CORRECTIONS: Wosik and Evans in 2022 published a paper on Edmontosaurus life history and contained some info I neglected to mention. Most pertinently being that Edmontosaurus may have reached maturity at roughly 9 years of age, and that for the average adult, growth plateaued at around 5500 kilograms. This would imply an average adult Edmontosaurus being smaller than the mass estimate for an average T. rex, not including large outliers. This doesn't completely change the outcome of the discussion however as I used X rex who was substantially larger. doi.org/10.1111/joa.13679 Hope you guys liked the longer video! there was a ton to say on the subject that I glossed over before. Let me know if there's anything I missed and future ideas ofc. Also if the montage of Edmontosaurus getting brutalized wasn't perfectly in sync with the music, it's because "hall of the mountain king" got claimed somehow so I had to use the YT library's version and their replacement audio wasn't very precise.
One note I feel should be mentioned is that edmontosaurus and Tyrannosaurus had very different growth rates. Emontosaurus was thought to have reached sexual maturity and adulthood faster than T-rex. T-Rex would need about 15-20 years to recharge adulthood, spending most of their life as a smaller and more gracile sub-adult. Edmontosaurus would have reached full-size in half that time, around 9 years. Edmontosaurus would more commonly encounter rexes a third of their size at most, which would probably still be a threat (especially if they hunted in packs), but any healthy adult edmontosaurus could probably scare them off.
Edmontosaurus is my favorite dinosaur ever, and I’m tired of herbivores being portrayed as just a bag of meat. However its size alone could knock over a tyrannosaur, and easily smash its guts in. Herbivores in real life are agressive, rightfully so, they have to fend against predators, competitors, territory, food, and offspring, it would be very likely they would just be too massive for a solo rex to beat, as well as if they traveled in large herds.
I can see where you’re coming from but one major thing you guys overlook, is that even the most aggressive herbivores will try to flee when they’re being attacked by carnivores (Even when the herbivore is over twice the size of the predator). Buffalos (Who are largely aggressive), Elephants, Bison, etc. will flee when they’re being attacked when given a chance. Edmontosaurus would likely run away from a Tyrannosaurus, yes even an exceptional size individual. But it will fight back as a last resort. Even if you’re larger than the predator, it’s far better to get away and live without any lethal injuries, especially if you lacked the lethal weaponry of a Ceratopsian or Ankylosaur.
People keep forgetting that Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, and Edmontosaurus evolved specifically to counter the Tyrannosaurus. They probably would've been extremely dangerous to be around in life due to them having to be cautious about a T Rex attack.
Any hunt for a predator is a huge risk. Though it is worth pointing out that T. rex would've been similarly evolved to counter these herbivores. Also the whole thing about ceratopsian horns and ankylosaur clubs being for intraspecific reasons muddies the water more
52:52 Exactly, Edmontosaurus was not a poor defenseless animal that always was bullied by carnivores as is shown in media, but it was not a S tier T-Rex killer niether like the Triceratops or Ankylosaurus, I don't want to sound like a T-Rex fanboy but I have seen that lately Edmontosaurus is being very overrated when the T-Rex was most likely to win 55/45 of the time in my opinion (and that's if it was a large Edmontosaurus specimen like X-Rex)
I completely agree. I wanted to make sure I made that clear towards the end of the video because ecologically speaking, it wouldn't make too much sense. I've seen people say Edmontosaurus absolutely stomps but that just isn't the case for most encounters. Although Triceratops horns being rex slaying weapons is still kind of uncertain. I'd recommend Mark Witton's blog post on the matter.
I just want at least one instance of an Edmonto beating the hell out of an ambushing rex to showcase how powerful they were. They always go down with minimal struggle on screen, just once having the tables turn would be nice. And depicting future instances of predation as more of a struggle than a one sided slam dunk.
Most of the time they would choose to run since there build is endurance running tho a panicked edmontosaures would pose a threat there large size is equal or even slightly larger then trex and they could have Rear kicked and there tails were heavy tho tail smacks are not what the tail was used for but tail slams could work. All in all a edmontosaures would choose running but it can pose a threat if defensive
Keep in mind that predators usually do not go after healthy adults. Their main targets are usually young, sick, or old. A Tyrannosaurus rex would usually not go after a large, healthy edmontosaurus. This is similar with herbivores. Most herbivores usually don't choose "fight first" as any animal does not want to even risk getting any injuries. There may have been even times when well-armed herbivores like Triceratops decided that they didn't feel like charging at a Tyrannosaurus.
God, your stuff is so cool and a clear production of passion. That in itself is beautiful, please never lose that ingredient in your future videos because the love you put into these videos is what makes watching them so delightful. ❤
To give credit to WWD, in the Spirits of the Ice Forest, they at least showed off that the muttaburrasaurus were competently large enough to fend off the australovenator by sheer size alone. The only one that dies is offscreen from natural causes. One almost accidentally crushes a leaellynasaura, then they soon depart. Quite liked how they were portrayed in the episode and they fill a similar role, being large ornithopods like Edmontosaurus.
I do believe that it would usually run away, but if it was cornered, it would have to fight back, of course using it’s massive tail as a defense or rearing up on two legs by making it sell for bigger or etc. the bite wouldn’t bite necessarily because their teeth are so small so they can penetrate a rexes hide so the massive tail would be a good defense weapon
Great video! One note on the Stan specimen, it seems that despite how complete it is and how long ago it’s been found, size estimates for that particular specimen are all over the place especially in regards to body length, with estimates as low as 11.3 meters to some estimates such as those produced by Larson in the 90s and actually most recently in the Greg Paul paper (the 3 species one) that suggest that Stan is THE LONGEST T. Rex known and that it was actually the third most massive after Scotty and Sue. Based on Larsons original description Stan also has the longest femur and tibia, meaning it has the longest legs and is also likely the tallest T.rex. Though given its gracile build it was out-massed by Sue and Scotty.
I don't know how I didn't pick that up. I don't think I was able to find Larson's description (or maybe I wiped it from my memory) but that's very interesting. I find the lower estimates are generally more accepted for the most part but I could be wrong
This video is lowkey so cool, it feels like a documentary almost, thank you for making this :) it's annoying to see herbivores be portrayed as fodder in most media (+ people calling others "fanboys" for speaking against innacurate portrayals, wich is stupid imo lol) so having this video as sortof a "call this out" (?) is great, also your art is really cool
Thanks! That whole "call out" was really just because I got a bit fed up over the discourse throughout the process of this and the preceding videos I made. People always take sides with these when it's more complicated and nuanced and even in the comments there's been some of that.
I honestly think Tyrannosaurus rex would hunt the smaller Edmontosaurus than the much bigger ones since the smaller once are much easier to hunt unlike the bigger Edmontosaurus
The real evidence that we need to find a tyrannosaur or another Therapod is that we need to find a mummy that is the real reason that we need to find an actual mummy and then will know the truth, if it had lips or not, or if it was fully scaly skin, or had filaments on its body
This is kind of relaxing, day dreamed off for a minute in art at school today while listening to this. I'm working on a similar project for my deviant art page, and quickly noticed some coincidental similarities. I wan'ted to go for an origanal story but whatever. Your ending monologue was inspiring. When you have more time, why not do a series like this with other species like triceratops torosaurus or ankylosaurus, I feel they all could use some PROPER time in the spotlite now a day's.
Just a small critique; increase the volume for your voice audio & lower the volume of the music & sound effects. Some of the background sounds muffled out your narrations at times; like the “oof” sound effects partially cutting off your explanations on Stan’s scars.
@ichthyovenator3351 At least you’re one of the few are there that make these educational videos; And actually show and give credit to the research papers & studies to back up what you’re talking about. Unlike certain other Paleo TH-camrs *ahem* prehistoryinthedark *ahem* But no, really we have so many papers, studies and researchers either agreeing or supporting that Hadrosaurs are facultative bipeds ( animals that Normally walk on four legs, but will occasionally get onto two legs); yeah, they have at numerous times in their videos stated that Hadrosaurs like Edmontosaurus were incapable of being bipedal at any time in their lives. I even found a research paper where they Probably got the idea. It was a computer model study made by W I Sellers In 2009; Showcasing quadrupedal and bipedal Locomotion for Edmontosaurus; Including Bipedal Running, And bipedal hopping Like a kangaroo. The Wikipedia page will say that it has disagreement with bipedal running; But the actual paper disagrees with bipedal hopping. I would say that it was just the TH-camr being confused with the paper; If they didn’t keep saying that modern paleontology is stating that Hadrosaur can not be bipedal.
Im using your video for the final sources of notes on Tyrannosaurus for a series called “Your Paleontology Is a Lie” where I tell you everything that’s wrong with Dinosaur toys and you’re a life saver with these papers on muscles, tongues and more. You’re a life saver. My research method is using Wikipedia to start and look at the papers to check the legitimacy of the claim, and look at others to find extra papers I may miss. (I’ll have 650 plus sources)
In any ecosystem, predators specialize in hunting the unfit, the injured, the young, the sick, and the elderly. They practically never mess with a healthy adult in its prime unless it has made a huge mistake, such as wandering too far from the herd, and the predator has superior numbers. So, logically, it'd be dangerous to try to solo a healthy adult Edmontosaurus. T. rex, as awesome as it was, was still likely focused on finding food who was already having a bad day.
The only exception being the predators that just don’t give a f@&k, lol. Like Allosaurus would go after anything dude. Despite whether or not it would be successful.
exactly, people sometimes forget that dinosaurs and especially carnivores aren't just murder machines. yes a T Rex probably had the capability to take on a full grown edmontsaur or a triceratops, but it has absolutely 0 reason to do so and risk injury when it could either pick off a weak animal or just bully another smaller carnivore off a carcass
That's immensely untrue. Healthy adult herbivores are the majority of the population and predators simply have to deal with it. Easier targets are preferable, but they're not necessary. And especially with T.rex, it's very clear that it wasn't above tackling dangerous prey like adult Triceratops, an undoubtedly much more challenging opponent.
In my personal opinion, the average Edmontosaurus doesn’t stand a chance against a Rex in a 1v1. But it didn’t need to, the hadrosaur could easily outrun the Rex in a chase. Which is why the Rex is an ambush predator. Sure, the larger estimates for it could hold it’s own but the average likely probably wouldn’t. But I like Edmontosaurus for it’s uniqueness and diversity, rather than it’s ability to fight the biggest land predator to ever exist.
Unless it’s Like the Zebra and Lion Situation, if a very Heavy and large herbivore would straight up charge at the Rex. It definitely would put the Rex at higher risk. Simply being hit or worse being tripped by it, can definitely cause serious injury. Who knows how likely it would seem, but since this isn’t too uncommon of a situation, at least one or two very aggressive hadros would frighten a Rex if they are undeterred to stand their ground. But this is still very situational
@@thelittleal1212 true but the again, on average, Edmontosaurus would likely prefer to run considering they can. But the larger ones could put up a fight
@@SamuRhino2023 certainly, most of the time, its likely that the prey would always run away unless of certain circumstances. either if its an highly aggressive/territorial male or a protective parent. one thing I also forgot to say is, situations of being attacked by herbivores often occur outside of hunting, and in situations like those, the predator prefers to avoid the conflict by running away
I appreciated the Walking with Dinosaurs and Ballad of Big Al music playing. I watched those shows as a kid when they were new. It was awesome being able to do that! I only wish society would have been cooler at that time but oh well can't have everything in this life. Well put togeather video!
I didn't know anyone besides one bio teacher who had seen any of the walking with series irl until I got to uni where I've met 3 people. I'm just happy the stigma around having a dinosaur obsession has decreased
This matchup is similar to a lion vs a zebra The lion has all the tools to kill the zebra, but the zebra is not helpless, despite not having any flashy defenses. As for who I think would win, there’s 2 ways I see it, in the wild and to the death. To the Death I favor Tyrannosaurus Rex, simply by being more agile and having a massive bite, but in the wild an Edmontosaurus would have all the means to defend itself and send a rex running.
@@ichthyovenator3351exactly, that and they’re also known to be nasty biters, like Edmontosaurus likely was. Both are also huge herd animals, maybe a cool idea if you ever wanna re-do your edmonto design (which it don’t matter yours is amazing), is stripes, not to the extreme of zebras but perhaps just as a distraction when in their herds of hundreds. This would come in handy as the average Edmontosaurus has been calculated at about 5.5T in mass, while the smallest adult rex (Peck’s Rex) was about 6T, and the largest specimens weighing in between 10.5-(possibly) 12T. When running away this would make or harder for Rex’s to pick off an Edmontosaurus.
@@GeneralGoji afaik it's believed stripes likely didn't serve as a means of confusing predators. In Zebras they found that stripes didn't really confuse predators like lions at all, though functions like keeping biting flies away and allowing herd members to recognize one another would still be relevant especially in humid environments like Hell Creek. Tyrannosaurus rex likely has exceptional vision along with color vision and an entire herd of edmontosaurus if in eyeshot is still probably able to be discerned regardless of if they have stripes or not.
Exactly! Part of the reason it took this long for me to make this vid was because I lost interest in the premise. Like I said towards the end, not much nuance in who would win, JFC style thought experiments
I hate it when shows and movies like Jurassic Park/World portrayed herbivores with the exception of triceratops as nothing more than lumbering steak dinners. I'm very sure many of them were like today's elephants, hippos, and rhinos.
The Ouranosaurus in Camp Cretaceous were pretty cool. But yeah I agree, especially how the Indominus rex could just kill fully grown Apatosaurus with no struggle whatsoever. It's honestly kind of ridiculous that it's only Therizinosaurus that got anything. And I guess that "Sinoceratops" in fallen kingdom
Hadrosaur were more like elks there build suggested that it choose running then fighting but even so they can fight back with pushing them away with its body weight edmontosaures was as heavy or even slightly heavier then trex pushing it a way would make it easy for them to run away and a ambushing Rex could face bone breaking damage from a rear kick. Tho hadrosaurs preferd running then violent tho they are not scared to fight back one it needs to
I mean I don't think hadrosaurs were helpless by any means, but their strategy was leaning a bit towards being weaker and making up for it with fast, plentiful egg production, as well as living in groups
It would for sure alltogether avoid a direct confrontation with a trex, I moreso imagine if a Trex is trailing too close behind it, it won't be ashamed or afraid to deliver a REALLY powerful hind leg kick.
Yep, Craniofacial biting and rubbing is something to be considered, especially after Bouabdellah et al did their paper on how sensitive a rex's face was
@@ichthyovenator3351 yeah just like in dinosaur revolution the design of a tyrannosaurus had almost keratin like face, but they put it too much keratin. Maybe they had like keratin on the front of his face.
This was such a nice video, bro! I loved the amount of research and editing that went into this. What about that one sculpture u were making between the eomto and rex?
@@SolimanElshaarawi-be3uq I didn’t really find a way to properly incorporate it into the vid. I should’ve just mentioned it was a lighting reference but it slipped my mind😅
It really seems like nobody paid much attention to Phil Tippett's Prehistoric Beasts. In the series of films a _Tyrannosaurus_ is shown to have killed a duckbilled dinosaur but then loses to an another, after it protects its young. So, yes, while most Paleo-media then and before typically undercast Hadrosaur dinosaurs, idea they're aggressive when necessary is out there.
#1 I don’t see any clips of Waking The T.Rex: The Story Of SUE & the recently released Documentary Film T.Rex anywhere. They also showed the interactions between T.Rex the Predator & Edmontosaurus the Prey. #2 13:24 Who invited Frollo from Disney’s 34th Animated Feature the hunchback of notre dame?
@@archosaur_enjoyer824 Nope, actually Average edmontos were quite small, being around 5.7-6 tons, they would rather flee and use their higher agility and endurance to evade Tyrannosaurus, but when the become larger, they would most likely be able to fight
It's very unlikely that an edmontosaurus could beat a T-Rex in a fight due to the lack of weapons, but they did had plenty of advantages we usually overlook. They're HUGE, for one, even larger then T-Rex. They were faster then the T-Rex. And that alone was enough. Now if a young inexperienced T-Rex was unlucky enough to be trampled then it would for sure die.
Edmontosaures is actually as large or larger so it depends on the individual. But even so trex preferd to not hunt creatures it size or even slightly larger tho Rex more likely perferd hunting eddy them trike since trike is just to much to Handel. Trike was 6 tons in average but its huge horn are very powerful aswell as powerful neck muscles and a frill protecting it and they have found a trike getting as heavy as Rex and edmontosaures tho that’s just a rarw individual so trike was not 10 tons on average but 6 tons
@@ichthyovenator3351 I found it! It’s on the php wiki for edmontosaurus. It states: “Dr. Darren Naish, Prehistoric Planet's lead consultant, later clarified that the idea of Edmontosaurus being twice as fast as T. rex was an error in the narration, and both animals actually had a similar top speed, meaning that, given the modern estimates of the maximum speed of T. rex (which was calculated almost a decade after the studies regarding the running speed of Edmontosaurus, and thus, are more in-line with the current understanding of these animals), Edmontosaurus likely also ran at speeds of around 25 - 30 kilometers (15.5 - 19 miles) per hour, making it easier for a T. rex to catch up to one of these hadrosaurs (though ambushing prey is still more preferable for predators since it would help conserve effort, energy, and time)”.
Edmontosaurus is a huge animal, one that can give any comparably size Rex a lot of trouble in a fair fight. However, predators, if they can help it, do anything but fight fair (imo Prehistoric Planet showcases the advantages available to a Rex and how to implement them, especially with eye sight). While I would've liked to have seen the Edmontosaurus win, it still put up a good fight at the end and resulted in arguably the best hunting scene for Tyrannosaurus Rex. Also, I'm inclined to believe that therapods, not just T-rex, legitimately have the power to take on adult sized prey items as many predators today often punch well above their weight class (within reason that is). Of course, no animal is going to pass up the opportunity to take the easier option, but they wouldn't pass up a meal just solely because a prey-item is fully grown. At the end of the day, I believe the Tyrannosaurus and Edmontosaurus dynamic should be seen as "Tyrannosaurus Rex is an impressive animal for hunting dangerous prey like Edmontosaurus" rather than any direction that resembles an extreme for both sides. I find it funny that when Tyrannosaurus Rex is compared to other theropods it is usually pitted as the undisputed winner, but when compared to prey-items like Triceratops it could easily end in death for Rex.
2:36 I think the re-extinction of InGen edmontosauruses may have had to do with Isla Nublar being overcrowded with carnivores to a higher concentration than a natural environment would have, due to the perception from park management that more teeth = more customers. That or they got the short end of the stick when it came to sharing food sources other herbivores. The island may simply be too small to be a functional habitat for so many species of dinosaur without human intervention. It’s also possible, if a bit of a stretch, m that maybe a significant number of them were killed by the Indominus Rex during its rampage. Whichever explanation, it’s definitely an undersold portrayal of the animal, as you’ve pointed out in your video, I just thought I would throw out some speculation My last theory is some kind of genetic defect in the cloned Edmontosaurus population.
you're theory is interesting. The only actual canon appearance of Edmontosaurus we get is a skull in the rex nest in tlw. I dunno if the high concentration of carnivores would've done so much because the ecology of the movie islands are very different from the more brutal book ones. Also the Parasaurolophus and Corythosaurus absolutely dominating feels like it's only the case because they had cool crests.
@@ichthyovenator3351 thank you! I appreciate that And damn, it never even hit me how little we see of Edmontosaurus in the franchise. Fair point about the island, I hadn’t considered that element. Rule of Cool is definitely always at play with Jurassic Park and other dinosaur content that is entertainment first, and I usually don’t mind this too much, but some species have really not gotten their due as a result. I fully see your point about them choosing the more “dynamic” looking hadrosaurs to be the main features from that subset of dinosaurs; which is a shame because I think Edmontosaurus has its own very unique appearance; somewhere between your conventional hadrosaur and a creature like Iguanadon (which I guess the Disney movie made dino media scared to show for some reason)
I'm gonna be pedantic: 1:16 is supposed to be _Deinonychus_ going after _Tenontosaurus._ That is all. :) (BTW, you know a shit-ton more than I do about this stuff. I just happened to remember that particular show, assuming I remember it correctly.)
I'm just so sad that the name Anatotitan can't be used for another animal even though it's considered invalid - it could've been repurposed for a freakishly large prehistoric duck for example (Gastornis doesn't count lol)
@@ichthyovenator3351 If I were making the rules, a genus name would be up for grabs again if it was synonymised or otherwise invalidated, but I don't make the rules :/
@@ichthyovenator3351 might be worth noting edmontosaurus' size offers another benefit, in its height. Edmontosaurus, especially on two legs would be able to see much farther and above cover better than something like triceratops or ankylosaurus. Combine this with adding more sets of eyes, ears and noses in the form of an entire herd and detecting a predator like a tyrannosaur seems like a likely means of them avoiding becoming prey. Even if tyrannosaurus was more of a pursuit hunter seeing it early and being able to immediately start moving in the other direction would still be a benefit. A good amount of tyrannosaur hunts might just end up failing this way because the edmontosaurus see the rex long before it can ever hope to reach them and trying to reach them again is too much effort.
Triceratops: if tyrannosaurus were to get around your neck… Edmontosaurus:… It might give me some trouble. Triceratops: but would you lose? Edmontosaurus: Nah, I’d win.
Edmontosaurus kick would knockout a rex for a moment or give it a Broken bones. X-rex Edmontosaurus annecten is the largest specimen that it makes most Tyranosaurus small.
@@ichthyovenator3351 YES. U MUST see it. Its a great piece of paleo media. Besides wwd that documentary got me into dinosaurs as a topic and not as movie monsters.
This debate can be ended in one senario. somerandombozo: Could a Edmontosaurus beat T-rex in an actual fight? Me: Could a horse beat a Kodiac bear in a fight? somerandombozo: Um n-no? but I am sure that the horse can put up a fight. Me: Bingo and thats your answer.
@ichthyovenator3351 surprised you responded to my comment and agreed with my point. People usually compare hadrosaurs to moose when they are more similar to the sauropods than the hadrosaurs by niche and the hardosaurs are more simular to horses since like hadrosaurs equids are overlooked in nature despite being one of the most succesful herbivore megafauna like hadrosaurs are. Just because even the largest hadrosaurs can get fumbled by a Rex doesn't mean they are not push overs and get killed by accurate velociraptors. And if we really dictate match ups for the best animal then Marine animals would be our overlords.
@@thebigmanishere the moose comparison is apt simply because edmontosaurus and moose were both the largest herbivores in their respective ranges for the most part. That and horses are more designed for running than an edmontosaurus appears to be. I think lions and zebras might be a better comparison honestly
@@ichthyovenator3351 not really because in their respective range it is the alamosaurus which is the biggest in their range like the moose/bison in their ecosystem. edmontosaurus doesn't really have any defence mechanisms like moose do since they lack antlers and by size bears arn't as big as moose unlike with horses. sure I seen the bears hunt and kill a full grown bull moose but its not a main part of its diet like edmontosaurus is to rex. moose are more compared to sauropods like alamosaurus since both animals are the tallest in their ecosystem and the apex predators would almost never hunt them unless if they are the last option.
@@thebigmanishere Alamosaurus doesn’t make it far enough North to have had that presence. In the southern us sure but especially if this takes place in Canada they wouldn’t be a factor. Also it’s worth noting moose don’t use their antlers as a primary defense mechanism like I outlined in the video
I'm terrible at compressing audio. I've gotten enough complaints that I might just be really good at hearing my own voice bc I was there when it was recorded
Could an Edmontosaurus beat a Trex in a fight? Yes its possible, they certainly have the weight to tip over a rex and the strength to stomp it to death. Is one going to choose to fight and risk injury or death instead of just run away? Not likely but still possible. It also depends on growth cycle as a grown Trex is much more likely to go after a young Edmont instead of going for adults. Also Bearded Vultures (aka lammergeiers) do in fact swallow bones whole, they dont eat just the marrow.
No, but good video though Edmontnosaurus isn't beating a rex on normal scenario nor is it gonna fight back or need to when it doesn't have to because no sane herbivore/ prey item is gonna fight back and sustain major injury to their predator when they don't have it, also there's this thing call numbers in herds and rapid growth which would allow edmontosaurus to stay relevant and alive in its ecosystem without it having to be bigger than it's local predator.
Thanks! I agree that if escape is an option , it'll always be the preferred one just because of risk prevention. There's too many assumptions here though. There isn't the density of individuals you'd expect for large herd behaviour. Horner et al even found lower abundance of Edmontosaurus compared to Tyrannosaurus and didn't find preservation bias to be a huge factor ( at least in that locale). It's also worth noting that the caudal trauma is at least related evidence for a defensive use of the tail. I brought up the size thing because it would be a weird oulier if Hell Creek was one of the only times the largest herbivore was smaller than the largest carnivore. Whether it be modern day or in prehistory this generally isn't the case for terrestrial ecosystems. As for the rapid growth, I didn't actually see anything specifically on that so I might have missed something but I'd be glad to know where that is so I can read it.
@@ichthyovenator3351 It is indeed weird and unusual compared to most terrestrial ecosystems, but the fact of the matter is all the evidence points to Edmontosaurus being smaller than Tyrannosaurus on average. A 2022 paper by Mateusz Wosik examined over 600 Edmontosaurus specimens and found an average size of 5.6 metric tons for the asymptotic adult Edmontosaurus. For Tyrannosaurus, based on skeletal artists like Randomdinos who use Graphic Double Integration to estimate mass, the "average" adult would be 7.5 metric tons or more, which makes it at least a third larger than the average asymptotic adult Edmontosaurus. I don't doubt that there were absolutely humongous Edmontosaurus specimens - there's X-Rex and Becky's Giant both of which exceeded 12 tons if I remember correctly - but one needs to keep in mind that those are just TWO outlier individuals out of a sample size of over 600. P.S. Also, Becky's Giant may not be an Edmontosaurus. There was an SVP abstract in 2023 which postulated that it probably belonged to a Saurolophine.
@@jkjk7423 I completely forgot I had seen that paper! I remember noting down the ecological segregation between ontogenetic stages but must've forgotten to make a note of the paper itself to come back to it. I think that with a sample size that large that it is fairly safe to assume most were of the size postulated. I feel more research in this area would be illuminating
Can it, yes. Would it, no. Escape is much more viable, be it outrunning the rex, finding cover or not being the last in the herd. Intimidation's an option but with a slight size gap seems unlikely to me. In actual combat, herbivores of larger size are often killed by large carnivores. Even adult bull buffalo are killed by single male lions, and buffalo of all life stages make up to 25% of the diet of male lion coalitions. That's an animal with strong limbs, a 3x size difference, impressive horns and a stocky build. Yet even singly a male lion can bring one down in a frontal fight. Even with the size advantage T.rex had much more lethal weaponry we know can deal bone deep wounds into an Edmontosaurus' tail. A bite to the neck, head or limbs would deal such immense damage I can't see the herbivore surviving long afterwards. On paper an Edmontosaurus could bulldoze a T.rex and stomp on it a bunch, sure, but trampling is terribly inefficient and a kicking biting T.rex is more than capable of still dealing heavy or lethal damage. And fossil evidence proves T.rex was really good at taking damage and still going, from their own kind included. But what would happen if the two engaged in an actual fight? We have two strong animals but only one has incredibly lethal jaws that could end a battle in a few bites. I'm also going to be honest, I can't stand when these questions are asked and then the topic is dismissed or "oh I don't like these scenarios".
Buffalo do indeed make up a large portion of many lions' diets and this was actually brought up in Mark Witton's blog as an argument against the evolution of facial horns being for defense. While I definitely agree that a rex bit would be catastrophic in many cases, healed pathologies most likely from attacks exist. Also dinosaurs are weirdly resilient to horrific injury ( as demonstrated by Stan's broken neck) and I don't find it the most unreasonable to assume that an Edmontosaurus that took a bite to the neck MAY have gotten away at least at some point. Also the reason I specified that I don't like these hypotheticals all that much anymore is because it's something I felt as I progressed through this project and I felt it was worth mentioning. I'm not dismissing the premise itself per say but just pointing out that binary "who would win?" scenarios rarely reflect reality and cause a lot of people to pick sides and in many cases view a dinosaur's interest as simply who would be a better fighter. It's part of the reason hadrosaurs languished so poorly in most media in the first place. It's also why I stated that while the largest edmontosaurs could probably be able to stave off an attack, that in most cases, this wouldn't be necessary or beneficial compared to just leaving.
I feel like straight up the Edmontosaurus would win but in natural encounters the red would win cause the tyrannosaurus is most likely intelligent enough to know if it’s big enough to try and attempt to attack and could utilize its environment against it. Similar to tiger attack water buffalos, though the buffalo is stronger the tiger is still successful on around 50% of water buffalo hunts as its able to utilize environmental advantages and the buffalos large size aganist itself.
Makes sense. I think a lot of people do fail to realize that a lot of predation is also a sort of mind game and we see that when wolves or big cats just stop their hunts because the prey turned around and ran towards them.
W video but the only hadrosaur that can kill a tyrannosaurus consistently Is shantungosaurus and edmontosaurus is at least the same size as Tyrannosaurus but there is one estimate for edmontosaurus that is 16-18 metric tons and that is a fragmentary specimen the largest Tyrannosaurus specimen is E.D cope or potentially Bertha? E.D cope is 11.5-13.45 tons
Yeah Shant is definitely a better contender. I do think a rex could still take it down (since most mega predators are capable of hunting things at least somewhat bigger than they are) but it would be significantly more dangerous.
most likely it could move fast for short bursts, but a true run would involve both legs being off the ground at once and I just don't see that happening
@ichthyovenator3351 is more like a quick march, similar to how elephants run. Big animals like that can run, but they do it differently to avoid tiring out quickly. I believe the rex was able to run, but not like its lighter counterparts. Like modern predators, it's likely that it crept up on its intended meal and charged at them when close enough. Bare in mind a lot of the animals it hunted were capable of doing enough damage to end its hunting career, so surprise was crucial. It's scary to think something so massive and insanely powerful was able to move so quietly and must've been really sneaky. You could make a horror film about one and possibly outdo Jaws. I'm guessing if the dinosaurs were too accurate in JP they'd end up with a film kids wouldn't have been allowed to watch.
Oh good, this video doesn’t contain the saying, “T. Rex arms were small because other Tyrannosaurs would bite them off if they were larger!” I mean yea, maybe that was a factor; but what about the weight of the arms? Is that not an obvious answer? “1+1=2, because if you subtract one from three, you get two ones.”
I didn't even realize arm biting was a proposed reason. That feels kind of bizarre since it's not like T. rex was the only megatheropod with tons of intraspecific combat, it just has the best sample size
@@ichthyovenator3351 I remember hearing it from Rickraptor105 in his review of Jack Horner’s “Valley of the T. rex” review, and Mikailodon in his review of the bright side video. I always thought it was a weird statement from them. Again, because why not state the most obvious reason why their arms were so small?
people will always claim that herbivores arent defenseless(whic is true) and will point out to modern animals like lions,buffaloes,wildbeests etc and tend to forget that herbivores tend to leen a lot more on self preservation that standing and fight back in contrarie to the carnivores whic HAVE to put themselves at risk to live, an herd of wildbeests for example a big bovid of extreme success(kind of like the edmonto itself) always runs when faced whit a predator of around its size like a lion,heck even when they fight back its always because all other options are not available or the predator is much smaller than them(like an hyaena)and its usually too late,now the t-rex in this case is even larger in comparison and VERY close to edmonto size and it doesnt even have weapons like horns,a whip like tail,armor,nothing,the rexes have bodies that can whitstand theyr own weight(whic isnt too far off from edmont as said before),i could argue that getting stomped on anywhere on the body but the neck area would result in just a few bruises however the rexes bite was more than capable of killing even the largest of prey considering the insane PSI.
I agree with escape and avoiding confrontation to have been the most common response to a rex by an Edmontosaurus. I don't really agree with they idea that a rex would only get bruises from being stomped by a multi ton animal. Hyaenas have a higher hunting success rate than lions and have a greater bite force so that seems conflicting. Edmontosaurus' tail is proposed to have been used in self defense as I outlined in the video from a few papers detailing it's pathologies and regardless of not having a club or spikes, it seems kind of ridiculous to imply that wouldn't do anything because of the flexibility and the sheer bulk made up by all those ossified tendons. Also the reasoning I gave for this particular interpretation of Edmontosaurus coming out on top was that it was old, more aggressive due to being blinded and more exposed (being partially leucistic and all) and that it was almost definitely larger than the largest known rex by a noticeable margin
CORRECTIONS: Wosik and Evans in 2022 published a paper on Edmontosaurus life history and contained some info I neglected to mention. Most pertinently being that Edmontosaurus may have reached maturity at roughly 9 years of age, and that for the average adult, growth plateaued at around 5500 kilograms. This would imply an average adult Edmontosaurus being smaller than the mass estimate for an average T. rex, not including large outliers. This doesn't completely change the outcome of the discussion however as I used X rex who was substantially larger.
doi.org/10.1111/joa.13679
Hope you guys liked the longer video! there was a ton to say on the subject that I glossed over before. Let me know if there's anything I missed and future ideas ofc. Also if the montage of Edmontosaurus getting brutalized wasn't perfectly in sync with the music, it's because "hall of the mountain king" got claimed somehow so I had to use the YT library's version and their replacement audio wasn't very precise.
Great video, also highly recomend skeleton crew on youtube for their paleontology reviews for pretty damn good citations too.
One note I feel should be mentioned is that edmontosaurus and Tyrannosaurus had very different growth rates. Emontosaurus was thought to have reached sexual maturity and adulthood faster than T-rex.
T-Rex would need about 15-20 years to recharge adulthood, spending most of their life as a smaller and more gracile sub-adult.
Edmontosaurus would have reached full-size in half that time, around 9 years.
Edmontosaurus would more commonly encounter rexes a third of their size at most, which would probably still be a threat (especially if they hunted in packs), but any healthy adult edmontosaurus could probably scare them off.
I should've touched on ontogeny more.
Edmontosaurus is my favorite dinosaur ever, and I’m tired of herbivores being portrayed as just a bag of meat. However its size alone could knock over a tyrannosaur, and easily smash its guts in. Herbivores in real life are agressive, rightfully so, they have to fend against predators, competitors, territory, food, and offspring, it would be very likely they would just be too massive for a solo rex to beat, as well as if they traveled in large herds.
I was like you but it's just pointless now, everybody called me a herbivore fanboy for saying that edmondosaurus can beat t rex
I mostly agree. Although I do think that a fighting Edmontosaurus may have been somewhat of a rare sight compared to just retreating.
@ichthyovenator3351 behavior doesn't fossilize but I gotta give it to you
I can see where you’re coming from but one major thing you guys overlook, is that even the most aggressive herbivores will try to flee when they’re being attacked by carnivores (Even when the herbivore is over twice the size of the predator). Buffalos (Who are largely aggressive), Elephants, Bison, etc. will flee when they’re being attacked when given a chance.
Edmontosaurus would likely run away from a Tyrannosaurus, yes even an exceptional size individual. But it will fight back as a last resort. Even if you’re larger than the predator, it’s far better to get away and live without any lethal injuries, especially if you lacked the lethal weaponry of a Ceratopsian or Ankylosaur.
@@denistyrant ik but we are talking about s face to face
instead of studying im watching this time well spent:)
Thanks for spending your procrastination with me lol
Same here man
My dude, this deserves a million views. So much effort and quality work put into it and it shows. You’ve earned a sub.
People keep forgetting that Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, and Edmontosaurus evolved specifically to counter the Tyrannosaurus. They probably would've been extremely dangerous to be around in life due to them having to be cautious about a T Rex attack.
Any hunt for a predator is a huge risk. Though it is worth pointing out that T. rex would've been similarly evolved to counter these herbivores. Also the whole thing about ceratopsian horns and ankylosaur clubs being for intraspecific reasons muddies the water more
@ichthyovenator3351 yes. These 3 animals weren't invincible.
Damn this felt like an real documentary love it and the art it's perfecto overall amazing vid bro 10/10
Thanks! I was going for a more thoroughly researched project so I'm glad it delivered!
52:52 Exactly, Edmontosaurus was not a poor defenseless animal that always was bullied by carnivores as is shown in media, but it was not a S tier T-Rex killer niether like the Triceratops or Ankylosaurus, I don't want to sound like a T-Rex fanboy but I have seen that lately Edmontosaurus is being very overrated when the T-Rex was most likely to win 55/45 of the time in my opinion (and that's if it was a large Edmontosaurus specimen like X-Rex)
sir i think you mean ankylosaurus and not anquilosaurus
I completely agree. I wanted to make sure I made that clear towards the end of the video because ecologically speaking, it wouldn't make too much sense. I've seen people say Edmontosaurus absolutely stomps but that just isn't the case for most encounters. Although Triceratops horns being rex slaying weapons is still kind of uncertain. I'd recommend Mark Witton's blog post on the matter.
@@lordcrusheryt I'm just imagining an ankylosaurus/aquilops hybrid now
@@ichthyovenator3351 im drawing that now you’ve created a monster
..thats one disturbing monster im imagining.. and thank you for creating it so i can be frightened to death @lordcrusheryt
I just want at least one instance of an Edmonto beating the hell out of an ambushing rex to showcase how powerful they were. They always go down with minimal struggle on screen, just once having the tables turn would be nice. And depicting future instances of predation as more of a struggle than a one sided slam dunk.
Most of the time they would choose to run since there build is endurance running tho a panicked edmontosaures would pose a threat there large size is equal or even slightly larger then trex and they could have Rear kicked and there tails were heavy tho tail smacks are not what the tail was used for but tail slams could work. All in all a edmontosaures would choose running but it can pose a threat if defensive
I have waited a LONGG time for this video
I hope it was worth it :)
Keep in mind that predators usually do not go after healthy adults. Their main targets are usually young, sick, or old. A Tyrannosaurus rex would usually not go after a large, healthy edmontosaurus. This is similar with herbivores. Most herbivores usually don't choose "fight first" as any animal does not want to even risk getting any injuries. There may have been even times when well-armed herbivores like Triceratops decided that they didn't feel like charging at a Tyrannosaurus.
This video goes extremely in depth into this topic (for me at least) and i LOVE IT
I was worried I'd gone to far in lmao
I really enjoyed this video, been looking forward to ur next upload. Thanks Ichthy.
the largest of its group, being able to knock over a t rex and potentially kill it VS big bite
a battle for the ages
LOVE the longer video - I could binge watch hours of your content. Stunning final piece too, I love your design choices
Yeah, I think
Tyrant King Lizard vs Moose Lizard
God, your stuff is so cool and a clear production of passion. That in itself is beautiful, please never lose that ingredient in your future videos because the love you put into these videos is what makes watching them so delightful. ❤
That means a lot!
Loved this video! I’m all for longer content, and this is a fascinating subject with a great piece of art to accompany it. Thank you :)
A near 1hr special!? O my this is good day indeed.
YOY i LOVE this video!! The blue coloration REALLY reminded me of MY Edmontosaurus drawing! I really like your designs of these creatures!
To give credit to WWD, in the Spirits of the Ice Forest, they at least showed off that the muttaburrasaurus were competently large enough to fend off the australovenator by sheer size alone. The only one that dies is offscreen from natural causes. One almost accidentally crushes a leaellynasaura, then they soon depart. Quite liked how they were portrayed in the episode and they fill a similar role, being large ornithopods like Edmontosaurus.
I totally forgot about that!
Yet another master piece by the fish eater himself
Cool Tyrannosaurus Art
This video was a long time coming but my happy to see Edmontosaurus get the justice it deserved!
I do believe that it would usually run away, but if it was cornered, it would have to fight back, of course using it’s massive tail as a defense or rearing up on two legs by making it sell for bigger or etc. the bite wouldn’t bite necessarily because their teeth are so small so they can penetrate a rexes hide so the massive tail would be a good defense weapon
Great video! One note on the Stan specimen, it seems that despite how complete it is and how long ago it’s been found, size estimates for that particular specimen are all over the place especially in regards to body length, with estimates as low as 11.3 meters to some estimates such as those produced by Larson in the 90s and actually most recently in the Greg Paul paper (the 3 species one) that suggest that Stan is THE LONGEST T. Rex known and that it was actually the third most massive after Scotty and Sue. Based on Larsons original description Stan also has the longest femur and tibia, meaning it has the longest legs and is also likely the tallest T.rex. Though given its gracile build it was out-massed by Sue and Scotty.
I don't know how I didn't pick that up. I don't think I was able to find Larson's description (or maybe I wiped it from my memory) but that's very interesting. I find the lower estimates are generally more accepted for the most part but I could be wrong
This video is lowkey so cool, it feels like a documentary almost, thank you for making this :) it's annoying to see herbivores be portrayed as fodder in most media (+ people calling others "fanboys" for speaking against innacurate portrayals, wich is stupid imo lol) so having this video as sortof a "call this out" (?) is great, also your art is really cool
Thanks! That whole "call out" was really just because I got a bit fed up over the discourse throughout the process of this and the preceding videos I made. People always take sides with these when it's more complicated and nuanced and even in the comments there's been some of that.
I honestly think Tyrannosaurus rex would hunt the smaller Edmontosaurus than the much bigger ones since the smaller once are much easier to hunt unlike the bigger Edmontosaurus
The real evidence that we need to find a tyrannosaur or another Therapod is that we need to find a mummy that is the real reason that we need to find an actual mummy and then will know the truth, if it had lips or not, or if it was fully scaly skin, or had filaments on its body
This is kind of relaxing, day dreamed off for a minute in art at school today while listening to this. I'm working on a similar project for my deviant art page, and quickly noticed some coincidental similarities. I wan'ted to go for an origanal story but whatever. Your ending monologue was inspiring. When you have more time, why not do a series like this with other species like triceratops torosaurus or ankylosaurus, I feel they all could use some PROPER time in the spotlite now a day's.
Torosaurus my beloved
Hell Yeah! more of Hell Creek lore!
Project Genesis?
Indeed
@@solar7797 I remember you from there, I was sharkteef if you ever saw him. Dipped eventually, might come back one day idk
Feel more then welcome te come back mate! Glad to still see you around!
Just a small critique; increase the volume for your voice audio & lower the volume of the music & sound effects.
Some of the background sounds muffled out your narrations at times; like the “oof” sound effects partially cutting off your explanations on Stan’s scars.
Yeah I noticed that too.
@ichthyovenator3351
At least you’re one of the few are there that make these educational videos; And actually show and give credit to the research papers & studies to back up what you’re talking about.
Unlike certain other Paleo TH-camrs *ahem* prehistoryinthedark *ahem*
But no, really we have so many papers, studies and researchers either agreeing or supporting that Hadrosaurs are facultative bipeds ( animals that Normally walk on four legs, but will occasionally get onto two legs); yeah, they have at numerous times in their videos stated that Hadrosaurs like Edmontosaurus were incapable of being bipedal at any time in their lives.
I even found a research paper where they Probably got the idea. It was a computer model study made by W I Sellers In 2009; Showcasing quadrupedal and bipedal Locomotion for Edmontosaurus; Including Bipedal Running, And bipedal hopping Like a kangaroo.
The Wikipedia page will say that it has disagreement with bipedal running; But the actual paper disagrees with bipedal hopping.
I would say that it was just the TH-camr being confused with the paper; If they didn’t keep saying that modern paleontology is stating that Hadrosaur can not be bipedal.
Im using your video for the final sources of notes on Tyrannosaurus for a series called “Your Paleontology Is a Lie” where I tell you everything that’s wrong with Dinosaur toys and you’re a life saver with these papers on muscles, tongues and more. You’re a life saver.
My research method is using Wikipedia to start and look at the papers to check the legitimacy of the claim, and look at others to find extra papers I may miss. (I’ll have 650 plus sources)
In any ecosystem, predators specialize in hunting the unfit, the injured, the young, the sick, and the elderly. They practically never mess with a healthy adult in its prime unless it has made a huge mistake, such as wandering too far from the herd, and the predator has superior numbers. So, logically, it'd be dangerous to try to solo a healthy adult Edmontosaurus. T. rex, as awesome as it was, was still likely focused on finding food who was already having a bad day.
More important to get a meal than be flashy
The only exception being the predators that just don’t give a f@&k, lol. Like Allosaurus would go after anything dude. Despite whether or not it would be successful.
exactly, smart predators want to find something to eat, not brings risk to themselves
exactly, people sometimes forget that dinosaurs and especially carnivores aren't just murder machines. yes a T Rex probably had the capability to take on a full grown edmontsaur or a triceratops, but it has absolutely 0 reason to do so and risk injury when it could either pick off a weak animal or just bully another smaller carnivore off a carcass
That's immensely untrue. Healthy adult herbivores are the majority of the population and predators simply have to deal with it. Easier targets are preferable, but they're not necessary. And especially with T.rex, it's very clear that it wasn't above tackling dangerous prey like adult Triceratops, an undoubtedly much more challenging opponent.
This may be your magnum opus.
I must learn your ways of art.
it's definitely the most work I've put into a video. Honestly a tutorial is something I should do
Respects to the ostriches making appearances in this video
In my personal opinion, the average Edmontosaurus doesn’t stand a chance against a Rex in a 1v1. But it didn’t need to, the hadrosaur could easily outrun the Rex in a chase. Which is why the Rex is an ambush predator. Sure, the larger estimates for it could hold it’s own but the average likely probably wouldn’t. But I like Edmontosaurus for it’s uniqueness and diversity, rather than it’s ability to fight the biggest land predator to ever exist.
Unless it’s Like the Zebra and Lion Situation, if a very Heavy and large herbivore would straight up charge at the Rex.
It definitely would put the Rex at higher risk.
Simply being hit or worse being tripped by it, can definitely cause serious injury.
Who knows how likely it would seem, but since this isn’t too uncommon of a situation, at least one or two very aggressive hadros would frighten a Rex if they are undeterred to stand their ground.
But this is still very situational
@@thelittleal1212 true but the again, on average, Edmontosaurus would likely prefer to run considering they can. But the larger ones could put up a fight
@@SamuRhino2023 certainly, most of the time, its likely that the prey would always run away unless of certain circumstances.
either if its an highly aggressive/territorial male or a protective parent.
one thing I also forgot to say is, situations of being attacked by herbivores often occur outside of hunting, and in situations like those, the predator prefers to avoid the conflict by running away
I appreciated the Walking with Dinosaurs and Ballad of Big Al music playing. I watched those shows as a kid when they were new. It was awesome being able to do that! I only wish society would have been cooler at that time but oh well can't have everything in this life. Well put togeather video!
I didn't know anyone besides one bio teacher who had seen any of the walking with series irl until I got to uni where I've met 3 people. I'm just happy the stigma around having a dinosaur obsession has decreased
This matchup is similar to a lion vs a zebra
The lion has all the tools to kill the zebra, but the zebra is not helpless, despite not having any flashy defenses.
As for who I think would win, there’s 2 ways I see it, in the wild and to the death.
To the Death I favor Tyrannosaurus Rex, simply by being more agile and having a massive bite, but in the wild an Edmontosaurus would have all the means to defend itself and send a rex running.
Exactly. I should've brought up zebras in the video. They can 180 a hunt if they just go on the offensive.
@@ichthyovenator3351exactly, that and they’re also known to be nasty biters, like Edmontosaurus likely was. Both are also huge herd animals, maybe a cool idea if you ever wanna re-do your edmonto design (which it don’t matter yours is amazing), is stripes, not to the extreme of zebras but perhaps just as a distraction when in their herds of hundreds. This would come in handy as the average Edmontosaurus has been calculated at about 5.5T in mass, while the smallest adult rex (Peck’s Rex) was about 6T, and the largest specimens weighing in between 10.5-(possibly) 12T. When running away this would make or harder for Rex’s to pick off an Edmontosaurus.
@@GeneralGoji afaik it's believed stripes likely didn't serve as a means of confusing predators. In Zebras they found that stripes didn't really confuse predators like lions at all, though functions like keeping biting flies away and allowing herd members to recognize one another would still be relevant especially in humid environments like Hell Creek.
Tyrannosaurus rex likely has exceptional vision along with color vision and an entire herd of edmontosaurus if in eyeshot is still probably able to be discerned regardless of if they have stripes or not.
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8ah, well my mistake then, I meant it more like specifically when they was scadattling away, not when they stagnant ofc.
TBF for the prey species surviving IS winning
Exactly! Part of the reason it took this long for me to make this vid was because I lost interest in the premise. Like I said towards the end, not much nuance in who would win, JFC style thought experiments
Nice video bro
Wait You upload this 1:00 in the morning!
@@Superx20Memes-f4o7 I uploaded it last night before bed.
Edmontosaurus is one of my favorite dinosaurs like T. rex and Triceratops.
Yes, it's literally the biggest animal in the Hell Creek formation
unless we got an Alamosaurus wandering north
Considering there aren't any sauropods in Hell Creek, that's not too hard of a contest to win in Mesozoic terms
This turned out so good!
29:27 Also, this is the funniest shit I’ve seen in a while lmao
That comment had me reeling when I first saw it
it makes me genuinly angry seeing hadrossaus getting bullied by everything in most media lmao
Indeed
I hate it when shows and movies like Jurassic Park/World portrayed herbivores with the exception of triceratops as nothing more than lumbering steak dinners. I'm very sure many of them were like today's elephants, hippos, and rhinos.
The Ouranosaurus in Camp Cretaceous were pretty cool. But yeah I agree, especially how the Indominus rex could just kill fully grown Apatosaurus with no struggle whatsoever. It's honestly kind of ridiculous that it's only Therizinosaurus that got anything. And I guess that "Sinoceratops" in fallen kingdom
Hadrosaur were more like elks there build suggested that it choose running then fighting but even so they can fight back with pushing them away with its body weight edmontosaures was as heavy or even slightly heavier then trex pushing it a way would make it easy for them to run away and a ambushing Rex could face bone breaking damage from a rear kick. Tho hadrosaurs preferd running then violent tho they are not scared to fight back one it needs to
I mean I don't think hadrosaurs were helpless by any means, but their strategy was leaning a bit towards being weaker and making up for it with fast, plentiful egg production, as well as living in groups
fast development was definitely a huge reason for their success
It would for sure alltogether avoid a direct confrontation with a trex, I moreso imagine if a Trex is trailing too close behind it, it won't be ashamed or afraid to deliver a REALLY powerful hind leg kick.
this is my superbowl.
Good work
Heard that it’s implied that Tyrannosaurus rex had keratin on its face for protection from its own kind
Yep, Craniofacial biting and rubbing is something to be considered, especially after Bouabdellah et al did their paper on how sensitive a rex's face was
@@ichthyovenator3351 yeah just like in dinosaur revolution the design of a tyrannosaurus had almost keratin like face, but they put it too much keratin. Maybe they had like keratin on the front of his face.
This was such a nice video, bro! I loved the amount of research and editing that went into this. What about that one sculpture u were making between the eomto and rex?
@@SolimanElshaarawi-be3uq I didn’t really find a way to properly incorporate it into the vid. I should’ve just mentioned it was a lighting reference but it slipped my mind😅
@ichthyovenator3351 alright. It was still nice to see!
1 hour of peak content
Glad the hour was worth it
I mean Edmontosaurus is not a push over at all, but so is a Rex but like many animals today it would not be a fight to the death.
survival is always the desired outcome
@@ichthyovenator3351 Agreed
Trex would more likely win but damage from a healthy eddy could kill a Rex later on.
@@Manicthecreator yes to an extent
It really seems like nobody paid much attention to Phil Tippett's Prehistoric Beasts. In the series of films a _Tyrannosaurus_ is shown to have killed a duckbilled dinosaur but then loses to an another, after it protects its young. So, yes, while most Paleo-media then and before typically undercast Hadrosaur dinosaurs, idea they're aggressive when necessary is out there.
I haven't seen the full thing unfortunately, only some clips
#1 I don’t see any clips of Waking The T.Rex: The Story Of SUE & the recently released Documentary Film T.Rex anywhere. They also showed the interactions between T.Rex the Predator & Edmontosaurus the Prey. #2 13:24 Who invited Frollo from Disney’s 34th Animated Feature the hunchback of notre dame?
Haven't seen it I guess. Also Hunchback references are always invited here
Btw, X. Rexs current weight estimate is 13.3 tons
For the largest one's
@@archosaur_enjoyer824 yeah, ppl don't realize that there's more than 2 giant edmontos, YPM 616 is underrated (9.3 tons)
@Theriandspinofan001 pretty sure an averege Edmontosaurus could get larger then that but I might be making shit up
@@archosaur_enjoyer824 Nope, actually Average edmontos were quite small, being around 5.7-6 tons, they would rather flee and use their higher agility and endurance to evade Tyrannosaurus, but when the become larger, they would most likely be able to fight
Where's the estimate from?
Finally the real video is here 🙏🙏🙏
Only took an eternity. Enough time that I had to completely overhaul my past research because I wasn't good at it (I'm only marginally better now)
First skeleton crew video, now ichthyovenator?!
What is it? Edmontosaurus week?
Did not realize they uploaded a vid on edmontosaurus, interesting coinkydink
Answer: yes but obviously its not gonna be easy
Basically yeah. It's possible but not the norm and usually not necessary
I see those same iguanas down here in Florida! Thought they were herbivorous monitor lizards when I first saw them
if only there were new world monitors
It's very unlikely that an edmontosaurus could beat a T-Rex in a fight due to the lack of weapons, but they did had plenty of advantages we usually overlook.
They're HUGE, for one, even larger then T-Rex. They were faster then the T-Rex. And that alone was enough.
Now if a young inexperienced T-Rex was unlucky enough to be trampled then it would for sure die.
I think a good analogue would be lions and zebras honestly
Edmontosaures is actually as large or larger so it depends on the individual. But even so trex preferd to not hunt creatures it size or even slightly larger tho Rex more likely perferd hunting eddy them trike since trike is just to much to Handel.
Trike was 6 tons in average but its huge horn are very powerful aswell as powerful neck muscles and a frill protecting it and they have found a trike getting as heavy as Rex and edmontosaures tho that’s just a rarw individual so trike was not 10 tons on average but 6 tons
This is about T rex and Edmontosaurus but i learned that there are multiple species of cassowary
3 to be exact
@@ichthyovenator3351 Ok
AWESOME VID!
1:29 all these documentaries to say nothing of the ones that insist tiny raptors could gang up on this behemoth and kill it with no difficulty
I read somewhere that I can’t remember, but the php edmontosaurus is faster than rex was a mistake on their part
Where'd you hear that? I'd be interested in learning more on that subject because I'm still wondering how they got that
@@ichthyovenator3351 I found it! It’s on the php wiki for edmontosaurus. It states:
“Dr. Darren Naish, Prehistoric Planet's lead consultant, later clarified that the idea of Edmontosaurus being twice as fast as T. rex was an error in the narration, and both animals actually had a similar top speed, meaning that, given the modern estimates of the maximum speed of T. rex (which was calculated almost a decade after the studies regarding the running speed of Edmontosaurus, and thus, are more in-line with the current understanding of these animals), Edmontosaurus likely also ran at speeds of around 25 - 30 kilometers (15.5 - 19 miles) per hour, making it easier for a T. rex to catch up to one of these hadrosaurs (though ambushing prey is still more preferable for predators since it would help conserve effort, energy, and time)”.
God I have been waiting for someone to say this
Was that caiman from Little Ray's? 27:14
A fellow ontarian I see
Edmontosaurus is a huge animal, one that can give any comparably size Rex a lot of trouble in a fair fight. However, predators, if they can help it, do anything but fight fair (imo Prehistoric Planet showcases the advantages available to a Rex and how to implement them, especially with eye sight). While I would've liked to have seen the Edmontosaurus win, it still put up a good fight at the end and resulted in arguably the best hunting scene for Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Also, I'm inclined to believe that therapods, not just T-rex, legitimately have the power to take on adult sized prey items as many predators today often punch well above their weight class (within reason that is). Of course, no animal is going to pass up the opportunity to take the easier option, but they wouldn't pass up a meal just solely because a prey-item is fully grown.
At the end of the day, I believe the Tyrannosaurus and Edmontosaurus dynamic should be seen as "Tyrannosaurus Rex is an impressive animal for hunting dangerous prey like Edmontosaurus" rather than any direction that resembles an extreme for both sides. I find it funny that when Tyrannosaurus Rex is compared to other theropods it is usually pitted as the undisputed winner, but when compared to prey-items like Triceratops it could easily end in death for Rex.
I have to say the video was great
Only critisism I have is that the background music is just a tiny tick to loud
2:36 I think the re-extinction of InGen edmontosauruses may have had to do with Isla Nublar being overcrowded with carnivores to a higher concentration than a natural environment would have, due to the perception from park management that more teeth = more customers. That or they got the short end of the stick when it came to sharing food sources other herbivores. The island may simply be too small to be a functional habitat for so many species of dinosaur without human intervention. It’s also possible, if a bit of a stretch, m that maybe a significant number of them were killed by the Indominus Rex during its rampage.
Whichever explanation, it’s definitely an undersold portrayal of the animal, as you’ve pointed out in your video, I just thought I would throw out some speculation
My last theory is some kind of genetic defect in the cloned Edmontosaurus population.
you're theory is interesting. The only actual canon appearance of Edmontosaurus we get is a skull in the rex nest in tlw. I dunno if the high concentration of carnivores would've done so much because the ecology of the movie islands are very different from the more brutal book ones. Also the Parasaurolophus and Corythosaurus absolutely dominating feels like it's only the case because they had cool crests.
@@ichthyovenator3351 thank you! I appreciate that
And damn, it never even hit me how little we see of Edmontosaurus in the franchise. Fair point about the island, I hadn’t considered that element.
Rule of Cool is definitely always at play with Jurassic Park and other dinosaur content that is entertainment first, and I usually don’t mind this too much, but some species have really not gotten their due as a result. I fully see your point about them choosing the more “dynamic” looking hadrosaurs to be the main features from that subset of dinosaurs; which is a shame because I think Edmontosaurus has its own very unique appearance; somewhere between your conventional hadrosaur and a creature like Iguanadon (which I guess the Disney movie made dino media scared to show for some reason)
What the music name 😂😂
It's all in the description
I WAS NOT EXPECTING THE KATHY HENSLEY CALLOUT
I had to include it lmao. It was too funny not to
I'm gonna be pedantic: 1:16 is supposed to be _Deinonychus_ going after _Tenontosaurus._ That is all. :) (BTW, you know a shit-ton more than I do about this stuff. I just happened to remember that particular show, assuming I remember it correctly.)
Actually the deinonychus in jfc are blue, these are the dromaeosaurus and edmontosaurus
Haven’t even watched the video, but the answer is yes tenfold, this dude could probably crush a Rex with its weight alone.
X rex yeah. The average Edmontosaurus may have a problem tho
My favorite documentary gets an appearance
49:22
super underrated although the rex head kind of unnerves me for whatever reason
Bro stan got his neck snapped and walked it off
Dude was just built different
Yes it could not always but yea
I'm just so sad that the name Anatotitan can't be used for another animal even though it's considered invalid - it could've been repurposed for a freakishly large prehistoric duck for example (Gastornis doesn't count lol)
Dude, the amount of cool names that are just unusable is so sad. I mean seismosaurus is also such a cool name, it sucks
@@ichthyovenator3351 If I were making the rules, a genus name would be up for grabs again if it was synonymised or otherwise invalidated, but I don't make the rules :/
Add Edmontosaurus size alone is bigger than T-Rex I'm sure they can win put T-Rex can win as well❤❤❤ so I say 50/50😊
Edmontosaurus vs Tyrannosaurus 40/60
Triceratops vs Tyrannosaurus 60/40
Ankylosaurus vs Tyrannosaurus 80/20
Alamosaurus vs Tyrannosaurus 95/5
Depends on the individuals, whether there's the element of surprise, how a rex would've hunted, and a whole bunch of stuff. It's up in the air
@@ichthyovenator3351 might be worth noting edmontosaurus' size offers another benefit, in its height.
Edmontosaurus, especially on two legs would be able to see much farther and above cover better than something like triceratops or ankylosaurus. Combine this with adding more sets of eyes, ears and noses in the form of an entire herd and detecting a predator like a tyrannosaur seems like a likely means of them avoiding becoming prey. Even if tyrannosaurus was more of a pursuit hunter seeing it early and being able to immediately start moving in the other direction would still be a benefit.
A good amount of tyrannosaur hunts might just end up failing this way because the edmontosaurus see the rex long before it can ever hope to reach them and trying to reach them again is too much effort.
Triceratops: if tyrannosaurus were to get around your neck…
Edmontosaurus:… It might give me some trouble.
Triceratops: but would you lose?
Edmontosaurus: Nah, I’d win.
Most predators don't usually hunt full grown healthy animals of their size anyway.
Edmontosaurus kick would knockout a rex for a moment or give it a Broken bones.
X-rex Edmontosaurus annecten is the largest specimen that it makes most Tyranosaurus small.
X rex was weirdly big. Considering it was just a tail it's actually nuts
I thought the yellow hadrosaur in the swamp in fantasia was a hadrosaurus
Honestly it might've been. I moreso used it to describe the historical depictions of hadrosaurs in general
Finally
You and me both lmao
*no, NOT BEELZEBUFO NOOOOOOO-*
At least in prehistpric beasts it pulls a win
I haven't seen that actually. Are you referring to the one by Phil Tippett
@@ichthyovenator3351 YES. U MUST see it.
Its a great piece of paleo media.
Besides wwd that documentary got me into dinosaurs as a topic and not as movie monsters.
This debate can be ended in one senario.
somerandombozo: Could a Edmontosaurus beat T-rex in an actual fight?
Me: Could a horse beat a Kodiac bear in a fight?
somerandombozo: Um n-no? but I am sure that the horse can put up a fight.
Me: Bingo and thats your answer.
Fair enough honestly
@ichthyovenator3351 surprised you responded to my comment and agreed with my point. People usually compare hadrosaurs to moose when they are more similar to the sauropods than the hadrosaurs by niche and the hardosaurs are more simular to horses since like hadrosaurs equids are overlooked in nature despite being one of the most succesful herbivore megafauna like hadrosaurs are. Just because even the largest hadrosaurs can get fumbled by a Rex doesn't mean they are not push overs and get killed by accurate velociraptors. And if we really dictate match ups for the best animal then Marine animals would be our overlords.
@@thebigmanishere the moose comparison is apt simply because edmontosaurus and moose were both the largest herbivores in their respective ranges for the most part. That and horses are more designed for running than an edmontosaurus appears to be. I think lions and zebras might be a better comparison honestly
@@ichthyovenator3351 not really because in their respective range it is the alamosaurus which is the biggest in their range like the moose/bison in their ecosystem. edmontosaurus doesn't really have any defence mechanisms like moose do since they lack antlers and by size bears arn't as big as moose unlike with horses. sure I seen the bears hunt and kill a full grown bull moose but its not a main part of its diet like edmontosaurus is to rex. moose are more compared to sauropods like alamosaurus since both animals are the tallest in their ecosystem and the apex predators would almost never hunt them unless if they are the last option.
@@thebigmanishere Alamosaurus doesn’t make it far enough North to have had that presence. In the southern us sure but especially if this takes place in Canada they wouldn’t be a factor. Also it’s worth noting moose don’t use their antlers as a primary defense mechanism like I outlined in the video
Bro why is the background music so loud at some parts of the video?
I'm terrible at compressing audio. I've gotten enough complaints that I might just be really good at hearing my own voice bc I was there when it was recorded
Could an Edmontosaurus beat a Trex in a fight? Yes its possible, they certainly have the weight to tip over a rex and the strength to stomp it to death. Is one going to choose to fight and risk injury or death instead of just run away? Not likely but still possible. It also depends on growth cycle as a grown Trex is much more likely to go after a young Edmont instead of going for adults.
Also Bearded Vultures (aka lammergeiers) do in fact swallow bones whole, they dont eat just the marrow.
No, but good video though
Edmontnosaurus isn't beating a rex on normal scenario nor is it gonna fight back or need to when it doesn't have to because no sane herbivore/ prey item is gonna fight back and sustain major injury to their predator when they don't have it, also there's this thing call numbers in herds and rapid growth which would allow edmontosaurus to stay relevant and alive in its ecosystem without it having to be bigger than it's local predator.
Thanks! I agree that if escape is an option , it'll always be the preferred one just because of risk prevention. There's too many assumptions here though. There isn't the density of individuals you'd expect for large herd behaviour. Horner et al even found lower abundance of Edmontosaurus compared to Tyrannosaurus and didn't find preservation bias to be a huge factor ( at least in that locale). It's also worth noting that the caudal trauma is at least related evidence for a defensive use of the tail. I brought up the size thing because it would be a weird oulier if Hell Creek was one of the only times the largest herbivore was smaller than the largest carnivore. Whether it be modern day or in prehistory this generally isn't the case for terrestrial ecosystems. As for the rapid growth, I didn't actually see anything specifically on that so I might have missed something but I'd be glad to know where that is so I can read it.
@@ichthyovenator3351 It is indeed weird and unusual compared to most terrestrial ecosystems, but the fact of the matter is all the evidence points to Edmontosaurus being smaller than Tyrannosaurus on average. A 2022 paper by Mateusz Wosik examined over 600 Edmontosaurus specimens and found an average size of 5.6 metric tons for the asymptotic adult Edmontosaurus. For Tyrannosaurus, based on skeletal artists like Randomdinos who use Graphic Double Integration to estimate mass, the "average" adult would be 7.5 metric tons or more, which makes it at least a third larger than the average asymptotic adult Edmontosaurus. I don't doubt that there were absolutely humongous Edmontosaurus specimens - there's X-Rex and Becky's Giant both of which exceeded 12 tons if I remember correctly - but one needs to keep in mind that those are just TWO outlier individuals out of a sample size of over 600.
P.S. Also, Becky's Giant may not be an Edmontosaurus. There was an SVP abstract in 2023 which postulated that it probably belonged to a Saurolophine.
@@jkjk7423 I completely forgot I had seen that paper! I remember noting down the ecological segregation between ontogenetic stages but must've forgotten to make a note of the paper itself to come back to it. I think that with a sample size that large that it is fairly safe to assume most were of the size postulated. I feel more research in this area would be illuminating
Can it, yes. Would it, no. Escape is much more viable, be it outrunning the rex, finding cover or not being the last in the herd. Intimidation's an option but with a slight size gap seems unlikely to me. In actual combat, herbivores of larger size are often killed by large carnivores. Even adult bull buffalo are killed by single male lions, and buffalo of all life stages make up to 25% of the diet of male lion coalitions. That's an animal with strong limbs, a 3x size difference, impressive horns and a stocky build. Yet even singly a male lion can bring one down in a frontal fight. Even with the size advantage T.rex had much more lethal weaponry we know can deal bone deep wounds into an Edmontosaurus' tail. A bite to the neck, head or limbs would deal such immense damage I can't see the herbivore surviving long afterwards.
On paper an Edmontosaurus could bulldoze a T.rex and stomp on it a bunch, sure, but trampling is terribly inefficient and a kicking biting T.rex is more than capable of still dealing heavy or lethal damage. And fossil evidence proves T.rex was really good at taking damage and still going, from their own kind included. But what would happen if the two engaged in an actual fight? We have two strong animals but only one has incredibly lethal jaws that could end a battle in a few bites.
I'm also going to be honest, I can't stand when these questions are asked and then the topic is dismissed or "oh I don't like these scenarios".
Buffalo do indeed make up a large portion of many lions' diets and this was actually brought up in Mark Witton's blog as an argument against the evolution of facial horns being for defense. While I definitely agree that a rex bit would be catastrophic in many cases, healed pathologies most likely from attacks exist. Also dinosaurs are weirdly resilient to horrific injury ( as demonstrated by Stan's broken neck) and I don't find it the most unreasonable to assume that an Edmontosaurus that took a bite to the neck MAY have gotten away at least at some point. Also the reason I specified that I don't like these hypotheticals all that much anymore is because it's something I felt as I progressed through this project and I felt it was worth mentioning. I'm not dismissing the premise itself per say but just pointing out that binary "who would win?" scenarios rarely reflect reality and cause a lot of people to pick sides and in many cases view a dinosaur's interest as simply who would be a better fighter. It's part of the reason hadrosaurs languished so poorly in most media in the first place. It's also why I stated that while the largest edmontosaurs could probably be able to stave off an attack, that in most cases, this wouldn't be necessary or beneficial compared to just leaving.
“Hadrosaurs are fodder” bozos when MOR 1142 and Becky’s Giant show up:
a thing that I want to say, the music in your videos are way too loud, sometimes the music totally overpowers your voice
Yeah you're the second person to comment this here. Gotta work on compressing the music audio
Edmontosaurus specifically no but there were some monster hadrosaurs that dwarfed trex in size
Besides Shantungosaurus I can't think of any hadrosaurs larger than Edmontosaurus annectens
I feel like straight up the Edmontosaurus would win but in natural encounters the red would win cause the tyrannosaurus is most likely intelligent enough to know if it’s big enough to try and attempt to attack and could utilize its environment against it. Similar to tiger attack water buffalos, though the buffalo is stronger the tiger is still successful on around 50% of water buffalo hunts as its able to utilize environmental advantages and the buffalos large size aganist itself.
Makes sense. I think a lot of people do fail to realize that a lot of predation is also a sort of mind game and we see that when wolves or big cats just stop their hunts because the prey turned around and ran towards them.
W video but the only hadrosaur that can kill a tyrannosaurus consistently
Is shantungosaurus and edmontosaurus is at least the same size as Tyrannosaurus but there is one estimate for edmontosaurus that is 16-18 metric tons and that is a fragmentary specimen the largest Tyrannosaurus specimen is E.D cope or potentially Bertha? E.D cope is 11.5-13.45 tons
Yeah Shant is definitely a better contender. I do think a rex could still take it down (since most mega predators are capable of hunting things at least somewhat bigger than they are) but it would be significantly more dangerous.
shant is two big for T.Rex
I think the T-Rex was able to run, but only short bursts of speed before it would be tired out.
most likely it could move fast for short bursts, but a true run would involve both legs being off the ground at once and I just don't see that happening
@ichthyovenator3351 is more like a quick march, similar to how elephants run. Big animals like that can run, but they do it differently to avoid tiring out quickly. I believe the rex was able to run, but not like its lighter counterparts. Like modern predators, it's likely that it crept up on its intended meal and charged at them when close enough. Bare in mind a lot of the animals it hunted were capable of doing enough damage to end its hunting career, so surprise was crucial. It's scary to think something so massive and insanely powerful was able to move so quietly and must've been really sneaky. You could make a horror film about one and possibly outdo Jaws. I'm guessing if the dinosaurs were too accurate in JP they'd end up with a film kids wouldn't have been allowed to watch.
Oh good, this video doesn’t contain the saying, “T. Rex arms were small because other Tyrannosaurs would bite them off if they were larger!”
I mean yea, maybe that was a factor; but what about the weight of the arms? Is that not an obvious answer?
“1+1=2, because if you subtract one from three, you get two ones.”
I didn't even realize arm biting was a proposed reason. That feels kind of bizarre since it's not like T. rex was the only megatheropod with tons of intraspecific combat, it just has the best sample size
@@ichthyovenator3351 I remember hearing it from Rickraptor105 in his review of Jack Horner’s “Valley of the T. rex” review, and Mikailodon in his review of the bright side video.
I always thought it was a weird statement from them. Again, because why not state the most obvious reason why their arms were so small?
people will always claim that herbivores arent defenseless(whic is true) and will point out to modern animals like lions,buffaloes,wildbeests etc and tend to forget that herbivores tend to leen a lot more on self preservation that standing and fight back in contrarie to the carnivores whic HAVE to put themselves at risk to live, an herd of wildbeests for example a big bovid of extreme success(kind of like the edmonto itself) always runs when faced whit a predator of around its size like a lion,heck even when they fight back its always because all other options are not available or the predator is much smaller than them(like an hyaena)and its usually too late,now the t-rex in this case is even larger in comparison and VERY close to edmonto size and it doesnt even have weapons like horns,a whip like tail,armor,nothing,the rexes have bodies that can whitstand theyr own weight(whic isnt too far off from edmont as said before),i could argue that getting stomped on anywhere on the body but the neck area would result in just a few bruises however the rexes bite was more than capable of killing even the largest of prey considering the insane PSI.
I agree with escape and avoiding confrontation to have been the most common response to a rex by an Edmontosaurus. I don't really agree with they idea that a rex would only get bruises from being stomped by a multi ton animal. Hyaenas have a higher hunting success rate than lions and have a greater bite force so that seems conflicting. Edmontosaurus' tail is proposed to have been used in self defense as I outlined in the video from a few papers detailing it's pathologies and regardless of not having a club or spikes, it seems kind of ridiculous to imply that wouldn't do anything because of the flexibility and the sheer bulk made up by all those ossified tendons. Also the reasoning I gave for this particular interpretation of Edmontosaurus coming out on top was that it was old, more aggressive due to being blinded and more exposed (being partially leucistic and all) and that it was almost definitely larger than the largest known rex by a noticeable margin