oh my god this is awesome. it's way easier to get the timing right going straight instead of a quarter circle. plus extra hitbox, all for a slightly longer interval.
The coolest thing about Melee and most fighting games top-level competition, is that it's like the best speed runners in the world are competing head to head. The goal isn't just to see who gets to the end of the game faster, the goal is who can beat the crap out of the other person and not allow them to do anything.
Sorry if you said this at some point but I couldn't find it: is the reason behind all of this because there's a lockout on regrabbing the ledge for a number of frames?
Yeah. When you grab the ledge there are 7 frames where you can’t act out of the ledge. A lot of the time when folks screw up ledge dashes it’s because they input something in those 7 frames and their input got “eaten”
@@Ixis04 no I'm not talking about acting after grabbing ledge, I'm talking about regrabbing it. I can't understand how any of this makes sense otherwise (releasing frame 1 being so important, still staying invincible despite taking longer to start the fire stall)
I had the same question. According to www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall#Explanation there is a disable regrab timer that has the same length as intangibility (29 frames). I tried it myself in Uncle Punch: It seems that Falco can't grab the ledge during the first 15 frames of his Up-B. So the latest time to start Up-B is 16 frames before Intangibility expires. That leaves you 13 frames to do whatever you want (as long as you end up close enough to the ledge at the end). If you start your Up-B earlier Falco spends more frames in the Up-B animation and grabs ledge as soon as the regrab timer (and the intangibility) runs out.
@@dahoppa069 So if you let go of the ledge a frame late, you only get 28 frames of intangibility, while still having to wait 29 frames to regrab the ledge, making you vulnerable for one frame. Is that correct?
Hey Ginger, love your channel it’s so informative. It would be great to get a similar video on what the frame perfect ledge dash options look like for falco. Seems like I can only ever get 9 galint with the perfect cliffwait, wondering where I’m losing frames.
coming back to this now and still can't invincible stall with Falco but I picked up shiek and practiced shino stalling for like 10 minutes and I can do it most of the time it's so much easier
That curling method is what I did it’s how I figure out how to do it. But I didn’t think that was the right way because I get hit out of it. So I looked it up to see how to actually do it. Turns out it’s a way to do it I’m just not fast enough idk I don’t do it often in game because I’ll side be off the stage sometimes.
Wow this video could not have come at a better time for me, I've been grinding stalls and ledgedashes heavily this last week and after years of doing shine up I just changed the way I stall from to the curl method because of what mew2king used to say lmao thank god I didn't waste all that time
With Falco, if you are a few frames late dropping from ledge, will you not be totally invincible for the stall even if you double quicker than you did in the video?
@@SsbmGinger so this confuses me a bit. Didn't you say earlier that you have like a 5 or so frame window that you can drop for before needing to up b again? Maybe some numbers will help clear my confusion. How many frames are you locked out of regrabbing the ledge for after dropping from the ledge? And how many frames of intangibility do you have after you let go of the ledge (disregarding the 7 frames you are stuck on the ledge for)?
Would falcos shine not have similar potential to help the opponent revover? I know its just one frame but since there is no point to do it with falco, why not drop the shine.
There was a substantial point in the video here where he addresses that concern. Ginger said that Falco "is REQUIRED to double jump in order to grab the ledge" and maintain intangibility. He goes on to demonstrate this right after; showing that if you do not shine and instead immediately go into up - b, he can't grab the ledge. See here @ 5:35 in the video. Further explaining this, there are a set amount of startup animation frames on Falco's up-b that must finish before he can grab ledge. I don't know how many frames exactly, but that small gameplay mechanic is why this is one of the hardest things to do consistently as a player. You line up like 3 to 5 different frame timings and animations in order to get as many intangible frames as possible from the ledge. That my friend, is the very reason that Ginger chooses to drop, immediately shine, and then initiate up-b; all within the 7 frames needed to maintain intangibility. You HAVE to jump out of shine when you're in the air. That's way easier IMO than the curling technique he talked about. the stick control that requires is immense. What I believe you're thinking of is the situation in where there is an opponent off-stage, trying to recover, and you are the one on the ledge attempting to ledge hog. Remember, you maintain full invulnerability here if executed correctly. So, unless they are a god at catching the 3 or do frames you aren't on the ledge, that would rarely happen. In the event you just want to fully avoid shining the opponent up into the stage for them to potentially tech it/counter play, I'd recommend going for roll on to stage or normal getup. Roll is a very long animation with Falco and he maintains the ledge status for a bit longer than you'd might expect.
@@dahoppa069 you can't grab ledge that fast outside of double jump. Most, if not all, double jumps have a set amount of start up frames/delay that you can't grab ledge out of, unless interrupted by another input. If you could immediately regrab ledge off a simple input such as what you stated, (drop from the ledge, immediately execute a jump, and regrab ledge) we wouldn't have the need to ledge refresh to maintain intangibility. There's a few more nuances to it than how I explained, but that's the basic idea. If we could just double jump and immediately regrab ledge without having to space it, it would be pointless to do anything else outside of that, and the game would be a camp fest.
Honestly, if that mechanism wasn't a part of the game, ledge dashing wouldn't be possible. When you ledge dash, you use the frames of your double jump to ride the edge/wall, in order to get to the optimal spot to then execute an air dodge into stage.
How is it degenerate? In melee there's plenty of counterplay. From the video you can see it's a frame perfect input that if you mess up and get hit out of, you're off stage as a space animal without a double jump.
@@Zxv975 Ledgestall shouldn't be allowed just because it has to be frame perfect or close to it, it should be removed because an infinite invulnerable technique has no place in a fighting game. That's why it's degenerate. Peach's and Puff's stalls were banned. Do you think it was just because it was an easy tech? Or because stalling is lame?
@@equinox3861 maybe if you’re doing it for like a full minute, that should be banned. But ledgestalling has plenty of practical application during regular play
@@alanz4819 I think it's best if you just lose invulnerability after the fifth ledge grab or something. If you grab ledge 5 times you're just stalling.
@@equinox3861 lol. Those examples are extremely easy compared to a frame perfect, high risk ledge stall. There's no comparison there. If we're talking about the TAS world of perfect inputs, then Fox is literally unbeatable because every single hit on shield confirms into multishines until your shield is broken or you get shield poked and waveshined to death. Go watch Smashbot VS Axe. When you're ready to come back to the real world though, I'll be happy to have a proper discussion.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Damn, imagine telling M2K he's wrong about frame data and then actually proving it. This guy must have a Ganon size package.
M2k doesn't play falco
@@bicharddershowitz9336 that ain't falco
@@bicharddershowitz9336 he still knows the frame data for everything lol
He has an olimar sized package I promise you
lmao
There’s never a video from Ginger that I don’t learn something from. Always love them!
So are you telling me the way I've been doing it all along can be made fully intangible? Nice.
oh my god this is awesome. it's way easier to get the timing right going straight instead of a quarter circle. plus extra hitbox, all for a slightly longer interval.
The coolest thing about Melee and most fighting games top-level competition, is that it's like the best speed runners in the world are competing head to head.
The goal isn't just to see who gets to the end of the game faster, the goal is who can beat the crap out of the other person and not allow them to do anything.
Sorry if you said this at some point but I couldn't find it: is the reason behind all of this because there's a lockout on regrabbing the ledge for a number of frames?
Yeah. When you grab the ledge there are 7 frames where you can’t act out of the ledge. A lot of the time when folks screw up ledge dashes it’s because they input something in those 7 frames and their input got “eaten”
@@Ixis04 no I'm not talking about acting after grabbing ledge, I'm talking about regrabbing it. I can't understand how any of this makes sense otherwise (releasing frame 1 being so important, still staying invincible despite taking longer to start the fire stall)
I was wondering the same thing!
I had the same question. According to
www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall#Explanation
there is a disable regrab timer that has the same length as intangibility (29 frames).
I tried it myself in Uncle Punch:
It seems that Falco can't grab the ledge during the first 15 frames of his Up-B.
So the latest time to start Up-B is 16 frames before Intangibility expires.
That leaves you 13 frames to do whatever you want (as long as you end up close enough to the ledge at the end).
If you start your Up-B earlier Falco spends more frames in the Up-B animation and grabs ledge as soon as the regrab timer (and the intangibility) runs out.
@@dahoppa069 So if you let go of the ledge a frame late, you only get 28 frames of intangibility, while still having to wait 29 frames to regrab the ledge, making you vulnerable for one frame. Is that correct?
Hey Ginger, love your channel it’s so informative. It would be great to get a similar video on what the frame perfect ledge dash options look like for falco. Seems like I can only ever get 9 galint with the perfect cliffwait, wondering where I’m losing frames.
could be your waveland angle onto the stage
coming back to this now and still can't invincible stall with Falco but I picked up shiek and practiced shino stalling for like 10 minutes and I can do it most of the time it's so much easier
This is gonna be so much better for my hands. Thanks dude!
That curling method is what I did it’s how I figure out how to do it. But I didn’t think that was the right way because I get hit out of it. So I looked it up to see how to actually do it. Turns out it’s a way to do it I’m just not fast enough idk I don’t do it often in game because I’ll side be off the stage sometimes.
Wow this video could not have come at a better time for me, I've been grinding stalls and ledgedashes heavily this last week and after years of doing shine up I just changed the way I stall from to the curl method because of what mew2king used to say lmao thank god I didn't waste all that time
super informative, thanks for a new thing to practice!
Can you do a ledgedash & invincible ledgedash tutorial as well
Great content as always, thank you!
Would be really cool if you show how you are actually do this on the controller. Like what buttons you press and how you press them
With Falco, if you are a few frames late dropping from ledge, will you not be totally invincible for the stall even if you double quicker than you did in the video?
If you don't drop from ledge frame perfectly it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a totally invincible stall
@@SsbmGinger so this confuses me a bit. Didn't you say earlier that you have like a 5 or so frame window that you can drop for before needing to up b again?
Maybe some numbers will help clear my confusion. How many frames are you locked out of regrabbing the ledge for after dropping from the ledge? And how many frames of intangibility do you have after you let go of the ledge (disregarding the 7 frames you are stuck on the ledge for)?
@@Zxv975 basically, the drop is what matters not the up b. You start losing invincible frames the longer you're on the ledge
How does he go frame by frame? what is he using and how is it done?
Sorry this is late, but its a 20XX mod in training
Doesn't having to wait 4 frames before jumping out of shine only applied to grounded shines?
nope!
Good vids keep it up
Would falcos shine not have similar potential to help the opponent revover? I know its just one frame but since there is no point to do it with falco, why not drop the shine.
There was a substantial point in the video here where he addresses that concern.
Ginger said that Falco "is REQUIRED to double jump in order to grab the ledge" and maintain intangibility.
He goes on to demonstrate this right after; showing that if you do not shine and instead immediately go into up - b, he can't grab the ledge. See here @ 5:35 in the video.
Further explaining this, there are a set amount of startup animation frames on Falco's up-b that must finish before he can grab ledge. I don't know how many frames exactly, but that small gameplay mechanic is why this is one of the hardest things to do consistently as a player. You line up like 3 to 5 different frame timings and animations in order to get as many intangible frames as possible from the ledge.
That my friend, is the very reason that Ginger chooses to drop, immediately shine, and then initiate up-b; all within the 7 frames needed to maintain intangibility. You HAVE to jump out of shine when you're in the air. That's way easier IMO than the curling technique he talked about. the stick control that requires is immense.
What I believe you're thinking of is the situation in where there is an opponent off-stage, trying to recover, and you are the one on the ledge attempting to ledge hog. Remember, you maintain full invulnerability here if executed correctly. So, unless they are a god at catching the 3 or do frames you aren't on the ledge, that would rarely happen.
In the event you just want to fully avoid shining the opponent up into the stage for them to potentially tech it/counter play, I'd recommend going for roll on to stage or normal getup. Roll is a very long animation with Falco and he maintains the ledge status for a bit longer than you'd might expect.
@@UonlySUMMONonce Sure but why not just double jump without shining. Double jump does not hit your opponent and sends him back up on stage.
@@dahoppa069 you can't grab ledge that fast outside of double jump.
Most, if not all, double jumps have a set amount of start up frames/delay that you can't grab ledge out of, unless interrupted by another input.
If you could immediately regrab ledge off a simple input such as what you stated, (drop from the ledge, immediately execute a jump, and regrab ledge) we wouldn't have the need to ledge refresh to maintain intangibility.
There's a few more nuances to it than how I explained, but that's the basic idea. If we could just double jump and immediately regrab ledge without having to space it, it would be pointless to do anything else outside of that, and the game would be a camp fest.
Honestly, if that mechanism wasn't a part of the game, ledge dashing wouldn't be possible.
When you ledge dash, you use the frames of your double jump to ride the edge/wall, in order to get to the optimal spot to then execute an air dodge into stage.
Huh, neat!
watching this as a low level player who can barely even waveshine
Holy shit, you knew something about melee m2k didn’t???
9 minutes ago?
Ledge stalling should be removed from the game. Even if it's hard and takes skill, it's degenerate. But nice video.
How is it degenerate? In melee there's plenty of counterplay. From the video you can see it's a frame perfect input that if you mess up and get hit out of, you're off stage as a space animal without a double jump.
@@Zxv975 Ledgestall shouldn't be allowed just because it has to be frame perfect or close to it, it should be removed because an infinite invulnerable technique has no place in a fighting game. That's why it's degenerate. Peach's and Puff's stalls were banned. Do you think it was just because it was an easy tech? Or because stalling is lame?
@@equinox3861 maybe if you’re doing it for like a full minute, that should be banned. But ledgestalling has plenty of practical application during regular play
@@alanz4819 I think it's best if you just lose invulnerability after the fifth ledge grab or something. If you grab ledge 5 times you're just stalling.
@@equinox3861 lol. Those examples are extremely easy compared to a frame perfect, high risk ledge stall. There's no comparison there. If we're talking about the TAS world of perfect inputs, then Fox is literally unbeatable because every single hit on shield confirms into multishines until your shield is broken or you get shield poked and waveshined to death. Go watch Smashbot VS Axe. When you're ready to come back to the real world though, I'll be happy to have a proper discussion.