SNK Neo Geo MVS Fixing Multicart PCM Sound (& Stability) - 120 in 1, 138 in 1, 161 in 1 (& Others)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- A long video covering the mods required to get PCM sound working properly on many of these cheap MVS multicarts. I've covered some old ground here from the previous video on the 138 in 1 cart, in order that it's all in one place. The latest additional bypass caps fix the PCM issues I have been experiencing since I first noticed a problem with NAM-1975 back in November 2013.
I have applied the fixes to 120 in 1, 138 in 1, and 161 in 1. This has completely fixed any sound issues I was experiencing on many games - some I didn't even know were a problem due to how minor the glitches were. Some of the games affected the most were:- Pulstar (on 161 in 1, and 120 in 1), Metal Slug, Blazing Star, Rage Dragons, Strikers 1945+, Neo Turf Masters, KoF (several), and many many others where glitches were very minor.
It is very likely the same fixes need to be applied to many (if not all) of the other MVS Multicarts.
Tested on 5 different multicarts and all 5 are perfect now. I am amazed at how good these carts sound after doing the mods. On the 120 in 1, C3 and C4 on the PRG (top) board need the 47pF bypass caps - those fix SDRMPX and SDPMPX (PCM issues). On the 'new' 161 in 1 board, C5 and C6 are positions for the 2 x 47pF caps, so you don't need to scratch traces to add the PCM fix caps on that newer 161 in 1.
138 in 1 and 120 in 1 pics:-
www.dropbox.co...
161 in 1 pics:-
www.dropbox.co...
120 in 1 Voltage Regulator & Caps
www.dropbox.co...
Confirmed it works on the 150 in 1 as well. (Uses the same board as the 161 in 1).
09/11/2015 - One thing to note, I am not 100% sure whether 47pF is the ideal size for those 2 capacitors. On my 138 in 1 I get no sound issues at all with 47pF capacitors, but I recently played all the way through Pulstar on the 161 in 1 and a couple of times the sound did glitch, but hardly at all and very infrequently. This makes me wonder if 47pF might need changing to 57pF or 37pF etc. When I get more time I will retest with a slightly different size and report back.
21/12/2015 - Very hard to get it to glitch at all when using 47pF caps. I played on the 161 in 1 all weekend and never had a single issue. I think the ambient temperature and humidity is a factor also.
Nice to see your still making videos.Hope you never give up.
120 in 1 Voltage Regulator & Caps (thrown together quickly for someone that asked):-
www.dropbox.com/s/gg6b2gl70d89nmo/120%20in%201.zip?dl=0
Hi I appreciate this is an old video, but do you perform these mods for 138 in 1 carts for other people at all? Im UK based. Cheers
I cannot do customer repairs / mods sorry!
GadgetUK164 Thank you for sharing your experience. I have a new "Shock Troopers" pirate cartridge. So, during the game, the sound can suddenly disappear completely at any moment. Have you had any experience using similar cartridges?
It could be a bad connection on one of the chips on the cart! Or it could be needing the cap(s) I covered in this series - in particular the ones related to PCM. It could also just be bad chips!
@@GadgetUK164 I also have a new '161 in 1' cartridge and I have a different board than in your photos. Can you please tell me which pins on the PCM or connector the capacitors should be connected to?
Glad you got this sorted! Excellent work; thanks for posting the fix.
Soz for the necro on this. Just doing this work on my 120-1 and have fit the caps but when it comes to the voltage regulator I can’t quite see what you did on the vid. You attached it to the underside with the diodes were and ran the wires but I can’t see where you ran the wire to the second board - is it to another regulator? Cheers :)
I cannot remember how I did it on this video - I am guessing I took the 3.3v from the regulator and fed it (via wire) to the other board. On the other board, I think I removed both of the diodes. They were connected originally from 5v to Anode of 1st diode. Cathode of 1st diode went to Anode of 2nd diode. The Cathode of the 2nd diode is where you want the 3.3v wire. I later just fitted another 3.3v regulator to that board and removed the wire (much easier).
Hello, thanx for the work.
Métal slug 5 sound is fixed with this tip in the 138 in 1?
I noticed no problems in Metal Slug 5 after applying the fixes.
@@GadgetUK164 the sound work fine after the tips,thank you very much!!!!
Hello @GadgetUK164, thank you for your wonderful job on this cartridges. For the 100 nF capacitors to be put on the 138 in 1 version, what voltage rating should I buy? Will 25 V be ok or should I buy 50 V ones?
25v is fine! =D
One thing to note - I recently played Pulstar on 161 all the way through and I did notice a couple of minor glitches, so I am not sure 47pF is optimal for this. It might be worth reducing a little, or increasing a little to get it perfect on the 161 in 1. Maybe 37pF or 57pF. The original (early) SNK carts use a 150pF capacitor, but that size causes issues with games that really hammer the PCM bus.
hello from Spain... thanks to you I have decided to buy this cartridge and base mvs jajajaj your fault ... I spend a lot of money ... I've subscribed to your channel ;) ... and if you know anything worth spending 57 or 37 ??
+Toni Cortijo Thanks =D The carts worth getting to start with are the 120 in 1, 161 in 1 and the 138 in 1. Then just buy originals for any of your favourites or anything not on those 3 multi carts.
+GadgetUK164
Hello :-)
This is a useful video :-)
I tried to look at your drop box pics but I cant unzip them....i dont have winzip lol.
So to clarify, to fix a Super 120 in 1 you just fit 2 x 47uf caps on the top pcm board directly separately bridging across pads, 1 at C3 & other at C4, and on the same board underside you fit 100nf separate in straight bridge across at each of the empty pads (about 7 of them) the ones marked with the 'PC' prefix yes?
If so, then are 50V ceramic disc caps suitable for both the 47pf & 100nf's?
Thanks anyway :-)
47pF caps in the C3 and C4 slots on the 120 in 1 board, and yes 100nF caps in all the other cap position spots (under the CPLD chips on bottom of each board, and in the PC slots on both boards - for the 100nF, get 0805 sized caps or similar - you could use ceramic disc caps but they just look messy, but they will work just the same. 50v is fine, basically anything over 3.3v.
GadgetUK164 That is great, thanks for the swift reply / info :-)
Modded a 120 in 1 (Super N in 1) using your guide & Info.
I used ceramic discs in the end as the 0805 smd's looked a little to fiddly for me lol
Works perfect now with no sound issues whatsoever - thanks :-)
How many NEO GEO cart's do you have mate? I just have my 20 favorites now, but it's a nice mixed bag of shooters, sports and the obvious fighters.
If you have a link of your collection send it my way.
I will do a video at some point soon! I've got a pickups video on the way! BTW - I've not forgotten about that ROM I was going to send you - I will soon!
Cheers man, there is no rush, I appreciate it, I am busy myself so know what it is like, and I will definitely do a thank you video with me playing it, that is once I swap it out for RAIDEN and hopefully don't fuck anything up, it's a straightforward enough swap but you never can be 100% with any project, and that and my 600 year old soldering iron, ha, ha!
Hello, I have one of these cheap 161-in-1 carts; the design has been adapted from what I can see to fit into an AES slot, I didn't think it would work as my AES is 10V/1A PAL, quite rare actually the official power brick isn't listed anywhere. I didn't think 1A would be enough to volume to power the cart, and I'd have to figure out how to get more volume into the machine within a tolerance of ~9V - but it works! I've tried about 10 games and they all work. However, without sound. Do you think this could be the cart or just due to not having enough amperage? To be honest, I'm happy with it as a toy, I prefer the real games. Greetings from Lancashire. Robin
I cannot be sure until I see the PCBs used in that cart, but if its anything like the 161 in 1 I have, that has a seperate supply rail just for the Z80 stuff. So if its the same, its possible that some voltage drop on the 5v rail is leading to the Z80 side of the cart not working (ie. no sound). It could also be a faulty cart.
Awesome video. Going to do this as soon as I get a 161 and 138.
Did you ever get anywhere with the programmer and looking at dumping and reprogramming these things to get rid of the garbage and make a COMPLETE cart? So annoying having to buy two. It is just so much easier than swapping carts.
Edit: Just remembered, the 161 v2 is fixed? Did they just rip off your work? :D That is the way of China. No idea about the others though.
No, I've never seen any "affordable" programmer that will work with these NVPROM ICs. The Neo SD came out too, so I don't see the point - accepting that the cost of the Neo SD is a lot!
@@GadgetUK164 So true.... I will never be able to afford a NEO-GEO AES flash cart. I also have the problem of my head thinking "you're spending $800 on that thing, you could buy some more NG games for that. Or an expensive one like Top Hunter." So yeah...hahaha. I did not have that thought with the X7 or sd2snes because I already own hundreds and hundreds of those games.
Exactly what I was looking for.. will do these mods once I get my cartridge. Thanks for taking your time to make this video.
I received my Cartridge now - however it looks totally different and it already has a 3,3V Regulator soldered on the board. I did add some 47pF caps however where needed and also some 100nF. Maybe I got a newer revision ?
@@ryux did the caps fix the sound at all? I have a board version that looks nothing like V1 or V3, it says "3A Nin1" "T201312" and it has a AIC1084-33cm
@@djcalle1975 actually yes.. but the cart died a couple of months later sadly.. those chips are just low quality
Great video! I would like to try myself but how do you scratch the traces? Do you recommend any tool to avoid damaging the PCB?
+Sebastien Ray You can just use a small screwdriver or a craft knife. Just carefully scrape at an angle and the coating comes off easily - it's just solder mask paint.
+GadgetUK164 Thanks, I'll try!
what do you use to remove the left over flux from these boards?
Isopropyl alchohol (IPA)!
Very interesting video. I may need this information in the future if we pick up more multicarts. we seemed to have lucked out with our current one. haven't had any issues. sound is crisp, everything runs properly.
Thanks for posting this video. I own a consolized 2 slot MVS and just purchased the 138-1 cart so I can play Twinkle Star Sprites (cart is obv too crazy expensive these days.) Will I be able to just plug the cart into my 2 slot? I only keep 1 game in my 2 slot at a time. I love my Neo Geo, but I don't know much about hardware. Thank you for your response!
+jared blackawitz The 138 in 1 has a sub board which connects to the JAMMA connection. If you've consolized your system you will need to do the DIP switch mod to the 138 in 1 (which is recommended anyway). You will need to add all the 100nF capacitors to the 138 in 1, and the 2 x 47pF caps to fix sound glitches. If you want to make the cart last a little longer I would swap out the 2 diodes for an AMS1117 voltage regulator on each board as well.
Are these fixes working on Pandora's Box 3 ? Because some games have sound problems, too.
torcid No, the games are emulated on those Pandoras unfortunately. The problem is in the emulation.
Ok that's interesting. I thought the Multi cartridges like the 160in1 are emulating as well and are almost the same as Pandora's Box... For Neo Geo only of course. Thanks 4 info!
No. the actual MVS multicarts (eg. 161 in 1, 120 in 1, 138 in 1) all just use really large ROMS and special routing using CPLD chips to select the data within those ROMs. So you are playing on actual hardware.
The Pandoras box are a Linux based box I think which just contains an emulation core.
I just got the 161-1 and some of the games crashes and resets of his own. can this be fixed ?!
Check your 5v level whilsts its powered and running, if its below 4.9v that will likely be why you are getting the crashes. The other problems with the 161 in 1 are the boards being too wide, which means it makes a bad connection. Shaving the edges of the part of the PCBs that go into the socket can fix that. Also try wiping the cart edges on both sides of both boards with a q-tip and some IPA. Beyond that you could be looking at a bad solder point on one of the CPLD (large square chips) on the boards, or one of the NVPROM chips.
did you end up locking down a optimal cap? also a way to flash your own roms? that would be sweet
+dylbob9000 47pF seems to work fine! Haven't worked out a way to flash the ROMs though - well, not without a $2000 programmer!
aww thats to bad, wonder if there is a service out there that will do the job. that way we can finally get wizard lord on one of these things :D
+GadgetUK164 if you have a model in mind let me know and ill keep a eye out
spent some time looking but this is the only hint at finding a programmer but cant find a price
www.reddit.com/r/electronics/comments/2j1fsj/what_programmer_is_this/
Yeah, looks like you had the same problem I did. The best I could find is $2000 ish, which doesn't surprise me =/ If the datasheet for these chips was available we could make our own dumper / programmer, but that's not easy to find either =/
Amazing how these multicarts were put together.
Gadget can i ask you did you buy your universe bios if you flashed your own what erpom is it
+trigg99 unibios.free.fr/ You can also download the free version (one version behind the current version) from that website and program your own.
Hi there !
Just finished fixing the sound of my 161 in 1, as you suggested.
2 X 47pf caps and voila !....games sound great, as they should !!
Thanks for helping me out ;-)
+Geo Anas No problem - pleased it made a difference for you! I think the size of 47pF might not be ideal for the 138 in 1 - My 161 in 1 is perfect now, and I have 2 of the 138 in 1 carts. On one of the 138 in 1 carts the 47pF caps work fine for all games, but on my other 138 in 1 just occasionally, very rarely when playing Last Resort it some times glitches on the title music when the weather is warm... Very strange that weather affects it but it's only on Last Resort and only with 1 of the 2 carts. I suspect on the 138 in 1 it probably needs to be slightly different size, maybe 52pF or something.
+GadgetUK164 Very odd, indeed ....
That resistor is there, probably, to get the load always in balance because they are on the cheap and are using double diode configuration instead of a proper voltage regulator.
If that is the right place to put the resistor, that is another different matter.
Regards
If I score one of these carts for my single slot MVS ill have to try these fixes if the sound bugs out on me. I'm no electronics expert either, but given my modest skill level, I cant see any real issues with any of the fixes youve tried thus far, including repairs to obvious errors like the bypass cap thats actually a resistor. Anyhow thanks for your videos, always good for a bit of inspiration to bust out the soldering iron. cheers.
No problem! Just take your time if you have do any of the trace scratching mods - I think the 120 in 1 is much easier to mod imo, just because there are bypass cap positions already for the 2 x 47pF caps. Let me know how you get on!
On the 161 in 1 you have to scratch 2 traces (see diagrams in the vid desription up top ^).
You can buy the 138 in 1 now on AliExpress btw. Cheapest place to buy 120 in 1, 161 in 1, 138 in 1 or any other is on AliExpress.
Has to laugh at 1.50 in at the line "my knowledge is limited" .....bloody hell mate you should watch these videos with my brain and you'd truly understand what that is really like! Haha :)
Seem to have a few glitches on my 161 cart but am hoping it's just dirty connectors :)
If you get the sound glitches on Strikers or Pulstar then it will need the caps. In most cases I imagine all these carts need the caps in order to resolve a lot of the glitches. Many people just don't notice them etc. There's also a chance that depending on which MVS / AES you use, you may find the sound issues better or worse. Thanks for the nice comments there, I might sound like I know what I am talking about - often I don't ;)
do u have a solution for the 100 in 1 because its not the same mainboards thx
The principles will be the same. 47pF caps required on the two PCM connections, regulator (optional - will give stability and keep 3.3v chips from being over voltaged, but will increase clamping issues regards 3.3v vs 5v on buses), and adding 100nF decoupling caps where required etc.
thx for your response, i'll do that asap i'm waiting 47pf caps
Thanks for giving me the courage to do the repair myself.
Great video once again. Learning a lot thanks.
hi Gadget i am following your guide for the mvs console and i made a scart lead with your guide and it works but its jumping
Picture every 15 seconds and cant understand why
The neo geo outputs a none standard number of frames per second - some LCD TVs don't like the frequency. I think that's your problem! You could try feeding the sync through a 1K variable resistor (pot / potentiometer). Then try the pot in different positions to see if it's any better. Ultimately you might need to use another TV. Not sure what resistor sizes you are using for R, G, and B but you could try 75 ohm to see if that helps.
Confirmed this fix works on the 150 in 1 as well. Probably some of the lower count carts as well.
it's really hard to make on the 100, i had put 3.3v regulator with the first diode but i have now graphic issues
I must try this on the new 64 in 1. It has NAM 75 on it and the sound is corrupted in cutscenes.
Is there a reliable modder available that can do these fixes for me? These are just a bit out of my skill level...
Maybe post on the neo geo forum - there's bound to be someone on there that can do the mods.
That is great to hear :) I don't have a lot of money and so I simply can't afford to collect for this system, but I still want to be able to enjoy the system and its library of games and so this is the perfect way for me to be able to do that, and I would like to be able to do it safely with the proper mods done to these multicarts. Thanks for the info.
I get graphic glitches on the neogeo boot screen 120 in 1 with unibios 3.2 but i dont get IT with the original bios. Also in pulstar When i take continue
I don't get any issues on Pulstar when I continue?!? I think I see those graphic glitches on unibios but that doesn't really cause any problems.
Yes, you are right! Confirmed - that happens on my 120 in 1 as well! I just never noticed that corruption problem when continuing after you die. I've tested just now on the 161 in 1 again and the 161 in 1 doesn't have that corruption when you continue.
What about 100 in 1 multi cart fix the same or not ?
KAM NA RON If it's the board pictured on this website:- mvs.gotwalls.com/index.php/File:Multigame_100_in_1_series_1_bootleg1_b1_front.jpg
Then yes, it looks like that board doesn't have the 2 x 47pF capacitors on the SDRMPX and SDPMPX lines, so adding them should help fix similar issues.
GadgetUK164 thank i'll try ... but my cart did not like that , U can see on my Channel .
I think the resistor across the 3v3 rail is to provide a minimum load when using the diode voltage dropper rather than the regulator. If there is not sufficient current flowing through the diodes, the voltage across them decreases, and so the 3v3 rail will rise and may damage the chips.
Ah ha!!! That does make sense! Really glad I asked the question, and that you watched the video =) Thanks =)
GadgetUK164 No problem, thanks for the videos.
Useful knowledge, right there.
Majestic Lizard hates Google + Did you get the sound glitches on your MVS with the 138 in 1? eg. Strikers 1945+, Metal Slug 5, Ninja Masters and others? Also, did you notice that Rage of Dragons crashes if you boot in AES mode with Unibios? It does that on both of my 138 in 1's on my MV-1FZ. The game works, I think its protection related or something.
Didn't test Rage of Dragons in AES mode. I'll have to try that. Yes, most of those have distorted sound. It doesn't bother me as I keep the volume low anyway and most of the sound seems to be intact.
I just got one of the 161-in-1 boards myself and it would seem that they've gone made some significant changes to the board, but bizarrely the sticker still says "Series 1".
Here's a link to some pictures of both boards:
www.dropbox.com/s/qdkd16ay1iu7xvu/161-in1.zip?dl=0
There's now a proper voltage regulator put in at the factory and flux doesn't seem to have been applied with a fire hose. However the PCM issue still persists and because of the changes in the board you can't completely apply your fixes. Thus the question I have is that am I correct in my assumption that they just seem to have just renamed some of the pads for the bypass capacitors from "C-number" to "PC-number" and that I can stick 100nF 0805 capacitors onto the same pads?
Yeah, its still got loads of missing caps - I would fit 100nF in any of those empty cap spots. And it also still lacks the 2 x 47pF caps to stop the PCB glitching out on some games - positions C5 and C6 on the top board. And there are still diodes ont the bottom board!!!
GadgetUK164 Thanks for the quick reply!
I will go and get a bucket of 100 nF caps to fill all those empty pads along with a couple of 47 pF ones. A quick count of the number of empty solder pads on my cart came to *20*. However with the way the layout has changed it would seem like adding a voltage regulator to the bottom board is bit harder than what is on your older revision board. Some games like Puzzle Bobble work just fine, but games like Strikers 1945 have sound issues that make your 161-in-1 board prior to fixing it seem completely fine.
The more you look into these boards the more their attempts at cost savings just boggle the mind. It seems like someone did a decent job designing the board, but then the person in charge of actually manufacturing that board decided to scrimp costs as much as possible without completely breaking everything. If this muppet had only bothered to spend 1-2 dollars extra per board on caps and voltage regulators we probably wouldn't be fuming over this here. It's not like we're talking about a massive cost saving over a production run of millions of cartridges, probably just a saving of a few hundred dollars.
Exactly lol! It makes not sense does it? Looking at this latest board - they've got the cap positions there for the 2 x 47pF caps yet they don't fit them lol.
Don't forget to put caps in the unmarked positions under the CPLD chips. Most of the other caps are marked PC prefix, but I noticed the ones underneath have no marking on the board.
You can still easily fit a 3.3v regulator, just remove the diodes first, then scratch some of the ground plane off (test with multimeter to find a ground vs the cart edge ground). Then solder the ground pin of the regulator there, the other 2 pins are 5v and 3.3v out, so its just a case of connecting the 5v pin using a wire to the first pin (anode) of the 1st diode (nearest the cart edge), and the 3.3v output pin just goes to the 2nd pin of the 2nd diode (cathode) - furthest away from the cart edge.
Worth getting some ceramic 100nF caps to bridge over the VCC and GND connections on the M1 and S1 as well - as in the video.
Yes, that's something I'll also have to do.
I really appreciate the quick responses and you making these videos to begin with. If I was american and/or religious I'd call you a godsend.
i just got a 120 in 1 and i have same sound problems plus graphics glitches in pulstar, blazing star and others, no luck, and no matter i do all dip configurations save but all games stuck in level 8
It sounds like that cart has some faults =/
@@GadgetUK164maybe only mine but avoid white 120 in 1
Hi gadgetuk, always enjoy your videos, but of an update I ended up getting a 161 in 1 yellow cart revision 2
wiki.neogeodev.org/index.php?title=161-in-1_Series_1wiki.neogeodev.org/index.php?title=161-in-1_Series_1
I applied 2 47pf smd caps at c5 and c6, replaced all the electrolytic caps with 47uf nichicon 50v caps. And it seems everything works perfectly, sonic wings 3, last resort, etc .... I play all the games on a mvs cbox as sold on AliExpress .
There doesn’t appear to be no crackling, also now the graphics seems to be more stable ie explosion effects are clearly animated. Pulstar has no sound variation.
I haven’t populated the empty cap slots with 100nf caps, do you think that would be necessary. My board is the exact one on neo wiki.
Thanks! Yes, I've seen the newer revision carts - as you say, the same fixes can be applied and the 2 x 47pF caps are easier to do now there are pads for them. You'd think they would stick 2 caps on there tbh!!!! With regards to the 100nF caps under the CPLDs, I would add them personally. It might provide a tiny bit of stability that they might lack without them, but it will probably work OK without them.
GadgetUK164 - Retro Gaming Repairs & Mods thanks will add them and see what happens. Thanks for responding.
thanks Gadget
My 161-in-1 worked fine for about a year or so. Now it reboots a few seconds in the game.
Could be bad solder points on the board, it could also be a faulty chip. These carts suffer poor build quality, and the 5v MVS buses connected to 3.3v chips means there's always a chance they could die at some point anyway.
+GadgetUK164 - Retro Gaming Repairs & Mods Ah OK i see. maybe the neo geo is meant to be played with original games ☺
These carts can work for a long period of time without issue. It's a combination of poor quality and the 3.3v issue. I've still got 6 or so of these carts that I've used a lot and they still work, but they might not last forever. They also use 2nd hand chips on these carts too!
Thank you for the video mate, it seems these are old revisions, I have a board version that looks nothing like V1 or V2, it says "3A Nin1" "T201312" and it has a AIC1084-33cm regulator, it looks like this one: 8bitplus.co.uk/reviews/161-in-1-review-neo-geo/
I am having sound issues on Pulstar and KOF98. Has anyone ever transposed the fixes to this board revision? I can't find anything online
Having tried to trace where GadgetUK adds the caps on my board it seems like they have added actual cap pads but they are unpopulated: C5 and C6!!! 8bitplus.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/mvs-161-in-1/neo_161_inside-2.jpg
I’ve added the caps on the 2 identified spots and will test tomorrow. imgur.com/a/8AJTIFv
That should fix it! Many of the different "in 1" boards have places for those 2 caps, some do not though. On all of them you can apply the same fix (use 47pF capacitors).
hi GadgetUK164 , you have a "step by step" with pics & list of cpas need web page for this fix ? like this, a translation from your words : www.neo-arcadia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53921
difficult to understand for not english friendly, i have the 138 in 1, your dipswitch mode working fantastic and i want to fix the nam 1975 sound issues
There are some photos linked in the description at the top! =D
put a few of the chips under a heat gun. i remember it cleared up one of your other cartridges. after the cap replacement
Didn't need to ;) The 47pF bypass caps that I added in this video sorted all the sound problems out completely!
GadgetUK164
Even League Bowling?
League Bowling is missing a few samples - that is the same on the 60 in 1 also.
eprom
+trigg99 27C1024 is the chip type you need.