert race type riding, where average speeds are quicker and the terrain rough as hell, but not enduro-type, then a brace makes sense. The stuff you guys are riding I agree... limited movement is more of an issue. That said, I've never hit my neck brace on my helmet in a way that restricted my movement (perhaps I have a giraffe neck), and it doesn't bother me to wear it... far worse is my rucksack full of water and other essentials... that makes me feel encumbered (though even that has been welcomed in a high-speed off). All depends on what you're doing I guess.
At this stage I won't wear one, but if I ever took up motocross or desert riding I would. One thing to keep in mind, research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
Its not really the topic of this video but I have an extremely negative experience with neck braces. I got one of the first one that came out, the original leatte. I was doing a little more dangerous stuff(freestyle on pitbikes) so I figured Id spend the money on the added protection as I was starting to learn the backflip so landing odd was very likely. A few months later when I crashed at a mx track on a pitbike exiting a rhythm section my head hit the ground. It honestly wasnt that bad of a crash, pretty much just a 10mph toss to the side from maybe 2ft off the ground. When I got up to pick the bike up had a sharp pain in my shoulder and sure enough the brace had pinched down in a way from the side load and snapped my collar bone into 3 pcs. This is 13yrs later and I still occasionally have trouble with my nerves and muscles in that area(mainly spasms that tense up my neck and I cant move until it stops). I still ride as much as I can but I mostly dont use a brace unless it a soft frame unlike that original design. I will say they did redesign them to load other areas but I will never get one again. I currently have an EVS model that as i mentioned is softer but I dont use it much other than for mx tracks but I usually just ride trails and hare scrambles.
A friend of mine stopped using his original Leatt because the rear support went directly on to the spine and many were critical of this... I don't know if it ever caused problems but they did change the design after that. That's a shame about your collar bone, most of the time they heal up with zero issues.
@@crosstrainingenduro yea that was another concern of mine as well. I should have probably had a surgery to get it right but it wasnt horribly out of place (bones where still aligned when it firdt happened and about 4 weeks in) it was just the soft tissue that didnt show up until about 6 months later when it was already all solidified and i started using it as usual. It does seem to have gotten better the last 2-3yrs though
I wear a Leatt carbon fibre one for adventure riding and vintage race track riding. I don’t even know that I’m wearing it (apart from big rear neck twists to look backward). If the stats show that I have a percent advantage wearing it - why not?! Nothing to lose.
Being a dilettante, I always thought the ring was more to protect in case of being run over by the following rider(s) which, in enduro or cross country, seems to happen a lot because the riders behind seem to be more concerned about their momentum than about stopped or fallen riders in their path.
About a year ago we had a national high profile cross country fatality close to the start of an event and on track internationally there have been three fatalities due to being run over only this year.
Now, I don't know whether a neck brace does anything if anyone braaps 300cc of two stroke power over it, but I would rather there be something between my neck and a tyre, angles be damned.
Also, I am somewhat concerned about the limitation to natural angles the neck, if the brace would limit to 100% natural movement and then stonewall the movement, it should be good, but stonewalling probably can not happen.
I just picked up a cheap donut shaped neck brace and it is so invisible to me, I went to the store returning home from a ride and impressed young members of the (probably) opposite sex with my reflective orange KTM jacket, only for my undoing to be the non KTM badged neck donut thing. Beware, it might happen to you!
If a safety gear ends up adding on more risk than it prevents then it’s not a good piece of equipment. However, majorly reduced risk of permanent spinal damage makes all discomforts that come with it acceptable.
I wear a leatte with a 6D helmet on the race tracks and during a training session I told the instructor I could not see through the turn because I literally could not turn my head anymore. The instructor showed me how to modify my riding to allow me to make it through safely and effectively.
If you are finding the neck brace is holding you back, first see if you can make some adjustments to yourself to make it work. Also you may need to find a helmet and neck brace combo that works together.
yes, I found the same problem. Still I accepted it for 4 years for the safety. The same 4 years I've have a lot of upper back, neck and shoulder pain that would never go away. Recently I stopped wearing it to see if it was the cause of the pain.. 2 things happened, the pain started to get better right away until the point now, 6 months later it's completely gone. 2, I felt more free and fluid on the bike to the point where my riding buddies all have mentioned a noticeable improvement.
Interesting! Did you ever pinpoint what the issue was? Trying to look up and pressing back against the brace constantly?
Earlier this summer I was riding at a slower speed on a very narrow edge above the deep mud hole when I hit tree bark. The mud hole could probably accommodate a Jeep, but we are not talking about ravine or anything even considerably deep.
The angle of my entry into that hole was rather unfortunate. Almost vertically onto my head and then shoulder.
A nice and safe Alpinestar helmet had to be discarded, side of the neck is still sore after a couple of months.
I was wearing a brace and it might've helped as I collided with the ground at some angle. But I don't know for sure. One thing I know is that I would not ride without a brace even on a slower track.
Don't underestimate weight/velocity and the entry angle even at the lower speed. Unless you are a superman or a superwoman with a well developed neck. I did judo competitively and we had quite a lot of neck injuries, there is a reason why all training included serious neck muscles pumping. People are thrown from a similar height than the bike seat when wrestling. Sure, the throws off the bike are not as frequent, but there is always that chance to wreck a neck.
I did forget the entire assembly, the rooster and the brace on a couple of occasions, and although I still rode on those days, I was super skittish.
But yes, indeed, I do feel free in my movements without those. However, to me, being on a bike is the only ultimate experience of freedom.... regardless of what I mount on myself. I want to keep myself on the bike, regardless of weight of gear...... rather to be off and on a couch due to injury.
I have a friend who worked as a paramedic for a while. Heard enough stories from the trenches. While most involve on-the-road bikers, I refuse to partake in any kind of statistics.
Bought a Leatt, used it once. it now lives in the bottom of my gear bag. Maybe a bad idea but it just limits range of motion too much for me.
Our test group had big issues with that Randy. I'm sure if the terrain was flat there would be way less issues... or if they didn't need to look down in gnarly terrain to see if they could get traction or not.
Exactly my experience with my Leatt. I feel that it was a waste of money.
IF its a newer one, let me buy it.. I need to try
I ride with one now as I had an experience with a friend: riding some tight single track and we came across two trees down across the trail, trees were at neck level as they fell down from the uphill side of the trail. My friend leading and I following, friend ducks under the first no problem, and as he is coming back up I can only guess the visor blocked the second one and he gets it right in the eyes and it cleans him off the bike. I come around the corner to see him on the ground and I can’t tell if I am looking at the front or back of his helmet as the impact with the tree smashed the visor into and behind the chin bar. Fortunately he only broke one of the armour bones in his vertebrae and not the main structure of the vertebrae itself. It’s not always the hard technical stuff that’s going to get you sometimes it’s just a little thing that you don’t even have to think about. Neck brace would have prevented that injury!
Glad he survived that one, Matt! That sounds like hyperextension e.g. the head being tilted back and Leatt's own research says that's the type of impact where neck braces will be most effective (e.g. 46% effective). It's interesting to note that if you get an impact directly on the chinbar which just moves your whole head back instead of tilting then Leatt reckons they are only 17% effective. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
1:21 the lateral motion restriction looks
very dangerous to me, looks, like a hard
hit could pull your head right off your
shoulders due to the leverage. Move
your head to the side, with no neck device,
during an impact don't you feel like
your head will touch your shoulder,
it might hurt like hell and cause 'some'
injury, but not ratchet
your head clean off your body, if you
were wearing the neck device.
I got a leate brace and thor body amour 2 different manufacturers the neck brace proved to be more likely to strangle and prevent head movements, one when the body amour is wasted I will try leatt chest protector and retry the brace
Leatt brace with Leatt armor is an excellent fit, far better than my old A*
@@CommieHunter7 thanks for the feedback 🤙
I bought a cheap EVS brace several years ago when my mates started wearing their braces.
I found the same issue with that brace as mentioned in the video., namely that I was unable to look ahead and finished every ride with strained neck muscles from trying to crane my neck.
I found the brace in the wardrobe again only the other day while looking for something else...
Do you think you'd wear it if you were mainly riding on flatter terrain?
@@crosstrainingenduro
Hard to say, I don't really ride much flat terrain 🤷♂️
About the only thing we ride that is properly flat is riding on the beach with my adult sons and I wouldn't wear it there.
All the other locations we ride involve some kind of hilly terrain.
And that's why you are the mouse of danger, of course. All that hill terrain. 😎
@@crosstrainingenduro
Only a danger to myself usually 🤣
I got a Leatt brace back in ‘09 for snowmobile racing. I wore it for a few races and was glad I was using it during a very high speed wreck when I was thrown onto ice and broke my arm and got knocked out. I believe I even started to scorpion a bit.
But, fast forward a few years and it has been sitting collecting dust for many years now. It’s uncomfortable, hard to find compatible jackets that work with it, and if makes me feel claustrophobic.
I rarely see any other racer wearing one. It’s like they faded away? They are difficult to use when wearing layers of clothing, a Tek-Vest (winter chest protector) and a jacket.
I’ll keep reading through the comments. Not sure if I should try it again or see if a new, modern one fits better?
A lot of viewers have commented that you saw many pro riders using them in supercross for a few years and now they are rare again.
That seems like a fatal flaw for enduro riders. What are the pro's going to do? Sometimes they set a good example because their sponsors want to protect their investments. Thanks for posting!
For years Graham Jarvis just used stock suspension, but recently he's been using some aftermarket shock apparently... and some viewer is trying to convince me this means we should all spend money on our suspension because Graham does. 😂 If the pro riders are paid to use a product, or at the very least given it for free, of course they'll use it. It doesn't always mean we should buy it too.
I have fell numerous times with mine on. I think it does protect me. I wear armor always also. Safety first.
I think it depends on the type of riding. I saw no Neck Braces in recent Hard Enduro Competition Videos. I don´t use it on my trials bike and on enduro it depends on the type of terrain. I made exactly same experience as you described and lost a lot of fun at riding with the restricted ability to look up (depends on Helmet and Brace combination, newer helmet and old brace didn't work). Using an Orthema brace, adjusted to maximum possible freedom of movement ist OK in most terrain, with possibly already too much clearance to have maximum protection.
Best regards, Erhard
It's interesting to see they've dropped off a lot in supercross and motocross too. I don't think this necessarily proves they don't work of course. But it suggests at least some riders have found them too restrictive or uncomfortable. You can see a range of opinion from mx riders here: www.motoheadmag.com/brace-yourself-neck-protection-what-the-riders-think-of-neck-braces/
You could adjust your visor so that you have more visibility range, even cutting it a bit shorter would be better than possible nerve damage and paralysis. And NO, I've never run into your situation of riding down a giant U where I couldn't see the uphill before I started my decent in the first place.
That's an interesting idea, fredman.... trimming the visor. Part of the problem is that a properly set up neck brace will only have a 5cm gap between the brace and helmet which can be restricting. Many riders have a much bigger gap though.
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I ride with one, and I don't experience the issue you're describing. I ride a ton of technical and steep riding.
It seems like it doesn't fit you well, or doesn't integrate with your other gear well.
One of the studies we read said there should only be a 5cm gap or less for the brace to work effectively, Adam... and our test group did find this made looking up or down in steep/gnarly terrain difficult. If there is a bigger gap there's no indication of how much less effective the brace is though.
@@crosstrainingenduro I'll have to measure the gap on my brace and helmet. I totally see "my helmet hits my brace and makes interference" as a thing, I just don't think it's the 'endgame' for braces.
As mentioned, though, I'll have to check the gap on mine to see if I'm well over 5cm (it probably is...)
Is your brace, helmet and armour all the same brand?
@@dallas_shannon yes, I wear Leatt armor, a Leatt brace that fits into it, and Leatt helmet.
And a Leatt jockstrap, Mr Shannon?
Its the age old adage of "you dont need it, till you need it." There is more to making this work than initially meets the eye. I too have a leatt neck brace and did not like it at all at first. Could not raise my head enough. Was sore as hell after the first ride I needed to go back and do several adjustments on the brace and it was much better. In addition, my body position was not great. Arched back instead of flat and , need unlocked hips and , shoulders back w chest out. I even put a mirror in my garage and could see the difference of proper body position vs. what I thought was proper. Once I had good body position, The brace did not limit the needed tilt back much if at all. This however requires additional work including changes to your gym workouts. You need strong gluteus muscles to drive good body position. Does this mean you will not hurt your neck? I would say not. But, it does dramatically help to solve the problem of limited range of motion for your head if you do want to wear one.
Glad to hear you've found a way to make things work, Chris. It's always worth experimenting!
We had this initially as a problem for mountain biking when we tried to use dirtbike braces. Then they made braces for mountain biking. And that is what I use dirt bike riding so that you can extend your neck slightly more. Still gives you very good protection, without the limitations of a dirtbike brace
Do you know how big the gap between the helmet and brace is? One research paper says it should be 5cm max. One concern I have is that to look up at steep climbs easily from the base the gap may need to be quite a bit bigger...
I used a evs neck roll for years riding mx, once I switched to enduro I quickly removed it from my chest protector. Another annoying piece of gear I use is my klim nac pack. The top carry handle also touches my helmet. I want to cut it off but its so handy
What about inflatable airbag vests that don't hinder your movements when riding, but protect your torso and act as a neck brace when crashing and inflated?
On the other hand, they might pop when you experience your usual offroad tumble and then you're stuck with either a big balloon on your chest pressing against you, or let the air out and have a non-operational safety device...
I just started looking into those last week, Stefan. But I couldn't find any actual research. They look as if they'd restrict air flow badly in hot weather.
@@crosstrainingenduro can you re-inflate on the trail? Cause multiple yet minor get-offs in one ride are not uncommon as you know. Most small incidents wouldn't require deployment, but I don't think you can stop mid-air and decline their services.
@@tommeyer6033 There are various different types of airbag vests, the one I'm looking at (Helite Turtle 2) use standard CO2 canisters so you could definitely just replace them on the spot. I'm not sure if the manufacturer would recommend blowing the airbag multiple times a day, but I personally probably wouldn't be too worried.
EDIT: One thing that I probably would be worried about is damage to the airbag system itself. Most of those are engineered for road use in mind, and I'm not certain how they would fare if you fell on a branch or sharp rocks.
The limitation you describe is exactly why I stopped wearing one. I only wore it for a few rides anyway, but that was enough for me to figure out that I wasn’t going to keep it. I have the Leatt chest protector that is compatible with the neck brace that I wear on every ride though.
Ever since I started riding off-road again I've worn Leatt's Fusion combined chest protector/neck brace.
Honestly I don't think I've really "felt" the issue discussed here, perhaps I've just learned to adjust my hips & upper body to accommodate the limitation in neck movement. The only time I "feel" the limited range of movement is when I'm stopped and attempt to drink from my camelbak or stretch my neck/shoulders.
I see this similar to driving a race/track car with 2 feet when it doesn't have a clutch pedal (paddle shifters/sequential transmission). You've driven your whole life using 1 foot for the gas and brake pedal (no neck brace)... learning how to modulate brake pressure with your other foot (your other joints) is difficult and seems unnecessary, despite the potential lap time (safety). Change is difficult, no matter how big or small...
Do you know how big the gap between brace and helmet is, Matt? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm maxiumum gap for it to work effectively. I've seen quite a few photos where riders have almost triple that so obviously no problems with range of movement but I suspect the brace could be far less effective.
@@crosstrainingenduro I'm not sure what the "how to measure" standard is, but between the top of the brace at the back to the bottom of my Shoei VFX Evo helmet it is 10cm... with my head in a relatively neutral position. Lots of variables to influence the measurement there but it does restrict my movement, just not enough to annoy me.
That's a good point, Matt. What is the measuring standard? I'd just assumed it would be when you've got an even gap at the front and rear but who knows?
I started noticing my riding position was wrong due to a neck brace - my knees were right under my elbows because I couldnt tilt my head up properly to look forward. I have lowered my rear flap of the brace significantly so that I can properly look forward in full attack position - exactly when the helmet touches the brace. I would think / hope the brace would still definitely help for side and front tilts and partially for back tilts as well - as my helmet touches the rear lip of the brace still within my “normal” range of motion (close the border of that range of motion)
Hopefully the brace will still work, Mikhail. There was a study that recommended the helmet/brace gap should not be over 5cm or the brace becomes ineffective.
ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
Leatt's research showed neck braces are most effective at hypextension (e.g. head tilting back) but the effectiveness drops off rapidly for other movements.
bit.ly/3C7pdyt
@@crosstrainingenduro Well, I have relatively long neck and I gives me peace of mind wearing it. I have older version fo GPX 5.5, which was really a noticeable limitation (not like the new ones that are so thin, that they might not work at all). I know 2 people with cervical vertebrae fused due to injury riding a dirtbike - both werent wearing a brace. I dont have evidence to state that it wouldnt have happened had they been wearing it. My approach is to find sort of sweet spot to be able to ride in proper position and have sufficient range of motion to look where I need to - this is both key to ride correctly and safely - while still somewhat limiting extreme angles...the rest is in the hands of higher power.
I figure everyone will make different decisions on the comfort versus protection issue, Mikhail. I know I'd be wearing one if I did a lot of high speed high risk riding, even if the research isn't all that clear about their effectiveness. Leatt's own study was incredibly detailed but I wonder why he never had it published? Independent scrutiny would go a long way to confirming his findings.
I notice the neck brace a bit when I'm climbing hills but it's never actually bothered me. Once I started wearing it I never looked back.
Breaking your neck won’t allow you to look any direction, so... for me it’s very much worth the “discomfort “, which many times is due to bad adjustment of the neck brace
I must admit the idea of being paralysed is a disturbing one, David. I would mention though that adjusting your brace to allow too much head movement may not be a good idea. Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
@@crosstrainingenduro You argue in the vid about too much restriction of movement, then you argue here that you need less movement. You are intellectually inconsistent here so now this video sound like just click bait and doesn't move the needle on rider safety. What is your agenda if not more safety?
I started wearing them racing mx and kept going over the bars in whoops and smaller rhythms 😅. After I shattered my collarbone in big whoops I stopped wearing it and never went over the bars again.
Did you shatter your collarbone wearing a brace, which one?
@@dirtrider9268 can’t remember, I think it was evs or something like that. Was about 12 years ago now
1:42 So true, we need every possible inch of movement
to be able to see where we're going, next.
I find this problem exists with goggles as well they
cut off a good 12% or so of our peripheral vision, and
also , downward vision, there are many times while
riding that I need to look down, that visibility is
hampered. I like a full visor for that reason, it gives
me back my peripheral and down vision.
Goggles could be designed to lessen those loses,
but that takes 'thinking', burning brain cells. lol
In technical terrain, we are always looking down to pick the best line or see if we have rocks in front of the rear wheel... a neck brace would be very frustrating.
Anything worth doing is never easy but this isn’t one of them. Doesn’t hit my radar during rides.
I've worn neck braces for years never had a problem looking up or down hills
Do you know how big the gap between brace and helmet is, Greg? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm maxiumum gap for it to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I've been debating about trying one for years. I find I move my helmet to it's extreme range of motion already on a regular basis. A lot of time is spent looking down at rock gardens trying to find footing and traction too. Maybe one day if I have some extra cash floating around, I'll try one. But for now, I'll just stick with what I know works for me.
Same here David, we are forever looking down in gnarly terrain. And then up when riding down and out of a gully. If I was into desert racing or motocross I'd be considering one though...
Most people adjust the neck brace far too tightly and are then hindered in their movement. The point is to protect against an extreme end position of the cervical spine. I do not feel the NB and always wear it when we ride fast rallies and the falls are at high speed. Maybe it's a head thing. In any case, it sucks to put on and these things take up a lot of space in the bag.
Although I find a lot of the research is inconclusive I reckon I'd be wearing one if we were into high speed riding like that, Wolfgang.
I have worn a brace from day one and perhaps that’s why I don’t know any better. Can’t feel it in most rides but my elevation changes are not extreme where I ride. After a fast off and slide down the trail on my head, l walked away with only scratches convinced my Leatt saved my neck. If only it could save my ego and pride and help my slow wheelies.
We all decide what risks to take and what research to follow, I’ll personally will never ride without it.
I'm sure they will eventually make one with a neural implant that can hlpe with slow wheelies, Stephen. 😁
When it comes to motocross, I raced and trail rode fpr years and never wore one. Now with my KLR I wear one, but a lot of the reason is because I can give my neck a rest on long highway rides by taking the weight off my neck. When it comes to more technical on a motocross bike, I never like gear that restricts my movement.
I know the feeling from long days on the adventure bike... out of interest, do you know how heavy your helmet is? A few years ago I scrapped my 1.7kg helmet and bought a 1.25kg replacement and found the neck strain disappeared on long rides.
Alpinestars Sequence Neck Brace is what I use. Made of solid foam. Really comfy and light.
Only comes in Youth size, so I’ve added some high density foam to expand the neck circumference. 😅 I ride my 701 only on slow technical sections, where I need to look down a lot and this works. Far more movement than ‘normal’ neck braces, but has still saved my spine twice!!!
The problem is the research shows those are completely ineffective though, and it's why they are normally called 'neck rolls' or 'race collars' instead of braces. The relevant study is in this vid. ttps://th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html Part of the problem appears to be that once you have a lot of head movement a proper neck brace becomes ineffective e.g. another study showed the gap from helmet to brace should only be 5cm max.
@@crosstrainingenduro Definitely don't disagree with what you are saying, but definitely know that this Alpinstars roll/brace saved me on the first day - when I didn't see a large tree limb (maybe 6" diameter) at just above helmet peak height, that pushed my head back so violently the shock went through my entire spine. I was at the top of a steep descent and was too focused on looking down. Our necks can move forward a long way, but it's the back movement that is the danger. On this day, without the brace, I may have ended up in a wheelchair!
I will always wear a neck brace. My first one saved me twice from neck injury, the second instance it broke and needed to be replaced. My only issue is with looking back to see if my friends are still there. Looking up isn't an issue much and we have alot of elevation change in our trails.
Seems like it restricts your visibility in any direction which would result in more crashes especially when momentum is the key. So it's a hard no for me. Maybe more useful for the indoor guys.
the 007 opening alone is worth a thumbs up :-)
Shaken, not stirred. 😎
Neckbraces came in early 2000's if i remember correctly. Many generation ride without one still there were no large number of injuries. If one chooses to ride without a neckbrace it's fine, there is always a possibility to get injured badly or even die. A brace might save you, or it might not.
Personaly i dont use one.
One of the research papers found that 5% of injuries involved the spine for enduro riders so these injuries are less common... but of course they can be life changing too.
"Many generation ride without one still there were no large number of injuries. " Please provide your verifiable sources for these "statistics".
I don’t disagree with points made in the video, however The newer generation of Leatt neckbrace paired with a Leatt helmet allows quite a bit more range of movement over the last generation.
We haven't covered all the research in this video, but a potential problem is that research seems to show you should only have a 5cm gap maximum between the helmet and brace for them to work effectively. I have often seen riders wearing braces with over double this gap who of course say their range of movement is fine.. but is the brace effective in those cases?
Here is the relevant quote:
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
I can't drive without mine.
Great to wear if you want to adjust your helmet a little, I just tip my head so the helmet touch the brave and viola.
I got thrown off a bike in an enduro by another rider hitting my back wheel. I hit a tree top of head first like an arrow, helmet was crushed on top, (Klim Kevlar/Carbon Fiber), neck had pretty serious compression injuries in a medical knock brace for a long time. Atlas brace saved my life I’m convinced. I use the new adventure riding model now that came out last year, seeing up hills with that is way easier than the moto model. I was wearing that in the accident. I’m pro neck braces. Odd part is it was only my second time wearing one in enduro.. I was against them for years..
Nasty. I'm glad you survived that one. Leatt's research reckon braces are only about 17% effective with that sort of downward impact on the top of the helmet... you can see the chart here: bit.ly/3C7pdyt And I think that's if you have the correct fit e.g. 5cm of less between the helmet and brace. But you never know if the brace just did enough to prevent a catastrophic injury!
That's always a problem in races, you can be well within your comfort zone but then you get that wild-eyed racer taking you out.
Ummm...I never wore a neck brace for enduro because i know it limits your view when looking at huge up hills. I only use it when I ride motocross.
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I don't wear neck braces. I die (or get paralysed) like real men.
It seems the issue is the melding of neck brace and helmet to allow the necessary tilt angles.
Or don't wear one. Its your neck and if you break it off road, it won't affect MY insurance prices...or will it?
Gosh, apparently it does.
the recommended gap is 5cm or less. when properly adjust it will contact a ton.
Do you ride with many people who wear a neck brace in enduro? I do a lot of hill climbs but been thinking about doing some races this year so looking to get some more protection.
One of the guys in our group wore one for a few years but eventually stopped. It wasn't comfortable and we do a lot of steep descents and climbs on our rides.
@@crosstrainingenduro Thank you for your response.
Seems like the slow technical trails you have shown arent really the target market of most neck braces. aimed more at racers and stunters than sunday morning cruisers
Yep, this being an enduro channel that will be our focus of course, Ash.
I think it's good for guys who tear up a motorcycle track or who do desert runs at high speeds. You know...those guys catching huge air, scrubbing at stupid speeds. All packed with a bunch of other insane guys doing the same thing right next to them. I can see wearing a brace in that situation. Most of my riding is slow technical stuff now. No more bouncing across the desert at 50 mph. When I crash now, it's slow. And most of the time I see where its probably going to happen and look where I'm going to try to get off if it does go sideways. It's those times you don't see it coming are the ones that get ya. I'm more worried about landing on my shoulder or hitting a rock buried in the sand and dislocating my finger again. Damn that hurt!
It felt odd and disconcerting at first not wearing it after so many years. Took a few rides without it before I relaxed and started to enjoy it not being there. Don't miss it now. Cooler too, more air flow.
Personally I've come to a similar conclusion, Jay. In all our slow technical riding, there's only been one crash where a neck brace could have been good. I slipped on a steep descent and rammed a dirt bank with my head. But even then it was a combination of force straight down through the spine and some sideways movement... both are impacts that Leatt's own research said neck brace effectiveness drops to 17% (they are best at hyperextension according to Leatt - 47%). I had a sore neck for a day or two then all good so I was very lucky. It's always a balance between comfort and protection, and we have to hope we don't regret our decisions one day!
@@crosstrainingenduro exactly.
Wondering if a soft neck brace would have any effect at all compared with those hard ones and being bit more comfy…then again, whatever brings even slight increase on your chances to avoid serious injuries might be better than nothing, right?
Research shows the soft ones have zero effect, Harry. They probably keep the sun off your neck though. th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
Offroad riding this is true. advanced tracks and hitting big doubles or triples, I would wear one.
Each to there own I run one
You can rebuild a knee can't rebuild a neck
I don't have huge issues with not being able to see up the trail (I did when I first got it) I did check after looking at you statistics about it needing to be 50mm from your helmet and mine was about 65mm
I have an Atlas neck brace and it does not hinder my normal range of motion. If it was uncomfortable it would not wear it. Those Leatt braces do not look comfortable.
It does seem that a correctly set up neck brace should restrict motion though? Research indicates that you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
@@crosstrainingenduro the real world data seems a lot more compelling than abusing crash test dummies. A brace that is only effective at the limit of normal range of motion is surely less effective than immobilizing the head, but since I don't notice the while riding I don't see much of a reason to stop wearing one entirely.
For me it comes down to speed. Trials, technical enduro, Nope. Start moving at significant pace like rally, Adv, fast enduro, yep, chuck it on. Leaving the ground and hanging out in the air, most definitely.
It’s about projected force of impact I am likely to experience on the ride. It’s up to you to weigh up your own risk/reward compromise.
Completely agree. Some riders tend to be very black and white and either say neck braces are useless, or you are crazy not to wear one. But given the limited evidence for their effectiveness I agree each rider needs to It’s up to you to weigh up their own risk/reward compromise. E.g. I'd wear one if I was into mx or desert racing, but not for our slow technical riding. And I just hope I don't regret my choice!
A fellow rider broke his neck and died a few meters behind me, on a fairly simple stadium contraption. Not ever riding without one. Never advice anyone listen to anyone saying anything against wearing it. Pretty sure his wife and little daughter agree with me.
I think we should always look at the pros and cons of any protective gear, Kirill. And also the research. I have also seen people say "My neck brace broke my collar bone, never buy one!" If you watch our video series you will see we don't advise viewers what to do, we just present the benefits and problems.
Can't there also be a danger of "cantilevering" ... not sure if this is the correct term but because the ground (for example) is trying to bend your head back, and the brace prevents it, that your neck will get extended and your vertebrae separated?
Nasty business... internal decapitation, or more correctly atlanto-occipital dislocation. None of the research mentioned this so I don't know if it's a risk or not. It certainly could be with those foam collars or 'race collars' which pretend to be neck braces.
Anything excessive is bad, this is one of those..
Downhill Mountain biking, yes.
Normal mountain biking, no.
Desert blasting, yes.
Hard Enduro type riding, no can't stand it.
Trailriding, no.
And yes, I have crushed a vertebrate wearing a brace on the MTB, it possibly saved my neck. But I find the lack of mobility, vision and balance from the restriction is a bigger hazard for my preferred type of dirtbiking.
I suspect many are thinking the same way. Despite a lot of inconclusive research I reckon I'd be wearing one if I was into high speed desert riding.
I had the same experience, I found I couldn’t look up enough when coming down into a creek and the trail climbs up again
For sale 1 x leatt ktm neck brace 🤦♂️
It's a shame this happens for enduro riding, Mark. And when you look at the research the neck braces are most effective at preventing hyerextension of the neck... so if you allow the helmet to move up enough you are reducing its effectiveness at the one type of impact it works best against. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
Anyone in 2024 looking for a brace just get a Atlas Air or Leatt 5.5 or 6.5 and nothing else. A helmet that works well also works, I have no issues riding or looking up with my Leatt 6.5 and o'neal Srs10 helmet.
Now if I was to do extreme enduro I would ditch the brace but for MX and Traditional Enduro I use it every time without any issues.
Can we just install a spring in place of our cervical spine?
With luck it might even spring you back on to the bike...
Quite a few well regarded youtube MX coaches hate them, reckon it makes good posture and technique impossible - making a crash more likely. I think, in the end, there are reasons to wear one and reasons not to. Do what works for you, accept that others will do different. And don't gloat if you hear that someone who does different gets hurt! This is dirt biking after all. It happens.
Actually I've never asked coaches I've met about neck braces. But I can imagine there could be issues, especially with the attack position.
I`d rather have a limited range of motion while riding than a permanent spinal injury. Crashed hard and as a result have two spinal fusions in my thoracic and cervical spine. Without my neck brace it would have been a very different outcome.
Did the doctors say a neck brace could help reduce thoracic fractures, Anthony? I did my T3, T4 and T5 in 2020 and they said there's no protective gear that helps with compression fractures there... but of course it's different for C fractures.
When i ride motocross i wear the most times a neck brace when i ride enduro i dont use it
This sounds like an interesting video… 😁 We just had a session with Leatt and learned a lot about this topic!
Did Leatt say anything about the correct gap between helmet and neck brace? One research paper says a max of 5cm or they are ineffective. Apparently the manual for the Alpinestar neck brace says the same thing...
Buy leatt 5.5 chestprotecktor , and you cant even feel you wearing a neck brace👍
Got that setup..
If you think a neck brace is inconvenient on a ride try a fractured vertebrae in your neck or upper T spine and don't ride for a year or never again.
Actually that is what happened to me and partly why I'm very interested in the topic.
@@crosstrainingenduro I went over the bars on a drop off and got folded in half by my bike. No neck brace so hyperextended my neck almost a broken neck and lights out. I now use a Leatt 5.5 all the time. If helmet clearance is an issue the mountain bike version is just as good but allows more backwards movement so looking up not so much of an issue. Keep safe.
The helmet and neck brace must be fitted correctly to your body. Fitment is everything. Absolutely wear neck braces!
This argument about not being able to look up is asinine. 🙉
Why ride at all if the risks are sooooo great? We literally die everyday. If you(people in general) find it uncomfortable but you see it as a must have,chances are you'll ride less.
Agree. That being the foundational argument in this video, it seems a half-cocked conclusion to use in the title.
the recommended gap is 5cm and less. that will totally contact.
It depends what sort of terrain you ride, Derek. A properly fitted neck brace will have a 5cm gap or less between the brace and helmet for it to work effectively, according to research (and some manufacturer's manuals too). Our crew found this very restrictive in steep terrain. You'll see other viewers have too. If you ride in flat terrain or don't have a correctly fitting neck brace then your argument will be the weak one.
I run into the same problem. Why can’t a neck brace be designed to allow the normal range of motion since it’s only trying to stop the non-normal range of motion?!?! 🤷♂️
Unfortunately the research shows if the gap between the helmet and brace gets too big then the brace is ineffective. th-cam.com/video/U6UfHO7jcHk/w-d-xo.html
I just run a smaller neck brace dose not seem to get in the way
7 years have no issues. My ride tomorrow with out to compare.
If I remember correctly, even Leatt's own figures quote a measly 15%, 25% and Max 40% "efficacy" if you will, in reducing movement or impact force. In my opinion this is not a convincing result in protecting my neck. Maybe there is the placebo effect that makes people relax more when riding / falling and not getting injured. A bit like cases where people asleep or drunk during a car crash are not injured? I'm being devil's advocate here, only because I'm disappointed by the figures.
Leatt's testing claims they are 46% effective against hyperextension (e.g. head tilting back) but for forward and sideways it drops off very quickly. There's a handy chart here: content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/108/934/original/leatt_bracechart-705.jpg?14688600065
@@crosstrainingenduro yeah I read most of the white paper. Impressive research and great great work on Dr Leatt's part. There just isn't enough real work research on the efficacy, obviously due to the fact that not all accidents are recorded, and that's just the nature of the sport really. I am impressed tho that Leatt's website has an accident recording function. Maybe we should all be encouraging the use of this platform, to get a larger sample group, including accidents that don't result in spinal injuries as well. Thanks for the awesome channel keep up the good work 👏
I was really hoping that Leatt would get his white paper published in a peer reviewed journal, that would greatly increase its validity. I'm not saying he's misrepresented his info of course, but good science means getting verification from other specialists. He does seem to have been impartial though, with his own research showing his braces vary from 17 to 46% effectiveness depending on the type of impact. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
@@crosstrainingenduro 👍 agreed
I don't know man... I've watched the introduction of them into F1 over the years as well as the hump on the leathers of GP racing. Neither of those disciplines have any shortage of engineers, researchers, risk management and desire to win with their high paid drivers/riders.
Im not educated enough to argue or debate.
I figure none of us know enough to really argue the point, Dave. The furthest we've gone is our vid investigating all the research to date and then hopefully that will help riders make up their minds.
@@crosstrainingenduro I've also been a paramedic, Medevac Paramedic, medivac Nurse and currently Trauma/Covid ICU nurse for 20yrs.
Seen hundreds of paralyzed folks as a result of various mechanism of injury.
Only one was paralyzed riding a dirt bike, motocross specifically. And no brace.
Crazy eh'
I still don't know what any of that means though.... Braces work so no visit to ICU or dirtbike injuries don't produce significant spinal injuries for those not wearing a brace.
Pretty sure the MX GP hump is for aerodynamics...🤔
Interesting, I've just had a bit of a google... it mainly had an aerodynamic purpose but then they started to use it of storing electronics, gadgets, water etc. Apparently there is a back protector built into the suit but now the overall hump also serves as a safety feature too.
Yes you miss the most important, right feat the neck brace! 😉
We did cover this in an earlier video, Claudio. This is just one vid in a series. 😊 We did mention in the pinned first comment that research indicates you should only have a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively.....
"....an insignificant reduction in injury risk. The ineffectiveness of the neck brace was attributed to the standoff distance between the brace and the helmet (~50mm) being greater than the amount of neck compression at the time of injury. A modified brace was implemented into the rider model to reduce this standoff and initiate brace-to-helmet interaction prior to substantial neck loading. The modified neck brace showed moderate decreases in injury risk in most impact cases relative to the no brace controls."
Read more here: ibrc.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Abstract_2016_Sathyanarayan.pdf
00:38
Why is he trying to put a toilet seat
on his head?
Edit, lol, 3 seconds later, I see everyone
has the same idea.
My brother does lots of weird shit we'll never understand lol
@@crosstrainingenduro haha 👍
Choose life !
I got my GoPro caught in my front brake cable top loop in a tight turn. Same thing?
😂
I live in Colorado, and the terrain I ride is very similar to what you included in your video. I also wear a neck brace, and I agree with what you and most of the other riders have stated with regard to the loss in range of motion. Conversely speaking, even something seemingly "benign" as whiplash can pose a lifetime of problems and discomfort. Difficulties with reading a technical trail sucks, but catastrophic injuries are even worse.
Tough decisions, Joe. Research shows head and neck injuries are only 2% of enduro racing injuries. But of course they can potentially be devastating.