Mixed bag at best. More or less advocates for conservatism and traditionalism in the cultural and religious sense. Also, they're advocates for neo-conservatism, corporatism, and statism in politics. The company has deep pockets from 2 brothers who initially funded it from their natural gas wealth. As an aside, the brothers belong to an unusual slice of Christianity. For anyone who doesn't know what I mean by "mixed bag", look at Jordan Peterson. Under the Daily Wire, he gets to make content with higher production value on topics he's stronger in (psychology, culture, religion). Look at his content with both Pageau brothers, for example. But he also does more promotion of people and ideas that are pro-war (Kagan), pro foreign intervention, and pro regime change.
Great to see how Jonathan is drawing deep wisdom from Dante, as an Orthodox. Many of the themes in the Comedy are drawing from the Eastern Tradition, especially participation, transformation and the final Theosis (the overall movement of the whole work). Dante has not been taken seriously as a theologian for centuries, but luckily it's starting to change!
I wouldn't say Eastern orthodoxy had much influence on Dante. The Comedia is often called "The Summa in Verse". It is very much in line with Catholic theology.
@@superroydude Catholic Theology has it's basis in Eastern Theology. St. Thomas is the universal Doctor because he used both Eastern and Western theologians.
@@superroydude I agree. But St. Thomas did use Eastern Theologians such as St. John Chyrsystom and Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite. Dante was heavily influenced by St. Thomas. Therefore, it's not strange to see EO sympathizing with Dante.
@@h.p6016 Certainly he was but my point is Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox in this case is a false dichotomy. St John Chrysostom and St Dionysius the Areopogite, while from the East, are very much Catholic saints and were when St Thomas was writing.
@@sooperd00p there are a lot of bad parents in the bible and a couple of trust bad Kings/Emperors. The ultimate Bad Boy King is Saul. At least on the Jewish side. The other empires have their bad boys to. The badest girl/mother has to be Jezebel, although the Demon Lilith is a mean bitch too.
Truth saves. Here is something most dont know. Clement of Alexandria in Stromata book 6:5= "Apostle Paul will show, saying: "Take also the Hellenic books, read the Sibyl (prophecy over 13,000 years ago), how it is shown that God is one (they believed in 1 God), and how the future is indicated (they prophesied 1st and others changed it). Or as other translate to sum it up as "you will find our Lord Jesus Christ written more clearly by the Greeks" Historian Church father Bishop "Eusebius of Caesarea says that the first years after the passing of Jesus Christians were considered the Hellenized people who opposed circumcision and followed Greek customs." & on omitted bible text which stopped short with continues "The hour is fulfilled that the Son of Man should be glorified. For Greece alone begets man, a heavenly plant, and a divine plant, a divine system, a science that is aptly understood."
@@bryanutility9609 But that may be the thing. Its all Greek. For example the name Mary is Greek Maria is the daughter of Proetus king of Argos And Tiryns. the heroin of Heroine of Arcadia daughter of Atlas one of the 12 kings of Atlantis. one of the Nereids, daughters of Nereus and Doris. one of the four daughters of the river god Erasinus. Icarius of Athens pet dog. a town of ancient Arcadia, Greece. Church father Bishop Dorotheos of 3rd century AD said all the majority of mothers that are known of Christ's disciples (no record of Simon & Judas) had Ancient Greek names. fathers of Christ's disciples as well with Ancient Greek names which St. John & St. James the Apostles father name was Zebedeos (Ζεβ+εδαίος from Zeus+Ideal). or Zeus is perfect. Christ top commandment was not new to the Greeks which Greek Sage Thales 600bc "Love your fellow human even if this means hurting yourself", "To love your neighbor." You have read Sibyl? "prophecy of Sibylla Tiburtina confirms...a Greek is raised...name Jesus" Stromata 6:5= "Apostle Paul will show, saying: "Take also the Hellenic books, read the Sibyl, how it is shown that God is one..." "Pauline Christianity" was rejected since it was too Hellenic and not OT enough. Serbian Theology school "The Christian “reception” of Hellenism is the reason, important at least as much as it is neglected, of our essential interest for Hellenic culture, which (in distinction to other cultures" Church father Eusebius bishop of Caesarea on omitted bible text which stopped short with continues, when the Greeks went to see Christ "The hour is fulfilled that the Son of Man should be glorified. For Hellas alone begets man, a heavenly plant, and a divine plant, a divine system, a science that is aptly understood." Russian Orthodox Theologian Fr. Florovsky "Everything in early Christianity is Greek. We are all Greeks in our thinking as Christians." & "Hellenism has placed its eternal character upon the Church. It has become an inseparable part of her very being and as such every Christian is, to some extent, a Hellene. Hellenism is not simply a phase in the history of Christianity but a cornerstone in its life"
@@bryanutility9609 what exacly? Do u also find what ancient greeks philosophers said absurd? Everythinh everyone has is due to them and the world was as a stand still for thousands of years
@@trench01 no I don’t find myself “believing” a Jew died for my sins on the cross is anything like the story of Troy. Also the Greeks & Romans as culture left a legacy. I don’t see anything inspiring in the Bible, sorry. Also nobody worships Homer they just enjoy the stories. It’s a totally different and unrelated frame.
I love the part about evolution and how from that emerges the notion that value-based selection is weaven into the very fabricate of reality itself. That makes so much sense to me, and it's also the part of Jordan Petersons work I'm most fascinated by.
As long as you don’t start from the assumption that “the most good for the most people” is the highest good. None of these people have an argument against “might makes right”.
This was such an amazing conversation. I have long wished Jonathan would sit down with Andrew Klavan. I still hope it happens, but this was also amazing.
Andrew is a subversive Jew who loves diversity and loves seeing white people become a minority. Why doesn’t he want Jews to become a minority in Israel?
c. 24 mins: Is the Trinity an aporia, an irresolvable contradiction? Isn't it more correctly understood as a paradox, a preterrational reality that can still be approached with grace by reason?
Christ is at the heart of human relevance. Whereas, nihilism wrongfully decontextualizes the world for human action, and thus makes us feel lost in an ocean of meaninglessness.
Being quite new to these guys' work, I have a little reservation on the argument about evolution, and I'd be happy to get some responses. The argument that "all selection implies a good" is sound, but it seems to rest on what I've always thought was a pop-cultural distortion of what natural selection means, albeit a distortion rendered very tempting by the use of the word "selection". What actually happens, as I've always understood it, is that when a certain pressure exerts itself on a certain population (e.g. rats getting eaten by eagles), the members of the species most likely to survive are those with traits that happen to help them respond to that particular pressure (e.g. rats whose fur colour makes it harder for eagles to spot them). There are a multitude of pressures exerting themselves on a population of organisms at any given time, and so in practice those most likely to survive are those who have a whole balance of factors which makes them more able to shrug off those pressures (and produce healthy offspring). We call this process "selection" because it's an intuitively appealing way to think about this whole web of pressures and likelihoods, but it can nonetheless be explained without presupposing that nature is selecting organisms wilfully. And as in the example with the rats, the trait that's likely to be passed down isn't always dominance or aggression - it could just as well be the ability to scurry into a hole quickly and lay low when needed. The logic behind this is not one of virtue, but neither is it one of power and dominance. (By the way, if anyone with a deeper knowledge of evolutionary biology than myself would like to correct this account, please do - there's always a chance that I'm talking with unwarranted confidence about something I don't really understand.) We can still speak of a "good" in natural selection, but of the limited, relative, practical kind. Nietzsche would identify this as the older, pre-metaphysical kind of good, the useful, the serviceable - something he sees as distinct from moral/metaphysical good in the Judeo-Christian sense. If we then "jump to Dante," I can only imagine that means seeing the hierarchy of virtues as a laying out of the traits most conducive to survival across all the sets of circumstance humans are likely to encounter. (If I'm not mistaken, Jordan Peterson makes an argument very similar to this in some of his lectures.) But this jump collapses the distinction between metaphysical and pre-metaphysical good in favour of the latter: that is, it collapses "what's right" into "what's useful/serviceable/conducive to survival", with the Good standing at most as a kind of meta-serviceability. Jonathan seems aware of this difference insofar as he refers to evolution as building metaphysics "from the bottom up", but I don't think the consequences of this bottom-upping were fully explored in this discussion. I imagine that most of us, at a certain level, wouldn't be content with the view of Good that I've just suggested evolution leads us to; I suspect we'd feel there's something missing from it. My own hunch is that, for a bottom-up metaphysics, beauty is a better starting point, and one which evolution largely bypasses. (Plato's Symposium is a fractal text that we could all spend a long time discussing.) I'd love to hear what others think.
I wish we had got more into this in the discussion. I have some concerns with the bottom-up approach as well. If it's not balanced out. Alongside what you said, there is no binding agent that we should all ascend to. I hope to explore this in further conversations with Jonathan (and elsewhere).
Mr Pageau is Orthodox through the grace of God ... the question is, unfortunately, does he follow the old julian calendar Orthodox Church or the New ecumenical Orthodox Church? The new calendar Orthodox Church broke off in 1924and has clearly united with Catholicism and other world religions in the world council of churches. There is a remnant of old calendar Orthodox Churches in existence today...seek and ye shall find. These Churches have been persecuted over the years but have kept the Faith.
This is very calming and therapeutic, it seems with the dominance of the scientific world view, it is causing great anxiety and stress. Unless it is properly framed.
YOOOOOOO I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS DUO FOR YEARS! I'll take complete credit for this since I commented on both Young Heretics and Jonathan Pageau videos that they should have a conversation. Next step is for Jonathan to talk with the unrelated Andrew Klavan.
When the Master governs, the people are hardly aware that he exists. Next best is a leader who is loved. next, one who is feared. The worst is one who is despised. If you don't trust the people, you make them untrustworthy. The Master doesn't talk, he acts. When his work is done, the people say, "Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!" -lao tzu
I hope we can and God graces us, but believe we are likely in the escalating patterns of AntiChrist. Either way the pre-political religious salvation of souls is the answer.
This part was great: Spencer Klavan: It seems to me that...this kind of nested structure, this representative symbolic structure is inherent in the Trinity itself. In other words, it's not simply something that has to do with the way that God must express himself to man and among humanity because of our distance from him or because of our embodiment in matter, but that actually, it comes along even in a pre-lapsarian way, bound up with our nature as images of God. That we are three in one already, kind of within an individual, there's symbolic language going on, even in our thought, private thoughts to ourselves. Aristotle says, you know, no thought is an image, but no thought takes place without images, without pictures, fantasia either. And I wonder whether trinitarian theology...you would know a lot more about the patristic literature on this than I...it's a kind of an article of trinitarian faith that something about this symbolic gesture is inherent in God's nature of itself. Jonathan Pageau: I mean, obviously, I don't want to misstep. I always hate talk about trinitarian theology lest someone calls me a heretic, you know, and I don't even know why, but I think that definitely the one...I think the moon of the mysteries of the revelation of the Trinity is the notion that multiplicity is in the godhead, right? That in God is both perfect unity and perfect multiplicity, and in some ways, it's an aporia because obviously we can't make sense of it, but it's not an aporia that is just arbitrary or illogical because we can see in that aporia of proposing perfect unity and perfect multiplicity that we see that happen at lower and more imperfect levels in the world. So in the world, we notice the coexistence of unity and multiplicity, and we can see when that is balanced, like when there's love, and love is holding multiplicity in unity, and we can see that. I think that we are meant to live as an image of the Trinity, for sure, and I think that's why I really do believe that the Trinity...I mean, I'm preaching for my own Parish or whatever, but I do believe that the trinitarian revelation in some ways is met, even metaphysically, it's like the deepest way to talk about the infinite that I can think of. Because the problem with the kind of monadic vision, right of the one, and that type of language...I mean, I don't want to reduce the neo-Platonists, but it can be dangerous because it tends to diminish multiplicity as being derivative and as being almost fallen in itself, at a kind of Gnostic move that we saw at the beginning of Christianity. But trinitarianism really puts multiplicity as being in the very infinite itself. That's... it's astounding to me, like... it's a beautiful image.
That is fair but it is also important to understand that Unity is primary to multiplicity in the sense that Unity and multiplicity are united in One. That does not degrade multiplicity in the least but it is the reason that other traditions emphasise the importance of asserting the primacy of the One. So, as it would be a caricature to say that Christianity, in all its forms, denies the One it is also a caricature to say that the traditions that emphasise the One deny the many.
He has videos explaining his background. He literally wouldn't have the ability or knowledge to do this channel if he was a Catholic. Catholicism is devoid of a lot of its traditions and its whole theological set up is a mess. I used to teach Catholic theology and have left it far behind me once I discovered Orthodoxy.
Mr Pageau is Orthodox through the grace of God ... the question is, unfortunately, does he follow the old julian calendar Orthodox Church or the New ecumenical Orthodox Church? The new calendar Orthodox Church broke off in 1924and has clearly united with Catholicism and other world religions in the world council of churches. There is a remnant of old calendar Orthodox Churches in existence today...seek and ye shall find. These Churches have been persecuted over the years but have kept the Faith.
They're father and son but there's a running joke where they deny that they're related. Listen to the first 2 min of this: th-cam.com/video/Z3FnjoHPotw/w-d-xo.html
I've always been skeptical to listen to anything with Spencer Klavan as he is a notorious homosexual who is "married" and even considers himself Christian of some reformed group. No homosexual can lead us in conservativism with a traditional vision by definition, but if Pageau thought he was worth listening to than I will too.
Well even sinners can be guided by God to point everyone back to him. You don't need to follow the man nor should anyone follow men like Pageau or Dyer or Peterson etc...imo these men, the latter three, point us to God. So it's to say you should follow them only as much to the degree they point/lead you to Christ. God uses them because in many cases we can't here the priest first, we tend to listen from the pov of our current state. I evolved from Peterson to Pageau to Dyer to Orthodox Priests...now I still listen to them all like even now in this video but ultimately it's what they are pointing to. Now if this gentleman is pointing you to self worship or some idea moved away from God then yeah, lol, stop listening to him.
Brother - if you are Orthodox… Let the Lord, His teachings, the Church, and the Saints be your guide of Truth, not Johnathan… Especially if you already have an issue in your conscience that’s troubling you. Blessings to you 🙏
@@larryjake7783 Lol, relatable. I went from being a completely irreligious atheistic materialist to seriously listening to and considering Peterson, then Pageau, then Dyer, and now numerous Orthodox priests and saints, in the exact order you mentioned. I am not a baptised Orthodox Christian, but found this similarity between us interesting and striking nonetheless. Are you baptised yet? What are your favorite Orthodox priests/saints?
@@candaniel lol thats so funny, yeah I'm not baptized yet either. And currently I'm reading up on St. Seraphim Rose, him being American was a big appeal to me, and I'm looking into St. Athanasius as well. As for Priests/pastors, I listen a lot to Fr. Stephen De Young. If you have any other suggestions I'd appreciate it as well.
"No homosexual can lead us in conservativism with a traditional vision by definition" Why not? A truthful view of tradition, politics, and faith from _outside the ideal paradigms_ (as Spencer acknowledges himself to be) is surely as valuable as a truthful view from within them. And 'notorious' goes too far: he has never mentioned it on his podcast, nor does he go out of his way to discuss it in interviews like these -- I only learned he was homosexual from comments like yours. Besides, I've never heard of a 'notorious' homosexual who advocated and pursued monogamy.
Thank you for the great video. I really liked the pop up footnotes. Above all it was fulfilling to assign a face to Spencer, of whom I have heard many times as I am a subscriber to Andrew’s podcast.
@@blackbeard1988 what's wrong with divinizing sewer system? God exists everywhere, even in sewers unlike the Demiurge of old testament who can only reveal himself to a certain race within certain geographic confinements, is a jealous God like a petulant child. Sewer systems are more useful imo
Thanks for this video! I’ve just moved all of my electronics and and tech outside onto the other side of my fence. Question! When the lamb I’ve ordered gets here and I put it in my living room with the tree I bought, I’ll need to corral it with another fence. Can I then bring my electronics back in since they’ll be outside of the new inner wall, or would that mean I have to live inside the small corral in my living room with the lamb? It would be easier to reach my laptop and refrigerator with them no longer in the alley, but I’m no expert on all this new Jerusalem stuff. Thanks ahead of time. Namaste!
I am going to use "weapons grade emotions". This term I actually needed.
it is what every totalitarian state bar none, is fueled on.
Yeah, man. I got a whole German castle all to myself. Just gotta let my cousin white Jesus hangout with me🙆🏽♂️🍿
I’m very sceptical of these DW types. Interesting convo, but please be careful of Spencer
Because he is gay?
I will "be careful" of anybody telling me what to think,
this chap Spencer, seems to be opening up the world, not closing it down.
@@js1423 yeah, someone who is gay and second generation Jewish is inherently suspect in religious conversation about Christianity. Obviously.
@@countdooku75 Not sure how understand this? Are you a fan of Spencer or not?
Still not sure what to make of Daily Wire... Fascinating discussion as usual though
Mixed bag at best. More or less advocates for conservatism and traditionalism in the cultural and religious sense. Also, they're advocates for neo-conservatism, corporatism, and statism in politics. The company has deep pockets from 2 brothers who initially funded it from their natural gas wealth. As an aside, the brothers belong to an unusual slice of Christianity.
For anyone who doesn't know what I mean by "mixed bag", look at Jordan Peterson. Under the Daily Wire, he gets to make content with higher production value on topics he's stronger in (psychology, culture, religion). Look at his content with both Pageau brothers, for example. But he also does more promotion of people and ideas that are pro-war (Kagan), pro foreign intervention, and pro regime change.
@@P3rformula great take.
@@P3rformula Perfect take
Shapiro is bad and has always been bad. Check out the ancient article "chicken hawk clucks" from world net daily.
@@P3rformula Not to mention the Michael Knowles/Chris Langan debacle
Great to see how Jonathan is drawing deep wisdom from Dante, as an Orthodox. Many of the themes in the Comedy are drawing from the Eastern Tradition, especially participation, transformation and the final Theosis (the overall movement of the whole work). Dante has not been taken seriously as a theologian for centuries, but luckily it's starting to change!
I wouldn't say Eastern orthodoxy had much influence on Dante. The Comedia is often called "The Summa in Verse". It is very much in line with Catholic theology.
@@superroydude Catholic Theology has it's basis in Eastern Theology. St. Thomas is the universal Doctor because he used both Eastern and Western theologians.
@@h.p6016
No that's a tautology. Catholic means Universal, it's theology is based in divine revelation.
@@superroydude I agree. But St. Thomas did use Eastern Theologians such as St. John Chyrsystom and Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite. Dante was heavily influenced by St. Thomas. Therefore, it's not strange to see EO sympathizing with Dante.
@@h.p6016 Certainly he was but my point is Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox in this case is a false dichotomy. St John Chrysostom and St Dionysius the Areopogite, while from the East, are very much Catholic saints and were when St Thomas was writing.
Jonathon should do the video on the symbolism of the China Balloon..
Maybe could think about it like a demonic "Watcher".
@@iliya3110 Is there an "over-protective" parent sort of thing in the Bible?
@@sooperd00p there are a lot of bad parents in the bible and a couple of trust bad Kings/Emperors. The ultimate Bad Boy King is Saul. At least on the Jewish side. The other empires have their bad boys to. The badest girl/mother has to be Jezebel, although the Demon Lilith is a mean bitch too.
Literally just lectured someone about paying attention🤦🏽♂️
Fear of God keeps losing hold with each passing generation..."Darwin to Dante" seem so sunlikely. The man of sin will soon enough be revealed.
Keep telling them we can win more championships. We don’t gotta rest our laurels on the diadems I racked up already😎
Truth saves. Here is something most dont know.
Clement of Alexandria in Stromata book 6:5= "Apostle Paul will show, saying: "Take also the Hellenic books, read the Sibyl (prophecy over 13,000 years ago), how it is shown that God is one (they believed in 1 God), and how the future is indicated (they prophesied 1st and others changed it). Or as other translate to sum it up as "you will find our Lord Jesus Christ written more clearly by the Greeks"
Historian Church father Bishop "Eusebius of Caesarea says that the first years after the passing of Jesus Christians were considered the Hellenized people who opposed circumcision and followed Greek customs."
& on omitted bible text which stopped short with continues "The hour is fulfilled that the Son of Man should be glorified. For Greece alone begets man, a heavenly plant, and a divine plant, a divine system, a science that is aptly understood."
So can we just go back to the Greeks then? So sick of all this Jesus talk.
@@bryanutility9609 But that may be the thing. Its all Greek.
For example the name Mary is Greek
Maria is the daughter
of Proetus king of Argos And Tiryns.
the heroin of Heroine of Arcadia daughter of Atlas one of the 12 kings of Atlantis.
one of the Nereids, daughters of Nereus and Doris.
one of the four daughters of the river god Erasinus.
Icarius of Athens pet dog.
a town of ancient Arcadia, Greece.
Church father Bishop Dorotheos of 3rd century AD said all the majority of mothers that are known of Christ's disciples (no record of Simon & Judas) had Ancient Greek names. fathers of Christ's disciples as well with Ancient Greek names which St. John & St. James the Apostles father name was Zebedeos (Ζεβ+εδαίος from Zeus+Ideal). or Zeus is perfect.
Christ top commandment was not new to the Greeks which Greek Sage Thales 600bc "Love your fellow human even if this means hurting yourself", "To love your neighbor."
You have read Sibyl? "prophecy of Sibylla Tiburtina confirms...a Greek is raised...name Jesus" Stromata 6:5= "Apostle Paul will show, saying: "Take also the Hellenic books, read the Sibyl, how it is shown that God is one..." "Pauline Christianity" was rejected since it was too Hellenic and not OT enough.
Serbian Theology school "The Christian “reception” of Hellenism is the reason, important at least as much as it is neglected, of our essential interest for Hellenic culture, which (in distinction to other cultures"
Church father Eusebius bishop of Caesarea on omitted bible text which stopped short with continues, when the Greeks went to see Christ "The hour is fulfilled that the Son of Man should be glorified. For Hellas alone begets man, a heavenly plant, and a divine plant, a divine system, a science that is aptly understood."
Russian Orthodox Theologian Fr. Florovsky "Everything in early Christianity is Greek. We are all Greeks in our thinking as Christians." & "Hellenism has placed its eternal character upon the Church. It has become an inseparable part of her very being and as such every Christian is, to some extent, a Hellene. Hellenism is not simply a phase in the history of Christianity but a cornerstone in its life"
@@trench01 tldr. I find the Bible stories boring and absurd to take literally
@@bryanutility9609 what exacly? Do u also find what ancient greeks philosophers said absurd? Everythinh everyone has is due to them and the world was as a stand still for thousands of years
@@trench01 no I don’t find myself “believing” a Jew died for my sins on the cross is anything like the story of Troy. Also the Greeks & Romans as culture left a legacy.
I don’t see anything inspiring in the Bible, sorry. Also nobody worships Homer they just enjoy the stories. It’s a totally different and unrelated frame.
I love the part about evolution and how from that emerges the notion that value-based selection is weaven into the very fabricate of reality itself. That makes so much sense to me, and it's also the part of Jordan Petersons work I'm most fascinated by.
As long as you don’t start from the assumption that “the most good for the most people” is the highest good. None of these people have an argument against “might makes right”.
I dont understand. Spencer is gay. He knows how to save the west but cant even save himself from his mortal sin?
As the kids say....this is sus....
I think this was a brilliant discussion.
This was such an amazing conversation. I have long wished Jonathan would sit down with Andrew Klavan. I still hope it happens, but this was also amazing.
Andrew is a subversive Jew who loves diversity and loves seeing white people become a minority. Why doesn’t he want Jews to become a minority in Israel?
c. 24 mins: Is the Trinity an aporia, an irresolvable contradiction? Isn't it more correctly understood as a paradox, a preterrational reality that can still be approached with grace by reason?
Return the west to Holy Orthodoxy!
Save the west by helping the KGB infiltrating it, heckin BASED BRO WHOAH
Return the west to the Holy Roman Catholic Church
Christ is at the heart of human relevance. Whereas, nihilism wrongfully decontextualizes the world for human action, and thus makes us feel lost in an ocean of meaninglessness.
I don’t need god to give my life meaning not do I need the rest of the world to validate myself.
40:34 World economic forum is a notion of the good?
Being quite new to these guys' work, I have a little reservation on the argument about evolution, and I'd be happy to get some responses.
The argument that "all selection implies a good" is sound, but it seems to rest on what I've always thought was a pop-cultural distortion of what natural selection means, albeit a distortion rendered very tempting by the use of the word "selection". What actually happens, as I've always understood it, is that when a certain pressure exerts itself on a certain population (e.g. rats getting eaten by eagles), the members of the species most likely to survive are those with traits that happen to help them respond to that particular pressure (e.g. rats whose fur colour makes it harder for eagles to spot them). There are a multitude of pressures exerting themselves on a population of organisms at any given time, and so in practice those most likely to survive are those who have a whole balance of factors which makes them more able to shrug off those pressures (and produce healthy offspring). We call this process "selection" because it's an intuitively appealing way to think about this whole web of pressures and likelihoods, but it can nonetheless be explained without presupposing that nature is selecting organisms wilfully.
And as in the example with the rats, the trait that's likely to be passed down isn't always dominance or aggression - it could just as well be the ability to scurry into a hole quickly and lay low when needed. The logic behind this is not one of virtue, but neither is it one of power and dominance.
(By the way, if anyone with a deeper knowledge of evolutionary biology than myself would like to correct this account, please do - there's always a chance that I'm talking with unwarranted confidence about something I don't really understand.)
We can still speak of a "good" in natural selection, but of the limited, relative, practical kind. Nietzsche would identify this as the older, pre-metaphysical kind of good, the useful, the serviceable - something he sees as distinct from moral/metaphysical good in the Judeo-Christian sense. If we then "jump to Dante," I can only imagine that means seeing the hierarchy of virtues as a laying out of the traits most conducive to survival across all the sets of circumstance humans are likely to encounter. (If I'm not mistaken, Jordan Peterson makes an argument very similar to this in some of his lectures.)
But this jump collapses the distinction between metaphysical and pre-metaphysical good in favour of the latter: that is, it collapses "what's right" into "what's useful/serviceable/conducive to survival", with the Good standing at most as a kind of meta-serviceability. Jonathan seems aware of this difference insofar as he refers to evolution as building metaphysics "from the bottom up", but I don't think the consequences of this bottom-upping were fully explored in this discussion.
I imagine that most of us, at a certain level, wouldn't be content with the view of Good that I've just suggested evolution leads us to; I suspect we'd feel there's something missing from it. My own hunch is that, for a bottom-up metaphysics, beauty is a better starting point, and one which evolution largely bypasses. (Plato's Symposium is a fractal text that we could all spend a long time discussing.) I'd love to hear what others think.
I wish we had got more into this in the discussion. I have some concerns with the bottom-up approach as well. If it's not balanced out. Alongside what you said, there is no binding agent that we should all ascend to. I hope to explore this in further conversations with Jonathan (and elsewhere).
@@MoreChrist Thanks for the reply, I'll be keeping an eye out for that!
Red flag upload. I'm out
I made it an hour into this before realizing he was Andrew Klavan's son. Holy cats
Now im picturing a bunch of cats sitting on one side of a table drinking wine and breaking tuna together.
Mr Pageau is Orthodox through the grace of God ... the question is, unfortunately, does he follow the old julian calendar Orthodox Church or the New ecumenical Orthodox Church? The new calendar Orthodox Church broke off in 1924and has clearly united with Catholicism and other world religions in the world council of churches. There is a remnant of old calendar Orthodox Churches in existence today...seek and ye shall find.
These Churches have been persecuted over the years but have kept the Faith.
stick to the program and leave politics out
Great reminder about hierarchy too👨👦
Jonathan when you say all selection including natural selection implies a Good, does that not rest on your definition of Good?
I would go one step further, to say, that video games, allow us to see this fractal pattern with greater clarity.
This is very calming and therapeutic,
it seems with the dominance of the scientific world view, it is causing great anxiety and stress.
Unless it is properly framed.
Jonathan mentions 2024 as a terrible year. What does he think will happen then?
YOOOOOOO I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS DUO FOR YEARS! I'll take complete credit for this since I commented on both Young Heretics and Jonathan Pageau videos that they should have a conversation.
Next step is for Jonathan to talk with the unrelated Andrew Klavan.
Pretty sure he's Andrew's son.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.
If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.
The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"
-lao tzu
Fr Seraphim Rose is fantastic.
Hello all. Jonathan, I would like to explore the your denomination, What study bible is your favorite? Thank you.
He is pre-denominational. Orthodox.
Why will 2024 be a crazy year?
Luke 11:10((C.E.V.))👨👩👧👦
**More Christ you say?😁
I hope we can and God graces us, but believe we are likely in the escalating patterns of AntiChrist. Either way the pre-political religious salvation of souls is the answer.
The anti christians are among us but so are the soldiers of God, that is what I believe.
@@JamecBond thats fact, not belief
@@JamecBond God bless. We are in the army. Hold the line brother.
11:30 - that is an unbelievably great definition
This part was great:
Spencer Klavan:
It seems to me that...this kind of nested structure, this representative symbolic structure is inherent in the Trinity itself. In other words, it's not simply something that has to do with the way that God must express himself to man and among humanity because of our distance from him or because of our embodiment in matter, but that actually, it comes along even in a pre-lapsarian way, bound up with our nature as images of God. That we are three in one already, kind of within an individual, there's symbolic language going on, even in our thought, private thoughts to ourselves. Aristotle says, you know, no thought is an image, but no thought takes place without images, without pictures, fantasia either. And I wonder whether trinitarian theology...you would know a lot more about the patristic literature on this than I...it's a kind of an article of trinitarian faith that something about this symbolic gesture is inherent in God's nature of itself.
Jonathan Pageau:
I mean, obviously, I don't want to misstep. I always hate talk about trinitarian theology lest someone calls me a heretic, you know, and I don't even know why, but I think that definitely the one...I think the moon of the mysteries of the revelation of the Trinity is the notion that multiplicity is in the godhead, right? That in God is both perfect unity and perfect multiplicity, and in some ways, it's an aporia because obviously we can't make sense of it, but it's not an aporia that is just arbitrary or illogical because we can see in that aporia of proposing perfect unity and perfect multiplicity that we see that happen at lower and more imperfect levels in the world. So in the world, we notice the coexistence of unity and multiplicity, and we can see when that is balanced, like when there's love, and love is holding multiplicity in unity, and we can see that. I think that we are meant to live as an image of the Trinity, for sure, and I think that's why I really do believe that the Trinity...I mean, I'm preaching for my own Parish or whatever, but I do believe that the trinitarian revelation in some ways is met, even metaphysically, it's like the deepest way to talk about the infinite that I can think of. Because the problem with the kind of monadic vision, right of the one, and that type of language...I mean, I don't want to reduce the neo-Platonists, but it can be dangerous because it tends to diminish multiplicity as being derivative and as being almost fallen in itself, at a kind of Gnostic move that we saw at the beginning of Christianity. But trinitarianism really puts multiplicity as being in the very infinite itself. That's... it's astounding to me, like... it's a beautiful image.
You cheated.
@@vagabondcaleb8915 It's already on More Christ's channel
That is fair but it is also important to understand that Unity is primary to multiplicity in the sense that Unity and multiplicity are united in One. That does not degrade multiplicity in the least but it is the reason that other traditions emphasise the importance of asserting the primacy of the One. So, as it would be a caricature to say that Christianity, in all its forms, denies the One it is also a caricature to say that the traditions that emphasise the One deny the many.
@@arono9304 I know. You don't need to explain how you cheated...
Does anyone know why Jonathan is orthodox instead of catholic. Not biased just curious
He has videos explaining his background.
He literally wouldn't have the ability or knowledge to do this channel if he was a Catholic. Catholicism is devoid of a lot of its traditions and its whole theological set up is a mess. I used to teach Catholic theology and have left it far behind me once I discovered Orthodoxy.
Because doesn't believe in Fatima
@@nbusiness9175 Why is Catholic theology a mess ?
Mr Pageau is Orthodox through the grace of God ... the question is, unfortunately, does he follow the old julian calendar Orthodox Church or the New ecumenical Orthodox Church? The new calendar Orthodox Church broke off in 1924and has clearly united with Catholicism and other world religions in the world council of churches. There is a remnant of old calendar Orthodox Churches in existence today...seek and ye shall find.
These Churches have been persecuted over the years but have kept the Faith.
Might have something to do with his French heritage perhaps?🤔
Thanks
Is Spencer related to Andrew Klavan by any chance?
That’s his son.
Absolutely no relation whatsoever.
He is Andrew’s son.
no. they have no relation
They're father and son but there's a running joke where they deny that they're related. Listen to the first 2 min of this: th-cam.com/video/Z3FnjoHPotw/w-d-xo.html
Nothing like having a conversation about how to save the west with a literal homosexual jew.
Klaven: what an awesome voice.
57:49
This
What is your preferred translation of Plato's works?
Personally, my vote is Benjamin Jowett's translation, particularly his work on Plato's Republic. It's a very clean, crisp and readable version.
I've always been skeptical to listen to anything with Spencer Klavan as he is a notorious homosexual who is "married" and even considers himself Christian of some reformed group. No homosexual can lead us in conservativism with a traditional vision by definition, but if Pageau thought he was worth listening to than I will too.
Well even sinners can be guided by God to point everyone back to him.
You don't need to follow the man nor should anyone follow men like Pageau or Dyer or Peterson etc...imo these men, the latter three, point us to God. So it's to say you should follow them only as much to the degree they point/lead you to Christ.
God uses them because in many cases we can't here the priest first, we tend to listen from the pov of our current state. I evolved from Peterson to Pageau to Dyer to Orthodox Priests...now I still listen to them all like even now in this video but ultimately it's what they are pointing to.
Now if this gentleman is pointing you to self worship or some idea moved away from God then yeah, lol, stop listening to him.
Brother - if you are Orthodox… Let the Lord, His teachings, the Church, and the Saints be your guide of Truth, not Johnathan…
Especially if you already have an issue in your conscience that’s troubling you.
Blessings to you 🙏
@@larryjake7783 Lol, relatable. I went from being a completely irreligious atheistic materialist to seriously listening to and considering Peterson, then Pageau, then Dyer, and now numerous Orthodox priests and saints, in the exact order you mentioned. I am not a baptised Orthodox Christian, but found this similarity between us interesting and striking nonetheless. Are you baptised yet? What are your favorite Orthodox priests/saints?
@@candaniel lol thats so funny, yeah I'm not baptized yet either. And currently I'm reading up on St. Seraphim Rose, him being American was a big appeal to me, and I'm looking into St. Athanasius as well.
As for Priests/pastors, I listen a lot to Fr. Stephen De Young. If you have any other suggestions I'd appreciate it as well.
"No homosexual can lead us in conservativism with a traditional vision by definition" Why not? A truthful view of tradition, politics, and faith from _outside the ideal paradigms_ (as Spencer acknowledges himself to be) is surely as valuable as a truthful view from within them. And 'notorious' goes too far: he has never mentioned it on his podcast, nor does he go out of his way to discuss it in interviews like these -- I only learned he was homosexual from comments like yours. Besides, I've never heard of a 'notorious' homosexual who advocated and pursued monogamy.
that beard lmao
Wonderful! Thanks!
Thank you for the great video. I really liked the pop up footnotes. Above all it was fulfilling to assign a face to Spencer, of whom I have heard many times as I am a subscriber to Andrew’s podcast.
Go to church every sunday
How will that save western civilization? lol
And, when he leaves I’ll be talking again😂
🌚☄️❤️💫
Ikr?🤴🏽
West needs to revitalize the Philosophy of Ancient Greeks like Stoicism, Platonism etc
Look into its Pagan past of heroes & gods.
Nah that would be Larping Notzeeism like in Ukraine
Yeah! So we can kill the weak and divinize the local sewer system
@@blackbeard1988 what's wrong with divinizing sewer system? God exists everywhere, even in sewers unlike the Demiurge of old testament who can only reveal himself to a certain race within certain geographic confinements, is a jealous God like a petulant child.
Sewer systems are more useful imo
How does slave morality save us?
I'm sure you're a joy at parties
Wolf of Odin has arrived to EDUCATE
Nietzsche couldnt even save himself, spare us his assessment of Christianity 🤣
it saves us from making out with horses, at least
Drunken archery is a bad idea. Not only are you missing the target you're not even at the range.
Thanks for this video! I’ve just moved all of my electronics and and tech outside onto the other side of my fence. Question! When the lamb I’ve ordered gets here and I put it in my living room with the tree I bought, I’ll need to corral it with another fence. Can I then bring my electronics back in since they’ll be outside of the new inner wall, or would that mean I have to live inside the small corral in my living room with the lamb? It would be easier to reach my laptop and refrigerator with them no longer in the alley, but I’m no expert on all this new Jerusalem stuff. Thanks ahead of time. Namaste!
What?