A bit of trivia: After this season, Lalla Ward did a Shakespeare with an actor called Patrick Stewart. He made a comment to her "Why are you doing a stupid science fiction show instead of serious work?"
I'm jumping in quick around 14:00, so sorry if Richard corrects himself later, but 'navvy' is not a perjorative term for a servant, nor did it come from the British Raj. It is short for 'navigator' ('navigational engineer' in the US) and refer to highly skilled manual labourers, first for those building canals in the 1700s and then for other major projects such as the railway system. Their knowledge of construction and building, such as the make up of cement and concrete, is what the Doctor is refering to here.
The earliest recorded use of the term "navvy" in the UK was in the 1830s, and referred not so much to a skilled engineer as to a heavy labourer who dug out roads, drains and canals. It would become somewhat derogatory later, often embodied in the stereotype of the itinterant "Irish navvy" who'd knock on your door and offer to tarmac your drive for fifty quid.
If Alex is able to cast his memory back to when he watched The Unquiet Dead he might recall that Charles Dickens commented on the ninth Doctor's outfit, stating that he looked more like a navvy than a doctor. Which makes sense, because to a Victorian gentleman, the ninth Doctor's leather jacket and jeans look like clothes that a labourer who has to work outside, needs more durable outfits, and doesn't have spare cash for fancy apparel, might wear. What the ninth Doctor does not resemble is anyone from India or a servant.
Trivia corner: Lalla Ward once played Ophelia to Derek "Professor Yana" Jacobi's Hamlet. The Honourable Sarah Ward (her full name and title) is the daughter of Viscount Bangor, and her great-grandmother was the first person known to have been killed in a motor accident, when she fell under the wheels of a steam-powered car.
14:12 "Navvy" is a slang term, not really derogatory, for labourers involved in building canals and later railways and roads. The canals were originally known as 'navigations' hence 'navvies' from a shortening of 'navigator'. The term is still in use here in the UK and, as I mentioned earlier, I've never heard it used in a derogatory sense. While I'm sure there would have been navvies in British India it wasn't particularly applied to the local population but to those working in the roles associated with the term--labourers constructing the railway network in particular.
Just a little correction guys, the abandoned 6 parter to end this season was not totally animated, they just animated the bits they didn't get to film. So the finished product is a mix of real life and animation. As you know they don't film it an episode at a time, so each episode has real life and animation mixed. There were 6 sets plus location filming, 3 sets were built and filmed with, the location work was all done, but 3 sets were never built and those scenes are animated.
While not the greatest story I have a bit of a soft spot for it. It was the first story I remember watching featuring Davros and the Daleks. Whilst I was aware of the Daleks (probably from cultural osmosis and the Peter Cushing films) I could only vaguely remember watching them on television before. As I was only eight, I was a bit confused to who Davros was but the narrative makes it pretty clear. The BBC did repeat Genesis a few years later. Some of the Dalek props are really showing their age by now. I'm pretty sure their eye-stalks were more or less stuck in position by this stage, probably because they've been painted over so often. Considering that apart from their voices they can't really emote much, this seems to limit them even more.
This was director Ken Grieve's only Doctor Who (he had a strong career with all film shows). He shared a flat with Douglas Adams. It was the first Doctor Who story to use the then relatively new "Steadicam" camera. They had massive budget issues on this story (the Dalek props were renovated prior to production but they got used elsewhere for charity events and the like that they were in a bad state again come filming). More music was recorded for the story but Grieve chose not to use.
"Oh Look Rocks!!!" 😉 Terry wrote the script -Douglas Adams changed it to suit the current mood of the actors. The location, was used before in The Underwater Menace. It has been used again recently in Star Wars: Andor (mining caves)
Good news! This is the last story Terry Nation wrote for Doctor Who! If that doesn't make you feel better about this story, nothing will. 😂 They knew that Mary Tamm wanted to leave at the end of the previous season, but Producer Graham Williams was positive he could get her to change her mind, by the time he finally accepted that he couldn't, it was kinda too late to write her out. Tamm herself suggested Lalla Ward as a replacement companion, largely because she and Tom Baker got along so well (they would eventually start dating and even got married, though, sadly, their marriage was short lived.) I don't know if it was ever a consideration to have Tamm come back to film a regeneration into Lalla Ward, but since Mary Tamm was very, very pregnant at the time this story was shot, it wouldn't really have been feasible anyway. The location filming for this story was done at Winspit Quarry in Dorset, where there were the shells of three derelict buildings. There is the germ of a good idea here, unfortunately undermined by the fact that the Movellans are so easily defeated by pulling their battery out, and by the plodding pace. I'll point out that Alex has seen the Movellans before, as they make a brief cameo in NuWho, in the Peter Capaldi episode called The Pilot. As a final point of interest, the actor who plays Tyssan, Tim Barlow, was partially deaf, but could lip read and ran a school for deaf actors.
According to JNT Mary Tamm (Romana I) was pregnant and only had the intention to do one season but she later denied this and was unaware of it and said she would had gladly had done the regeneration scene had she been asked to do so.
Mary Tamm did say she would have returned for a regeneration but nobody asked her. What a wasted opportunity for a dramatic regeneration. We could have had Romana shot by a Dalek and then regenerated into Lalla Ward. I quite like the eerie silence of part one. It’s not the best Dalek story this but it’s a lot of fun. Pity the Daleks look so cheap and battered. It’s odd that Davros refers to the Movellans as another race of robots! He should know that Daleks aren’t robots but living organic creatures in machines. I agree with you about Romana being out of character here. I’d give it a 7/10.
"Why do they keep bringing him back?" As I understand it, Terry Nation had first refusal on any Dalek story since he owned the rights to them. As the Daleks were the most popular enemy the producers wanted to use them so... To be honest, the stories didn't really strike we viewers as particularly poor at the time, perhaps because watched them over an extended period rather than watching the episodes end to end.
'Destiny Of The Daleks' notes : Episode One: Viewing figures = 13.0 million. Chart position = 28. Episode Two: Viewing figures = 12.7 million. Chart position = 39. Episode Three: Viewing figures = 13.8 million. Chart position = 28. Episode Four: Viewing figures = 14.4 million. Chart position = 27. Transmission dates : 1, 8, 15, 22 September 1979 Studio sessions : July 1979. Studios : TC3 & TC1. Although Douglas Adams had hoped to introduce new writers to the series, the production-line nature of the 'Doctor Who' schedule, plus the increasing need to attend to the increasing success of 'The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy' meant that in the end Season 17 would rely on familiar names. Terry Nation was not keen on including K9 and original Davros actor Michael Wisher was not available, so David Gooderson took over the part in a mask not designed for him. Location filming took place at Winspit Quarry and Binnegar Heath, both in Dorset. (I've done chemical tests on sand from Binnegar Heath when working in analytical chemistry, but could find no trace of exploded Daleks - Andrew) Money for Dalek props was tight, but a new Steadicam was used for the first time on the show. Before shooting commenced on 'Destiny', director Ken Grieve joined Douglas Adams on a trip to Paris (where the production team for 'City Of Death' were filming) and they enjoyed a massive pub crawl before Ken had to return to the UK to watch 'Genesis Of The Daleks'. See th-cam.com/video/gv-SwsX1HBA/w-d-xo.html As the entire ITV network was shut down due to industrial action, the viewers at home had only the two BBC channels available, allowing this story to (very briefly!) claim the record for the episode with the highest viewing figures in 'Doctor Who's history. But 'City Of Death' would top even this...! 'Destiny Of The Daleks' was the third story of Season 17 to be recorded, but the first to be broadcast.
Not the entire ITV network. Channel Television on the Channel Islands still kept transmitting as it was exempt from strike action due to its financially precarious position.
@@stickytapenrust6869 Good point! Thank you. Gently kicking ourselves that we didn't check! 🙂 (Ironically Martin Holmes did us an article on 'Round The Archives' a few years ago about the '79 strike and mentioned that very point, so I should have remembered, having edited that piece myself! Whoops!)
Actually, yes we did remember Genesis of the Daleks! Also, by this time, Doctor Who Weekly was being published and had already had features about Davros and the Daleks and Skaro.
I remembered it! I first saw Genesis here in America age 7 in 1978. I must’ve seen it a few times in repeats by the time Destiny was shown in my area sometime around 1982-83.
@@DeanStrickson That's the thing with overseas sales. There were always significant delays between initial viewing in the home country and that of the country exported to. These days much faster, even instantaneous, as with the 50th Anniversary Special. I used to buy Future and Starlog from a bookshop in Ipswich and think that it was great that Doctor Who was getting noticed in the States. We had Star Trek TOS - as it is known now - on the BBC after the original show had been cancelled!
@@DeanStrickson Just checked. We got Star Trek shown first at eight days before the moon landing. First shown July 12th 1969. I thought it was around that date.
The rocky quarry was last seen in 2nd Doctor story The Underwater Menace - and was very recently seen in Star Wars spin-off Andor - it's Winspit Quarry in Dorset (on the coast). The sandy quarry hadn't featured in the show before, it was Binnegar Heath Sand Pit at Wareham, Dorset.
Nation was given first refusal on writing Daleks script - he chose not to do so again - he was working in America by this point. The script editor, Eric Saward, for the next two Dalek stories would write them as it made it easier to deal with Nation's representatives. By giving the script to a guest writer, things got extra complicated - as Andrew Cartmel, script editor on Remembrance of the Daleks, found out when having to be the go between with the writer and Nation's agent (who he blames his first ulcer on). For Destiny of the Daleks, Douglas Adams didn't really do a good enough job rewriting - it's an awkward mesh of the writers two styles.
6:00 The first 6 seasons were ca 40 eps per season rather than roughly 26 since. The mid point in terms of eps was during the Pertwee era. 7:30 Not quite, it's a mix of live action and animation. 10:30 Terry Nation script but Douglas Adams script editing. 14:10 Not hear that one Richard! Navvy to me is slang for a labourer who built canals, railways, etc 30:35 Yeah, the next story is much better for Romana. 39:25 Tom definitely stayed too long. Pertwee staying for 5 of ca 26 ep seasons was probably about right. It seems a lot of actors follow Troughton who recommended only doing 3 seasons but of course in his era those seasons were much longer.
Troughton annoys me that he advised Davison to only do 3, and while Davison was making his third and finding the stories good, after he had announced quitting, he wished too late he had stayed for a fourth.
Director Ken Grieve claimed that the script was in fact "98% re-written by" script editor Douglas Adams. These remarks seem consistent with comments by Adams quoted in Don't Panic by Neil Gaiman (published within the lives of both Adams and Nation). Adams states therein that he had discovered that other writers on Doctor Who considered it the role of the script editor to get the scripts into the correct broadcast order. Terry Nation was unhappy with Douglas Adams's rewrites, particularly the scene where the Doctor taunts the Dalek by suggesting it climb after him, as he believed that pointing out the Daleks' apparent design flaws made them less menacing, and threatened their popularity with the viewing public. So yeah, I blame Adams for the script here as Nation was killing with his last 2 Who stories & Blake. I mean he’s the creator of the Daleks, he knows that the Daleks aren’t robots!
I understand the reason for Romana’s regeneration was primarily because the original actress got pregnant and Tom and Lalla just got on well. REALLY well. Also you might recognise the location shooting for Skaro as the same spot used recently on Disney’s latest Star Wars series Andor: Winspit Quarry. Oh and K9 was written out for two reasons, one he was crap on location (they had endless issues on The Stones Of Blood) and Terry hated the idea of writing for him, although it’s generally accepted that Terry basically threw a basic story outline based on previous scripts at Douglas then left for America to write for their shows, so Douglas wrote the rest.
No, it wasn't because Mary Tamm was pregnant - that's a misconception. She was willing to do a regeneration scene but was never asked. The reason she left was because she felt as though Romana had devolved into the "damsel in distress" type that she wanted to avoid.
@@Lumibear.No, you’re confusing that with Caroline John, who was pregnant at the time she wasn’t asked back because the writers felt her character made the show too cerebral for the audience (even though viewing figures through S7 were consistently high for Who compared to S6).
@@stickytapenrust6869 ooh this gets complicated, I’d guess it’s that issue that stuff that occurred pre-internet is often kept alive by Chinese whispers and repeated chat show stories until someone types it in online, but by then we have multiple versions depending upon who you ask.
it's amazing that series 17 is considered one of the worst in classic doctor who but next week episode city of death is considered a top 10 all time classic
Mary Tamm didn't continue in the role of Romana because she felt that the character had reverted to a traditional assistant role and could not be developed further. The reason given to the public at the time was that she was going to have a child. Also the reason K9 has laryngitis because John Leeson decided not to return to the role; he was replaced by David Brierly. (Imho Leeson is THE voice of K9, no respect intended to Brierly.) As for your decision to wait until the next episode to make a final decision on your opinion of Lalla Ward's take on Romana, thank you for that. I hope you enjoy "City of Death".
seems terry nation also forgot when writing this script daleks aren't robots they never have been he makes them robots in this story then the next dalek story it's immediately retconned
Michael Wisher the OG Davros couldn’t return so David Gooderson replaced him, but the Davros mask (which was originally fitted for Wisher) was five years old and in poor condition.
it was only the daleks that wanted to find dravos because they knew they are organic creatures capable of random thought. so they seek to find therir creater - they are orginic creatures stuck in a logic machine
This season had a different voice actor playing K-9, maybe thats why the doctor says he has laryngitis to explain why his voice is different. The movellans made a cameo re appearance in modern who, series 10 episode 1 ‘the pilot’ they were once again fighting the daleks
Aw, people are too hard on Season 17. I think it’s pretty great and I’m pretty sure you two are going to enjoy the rest of the stories. Yes, that one. And that one. Yeah yeah, even THAT one!
Flaggerify: You may have a point… but the basic premise - no matter who ended up completing the script - was still just a re-hash. Having seen Christopher Eccleston’s revival episode, it’s clear (to me, anyway) that a new perspective was long overdue. ~Dad
Destiny was Terry Nation's last Dalek story. He created Blake 's 7 and wrote a lot of it in its early days and it was good. Its a cult classic. Then he moved to LA. One of his last credit is Season 1 of the original MacGyver where he wrote 2, but mostly a producer. His last credit was 1989. He died in LA in 1997.
I wonder if the lads have seen Blakes 7, hope Terry Nation creating it doesn't put them off, it is regarded as a classic. Terry wrote series 1 of B7, but then others mainly Chris Boucher took the reins.
There! I was just starting to watch the 'Doctors of Star Trek' at the 2019 con! Oh well. I'll watch that later. Now, of course, this shows the 'controversial regeneration of Romana. Well, couple that with River's "Shut up, Dad! I'm focussing on a dress size!" I just get the feeling that the females take a bit longer to get ready. Just as the Doctor can regrow a hand - as long as it is within a certain time span of the actual regeneration, a Time Lady can 'try on' a few outfits. Since Romana is a mere 120-130 years old, she can play with it a bit and maybe the control drops of later when she reaches 300-400. Anyway, welcome to The Honourable Sarah Jill Ward - Lalla - daughter of Edward Henry Harold Ward, 7th Viscount Bangor - whose grandmother was the scientific illustrator Mary Ward, who died in the world's first motoring accident. - and Agnes Elizabeth Hamilton, third daughter of Dacre Hamilton, of Cornacassa, County Monaghan.
I recall seeing a documentary on Doctor Who involving Tom Baker and the other companion actors in his era where they are all on stage or most of them at least with microphones answering audience questions with individual actor interviews in between apparently Mary Tamm who played Romana 1 left because she felt as if her characters her take on Romana could not develop any further so she left the act and had Lalla ward replace her to give a fresher different personality to the character to avoid the character being to samey found the documentary randomly on TH-cam quite obscure thing
This is the first time in 4 1/2 years, 25 stories, 5 seasons! that from a story's first episode you know it has regular alien creatures in it ! Last time was Revenge of the Cybermen, the story after Genesis. Tom's first season was packed with a spree of 3 classic aliens in a row ! It was followed by an awful run of 17 stories over 3 years when no regular alien creatures were used at all ! thanks to Hinchcliffe wanting to do his own thing without them. There was just one appearance by a regular enemy in that time, the Master in Deadly Assassin, but Time Lords don't count as creatures. Then, Invasion of Time had the Sontarans, but only from ep 4. Until then it seemed like the eighteenth story without creatures. Then no more regulars during the Key To Time season. So this is still only the second regular creatures return since that too long run without them, and it's the first where it's there for the whole story from start. First time from 26-4-75 to 1-9-79
Welcome to Terry Nation's final Doctor Who script! Supposedly he was not thrilled by all the jokes that Script Editor Douglas Adams added. But the reason they kept hiring him is that he had first right of refusal. If they wanted to use the Daleks, they had to offer him the job. Sadly Romana's regeneration is never explained on TV. I think we have numerous explanations in the expanded universe though. Mary Tamm has claimed she'd have happily come back and filmed a regeneration if they'd asked her. Personally I'd have had the cliffhanger of episode 1 be her getting exterminated and regenerating. But we do get Lalla Ward, whom I definitely prefer. Tom Baker clearly did too, considering he married her about a year after this. It only lasted 18 months though. She actually eventually married Richard Dawkins, although they split up recently. K9's "robot laryngitis" this season is because John Leeson didn't wanna do this season, so for Season 17 he's voiced by David Brierly doing a not-great impression. Although this week and next week, the location work keeps K9 out of action anyway. If Davros looks a bit off, that's because it's a new actor wearing the original prosthetics, so they don't fit him properly. Romana II is definitely better in City of Death next week. This week I think it's more Terry Nation's fault than the character's fault.
I've seen stories that Mary Tamm became pregnant during the break between filming and that was the reason she didn't return.Would have been difficult to get insurance for her at that time rather than now.
Ahh after 5 seasons it’s great to see the Daleks and Davros return. I love the cliffhanger for part 2 with Davros reviving, it’s chilling. Overall I think this story is unfortunately ropey but I still enjoy it.
To be fair, the point of Genesis was to alter the timeline, the Doctor delayed them by 1,000 years which was enough for the Time Lords to consider the mission successful. In this story they're desperate and far less ruthless than they once were. Heck, they yell do not move half a dozen times but Romana isn't moving a single muscle. They can't outwit the Movellans where the Daleks of old would have had no problem at all. There's even the suggestion that these daleks don't even have a mutant inside any more. This story suffered from a severe lack of budget. Michael Wisher couldn't spare the time to come back as Davros, they couldn't afford a new mask for David Gooderson so he gets Wisher's now decaying latex mask cut up and stuck to his face, the Dalek props are old and decrepit... sadly poor all round.
Mary Tamm didn't come back, so they regenerated Romana. No, this does *not* count as more than one Regeneration for her - when you *choose* to Regenerate, you can choose the appearance. And the fact that Romana comes out in an identical version of the Doctor's clothes, followed by an identical version but in pink implies the Doctor may, in fact, just have rows and rows and rows of his own clothes in the wardrobe. Given how many adventures and accidents he gets in to, one has to wonder just *how many* clothes he has... And, yes, Romana is a nerd. You will see she's a right challenge for the Doctor on occasions.
“Oh, look. Rocks!” underrated story, I love it! Flashback to purchasing my first Doctor Who DVD, which was this 😂 both incarnations of Romana are great, but I can never decide which I prefer. Looking forward to SHADA (x?) - Tom Baker, by the way 😁
Terry Nation is an excellent writer after just some are unfortunate than others because after all he not only wrote the Dalek stories he created them if it weren't for him the Daleks would never had came to be and the show would had ended in 1963 it's because of the success of the Daleks that Doctor Who is still ongoing i think some people including fans forget that so i find it a bit disrespectful that you say he can't write. You need to watch "Blakes 7" its one of Terry Nation's best series and "Survivors".
A pretty tedious story, especially after all the pioneering storytelling of the Baker era. The only interesting thing is the experimental use of the new SteadiCam for location filming and apparently the crew used a prototype mobile phone for communication.
I disagree yeah its not the greatest but its goofy fun not everything has to be brain science and serious also i dont see anything remotely the same as 1963.
Keep going fellas, you just need to get through this season [and it has a couple of good things in it] before you reach The Leasure Hive. It was not a great season, and yes, Romana gets a LOT better! I bet you enjoy the next story though - City of Death.
The novelization is by Terrence Dicks and is the thinnest of the novels( even Terry wanted rid of it quick). Different actor voicing K9 for this season and he was not as into the part as John Leeson
Navvy is not, and never has been, a pejorative term, and certainly not for anyone in India. I often wonder if you actually learnt when you lived in England . It derives from "navigator", what the builders of the 17th and 18th century canals , and later trains, were called. Navvies were usually, but not always, Irish. Navvy is still used today. Even if you correct yourself, your first comment was racist. As for the last Romana, she got pregnant in between series - a pregnant Romana would raise eyebrows.
Ah, Season 17. The most boring season of Classic Who with the one exception of Tom Baker's best story and one of the best of all time. What a weird season. I'm also a much bigger fan of Romana I rather than Romana II.
this episode might be the worst dalek story oh behind the scene terry nation wrote the first draft then left to go to America so they couldn't get him to do rewrites
Watch the FULL LENGTH Reaction Here: www.patreon.com/posts/doctor-who-17x1-79062632
A bit of trivia: After this season, Lalla Ward did a Shakespeare with an actor called Patrick Stewart. He made a comment to her "Why are you doing a stupid science fiction show instead of serious work?"
Oh, the irony! It's terribly thick.
😂😂😂😂
lol in an interview with her from a recent blu ray set someone brought that up and she sarcastically said "Oh I wonder whatever happened to him."
Destiny of the daleks is one of the doctor who dvds that I am getting on my birthday on November 1st
I'm jumping in quick around 14:00, so sorry if Richard corrects himself later, but 'navvy' is not a perjorative term for a servant, nor did it come from the British Raj. It is short for 'navigator' ('navigational engineer' in the US) and refer to highly skilled manual labourers, first for those building canals in the 1700s and then for other major projects such as the railway system. Their knowledge of construction and building, such as the make up of cement and concrete, is what the Doctor is refering to here.
Yes I understand it to mean ‘skilled builder’, it certainly makes more sense in context.
The earliest recorded use of the term "navvy" in the UK was in the 1830s, and referred not so much to a skilled engineer as to a heavy labourer who dug out roads, drains and canals. It would become somewhat derogatory later, often embodied in the stereotype of the itinterant "Irish navvy" who'd knock on your door and offer to tarmac your drive for fifty quid.
If Alex is able to cast his memory back to when he watched The Unquiet Dead he might recall that Charles Dickens commented on the ninth Doctor's outfit, stating that he looked more like a navvy than a doctor. Which makes sense, because to a Victorian gentleman, the ninth Doctor's leather jacket and jeans look like clothes that a labourer who has to work outside, needs more durable outfits, and doesn't have spare cash for fancy apparel, might wear. What the ninth Doctor does not resemble is anyone from India or a servant.
Oops, didn't see your comment before making exactly the same point.
Trivia corner: Lalla Ward once played Ophelia to Derek "Professor Yana" Jacobi's Hamlet. The Honourable Sarah Ward (her full name and title) is the daughter of Viscount Bangor, and her great-grandmother was the first person known to have been killed in a motor accident, when she fell under the wheels of a steam-powered car.
14:12 "Navvy" is a slang term, not really derogatory, for labourers involved in building canals and later railways and roads. The canals were originally known as 'navigations' hence 'navvies' from a shortening of 'navigator'. The term is still in use here in the UK and, as I mentioned earlier, I've never heard it used in a derogatory sense. While I'm sure there would have been navvies in British India it wasn't particularly applied to the local population but to those working in the roles associated with the term--labourers constructing the railway network in particular.
Just a little correction guys, the abandoned 6 parter to end this season was not totally animated, they just animated the bits they didn't get to film. So the finished product is a mix of real life and animation. As you know they don't film it an episode at a time, so each episode has real life and animation mixed. There were 6 sets plus location filming, 3 sets were built and filmed with, the location work was all done, but 3 sets were never built and those scenes are animated.
While not the greatest story I have a bit of a soft spot for it. It was the first story I remember watching featuring Davros and the Daleks. Whilst I was aware of the Daleks (probably from cultural osmosis and the Peter Cushing films) I could only vaguely remember watching them on television before. As I was only eight, I was a bit confused to who Davros was but the narrative makes it pretty clear. The BBC did repeat Genesis a few years later.
Some of the Dalek props are really showing their age by now. I'm pretty sure their eye-stalks were more or less stuck in position by this stage, probably because they've been painted over so often. Considering that apart from their voices they can't really emote much, this seems to limit them even more.
Those later seasons (particularly McCoy's era) will go by in a flash. I.e. 8 weeks you'll already be done with 2 full seasons.
Tim Barlow, who played Tyssan, was deaf at the time of filming and passed away this past January.😥
I love the pointing out of Doctor Who fans staying for the discussion because it's so true. We're all nerds who like to hear people talk.
This was director Ken Grieve's only Doctor Who (he had a strong career with all film shows). He shared a flat with Douglas Adams. It was the first Doctor Who story to use the then relatively new "Steadicam" camera. They had massive budget issues on this story (the Dalek props were renovated prior to production but they got used elsewhere for charity events and the like that they were in a bad state again come filming). More music was recorded for the story but Grieve chose not to use.
"Oh Look Rocks!!!" 😉 Terry wrote the script -Douglas Adams changed it to suit the current mood of the actors.
The location, was used before in The Underwater Menace. It has been used again recently in Star Wars: Andor (mining caves)
42:43 - notice Davros’ headrest is straight again? It was bent earlier.
Good news! This is the last story Terry Nation wrote for Doctor Who! If that doesn't make you feel better about this story, nothing will. 😂 They knew that Mary Tamm wanted to leave at the end of the previous season, but Producer Graham Williams was positive he could get her to change her mind, by the time he finally accepted that he couldn't, it was kinda too late to write her out. Tamm herself suggested Lalla Ward as a replacement companion, largely because she and Tom Baker got along so well (they would eventually start dating and even got married, though, sadly, their marriage was short lived.) I don't know if it was ever a consideration to have Tamm come back to film a regeneration into Lalla Ward, but since Mary Tamm was very, very pregnant at the time this story was shot, it wouldn't really have been feasible anyway. The location filming for this story was done at Winspit Quarry in Dorset, where there were the shells of three derelict buildings. There is the germ of a good idea here, unfortunately undermined by the fact that the Movellans are so easily defeated by pulling their battery out, and by the plodding pace. I'll point out that Alex has seen the Movellans before, as they make a brief cameo in NuWho, in the Peter Capaldi episode called The Pilot. As a final point of interest, the actor who plays Tyssan, Tim Barlow, was partially deaf, but could lip read and ran a school for deaf actors.
According to JNT Mary Tamm (Romana I) was pregnant and only had the intention to do one season but she later denied this and was unaware of it and said she would had gladly had done the regeneration scene had she been asked to do so.
Mary Tamm did say she would have returned for a regeneration but nobody asked her. What a wasted opportunity for a dramatic regeneration. We could have had Romana shot by a Dalek and then regenerated into Lalla Ward. I quite like the eerie silence of part one. It’s not the best Dalek story this but it’s a lot of fun. Pity the Daleks look so cheap and battered. It’s odd that Davros refers to the Movellans as another race of robots! He should know that Daleks aren’t robots but living organic creatures in machines. I agree with you about Romana being out of character here. I’d give it a 7/10.
"Why do they keep bringing him back?" As I understand it, Terry Nation had first refusal on any Dalek story since he owned the rights to them. As the Daleks were the most popular enemy the producers wanted to use them so...
To be honest, the stories didn't really strike we viewers as particularly poor at the time, perhaps because watched them over an extended period rather than watching the episodes end to end.
'Destiny Of The Daleks' notes :
Episode One: Viewing figures = 13.0 million. Chart position = 28.
Episode Two: Viewing figures = 12.7 million. Chart position = 39.
Episode Three: Viewing figures = 13.8 million. Chart position = 28.
Episode Four: Viewing figures = 14.4 million. Chart position = 27.
Transmission dates : 1, 8, 15, 22 September 1979
Studio sessions : July 1979.
Studios : TC3 & TC1.
Although Douglas Adams had hoped to introduce new writers to the series, the production-line nature of the 'Doctor Who' schedule, plus the increasing need to attend to the increasing success of 'The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy' meant that in the end Season 17 would rely on familiar names.
Terry Nation was not keen on including K9 and original Davros actor Michael Wisher was not available, so David Gooderson took over the part in a mask not designed for him.
Location filming took place at Winspit Quarry and Binnegar Heath, both in Dorset. (I've done chemical tests on sand from Binnegar Heath when working in analytical chemistry, but could find no trace of exploded Daleks - Andrew)
Money for Dalek props was tight, but a new Steadicam was used for the first time on the show.
Before shooting commenced on 'Destiny', director Ken Grieve joined Douglas Adams on a trip to Paris (where the production team for 'City Of Death' were filming) and they enjoyed a massive pub crawl before Ken had to return to the UK to watch 'Genesis Of The Daleks'. See th-cam.com/video/gv-SwsX1HBA/w-d-xo.html
As the entire ITV network was shut down due to industrial action, the viewers at home had only the two BBC channels available, allowing this story to (very briefly!) claim the record for the episode with the highest viewing figures in 'Doctor Who's history. But 'City Of Death' would top even this...!
'Destiny Of The Daleks' was the third story of Season 17 to be recorded, but the first to be broadcast.
Not the entire ITV network. Channel Television on the Channel Islands still kept transmitting as it was exempt from strike action due to its financially precarious position.
@@stickytapenrust6869 Good point! Thank you. Gently kicking ourselves that we didn't check! 🙂 (Ironically Martin Holmes did us an article on 'Round The Archives' a few years ago about the '79 strike and mentioned that very point, so I should have remembered, having edited that piece myself! Whoops!)
@@RoundTheArchives It probably wouldn’t have made much difference to ratings anyway, Channel’s maximum potential audience was only about 100k!
The ten thousand Daleks are frozen on Spiridon not Skaro understandable mistake seeing that was confusingly called Planet Of The Daleks
You were thinking of the planet Spiridon from Planet of the Daleks, Richard.
Actually, yes we did remember Genesis of the Daleks! Also, by this time, Doctor Who Weekly was being published and had already had features about Davros and the Daleks and Skaro.
I remembered it! I first saw Genesis here in America age 7 in 1978. I must’ve seen it a few times in repeats by the time Destiny was shown in my area sometime around 1982-83.
@@DeanStrickson That's the thing with overseas sales. There were always significant delays between initial viewing in the home country and that of the country exported to. These days much faster, even instantaneous, as with the 50th Anniversary Special. I used to buy Future and Starlog from a bookshop in Ipswich and think that it was great that Doctor Who was getting noticed in the States. We had Star Trek TOS - as it is known now - on the BBC after the original show had been cancelled!
@@DeanStrickson Just checked. We got Star Trek shown first at eight days before the moon landing. First shown July 12th 1969. I thought it was around that date.
The rocky quarry was last seen in 2nd Doctor story The Underwater Menace - and was very recently seen in Star Wars spin-off Andor - it's Winspit Quarry in Dorset (on the coast).
The sandy quarry hadn't featured in the show before, it was Binnegar Heath Sand Pit at Wareham, Dorset.
Don’t worry, the next two dalek stories are by a script editor and you guys already know who wrote Remembrance Of The Daleks.
Nation was given first refusal on writing Daleks script - he chose not to do so again - he was working in America by this point. The script editor, Eric Saward, for the next two Dalek stories would write them as it made it easier to deal with Nation's representatives. By giving the script to a guest writer, things got extra complicated - as Andrew Cartmel, script editor on Remembrance of the Daleks, found out when having to be the go between with the writer and Nation's agent (who he blames his first ulcer on).
For Destiny of the Daleks, Douglas Adams didn't really do a good enough job rewriting - it's an awkward mesh of the writers two styles.
6:00 The first 6 seasons were ca 40 eps per season rather than roughly 26 since. The mid point in terms of eps was during the Pertwee era.
7:30 Not quite, it's a mix of live action and animation.
10:30 Terry Nation script but Douglas Adams script editing.
14:10 Not hear that one Richard! Navvy to me is slang for a labourer who built canals, railways, etc
30:35 Yeah, the next story is much better for Romana.
39:25 Tom definitely stayed too long. Pertwee staying for 5 of ca 26 ep seasons was probably about right. It seems a lot of actors follow Troughton who recommended only doing 3 seasons but of course in his era those seasons were much longer.
Troughton annoys me that he advised Davison to only do 3, and while Davison was making his third and finding the stories good, after he had announced quitting, he wished too late he had stayed for a fourth.
That and Romanas regeneration! Really what more could you ask for? I love this story & episode!!
Director Ken Grieve claimed that the script was in fact "98% re-written by" script editor Douglas Adams. These remarks seem consistent with comments by Adams quoted in Don't Panic by Neil Gaiman (published within the lives of both Adams and Nation). Adams states therein that he had discovered that other writers on Doctor Who considered it the role of the script editor to get the scripts into the correct broadcast order.
Terry Nation was unhappy with Douglas Adams's rewrites, particularly the scene where the Doctor taunts the Dalek by suggesting it climb after him, as he believed that pointing out the Daleks' apparent design flaws made them less menacing, and threatened their popularity with the viewing public.
So yeah, I blame Adams for the script here as Nation was killing with his last 2 Who stories & Blake. I mean he’s the creator of the Daleks, he knows that the Daleks aren’t robots!
that was the first doctor who episode i really remembered, 1979, i was 7
Mary Tamm quit. They tried to get to change her mind. She refused. So Lady Sarah Ward. ( aka Lalla) was brought on. She got on with Tom.
I understand the reason for Romana’s regeneration was primarily because the original actress got pregnant and Tom and Lalla just got on well. REALLY well.
Also you might recognise the location shooting for Skaro as the same spot used recently on Disney’s latest Star Wars series Andor: Winspit Quarry.
Oh and K9 was written out for two reasons, one he was crap on location (they had endless issues on The Stones Of Blood) and Terry hated the idea of writing for him, although it’s generally accepted that Terry basically threw a basic story outline based on previous scripts at Douglas then left for America to write for their shows, so Douglas wrote the rest.
No, it wasn't because Mary Tamm was pregnant - that's a misconception. She was willing to do a regeneration scene but was never asked.
The reason she left was because she felt as though Romana had devolved into the "damsel in distress" type that she wanted to avoid.
@@BulbasaurRepresent but… I thought she wasn’t asked because she was pregnant? Such things were seen as a major inconvenience back then.
@@Lumibear. The only information we really have on it is what Mary Tamm said, and she said what I just said.
@@Lumibear.No, you’re confusing that with Caroline John, who was pregnant at the time she wasn’t asked back because the writers felt her character made the show too cerebral for the audience (even though viewing figures through S7 were consistently high for Who compared to S6).
@@stickytapenrust6869 ooh this gets complicated, I’d guess it’s that issue that stuff that occurred pre-internet is often kept alive by Chinese whispers and repeated chat show stories until someone types it in online, but by then we have multiple versions depending upon who you ask.
Tom Baker and Lalla Ward ended up being a couple, so they just end up flirting a lot. But I still like Romana II as a companion.
it's amazing that series 17 is considered one of the worst in classic doctor who but next week episode city of death is considered a top 10 all time classic
Mary Tamm didn't continue in the role of Romana because she felt that the character had reverted to a traditional assistant role and could not be developed further. The reason given to the public at the time was that she was going to have a child. Also the reason K9 has laryngitis because John Leeson decided not to return to the role; he was replaced by David Brierly. (Imho Leeson is THE voice of K9, no respect intended to Brierly.)
As for your decision to wait until the next episode to make a final decision on your opinion of Lalla Ward's take on Romana, thank you for that. I hope you enjoy "City of Death".
seems terry nation also forgot when writing this script daleks aren't robots they never have been he makes them robots in this story then the next dalek story it's immediately retconned
Was that Terry or Adams?
Michael Wisher the OG Davros couldn’t return so David Gooderson replaced him, but the Davros mask (which was originally fitted for Wisher) was five years old and in poor condition.
There was alot of budgetary restraints at this time. The slave outfits were reused from Planet of Evil and Draconian robes from Frontier in Space.
Also, when Romana briefly regenerates as a short, silvery-blue alien, the actress is wearing a costume recycled from "The Robots of Death".
it was only the daleks that wanted to find dravos because they knew they are organic creatures capable of random thought. so they seek to find therir creater - they are orginic creatures stuck in a logic machine
This season had a different voice actor playing K-9, maybe thats why the doctor says he has laryngitis to explain why his voice is different. The movellans made a cameo re appearance in modern who, series 10 episode 1 ‘the pilot’ they were once again fighting the daleks
Aw, people are too hard on Season 17. I think it’s pretty great and I’m pretty sure you two are going to enjoy the rest of the stories. Yes, that one. And that one. Yeah yeah, even THAT one!
“Oh, look. Rocks!” It is nice to see the daleks again and I do like the part 2 cliffhanger with Davros. But overall, this story is okay.
I suspect if Terry Nation's name had not been on the credits you wouldn't have been so hard on this story.
Flaggerify: You may have a point… but the basic premise - no matter who ended up completing the script - was still just a re-hash. Having seen Christopher Eccleston’s revival episode, it’s clear (to me, anyway) that a new perspective was long overdue. ~Dad
Surprisingly Douglas Adams edited this story. He also wrote some more stories later in this season.
Destiny was Terry Nation's last Dalek story. He created Blake 's 7 and wrote a lot of it in its early days and it was good. Its a cult classic. Then he moved to LA. One of his last credit is Season 1 of the original MacGyver where he wrote 2, but mostly a producer. His last credit was 1989. He died in LA in 1997.
I wonder if the lads have seen Blakes 7, hope Terry Nation creating it doesn't put them off, it is regarded as a classic. Terry wrote series 1 of B7, but then others mainly Chris Boucher took the reins.
There! I was just starting to watch the 'Doctors of Star Trek' at the 2019 con! Oh well. I'll watch that later.
Now, of course, this shows the 'controversial regeneration of Romana. Well, couple that with River's "Shut up, Dad! I'm focussing on a dress size!" I just get the feeling that the females take a bit longer to get ready. Just as the Doctor can regrow a hand - as long as it is within a certain time span of the actual regeneration, a Time Lady can 'try on' a few outfits. Since Romana is a mere 120-130 years old, she can play with it a bit and maybe the control drops of later when she reaches 300-400.
Anyway, welcome to The Honourable Sarah Jill Ward - Lalla - daughter of Edward Henry Harold Ward, 7th Viscount Bangor - whose grandmother was the scientific illustrator Mary Ward, who died in the world's first motoring accident. - and Agnes Elizabeth Hamilton, third daughter of Dacre Hamilton, of Cornacassa, County Monaghan.
I recall seeing a documentary on Doctor Who involving Tom Baker and the other companion actors in his era where they are all on stage or most of them at least with microphones answering audience questions with individual actor interviews in between apparently Mary Tamm who played Romana 1 left because she felt as if her characters her take on Romana could not develop any further so she left the act and had Lalla ward replace her to give a fresher different personality to the character to avoid the character being to samey found the documentary randomly on TH-cam quite obscure thing
Since you mention Big Finish in the intro, perhaps someone needs to start making plans for a boxset titled 'What Happened to the Zeons'
No comment on the Movellans and recognising them from the Capaldi era?
This is the first time in 4 1/2 years, 25 stories, 5 seasons! that from a story's first episode you know it has regular alien creatures in it !
Last time was Revenge of the Cybermen, the story after Genesis. Tom's first season was packed with a spree of 3 classic aliens in a row ! It was followed by an awful run of 17 stories over 3 years when no regular alien creatures were used at all ! thanks to Hinchcliffe wanting to do his own thing without them. There was just one appearance by a regular enemy in that time, the Master in Deadly Assassin, but Time Lords don't count as creatures. Then, Invasion of Time had the Sontarans, but only from ep 4. Until then it seemed like the eighteenth story without creatures. Then no more regulars during the Key To Time season.
So this is still only the second regular creatures return since that too long run without them, and it's the first where it's there for the whole story from start. First time from 26-4-75 to 1-9-79
Good reaction and review as ever. Don’t worry about the remaining 10 seasons in terms of timing btw - the last four are really short.
Welcome to Terry Nation's final Doctor Who script! Supposedly he was not thrilled by all the jokes that Script Editor Douglas Adams added. But the reason they kept hiring him is that he had first right of refusal. If they wanted to use the Daleks, they had to offer him the job.
Sadly Romana's regeneration is never explained on TV. I think we have numerous explanations in the expanded universe though. Mary Tamm has claimed she'd have happily come back and filmed a regeneration if they'd asked her. Personally I'd have had the cliffhanger of episode 1 be her getting exterminated and regenerating. But we do get Lalla Ward, whom I definitely prefer. Tom Baker clearly did too, considering he married her about a year after this. It only lasted 18 months though. She actually eventually married Richard Dawkins, although they split up recently.
K9's "robot laryngitis" this season is because John Leeson didn't wanna do this season, so for Season 17 he's voiced by David Brierly doing a not-great impression. Although this week and next week, the location work keeps K9 out of action anyway.
If Davros looks a bit off, that's because it's a new actor wearing the original prosthetics, so they don't fit him properly.
Romana II is definitely better in City of Death next week. This week I think it's more Terry Nation's fault than the character's fault.
I've seen stories that Mary Tamm became pregnant during the break between filming and that was the reason she didn't return.Would have been difficult to get insurance for her at that time rather than now.
David's K9 voice is definitely a bit more self-assured and huffy than John's. He's quite a little character!
Not only did the Davros prosethetics not fit too well, but the latex had started to perish in some areas.
Ahh after 5 seasons it’s great to see the Daleks and Davros return. I love the cliffhanger for part 2 with Davros reviving, it’s chilling. Overall I think this story is unfortunately ropey but I still enjoy it.
The updated effects on the dvd help.
To be fair, the point of Genesis was to alter the timeline, the Doctor delayed them by 1,000 years which was enough for the Time Lords to consider the mission successful. In this story they're desperate and far less ruthless than they once were. Heck, they yell do not move half a dozen times but Romana isn't moving a single muscle. They can't outwit the Movellans where the Daleks of old would have had no problem at all. There's even the suggestion that these daleks don't even have a mutant inside any more.
This story suffered from a severe lack of budget. Michael Wisher couldn't spare the time to come back as Davros, they couldn't afford a new mask for David Gooderson so he gets Wisher's now decaying latex mask cut up and stuck to his face, the Dalek props are old and decrepit... sadly poor all round.
The movellans make their next appearance in the Season 10 cameo in "Pilot".
Mary Tamm didn't come back, so they regenerated Romana.
No, this does *not* count as more than one Regeneration for her - when you *choose* to Regenerate, you can choose the appearance.
And the fact that Romana comes out in an identical version of the Doctor's clothes, followed by an identical version but in pink implies the Doctor may, in fact, just have rows and rows and rows of his own clothes in the wardrobe. Given how many adventures and accidents he gets in to, one has to wonder just *how many* clothes he has...
And, yes, Romana is a nerd. You will see she's a right challenge for the Doctor on occasions.
“Oh, look. Rocks!” underrated story, I love it! Flashback to purchasing my first Doctor Who DVD, which was this 😂 both incarnations of Romana are great, but I can never decide which I prefer. Looking forward to SHADA (x?) - Tom Baker, by the way 😁
This story is a bit spotty, but the updated effects on the dvd help it a bit.
Terry Nation is an excellent writer after just some are unfortunate than others because after all he not only wrote the Dalek stories he created them if it weren't for him the Daleks would never had came to be and the show would had ended in 1963 it's because of the success of the Daleks that Doctor Who is still ongoing i think some people including fans forget that so i find it a bit disrespectful that you say he can't write.
You need to watch "Blakes 7" its one of Terry Nation's best series and "Survivors".
A pretty tedious story, especially after all the pioneering storytelling of the Baker era. The only interesting thing is the experimental use of the new SteadiCam for location filming and apparently the crew used a prototype mobile phone for communication.
Nation didn't like K9 so wrote him out - and certainly didn't want scenes between Daleks and K9.
This is one the only four-parters that I've never been able to make it through in one go. The bland beigeness of it all puts me to sleep. Bye Terry!
I disagree yeah its not the greatest but its goofy fun not everything has to be brain science and serious also i dont see anything remotely the same as 1963.
Keep going fellas, you just need to get through this season [and it has a couple of good things in it] before you reach The Leasure Hive. It was not a great season, and yes, Romana gets a LOT better! I bet you enjoy the next story though - City of Death.
The novelization is by Terrence Dicks and is the thinnest of the novels( even Terry wanted rid of it quick).
Different actor voicing K9 for this season and he was not as into the part as John Leeson
Navvy is not, and never has been, a pejorative term, and certainly not for anyone in India. I often wonder if you actually learnt when you lived in England . It derives from "navigator", what the builders of the 17th and 18th century canals , and later trains, were called. Navvies were usually, but not always, Irish. Navvy is still used today. Even if you correct yourself, your first comment was racist. As for the last Romana, she got pregnant in between series - a pregnant Romana would raise eyebrows.
Yes this is s pretty poor story ,but it sets up the other remaining Dalek stories in the classic era and the movellans are a pretty interesting race
Ah, Season 17. The most boring season of Classic Who with the one exception of Tom Baker's best story and one of the best of all time. What a weird season.
I'm also a much bigger fan of Romana I rather than Romana II.
this episode might be the worst dalek story oh behind the scene terry nation wrote the first draft then left to go to America so they couldn't get him to do rewrites
But Douglas Adams edited it.