One absolutely necessary feature for me of the next generation of home battery storage is that it can make use of and integrate people’s current battery storage no matter what the make. Most who have battery storage have paid a lot of money to buy it and have it installed. It is very short sighted for any battery producer not to make it possible to use what households already have. It would not be very environmentally friendly to throw away 4 perfectly good batteries, although I would love to get a Tesla Powerwall 3.
That's a really good point, Ian. There's no standardisation yet. I am heavily involved in this with my day job in the mobile industry, and I can totally endorse the view that standardisation opens up human progress a lot more than innovation alone.... Let's see what happens over time :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience it will be a 3rd party who invent some kind of ‘integration box/system’. That will then force the big companies to follow suit. (a bit like the Tesla car chargers initially being exclusive to Tesla cars). I hope the innovator makes their money before the big boys step in 😉
@@GaryDoesSolar The other innovation I am waiting for is a reliable, affordable domestic wind generator. Living in Wales we have wind more often than sun. I realise it would never produce as much power as my solar but it would supplement.
From a control system point of view there's an incompatibility of having two independent controllers trying to set the grid drain to zero. Even running a Zappi or Eddi load for example with an independent solar hybrid inverter plus battery has issues with deciding when there's a surplus to supply the load and NOT drain the battery which will be independently trying to supply it when the solar surplus drops. You have to employ techniques like setting an export threshold before loading etc. Having two inverters with batteries acting independently, both capable of charging and discharging could lead to some interesting bistable latching effects with one supplying or draining the other. I know Huawei can use IEEE comms to enable cascading hybrid inverters where one is set to master and the other slave. If it's just the battery capacity to be added the battery management can cascade battery stacks but that's under the one manufacturer. If you had an existing AC coupled battery and wanted to add an additional hybrid inverter and battery etc that couldn't talk to each other it may be possible to set an export threshold on one or slow its response time so the other takes the lead possibly, although it's a compromise and certain load patterns may still cause issues.
Agreed. The Powerwall 3 is the best battery out there. For most homes, you can backup the entire home without the need for load management. The integration of a power control system is also huge and solves a problem going back to the original gateway.
@@GaryDoesSolar BUY a BYD and plug it in to the House can`t do that with a tesla yet BUY a Tesla Model 3 $50.000 + powerwall $20.000 =$70.000 BYD $50.000 plug into House save $20.000 car cost $30.000 Tell me if I'm Wrong
You hit the nail on the head for me when you mentioned battery chemistry. Like you, getting LFP for my panels is hugely important from safety and longevity/ value for money perspective. In addition, I would like to have the flexibility of not discharging to grid automatically.
Yeah, being able to control your setup in the way that you'd like is key! It's good to see more and more manufacturers building in that capability (through mobile apps, software APIs and the like).
@@GaryDoesSolar Tesla is playing catchup. Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra DESTROYS Tesla and is available TODAY with all the features you mentioned and MUCH MORE, at a FRACTION OF THE COST of the Tesla Powerwall 3.
We have had a Tesla powerwall 2 battery for 3 years now. Even though we are still grid tied it keeps us virtually offgrid. It can run the whole house easily and cuts in straight away if the grid goes down. It is just like the whole house is on a UPS. It is still at full capacity and hasnt degraded at all accorrding to the app Netzero. We had solar installed for one year before we got the battery waiting for the price to go down but it didn't $16,500 NZD installed is a big amount but we have never regretted it since we made that jump to a powerwall 2. We have 22 panels ( 6.5kw) feeding it and they handle it np. The TOU (time of use) config built into it you can adjust yourself to the peak and offpeak power times is great! It is one purchase we have never regretted !!
Thanks for sharing this Steve! Sounds like you're having a great experience with the Powerwall. Will be very helpful to others looking at Tesla products! :-)
I have 3x Powerwall 2’s stacked as a full house backup. They are incredible and we don’t even realize when we have a power outage unless I check the Tesla notifications on my phone. System was sized with solar to allow for multi-day outages in Texas summers and goodness it was expensive but I swear by it now. Best zillion $$ ever spent 😂
@@GaryDoesSolar yes, it’s a complete Tesla system. It’s only 16 panels but it’s enough for my wife and I. Not connected to the grid yet, so I can’t send my excess back, but that should be a month away.
@@paperklip3 it actually fell from when I started the process in late 2022. I paid 30k for more panels than the original plan. After rebates it should run about 16k.
Thanks for a great video. I am in the US and considering a Powerwall. I have a proposal from the company. One frustrating thing about the proposal is that they have positioned it on the outside of the house, when I wanted it in my cellar, as shown in many of their promotional materials. When I asked why they couldn’t put it in the cellar, they said that they could if I was willing to spend an extra $8,000 for them to build a fireproof room. None of the pictures include this little item, but they said that the US electrical code requires it! Now I have to decide whether I want them in a less ideal location or spend big bucks. It almost seems like an intentional omission!
When I got my PW 2s it led to a huge proliferation of electrical panels on the side of my house even though I had them in the garage. The PW3 will reduce the amount of extra panels as you can see in the video. So maybe just put the oowerwalls by the meter and call it even.
I think if the PW3 had LFP chemistry, it would be promoted in the marketing. My bet is that the chemistry hasn’t changed. It also has more hardware on board which adds to the weight.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. I'm hoping that someone will be able to confirm one way or the other soon... And if it's NMC, it's actually a great chance for Tesla competitors to take advantage.... (hard to take on Tesla at anything these days!)
@@pauld3327I disagree. It’s well known that recent standard range models have LFP chemistry. The advice regrading charging strategy is also different with these models, i.e. it’s OK to charge to 100%.
I live on my sailboat, I bought an used NiFe batteribank. It will last me the rest of my life. My yearly cost of living is around $3500 including everything, even Starlink internet and I won't have any future battery cost's. It was my life's smartest move, moving onboard, I deliver food for one month a year on my Honda CT 125, and have a 11 month vacation fishing and sailing!
Well, it sounds like you've worked out a great life for yourself. And I love the fact that you're able to conduct any business you need to do from wherever you happen to be via StarLink - that tech amazes me every day! I think you're an inspiration to others (especially those who feel they're on a treadwheel!)
Excellent video, here in the US we can go with Enphase Micro Inverters like IQ8 series that will run and produce power for your home from solar panels during the day and you can run a smaller battery if you want to balance load etc. The Tesla Powerwall 3 Is great but if you have an EV your 60 to 80 kWh battery sitting outside is a wasted very large capacity LFP storage solution. We need to quickly see more availability and implementation of that resource as we electrify everything. Much better utilization of you capital I believe.
I've had the Sungrow GSR-SBR 12.8 KWh battery connected to a 10kW solar system for a year now and it works perfectly. It's usually charged by 10am and gives us all the power we need after sunset without drawing from the grid. Running the large aircon at night for more than an hour depletes it though.
Sounds like a good setup. I think this is going to be a problem for many people though - having a home battery large enough to run AC or a heat pump for a long period of time during the day/night.
Yes. On dome cold days my ground source heat pump uses up to 50kwh running from 5am to 6pm. You would need a huge battery to store enough cheap rate overnight electricity to run the heat pump during the day. On the other hand many EVs now have 80kwh batteries so it is possible, we just need a chemistry that does n ot degrade over decades of operation.@@GaryDoesSolar
It will be interesting to see the differences from an installers point of view as our UK home electric infrastructure is quite different to the USA in a lot of ways. We fit Powerwall 2 a lot and it’s a great product, I doubt Powerwall 3 will be coming to the UK any time soon. I had a meeting with Tesla Energy last week and they are really pushing Powerwall 2 in the UK at the moment. Will be interesting to see what design changes they will need to make to the gateway/backup side before they can roll it out here…
Yeah, Tesla is certainly US-centric in their approach to the market (I can't blame them as it's a huge market) but I agree - it would be good to see what they're able to do with UK installations. Hopefully, they're looking at that!
I have a 22kWh Sonnen Batterie with a SonnenProtect. One important feature of that German battery is the 10,000 cycles warranty. Currently I am using it at average 1 cycle per day, when the electricity price spread in a day is larger, I use 2 cycles per day, as I make a bit of extra money with the system. The Protect function is also important for me, because in times of crisis and a grid disruption, it allows me to keep on using the system for about 7 to 8 months per year.
I much prefer the idea of separate items to make up an ESS. This not only allows picking & mixing the best items between manufacturers but also for me, having a single unit that charges, inverts and is a battery means if any one of the those components go down the whole unit fails. I do accept however that most people cannot do the work themselves so it's a slightly mute point if your not a handyman.
Thank you Gary. I would suggest that THE most important feature for the mass market would be the ability to "set and forget". The thing stopping me from implementing a system is the sheer complexity of management involved. My partner is a technophobe and would just expect it to work with no input from themselves. I've been monitoring the Givenergy battery owners forum on FB and it feels that you need to be very hands on just to keep the system ticking over. That's fine for me but when I die my partner would be badly exposed.
I totally agree, and I'm hoping I managed to get that point across in the video - in the early days, it's fine to take an interest in how things work, but actually, where we want to get to is an installation simply reporting if there is anything going wrong with it, and keeping quiet the rest of the time...
Thank you for your efforts in getting to that point. I just saw the video as suggesting that capacity was the most important factor. I'm not sure if any order was intended in the features mentioned. Anyway, when it just becomes a once a year system check, and the system delivering everything required at the cheapest rates - then we'll be there.
I have had a Tesla power wall system including solar input and have left it to get on with it. After initial setup It has managed to work out when to charge and how much as well as handling export when there is excess solar. The only help it needs at the moment is to tell it what the price charged and paid by my supplier is when it changes. It even manages the weather. The only thing it doesn't know is when I do something completely different with energy usage. (its no good with variable pricing) Don't forget that many forums are written by enthusiasts and fiddlers who like to play just like car forums where people mess with their cars (I am one of both at heart) Many people will be happy with the default settings. Just because you can push buttons doesn't mean you have to.
I have a PW2 and you are right it is hands on during an extended outage. The onboard solar inverter should however make it so I wouldn’t need to do anything at all. All of my fiddling is usually to avoid getting into a black start situation with PW2, but since the PW3 can charge straight off solar without energizing the rest of the house in principle, it should be able to rescue itself. It’s definitely what I’d be looking at if I wanted a battery for a rental or an elderly parent.
I liked your take on the a Tesla PW3. I’m always keen on one more consideration and that’s PRICE. 😉. You showed a picture of the blue prismatic cells that you suspected were being used. I like these because of price. I gather the PW3 is costing GBP6000 plus installation etc. have spent about the same on 48 prismatic cells and an 11.2 Kw inverter from China. This DIY setup lets me run off grid all the time - in Australia where we do get some weeks with clouds and poor sunlight. I know most people will not want to run off grid, but it lets you see the huge margins that must be paid to buy ready made systems.
Hi Sandy, yeah the cells were the first images I came across in fact (just to show the shape). I really like your setup - and it sounds like it's working really well for you! :-)
Hi Sandy. I'm hoping to put together a DIY solar set-up (ideally to store thermally until the winter, but that's another story.) You recommend any good sources of information on getting started? Sites, channels, forums? Also, you know anything about using EV batteries for home storage? I can get a 45 kWh, almost brand-new EV battery, for about 5K, which blows any other source I can see out of the water. Going on a bit. Be really grateful for any advice, links. Thanks. Michael.
THE drawback of the Tesla Power Wall is that it cannot be obtained without solar. I frankly DO NOT WANT roof-mounted solar, I want a whole-home battery that steps in during the fairly rare electrical outages in my area.
Is that still the case? I know they were doing that for a while, but I know in the UK, it's possible to buy one without solar. Should be the same in other countries...
It has been a while since I checked. When last I did, one could not buy separate from solar. Will have to recheck...it may be time to sign the check...
I have an appointment with Tesla to come by my San Francisco house to add the PW3 to my Enphase/LG panels I had for 5 years. It wasn't before as thre was a PW shortage. Awesome I pay under $10/month for my electric bill! Want to get rid of my $40/month gas bill to go 100% electric!
I have a Growatt system with 5kW hybrid inverter and 2x 6.5kWh wall mounted batteries (11.7kWh usable). A single battery was marginal for my daily usage. The second battery allows for more peak rate export to Octopus Flux and powering aircon in the summer. The Growatt inverter is frustratingly capped at 3kW output from battery even though the pair of batteries are capable of 6kW. Powerwall 3 looks like an excellent option but I suspect it would cost several times more than what I have. As an engineer I like the modularity of my system and enjoy tweaking the settings to play with different import/export strategies. For the average non-technical user this would be a deal-breaker and the Tesla solution would be much more attractive.
I agree, Matt. And I'd like there to be more standardisation across manufacturers as well. I'm sure it'll come eventually. It's interesting times in the home solar and battery world! :-)
Thank you @GaryDoesSolar for the great videos. Spoke to an electrician today about an AIO quote. During our discussion about the PW3, he confirmed that it uses LFP chemistry. He also showed me a screenshot he took from the technical plate taken during the presentation day in Birmingham.
The “best” features depend on how your local utility works really. If you pay more at certain times of day, the battery can add value by charging at low periods and releasing energy at high. In my area, utilities are starting to charge more for peak power (kW) .. so peak shaving is where I would benefit the most.
I agree, and hopefully more and more energy providers will start offering such "time of use" tariffs to their customers, just like Octopus Energy does in the UK and other countries.
I've been looking at options for home. We typically use 11-13Kwh a day, excluding EV charging (11kwh typical) so a single Power Wall or GE AIO would work. But if I did go for it'd want to replace my gas boiler and I've estimated we'd need up to 25kwh on a cold winter day. It's not realistic finalcially to add 2 more units, but 1 more certainly. I need to keep an eye on GE for when they have stacking available. Another super useful video! Thanks!
Cheers, and I guess as we electrify more and more in the home, we're all going to need greater battery capacity - I'm just happy to see that battery technology is getting better and better all the time to support that (especially with the pricing!) Thanks for the kind words about the video! :-)
I've been living with 2 Powerwalls for several years now (I think they are powerwall 2's). Anyway, 27kwh is enough to run our house off grid 24 hours no problem AS LONG AS the HVAC system isn't running. During the hottest and the coldest months when our home's HVAC runs a lot, the powerwalls only last a few hours once the sun goes down. We have a large home, around 6,000 sq/ft of living space, with 2 furnances, 2 A/C's, and several refrigerators/freezers. So, our usage is high. Overall, we love the Powerwalls and they have been an awesome upgrade to our home. I just wish I could afford 5 or 6 of them! It's all about battery prices for these, just like EVs
Thanks for sharing this, Jason - I think it will be useful to many people who are trying to understand what the experience will be like with a home battery - including a Tesla Powerwall setup. Yeah, pricing is always an issue, but pricing continues to drop over time, so such products will soon be more affordable to many :-)
I regularly watch your channel. It is clearly one of the most useful home-solar YT channels! I live in Reno, NV. I am seriously interested in an Octopus-like service provider. Please consider doing research and a video on such service options in the US. Thanks.
Thanks - great to hear feedback like this :-) I'd love to see if energy providers across the world follow in Octopus Energy's footsteps... Octopus Energy actually licence out their 'Kraken' platform to other energy providers - so they can quickly offer smart tariffs... Might come quicker than you think!
Great video. One additional benefit of PW 3 is that it works seamlessly with Cybertruck (CT). CT can be used as a huge battery backup. Not sure when CT will come to UK but I am considering using a switch to use my CT as a battery backup during power outage, which is rare here in KS. Of course if you buy a foundation series CT this comes with the unit.
There’s more info on V2H on the CT page on Tesla website, this is one reason why as an installer we are recommending the Tesla Gen 3 charger as a starting point - plus Gen 3 is now also doing charge on solar - then add battery etc as you go. Gen 3 charger plus Gateway 2 will be able to offer V2H same as CT at a later date via other Tesla vehicles (later in 24/25) the inverter in cars is being changed to do bidirectional and so offer backup from the vehicle to a home that’s isolated from the grid. I suspect that V2G will also be possible when the standards for U.K. are set but that’s probably 18mon-2yrs away. PW3 will be available as an inverter or non inverter versions too so extending the capacity will be cheaper. Plus It’ll also be available as a non backup unit if I recall correctly the conversation with the Tesla team meaning you don’t have to pay for the backup gateway if you don’t want it, again saving probably £1k off installation
Our humble Nissan Leaf does too.. I know a guy who used to charge his ZOE at Pod Point at Tesco, drive home, cook his tea then dump the rest to Grid for cash then go back to Tesco for more.. 2 full Batteries a day sold - no wonder Tesco stopped free charging. The cheeky beggar was even doing it when it reduced to 15mins, jumping out every 15mins to restart the free charge timer. Go home and top up his pension!! And they want to get rid of CHADEMO!! So no need to line Elon's greasy pockets for bi direction charging and backup.
@@Goodkiwibloke doesn’t matter the CT inverter that allows those features will be incorporated into rest of vehicles in due course so likely within 1-2 years bidirectional will be available on all. This was disclosed on a video with Sandy Munro by either Lars Moravian or Drew Baglino can’t remember which one
Agreed with respect to LFP. I have a home made backup using LFP batteries and I will not have an NMC battery in my house. Tesla have arguably the best understanding of NMC, and mostly fabulous software but I still don’t want NMC. And of course an extra benefit is that LFP is also good for more cycles.
Agreed. Although it's heartening to hear that Tesla has shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date, and I've not heard anything about fires etc. I'm with you though - I prefer LFP in the home over NMC.
@@GaryDoesSolar PV Magazine In a new paper, researchers from the University of Sheffield, Imperial College London, and the University of St Andrews in the United Kingdom have conducted a detailed meta-analysis of 60 papers to investigate the most influential battery parameters and the probable off-gas characteristics to determine what kind of battery would be least hazardous. They have found that while NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, but that LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms.
Gary, a quick follow-up on my previous comment... Rocky is as dry as an old biscuit as far as his delivery is concerned. But he gets all the facts right and gives some real insights into different products and their inbuilt capabilities. For example, his review of the new Tesla PW3 is great - he explains why the solar inverter is a whopping 20KW - and his analogy regarding their DC expansion units is really good... think of it as a 'bigger petrol tank', with the same size motor! Brilliant!! Cheers Mick
Another first rate video, I'm in the planning stages of a solar/storage project and consider your content essential viewing! I've had an ASHP system for coming up to 5 years in my 1980's built house and would be happy to share my data/experience 👍
FYI the Prismatic batteries are typically ~300Ah and store about 1 KWh. so 48 cells can deliver about 48KWh vs 13.6KWh for a Tesla 2 or 3. (I have 3 banks each are 16 Cells in series.)
Thank you. Your videos are so informative. I now have 2 powerwall2, ashp, 3kw solar,Tesla model3 coming Saturday.. . All are great investments.. Keep up the good work👍
Cheers Colin - wow, you're really going for it! Well ahead of me - I'm only just thinking about what kind of heat pump to get. I can't quite afford an EV yet, but hopefully later this year. Good luck with the Model 3 and all the best! :-)
We have a Samsung ashp..house is a new build. No app to control which is a shame... The filters block periodically... If I had a choice I would have had a Valliant... Good luck..
I believe the powerwall 3 has separate outputs for loads that are battery backed during a power cut and normal on-grid loads, so you can ensure only critical circuits stay up in the event of a power outage.
I try not to talk about actual prices in my videos as it quickly dates them (not least because prices are falling over time). There is usually a premium to pay for good brands and recently launched products, but in time even that dissipates 👍🏻
I currently have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and love the features, being able to use solar to charge if a powercut is ongoing. Like you I really want a 2nd but currently looking at the DNO and believe I will need 3 phase as i also have 8 kWh solar and zappi.
No worries. I was just checking the videos I missed from your channel, in the last months. I was busy studying. Thank you again, Gary. I will keep up. Your channel is underrated and sure deserves more views and subs.@@GaryDoesSolar
@@youxkio Cheers. And yeah, it's growing slowly... It's hard to get traction on TH-cam but I'm going to keep producing videos, and hopefully one day, it'll get broader exposure... 🙂
Don't give up. Keep creating. More solar-related topics include solar cell (junction) composites, new scientific discoveries, and testing. Corporations that work on the different processes of installation, maintenance, and production of solar panels [LinkedIN]. Euro vs Chinese panels [or others]. Development of solar deployment in other countries and their latest results on mitigating energy governmental budget and state savings/inflation. Many other subtopics are related to solar transition. All in your free time of course. Happy days. @@GaryDoesSolar
Hi I agree Octopus are a great energy supplier but with one caveat they do not have a low night time energy tariff for someone wanting to have battery storage only, that is no Solar input or having a EV charger.
I have a battery and storage heaters as the main electricity grid consumers. The tariffs that used to be suitable have become EV owner only! Last year I believe the government forced the energy companies to change their Economy 7 tariffs so the daytime rate was lowered, but what they also did is raise the overnight rate by a similar amount. So for example 6p/kw raised 10p so that 46p daytime could be 36p. It’s a massive ~260% increase in night rate! I’m currently on Octopus Agile but would prefer Octopus Go for its predictable overnight rate. Are there any traditional cheap rate Economy 7 supplier available?
I just had 2 PW3s and Solar 7.25 kWh consisting of 18 panels installed at my home, I have no experience with other systems but the Tesla system is totally seamless. The installers said that the batteries are LFP but they may also be guessing. I am hooked to the grid and the solar / battery is working but am waiting for the city to inspect and approve exporting to the grid which is scheduled for next Wednesday.The local utility provides for credit 1 to 1 for export and pays any surplus once a year. I hear the talk about how BEV cars are going to cause issues on the grid but IMHO the amount of people installing Solar/batteries should more than offset and extra loads
Hi James, thanks for sharing this. Of all the home battery manufacturers, Tesla seems to be the only one that provides a "fire and forget" product - which of course is a key requirement for the mass market.
Gary, another great video! Not sure if you've ever seen any of "Rocky Broad Solar" videos, but if you get the chance, check some of them out. I'm from Oz, and you're a pom (Scottish ??), so getting used to his accent is a challenge. But he has no BS and no ads, and he really digs deep into the specs and functionality of different batteries, etc. Keep up the great content, and thanks for simplifying all things solar. Cheers, Mick
I have a 10kw solar system with 10.5kw battery, south/east/west facing (UK). Over winter, October to March we struggle to fill the battery capacity with solar but fill it up at cheap rates at night which will get most through to the next nightly slot. We are heavy electric users over winter mainly due to heat pump providing heat and water but also the sewage pump and MVHR system constantly running, plus the oven and hobs are also electric. I have a V2L car I plug into our hybrid system and that supplements the house battery, getting us through to the cheap rates on cloudy days when the house batteries aren't enough. This is the best set-up IMO. You don't need more than 10kw house battery. Better investing in a hybrid inverter with off grid capacity and a V2L car so you can access that huge battery capacity sitting on the drive. From April to September especially on sunny days the house batteries fill up quickly and you don't need more capacity than 10kw. Selling back to the grid gives minimum returns currently. With a hybrid off/on grid system you can also avoid power cut issues which affects standard solar inverters.
Hi Adam, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree, there is a lot of value in have a very large battery present for a fair percentage of the time, backed up by a (as you suggest) 10kWh battery :-)
I ordered my second Powerwall 2 about a month ago, so the title certainly grabbed my attention! I've had the PW2 for 3½ years. I am whatever you call the opposite of a Tesla fanboi, and wouldn't drive one of their latter-day Mondeos for a big clock. However I had to accept that, in 2020, the PW2 was head and shoulders above the competition for my requirements & priorities, which closely match the ones you outline in this vid. Performance has been flawless - looking outside and realising that all the neighbours had a powercut was childishly thrilling - and the app is a masterclass in how these things should be done. I guess I'm left wondering whether to hang on for the PW3 to become available, or pounce on the PW2 the minute the DNO authorises the connection. Probably the latter… Thanks for a great vid.
Cheers Mark. Yeah, Elon Musk is not everyone's cup of tea, but his companies do design great products that the rest of the market follow closely. The Powerwall 2 is not only iconic, but it's supremely robust. I've heard from many installers that it's "install and forget" - for me, that's one of the greatest statements you could ever make about an energy management solution :-) I don't think you can go wrong continuing with the PW2 - especially as the pricing is looking really good in Europe at the moment!
I have a Powerwall 2. Contacted Tesla about getting a Powerwall 3 but was told the two are not compatible (I suppose because the 3 has a built in inverter). They offered me a PW2. I asked if the price of the PW2 was lower and they said it was the same. Don't know if I would pay the same money for the inferior product. The advantages of PW3 are way more than the built in inverter which I don't need. Hopefully, they will come up with a policy that helps people in our boat like trading in a PW2 for a PW3 or selling the PW2 at the discount it needs compared to the PW3 or figuring out a way to make them compatible.
@@markiliffwhat makes you not want to buy one of the most affordable, low maintenance, fastest acceleration, safest vehicles? Just because Elon hurts your feelings? A good product is a good product regardless of who is behind it, my guess is that you are brainwashed by mainstream media as they only spout negativity towards Tesla and Elon. Best not to listen to them.
Ac start-up matters, but a dryer can stay on a very high consumption for a long time, because of its heater. Start-up issues usually occur when an inductive load is turned on.
Thanks for the great feedback! I’ve not heard any more concrete news on that yet, but here’s an article I found on LinkedIn which might shed some light: www.linkedin.com/pulse/tesla-really-entering-gb-electricity-market-dallington-energy
Gary, quick question. As the Tesla PW3 has the string inverter contained within its package, does that mean that the battery element is charged directly from the solar in DC and therefore only needs to convert to AC once (when it puts power into the house or the grid), vice a AC coupled battery that will need to to a DC/AC conversion 3 times? If so, does that mean that the power loss is reduced from roughly 10% to only 3% - which takes into account the home efficiency rating you quoted?
Gary, thanks for Vid. I have 38 Enphase solar panels and 2 X Tesla Power wall batteries at home. But the discharge is a problem as we have a Tesla model Y and would like to get a second EV soon. The discharge of the battery is a disappointment as we often need 14 to 17 Kwh when we are charging the car and at home using appliances. Can you link powerwall 3 to a sting of powerwall 2 batteries?
You’re most welcome - thanks for watching! 😊 Now, is there a way to wire your EV charger(s) so that your Powerwalls don’t see their usage (via the CT Clamps)? That is the key, I think, but an electrician will know better than I do… I’ve been told that with an up-coming software update, the PW3 will become compatible with PW2 👍🏻
RE: EPS - it took me some lengthy research and queries with multiple installers to finally confirm that NOT ALL systems with EPS are capable of charging a battery from the solar panels when the grid supply is interrupted. So it is possible to spend a few £thousands and be out of electricity on a sunny day :p The setup I settled for uses an inverter from Growatt, 18 panels connected as two strings (E-W) and a single 2nd generation Powerwall. When the zombie apocalypse comes this should still run for as long as there is sunlight or battery reserves. :)
Agreed - and it just shows that meticulous research is still the key today. It's a fair assumption that people would make about solar topping up batteries during a power outage, but as you say, in many cases a wrong one.
In UK our electricity grid is very stable it's very rare we have power cuts. If needs be I can run extension lead from my inverter . For me not worth paying alot more for that feature
@@NunoLima1337 hi, what does that got to do with my eleckly going off? Still can run power if stuck untill battery goes flat and if it's between November to Feb I'm hardly producing any solar power.
The key number on powering AC units is Locked Rotor Amps (LRA). My 3-ton AC needs 83 LRA to start. The PW2 and 3 easily can start my AC system. But the PW3 just blows past the 2. So yes ONE PW3 can power a whole house albeit for a limited time if your are careless and don't shed some systems.
Garry, as always very interesting. I will be installing two Tesla Powerwalls in my home. Would you wait for the Tesla Powerwall 3 or go ahead with 2 Tesla Powerwall 2's as the combined out put is 10kW, or install a Powerwall 2 now and add a Powerwall 3 when they are available? I would love your thought please.
Thanks James. For me, because my garage (where the battery would go) is directly below my bedroom, I'd not go for any battery solution that was NMC. But if I was installing batteries on an outside wall, that would be fine. And it's worth knowing that Tesla has just reported that they've shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date. And trust me, if they were all going on fire the whole world would know about it! So, maybe I'm being too risk-averse? In the UK, PW2 pricing is really good at the moment, so taking advantage of buying two units (increased power and capacity) makes a lot of sense. There's no mixing and matching possible with the PW3 though (which is a shame). All the best with what you decide - I don't think you can go wrong though...
In the USA at least, if you get a Cybertruck and have a Powerwall and a Tesla charger, the Cybertruck can add effective additional battery capacity up to 11.5kw I think. If you don't have a Powerwall you need another item, a special Gateway (Powerwalls use a different Gateway) that will take a few seconds to 'switch' to battery from the truck if it is plugged in. We are just getting 3 Powerwall 2s installed, it was under contract before PW3 was available and it should be commissioned tomorrow!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls. However, bc my garage is so tight, the Pw must be mounted externally, on the car port side, which worries me about how easy battery theft would be. Thoughts?
You don't need a Cybertruck or Powerwall for that. I do this in the UK with a Sunsynk Hybrid inverter and a Hyundai Ioniq car. All you need is a hybrid inverter with off grid capcaity and a car with V2L (Hyundai, Kia, Leaf, VW camper, Genesis, Ford Truck...more coming)
Fantastic video. In future ones, if you can comment as well on the ability of the battery to charge discharge on its own and the assocuted app to monitor it, would be extremelly useful. Hoping the powerwall3 is available in Spain soon.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yes, I'll be picking up on that topic as time goes on. For the mass market, I think people would be happy for their setup to essentially manage itself, and simply reporting performance periodically.
Very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing your reseach. I guess if you also own an electric car the benefits of the power wall are even greater. Thinking about that though, if you own a modern electric car with car to home capabilities, would that not make having a power wall unnecassary?
Thanks for your kind words :-) Now, I'm getting asked this a lot, and I'll be covering this in a future video. As an EV will not be at the property a 100% of the time, there is still very much the case for having a home battery, and perhaps the size of that home battery could be chosen according to the percentage of the time the EV will be away...
Another interesting feature that Tesla have just introduced is charge your Tesla car with excess solar. So you need a Tesla car, a PW2 and seems to work with any EV charger. The slider bar on the app gains a second sliding dot, first dot is charge from any source to that level and a 2nd dot is charge to that 2nd level with excess solar. The setup uses the current sensors in the PW2 to measure the exported current and then continuously adjusts the charging current demand from the car to minimise the exported energy.
Fantastic vids; I was wondering about a couple of items that you might know about; when will PW3 be available for UK/IRL markets? And sense of pricing? And lastly…. Will it play well and integrate with previous/existing inverters and batteries…. Do you know?
Thank you for the kind feedback. I'm hearing mid/late 2024 for introduction to the UK, but no word on pricing. Apparently PW3 doesn't play with PW2 at all :-( but will integrate to any inverter.
Many thanks Gary - your videos are so well set out and informative. Apologies if i missed it, but i assume that the powerwall is an ac coupled system and so would it be possible to retrofit to a solar system with a DC-coupled battery when extra storage needed (e.g., on addition of a heat pump) without the batteries interfering with each other? Or do you have to replace the DC coupled batteries if upgrading with such a battery? Thanks
Thanks for your kind words, Joe. Yeah, whilst it’s possible to add an AC coupled battery to any existing solar system, if that system already has a battery, then there is likely to be interference between the two batteries. For example, the existing battery of the system draining into the newly added battery. This can sometimes be prevented if all of the equipment is manufactured by the same company, but in the case of GivEnergy (my own setup), I note that this is not the case (which is a shame).
I agree, yet what I feel is really the future is a standard 15 kwh wall and a 25 kwh wall for all homes. With local proximity mapping power sharing.. If power goes down, a neighborhood could power share... making sure everyone maintains a safe level and allowing for the growing ev market home charging options..
Bought 1 Powerwall 2, bought 2 more. Got 2.3kWp solar. Remote location UK, now have a week's worth of storage. Have economy7, absolutely no problems, great Tesla app.
This really depends on where you live. Here in northern Norway, with an EV, avg consumption in March is 98kwh per day with 10-15kw peak output required. In February avg consumption was 120kwh per day...
By my calculations, the pw3 has one of the best cost-to-payoff of the batteries I've looked at. 8 years to payoff just the battery (assuming on-peak load and off-peak charging). However, it's the installation that kills the product. Installed it goes for 8 years to 16. However, with the incentives, it drops to 11 years. That puts it on par with the ecoflow delta pro.
The Kia EV9 supports V2H, which with a 2 way charger can give a huge 94kwh usable capacity on top of that it also supports 11kw output. Now of course that is horribly expensive, but with more Kia with smaller batteries and much cheaper prices being released this year, they can give the best of both worlds, a home storage battery and backup during a major environmental disaster, and transport.
As my panels have a complex shading issue (I took regular pictures of the roof) I went for micro-inverters (generally considered better than optimisers). This really took me down the route of an AC coupled system. I didn't bother with the EPS as it would have required some rearranging of circuits and having a split PME/TT system. I'd probably already discounted the Tesla Powerwall 2 on the grounds of cost. Also, at the time, availability of any system, including GivEnergy, was scarce. I also wanted 5kW and that discounted GivEnergy (AC, at least). I've got Solax and I'm fairly happy with that and have good control with Home Assistant. The one box approach of Tesla is obviously good and is being copied by others.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - this will be really helpful to others! Overall, I still prefer AC Coupled over DC Coupled as it's more akin to a modular approach. And it's great that you've been able to task Home Assistant to control/report everything.
We have a small 6kW ASHP. GE Hybrid + 2X9.5’s is just about enough for us and has worked OK (Not perfect) over winter. Our manual EPS has a 20A limit (i.e. Not much!) Essentially runs everything except the ASHP… So it’s not full backup. I like my GE set-up, it does what it needs to do, but would I go TESLA if I started again. Possibly if it was mounted outside… GE/Octopus Energy offers automation. Will Tesla offer better rates - like the EV’s - for Tesla Powerwall owners? Thank you for a great presentation.
Thanks. As it happens, I have a Patreon, where I talk about my own solar and battery setup and also my plans for the future, if that's of interest: www.patreon.com/GaryDoesSolar
Another great video, thanks Gary. I really like the idea of the integrated inverter (making this a true "All In One" - EPS management aside). One question I had though is how efficient the inverter will likely be for the average (say 6kwh) array in the UK, keeping in mind your recent video about oversizing. Is there a chance the inverter will be 'too' powerful/inefficient for the average array?
Hi Philip, cheers for the great feedback! Yeah, there are definitely pros and cons to having a built-in inverter (especially one that capable). But if battery prices continue to fall, maybe it becomes a non-issue to have an inverter more capable than it needs to be? I don't know...
I understand that the Powerwall 3 is for new systems or systems that do not have batteries. It is not compatible with existing Powerwall 2 systems. So if you want to add more battery storage and you already have a Powerwall 2 the best solution is to get another Powerwall 2 and stack them which is what I have done. That will give you 10kW charge and discharge rates which is pretty close to the Powerwall 3 and its 11.5kW rates plus I now have a 27kW battery storage. Probably save some money too.
@@paperklip3 Powerwall 3 are not available according to Bing until April or May but is says that expected prices will be between £12,000 and £18,000 which seems ridiculous to me as my Powerwall 2 I had installed in February cost me £6,773.73p including installation and a stacking kit. The company I use in the south of the UK is called JPS. They are exceptionally good and competitive.
Optimum design suggestions :- 1) separate inverter/charger from the battery - battery will probably out last the electronics and can be replaced/repairs separately. 2) use the modern 300AHr ( ~1KWHr ) LiFePO 'brick' cells in an accessible array so that a single weak/blown cell can be replaced. 3) see 2) these 'bricks' bring the battery cost down to < $100 per KWHr (delivered to Sydney AUS). 4) install in now a 2 box on the wall but at a much lower cost of ownership. my payback period was under 2 years.
Many thanks once again Gary, always gaining extra knowledge from your videos 😊 now I need a Givenergy All-in-one2 to come out with Tesla powerwall3 specs before my system is able to be installed!
You're most welcome, and I can imagine the engineering team at GivEnergy is working hard on that now! Will be interesting to see what they come up with! :-)
Agreed. I was surprised the Allinone doesn't have a hybrid/solar inverter. Given their links with Octopus a battery import/export I.e. virtual power plants makes sense for the masses. Most people just want a simple one box solution so it's great Tesla is showing how it should be done
i really like your videos and has helped me a lot to understand various concepts. I am planning to setup a solar at home and have been going through your videos; On the Tesla Powerwall i am keen and interested to have one but i have been comparing it to datasheet. (1) In the video you mentioned 6 parallel inputs supported but in the technical sheet i see MPPT : 3; (2) in the video you mentioned that upto 11kW of power output but i dont find this in any of the technical databasheet - also i am unable to compare it with any other battery provider because its not clearly mentioned anywhere. I hope i am looking at the correct values but i dont find them atleast. Can you help clarify?
Great to hear that my videos have been useful to you - thanks for that feedback. Ah, yes - this was new information for me also. In the US a PW3 will have 6 MPPTs but in other countries, like the UK, it only has 3. I explain why in my follow-up video to the PW3 being released tomorrow. Regarding the power output, here is the PW3 data sheet quoting that value (look for 'Maximum Continuous Discharge Power'): service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-3-with-Gateway-3-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-EC527BC7-4750-4425-BBC4-DB8C000339B3.html
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks for this looking forward to the explanation; on the power output unfortunately I only see the 11kW on the US site on the Europe site (Germany) I only the emergency power supply 4,6kW Fast emergency power switchover. On the US site it has 11kW with seamless backup transition. I was really considering this as an option but with these limitations I’m wondering how much it’s worth. Also any tentative timeline in terms of which month?
I have 4kWp solar and a Powerwall 2. My criteria are capacity, output and resilience. That said I imagine for everyone the initial outlay would be top of the list but that's not important right now. Reason for purchase - maximising solar and minimising future electricity bills, along with blackout management as I'm in an area where this is still a thing. I use about 6 kW/day annual average broken down as 7-10 winter, 2-3 summer (i.e. practically full utilisation) so the 13.6kW capacity is ideal for me though I'd never turn down more. The biggest issue is that managing power requirement is a learning process - no more than one big load at once, please!. It has to be said that output at 3.6kW is not brilliant if you want to charge an EV (7kW) modestly quickly. Minor issue for now as I charge elsewhere at low cost. The Tesla app is a doddle to use and I haven't yet felt the need to go onto a smart meter where I will find greater savings and more utilisation. That's coming, I'm on Octopus already so shouldn't be difficult. (And thanks for your videos on the meter topic)
having the inverter on the same unit as the battery may make it easier to install but I think it's an awful decision on the long run. After the inverter tends to be weaker component and the one that will need to be replaced sooner. There's a reason most batteries give you a 7-9 years warranty, solar panels +25 years but inverters usually 4-5y. And I know tesla will give the powerwall a 10year one but there's a lot of updates and paper work, most people will only get the "mandatory" 4 years
Good point - although I suspect the battery and inverter lifetimes will be about the same. From what I can see on the inside of the PW3, modules look to be easily replaceable in any case. For me, it's that the PW3 enables quicker and easier installs. Will be interesting to see the take up - and of course, the other manufacturers are following what Tesla does...
That was my thinking too. I am currently 75% through the Elon Musk book and there's plenty of insight into how he approaches design, manufacturing and operations from solar to cars to rockets. The book covers how he got into the solar business and how he personally got involved (and changed) the approach to installation - a major factor in the viability/profitability of that business. I therefore assume that this is driven by the install economics - however, I would not be surprised to see easy maintenance for later in the life-cycle - he's that type of thinker.
I have had my solar / Powerwall 2 installed about 3 years. Not sure if that makes me an early adopter or part of growing mass market. My view now is that I wish I had gone for two PW2s instead of one. Once you start switching more towards electricity and trying to make sure it as natural as possible then you realise that you need more and more storage. The household has two electric cars, a Mixergy tank and I tend to use battery power for the gardening. In winter 13.5 storage capacity is not enough. Output capacity is also important (one car draws 7.2) Ease of installation and weather protection are also important. I am not certain about the emergency supply also being linked to a static battery. I did have to have my Tesla PW2 replaced after two years because of a fault. So I am not sure putting all my eggs in one basket is the right option. So I have been looking at portable electric storage that can provide power during power cuts but also when on the move. I should also add that my car has vehicle to load so in theory access to a large battery. I don’t know enough to comment on NMC v LFT.
Thanks Gary and keep up the good work. I should have added that I use Octopus for off peak rates when needed. I also have invested in Ripple Energy’s wind and solar farms. My aim is to hopefully get rid of using gas without too much financial pain.
The integration of the solar inverter certainly simplifies the hardware installation but will it cause issues with the maximum length of solar DC cables? Solar inverters are often installed in the attic so cable runs are short but batteries of this size are generally installed outside or in a garage which could be a distance away?
Thinking about a PW 3 for Germany - role out here is ahead of us (and I operate 10 kwp PV and drive a MY): (i) is the US version with KI and if so what are its capabilitoes? (ii) can it be coupled with the MY and is the MY V2H capable?
Hi there, you said you had give energy battery installed into your house, which is what I was looking at, do you think the Tesla battery is a better option to your setup?
Yes I have GivEnergy in my house and it's performed extremely well since installation (just over a year ago). GivEnergy batteries are also very affordable compared to other manufacturers - especially Tesla, which is one of the most expensive brands. If money wasn't an issue, I'd go for Tesla I reckon, but I wouldn't install it inside the house if it's NMC chemistry. GivEnergy batteries are all LFP.
Yeah, I think the two can work together well (although the inverter in the PW3 would be redundant). Now, I'm hearing (but not confirmed yet) that there is a PW3 without the build-in inverter. To me, that's perfect for a microinverter solution....
@@GaryDoesSolar great intel as always Gary - I'm looking to get solar and battery ordered over the coming month, so might sit on my hands and wait for the TPW3 to come out!
*NOTES SINCE PUBLICATION* 1. There is now confirmation that the Tesla Powerwall 3 has LFP chemistry. See this video from a Tesla Engineer, talking about the product in detail: th-cam.com/video/pJBOXMATIcU/w-d-xo.html 2. I've been asked if I have received any compensation from Tesla for this video. I can confirm I have not received any compensation nor benefits from Tesla for this or any other videos I have made. And that I'll always mark videos as "Paid Promotion" should that ever be the case.
@@TheDark0rb Yeah, I had noticed this too. Here's a website that covered many of the points raised in that video: www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/tesla-confirms-key-powerwall-3-specs/
In Australia, there is a limit on the size of inverter at 15kw, but my powerwall 2 counts as 5kw, so I am hoping for approval for 20kw currently. The powerwall 3 would count as 11kw, so it's a problem.
Pretty sure that the Powerwall 3 comes with three solar inverter inputs (rather than the mentioned six). Still better than most inverters though! :) Oh, and thanks, great video. :)
According to www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/tesla-powerwall-3-review this is the official Tesla Powerwall 3 Datasheet: static1.squarespace.com/static/655ca2b0f826bb7b2b4dfe90/t/65e3263840ddfe5f5e3c746c/1709385276736/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_NA-EN.pdf. It confirms 6 MPPTs.
Hi Clark, thanks for your very kind words! Here's the data I was working from for the video: digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_Rev-1_03312023.pdf This is where I got the '6' from.
Capacity is to tiny for one Powerwall to cover a few days or provide any backup for say your electric car. This is why Car to House would be nice. Even with Solar Panels it would be nice to have enough for 3 days power on the housed.
But 54kw will cost you around 24k plus fitting . However I need the 3 to be available now so will be forced down another route . Thanks for clear info supplied in videos .
Yeah, might be a while before PW3 is available outside of the US. Hope you are able to get a great alternative battery solution though! Thanks for your kind words :-)
The Tesla powerwall is an excellent product. However the Enphase battery has advantages in certain situations. If you are using micro inverters or you want to incorporate a generator are two examples.
I would agree - it's certainly better to have all your equipment from the same manufacturer today, as it will have tighter integration. And there's a lot to be said of Enphase products in that respect.
Instead of large static battery capacity,, shouldn't we be leaving to integrate something like vehicle to home(V2H)? You already have a large battery that is sitting at home most of the day.
Another excellent, informative video - thanks Gary. I have a modular battery system which is plug and play and I was expecting to see the price of the battery modules drop from Feb 1st 2024 as the UK Government extended its energy saving materials scheme to include retro fit home batteries. However, the batteries for my system have remained the same - do you know why? Either the retailers are slow to extend the savings or perhaps I've misunderstood how that works.
So, the VAT element should disappear. There was always the danger that manufacturers simply held onto that themselves - this has happened in other markets (like sunscreen and baby products) - but I'm a firm believer in the free market, and it only takes another distributor to see the advantage for them, to pass on the VAT rebate... :-)
Gary you clearly haven't considered Sunsynk inverters and batteries. A lot less expensive than powerwall. Here are some basics. 1. Maximum batteries 138kw Lithium Iron Phosphate. 2. Can deliver 5kw Load 3. Has a stand alone "island" mode 4. Has two MMPT bit can be daisy chained and still be less expensive than Tesla. 5. Has as standard auxiliary feed for wind turbine / generator. 6. Has Agile buy sell function available in UK. Suggest you take a look this is a very seriously good system. I've had mine over a year. The same inverter tweaked / badge engineered, by a US company sells to doomsday "peppers" at a big premium.
I like their hardware but their software has been down most of the weekend. I missed out of the saving event this weekend as a result. And this isn’t the first time this has happened either. Their contact with the public when things go wrong is non existent too. Such a pity because the kit seems solid.
Yes, this weekend their server has been down. It's working now, they moved everything to a base in Europe and are still bedding in. I've had the system in place for a year on the original servers without problems. It's also worth pointing out it's also compatible with home automation systems like Amazon's, Google's et Al. Another feature is they have or are supplying an Eddie type water heat diverter which was to be included in the price.
For my 6.1kW solar panel system, my small 4.8kWh (4kWh usable) battery system is sufficient so that only 20% of my energy comes from the grid over the course of a year whilst more than half of what I generate is exported. With the falling cost of batteries and the doubling of electricity cost since my system was installed in July 2021 I could now justify getting a third battery to give me 6kW of usable battery storage but any bigger would simply be a waste of money. I suspect that is also the case for most UK households. In the winter there is insufficient solar generation to fully charge the batteries I have already and in the summer the batteries I have are more than sufficient.
The PW3 actually has larger volume @1.275 cu m PW2 @1.2075 cu m...this is assuming the dimensions you posted are correct. I'm leaning towards it still being NMC chemistry. Had they made the move to LFP I feel they would be advertising the fact. The extra weight and volume accounted for by all the extra it can do. It's a beautiful battery and all the specs you mention are awesome.......except for the spec that matters to me which is PRICE. My build is in it's infancy and my battery is a 3 year old telecom 48v 100ah server rack job which had only been cycled 100-150 times and I acquired for around USD 325. Together with my 4 x 310w second panels which cost me less than USD 40 a piece. I am hoping to expand this to another 3 of the batteries and another 8 panels.....so, yeah, the price point is an issue for me on even PW1. But they are nice and the video also nicely and well presented sir :)
Wow - great move, building your own battery system! Yeah, I'm hearing from lots of people on the NMC/LFP question - and it's about 50:50 both sides! Hopefully, we'll all hear definitely one way or the other soon! Thanks for the kind words about the video :-)
Quick question Gary, you said nearly 20kWh wasn't enough for your home, what tariff are you on? And what is your consumption throughout the day? I use on average 4kWh between 05:30 and 23:30, I use my 15kWh and charge it at 7.5p kWh and dump 10kWh everyday back on the grid at 15p kWh, plus any Solar bypasses the battery and also goes on the grid. What is your set up and how do you make it work? I would also recommend getting the 5kW inverter, helps with discharging during tea time 👍
Hi Bradley, so I should say that most days, 19kWh is enough to cover daily usage - it's just when we're washing and drying clothes, or doing a lot of cooking that we consumer more (which seems to happen more often than I'd prefer!) So, in addition to the batteries I have a 5kW GivEnergy hybrid inverter and I'm currently on the Agile Octopus tariff. It's very good pricing at the moment and has a pretty good export rate, which is great now that we're starting to see more sun!
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself. Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself. Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself. Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
Here in the UK the electricity grid is very reliable and the ability to power my home should the grid fail just isn't important to me, or I doubt to the mass market.
Granted, in many areas of the UK, the electricity supply is solid (great) but, unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many part other parts of the country (or the world). Agreed though - no need to invest in capability that is not required.
Hi Gary Another interesting video. I am still on the fence over solar/battery installation but my current thinking is leaning towards starting with a battery only setup using Octopus Agile tariff so I can take advantage of the very effective averaging of unit cost. I will be aiming for an average unit cost of 12-14p per kWh. As space in the house is limited and we have no convenient outbuildings I am leaning towards using 4-5 small modular Growatt (3.3kWh) batteries stacked in the loft as they are easy to lift up through the fairly small hatch. The inverter would go in the loft as well. The installation will be above the metercandceasilyvaccessible via existing cupboards more or less in direct line between the two. We average about 10.5 kWh per day at the moment and heat with a gas boiler which I have no plans to replace. I designed the CH system myself so the radiators are generously sized and it heats the house well at a flow temperature of 58C. I doubt a HP would save any money and would probably cost the same or more to run on present COP and servicing costs. On past experience I would expect the boiler to last at least another 10 years. Maybe if a 'direct HP' ( ie one that simply replaced the boiler without requiring a large intermediate c hot water cylinder) became available at a competitive cost it might be attractive. Likely to be a few years before that happens. I might add solar panels later as the extra installation costs of splitting the job will be quite small as most of this will be for the panels, linking cables, scaffolding etc. The new VAT free cost for the battery makes the split more attractive. Of course it might be better to wait for new battery technology but I think this could be another 4-5 years so opportunity cost will be higher. Mike
Hi Mike - thanks, as always, for your excellent insight and thinking. It's not easy eh? to determine the best course of action! So many factors at play... I'm always interested to hear how you intend to progress though :-)
Thanks Gary for this very informative video! Just wondering if you are familiar with ecoflwo powerocean? it seems like a close competitor to PW3 just by the looks of their specs- 5kwh from start, expandable to 45kwh, 10kw output, backup mode supported, and also LFP battery! The battery chemistry would be on top of my consideration, if I were about to instill this big chuck of battery in my house, I'd like them to be as safe as possible. Unfortunately there is not much info available about this brand...Will keep following your channel, keep up the good work!
You're very welcome - thanks for the great feedback! The video seems to be getting some traction and generating a lot of commentary - fab! Now, I'd always thought of EcoFlow as portable power units, but I just searched for the PowerOcean, and it looks to be very similar! I'll dig into the specs and prices a bit more... thanks for highlighting! :-)
Unfortunately the big miss for me is no three phase support. It's not surprising given Tesla's main market is North America, but in countries like Australia where three phase is common, not being able to generate three phase to keep the solar array going means backup protection is limited.
I have just put my planning permission in for our heat pump. I will need another battery. That will take me to 12.8 kWh. Ours are in our loft. So we have 4x 3.2 kWh batteries as they can be lifted into the loft. As a side note, I am trying to find a way to optimise the heat pump with Agile. Agile would still seem to be better than Cosy.
Capacity i do agree 10kwh is minimum, we currently have 9.6kwh and looking to increase it to about 13.4 Also long lifespan is important for us since we have no plans on leaving the house we are currently living in, as well as the ability to be blackout proof and offgrid compatible Also a thought on the extra weight of the powerwall 3 over the 2, how much extra weight would having an inbuilt solar inverter as well as the extra water "resistant" protection add? If it didnt have those extra additions then the weight could be a tell tail sign of its chemistry
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Do you have (or are you thinking of getting) a heat pump? That's what's making me think a larger battery is going to helpful - especially over the winter months when there's not a lot of sun around...
@@GaryDoesSolar just edited my original comment to talk about the weight as well. Yes we will be getting a heat pump hot water maybe in the next 12 months. We will leave it then for a year or two to gather data and we may decide on the getting a secondary offgrid solar system installed on our garage to help during Winter plus can keep the option of disconnecting completely from the Grid if required/wanting Ps. We live in Australia
@@GaryDoesSolar🤞, you can be surprised, in winter we can get days that even a 20-30kw system produces less then 10kwh, even for myself last week we had a 35°c day but was overcast and that cut our normal production in half, it's what got me thinking about larger battery as ot was a hot day so needed AC but we started using battery capacity probably 3-4 hours earlier then expected. That extra breathing space is what we want, but will gather more data before making a rash decision as it isn't exactly a cheap exercise
A very powerful set of capabiltiies and features that should appeal to a lot of home owners. One thing you didn’t cover in detail is local API’s for management. My understanding is that the Powerwall is a comparatively closed eco system so if you want to do your own management its not straight forward. I know there’s a “Tesla premium”, but looking just now I’ve seen it suggested that the PW3 will be £12,000-18,000 fitted. Compared to say a GivEnergy All-in-one with the same 13.5kW storage, its around £6,500 + (say) £1,000 solar inverter + fitting cost. That’s quite a substantial difference in price …
Yeah, that’s a huge difference in price. Agreed, there’s not much in the way of standardisation with solar and battery equipment at the moment. So it’s better to keep everything with the same manufacturer. This allows better system control and data management.
Google search indicates the installation of a power wall 3 in the UK is ave £15,000. You get a 10 year warranty. You then have to pay for charging it, cheap rate or installation cost of solar.... And then after 10 years you may need to buy a new one, depending how careful you are with charge discharge cycles ..... Financially not sure this makes sense ....
There's always a premium for brand new products from the premium brands, but the competition will follow very soon, and all this will help bring prices down... :-)
With any large financial decision, you need to do your own situational man maths. Also, factor in how long you plan to be in your current home etc. Batteries are movable, but you'll pay each time of course.
I have 2 Powerwall 2s and 30 panels. The system cost was a bit under 8 times my annual power bill. 85% of the year it powers my house entirely, plus sends power to the grid, which I get credit for. That means in 8 years I'll be free and clear and at ten years the Powerwall are warrantied to produce at least 70% of original capability. At the point they won't power everything, I'll just do it again. Obviously, I don't live in the UK though.
I can't make the numbers work right now either, no matter how much I'd like to. If all the kit were 25% cheaper, that's the tipping point. Like Gary says, maybe many competitors will adopt the PW3 as the cookie-cutter / de-facto standard and prices will drop. Who knows, maybe Sodium will come along in a couple years.
I can get an almost brand new, EV battery, 45 KWh, for £5,000. Would it be possible to use that for home storage? It's just so much cheaper. Also any places to research thermal storage for the home?
I can’t relate to most of the requirements you state in your video. Since the last blackout happened so long ago that I can’t even remember it, it makes no sense to overpay for such a big battery. The economically best home battery dimension is a capacity that covers your consumption over night and is basically fully discharged, when the sun starts to take over, again. Having a full back-up battery only makes sense in countries, where blackouts are common.
There seem to be counter indicating features on the PW3 to suggest which chemistry. The higher power output suggests MNC but the lack of positive cooling suggests LFP. But on cost alone you would expect Tesla to go for LFP. But we have to remember that many americans value more power over everything, so Tesla may have opted for MNC.
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One absolutely necessary feature for me of the next generation of home battery storage is that it can make use of and integrate people’s current battery storage no matter what the make. Most who have battery storage have paid a lot of money to buy it and have it installed. It is very short sighted for any battery producer not to make it possible to use what households already have. It would not be very environmentally friendly to throw away 4 perfectly good batteries, although I would love to get a Tesla Powerwall 3.
That's a really good point, Ian. There's no standardisation yet. I am heavily involved in this with my day job in the mobile industry, and I can totally endorse the view that standardisation opens up human progress a lot more than innovation alone.... Let's see what happens over time :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience it will be a 3rd party who invent some kind of ‘integration box/system’. That will then force the big companies to follow suit. (a bit like the Tesla car chargers initially being exclusive to Tesla cars). I hope the innovator makes their money before the big boys step in 😉
@@GaryDoesSolar The other innovation I am waiting for is a reliable, affordable domestic wind generator. Living in Wales we have wind more often than sun. I realise it would never produce as much power as my solar but it would supplement.
@@iananderson2677 Yeah, current turbines and expensive, noisy and not-so-reliable. Surely this is a chance for someone (Dyson?) to come in a solve? 🙂
From a control system point of view there's an incompatibility of having two independent controllers trying to set the grid drain to zero. Even running a Zappi or Eddi load for example with an independent solar hybrid inverter plus battery has issues with deciding when there's a surplus to supply the load and NOT drain the battery which will be independently trying to supply it when the solar surplus drops. You have to employ techniques like setting an export threshold before loading etc. Having two inverters with batteries acting independently, both capable of charging and discharging could lead to some interesting bistable latching effects with one supplying or draining the other.
I know Huawei can use IEEE comms to enable cascading hybrid inverters where one is set to master and the other slave. If it's just the battery capacity to be added the battery management can cascade battery stacks but that's under the one manufacturer.
If you had an existing AC coupled battery and wanted to add an additional hybrid inverter and battery etc that couldn't talk to each other it may be possible to set an export threshold on one or slow its response time so the other takes the lead possibly, although it's a compromise and certain load patterns may still cause issues.
Agreed. The Powerwall 3 is the best battery out there. For most homes, you can backup the entire home without the need for load management. The integration of a power control system is also huge and solves a problem going back to the original gateway.
Yeah, from what I hear, Powerwalls are the kinds of battery that are installed then just... work :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar BUY a BYD and plug it in to the House
can`t do that with a tesla yet BUY a Tesla Model 3 $50.000 + powerwall
$20.000 =$70.000 BYD $50.000 plug into House save $20.000 car cost
$30.000 Tell me if I'm Wrong
You hit the nail on the head for me when you mentioned battery chemistry. Like you, getting LFP for my panels is hugely important from safety and longevity/ value for money perspective. In addition, I would like to have the flexibility of not discharging to grid automatically.
Yeah, being able to control your setup in the way that you'd like is key! It's good to see more and more manufacturers building in that capability (through mobile apps, software APIs and the like).
@@GaryDoesSolar Tesla is playing catchup. Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra DESTROYS Tesla and is available TODAY with all the features you mentioned and MUCH MORE, at a FRACTION OF THE COST of the Tesla Powerwall 3.
@@TheNature101Ecoflow is a hobby toy! That product will not stand the test of time. Mine is already broken and customer service is terrible.
We have had a Tesla powerwall 2 battery for 3 years now. Even though we are still grid tied it keeps us virtually offgrid. It can run the whole house easily and cuts in straight away if the grid goes down. It is just like the whole house is on a UPS. It is still at full capacity and hasnt degraded at all accorrding to the app Netzero. We had solar installed for one year before we got the battery waiting for the price to go down but it didn't $16,500 NZD installed is a big amount but we have never regretted it since we made that jump to a powerwall 2. We have 22 panels ( 6.5kw) feeding it and they handle it np. The TOU (time of use) config built into it you can adjust yourself to the peak and offpeak power times is great! It is one purchase we have never regretted !!
Thanks for sharing this Steve! Sounds like you're having a great experience with the Powerwall. Will be very helpful to others looking at Tesla products! :-)
So you'll recoup the outlay in 20 years? And then may require a new battery? Makes no sense to me.
@@robertfonovic3551 Where do you get your '20 years' figure from?
I have 3x Powerwall 2’s stacked as a full house backup. They are incredible and we don’t even realize when we have a power outage unless I check the Tesla notifications on my phone. System was sized with solar to allow for multi-day outages in Texas summers and goodness it was expensive but I swear by it now. Best zillion $$ ever spent 😂
Brilliant. Just brilliant :-)
I have a Powerwall 3 , 1 and a half months old. So far so good.
That's great to hear! :-) Do you have any solar panels connected to it as well?
@@GaryDoesSolar yes, it’s a complete Tesla system. It’s only 16 panels but it’s enough for my wife and I. Not connected to the grid yet, so I can’t send my excess back, but that should be a month away.
Price?
@@paperklip3 it actually fell from when I started the process in late 2022. I paid 30k for more panels than the original plan. After rebates it should run about 16k.
@@billwatkins8227 ouch!!!
Thanks for a great video. I am in the US and considering a Powerwall. I have a proposal from the company. One frustrating thing about the proposal is that they have positioned it on the outside of the house, when I wanted it in my cellar, as shown in many of their promotional materials. When I asked why they couldn’t put it in the cellar, they said that they could if I was willing to spend an extra $8,000 for them to build a fireproof room. None of the pictures include this little item, but they said that the US electrical code requires it! Now I have to decide whether I want them in a less ideal location or spend big bucks. It almost seems like an intentional omission!
Wow - maybe that's why there's a lot of PW2 going for a good price in the UK and Europe at the moment. We're less stringent on the fire regulations?
When I got my PW 2s it led to a huge proliferation of electrical panels on the side of my house even though I had them in the garage. The PW3 will reduce the amount of extra panels as you can see in the video. So maybe just put the oowerwalls by the meter and call it even.
I think if the PW3 had LFP chemistry, it would be promoted in the marketing. My bet is that the chemistry hasn’t changed. It also has more hardware on board which adds to the weight.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. I'm hoping that someone will be able to confirm one way or the other soon... And if it's NMC, it's actually a great chance for Tesla competitors to take advantage.... (hard to take on Tesla at anything these days!)
I disagree. Even for their cars Tesla doesn't talk about battery chemistry.
@@pauld3327 That may be true, but people are becoming more and more informed and want to know...
@@pauld3327I disagree. It’s well known that recent standard range models have LFP chemistry. The advice regrading charging strategy is also different with these models, i.e. it’s OK to charge to 100%.
Its well know what chemistry is used in the car.@@pauld3327
I live on my sailboat, I bought an used NiFe batteribank. It will last me the rest of my life. My yearly cost of living is around $3500 including everything, even Starlink internet and I won't have any future battery cost's. It was my life's smartest move, moving onboard, I deliver food for one month a year on my Honda CT 125, and have a 11 month vacation fishing and sailing!
Well, it sounds like you've worked out a great life for yourself. And I love the fact that you're able to conduct any business you need to do from wherever you happen to be via StarLink - that tech amazes me every day! I think you're an inspiration to others (especially those who feel they're on a treadwheel!)
@@GaryDoesSolar
My low living cost's is because I've opted out of relationships. Bring a woman onboard and the cost's goes sky high.
Excellent video, here in the US we can go with Enphase Micro Inverters like IQ8 series that will run and produce power for your home from solar panels during the day and you can run a smaller battery if you want to balance load etc. The Tesla Powerwall 3 Is great but if you have an EV your 60 to 80 kWh battery sitting outside is a wasted very large capacity LFP storage solution. We need to quickly see more availability and implementation of that resource as we electrify everything. Much better utilization of you capital I believe.
Good point! And thanks for the kind words about the video :-)
I've had the Sungrow GSR-SBR 12.8 KWh battery connected to a 10kW solar system for a year now and it works perfectly. It's usually charged by 10am and gives us all the power we need after sunset without drawing from the grid. Running the large aircon at night for more than an hour depletes it though.
Sounds like a good setup. I think this is going to be a problem for many people though - having a home battery large enough to run AC or a heat pump for a long period of time during the day/night.
Yes. On dome cold days my ground source heat pump uses up to 50kwh running from 5am to 6pm. You would need a huge battery to store enough cheap rate overnight electricity to run the heat pump during the day. On the other hand many EVs now have 80kwh batteries so it is possible, we just need a chemistry that does n ot degrade over decades of operation.@@GaryDoesSolar
Bahahaha. One hr and its flat. FFS. Just by 3 more batteries. Lol
It will be interesting to see the differences from an installers point of view as our UK home electric infrastructure is quite different to the USA in a lot of ways. We fit Powerwall 2 a lot and it’s a great product, I doubt Powerwall 3 will be coming to the UK any time soon. I had a meeting with Tesla Energy last week and they are really pushing Powerwall 2 in the UK at the moment. Will be interesting to see what design changes they will need to make to the gateway/backup side before they can roll it out here…
Yeah, Tesla is certainly US-centric in their approach to the market (I can't blame them as it's a huge market) but I agree - it would be good to see what they're able to do with UK installations. Hopefully, they're looking at that!
I have a 22kWh Sonnen Batterie with a SonnenProtect. One important feature of that German battery is the 10,000 cycles warranty. Currently I am using it at average 1 cycle per day, when the electricity price spread in a day is larger, I use 2 cycles per day, as I make a bit of extra money with the system. The Protect function is also important for me, because in times of crisis and a grid disruption, it allows me to keep on using the system for about 7 to 8 months per year.
That's a lot of cycles! Way more than the typical 6,000 for most batteries. Cool.
I much prefer the idea of separate items to make up an ESS. This not only allows picking & mixing the best items between manufacturers but also for me, having a single unit that charges, inverts and is a battery means if any one of the those components go down the whole unit fails. I do accept however that most people cannot do the work themselves so it's a slightly mute point if your not a handyman.
Agreed - there's a lot to be said for modularity - and even more if it's across different manufacturers!
Thank you Gary. I would suggest that THE most important feature for the mass market would be the ability to "set and forget". The thing stopping me from implementing a system is the sheer complexity of management involved. My partner is a technophobe and would just expect it to work with no input from themselves. I've been monitoring the Givenergy battery owners forum on FB and it feels that you need to be very hands on just to keep the system ticking over. That's fine for me but when I die my partner would be badly exposed.
I totally agree, and I'm hoping I managed to get that point across in the video - in the early days, it's fine to take an interest in how things work, but actually, where we want to get to is an installation simply reporting if there is anything going wrong with it, and keeping quiet the rest of the time...
Thank you for your efforts in getting to that point. I just saw the video as suggesting that capacity was the most important factor. I'm not sure if any order was intended in the features mentioned. Anyway, when it just becomes a once a year system check, and the system delivering everything required at the cheapest rates - then we'll be there.
I have had a Tesla power wall system including solar input and have left it to get on with it. After initial setup It has managed to work out when to charge and how much as well as handling export when there is excess solar. The only help it needs at the moment is to tell it what the price charged and paid by my supplier is when it changes. It even manages the weather. The only thing it doesn't know is when I do something completely different with energy usage. (its no good with variable pricing)
Don't forget that many forums are written by enthusiasts and fiddlers who like to play just like car forums where people mess with their cars (I am one of both at heart) Many people will be happy with the default settings. Just because you can push buttons doesn't mean you have to.
@@vicvalliant1092 Thank you. I'll sign up to the owners forum once it gets going in the UK and see if it is less complicated than Givenergy
I have a PW2 and you are right it is hands on during an extended outage. The onboard solar inverter should however make it so I wouldn’t need to do anything at all. All of my fiddling is usually to avoid getting into a black start situation with PW2, but since the PW3 can charge straight off solar without energizing the rest of the house in principle, it should be able to rescue itself. It’s definitely what I’d be looking at if I wanted a battery for a rental or an elderly parent.
I liked your take on the a Tesla PW3. I’m always keen on one more consideration and that’s PRICE. 😉. You showed a picture of the blue prismatic cells that you suspected were being used. I like these because of price. I gather the PW3 is costing GBP6000 plus installation etc. have spent about the same on 48 prismatic cells and an 11.2 Kw inverter from China. This DIY setup lets me run off grid all the time - in Australia where we do get some weeks with clouds and poor sunlight. I know most people will not want to run off grid, but it lets you see the huge margins that must be paid to buy ready made systems.
Hi Sandy, yeah the cells were the first images I came across in fact (just to show the shape). I really like your setup - and it sounds like it's working really well for you! :-)
Hi Sandy. I'm hoping to put together a DIY solar set-up (ideally to store thermally until the winter, but that's another story.) You recommend any good sources of information on getting started? Sites, channels, forums? Also, you know anything about using EV batteries for home storage? I can get a 45 kWh, almost brand-new EV battery, for about 5K, which blows any other source I can see out of the water. Going on a bit. Be really grateful for any advice, links. Thanks. Michael.
THE drawback of the Tesla Power Wall is that it cannot be obtained without solar. I frankly DO NOT WANT roof-mounted solar, I want a whole-home battery that steps in during the fairly rare electrical outages in my area.
Is that still the case? I know they were doing that for a while, but I know in the UK, it's possible to buy one without solar. Should be the same in other countries...
There were many articles last fall stating you can now buy it without solar.
It has been a while since I checked. When last I did, one could not buy separate from solar. Will have to recheck...it may be time to sign the check...
I have an appointment with Tesla to come by my San Francisco house to add the PW3 to my Enphase/LG panels I had for 5 years. It wasn't before as thre was a PW shortage. Awesome I pay under $10/month for my electric bill! Want to get rid of my $40/month gas bill to go 100% electric!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls
I have a Growatt system with 5kW hybrid inverter and 2x 6.5kWh wall mounted batteries (11.7kWh usable). A single battery was marginal for my daily usage. The second battery allows for more peak rate export to Octopus Flux and powering aircon in the summer. The Growatt inverter is frustratingly capped at 3kW output from battery even though the pair of batteries are capable of 6kW.
Powerwall 3 looks like an excellent option but I suspect it would cost several times more than what I have. As an engineer I like the modularity of my system and enjoy tweaking the settings to play with different import/export strategies. For the average non-technical user this would be a deal-breaker and the Tesla solution would be much more attractive.
I agree, Matt. And I'd like there to be more standardisation across manufacturers as well. I'm sure it'll come eventually. It's interesting times in the home solar and battery world! :-)
Tesla is mostly hype.
Thank you @GaryDoesSolar for the great videos. Spoke to an electrician today about an AIO quote. During our discussion about the PW3, he confirmed that it uses LFP chemistry. He also showed me a screenshot he took from the technical plate taken during the presentation day in Birmingham.
Ah brilliant - thanks for letting me know!
The “best” features depend on how your local utility works really. If you pay more at certain times of day, the battery can add value by charging at low periods and releasing energy at high. In my area, utilities are starting to charge more for peak power (kW) .. so peak shaving is where I would benefit the most.
I agree, and hopefully more and more energy providers will start offering such "time of use" tariffs to their customers, just like Octopus Energy does in the UK and other countries.
I've been looking at options for home. We typically use 11-13Kwh a day, excluding EV charging (11kwh typical) so a single Power Wall or GE AIO would work. But if I did go for it'd want to replace my gas boiler and I've estimated we'd need up to 25kwh on a cold winter day. It's not realistic finalcially to add 2 more units, but 1 more certainly. I need to keep an eye on GE for when they have stacking available.
Another super useful video! Thanks!
Cheers, and I guess as we electrify more and more in the home, we're all going to need greater battery capacity - I'm just happy to see that battery technology is getting better and better all the time to support that (especially with the pricing!) Thanks for the kind words about the video! :-)
I've been living with 2 Powerwalls for several years now (I think they are powerwall 2's). Anyway, 27kwh is enough to run our house off grid 24 hours no problem AS LONG AS the HVAC system isn't running. During the hottest and the coldest months when our home's HVAC runs a lot, the powerwalls only last a few hours once the sun goes down. We have a large home, around 6,000 sq/ft of living space, with 2 furnances, 2 A/C's, and several refrigerators/freezers. So, our usage is high.
Overall, we love the Powerwalls and they have been an awesome upgrade to our home. I just wish I could afford 5 or 6 of them! It's all about battery prices for these, just like EVs
Thanks for sharing this, Jason - I think it will be useful to many people who are trying to understand what the experience will be like with a home battery - including a Tesla Powerwall setup. Yeah, pricing is always an issue, but pricing continues to drop over time, so such products will soon be more affordable to many :-)
I regularly watch your channel. It is clearly one of the most useful home-solar YT channels! I live in Reno, NV. I am seriously interested in an Octopus-like service provider. Please consider doing research and a video on such service options in the US. Thanks.
Thanks - great to hear feedback like this :-) I'd love to see if energy providers across the world follow in Octopus Energy's footsteps... Octopus Energy actually licence out their 'Kraken' platform to other energy providers - so they can quickly offer smart tariffs... Might come quicker than you think!
Great video. One additional benefit of PW 3 is that it works seamlessly with Cybertruck (CT). CT can be used as a huge battery backup. Not sure when CT will come to UK but I am considering using a switch to use my CT as a battery backup during power outage, which is rare here in KS. Of course if you buy a foundation series CT this comes with the unit.
Crikey! I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know. The world is changing! :-)
There’s more info on V2H on the CT page on Tesla website, this is one reason why as an installer we are recommending the Tesla Gen 3 charger as a starting point - plus Gen 3 is now also doing charge on solar - then add battery etc as you go.
Gen 3 charger plus Gateway 2 will be able to offer V2H same as CT at a later date via other Tesla vehicles (later in 24/25) the inverter in cars is being changed to do bidirectional and so offer backup from the vehicle to a home that’s isolated from the grid.
I suspect that V2G will also be possible when the standards for U.K. are set but that’s probably 18mon-2yrs away.
PW3 will be available as an inverter or non inverter versions too so extending the capacity will be cheaper.
Plus It’ll also be available as a non backup unit if I recall correctly the conversation with the Tesla team meaning you don’t have to pay for the backup gateway if you don’t want it, again saving probably £1k off installation
Our humble Nissan Leaf does too..
I know a guy who used to charge his ZOE at Pod Point at Tesco, drive home, cook his tea then dump the rest to Grid for cash then go back to Tesco for more..
2 full Batteries a day sold - no wonder Tesco stopped free charging. The cheeky beggar was even doing it when it reduced to 15mins, jumping out every 15mins to restart the free charge timer. Go home and top up his pension!!
And they want to get rid of CHADEMO!!
So no need to line Elon's greasy pockets for bi direction charging and backup.
@@whlphil Thanks for all this extra detail! 🙂
@@Goodkiwibloke doesn’t matter the CT inverter that allows those features will be incorporated into rest of vehicles in due course so likely within 1-2 years bidirectional will be available on all. This was disclosed on a video with Sandy Munro by either Lars Moravian or Drew Baglino can’t remember which one
Agreed with respect to LFP.
I have a home made backup using LFP batteries and I will not have an NMC battery in my house. Tesla have arguably the best understanding of NMC, and mostly fabulous software but I still don’t want NMC.
And of course an extra benefit is that LFP is also good for more cycles.
Agreed. Although it's heartening to hear that Tesla has shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date, and I've not heard anything about fires etc. I'm with you though - I prefer LFP in the home over NMC.
Meanwhile, there are several new studies coming out that show an LFP battery is substantially more dangerous than a NMC lithium battery. 😂😂😂
@@boblatkey7160What sources do you have for this, Bob? I’ll take a look…
@@GaryDoesSolar PV Magazine
In a new paper, researchers from the University of Sheffield, Imperial College London, and the University of St Andrews in the United Kingdom have conducted a detailed meta-analysis of 60 papers to investigate the most influential battery parameters and the probable off-gas characteristics to determine what kind of battery would be least hazardous.
They have found that while NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, but that LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms.
@@boblatkey7160 Thanks - I'll read the paper if I can find it...
Gary, a quick follow-up on my previous comment... Rocky is as dry as an old biscuit as far as his delivery is concerned. But he gets all the facts right and gives some real insights into different products and their inbuilt capabilities. For example, his review of the new Tesla PW3 is great - he explains why the solar inverter is a whopping 20KW - and his analogy regarding their DC expansion units is really good... think of it as a 'bigger petrol tank', with the same size motor! Brilliant!!
Cheers Mick
Another first rate video, I'm in the planning stages of a solar/storage project and consider your content essential viewing! I've had an ASHP system for coming up to 5 years in my 1980's built house and would be happy to share my data/experience 👍
Thank you! Wow - 5 years experience with ASHP! That's great. I may come back to you on that when I eventually get round to make a video on that topic!
FYI the Prismatic batteries are typically ~300Ah and store about 1 KWh. so 48 cells can deliver about 48KWh vs 13.6KWh for a Tesla 2 or 3. (I have 3 banks each are 16 Cells in series.)
Good insight - thank you for sharing with me!
Thank you. Your videos are so informative. I now have 2 powerwall2, ashp, 3kw solar,Tesla model3 coming Saturday.. . All are great investments.. Keep up the good work👍
Cheers Colin - wow, you're really going for it! Well ahead of me - I'm only just thinking about what kind of heat pump to get. I can't quite afford an EV yet, but hopefully later this year. Good luck with the Model 3 and all the best! :-)
We have a Samsung ashp..house is a new build. No app to control which is a shame... The filters block periodically... If I had a choice I would have had a Valliant... Good luck..
@@colinmoney633 Thanks for this information, Colin. Yeah, I'll need to start researching ASHP in earnest soon...
Enjoy your computer-on-wheels!
I believe the powerwall 3 has separate outputs for loads that are battery backed during a power cut and normal on-grid loads, so you can ensure only critical circuits stay up in the event of a power outage.
Now, that sounds pretty cool!
The one small detail missing is, how much do they cost compared to the competition?
I try not to talk about actual prices in my videos as it quickly dates them (not least because prices are falling over time). There is usually a premium to pay for good brands and recently launched products, but in time even that dissipates 👍🏻
I currently have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and love the features, being able to use solar to charge if a powercut is ongoing. Like you I really want a 2nd but currently looking at the DNO and believe I will need 3 phase as i also have 8 kWh solar and zappi.
Yeah, the DNO factor is a real issue these days!
Hello Gary. I am one of the first video's audience. Went concentrating on other stuff. Studies. Good to know you keep on going. I love your content.
Thank you! Sorry this video took a few weeks to get done. My day job got in the way (was on a business trip) 😀👍🏻
No worries. I was just checking the videos I missed from your channel, in the last months. I was busy studying. Thank you again, Gary. I will keep up.
Your channel is underrated and sure deserves more views and subs.@@GaryDoesSolar
@@youxkio Cheers. And yeah, it's growing slowly... It's hard to get traction on TH-cam but I'm going to keep producing videos, and hopefully one day, it'll get broader exposure... 🙂
Don't give up. Keep creating.
More solar-related topics include solar cell (junction) composites, new scientific discoveries, and testing.
Corporations that work on the different processes of installation, maintenance, and production of solar panels [LinkedIN].
Euro vs Chinese panels [or others].
Development of solar deployment in other countries and their latest results on mitigating energy governmental budget and state savings/inflation.
Many other subtopics are related to solar transition. All in your free time of course. Happy days.
@@GaryDoesSolar
Hi I agree Octopus are a great energy supplier but with one caveat they do not have a low night time energy tariff for someone wanting to have battery storage only, that is no Solar input or having a EV charger.
I'm hoping that will come in time...
I have a battery and storage heaters as the main electricity grid consumers. The tariffs that used to be suitable have become EV owner only! Last year I believe the government forced the energy companies to change their Economy 7 tariffs so the daytime rate was lowered, but what they also did is raise the overnight rate by a similar amount. So for example 6p/kw raised 10p so that 46p daytime could be 36p. It’s a massive ~260% increase in night rate! I’m currently on Octopus Agile but would prefer Octopus Go for its predictable overnight rate.
Are there any traditional cheap rate Economy 7 supplier available?
I just had 2 PW3s and Solar 7.25 kWh consisting of 18 panels installed at my home, I have no experience with other systems but the Tesla system is totally seamless. The installers said that the batteries are LFP but they may also be guessing.
I am hooked to the grid and the solar / battery is working but am waiting for the city to inspect and approve exporting to the grid which is scheduled for next Wednesday.The local utility provides for credit 1 to 1 for export and pays any surplus once a year.
I hear the talk about how BEV cars are going to cause issues on the grid but IMHO the amount of people installing Solar/batteries should more than offset and extra loads
Hi James, thanks for sharing this. Of all the home battery manufacturers, Tesla seems to be the only one that provides a "fire and forget" product - which of course is a key requirement for the mass market.
Gary, another great video! Not sure if you've ever seen any of "Rocky Broad Solar" videos, but if you get the chance, check some of them out. I'm from Oz, and you're a pom (Scottish ??), so getting used to his accent is a challenge. But he has no BS and no ads, and he really digs deep into the specs and functionality of different batteries, etc.
Keep up the great content, and thanks for simplifying all things solar.
Cheers, Mick
I have a 10kw solar system with 10.5kw battery, south/east/west facing (UK). Over winter, October to March we struggle to fill the battery capacity with solar but fill it up at cheap rates at night which will get most through to the next nightly slot. We are heavy electric users over winter mainly due to heat pump providing heat and water but also the sewage pump and MVHR system constantly running, plus the oven and hobs are also electric.
I have a V2L car I plug into our hybrid system and that supplements the house battery, getting us through to the cheap rates on cloudy days when the house batteries aren't enough. This is the best set-up IMO. You don't need more than 10kw house battery. Better investing in a hybrid inverter with off grid capacity and a V2L car so you can access that huge battery capacity sitting on the drive. From April to September especially on sunny days the house batteries fill up quickly and you don't need more capacity than 10kw. Selling back to the grid gives minimum returns currently. With a hybrid off/on grid system you can also avoid power cut issues which affects standard solar inverters.
Hi Adam, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree, there is a lot of value in have a very large battery present for a fair percentage of the time, backed up by a (as you suggest) 10kWh battery :-)
I ordered my second Powerwall 2 about a month ago, so the title certainly grabbed my attention!
I've had the PW2 for 3½ years. I am whatever you call the opposite of a Tesla fanboi, and wouldn't drive one of their latter-day Mondeos for a big clock. However I had to accept that, in 2020, the PW2 was head and shoulders above the competition for my requirements & priorities, which closely match the ones you outline in this vid. Performance has been flawless - looking outside and realising that all the neighbours had a powercut was childishly thrilling - and the app is a masterclass in how these things should be done.
I guess I'm left wondering whether to hang on for the PW3 to become available, or pounce on the PW2 the minute the DNO authorises the connection. Probably the latter…
Thanks for a great vid.
Cheers Mark. Yeah, Elon Musk is not everyone's cup of tea, but his companies do design great products that the rest of the market follow closely. The Powerwall 2 is not only iconic, but it's supremely robust. I've heard from many installers that it's "install and forget" - for me, that's one of the greatest statements you could ever make about an energy management solution :-) I don't think you can go wrong continuing with the PW2 - especially as the pricing is looking really good in Europe at the moment!
I have a Powerwall 2. Contacted Tesla about getting a Powerwall 3 but was told the two are not compatible (I suppose because the 3 has a built in inverter). They offered me a PW2. I asked if the price of the PW2 was lower and they said it was the same. Don't know if I would pay the same money for the inferior product. The advantages of PW3 are way more than the built in inverter which I don't need. Hopefully, they will come up with a policy that helps people in our boat like trading in a PW2 for a PW3 or selling the PW2 at the discount it needs compared to the PW3 or figuring out a way to make them compatible.
@@mariomenezes1153 Agreed. Thanks for sharing your research.
@@markiliffwhat makes you not want to buy one of the most affordable, low maintenance, fastest acceleration, safest vehicles? Just because Elon hurts your feelings? A good product is a good product regardless of who is behind it, my guess is that you are brainwashed by mainstream media as they only spout negativity towards Tesla and Elon. Best not to listen to them.
Ac start-up matters, but a dryer can stay on a very high consumption for a long time, because of its heater. Start-up issues usually occur when an inductive load is turned on.
True.
Another great video, Gary 😘. But do tell us more about your Tesla Energy "coming soon to the UK" news.
Thanks for the great feedback! I’ve not heard any more concrete news on that yet, but here’s an article I found on LinkedIn which might shed some light: www.linkedin.com/pulse/tesla-really-entering-gb-electricity-market-dallington-energy
Gary, quick question. As the Tesla PW3 has the string inverter contained within its package, does that mean that the battery element is charged directly from the solar in DC and therefore only needs to convert to AC once (when it puts power into the house or the grid), vice a AC coupled battery that will need to to a DC/AC conversion 3 times? If so, does that mean that the power loss is reduced from roughly 10% to only 3% - which takes into account the home efficiency rating you quoted?
That's my understanding, yes.
Gary, thanks for Vid. I have 38 Enphase solar panels and 2 X Tesla Power wall batteries at home. But the discharge is a problem as we have a Tesla model Y and would like to get a second EV soon. The discharge of the battery is a disappointment as we often need 14 to 17 Kwh when we are charging the car and at home using appliances. Can you link powerwall 3 to a sting of powerwall 2 batteries?
You’re most welcome - thanks for watching! 😊 Now, is there a way to wire your EV charger(s) so that your Powerwalls don’t see their usage (via the CT Clamps)? That is the key, I think, but an electrician will know better than I do… I’ve been told that with an up-coming software update, the PW3 will become compatible with PW2 👍🏻
RE: EPS - it took me some lengthy research and queries with multiple installers to finally confirm that NOT ALL systems with EPS are capable of charging a battery from the solar panels when the grid supply is interrupted. So it is possible to spend a few £thousands and be out of electricity on a sunny day :p
The setup I settled for uses an inverter from Growatt, 18 panels connected as two strings (E-W) and a single 2nd generation Powerwall. When the zombie apocalypse comes this should still run for as long as there is sunlight or battery reserves. :)
Agreed - and it just shows that meticulous research is still the key today. It's a fair assumption that people would make about solar topping up batteries during a power outage, but as you say, in many cases a wrong one.
In UK our electricity grid is very stable it's very rare we have power cuts. If needs be I can run extension lead from my inverter . For me not worth paying alot more for that feature
@@AdrianMcDaid how many pandemics did you foresee in 2018? ;)
@@NunoLima1337 hi, what does that got to do with my eleckly going off? Still can run power if stuck untill battery goes flat and if it's between November to Feb I'm hardly producing any solar power.
Yeah my Givenergy has a 3kw off grid output, not much but will run freezer, Internet and pv inverters etc.
The key number on powering AC units is Locked Rotor Amps (LRA). My 3-ton AC needs 83 LRA to start. The PW2 and 3 easily can start my AC system. But the PW3 just blows past the 2. So yes ONE PW3 can power a whole house albeit for a limited time if your are careless and don't shed some systems.
That's impressive - wow!
Garry, as always very interesting. I will be installing two Tesla Powerwalls in my home. Would you wait for the Tesla Powerwall 3 or go ahead with 2 Tesla Powerwall 2's as the combined out put is 10kW, or install a Powerwall 2 now and add a Powerwall 3 when they are available? I would love your thought please.
Thanks James. For me, because my garage (where the battery would go) is directly below my bedroom, I'd not go for any battery solution that was NMC. But if I was installing batteries on an outside wall, that would be fine.
And it's worth knowing that Tesla has just reported that they've shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date. And trust me, if they were all going on fire the whole world would know about it! So, maybe I'm being too risk-averse?
In the UK, PW2 pricing is really good at the moment, so taking advantage of buying two units (increased power and capacity) makes a lot of sense. There's no mixing and matching possible with the PW3 though (which is a shame).
All the best with what you decide - I don't think you can go wrong though...
@@GaryDoesSolarwhat are your thoughts on LTO chem batteries?
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you, that is a great help.
In the USA at least, if you get a Cybertruck and have a Powerwall and a Tesla charger, the Cybertruck can add effective additional battery capacity up to 11.5kw I think. If you don't have a Powerwall you need another item, a special Gateway (Powerwalls use a different Gateway) that will take a few seconds to 'switch' to battery from the truck if it is plugged in. We are just getting 3 Powerwall 2s installed, it was under contract before PW3 was available and it should be commissioned tomorrow!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls. However, bc my garage is so tight, the Pw must be mounted externally, on the car port side, which worries me about how easy battery theft would be. Thoughts?
That’s cool! 😎
You don't need a Cybertruck or Powerwall for that. I do this in the UK with a Sunsynk Hybrid inverter and a Hyundai Ioniq car. All you need is a hybrid inverter with off grid capcaity and a car with V2L (Hyundai, Kia, Leaf, VW camper, Genesis, Ford Truck...more coming)
I have a battery ordered, I see two terminals that’s awesome! Gonna have a solis inverter and victron solar charge controller both connected to it
Sounds good - does the job!
Fantastic video. In future ones, if you can comment as well on the ability of the battery to charge discharge on its own and the assocuted app to monitor it, would be extremelly useful. Hoping the powerwall3 is available in Spain soon.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yes, I'll be picking up on that topic as time goes on. For the mass market, I think people would be happy for their setup to essentially manage itself, and simply reporting performance periodically.
Very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing your reseach. I guess if you also own an electric car the benefits of the power wall are even greater. Thinking about that though, if you own a modern electric car with car to home capabilities, would that not make having a power wall unnecassary?
Thanks for your kind words :-)
Now, I'm getting asked this a lot, and I'll be covering this in a future video. As an EV will not be at the property a 100% of the time, there is still very much the case for having a home battery, and perhaps the size of that home battery could be chosen according to the percentage of the time the EV will be away...
Another interesting feature that Tesla have just introduced is charge your Tesla car with excess solar. So you need a Tesla car, a PW2 and seems to work with any EV charger. The slider bar on the app gains a second sliding dot, first dot is charge from any source to that level and a 2nd dot is charge to that 2nd level with excess solar. The setup uses the current sensors in the PW2 to measure the exported current and then continuously adjusts the charging current demand from the car to minimise the exported energy.
Sounds great! 👍🏻
Fantastic vids; I was wondering about a couple of items that you might know about; when will PW3 be available for UK/IRL markets? And sense of pricing? And lastly…. Will it play well and integrate with previous/existing inverters and batteries…. Do you know?
Thank you for the kind feedback. I'm hearing mid/late 2024 for introduction to the UK, but no word on pricing. Apparently PW3 doesn't play with PW2 at all :-( but will integrate to any inverter.
@@GaryDoesSolar any insight into LG battery, seem to be the same form factor as PW3….. is it any good
@@gearoidoconnor6900 I'm not familiar with LG batteries - if I get time, I'll take a look!
Many thanks Gary - your videos are so well set out and informative.
Apologies if i missed it, but i assume that the powerwall is an ac coupled system and so would it be possible to retrofit to a solar system with a DC-coupled battery when extra storage needed (e.g., on addition of a heat pump) without the batteries interfering with each other? Or do you have to replace the DC coupled batteries if upgrading with such a battery? Thanks
Thanks for your kind words, Joe. Yeah, whilst it’s possible to add an AC coupled battery to any existing solar system, if that system already has a battery, then there is likely to be interference between the two batteries. For example, the existing battery of the system draining into the newly added battery. This can sometimes be prevented if all of the equipment is manufactured by the same company, but in the case of GivEnergy (my own setup), I note that this is not the case (which is a shame).
I agree, yet what I feel is really the future is a standard 15 kwh wall and a 25 kwh wall for all homes. With local proximity mapping power sharing.. If power goes down, a neighborhood could power share... making sure everyone maintains a safe level and allowing for the growing ev market home charging options..
Now that would be cool!
Bought 1 Powerwall 2, bought 2 more. Got 2.3kWp solar. Remote location UK, now have a week's worth of storage. Have economy7, absolutely no problems, great Tesla app.
Love it! :-)
This really depends on where you live. Here in northern Norway, with an EV, avg consumption in March is 98kwh per day with 10-15kw peak output required. In February avg consumption was 120kwh per day...
That’s a hefty consumption!
By my calculations, the pw3 has one of the best cost-to-payoff of the batteries I've looked at. 8 years to payoff just the battery (assuming on-peak load and off-peak charging). However, it's the installation that kills the product. Installed it goes for 8 years to 16. However, with the incentives, it drops to 11 years. That puts it on par with the ecoflow delta pro.
Crikey - installation costs are huge!
The Kia EV9 supports V2H, which with a 2 way charger can give a huge 94kwh usable capacity on top of that it also supports 11kw output. Now of course that is horribly expensive, but with more Kia with smaller batteries and much cheaper prices being released this year, they can give the best of both worlds, a home storage battery and backup during a major environmental disaster, and transport.
Wow - impressive output capability. Yeah, paving the way, I guess!
As my panels have a complex shading issue (I took regular pictures of the roof) I went for micro-inverters (generally considered better than optimisers). This really took me down the route of an AC coupled system. I didn't bother with the EPS as it would have required some rearranging of circuits and having a split PME/TT system. I'd probably already discounted the Tesla Powerwall 2 on the grounds of cost. Also, at the time, availability of any system, including GivEnergy, was scarce. I also wanted 5kW and that discounted GivEnergy (AC, at least). I've got Solax and I'm fairly happy with that and have good control with Home Assistant. The one box approach of Tesla is obviously good and is being copied by others.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - this will be really helpful to others! Overall, I still prefer AC Coupled over DC Coupled as it's more akin to a modular approach. And it's great that you've been able to task Home Assistant to control/report everything.
We have a small 6kW ASHP. GE Hybrid + 2X9.5’s is just about enough for us and has worked OK (Not perfect) over winter. Our manual EPS has a 20A limit (i.e. Not much!) Essentially runs everything except the ASHP… So it’s not full backup.
I like my GE set-up, it does what it needs to do, but would I go TESLA if I started again. Possibly if it was mounted outside…
GE/Octopus Energy offers automation. Will Tesla offer better rates - like the EV’s - for Tesla Powerwall owners?
Thank you for a great presentation.
My pleasure, John. Thanks for sharing details on your setup! 👍🏻
great vid, have you done a pros and cons of your own system, things you would like to see improve?
Thanks. As it happens, I have a Patreon, where I talk about my own solar and battery setup and also my plans for the future, if that's of interest: www.patreon.com/GaryDoesSolar
Another great video, thanks Gary. I really like the idea of the integrated inverter (making this a true "All In One" - EPS management aside). One question I had though is how efficient the inverter will likely be for the average (say 6kwh) array in the UK, keeping in mind your recent video about oversizing. Is there a chance the inverter will be 'too' powerful/inefficient for the average array?
Hi Philip, cheers for the great feedback! Yeah, there are definitely pros and cons to having a built-in inverter (especially one that capable). But if battery prices continue to fall, maybe it becomes a non-issue to have an inverter more capable than it needs to be? I don't know...
I understand that the Powerwall 3 is for new systems or systems that do not have batteries. It is not compatible with existing Powerwall 2 systems. So if you want to add more battery storage and you already have a Powerwall 2 the best solution is to get another Powerwall 2 and stack them which is what I have done. That will give you 10kW charge and discharge rates which is pretty close to the Powerwall 3 and its 11.5kW rates plus I now have a 27kW battery storage. Probably save some money too.
That's a great point, Philip. And PW2 prices are dropping as well. It's all good.
So why don’t you just tell us the prices???
@@paperklip3 Powerwall 3 are not available according to Bing until April or May but is says that expected prices will be between £12,000 and £18,000 which seems ridiculous to me as my Powerwall 2 I had installed in February cost me £6,773.73p including installation and a stacking kit. The company I use in the south of the UK is called JPS. They are exceptionally good and competitive.
Optimum design suggestions :-
1) separate inverter/charger from the battery - battery will probably out last the electronics and can be replaced/repairs separately.
2) use the modern 300AHr ( ~1KWHr ) LiFePO 'brick' cells in an accessible array so that a single weak/blown cell can be replaced.
3) see 2) these 'bricks' bring the battery cost down to < $100 per KWHr (delivered to Sydney AUS).
4) install in now a 2 box on the wall but at a much lower cost of ownership.
my payback period was under 2 years.
Hi Graeme, wow that was an incredibly short payback!
@@GaryDoesSolar DIY battery.
Many thanks once again Gary, always gaining extra knowledge from your videos 😊 now I need a Givenergy All-in-one2 to come out with Tesla powerwall3 specs before my system is able to be installed!
You're most welcome, and I can imagine the engineering team at GivEnergy is working hard on that now! Will be interesting to see what they come up with! :-)
Agreed. I was surprised the Allinone doesn't have a hybrid/solar inverter. Given their links with Octopus a battery import/export I.e. virtual power plants makes sense for the masses. Most people just want a simple one box solution so it's great Tesla is showing how it should be done
i really like your videos and has helped me a lot to understand various concepts. I am planning to setup a solar at home and have been going through your videos; On the Tesla Powerwall i am keen and interested to have one but i have been comparing it to datasheet. (1) In the video you mentioned 6 parallel inputs supported but in the technical sheet i see MPPT : 3; (2) in the video you mentioned that upto 11kW of power output but i dont find this in any of the technical databasheet - also i am unable to compare it with any other battery provider because its not clearly mentioned anywhere. I hope i am looking at the correct values but i dont find them atleast. Can you help clarify?
Great to hear that my videos have been useful to you - thanks for that feedback.
Ah, yes - this was new information for me also. In the US a PW3 will have 6 MPPTs but in other countries, like the UK, it only has 3. I explain why in my follow-up video to the PW3 being released tomorrow.
Regarding the power output, here is the PW3 data sheet quoting that value (look for 'Maximum Continuous Discharge Power'):
service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-3-with-Gateway-3-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-EC527BC7-4750-4425-BBC4-DB8C000339B3.html
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks for this looking forward to the explanation; on the power output unfortunately I only see the 11kW on the US site on the Europe site (Germany) I only the emergency power supply 4,6kW Fast emergency power switchover. On the US site it has 11kW with seamless backup transition. I was really considering this as an option but with these limitations I’m wondering how much it’s worth. Also any tentative timeline in terms of which month?
I have 4kWp solar and a Powerwall 2. My criteria are capacity, output and resilience. That said I imagine for everyone the initial outlay would be top of the list but that's not important right now.
Reason for purchase - maximising solar and minimising future electricity bills, along with blackout management as I'm in an area where this is still a thing.
I use about 6 kW/day annual average broken down as 7-10 winter, 2-3 summer (i.e. practically full utilisation) so the 13.6kW capacity is ideal for me though I'd never turn down more.
The biggest issue is that managing power requirement is a learning process - no more than one big load at once, please!.
It has to be said that output at 3.6kW is not brilliant if you want to charge an EV (7kW) modestly quickly. Minor issue for now as I charge elsewhere at low cost.
The Tesla app is a doddle to use and I haven't yet felt the need to go onto a smart meter where I will find greater savings and more utilisation. That's coming, I'm on Octopus already so shouldn't be difficult. (And thanks for your videos on the meter topic)
Thanks for taking the time to share all this - great insight! And it will be very useful to a lot of people :-)
having the inverter on the same unit as the battery may make it easier to install but I think it's an awful decision on the long run. After the inverter tends to be weaker component and the one that will need to be replaced sooner. There's a reason most batteries give you a 7-9 years warranty, solar panels +25 years but inverters usually 4-5y. And I know tesla will give the powerwall a 10year one but there's a lot of updates and paper work, most people will only get the "mandatory" 4 years
Good point - although I suspect the battery and inverter lifetimes will be about the same. From what I can see on the inside of the PW3, modules look to be easily replaceable in any case. For me, it's that the PW3 enables quicker and easier installs. Will be interesting to see the take up - and of course, the other manufacturers are following what Tesla does...
That was my thinking too. I am currently 75% through the Elon Musk book and there's plenty of insight into how he approaches design, manufacturing and operations from solar to cars to rockets. The book covers how he got into the solar business and how he personally got involved (and changed) the approach to installation - a major factor in the viability/profitability of that business. I therefore assume that this is driven by the install economics - however, I would not be surprised to see easy maintenance for later in the life-cycle - he's that type of thinker.
@@JohnMoor1970 Agreed!
I have had my solar / Powerwall 2 installed about 3 years. Not sure if that makes me an early adopter or part of growing mass market.
My view now is that I wish I had gone for two PW2s instead of one. Once you start switching more towards electricity and trying to make sure it as natural as possible then you realise that you need more and more storage. The household has two electric cars, a Mixergy tank and I tend to use battery power for the gardening. In winter 13.5 storage capacity is not enough.
Output capacity is also important (one car draws 7.2)
Ease of installation and weather protection are also important.
I am not certain about the emergency supply also being linked to a static battery. I did have to have my Tesla PW2 replaced after two years because of a fault. So I am not sure putting all my eggs in one basket is the right option. So I have been looking at portable electric storage that can provide power during power cuts but also when on the move. I should also add that my car has vehicle to load so in theory access to a large battery.
I don’t know enough to comment on NMC v LFT.
I'd still say you were an early adopter, as the rest of the market is just waking up.... :-)
Thanks for your insight - will be useful to others!
Thanks Gary and keep up the good work. I should have added that I use Octopus for off peak rates when needed. I also have invested in Ripple Energy’s wind and solar farms. My aim is to hopefully get rid of using gas without too much financial pain.
@@stevieguk8014 Thanks - will do! And your strategy is very similar to mine!
The integration of the solar inverter certainly simplifies the hardware installation but will it cause issues with the maximum length of solar DC cables? Solar inverters are often installed in the attic so cable runs are short but batteries of this size are generally installed outside or in a garage which could be a distance away?
That's a good point - thanks for raising.
Can run 4mm DC cable upto around 70m before volt drop becomes an issue then just step up to 6mm for upto 150m so not an issue
Thinking about a PW 3 for Germany - role out here is ahead of us (and I operate 10 kwp PV and drive a MY): (i) is the US version with KI and if so what are its capabilitoes? (ii) can it be coupled with the MY and is the MY V2H capable?
Crikey - too many acronyms! I have no idea what you're asking, sorry :-)
Hi there, you said you had give energy battery installed into your house, which is what I was looking at, do you think the Tesla battery is a better option to your setup?
Yes I have GivEnergy in my house and it's performed extremely well since installation (just over a year ago). GivEnergy batteries are also very affordable compared to other manufacturers - especially Tesla, which is one of the most expensive brands.
If money wasn't an issue, I'd go for Tesla I reckon, but I wouldn't install it inside the house if it's NMC chemistry. GivEnergy batteries are all LFP.
@GaryDoesSolar I'd be interested to know how you think the new Powerwall 3 fits in alongside microinverters which seem to be increasing in prevalance?
Yeah, I think the two can work together well (although the inverter in the PW3 would be redundant). Now, I'm hearing (but not confirmed yet) that there is a PW3 without the build-in inverter. To me, that's perfect for a microinverter solution....
@@GaryDoesSolar great intel as always Gary - I'm looking to get solar and battery ordered over the coming month, so might sit on my hands and wait for the TPW3 to come out!
Always a brilliant video with great information thank you Gary 🇬🇧
Cheers William - and sorry it took so long to publish. I was away on a business trip.
*NOTES SINCE PUBLICATION*
1. There is now confirmation that the Tesla Powerwall 3 has LFP chemistry. See this video from a Tesla Engineer, talking about the product in detail: th-cam.com/video/pJBOXMATIcU/w-d-xo.html
2. I've been asked if I have received any compensation from Tesla for this video. I can confirm I have not received any compensation nor benefits from Tesla for this or any other videos I have made. And that I'll always mark videos as "Paid Promotion" should that ever be the case.
That videos gone - "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Green House Solar and Air, Inc"
@@TheDark0rb Yeah, I had noticed this too. Here's a website that covered many of the points raised in that video: www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/tesla-confirms-key-powerwall-3-specs/
In Australia, there is a limit on the size of inverter at 15kw, but my powerwall 2 counts as 5kw, so I am hoping for approval for 20kw currently. The powerwall 3 would count as 11kw, so it's a problem.
Yeah, I feel your pain. And I'm not sure things on that front will change quickly (if at all). Self-consumption is your friend, therefore.
Pretty sure that the Powerwall 3 comes with three solar inverter inputs (rather than the mentioned six). Still better than most inverters though! :)
Oh, and thanks, great video. :)
According to www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/tesla-powerwall-3-review this is the official Tesla Powerwall 3 Datasheet: static1.squarespace.com/static/655ca2b0f826bb7b2b4dfe90/t/65e3263840ddfe5f5e3c746c/1709385276736/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_NA-EN.pdf. It confirms 6 MPPTs.
Hi Clark, thanks for your very kind words! Here's the data I was working from for the video: digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_Rev-1_03312023.pdf
This is where I got the '6' from.
@@GaryDoesSolarHm, I see what you mean... I'll put my "belief" in the "questionable" basket for now... :)
Three inputs for DC from solar, not three inputs from inverters
Capacity is to tiny for one Powerwall to cover a few days or provide any backup for say your electric car. This is why Car to House would be
nice. Even with Solar Panels it would be nice to have enough for 3 days power on the housed.
Agreed - 2 or 3 days off grid would be useful.
But 54kw will cost you around 24k plus fitting .
However I need the 3 to be available now so will be forced down another route .
Thanks for clear info supplied in videos .
Yeah, might be a while before PW3 is available outside of the US. Hope you are able to get a great alternative battery solution though! Thanks for your kind words :-)
The Tesla powerwall is an excellent product. However the Enphase battery has advantages in certain situations. If you are using micro inverters or you want to incorporate a generator are two examples.
I would agree - it's certainly better to have all your equipment from the same manufacturer today, as it will have tighter integration. And there's a lot to be said of Enphase products in that respect.
Instead of large static battery capacity,, shouldn't we be leaving to integrate something like vehicle to home(V2H)? You already have a large battery that is sitting at home most of the day.
Agreed, and I think that both home and EV batteries will work together to provide a holistic solution. I'm planning a video on that before long :-)
To enable V2H (Powershare), you'll need three things: a Universal Wall Connector, a Gateway-2, and a Powerwall.
Another excellent, informative video - thanks Gary. I have a modular battery system which is plug and play and I was expecting to see the price of the battery modules drop from Feb 1st 2024 as the UK Government extended its energy saving materials scheme to include retro fit home batteries. However, the batteries for my system have remained the same - do you know why? Either the retailers are slow to extend the savings or perhaps I've misunderstood how that works.
So, the VAT element should disappear. There was always the danger that manufacturers simply held onto that themselves - this has happened in other markets (like sunscreen and baby products) - but I'm a firm believer in the free market, and it only takes another distributor to see the advantage for them, to pass on the VAT rebate... :-)
An excellent overview. Thanks. Mike L, Sydney NSW Australia
Cheers for the great feedback, Mike! :-)
Gary you clearly haven't considered Sunsynk inverters and batteries. A lot less expensive than powerwall. Here are some basics.
1. Maximum batteries 138kw Lithium Iron Phosphate.
2. Can deliver 5kw Load
3. Has a stand alone "island" mode
4. Has two MMPT bit can be daisy chained and still be less expensive than Tesla.
5. Has as standard auxiliary feed for wind turbine / generator.
6. Has Agile buy sell function available in UK.
Suggest you take a look this is a very seriously good system. I've had mine over a year. The same inverter tweaked / badge engineered, by a US company sells to doomsday "peppers" at a big premium.
Hi Andy, you're right - I haven't covered Sunsynk yet, but I am hearing more and more good things about their products. I've made a note...
I like their hardware but their software has been down most of the weekend. I missed out of the saving event this weekend as a result. And this isn’t the first time this has happened either. Their contact with the public when things go wrong is non existent too. Such a pity because the kit seems solid.
Yes, this weekend their server has been down. It's working now, they moved everything to a base in Europe and are still bedding in. I've had the system in place for a year on the original servers without problems.
It's also worth pointing out it's also compatible with home automation systems like Amazon's, Google's et Al. Another feature is they have or are supplying an Eddie type water heat diverter which was to be included in the price.
For my 6.1kW solar panel system, my small 4.8kWh (4kWh usable) battery system is sufficient so that only 20% of my energy comes from the grid over the course of a year whilst more than half of what I generate is exported. With the falling cost of batteries and the doubling of electricity cost since my system was installed in July 2021 I could now justify getting a third battery to give me 6kW of usable battery storage but any bigger would simply be a waste of money. I suspect that is also the case for most UK households. In the winter there is insufficient solar generation to fully charge the batteries I have already and in the summer the batteries I have are more than sufficient.
This is great insight - thanks for sharing with me!
The PW3 actually has larger volume @1.275 cu m PW2 @1.2075 cu m...this is assuming the dimensions you posted are correct. I'm leaning towards it still being NMC chemistry. Had they made the move to LFP I feel they would be advertising the fact. The extra weight and volume accounted for by all the extra it can do.
It's a beautiful battery and all the specs you mention are awesome.......except for the spec that matters to me which is PRICE. My build is in it's infancy and my battery is a 3 year old telecom 48v 100ah server rack job which had only been cycled 100-150 times and I acquired for around USD 325. Together with my 4 x 310w second panels which cost me less than USD 40 a piece. I am hoping to expand this to another 3 of the batteries and another 8 panels.....so, yeah, the price point is an issue for me on even PW1. But they are nice and the video also nicely and well presented sir :)
Wow - great move, building your own battery system! Yeah, I'm hearing from lots of people on the NMC/LFP question - and it's about 50:50 both sides! Hopefully, we'll all hear definitely one way or the other soon! Thanks for the kind words about the video :-)
Quick question Gary, you said nearly 20kWh wasn't enough for your home, what tariff are you on? And what is your consumption throughout the day?
I use on average 4kWh between 05:30 and 23:30, I use my 15kWh and charge it at 7.5p kWh and dump 10kWh everyday back on the grid at 15p kWh, plus any Solar bypasses the battery and also goes on the grid. What is your set up and how do you make it work? I would also recommend getting the 5kW inverter, helps with discharging during tea time 👍
Hi Bradley, so I should say that most days, 19kWh is enough to cover daily usage - it's just when we're washing and drying clothes, or doing a lot of cooking that we consumer more (which seems to happen more often than I'd prefer!)
So, in addition to the batteries I have a 5kW GivEnergy hybrid inverter and I'm currently on the Agile Octopus tariff. It's very good pricing at the moment and has a pretty good export rate, which is great now that we're starting to see more sun!
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself.
Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself.
Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
That’s interesting, agile has not been too crackly lately as I’ve attempted it myself.
Would you not benefit from intelligent go or intelligent flux? Seems slightly safety and allows to time your battery charges and washing/drying/shiftable usage more? While keeping a stronger export?
@@bradleyarcher9840 If I had an EV then IOG would be in my sights, but in the meantime, I'm really liking the rates on Agile 😃
can you stack a powerwall 3 to a pre-existing powerwall2?
Hi Robert, not yet - but I heard from a Tesla engineer that this is being worked on, for release early next year at the latest...
Here in the UK the electricity grid is very reliable and the ability to power my home should the grid fail just isn't important to me, or I doubt to the mass market.
Granted, in many areas of the UK, the electricity supply is solid (great) but, unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many part other parts of the country (or the world). Agreed though - no need to invest in capability that is not required.
Hi Gary
Another interesting video. I am still on the fence over solar/battery installation but my current thinking is leaning towards starting with a battery only setup using Octopus Agile tariff so I can take advantage of the very effective averaging of unit cost. I will be aiming for an average unit cost of 12-14p per kWh. As space in the house is limited and we have no convenient outbuildings I am leaning towards using 4-5 small modular Growatt (3.3kWh) batteries stacked in the loft as they are easy to lift up through the fairly small hatch. The inverter would go in the loft as well. The installation will be above the metercandceasilyvaccessible via existing cupboards more or less in direct line between the two.
We average about 10.5 kWh per day at the moment and heat with a gas boiler which I have no plans to replace. I designed the CH system myself so the radiators are generously sized and it heats the house well at a flow temperature of 58C. I doubt a HP would save any money and would probably cost the same or more to run on present COP and servicing costs. On past experience I would expect the boiler to last at least another 10 years. Maybe if a 'direct HP' ( ie one that simply replaced the boiler without requiring a large intermediate c hot water cylinder) became available at a competitive cost it might be attractive. Likely to be a few years before that happens.
I might add solar panels later as the extra installation costs of splitting the job will be quite small as most of this will be for the panels, linking cables, scaffolding etc. The new VAT free cost for the battery makes the split more attractive.
Of course it might be better to wait for new battery technology but I think this could be another 4-5 years so opportunity cost will be higher.
Mike
Hi Mike - thanks, as always, for your excellent insight and thinking. It's not easy eh? to determine the best course of action! So many factors at play... I'm always interested to hear how you intend to progress though :-)
Thanks Gary for this very informative video! Just wondering if you are familiar with ecoflwo powerocean? it seems like a close competitor to PW3 just by the looks of their specs- 5kwh from start, expandable to 45kwh, 10kw output, backup mode supported, and also LFP battery! The battery chemistry would be on top of my consideration, if I were about to instill this big chuck of battery in my house, I'd like them to be as safe as possible. Unfortunately there is not much info available about this brand...Will keep following your channel, keep up the good work!
You're very welcome - thanks for the great feedback! The video seems to be getting some traction and generating a lot of commentary - fab!
Now, I'd always thought of EcoFlow as portable power units, but I just searched for the PowerOcean, and it looks to be very similar! I'll dig into the specs and prices a bit more... thanks for highlighting! :-)
Unfortunately the big miss for me is no three phase support. It's not surprising given Tesla's main market is North America, but in countries like Australia where three phase is common, not being able to generate three phase to keep the solar array going means backup protection is limited.
Agreed.
I have just put my planning permission in for our heat pump. I will need another battery. That will take me to 12.8 kWh. Ours are in our loft. So we have 4x 3.2 kWh batteries as they can be lifted into the loft. As a side note, I am trying to find a way to optimise the heat pump with Agile. Agile would still seem to be better than Cosy.
All this sounds really good! It's funny that Cosy, which was designed for heat pump users is not cutting it against other tariffs!
I'm using 6 Solid State Storage batteries and can power my house for 28 hours. About 1/3rd size of Battery Wall package. Less than 55% of costs too.
Sounds great! Did you build or buy such a solution?
@@GaryDoesSolar I have it going now. Cuts out domestic provider at noon. Restores at 7Pm. Bill dropped like a rock too.
Capacity i do agree 10kwh is minimum, we currently have 9.6kwh and looking to increase it to about 13.4
Also long lifespan is important for us since we have no plans on leaving the house we are currently living in, as well as the ability to be blackout proof and offgrid compatible
Also a thought on the extra weight of the powerwall 3 over the 2, how much extra weight would having an inbuilt solar inverter as well as the extra water "resistant" protection add? If it didnt have those extra additions then the weight could be a tell tail sign of its chemistry
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Do you have (or are you thinking of getting) a heat pump? That's what's making me think a larger battery is going to helpful - especially over the winter months when there's not a lot of sun around...
@@GaryDoesSolar just edited my original comment to talk about the weight as well.
Yes we will be getting a heat pump hot water maybe in the next 12 months. We will leave it then for a year or two to gather data and we may decide on the getting a secondary offgrid solar system installed on our garage to help during Winter plus can keep the option of disconnecting completely from the Grid if required/wanting
Ps. We live in Australia
@@J-P88 Ah, you won't have a problem with lack of sun then! 🙂 Sounds like you're making all the right decisions.- good luck with everything!
@@GaryDoesSolar🤞, you can be surprised, in winter we can get days that even a 20-30kw system produces less then 10kwh, even for myself last week we had a 35°c day but was overcast and that cut our normal production in half, it's what got me thinking about larger battery as ot was a hot day so needed AC but we started using battery capacity probably 3-4 hours earlier then expected. That extra breathing space is what we want, but will gather more data before making a rash decision as it isn't exactly a cheap exercise
A very powerful set of capabiltiies and features that should appeal to a lot of home owners. One thing you didn’t cover in detail is local API’s for management. My understanding is that the Powerwall is a comparatively closed eco system so if you want to do your own management its not straight forward.
I know there’s a “Tesla premium”, but looking just now I’ve seen it suggested that the PW3 will be £12,000-18,000 fitted. Compared to say a GivEnergy All-in-one with the same 13.5kW storage, its around £6,500 + (say) £1,000 solar inverter + fitting cost. That’s quite a substantial difference in price …
Yeah, that’s a huge difference in price. Agreed, there’s not much in the way of standardisation with solar and battery equipment at the moment. So it’s better to keep everything with the same manufacturer. This allows better system control and data management.
Great video, Very much looking forward to the PW3! Subscribed
Thanks for the great feedback, and also for subscribing! :-)
Google search indicates the installation of a power wall 3 in the UK is ave £15,000. You get a 10 year warranty. You then have to pay for charging it, cheap rate or installation cost of solar.... And then after 10 years you may need to buy a new one, depending how careful you are with charge discharge cycles ..... Financially not sure this makes sense ....
There's always a premium for brand new products from the premium brands, but the competition will follow very soon, and all this will help bring prices down... :-)
With any large financial decision, you need to do your own situational man maths.
Also, factor in how long you plan to be in your current home etc.
Batteries are movable, but you'll pay each time of course.
I have 2 Powerwall 2s and 30 panels. The system cost was a bit under 8 times my annual power bill. 85% of the year it powers my house entirely, plus sends power to the grid, which I get credit for. That means in 8 years I'll be free and clear and at ten years the Powerwall are warrantied to produce at least 70% of original capability. At the point they won't power everything, I'll just do it again. Obviously, I don't live in the UK though.
I can't make the numbers work right now either, no matter how much I'd like to. If all the kit were 25% cheaper, that's the tipping point. Like Gary says, maybe many competitors will adopt the PW3 as the cookie-cutter / de-facto standard and prices will drop. Who knows, maybe Sodium will come along in a couple years.
I can get an almost brand new, EV battery, 45 KWh, for £5,000. Would it be possible to use that for home storage? It's just so much cheaper. Also any places to research thermal storage for the home?
It might be, but I’m not an expert in DIY setups like that.
Thanks for replying. I'm sure you must watch a few, 'Home Solar' channels- any you would recommend? (Esp. DIY type ones.) Thanks. @@GaryDoesSolar
I can’t relate to most of the requirements you state in your video. Since the last blackout happened so long ago that I can’t even remember it, it makes no sense to overpay for such a big battery. The economically best home battery dimension is a capacity that covers your consumption over night and is basically fully discharged, when the sun starts to take over, again.
Having a full back-up battery only makes sense in countries, where blackouts are common.
Agreed - no need to pay extra for EPS if where you live, it's just not an issue.
There seem to be counter indicating features on the PW3 to suggest which chemistry. The higher power output suggests MNC but the lack of positive cooling suggests LFP. But on cost alone you would expect Tesla to go for LFP. But we have to remember that many americans value more power over everything, so Tesla may have opted for MNC.
Yeah, if I were a betting man, I've honestly no idea which way I would bet! And still no word from Tesla...