SNK Neo Geo MVS Multicart Improvements (138 in 1)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- This video covers some improvements made to an MVS multicart in order to resolve PCM sound issues on a couple of MV-1FZ MVS systems. The problem seems to be common to the 120 in 1, 138 in 1 and possibly other carts. Often these carts are poorly manufactured and lack bypass caps and voltage regulator etc.
The end result is both of my 138 in 1 carts are now much much better with many previously dodgy sounding games all sounding 100%. These fixes apply to the 120 in 1 as well.
EDIT 13/02/2015 - I've fixed the problem totally today!!! It was 95% better after the work done in this video, but now its 100%
Final fixes here which also apply to the 120 in 1, and 161 in 1:-
• SNK Neo Geo MVS Fixing...
Some simple problems, all caused by cost cutting measures. I'm not surprised they re-cycle the flash ROM's as they would be super expensive to buy new, but saving a couple of pennies by missing out the bypass caps was not a good idea. Interesting about that resistor being used in place of the capacitor, and how it looks like it appears accross multiple boards, so more likely was done on purpose and not just a pick and place error. Anyway good work mate, nice to see you have got it working 100% :)
Yes, it's insane the corners they cut to save a few pence! I would rather they charged £5 more for the thing and built it properly! Today I've been looking at my 120 in 1 and its the same story! Even the 220ohm resistor is there again, across 3.3v and ground again lol. I think these things are assembled by muppets lol. The only thing I can think regards the 220 ohm resistor is that somehow it's perhaps pulling the 3.3v (well, 3.6v via diodes) down a bit somehow?!? I thought you needed 2 resistors for a potential divider!!! But the resistor is clearly in a bypass spot, so all that leaves me with is thinking the pick and place is wrong and has been wrong for a very long time. Maybe someone messed up the schematics or something!?!?
GadgetUK164 I've been thinking about this some more, and I've got a theory lol. I think because the silk screen marking is C21, and the resistor has the text 221 on it, someone has matched up the 21 part of 221 and thought that's where it needs to go lol. What is really scary is I took the 120 in 1 apart this afternoon and it also has a resistor in the same position lol!!!
Hmmm, as multiple models have the resistor, it is possible that it is intentional. A resistor being placed across the power rails like that is just going to draw current. 221 is 220 ohms, so at 3.3v its going to draw 15 milliamps, which is nothing of great significance
arcadeuk Yeah, it seems more like a mistake. I can't see how it would influence anything elsewhere on the cart? The problem hasn't gone away completely - following testing over the last 3 or 4 days I've noticed the odd glitch still in places. It's really odd that it's only PCM audio. I've looked at the schematics for the MVS and AES and I think the YM2610 connects directly to the cart edge there, so it has me wondering if its due to 3.3v logic not driving the YM2610 bus properly. Any ideas on what to try next here? I am wondering if pull ups or pull downs on the data bus might help?
arcadeuk I am thinking of trying 10K pullups (using 5v) to pull the data bus output a little higher? What do you think? I figure if its pulled higher and its purely a voltage problem now (due to 3.3v output levels) then provided its quick enough and doesn't damage the FPGA output, then it would probably sort it?
Hi there! I just fixed mine and it works really good. Musics where horrible in Puzzle Bobble 2. They are now perfect.
Thanks a lot for your hard work!
Nice work as always. I always like when you tear down and work on these multicarts. Your knowledge of electronics is awesome.
Yakuza Games Thanks =) This cart still isn't 100% but it's much better. There's something weird with all these multicarts. The problems with sound are intermittant and since it seems to only related to the YM2610 bus I can't help but wonder if there's a design flaw there, perhaps due to the 3.3v bus levels or something. It's really frustrating!!! I could do with someone more experienced taking a look at the problem in future.
If the 3.3V supply on these boards is running much too high by default, and there's also excessive ripple due to lack of caps, then I wonder if it's bad enough to cause permanent damage to some of the ICs which affects how well the cart can ever work.
If one were to install a proper 3.3V modification to these carts immediately upon receipt, without ever powering them up, I wonder if they would end up working any better. However, if somebody in China is testing them before shipment then it may already be too late.
Hmm... first time I've thought I might not want people to test things before shipment.
Actually, given the dodgy nature of the chips used, maybe there would be some benefit to being able to dial in a slightly higher voltage, like say 3.4V instead of 3.3V. Something that might push dodgier chips into acceptable operation but still within safe tolerances.
Yes, I've wondered about that too! There are a number of issues with these carts - firstly there's the voltage issue, and I have to point out that since there's been the issue raised about 3.3v interfacing with 5v logic its important to note that there are two ways of looking at the 3.3v issue here on these carts. The chips on the cart will live longer with a 3.3v VCC rather than the ~3.6v (at best - could be 3.9v or more if your PSU outputs more than 5v!), but that means the clamping diodes have to work harder as the voltage is reduced to 3.3v. That could also put more stress on the neo chipset, but I am inclined to think that the effect there is negligible and what's likely to die first is the 3.3v chips on the cart. Ideally they would start making these with level translators built in for all the connections between the neo geo and the chips, but they wont do that due to costs etc.
The other main problem with these carts is the chips used are reclaimed (2nd hand), and the ROM images are not always CRC checked by them after assembly, coupled with the fact the ROM images they used have corruptions (in some games). I don't understand why they dont just download the lastest public ROM sets and produce a 161 in 1 + or something with 100% working games. Then even if their build quality is still pants, the demand for their carts would shoot up probably.
Managed to fix mine. I had glitchy graphics. I reflowed all ICs and using unibios 4.0. all works great now. One thing I noticed was upon close inspection of the soldered ICs some were misaligned.
You went to some effort to get just the right amount of solder on the voltage regulator connections. The blobs weren't so large they were shorting the pins, so what did removing some of the solder accomplish (aside from satisfying your professionalism)?
Yes, it's just about making it look tidier - not important at all really.
I remember when SNK released newer AES/MVS carts (fatal fury 2), they have noticable sound problems just like the ones you are having. Chad Okada (SNK) did mention that they use different chipsets to cut manufacturing costs. They have replacements, but they always work with newer hardware systems. Wondering if that has any relations.
There are clamping diodes on the data lines in the MVS? If we wanted to add resistors to the data lines what rating should we go with? 100ohm like other flash carts?
Yes, you could try 100ohm, but It's more than just data lines - all the address lines and many other signals too - many many connections. Pretty much every connection that passes between the two boards that isn't 5v or GND, could need the resistor probably. It's a huge job!
Thanks for the reply Gadget. It is going to be a pain. My idea is to dremel a cut towards the top of the cart connector tracks, then there should be enough room to fit a small 100ohm smd resistor across it and still leave room for the cart connector pins. I looked up schismatics for the MVS but don't see clamping diodes addressed across the data and address lines. You're sure though they are in there on the hardware?
This is what I'm thinking..
imgur.com/a/8r5bM
That's a great idea to cut across all the traces. Might actually work well!
i know this was forever ago but i bet it is the resister and the noise issue is caused by the resister overheating, which lowers its resistance
Resistors like that can be affected by the current and over time change their resistance, I've seen that just recently on an Amiga 4000 board for example. But the sound issue does need the capacitor to fix it - regardless of the resistor.
PS: The same exact issue exists on one or two original SNK carts - when used with specific MVS. King of Monsters 2 is one of them where that cap is sized incorrectly for an MV1FZ.
Is there a reason why a multicart hasn’t been created yet with only original games?
Whole library?
Just a case of no-one has thought about it in China I think... Maybe they cannot find all the ROMs over there, but maybe they just done care what's on the cart!
@@GadgetUK164 they could sell thousands at $500 each.
It makes no sense.
I’ve asked most AliExpress sellers about it, I don’t think they they have contact with programmers/ engineers.
Its very frustrating.
I don’t know much about electronics, but I imagine it’s very possible to do.
BTW, have you tried the V3 161in1 Chinese multicart yet?, is it worth buying?
I have the V1 MVS yellow cart (full of problems).
And 138in1 with dip switch (via converter for AES).
Again…. Full of problems.
METAL SLUG 1 INTRO REMAKE IS READY ON MY CHANNEL GUYS!
I had an issue with SVC Chaos on my Multi Cart, as well as one of the Metal Slug's, they both just reset upon start up, weirdly I have SVC and my original doesn't have the issue, it works fine so as I assumed it's not a power issue, probably just crap ROM dump's.
It's not the ROM dumps because mine works OK and they are all based on the same ROM sets. It's possible you've got bad ROM images in the NVPROMs themselves, or a glitchy NVPROM. But it's also possible the lack of bypass caps and power issues from not using a regulator might be the cause! These carts are pretty crap really - I hope someone creates an everdrive or similar one day. I know it would be pricey but it sure would be worth it...
I don't mind much, I brought it with the idea of jotting down my 20 favorites and then going after the real cart's which I have pretty much done now, I just want Mark of the Wolves, which will cost a fair bit, but at least I'll have all the games I like should the cart die altogether.
I didn't realize the dump was always the same, I thought it was done individually each time, and I'd just got a crappy set of Software ROM's during transfer, I am not overly clued up on stuff like that anyway, so no doubt sound like an idiot.
As for an Everdrive NEO GEO you should try the NEO GEO X, it gets mixed reviews, but once Jailbroken you can play all the NEO GEO ROM's on it as well as NES, SNES, MASTER SYSTEM, MEGADRIVE, GAMEBOY and GBA, I really like mine.
Yeah, I know what you mean - all eggs in one basket etc. They are all created from the same ROM images, but the crappy chips they use are 2nd hand, so some can be iffy.
Oh god, the Neo Geo X!!! Arghhh!!! Joking aside, it looks OK and I wouldnt mind one, but nothing beats the real system. I watched a review today and the video output on TV was quite shocking!!! That said, on the LCD screen it looks pretty good. I really want one of the joysticks to modify it to work with the MVS lol.
There not bad, they are a little lighter in weight, but there really isn't much difference, I've had mine since it was released and it still works great, nice and clicky, although that seems to be one of the major complains, but it takes a regular beating as in at least once a week so it can't be all that shite and I have fists like shovels, so the missus says, ha!
So, this cart will work only with that stupid jamma board?
You can do the DIP switch mod (as I did in one video) or buy the pre-made DIP switch board from nornor1 on the Neo Geo forum (quite cheap, like $20 shipped I think).
Another great video !
PCM data sure is a good contact/continuity test :p
Thanks, yes - you are right about the PCM bus, absolutely! The connectivity on PCM bus was OK. Later I went as far to try 5v pull up or pull down resistors on the YM2610 bus - that made no difference to the remaining sound issues. At the moment most of the sound problems have been resolved, but there are still random intermitant issues with Strikers 1945. It could be that the Fujitsu NVPROM chips are the cause, I have no idea. I really need to get the oscilloscope onto the PCM bus at some point to see if there's anything else going on. What is strange is it seems to result in volume changes on the PCM sounds - ie. PCM volume can be very loud, whereas the other sound channels remain at the same level. If I play original versions of the games there are no sound issues. I wonder what dictates the volume level of the PCM sample, is it noise from on a particular data bit on the bus maybe - I need to look at how the tracks are laid out on the PCB a little more closely. I think a neighbouring trace could be causing noise on one data line.
I sorted it completely today!!! The 120 in 1 and 138 in 1 carts need a 47pF bypass capacitor on the SDPMPX pin of the cart. That fixes the remaining random sound glitches evident on those carts. Strikers 1945+, Pulstar and others now play perfectly =)
can you add to many caps and do harm or the more the merrier?will it hurt anything and can i add round caps
Too many caps is a bad idea and can cause a problem if you add too much capacitance - You just need to add the 100nF caps in any of the positions on the board, and on the M1 and S1 ROMs, and then an electrolytic on the 5v rail and a smaller one on the 3.3v rail. 100uF on the 5v is sufficient, and 47uF on the 3.3v rail is sufficient. And obviously the 2 x 47pF caps are required for the PCM fix. You can use disc type ceramic capaciors, you dont have to use SMD capacitors.
Will have to open up my 120-in-1 and see what's missing!
Yeah, I've taken mine apart today and found a tonne of missing caps. If you do yours make sure you don't populate the 2 on the PRG board (top board) in the bottom left. They seem to be marked as capacitor spots but they are related to some configuration or something and you will get very strange sound. I will upload the 120 in 1 vid when I get time.
GadgetUK164 Thanks, that'd be much appreciated!
Excellent!!
Stranges Pulstar works great on my Super MVS Converter V2 Blue Led version. Play Pulstar on the Multigame 161 IN 1 V1 Banana. Use the Neo Geo AES 3-6 version with the SNK PSU 10V 1A. Others games on it i have problems but that is a common issue with the converter. Have also issues with original SNK fighting games. Use the converter only for Metal Slug games and Shmups. The only letdown there are so many fighting games on the Multigame 161 IN 1 cart. And not Shock Troopers. Magician Lord or NAM and many more. The SNK memory card works with the Multigame 161 IN 1 that’s a plus. Must be buying more original SNK MVS Shmups such as Viewpoint and Alpha Mission 2. Have a original mint dogtag AES Last Resort. That’s the only AES game i got. Have also lose original SNK MVS carts Metal Slug, Metal Slug 2 and Metal Slug X. For Metal Slug X i have not so many power on my AES. Must for that game a Neo Geo AES 3-3 or a 3-4 with 5V 3A. To get it work with the Super MVS Converter V2. Hope that i can buy the MVS carts Shock Troopers and Metal Slug 3. For now i happy with 8 games on the Multigame 161 IN 1 cart. See that the Multigame 138 IN 1 have the same games on it. And the new Multigame 161 IN 1 V2 cart.
There's also the 120 in 1, that has Shock Troopers on there!
@@GadgetUK164 it's a high quality made in Korea. I mean pcb board
. 64in1 neogeo
Hi, thanks for your video ! Are they any reliable Multicards sold on internet ? I am leaning towards the NEOSD but it seems way slower to boot than this 131 in 1 card
All of the multicarts are hit and miss (more miss than hit) - ie. poor quality, poor soldering, reused chips on them, some games have bugs or corruptions etc. If you want a perfect solution the Neo SD is the way to go, but it is expensive compared to a 138 in 1 or 161 in 1. If you do the mods to those cheap multicarts they can be better and last longer, but ultimately they could damage your MVS due to the 3.3v voltage used by the chips on the carts. The Neo SD is safe to use and won't harm an MVS or AES.
oh thanks for all the info ! So the multicards seem to be a no go... I also heard about the pandorabox, which you can plug directly into the mvs baord or jamma card : are all mvs boards plugged into jamma by default ? will this be an emulation system or flash the neogeo mvs roms directly into the hardware ?
The pandoras box just plugs into a super gun - it doesn't connect to the Neo Geo MVS at all. It's just an emulation box with a JAMMA edge. The multicarts are actual game ROMS.
ah ok cool ! So this means the multicard will flash the rom on the real hardware, like the NEOSD does ? In this case why is the neosd so slow to flash a game compared to the multigame ?
The multicarts have a dozens of large ROM chips containing all the games. When you select a game from the menu, the large CPLD chips on the cart route the connections from the MVS to the areas on those ROM chips to connect the MVS to the game you selected. But the chips are old re-used chips, the ROM images for some games have hacks, corruptions or bugs etc.
On the Neo SD they use flash ROM chips. When you select a game the cart flashes the ROM chips with the ROM images from the SD card - that takes time. In theory they could one day put a lot more flash ROM chips on the cart and allow you to program multiple games onto a single cart, but it would still take time.
Damn fine job!
Thanks! =) Problems with PCM were almost completely resolved by the stuff in this video but not quite. In the following video I worked out two 47pF caps needed adding to all these multicarts in order to completely fix PCM.
Hey mate, im considering bying this, put it in my jamma cab's mvs. Does it work on freeplay, even on the selection menu ?My Coin mech is busted !161 works great
I've honestly got no idea! I presume it will because many of the games are originals without a mod to code. I've not got a clue regards the menu board as I have never used it - I just use the DIP switch mod board I made in an earlier video.
Right, thanks anyway ! I guess it will but i read somewhere that it needs coin while in menu. Great cart though, many games missing from the 161 are on this
excellent
how much are these carts?
+David Reid Around $70 on Ali Express!
Do you have a video on how to install one of those digital voltage displays?
I don't unfortunately, but they are extremely simple to do! You can buy them off EBAY (they come in different sizes so its worth measuring where ever you are going to fit it so you get the right size. They just have 2 wires, a red wire for 5v, and a black wire for ground. So you can install it in any old retro system easily, just connect the black wire to your ground and find somewhere (anywhere) on the board where there's 5v and solder the red wire there.
On your MVS PCB where did you solder the 5v?
RaulBillieJean On the MV-1FZ as you look at it face on from the front, there are 2 test point pads on the left hand side at the front and I think one of them is marked 5v. That's where I soldered onto.
oh ok thank you!
Can these carts ruin a system?
From my experience - no, but technically the clamping diodes in the cart could put additional stress on some of the MVS chips. Personally I've been using these multicarts tonnes on various MVS boards over the last 6 or so years and never had an issue.
Hello there! Im from Argentina...I have a 30 in 1 cartridge and it worked fine until one day it started to show graphic glitches... in a random way .. the graphic glitches are always different. In garou the intro is OK but the texts, characters and scenarios are like under their lowest resolution...... same in metal slug... (they were functing perfect when i just bought it and tested recently) in Aero Fighters 2 the resolution is well set, but the objetcs gradually start to show random colors pixel by pixel.. they change even when they are not moving (even in the top score screen) ingame the objects are just garbage constantly changing in animated boxes... other games seem to be fine at the beggining but then all the backgrunds appears totally mixed... THE music & sounds are perfect in this case... i hope to explain myself.. this glitches are like "alive" I mean they don't seem to be corrupted data stored on Cs memories, the problem might be in the program rom maybe or in some part of the way from a memory to another? I hope some capacitor or thing I could change.. sometimes the glitches seem to dissapear and then again they appear again... im not sure what component could be the caussant ... both boards of the cartridge are clean and look the same as the shown on this video... (chinese hand made) can you please throw me a hint to start digging?
PD:I tested this 30 in 1 cartridge with 3 different MVS and with 3 different power suplies (already tested on 3 diferent arcade machines and the problem is the same so its for sure on the cartridge) thank you so much im sorry for the long texting... i tried to explain all i could in one post so to get rid of the problem in one punch ;) (Y)
The fact that they disappear and reappear makes me think you have a bad solder connection somewhere. Perhaps on the CPLD (large square chips). You could try putting some flux on those connections and reflowing them with a soldering iron - but use good quality flux, chip quik flux is good for something like that. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHIP-QUIK-SMD291ST2CC6-NO-CLEAN-FLUX-6-X-2CC-/131596496699?hash=item1ea3c32f3b:g:VH8AAOSwd0BVyf3F
I'm not sure how much it would cost, but I bet lots of people who own these would pay good money to have someone fix them up. It's too bad they aren't just made with higher quality from the start, because considering how much they cost, they probably aren't saving much with all these cutbacks. The glitches end up making people not want to bother with these carts at all.
+Forlorn79 Yes, they should just manufacture them properly. It wouldn't cost much for the additional components vs how the product would be better received. I also think they should take a look at the crappy ROM images they have for some of the games vs what's available to download on the net and come out with a v2 161 in 1 which has fixes to some of the C, and M ROM corruptions. If we can work out how to program the Fujitsu NVPROM chips maybe we will one day be able to 'fix' these carts completely.
Did this correct the missing sounds in League Bowling?
No, the sample is missing from League Bowling - it's the same dump used in the 60 in 1 copy. Same story with NAM-1975 title music, missing samples in title.
As far as League Bowling, the thought occurs to me that the voices are in English (and unintelligible to some audiences) and may have been cut in a bootleg version of the rom intended to be used in South America and / or Asia.
It would allow them to fit more data on a cart by removing something that the intended audience would just find to be gibberish anyway.
As usual, I"m just harmlessly speculating and not actually making a claim that that is what is going on with the carts.
Majestic Lizard hates Google + I don't think that's what they've done - They've used a ripped / corrupt version - possibly off the net, and seemingly the 138 in 1 is using the 60 in 1 ROM (or vice versa). I think they are all made in the same factories anyway tbh. If they really got their act together they could easily put all clean working release versions of games on these carts, but they just don't care.
If we ever find a programmer that will read and write these NVPROM chips I will be all over it in replacing the ROM images with nice clean working games ;) I guess if we could find a datasheet we could in theory just make our own dumper, and then programmer. Some reverse engineering could be done to work out address lines vs data lines fairly easily. The power and ground are the only other things and those are easy to work out. The trick then is to remove the chips one by one, dump them, take a look at how the ROM images are laid out in each chip vs the addressing and then just replace them with nice clean images. Stick the chips back on, update the menu code to change game names and addressing (if required) and voila - one nice multicart with whatever games we choose.
my cart boots straight to test mode, wont load games HELP!
Have you done any mods to it yet?
i fixed it thanks