Ian Hislop says UK honours system is 'permanently ludicrous' | Andrew Marr on LBC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ม.ค. 2024
- As calls grow for former Post Office boss Paula Vennells to lose her CBE in the wake of the Horizon scandal, Andrew Marr speaks to Private Eye Editor Ian Hislop. Private Eye were one of the first news outlets to cover the scandal, with Nick Wallis and Richard Brooks' special report uncovering 'How the Post Office wrecked the lives of its own workers.'
Describing the UK honours system as 'permanently ludicrous,' Hislop says that it was 'unbelievable' that Vennells was given a CBE in the first place, given the reporting on the scandal.
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Ian hislop is a national treasure. He is one of the few people in this country who speaks the truth. We are so lucky to have him.
One of the best journalists there is.
100% Agree. I love private eye and everything it stands for.
Absolute clarity provided here.
I would love to see Ian Hislop host question time he wouldn’t let the politicians talk utter nonsense and get away with it.
He has a fifth sense about rooting out issues politicians what hushed up
Giving Paula Vennells a CBE just shows how much of a bubble these people live in. Those sub postmasters had their lives torn to shreds through no fault of their own. Paula Vennells shouldn't have her CBE stripped from her, she should go to jail.
100% she should serve some time, like the post masters did. In addition, take all her money and give it to the post masters. She can live on the state pension.
As should the rest of this criminal Tory cabal. But they won't even receive a slap on the wrist.
@@EmptyGlass99Totally agree.
Why are female leaders of large companies honoured in some way , Dames or CBE's?
justice would be is she could serve the total time that her victims served.
Vennells should lose her CBE, her job and her gold plated pension for perjury and lying to the government
You forget jail She knew what she was doing a dispicable human being.
I wonder if her lawyers have told her not to return it because it would be an admission of guilt ?
Lets face it, she got her CBE for doing her job, Her job was to make sure that the government and more particulay MP's were protected from the scandal, Ed davey being the main recipient.
Imho what’s worse is the fact she was an Anglican minister so on that standing she should have investigated the claims of errors in the Fujitsu system then made a decision to prosecute or not after all innocent till proven guilty is what courts stand on.
Secondly why didn’t the courts have the software checked out before proceeding with any allegations, 1 case of theft ok maybe but 700+ when there was none with the previous accounting system.
Peoples lives,families and reputations have been destroyed and some sadly took their own lives, their blood is on Paula Vennells hands and she should lose her CBE and her assets just like those poor people have and she should certainly serve jail time for perjury as should anyone else involved in the cover up.
@@andybrown8293
I totally again with your comment.
Paula Vennells needs to be in prison.
Agreed deserved to be in prison for perjury under the Perjury Act 1911 and corruption under the Bribery Act 2010.
And her pay masters that honoured her, and showered her with wealth and high positions
Her and many others who actively lied and covered up the truth whilst people were committing suicide, going to prison and losing their homes and livelihoods....what's the betting that after the enquiry which will enrich the lawyers NOT ONE PERSON GOES TO PRISON?
Perverting the course of justice, perjury and corporate fraud.
@@errolbaptiste you can add the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 to the list as well. Notice how Ms Vennells is now saying “…due to the Horizon system” yet at the time she said the the system was perfect, robust, and that it was about “protecting the PO’s brand”. Despicable woman.
Taken her CBE away? She should be thrown in jail
Both.
They will use her as a lightning rod to take all the blame. The rest will slide out from under.
For what? She hasn't broken any law
@@swampy1234 Corporate negligence. Fraud. Believing in the flying spaghetti monster and encouraging others to do the same. I could go on....
I'm not surprised the immediate focus is on "one" individual. Where are the senior management team? Where are the IT experts, both internal and external to Royal Mail?
If so-called transparency is going to emerge, then the spotlight needs to look further afield.
This whole fiasco is a national disgrace.
The latest in a series, too 😂
And yet the sheep will still vote later this year for more of the same.....Consevative, Labour, Lib-Dem.😏
@eddieharris6004 Who should they vote for? Are you standing for election?
@@Test-hw5fn We should make a direct democracy, representational democracy is just too vulnerable to corrupt psychopaths.
@@dexocube Well sit back and wait, because Fujitsu will do it.
She should be in prison. She knew innocent people under her responsibility were being charged and convicted on false grounds and yet she did nothing.
if she didn't know, she should have known. She was paid hundreds of thousands per annum, these people want the wages, the titles , the glory, but never the responsibility nor accountability.
she did more than that she collected boneses hid bh church of england and the tory tried to put her in house of lords for even more protection and got a top job in the nhs on the back of it all as if alll that was needed to grift for.and all that was done well after labour was no longer in power come on do not listen to present tory trying to blame some one any one other for there part .while trying to care in election year .i feel sorry for the victims even more .when the pm tried to get in with a care cup after 14 years of backing paula.
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
Well done to computer weekly and private eye for keeping their work going for years.
BBC Radio 4 also gave this scandal some prominence. There is a reference to them in the ITV drama.
At this point the honours system has effectively turned into giving a gong to the most mendacious and venal people in our society for helping the Tories run the country into the ground.
We have a similar level of irretrievable corruption in the states. IMO. Our public life is quite beyond redemption. We just don't have things like these honors systems.
@@jimpollard9392 yeah, while I hate the honours system, at least it draws attention to the corruption and cronyism, because the honours have to be announced/declared. The same kind of thing happens in the states but the 'rewards' are veiled from the public more so...
And Labour are no better, even their leader is a 'SIR'. ... The whole system is corrupt.
Yes said the war criminal Sir Tony Blair and Saville protector Sir Kier Starmer 😂😂😂😂😉😂. It’s time you learned that the globalists run all aspects of government. Destroying the economies and societies of this country and the whole of the EU is all part of the mandate for those that cannot be mentioned.
Dont forget liebours part in this
The Tories have totally shown how corrupt and worthless our honours system really is.
You do realise that the Post Office Scandal took place between 1999 and 2015 - and for all but 3 years of that time Labour were in power! So Labour Ministers controlled the nationalised Royal Mail from 1997 to 2012 when they lost power. How come Hislop is not condemning them???
Both parties are equally guilty. Sir Phillip Green, Sir Fred Goodwin, both knighted under Labour.
@@jillosler9353 3 years? Don't you mean five? Labour were kicked out in 2010. Please, do some research before you start typing.
@@aalan4296 One small problem with that. The Tories have done sod all about this since 2010 and have actively colluded/conspired with the Post Office to blacken the names of the sub-postmasters for the past 14 years. Tear the Blair/Brown years to shreds all you want... But they (and Labour) are not the ones who have been in charge these past 14 years. The Tories have.
@@jackdubz4247 I agree they are both as bad as one another. She should be stripped of her honour. But it needs to go further, Phillip Green needs to be stripped, then Dame Alison Rose plus many others. People like Sir Nigel Rudd who effectively has sold out so much of the country, should have his removed.
Giving her a CBE for ‘services to the post office’ is like giving Tony Blair a knighthood for ‘services to the people of Iraq’
He was made the UN's 'Middle East Peace Envoy'. lol.
Kudos 👏 to Private Eye, who exposed this years ago. Vennell should be stripped off her CBE, prosecuted and doing prison time.
And pay back her bonuses !
She does but don’t let the rest of senior management at the PO and Fujitsu get away with it, she’s one of many corrupt individuals who covered this up.
computor weekly was the 1 st .
CBEs for someone just doing their job. This scandal has been known about for OVER TEN YEARS !
Disgusting
And let's be honest, They weren't doing their job even
It's been know about for longer than that, it was just not mainstream.
The most insulting thing was they offered Mr Bates a CBE.
@@lonyo5377 that's how an incompetent mercenary bunch of crooks think I'm afraid
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 When someone says something is 'known about', that's exactly what they mean. It's more widely known to the public.
It's nearly 25 years since some were accused . They all need there convictions quashed immediately .
It’s crazy to think this has been going on for that long. 1999 does not feel like that long ago!
true, nothing will even repair the damage done, some even committed
:( , RIP to the fallen ones
Oh wow, so this thing is a lot older than the first journalism piece in 2009 then. !
So the first person accused was in 1988 and it took 11 years until ComputerWeekly wrote something about it in 2009. Have I got this right ?
@@Rasscasse The Horizon system started its pilot phase in 1995, so the 1988 comment is indeed wrong. Internal management concerns about the system's efficacy arose later on in the decade.
This is a perfect example of a 2 tier justice system.
It's way beyond time there was parity in the justice system, two examples that show the stark contrast between injustice and privilege....
An autistic woman who doesn't control her own finances, was just found guilty of not paying her tv license and sentenced even though it wasnt her fault or within her capabilities to understand.
Compared with these people who got / get honours and paid very well to implement, run and oversee this debacle that has ruined so many peoples lives for the best part of 25 years. They have lived high on the hog whilst it all fell apart on their watch, securing pensions and investment portfolios along the way. They are unlikely, once the old school tie network sets to work, to ever see a days hardship for the literal destruction of lives homes and reputations
Im not sure how much longer the general public will put up with this before they snap, i guess thats why the Tories ushered in anti protest laws and Labour have said they won't change them. They are circling the wagons in preemptive defense for the injustices they know they are going to throw our way. For all the benefits of modern life, in their eyes we are and will remain serfs.
This entire country is a 3 tier system. Blacks and asians at the bottom still. We are held to a different level regardless of allegations. This goes from Academia, Medicine through to local government
my comment has been censored ... F youtube
This govt is hurting ALL of its people of all races and backgrounds. It’s not about race like the other commenter. It’s class, rich vs. poor. And the people I. Their bubbles don’t have the law applied to them. Shows these titles don’t mean anything anymore
@@lordvadertheleftie9703depends where you are. In my city the police will quite literally refuse to respond to calls if the suspect isn’t white.
The honours system is so corrupted - what an insult. Blair should be stripped of his knighthood as well.
Crusaders were knighted for wrecking the middle east. He's in keeping with tradition
Fantastic journalism by Ian hislop
Yep, as always .
Hislop is the editor, not a journalist.
@@EmptyGlass99
🧐 Aren’t editors journalists anymore?
That’s a shame.
🧐 What if they happen to edit a journal?
Strange.
From Wikipedia:
‘Ian David Hislop (born 13 July 1960) is a British journalist, satirist, and television personality. ... Hislop has remained a key figure in British satire and journalism. ... In April 2017, Hislop won the London Press Club's print journalist of the year award; ...’
I could go on, but you probably get the drift - he’s a journalist who is the editor of Private Eye.
LOL - He's controlled opposition.
He doesn't mention the Plannedemic, the Poison Juice, the Net Zero Carbon SCAM etc etc etc
To knowingly and persistently lie in court in order to send innocent people to prison demands so much more than the 'return' of some meaningless letters.
Not to mention those who committed suicide.
I don't think sorry is going to cut it !
I say we should bring back the birch and subject the Post Office villains to its taste
She must not be allowed to hand the CBE back, she MUST BE stripped of it in public and made an example of. She also needs to have her Post Office pension taken away - we paid for that in our taxes. She must also hand back her severance package. She deserves NO benefits, just a prison cell
No her pension
Repossess her assets. It will help pay the compensation.
And many more people so many more involved
Actually that is the only way she can have it removed, she isn't really able to "hand it back". Unfortunately it's a performative gesture. Only the King can take it away.
No problem mate, she can't "hand it back", that's an empty gesture and she knows it because it's not up to her. She is a CBE until the King says she's not, and I have no doubt the PM on behalf of Parliament will be suitably advising HM.
Just to think she was also an Anglican priest. Almost all the worst people in history all have honours and titles.
It always seems to be worse somehow when a person of the cloth is at fault.
Wait for it, she was at one time on a shortlist for consideration as a bishop. Someone in the Church of England just dodged a bullet on that one. Imagine if she'd been appointed to high office just before this came out, she'd have been castigated even worse than now, also there'd be a new interpretation of the well-worn phrase 'bashing the bishop' to consider.
Many wrong doings happen within churches and they try and hide behind it
Got to be expected from a person of the cloth .Perfectly normal.
Vennells’ CBE is now utterly worthless, everyone now knows the story behind it, she should just hand it back.
Not just hers. It brings down the value of the whole system.
She could hand it back in along with her watch & jewellery when she's sent down.
The honours system is a disgrace. Some of the most disgusting people in history have been awarded honours, Jimmy Saville being just an example.
@@frederickwelham3829 spot on
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
CBE and a job with the NHS and other directorships was payback for covering up for politicians.
Abolish the Honours' system...and the Monarchy while you're at it.
The NHS is run by 🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
She was given the award for outstanding services to perjury
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
She was paid very big money for being responsible so she should be held responsible. Loss of CBE, loss of pension and loss of freedom should all be an option. As it should be for any public figure as we the public will have to pick up the bill for their failings with no recourse on them.
And loss of her dog collar. She is despicable.
Exactly
Never happen
She can keep the CBE but should lose her freedom and pension money. I think that's equitable retribution.
just like they got Fred Goodwin ?
Thank you Private Eye and Ian Hislop for continuing to expose this cesspit of corruption .......and all the others!
I have subscribed for over 50 years and never was my money better spent........
LOL - He's controlled opposition.
He doesn't mention the Plannedemic, the Poison Juice, the Net Zero Carbon SCAM etc etc etc
@@mrmensa1096The moment someone says plannedemic you can automatically disregard everything they say. Take off your tinfoil hat and try living in reality.
@alexkaye108 Could not agree more.
@@dominicharris5851 Yes. And as for ‘Poison Juice’ (whatever that is) one is reminded irresistibly of General Jack D Ripper in Dr Strangelove. Sigh, there are some odd-bods out there. All adds to the gaiety of nations I suppose.
@@mrmensa1096Russian troll farm bot
The C.B.E. was ridiculous but given her performance before the select committee, whilst in charge of the post office, she was later given a quango role with the NHS
And a non exec position within the Cabinet Office! I wonder what pearls of wisdom were given?
@@sueburgess847 that didnt work on mine
@@realcapitalist1462 she showed them how to tell lies
@@steveturner6770 Ha yes, new strings to an already well strung bow!!
@@sueburgess847that’s rishi Sunak father in laws company...infosys, running the U.K. warning system...and more importantly, why do we need it?
Thanks private eye for staying with this scandal
It says much about our society that asking Vennells to return the CBE seems to be the summit of this government's ambitions. Meanwhile, a public boiling with incandescent rage demands senior Post Office and Fujitsu managers' to be stripped of dignity, freedom and any monetary value. Whose vision will prevail I wonder?
Very well stated.
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
Well done Ian!👏👏👏👏👏
What gets me angry, is not the fact that Paula was given an CBE, but the fact that she's not given it back yet. If she had a shred of decency, I would hand it back ASAP. But alas, she does not.
The difference is that she has no shred of common decency
She Also received a million Pound Bonus, for profits made from stealing cash from these poor sub postmasters
@@stevenclarke5606, so she got these poor people’s life savings and they were destroyed ! 😡🤬
She knows to do that is an admission of guilt
@@msimms-ft9yvBut then, if she's done nothing wrong, she should come out and say, her silence in of itself is an admission of guilt.
The peer system is what really needs to be changing full stop. There is so much corruption in politics and we deserve better.
Far too many of us haven't bothered to have any oversight role because a dumbed- down population can easily be persuaded that 'politics is just too boring.'
So true... without accountability this could go on forever.
Seriously? At least four people have died and hundreds had their lives ruined and your takeaway is there's a problem with the honours system. Those people weren't destroyed because Vennels is a CBE, they were destroyed because she is evil. Get some perspective!
The Post Office has been a nightmare for _decades._ My brother worked there for many years and managers were getting mega bonuses for _reducing_ services whilst at the same time expecting posties literally to have to run round their rounds.. And has anyone tried a post office counter at lunchtime? Just a ridiculous outfit.
Exactly. Posties carried heavier bags and given longer rounds. Job cuts to the trustworthy genuine staff.
This wretched institution also enjoys far too much power over the lives of ordinary citizens. Just consider the historical hounding of those reluctant to cough up the BBC TV tax.
Postmen work for Royal Mail, not for the Post Office.
If you are going to comment at least make sure that you understand the difference between the Post Office and Royal Mail
Quite right Moth.That is a common mistake, as an ex-postie I know that myself.@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree
The Honours list is mostly (I am not saying all) ridiculous, but so many wealthy celebrities and CEO's receiving honours yet so many unsung heroes who deserve to be recognised.
The more you watch the Horizon Enquiry, the more you hear "i cant recall", and some giving Evidence are clearly holding back the Truth!
Im ashamed of my country.
Remember this when comes to next general election
A bit extreme, don't you think ?
No. 'Not-so-happyapple' is far from alone in UK society these days. @@JD-eq4dp
@@JD-eq4dp A few months ago I might have thought it so, but the social contract has been completely broken from the top for me now too.
@@JD-eq4dpAre you serious.
Travesty beyond the cretinous usuals. Prison for the psychopaths who tried to bury the truth.
So Labour then, seeing as they were in charge when this happened.
@Dynasty1818 If any knew the truth and colluded in burying the truth, then yes.
Hislop is a hero, who fights for the
truth and justice in all its forms.
Love Ian Hislop, he's a national treasure. Oops someone already said that but, he and private eye are an institution ❤
Failure of IT is always surrounded by failure of people.
Failure of IT often seems to be surrounded by corruption too. I repeatedly see contractors paid vast sums for developing substandard software. When more could be achieved through an collaborative open-source approach. The Government Digital Service is about the only department which usually seems to get it right.
'GIGO'...
Ian Hislop is spot on with that ‘Play for Today’ reference. I’d forgotten about that.
Cathy Come Home. Carol White was my mates aunt. She was his female double facially. Lovely bloke he was.
I remember reading Private Eye’s fortnightly round up of RM/Fujitsu victims, edition after edition, victim after victim, and feeling as powerless as they must have done that they weren’t being heard, weren’t being believed. Ian is being his usual wonderfully humble self about his part in what it has taken to get this fiasco into to public eye
That's the only problem I have with Private Eye: it's so depressing to read about all the injustice,.corruption and hypocrisy that goes on.
Absolutely. Had it not been for the relentless coverage by Private Eye and Computer Weekly the drama might never have been made.
So sad - Play for Today - brilliant!
Exactly Dennis. Public eye needs Private eye 👀 👀 👀
The government couldn’t be bothered to look into this travesty at all. They too should be brought to account.
Which one(s) ?
When you have a prime minister who held the job for 49 days.... And she gets to nominate cronies for honours.....??
Ian Hislop is a national treasure, we’re so lucky to have him batting for us. 👍
Take that cbe away and make Ian a sir .
There’s no chance he’d accept one. No chance.
@@robertcottam8824 true
That only helps to support the whole bent honours system
As one of the million, thank you both for giving more air time to this pernicious miscarriage of justice. Everyone representing the institution at the time, not forgetting Fujitsu too, demonstrated an appalling , if not terrifying, lack of ethics and humanity. Every single sub-postmaster needs their debt repaying, criminal records cleared and substantial compensation NOW. Not at the taxpayers expense though, instead from commercial and personal profits of the perpetrators.
I can’t argue with your suggestion. Seems fair to me.
Fujitsu supply pretty much all the systems for the pretty much the ENTIRE civil service.
In that case how many other systems are faulty like Horizon system and how many people are in trouble as a result?
If I were PM I would tell end Fujitsu their contracts are ended and that we will be seeking compensation for shoddy systems delivered!@@HaggisOfDeath
Given that the Post Office is state owned, where else is the money going to come from other than taxpayers?
@@theredravenFujitsu.
As an Australian with an interest in UK politics, this is sadly reminiscent of our 'Robodebt' scandal, with tens of thousands of notices for non-existent debts for welfare overpayments, leading to suicides.
Pretty much the same thing happened here in The Netherlands with child benefits payments. Compensation still hasn’t been fully paid out to the victims despite the fund for doing that having existed for several years already.
Robodebt was worse. Way, way worse. Robodebt was essentially the federal government knowingly extorting money out of the citizenry on a mass scale. No right to the presumption of innocence, no right to face your accuser - the accuser was basically an algorithm, no meaningful right to appeal, and ultimately, no one was hold criminally liable.
Robodebt was the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a totalitarian state ran by a bunch of kleptocrats. So, basically the Liberal Party.
@@GorgeDawes Several years? That's rookie numbers!
We had problems with the child support payments in the eighties, we were ordered to repay $4800 within fourteen days. We challenged this and won, back payments were made and the allowance increased. Government departments don't understand farmers or how agricultural industry's work. Ian Hislop is right, she should be sacked with no entitlements.
Ah yes! Robodebt - I was thinking the same
Vennells is a vampire.
She should surrender that accolade voluntarily if she had an ounce of decency.
She already proved she hasn’t though.
Real Journalism of the Highest Order .
The voices were heard but ignored.
Why has Adam Crozier not been held to account? Or the Post Office Chairman? Or the CFO? Or anyone from Fujitsu?
Because the public inquiry needs to be completed first.
But calls for Vennells to be stripped of honor prior to public enquiry?
Doesn’t he run ITV? That night explain why he doesn’t feature in the ITV drama about the scandal!
@@GorgeDawes Crozier left ITV in 2017. He's chairman of BT now.
To receive an award in the first place someone has to recommend it and what level of an award is offered, we know who received the C.B.E. but who put Paula Vennels up for it?
Just the same as that Mahone and the Johnsons mate a KGB agent who put him in the House of Lords.
Why does it have to take a TV docudrama for there to be a public outcry and for politicians to speak out?
And for the Met to investigate.
like they said, CBE's have been a huge joke for a while now
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
The whole honours system needs to be scrapped and something new put in its place. Same with the house of Lords. It's all corruption at its finest.
Love it or hate it, the House of Lords is the only protection we have against a rogue government. If it wasn't for the HoL, the Rwanda bill would become law, and this horrible government would be a step closer to authoritarianism. I'm not sure about you, but I don't want to live in a rogue nation that operates like Russia, North Korea, and the like.
And Royalty.
@@andrewoliver8930 I'd love them to go too but I understand a lot of UK people like to keep them. I did see a recent survey though which pointed to less and less of us caring for them.
Just to confirm it they now have Dodgy Dave
Honestly; as a former IT professional, the idea that that the first response by the post office to these discrepancies was anything other than "We'll assume this is a bug in the system until we have properly analysed the code" is horrifying.
Given that Modern IT systems involve huge numbers of possible combinations of actions, there will always be the possibility of bugs getting through the testing process, which is why you CAN NEVER operate on the basis that it is impossible for things to go wrong.
With an issue that is affecting large numbers of system users, your first assumption is system issues. You absolutely do the personnel investigations at the same time, but if those investigations show a wide geographical spread with no links between individuals then that's evidence FOR it being a system issue.
The means by which expert evidence for IT issues in court cases is sourced and evaluated needs to be overhauled.
Basic logic and professionalism would have led to this approach
The actual investigations showed that there was no evidence that these people had stolen the money. Yet they still pursued them.
It is also why they bullied them into pleading guilty to a lesser charge false accounting because there was no evidence of theft.
I've been using the post office as an example of what poor testing looks like for over a decade
Is this not a sign of the dearth of technical and IT awareness in the realms of power in this country? Even given that, it seems to me that there was no attempt to examine any audit trails, quality checks, transaction logs which could have thrown light on the problems. Of course that looks as if Fujitsu were aware of problems and carried on with a completely insane policy of firefighting "on the hoof" which caused more problems. And even more worrying, this company have been handed vast sums for other UK security-critical systems - (I have run out of words to express my rage here)
Acquaintances that write code and programs would be aghast at the blind faith shown here. Or the appearance of faith anyway, possibly just a smokescreen and pantomime.
We need more people like Ian Hislop to telling the truth.
WWe should give private eye the power to direct government on one issue every week. The UK would be a far better place.
CBE should be stripped of her and she should be jailed, hopefully the petition has more success than a very well supported petition against the Knighthood of a proven war criminal!
Too many people are given high honors just for doing their job nowadays, or being a football star.
Too many people being called a "Hero" for winning a sport somewhere.
The whole honours system needs a massive overhaul over who, and for what, they accept nominations for.
I guarantee those pathetic bootlickers in parliament wouldn't consider an award for people like Alan Bates for sticking up for the downtrodden and wrongly accused for 20 years.
He did this outside of his job and in his own time. That's the sort of person the British Government should be proud of. Not someone who sat in the top chair.
Exactly 2019. Imagine having to live through this utter vile experience only to wake up one morning to find the very person at the heart of it gets honoured 🎖
It's a national disgrace, the whole fiasco. The hierarchy at the post office, government ministers, and Fijusti all need to be accountable and, if possible, criminal proceedings, questioned, stripped and prosecuted. Also, the speed of compensation needs to be much more efficient and paid ASAP.
This person was awarded honours and presided over the biggest mass injustice in recent times. The money is still in their system unless the software diverted it to someone who benefited . WHERE DID THE MONEY GO?
The money is fictitious, it never existed. It should be obvious that in many cases it was more than the normal turnover.
The money didn't exist, it was accounting errors ... but the Sub-Postmasters paid it 'back' and that money went to the post office, at the time an arm of govenement, now a private company
Ian makes a valid point also when he says the CBE was awarded in 2019 - 8 years after his magazine raised awareness of this for the first time. Ian and his journalists have long been hated and ridiculed by MPs in Westminister - that’s why they ignored him. Now the mainstream media are knowing he was right all along, shame on MPs, none of them deserve any sympathy here. The honourable thing is that those MPs who know but ignored the issue or tried to bury this should go - not just Sir Ed Davey. Name and shame, and justice for the postmasters I say to begin with, plus reform the whole honours system or scrap it altogether!
The Hillsborough Injustice was a great prior example of a dramatisation binging an issue into other people's homes.
As part of the “composition” the post office should be made put up public notice in every post office apologising to all the postmasters and the staff who were wrongly accused of “all criminality” associated with the Horizon software. And include names where agreed with the victims.
RM knew horizon was faulty yet they were allowed to prosecute the post masters and mistresses. Knowing, knowing Horizon was at fault. Its the same old, every time something like this happens. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I think it also shows just what kind of a person Paula is when she has failed to return her gong. No honour, no sense of decency feom her. Utterly disgraceful unworthy individual. She should herself be prosecuted for her part in this.
All those people who were blamed for nothing
She should go to jail for the cumulative sentences handed down to all those wrongly jailed, plus her own sentence for her wrong doing.
Next up: how DVLA operate without external oversight and wrongly fine many thousands of vehicle owners while NEVER admitting "they have made an error"
Not to mention taking away people's licences without properly checking how healthy they really are. I know of someone who lost his Class one licence 8 months after a Stent OP. He was working the whole time. They cut him off and now he will give up his home and will have no address.
I know someone who had a full car and bike licence for over 30 years , he had to renew his card licence a few years back and sent it off , it came back without the bike license part on it, he complained and they said the computer says no. He couldn't find the old paper part from when he initially passed so had to do the whole test yet again 30 years later at great expense.
So if you are sending anything to them take photos first is my advice.
While we’re on about removing honours, how about Tony Blair’s knighthood.
And his head
How about the most hated pm ever thatcher
Horizon was one of the first contracts the UK bought from Fujitsu.... following on were Fujitsu contracts worth billions. That's why I think the bigwigs at the PO and certain MPs tried to cover this up - because if Horizon was initially exposed then doing further business with Fujitsu may not have happened which was not an option. Always thinking of money first, disbelieving 100s of honest workers over a quick buck. Disgraceful.
The contract was orignally with ICL who had a long history of government work, it was bought by Fujitsu before implmentation
Thanks for your info, which is very interesting, but I still stand by my opinion. The tories have shown time and time again that they think of money before lives. @@davidioanhedges
Fujitsu has just been given a billion pound government contract to set up a flood warning IT system.
Interesting. It makes me think, who will benefit from this contract? @@Woodman-Spare-that-tree
@@22Phantasm The original contract and specification was badly written, so it was difficult to back out of, and the Labour giovernment it was implmented under largely had to rely on Fujitsu to confirm it was reliable, they brought in experts at the time, who said it was ...
The first hints there were still problems that the Post Office had not mananged to cover up were at the tail end of the Brown government, and were still being investigated
The Conservatives in 2010 already knew about the issues... that was 14 years ago ...
As in all the privatised industries, the CEO is not in place to look after the interests of the customers or employees, they are there, as exemplified by the Royal Mail CEO Thompson, they are in place to deliver ‘shareholder value’…. Ie profits at any cost….
Royal Mail? What's any of this got to do with them?
Its not just the CBE, Its the jobs she's been given by the government since. She should be dismissed, As a subscriber of Private Eye ive followed this for years.
Fujitsu knew about this from its implementation and all governments from Bliar are responsible!
Gaol the real criminals , pay real compensation now
Yes I can remember and was horrified that people have been treated so appallingly. That it has been going on so long is beyond shameful.
isn't conspiracy to pervert the course of justice still a crime in this country?
It's time to bin the Royal Mail. In the same way it's past time to bin the BBC. Both institutions' business models are no longer fit for purpose, i.e. no need to send written letters anymore and the license fee is nothing more than compulsory subscription. RIP Royal Mail and RIP the BBC. And while we're at it, RIP the monarchy as head of state.
You are confusing Royal Mail and the Post Office. Royal Mail delivers eBay purchases, the Post Office prosecutes its staff.
It's nothing to do with Royal Mail.
Royal Mail also has problems with a ex CEO Simon Thompson lying on oath to Parliament 😢
@@silondon9010 Royal Mail is a totally separate company with a different board.
Does Britain actually work anymore? I’m not so sure.
Maybe they thought "services" meant church services, instead of doing something useful?
Without the "contributions" taken from the sub-postmasters the Post Office would have made a loss so all executive bonuses are invalid and should be involuntarily taken back.
She should have her award taken away for misconduct.
While we are at it Tony Blair should have his Award taken away & lock him up.
I knew about this in 2009 as we had computer weekly at work. I couldnt work out why anyone ever thought horizon evidence was robust
I agree Paula Vennells should be stripped of her CBE and also she has been ordained into the priesthood the church should be looking into that as well, it does not bode well for the church on what they stand for.
She knowingly & deliberately broke the 9th Commandment under oath, that should be grounds for defrocking.
Hiding behind gods words. Many of em do.
@@zetectic7968Ms.Vennells with no frock on.That's an image that will give me nightmares.
I wonder if some Honours recipients may be looking at their 'gong' and debating handing it back, publicly, in disgust...
She knew what was happening and allowed it to happen again and again because she didn't want bad press for the post office. She should not only never have been honoured she should be in court on serious charges.
Says everything about the justice system, government and the level of news journalism in this country that it takes a tv drama to get results. Disgusting situation. Arrests need to be made and fujitsu needs to be banned from the uk. Not just govt contracts
Rock on Ian. 🏴⚖️🏴
The CBE must only be the start of the process of holding the senior PO management and their legal team accountable.
One of the many notable aspects of this case was that nobody was locating the missing money. The PO was saying “you’ve stolen from us, but we aren’t proving that by showing that you actually took our money but instead by asking a computer”. Insanity. And all the more insane that this got by the British legal system. Further more insanity that as Hislop points out, it took a TV program to finally address this. Sad times.
Where did all the missing money end up??
Another awful aspect is that post office executives were given bonuses for each conviction. Shameful.
@@mikewood5679There wasn't any missing money.
This IT scandal could be an example of where AI will go if no controls are put in place.
10 years would've been more appropriate.
Not only should Paula Vennells lose her CBE, along with Sir Ed Davey and Vince Cable face prosecution. And well done Ian.
Due to everything that's happened and everyone who's participated, Ian Hislop is now the leader of the free world.
Disgusting for it to take the drama on tv about the Post Office to now bringing it all out into the open, and fingers crossed, getting it sorted and these poor postmasters/mistresses being cleared. They need their money back that they paid to the PO and then given compensation. Totally disgusting.
I remember this from 2008. However, what no one seems to ask is; how come the trials found against these people? The defence lawyers, judge, juries; what went wrong?
And I've seen no analysis of how the cash and banks were reconciled. And do the PO not have internal auditors, to test procedures, and do 'mystery shops'?
Vennels ....how she would be able to go to church and forgive people for their sins and yet lie and ignore the pleas of the innocent postmasters is unbelievable! The church should make a statement on this individual who they accepted in their minidtry at the time.
The church is making her a Bishop.
I find this far more unacceptable than the cbe fiasco- how can she think that she is in any way a Christian person? She tortured people!
Well said Ian Hislop. As someone commented, either suddenly the Post Office started to employ hundreds of crooked sub postmasters or the Horizon system was dodgy. We now know the answer to which one it was. Vennells has handed back her CBE, but that should not be the end of the matter, prosecutions should follow for her actions, along with seniors at the Post Office and Fujitsu.
The default position of the Post Office was that a lot of their postmasters were probably doing some low-level fiddling, but they couldn't catch them. When Horizon started identifying thousands of accounting errors, their reaction was, "See, we were right," and that mindset was what led to the initial wave of prosecutions. After doubts about the system's accuracy started to mount up, however, the strategy changed to one of protecting against reputational damage; publicly denying there was a problem, to protect the previous prosecutions and the Post Office brand.
It's appalling that so many innocent people have had their reputations and livelihoods taken from them unjustly, and now it's most likely that the taxpayer will stump up compensation, rather than Fujitsu, or the Post Office senior managers who were complicit.
It does seem rather insensitive and foolish to reward a former post office boss with a CBE considering she presided over what appears to be their most disgraceful period considering what they did to some of their sub postmasters. The police are now investigating and it seems highly likely they will find wrong doing based on what happened. Considering the illegitimate prosecutions and the fact that innocent folks went to jail, it would now seem that the leaders of the post office were either complicit in wrongdoing or else completely incompetent. In either case should that be rewarded?
Could be worse, didn't someone get knighted for starting a phoney war ? .
Turns out there were discrepancies when they ran a pilot in 1996. Still the pushed ahead and rolled the system out. I used to work on SW trials/pilots in a totally unrelated field but we did not proceed to rollout if there were issue in the trial.
Ian Hislop should be a valued commentator on our political scene - what a treasure. He should be celebrated as a voice in the wilderness who can always cut through the hypocrisy and double dealing of the government and big business.
Love Hislop when he appears at select committees, you can see the politicians trembling when he takes them to task! Fantastic!