Battery 4.0: The Solid State Battery Revolution
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- Solid state batteries are just around the corner with most major battery and car manufacturers pursuing this technology. What does the future of battery production look like?
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0:00 The Solid State Battery Revolution
1:05 Battery 0.0: Humanity's First Battery - The Baghdad Battery
2:28 Battery 1.0: The First Practical Battery
3:51 Battery 2.0: Rechargeable Batteries
4:32 Battery 3.0: Lithium Ion Batteries
7:13 Battery 4.0: Solid State Batteries
10:00 Solid State Battery Progress and Future
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To be fair: Toyota has published a "2-3 years to market" article since about 2014. I'm not saying they won't get there, but just that it's very hard to know if they're actually making any progress at all.
Better batteries are up there with Graphene and Fusion, we hear of them everyday but yet we are still waiting
I believe Toyota is fucked, and they’re lying about viability to avoid the billions they’ve capitalized as R&D.
Is the Panasonic/Toyota partnership investment 50/50?
Hard to take a tiny hand-built cell from the lab to mass production I guess... Really not that useful if you can only discharge it once.
Like the cure for baldness and nuclear fusion, it's only 10 years away. They just need to solve a few impossible technical issues.
They want to keep consumers waiting. Why buy a BEV now when that critical game changing breakthrough is just around the corner?
"The Solid State Battery": "Cool!"
"The Baghdad Battery": "Ohhh noo..."
I had the exact same thought🤣🤣
yep, I face palmed, why is this in the video...
Yeah I stopped watching after that, came for some education not edutainment
I can't help but to chuckle a bit every time I hear the name of Mr. Goodenough who, IMHO, should be called Excelentasheck :)
John Be Good Enough
“To be more exact”.
They wrote songs about that man . Jonny B good... enough
Ever heard of the director "Zal Batmanglij"? Lol. He directed "The East" and co-created "The OA".
It's gotta be real interesting to have "batman" in your name. 😆
@@iamstickfigure Ever heard of Batman bin Suparman?
@@wormball I have not. Lol
A good friend works at a battery lab where they have several solid-state projects underway. She's very optimistic for the long term but questions the three year mass production timetable as a little too aggressive for what they're seeing.
People overestimate what can be done in one year, and underestimate what can be done in ten
Bill gates
We will see. Keep hearing it. Mass production is the issue. Doesnt matter if you can make a battery that is 10 times the power if it costs a fortune or takes forever to syneesizie.
@@ohnoitisnt Also Bill Gate on RAM limit: "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
@@skipondowntheroad5833 Google chrome was like hold my beer...
@@skipondowntheroad5833out of context
I didn't know that John Bannister Goodenough passed away I was really hoping he would live to see the way solid state batteries improved our lives. He never settled on being good enough always searching for perfection Thank you J.B.G. you'll be missed and always remembered.
Perhaps not passed away but run down and waiting for a recharge
I too learned about it in this video. Man was a freakin legend, got a nobel at 97, lived up to 100 years, and was still working.Thats just amazing!
He's not very known to the masses (just yet, I hope) but his work changed and will keep changing the whole world.
I can only hope to live a fraction of a life this guy did.
and not a single Johnny B. Goode joke...
At least he lived a good enough life
@@pneumonoultramicroscopicsi4065Good enough
"Who shall we task with inventing a completely new type of battery that will change humanity forever?"
"Well, I guess John B. Goodenough"
The cost of a solid state Li-ion battery prototype is still prohibitive; because all the sintering and machining of the separator, requiring flatness at molecular level. Ions have a problem diffusing in solids but there isn't a single word on how that is achieved; but the most likely process utilised for the separator is the same doping method used in the production of semiconductors.
My impression is that the year 2025+ is an hope and not a certainty.
Thank you Prof. Miles
Greetings,
Anthony
Could the surfaces be brought into intimate contact by sintering while under compression?
I also wonder how a completely rigid thin ceramic separator are going to deal with bending and vibration. Fun times
3D printing will solve most issues.
@@JoeyBlogs007 I have a 3d printer, it's like a hot glue gun on a wobbly cnc machine, it's not the cure for the human condition. Calm down
Well the price at the pump isnt really improving either - gas/oil is going to go up, so it might still be worth the price difference.
I am in a rare age bracket in my mid 50s. Old enough to remember the days before the Internet and common rechargeable batteries, before cell phones and way before smartphones. But still young enough to expect to see the revolution that solid state batteries will bring. I get to see it all.
imagine being 72 and watching your uncle's excitment at seeing a motor he made going to the moon and that same uncle saying 21 years later that we can send a missile through sadam's window any time we want. while at the same time my grandpa still used horses and never learned to drive. my first tractor i cranked to start and now i am thinking of getting a electric riding mower.
@@victorhopper6774
A 'one of a kind, one produced' motor or a mass produced motor where he was part of the production factory process ? He really never learned to drive ? Tell me more, sounds interesting.
@@BillSmith-fx7xx my grandfather never learned to drive, read or write. you might say my uncle was his exact opposite since he had a number of patents in electronics and owned and flew a couple planes.
@@victorhopper6774
Thank you for your reply !
I apologize, I think I read poorly and lumped your grandfather & uncle into one person. Regardless, it is noted that you have been interestingly 'sandwiched' between two generations where one used almost no 'modern technology' and the other was deeply involved in modern technological advancement. And you got see and appreciate it while two probably 'great guys' were living it. :-)
Happy Holidays Sir !
I have an old (early 50's) Transatlantic Radio. The battery is rechargeable
weighs in at a bit over 6lbs. and can output 9v or 90v. It's a dry zinc-carbon
pile and it still holds a charge. Not exactly state of the art but then
I doubt anything made today will hold a charge after 70+ years.
Its funny how some of these technologies come back. Idk why were were chasing liquid applications for batteries anyways, solid is much denser as a material anyways and thus can hold higher charge. But I guess planned obsolescence also played a role with companies seeing the battery as a timer to sell new stuff.
Same with thermal storage. Now "sand" storage is the new hot thing. We have known for centuries that stone has insane thermal mass, yet you never hear about stuff like that.
Or insulators for that matter, everyone wants to make a new insulator while we already know the best type of insulation, which is having nothing, literally. Vacuum that is, but it isn't applied at a large scale, we still use materials that trap air in bubbles as thermal insulators which is stupid. Could as well make even plastic structural panels which can hold up against atmospheric pressure and it would be perfect insulation. But nooo.
How is zinc-carbon rechargeable? Are you sure it's what you claim it is? Chemistry proves otherwise.
@@YouCountSheep
Ridiculous you question things you clearly know nothing about. You have to use something liquid in a battery is called electrolyte that's why they use it. Why do you think they're having a hard time making solid state. Or putting things under vacuum as insulation? You don't realize how hard it is to keep vacuum on something and then it's gonna collapse. Good luck making a material like that
@@SimEon-jt3sr You seem to not quite understand what I was saying. Solid material is denser than any liquid and thus is capable of holding more energy. Electrolytes was an easy way of making batteries work and everyone who worked with batteries before knows how toxic that stuff is.
And no, you don't have to use a liquid electrolyte to store a charge. That is nonsense. All it does is make it easier material science wise.
That was I was saying. If we put efforts in for 50 years to look beyond liquid electrolytes and look for solid solutions we would be way further. This "revolution" of solid state could have happened in the 1960. And that is what I was saying.
…so still 10 years away 😂
Anthropologist here: some archaeologists suggest the ancient batter was used to apply metal plating to jewelry or other ornamental objects.
Thanks, there must have been a utility to something that intricate.
There are much more likely explanations that do not involve it being a battery.
@@rogerphelps9939 which are?
@@1337fraggzb00Nasked "which are?”
The vessel is similar to others believed to be for storing sacred scrolls. It being a battery is not believed by mainstream archeology. This is mainly because the construction is wrong for it to be a battery. Reconstructions to prove its efficacy were made differently. Frustratingly, sources promoting the battery theory misrepresent and leave out information. Read more widely...
@@kramelbbiw so... another ancient alien bullshit. I knew it.
EVs aren't limited to 80% charge, its just that after 80% state of charge the speed of charge drops off a cliff and its not worth staying. Most bladders fail before the charge in the battery empties
Bladders?
@@32BitJunkie Yes: some of us -- many of us! -- have to stop to pee well before the EV is below 20% state of charge. So a stop every couple of hours is necessary for reasons other than charging up the EV. Put another way: pee interval < recharge interval.
@@xchopp Yeah but how long do you stop for thou? My family might just be more allergic to movement than usual but in my experience ~850ish km trips typically only necessitate 1-2 stops (depending on who's awake) of ~5ish minutes max. Bathroom + quick stretch doesn't take that long so typically fueling speed is already a bottleneck.
Google says the average EV has a bit under 400km range in 2019; let's say it's 500km now. If you are doing 20% to 80% to maximize charging speed that cuts that to 300, not accounting for lowered range on highways. That's a break every ~2.5 hour for ~30 minutes rather than every ~5 hours for ~5 minutes. That's significant.
Now granted long trips are once or twice every few years kind of thing, so you could argue it's good enough most of the time. However by the same token you probably don't need a car period most of the time. Now I think about it, maybe gas powered crew cab pickup per household for the long trips and moving sofas/pianos/TVs and an e-bike or moped per person for everyday mobility is likely the way to go. Much better for the environment too.
No, they are limited, and sometimes more than by 20% too. Typically there's both a top and bottom SOC (state of charge, not at all confusingly sharing an acronym with system on chip) buffer to prolong battery life. On the tesla model 3 for example the top buffer is apparently 10%. So when your cars displays 100%, the physical battery cells are averaging 90%. Didn't find anybody talking about the size of the bottom buffer, but apparently it's typically larger than the top buffer.
When people recommend using 20% to 80% of an ev's battery, that's on top of the built in buffers. So charge rate actually drops of a cliff at more like 70%.
@@randomnobody660 I'm talking about what the driver sees on his/her dashboard.
I remember many years ago Toyota told me I could buy their Solid State Battery car in 2022. Every time i went back to their website the launch year just increased.
I honestly hope we are "at that point" and EVERYTHING will shift to this better battery in a few years!
probably not considering you cant store more then 100% in a vessel.... being 100% MEANS FULL Capacity........ here, good example, can you fill a glass will more water then it holds? no, its 100% full.. or the rest of it ebds up on your lap.....
I'm tired of this bs humans try to manipulate english for they're own $$$$$$ gain....
@@harleyme3163.....what?
Humans are over optimistically hard wired. Fact.
1980s had the protoypes of lithium-ion. Took 30 to 40years to get them to industrial scale usefulness - and even now they remain expensive.
So, 20, 30 years ...or more for solid state. So, not 'at that point' I think.
Why would I be right? I'm a statistical outlier in optimism stakes (some would say pessimist by comparison) and also pragmatic engineer. Every prediction I ever made turned out to be pretty much on target. Let's see.
@@bbbf09 Iphone was released in 2007, did that have lithium-ion?
@@V1ciousR It did and they had them before even the iphone - but the starting point was the 1980s and my keyword was *industrial scale* - by which I meant was affordable enough and large power enough for EVs (which was the topic in hand) and thats around 30 years...as evidenced that first Teslas (excluding the Lotus) & Nissan Leaf around 2012.
Look - solid state batteries are available now for small scale and specific low power devices (pacemakers, smart watches) - that doesnt mean they will be available for EVs anytime soon. 10 years might be possible - if lucky - but another 20 years is my guess. I guess my overall point is why is eevryone so desperate for them now? A viable solution for EVs already exist.
Sorry - what was your point?
You're getting it wrong about 80%
- For slow charging it's the default charging target because staying for a long time at high SoC makes the battery degrade relatively faster, so there's an incentive to slow charge to 100% only it you really need it (not applicable to LFP and some other types of battery)
- For fast charge the safe charging power is gradually reduced as the SoC grows and then at one point transitions from CC to CV saturation charge phase where the current naturally is rapidly falling even if there was no safety limit in place. You can absolutely charge to 100% on a fast charger, it's just that the tail % usually take so much longer it's not worth it. Yet there's no damage in doing so.
I’ve been hearing about solid state batteries being the next big thing for years now. It’s not worth reporting on until they’re actually close to production.
For the neophyte possibly, but for us science buffs there is plenty of interesting story-telling in exploring the path to the end result.
Dumb take. "Not worth reporting on"? No.
If you talking as a consumer, ok.
But we are science nerds, we want to know every update.
@@BigKingJohnthis is the same story over and over again with no major breakthrough or advancement. That’s why it’s not worth reporting it AGAIN for the 10th time.
@@JxcksonSF Yes, but that would entail there to be an actual update to begin with. What was told here is not news, it's merely a report on things that have already been in the works for 5+ years. It's not like a breakthrough was made recently - at least not a significant one, just a lot of small steps.
I don't agree with OP's point that it should not be reported on, but at the same time it also shouldn't be sensationalized until there is something actually sensational to report on. For now, it's still deep in the r&d phase, and we are still waiting on the same milestone of breaking into grid scale production and actual field implementation rather than lab monitoring.
As someone who does follow solid state battery development quite closely, I really don't see what the news worthy content was for this video. Basically can be summarized with "Toyota wants to use solid state batteries, hope to be closer to production in 2026", and that's about it. Nothing else was new nor ground breaking. It's more or less the same issues that were being tackled 5 years ago, we are just a little further along, but not to any degree where we can actually say when this technology will be implemented in actual products for consumer/enterprise. There are a lot of battery advances like it, but they're all still in lab and wishful speculation will never be news worthy. Oakridge Uni is developing tech that rivals solid state, and they hope to have it ready for field testing in 2025 - emphasis on "hope". That's all this is, for now. And personally, I don't find "hope" to be news report worthy.
This is actually super exciting, especially in combination with the upcoming solid state cooling. I'm imagining laptops, handheld PC's, and other small form factor devices that have not only cooling potential that is much greater, quieter, and smaller, but also lasts days at a time on a single charge while only taking 10-30minutes to fully charge. The future of hardware technology is definitely bright.
To me, the real question is, if solid state batteries require more Lithium and that we already are on a tendency of Lithium shortage, where are we going to find all the Lithium needed for all the appliances it's supposed to cover (EVs, handheld devices, home appliances etc..) ? And at what cost for the planet ?
The theory maybe makes the future looks bright, the reality of how those materials are found and extracted from earth look scarier (To produce cheap solid state batteries, it means we strongly underpay someone somewhere that is going to get his/her hands dirty to go get it for big companies, so do we keep on exploiting misery around the world? Also, when a resource is limited and that many countries want and need that resource, what happens next? ).
Sad to hear John is no longer with us. I remember reading and watching videos about his research, how determined he was.
.....and yet he failed.
@@jameslovell8682 He didn't fail. A lot of his research is being continued still. Also, as mentioned in the video, we're at the step of trying to figure out how to mass produce solid state batteries.
Nevermind the fact that he developed RAM as well as lithium-ion batteries.
I would also suggest looking up the 'glass battery' which is a solid state battery he developed.
@@Cyan37 Yeah, you're at "the step2 alright!.......In other words, HE FAILED.
@@jameslovell8682 I just mentioned multiple of his achievements. Without him you wouldn't even be able to send this message as RAM is required to run the browser you're using, no matter if phone or pc.
Don't know what makes you feel so entitled to dismiss a man's life achievements like that.
Also, figuring out how to mass produce something is neither his field nor his responsibility. Honestly you seem to be nothing but rage baiting. Bye.
@@Cyan37 Nonsense! MANY people were involved in the "achievements" you mention.
The only problem with the Bagdad Battery being any but an accidental battery is the copper had no external connection as it was originally made. To be a battery it has to have external connections for both + and -. Any experiments being done today modify the original Bagdad Battery design by adding an external connection for the copper bottle inside the device.
... but the Aliens ;)
yea.. this is one of those BS things where someone wanted to make a name for them self and just added the component missing for making it a battery and claim that it was one, and just not a jar of wine with a iron rod in it.
Of cause, when it was found it was not intact, but just a bunch of parts.
If you drop a battery on the ground where it will be exposed to elements for few years you will see that the positive terminal has disappeared
That's a conventional positive battery terminal, with non-evaporating electrolyte. A broken Baghdad battery can be said to have no positive terminal as all the liquid inside is gone. No transfer of electrons.@@madzak9847
Huh, so all the tools missing handles never actually had handles. Axes were actually just metal wedges and were never actually used as axes? That makes so much more sense.
Solid state may take a while to get up to mass production at a competitive price. But I think they may get early use in packs with more than one type of battery. Might allow for very fast charging up to a percentage.
I'm wondering if the spinup of a lot of grid storage megaprojects coming up may aid in streamlining production and bringing down cost.
Getting 3x the storage out of a grid buffer system and having it be more versatile in how fast it recharges and unloads energy is going to be hella attractive for grids.
Especially with how sporadicly surgy solar and wind can be.
Classic power plants tend to have a preset X amount of energy output that doesn't vary much from what you set it for.
This while both solar and wind are very surgy dependent on the current wind or overcast conditions.
A solid state battery system that is able to charge much faster is a far better buffer system for modern renewable energy storage than gen 3 is.
Or companies like Apple, they produce an iphone, which costs 4000 $ but works for 5 days with normal usage without charging.
Or they produce an ultrathin iphone for that price. Or AirPods for 800 $ with 3 times the usage time.
You would find a lot of people buying that.
4:30 I disagree. NiMH cells, developed for [GM's] EV1 were viable for electric cars. About half the energy density of Lithium-ion batteries: but more tolerant of deep discharge cycles (you lose 50% of Li-ion capacity by keeping the SOC between 30 and 80%).
Chevron bought up the EV1 battery patents and sued Panasonic for making batteries for Toyota's RAV4 EV. The use of thousands of 1850 cells by Tesla was actually a Patent work-around. The Li-ion suppliers could not be sued by oil interests because the cells were already widely used in laptop batteries.
I thought a barrier to solid state was cycle life. I haven't heard of anyone overcoming 300 -400 cycles.
Even if the cycle life is low, if they can be made inexpensively enough and there’s a “core fee” for returning the used battery (which it would because the mineral ps in it would be worth a lot of money when recycled into new batteries), the car manufacturers can quite easily make them quickly changeable. The Chevy Bolt battery takes about 2 hours to replace, and it wasn’t designed specifically to be quickly replaceable. The catch is that the cost difference between the new and used battery + labour to change it has to make it economical.
A 300 cycle battery that can go 500 km per charge means 150000 km of use before needing to be changed, which is about when a lot of cars would be scrapped. Even changing at 100,000 km would quite possibly be economically viable.
@@sjsomething4936 I would like to see third party supplier sell replacememts, like you can today just go into an auto parts store for ICE vehicles.
Cycle life is directly tied to dendroid formation, so if we are to believe that the glass-like plating barrier can overcome a large portion of this, then cycle life naturally will increase by default.
Maybe, but bcause you could in theory fit more of them in - you can also cycle between the pack's module cells meaning not all them will be hit at once all the time per charging. aka longer life if you dont fully charge up every time. Also, a cycle is a bit misleading - its more on how quickly can a dendroid form and normally thats because of heat... so if they can stay cooler per charging - that could result in a longer life as well.
@@sjsomething4936 Nio is the EV company that is currently rolling out a SS battery for their vehicles and they are also the company that does easily swappable battery replacement.
No mention of Lithium Ferrous Phosphate Batteries (LiFePO)? ... Sounds like they solve a lot of the problems mentioned with "Lithium" (actually Lithium Tenary) batteries while actually being available in the market *right now*
@They don't have to be the best, they just have to be suitable and not exploding? That's a pretty good reason.
Costing less, Using less environmentally damaging resources? bonus!
But feel free to share a source for your "micro-spreading currents" claim. It helps when people present data
Something not addressed: getting that much power into the battery quickly. Does it use DC, like L3 charging on Li-ion batteries today? Are we going to need 880A charging stations? What's the risk/effect on local grid?
OTOH, if they're reliable enough to be treated like giant capacitors, maybe we can just leave our cars plugged in to assist with power requirements during peak load times, and charge when the load is low, and get a credit from one's power management company.
OTO*O*H, I watched a conventional capacitor (that kept the clock in a timer "alive" even when unplugged,) lose its ability to hold a charge over a decade. How does the new tech hold up to hundreds of cycles?
Most charging will be done slowly overnight or when parked for hours at work. You only use fast charging occasionally on trips. SS batteries will just allow existing peak charge rates to last longer as opposed to tapering down as the pack fills the way they do now.
@@JRP3 That's all already true of Li-ion batteries, as I've done with my ZEO Leaf since 2012. (83,000 miles so far!)
But SS batteries are supposed to charge superfast, like capacitors. Volts x Amps = Watts, so at least *one* of them has to go up to move that much potential "quickly."
I'm not doggin' it, I'm trying to understand it. Will they be able to use the standard J-1772 connector? CHaDeMo? Something new? Or do they have less inherent resistance, and they charge faster because they're simply efficient?
@@stevejordan7275 If you're an EV owner you should have better understanding of DC fast charging characteristics. We currently have 250-350kW capable chargers which can charge for example a 75kWh pack at 3.3 - 4.5C rate. That would allow a theoretical 18 or 13 minute full charge respectively. The problem is that existing cell chemistry has higher resistance and can't sustain those charge rates much beyond around 40% SOC and start to taper down the power as the pack fills up. A solid state cell supposedly would not need to taper the same way and could take the full charge rate until closer to fully charged. That means a realistic 10%-90% charge could happen in 10 minutes or less with existing chargers.
@@JRP3 Well, true, I am an EV owner, but if I already knew, I wouldn't need to ask. ("No such thing as a stupid question," right? Or have I yet again achieved the impossible?) I did know that charging slowed as the battery charged, I didn't know the slowdown was that significant.
Also, it seems my attempt at brevity has resulted in a loss of clarity. If you consider it important enough to impugn my asking, then you are already aware that the ZEO Leaf didn't (and "couldn't") have L3 charging from the factory, and the reason I have experience with it is because I bought the floor model wherein Nissan had installed CHaDeMo during MV so sellers could brag about 30-minute charging in the showroom (even if they couldn't sell the $700 feature until late 2012.)
I also know (by asking the battery engineers at work) that DC charging incurs an overall SOH penalty, and so I have only done so 153 times over the life of my current battery (at least once a year for therapeutic reasons; the higher voltage allegedly breaks the little dendrites that form when charging, the ones described in the video at 6:45.)
So far, it seems to have been highly effective; while my original battery had dropped under 70% SOH four years after we bought the car, the replacement battery (special thanks to Mr. Klee and his class action versus Nissan) is eight years old, and has just recently dropped under 70% SOH, meaning it took twice as long to do so.
*Thus my interest* in the effects of *repeated fast charging*. Do SS batteries suffer negative effects from fast charging as well? I suspect I will have to wait and see, though with a bit of luck, some enterprising soul will engineer a way to swap out the cell packs of my puny 24kWh battery with SS modules. With any luck, they'll last longer, charge faster, cost less, and be readily available.
Also, because I think we are all in this together, I'm interested in learning what I can about it because if my car battery be a power sink for high-demand times, and auto-charge at low-demand, I'll make a point of getting a home charger that will integrate with such a system. It might even prove to be a profit centre for me.
At this point, it may all be vaporware, but I ask because I'm trying to be in the know in advance of when the time that I will need to act.
@@stevejordan7275 You're driving very old battery technology at this point, and a very old vehicle. I'm not sure why you'd want to bother with changing the pack yet again instead of just getting a newer and over all better vehicle. Sure someone could swap out cells, with a lot of labor and cost, which your vehicle isn't worth. But yes supposedly the SS battery chemistry will not have negative effects from fast charging, though already newer existing chemistries have little issue with it. A company called Tesloop ran a Model X shuttle service only using Superchargers and had vehicles go over 300,000 miles on the original batteries. The issue with the old Nissan packs is lack of active temperature control as I recall, all other vehicles us active liquid temperature control for batteries. Also your DC charging sessions don't use "higher voltage" since that would overcharge and damage the cells, it uses higher current, (amps). Your better capacity retention could be the result of improved cell chemistry.
For the difficulty to source Lithium, luckily, the US, Norway and potentially some other western nations have found some "to date" largest new Lithium deposits that outscale previously known deposits by orders of magnitude, on their own land.
And in the discovery of these deposits, we've also learned where we should look for more.
So the sourcing problem may become a thing of the past.
Shortages are literally manufactured to increase price/ profits dude.
And to the discovery of these new large deposits of Lithium in the west, the Western Govts. all say:
NOPE, CAN'T, PROBABLY SHOULDN'T, TOO EXPENSIVE, WONT! ( 'cause those in charge have been 'paid off' by China.)
Lithium is very common but finding a deposit does not automatically make it economical to recover
Love your videos! Keep making them.
1st early batteries probably used for electroplating gold. So, likely it was the battery that came first and then we probably learnt how to make magnets and then eventually this let to electric motors and generators, humanity has really come a long way in such a short time. Amazing.
It's great news, I don't think they will be in any number for a while but once it get's into mass production we will learn and refine the tech much faster. Hopefully in 10 to 15 years phones and cars will be on solid state. For home/grid the current tech is fine but this will push the cost down for long term large scale storage. I think it's a great step forward as air travel is not really possible with current batteries but solid state if three times the energy density would be a game changer. I am opening a lithium mine lol
I'm grabbing a pickaxe lol
Every time I hear about these they are perpetually about 3 years away!
2026 for 1/2 weight, 1/2 cost, 700 mile range (that's a stupid number because it can be made in any size, which means any range), 10 minute charging etc... I'll believe it when I see it!!!
Dude, Great video. Thank you!
Just found this channel and subscribed thank you for covering this
Please update your history. The Baghdad battery is not a battery and never was.
Personally I think these batteries is gonna make their way into handhelds like phones, tablets and smartwatches before EVs only based on the cost to battery size advances in consumers electronics, a flagship phone or smartwatch could tollerate the slight price bump for 2-3x better batteylife, as compared with EVs
LMAO@11:28 I love how we are closer to cracking Fusion than having a permanent moon base.
I wouldn't bet on it...
Google says 2023 BMW M3 is 1730kg and depending on the version the Tesla Model 3 owners manual says it is between 1617kg and 1900kg
The Baghdad Jars are NOT batteries, only one jar was ever found in anyway to be almost battery like. However the other half-dozen or so jars where missing crucial bits to be a battery.
you said in the beginning that solid state battery like fusion always seems 10 years away from commercialization. thats not true for fusion lol, fusion is always said to be 50 years away even by fusion researchers and realistically hundreds of years away from commercialization
Well solid state is already in products you can buy today. Main problem is just mass production so its really is only like 3-5 years away.
Fusion is much closer than it seems. The net power gains recently are extremely promising.
John B Goodenough has had so much impact on modern technology in very varied fields it's crazy
absolutely amazing video, writing a paper on batteries right now and this video and my introduction is eeeily similair
I ride a high power electric scooter and Im foaming at the mouth for these cells. When I can double or more my range and recharge in a matter of minutes I'll be in heaven!!!! SO EXCITING!!!!
Note that internal combustion cars won the race against EVs once the electric starter motor made the dangerous crank superfluous.
Even my mother's 1960s Vauxhall Victor FC had a crank starter... as backup to the electric starter. I think ICEs beat out batteries for convenience and power and weight. Not because of the crank.
Yes. My old Morris Minors had crank starters and cranks are very useful to extend the life of the 12 volt battery. Transverse engine mounting made crank starters rather impracticable.@@adriendecroy7254
Energy density.......more mileage.
@
Ohh look it's captain try hard.....derpa derrp derrp derrrrrrrrr.
Nice comment snotty.
I think the na-ion is going to be usefull for many applacations ,intill the solidstate na ion or others hit the market as it seems to be much more environmentally safe than li-ion , and might take over the market with some improvement's .
All those hype magazines often neglet to talk about the drawbacks. Na-ion have very low cell voltage, making it fairly expensive to make batteries, also not very cheap to make the cells. While the material might be cheap, the production of the cells is not.
A other problem with them is that they have very low efficiency. So its kind of hard to make a case for Na-ion say in favor of LFP just with the motivation that sodium is cheaper to obtain. While, yes it is, it does have drawbacks, and quite a few of them
@@matsv201 3 vs 3.7 v
@@matsv201 there has to be a reason for so many new EV's that are comming out to use Na-ion , lets not assume that all Na-ion cells are the same ,its just the birth of Na-ion , they are only get better in the future . And I think they are going to be much better for the planet !
Any article that starts with the 'Baghdad Battery' touted as the first ever battery is likely poorly researched overall and not worth watching further. The idea that the 'Baghdad Battery' was _actually_ a battery, or some form of electroplating apparatus, is overwhelmingly rejected by archaeologists.
Nice presentation man, and informative .
One request: Could you add science units next to the labels you put on-screen?
No , we will stick Californian Fur Seal units.
You may be able to find an online converter to convert Californian Fur Seal to Elephant or maybe London Bus
To most Americans, science means, believing that Satan put dinosaur bones into the ground, to test the faith of Christians, so give him some slack.
Toyota has shown zero evidence that they have any EV battery, let alone a solid state.
Now this would need to come about. The amount of money thrown into battery power is mind-boggling and I approve of it.
Seems like LiPo is doing fine and at a competitive cost.
More expensive solid state may have a place in lightweight sports cars, or more likely drones aircraft etc
Many thanks for this informative video and your use of metric units. Much appreciated. One small suggestion is to use degrees Celsius instead of Centigrade.
Keep up your fine work! 🎉😊
Aren't centigrades those little crawlers with dozens of legs?
Do you mean fahrenheit? Celsius and centigrade are the same thing right?
@@curtcampbell8284Centigrade is obsolete and replaced by Celsius decades ago.
@@mv80401Yep, them guys
😂
Yes, and no. It's not incorrect but it's also not exclusive.
'Centigrade' also accurately applies to Kelvin; the degrees are the same size - just zeroed at a different place.
In my experience when a product (such as batteries) gets to market, somebody is already working on the next version. I'd be interested in knowing what's beyond the current solid state tech.
superconductors
Sodium
Seriously clever rockstar t-shirts!
looking forward to a "Goodenough?" t-shirt.
EVs are already doing 400-500 miles. Bring the solid state battery modules to the market and we'll see then. Talk is cheap.
And the amount of lithium to achieve this is bordering on the obscene
@@stuartburns8657the amount of lithium in the oceans is staggering, in the tens or hundreds of millions of pounds. We just need a way to efficiently and inexpensively extract it. There’s multiple labs working on exactly this, as the first to solve it stands to make billions in profit from licensing the technology.
The big advantage of solid state in vehicles seems to be the ability to charge them much faster than current (ha!) batteries.
That said, I think charger technology will have to improve with them.
I just saw on Monro Live yesterday (9Sept,23) a solid state battery that is 3D printed. It can be any size or shape and whatever voltage is needed. still in development though, I believe.
It did look like they are in production with them. They have only one assebly line true, but its an industrial one.
Stellar video 🎉😊 thank you.
Thanks a lot for providing pros and cons for those batteries. That explain well why they are not in mass market yet and might never be there.
yoshino is already on the market for backup and portable
Nothing prevents you from charging to 100% at a DC fast charger, other than the fact that the closer you get to 100%, the slower the charging goes. People usually stop at 80 just to save time. It's under your control.
They never said you can't charge to 100, they just said that it has diminishing returns past 80 and that's why 80 is the standard for charge time reporting in general, and this is what can now change. Why spend 2 hours charging to 100, when you can spend 1 hour charging to 80. 80 just becomes the new "100".
Your content seems pretty clean. I like it.
I'm a new viewer who would like to stick around and would feel more comfortable eating up your content if you provided sources in the description for ease of fact checking.
But seriously, this is some pretty clean stuff.
Nicely done. First video = subscribed 👍🏽
Said to hear of Johns passing. The electric jet engine is around the corner with solid state battery.
Solid state batteries are a big deal when they actually start coming out for real. That being said, I'll believe Toyota has anything at all whatsoever when I see it. Considering their position on electric vehicles, I doubt they've even started making solid state batteries and they're just straight up lying.
Your opinion may sound harsh but Toyota's history of empty promises backs it up.
The 80% myth, you can only fast charge to 80%. However you can totally charge to 100%, it just has to be done slowly. (Strike 2)
The presenter was careful to say ‘when on a trip’ - the charge rate decreases rapidly above 80% so sure, you could charge to 100% (although probably degrade battery lifetime in the process) but the recharge time would be significantly longer (>hour). On a trip, I covered a lot more ground in a day by recharging to just 80% and stopping more frequently. At home, I slow charge to 100% overnight - works great for 95% of everyday driving around town but obviously doesn’t work for long distance travel.
I think what he meant is that the batteries have to be bigger then what is "usable" to never allow a complete discharge, so your 100% capacity is actually 80% of the true capacity.
Great video, thank you
A slight correction is that the Baghdad Battery is more of a conspiracy theory than actual history. Most likely it was used for other means than a battery. Especially coming from a civilization that did not use electricity. The reason why its known as a conspiracy theory is to justify saying ancient civilizations harnessed electricity and had light bulbs and other modern day technologies. I hope that either gets cut out or a correction comment gets added in the video as a quick and easy fix to a slight mistake.
The only problem is oil companies, they don't want this technology to happen it will be a heavy blow indeed.
First, The Bagdad battery was not a "battery" . sometimes, a jar is just a jar.. Second solid state batteries are like fussion energy, always 10 years away...
It was by definition, a battery. As is a lemon or potato with a penny and a zinc nail in it. You could argue that they didn't *know* they'd made a battery, but considering how easy it is to make one, and that so many inventions were made by accident, it's really not THAT farfetched to believe. Especially when you consider that they wouldn't have had much use for the device, so if they did realize what they'd made, it easily could've just been a weird novelty that was quickly forgotten. (Woah this tingles when you touch it.. neat)
Second.. you really think Toyota and Panasonic would sink 13 BILLION dollars or whatever into the project if there wasn't real promise? Companies don't just throw money away like that
John Goodenough died aged 100 on June 25, 2023, and was the oldest recipient of a Nobel price in 2019.
Yoshino has already released a solid state battery in the form of a portable home power station. It's Yoshino B4000 model boasts 4000 Watts continuous and 6000 Watts peak power. It's about half the size of the Eco-Flow Delta Pro and comparable in power output.
I'm 100% convinced that we'll have grid scale solid state batteries backing up our fusion powered generators. I hope my grand kids enjoy the benefits.
Fusion generators? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😘🤣🤣🤣🤣
Do you also believe in the thoot fairy?
Fusion is only twenty years away…..was fist said in the 1950s. Governments should be funding its research instead of wars. But that’s another issue in itself.
An energy density far greater than TNT, what could possibly go wrong?
I know, right? It's about as stupid as sitting on a thin metal tank of highly flammable liquid!
@@Surestick88 How often does that liquid spontaneously combust?
@@Lizardo451 A Lot more than you think. Far as I know EVs are still consider safer even though there are a ton more ICE cars out there. Problem is the type of fire they create. ICE burns out in mins to hours - EV can take hours to days even weeks. Granted, if they fix the issue of theremal run away - then it doesnt matter. We know the main issue - just did they fix it is the real question. I know Na sloves some of it because it burns it self out before the thermal run away can happen.
@@adr2t The energy density itself is a problem. The more dense the more it is inherently unstable, and dangerous.
@@Lizardo451 I get it, but its not at the same time. Just because it can hold more doesnt mean its less safe. Because you have to answer the question is what is "safe" and "what is unsafe" ranges? That doesnt make sense at all. What you have ot answer is "how can we keep it from leaking into each other" -> thats the only thing that really matters. Answer that means a battery that never runs into issues. Kind of a fun fact, the body holds enough charge to kill someone, but it never doese, the amps are too low for it to matter.
I have nothing against EVs - but the one thing that people seem to ignore (or not understand) is that a "10 minute charge time" requires an INSANE amount of electricity. Let's be as optimistic as possible - let's say you have a small EV with a small battery - say, 50kW hours. That means for your 10 minute charge time, you're pumping 300kW into your car continuously. 300kw is the absolute maximum electrical capacity of 14 good sized suburban American homes. Let's say you have 10 chargers at a station - you'd need the electrical capacity of 140 houses for that one station. I haven't even talked about the fact that the cables would need to weigh over 120 lbs PER FOOT to safely carry that kind of power at EV charging voltages. The infrastructure challenges are far greater than the individual car challenges.
Let's get the battery standard right and get a common type, size, connection fitment etc. so the batteries can be a universal fit so it can be swapped if required . We would then have some of the most powerful companies working together to power and change the world.
Well done! I am very optimistic about the solid state batteries! Its not about how fast we can get EVs, its about how fast we can stop building gas cars.
The Baghdad battery is doubted by reputable archeologists and experts in the culture of the time it was created. The current consensus is that it was not a battery. Otherwise cool developments! I just hope I wont have to have a subscription to every feature in the car.
I’ve heard press release after press release and TH-cam after TH-cam video on how the XYZ company’s battery will shock the world and it is just around the corner. Short answer. “I’ll believe it when I see it”. I’ll just keep maintaining my 2013 Honda CR-V and shoot for 300K miles. That’s probably a lot better for the environment than buying a 4,000 pound EV.
Do the math to learn that a 35 MPG car will burn through 10 tons of gasoline, that turns into 33 tonnes of CO2, over 120,000 miles. 80% of the pollution comes from its operation, not manufacturing. So, if you drive a lot, it's better to replace your gasser with an EV (and sell it to someone else to replace their car with worse MPG).
@@skierpage and how much pollution from making the battery and charging it? How much energy use? How much more power needed to drive a car twice as heavy as combustion-powered? How long does the battery last before it needs to be replaced? Petroleum remains the most energy-dense source of fuel anywhere on the planet. You aren't going to replace it anytime soon.
Besides which, the main source of CO2 production isn't from cars in the first place. Its from industry and power generation. Drivers aren't going to save the planet.
@@SexycuteStudios just because you're unfamiliar with lifecycle analysis, doesn't mean this hasn't been studied to death. All recent studies agree:
- Cambridge/Exeter/Nijmeggen Universities 2020: "Under current conditions, driving an electric car is better for the climate than conventional petrol cars in 95% of the world."
- Eindhoven University 2020: "Electric cars currently on average emit less than half of the CO2 their petrol counterparts do, even when production and energy consumption is taken into account".
- ICTT 2021 : "battery electric vehicles (BEVs) have by far the lowest life-cycle GHG emissions... emissions over the lifetime of average medium-size BEVs registered today are already lower than comparable gasoline cars by 66%-69% in Europe, 60%-68% in the United States, 37%-45% in China, and 19%-34% in India."
- Reuters 2021: ‘IHS Markit['s] "well-to-wheel" study showed the typical break-even point in carbon emissions for EVs was about 15,000 to 20,000 miles, depending on the country’
The only debate is whether the EV repays the hit from adding a 1/2 ton recyclable battery in 30,000 - 15,000 - even 7,500 miles of driving that burn through TONS less fossil fuel.
Twice as heavy? Stop lying: BMW 330i 1,625 kg, Tesla Model 3 1750 kg. Batttery lifetime? Most warranties are 120,000 miles, and the battery doesn't die at 120,001 miles. All those battery recycling startups are waiting for enough EV batteries to actually fail so they can ramp up.
EVs and power generation are two of the easiest sectors to decarbonize, we've actually moving forward on them (yay!), and yet look at the negativity, unfounded objections, and fear that people like you spout over it. Just get out of the way.
Great video! 👍
I respect that you are a highly educated physicist Dr. Miles. With respect, I think you may benefit from speaking with some historians and archeologists regarding the fabled Baghdad Battery. While I'm no fan of consensus legitimizing a hypothesis, most scientists understand that claims made about the Baghdad battery are 99% bullshit.
The Baghdad battery is not a battery. Every credible archaeologist agrees on this. If you are going as far as dedicating an entire video segment to it, the least you could do is to not spread decades-old bogus claims.
There is a difference between archaeologist agreeing on it and physicists and engineers agreeing on it. If it works as a battery , then it is a battery
@@AbdullahKhan-sl7kbexcept it doesn’t LMAOOO
It's not bogus. The fact that you don't know is not his problem. Anyway, the Baghdad battery is a real thing. It's is thought that batteries such as these were used in a form of early electrolysis.
@@chrisbrowne5829 The numerus PHD say otherwise.
@@johnconner4695you mean the numerous people who's careers would look pretty silly if they accepted that maybe they were wrong. Sorry, but archeological science is known for being extremely protectionist on old theories because they can't stand being wrong. Most don't even acknowledge the water damage at the base of the sphinx
Did Gimli just get a Metal Gear Solid sound effect? Ben you are brilliant! 😂
We been waiting.
Being in the US and hearing the nightmares of the charging infrastructure, I don't have range anxiety, I'd have re-charging anxiety.
Every big automaker has recently agreed to adopt the Tesla charge port standard, meaning everyone will now benefit from a unified grid going forward, rather than the separated systems that have been used up until now. Sure there is plenty of room to improve, but this is a major step in the right direction. Besides, the more normal electric vehicles become, the more companies will adopt charge-from-home systems and thus lower cost on those systems, meaning most people especially in suburbs are more likely to not charge during their daily commutes at all. It's mostly in the big urban districts/city centers where such methods are limited. I'd hope the US looks to Scandinavian countries to see how this problem is already mostly solved there, with public chargers available at pretty much all parking lots, and businesses actively encourage electric vehicle use by offering their own charging solutions for their employees and customers. These countries are already 5 years ahead on the electric grid front in urban districts. Adopting their solutions should be quite straight forward, they already proved how to efficiently solve the main problems.
I do 99% of my charging at home overnight while I sleep. For long trips the Tesla supercharger network has been fine.
We have been charging our two Teslas for over three years now and have our own personal “gas” station at home. There is no nightmare charging infrastructure because many people are getting solar at home. I don’t believe people have personal real gas stations at home. If you have a Tesla there is zero charging anxiety for most use cases.
1 minute in, and you are already talking BS about the Bagdad battery.
Well Done, Sir
if you can recharge in 10mins then it opens up the market for city cars with say 150km of range. You could recharge overnight. If you occasionally go on a long drive you stop every hour and a half. The car would be cheaper and lighter.
the "baghdad battery" was almost certainly not a battery at all, and is just a very loose theory nearly universally disbelieved, theres very very little supporting evidence for it being a battery, and significantly more for it simply being a storage vessel for scrolls, which is the leading theory.
If they can pull it off, build up the charging infrastructure, and find a way to put out the lithium fires, I might reconsider EVs as a viable solution to personal transportation.
But you're ok with gasoline engines that catch fire at a much higher rate than BEVs? I guess if they are able to put out the fire before it explodes, then it's fine.
One of the major benefits of solid-state batteries is that they significantly decrease the risk of thermal runaway. Which means that most solid-state battery technologies are inherently safer than the traditional Li-Po. Having said that, no transportable power source in completely safe.
@@bogususer2595 That's an asinine statement. Try looking up EV car fires and how they can't be put out, then look up how easy it is to put out an ICE fire with a small fire extinguisher. Hell, EV fires have destroyed 3 cargo ships full of cars this year because they caught fire on the ocean and couldn't be put out. Talk about open mouth, insert ignorant foot.
@@Kevinjimtheone None can be completely safe, but they need to find a way to extinguish the fires, like ASAP. They are burning down homes, cargo ships, and soon probably buildings and parking structures. They have been popping off like 90s cell phones over the past few years and the fires can't be put out. Entire cargo ships full of cars are left to burn to ash in the oceans because even sinking them wont put it out.
And other than conjecture can you show some proof of this statement? @@ELXABER
a 60kwh battery getting charged in 10 minutes would mean they need really, really thick wires.
the new Model 3 can charge 45kWh in 15 minutes (allegedly), which requires 300kw of draw. To add 60kWh to a battery in 10 minutes requires 400kW. Some stations can already do 350kW charging, so wouldn't need too much thicker of a cable for the final 50kW. Keep in mind, the cables are liquid cooled, so they can handle more current than the same gauge of cable normally could. Tesla's megacharger cables for the semi are quite thick, but not much more than some gas pump hoses. Those currently can do about 750kW. I think we'll be alright on cable thickness for a few more years, but we may need to either beef up the cooling after that point or use something more conductive. Maybe carbon nanotube wire?
the alegedly carried your whole coment.
5kw power is a lot, 50kw is A LOT and having a charging station with 3 spots running at 500kw is something only sensitive and very well thought ofinfrastructure can allow. And thas for 3 stations only... 1,5Mw is like a big solar power plant where almost a foot thick alu cables (DC though) are used.@@thesynthax7948
@@thesynthax7948 thats an awful lot of engineering and power just put into "fast charging".
Frequency mixed with vibration and the cooling process when making glass salt, allows power transfer and stops batteries blowing up and dendrites.
I feel the Baghdad battery was more likely for a fermentation process. Maybe to make vinegar
I don't know why there is even an argument or hesitation when it comes to electric vehicles.
considering the fact that even if you have a gas car it normally will only do about 60 to 80 thousand miles before it needs a oil change, timing belt change, serpentine belt change and various other things.
When you got to stating the benchmark of "can we mass produce these?" I hit the "subscribe" button
There has been channels saying, with high confidence, these been produced in the 2023 area...but not pointing out "this little hurdle"
Anyone remember the days when solid state referred to a primarily semiconductor build equipment? Because if it didn't have glass components, that is to say thermionic state amplification, then it was of a solid state. Glass breaks easily when dropped. The glass valves were therefore not solid state. Tubes for yanks .
"Electric cars can only fast charge to 80%"
That's news to me. I should probably stop supercharging my 7 year old Tesla to 95% when I'm road tripping. One of these days I'm going to start getting reduced mileage. 🙄
It's more that at 80% the charging rate slows way down, managed by the controller to keep the batteries safe and within limits. So you might, for instance, go from 10% to 80% charge in 15-20 minutes, but have to wait another half hour for that last 20%. Same with fast charging smartphones.
There's a safety buffer on EV batteries on the low and high end of it's capacity, so that you never discharge to 0% and never charge to 100%. That buffer is hidden from the user, what you see on the dashboard is not the real capacity of the battery.
I work in manufacturing. You only meet the scheduled goals when you have the best possible engineers with the best possible tools along with a highly robust supply chain. This is a fantasy scenario.
I've been hearing about this since 2019 and around once a year I skim through a video to see if anything new has happened... I guess I'll check back next year then, unless I hear a big news story, or I see these batteries on Amazon.
Toyota has been announcing a solid state battery next year since I think 2018 feel free to fact check me on that. I know for sure they were going to show their prototype at the Olympics that also got delayed for a year due to the global quarantine...
at least 2017
@@justinmallaiz4549 lol and a decade before that it was everyone switching to hydrogen in a couple years.
Baghdad battery was enough voltage for electroplating with…. GOLD!
Love solid state batteries! Did a presentation on them a few months ago, might put a few thousand on the tech market for it
Excellent stuff, well presented. You might look into the meaning of "a line in the sand."
I got into ebikes this year. I'm about to build a 72v bike and the trick is mounting a 72v pack on a bicycle frame lol 😆
It's going to be awesome when these new batteries start to hit the market.