Enlightenment and the Righteous Mind | Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt | EP 198
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2024
- This episode was recorded on June 6th, 2021.
Dr Peterson, Steven Pinker, and Jonathan Haidt sit down to discuss truth, how societies function, utopias, the role of religion, & more.
Steven Pinker is a psychology professor at Harvard. He's the author of Enlightenment Now and The Blank Slate. His 12th book, "Rationality," is out now. Dr. Pinker has received many awards and often writes for The Guardian and The NY Times.
Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at NYU Stern. His research focuses on the intuitive foundations of morality across cultures. He's the author of The Righteous Mind and The Coddling of the American Mind. His next book, "Three Stories about Capitalism," is expected by 2022.
Follow Steven's Twitter:
/ sapinker
Read Steven Pinker's book:
stevenpinker.com/publications...
Find more Jonathan Haidt here:
www.thecoddling.com/
Read Jonathan's book:
www.amazon.com/Coddling-Ameri...
Jonathan's most recent essay:
www.persuasion.community/p/ha...
Jonathan's Substack: postliberal.substack.com/p/sm...
____
[0:00] Intro
[00:18] Jordan introduces guests Dr. Stephen Pinker and Dr. Jonathan Haidt
[02:47] Catching up with the recent research and endeavors of Jonathan Haidt. Elaborating on the framework of moralism versus true and false when viewing the world
[07:00] How cognitive biases lead to a more pessimistic view of the world
[10:30] The problems with the idea of utopia and its beneficial uses when properly inserted into a society's belief (religious) structure
[18:00] Examining the role group religions play in bringing people together
[24:30] Jordan highlights the role he believes Christianity had in turning people's attention to the evil within us all
[29:30] Reflections on Enlightenment Now. How do you engage people towards a higher set of goals without religion as a backbone?
[38:00] Is the world we live in a new frontier based on the expanding influence of the internet and social media on individuals' decision-making?
[48:00] Discussion on the dangers posed by the new world to the endurance of liberal democracies
[56:00] Finding truth in the post-2012 social media revolution
[1:06:00] The rate of change in modern life / Saying goodbye to Dr. Pinker due to time constraints
[1:07:00] The Righteous Mind, Haidt's interpretation of the religious instinct/impulse and why he gets a positive reaction from religious crowds
[1:17:30] The human ability for imitation through learning or exploring
[1:25:30] Religion as a social function? Or an inherent impulse inside us all to find higher states?
[1:29:30] Comparing views on the central uniting principle of groups, societies, or human beings for that matter
[1:33:00] Is the extreme claim that power is the central driving factor of western European civilization grounded in reality?
[1:37:52] Is having a common purpose or shared beliefs a more powerful way of bringing people together?
[1:45:00] Recounting Haidt's research on disgust in both humans and animals
[1:52:00] Exploring any correlation to disgust levels and political beliefs/alliance
[02:02:30] Wrapping up
____
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Dr. Peterson has appeared on many popular podcasts and shows, including the Joe Rogan Experience, The Rubin Report, H3H3, and many more. Dr. Peterson’s own podcast has focused mainly on his lecture series, covering a great deal of psychology and historical content. Jordan is expanding his current podcast from lectures to interviews with influential people around the world. We hope you enjoy this episode and more to come from Dr. Peterson in the future.
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There's a great quote: "Journalism is a highly non random sample of the worst things that have happened in any given period" (Steven Pinker)
Haidt is great for showing data that proves things are objectively terrible right now, which nicely offsets Pinker's somewhat foolish and short-sighted optimism. Studies literally prove that, by self-report and objective data, women were happier in 1980 more than 2010. That speaks to a real issue, I would assume. This is clearly the case if you rank 'happiness' very highly, as people like Pinker tend to, and the Left as a whole. Of course, some of Pinker's data is pretty simple and true, such as the fact that most people have food now (and, poverty won't even exist in like 50 years -- and that does reject the radical Left's Cold War on poverty, as it were, because Pinker's data already proves that poverty isn't much of an issue on the global scale compared to even 1980).
@@TheClassicWorld I wonder how much of the unhappy women problem has to do with more women in the workforce, social media, and family structure changes over time. I'm typically happiest not when things are easy, or when things are overwhelmingly difficult, but when life is challenging. My joy comes from overcoming issues and reaching goals and making people laugh. Are things too easy now, or impossibly difficult, or maybe they judge happiness differently than I do.
@@cubic-h6041 I think you are very awesome to share your personal data on what gives you happiness. I think a lot of people share your values in terms of what makes happiness ?
Challenges, tenacity, endurance, and eventually succeeding at being happy 😃
I think happiness absolutely can be attainable in this life
The price to attaining happiness , perhaps 🤔 may be the fact that we ironically experience sorrow and suffering along the same road
The Via Dolorosa
@@TheClassicWorld Self-reports on happiness globally are on the rise. Cherrypicking data isn't the answer.
@@blamtasticful That's true. Maybe the "unhappy women" are a poorly selected survey of box wine cat ladies who "don't need a man" until about 45, or at least their partied out/career burnout mid 30s?
Although I think social/religious/sports club participation has been declining for decades and maybe it's my own bubble, but I think most people are more isolated than they probably were historically which probably isn't ideal for most people's mental health.
Jordan: “Let me see where we disagree”
Jonathon: “Yes! That’d be fun”
These conversations are very enjoyable.
How does he miss that imitation is the mechanism for synchronicity, or at least a large component of it, for example at concerts and sports events doing the wave etc? I like Haidt but he really fumbled the ball on this one and Peterson is also quite right.
I also think things like the persuit of truth through Logos and other traits of the gods etc that Peterson describes emerging over thousands of years is likely a hive level function rather than the conscious focused intention of individual people who believe in supernatural things. Evolution doesn't generally design by conscious intention, why would emergent behavior from all of society over thousands of years match the limitations of the average humans consciousness? Wouldn't the emergent myths and archetypes come out subconsciously in that random stories examples and things will resonate with the masses while other things won't without them knowing why?
Humans need not have a perfect grasp of reality in order to be in awe of people or archetypal characters that are more truthful and grounded than the normal person. I mean people seem endlessly fascinated by seeing humans who do impossible physical feats in combat, fly etc, that is regularly seen in cartoons and an endless amount of super hero content. Certainly we observe that someone being super human at morality in some way has emotive power too. Truth and/or accuracy to reality is a high virtue of sorts, even if most people aren't these things and even have to be incredulous to believe in tales of them. An emergent archetype of an embodied ideal is certainly a compelling explanation for a lot of things. Although we so like the duality of flawed heroes, which is why superman is boring but One Punch Man is not.
They all dropped the ball on Wikipedia, the legacy media's artificial unity through manufactured consent, and the observable virtues of social media in a giving voice to legitimate dissent/dissenters (of which Peterson himself was one) and accurate off narrative facts and evidence, or conspiracy theories that eventually become actual news. But having already made a long post about that, I won't repeat myself about it in detail here.
@@TheJeremyKentBGross
"Social justice types unleash the Dragon of Chaos upon the divine Logos probably because of their creeping moral relativism and disdain for science, archetypally speaking." - Jordan Peterson.
"The postmodernists who hate truth dismiss the Big Five personality traits based on their bloody radical collectivism, and I will not be silenced." - Jordan Peterson.
"Advocates for carbohydrates are polluting the dream-like significance of revealed Truth because of their sick way of taking my words out of context, which you can confirm by watching the Rubin Report." - Jordan Peterson.
@Jeremy Gross
"...legitimate dissent/dissenters (of which Peterson himself was one)"
I don't see him ever being one since he worked for UN quite a while ago.
@Jeremy Gross
Come on, Shillterson is all over the place on 'legacy media'. Like for years. He's not persecuted in any way, not being canceled; he makes millions, his books are bestsellers, he's the most cited of contemporary psychologist and stuff...
@@xslt1692 They tried, and failed, to cancel him. From what I have seen.
Don't get me wrong, there three all seem to be ignorant about the state of Wikipedia and the terrible dishonest bias of legacy media, maybe even are trying to somewhat vanguard it. But otherwise idk what you are trying to say.
Three of the most profound, well-grounded, intelligent and important public intellectuals of our time in one conversation that we can see for free. We are truly privileged to live in these times.
Perhaps one or two, definitely not Pinker for god sakes.
Perhaps one or two, definitely not Peterson for god sakes.
You two make a quality comedy duo.
@@adamcohen7361 you must be a christian
Pinker was on Epsteins plane in 2002. He knew him before and after his first conviction in 2006 and in 2008 helped writing for his defense team that Epstein broke no laws when luring minors across state lines over the weekend internet. After Epstein was convicted of sex crimes with minors Pinker was photographed having dinner with him several more times. You need to radically examine your gullibility when it comes to character.
It’s amazing how Johnathan was able to conduct an interview while flying a helicopter.
Audibly laughed at this one 😂 thanks a lot
No, no he's not flying a helicopter, he is just resting on a really, really high rock. 🤔I'm sure of it.
Thats Steven
@@AhmedHassan-eu3zm ...I think this is the answer.
LOL. Utopia: a world where cheesy backdrops and airbrushed backdrops don’t exist.
Watching from far away Sahara in the heart of Africa. Jordan Peterson is touching more lives than he can ever realize. He is reviving the entire world. I feel like he is the mentor I have always dreamed of. In fact, I learned English because of and through Jordan Peterson. Do I need to say that this encounter changed my life? It did, TOTALY.
Jordan Peterson a neo-nazi? Are you kidding me? I am a black African Muslim, and certainly his number one fan. And I have never ever heard something that even resembles a hint of nazi-friendliness on his part.
Jordan Peterson showed me how to sort my soul out and take over the world as a consequence. I will abide.
I Thank God for your life Mr. Peterson.
Salamualikom habibi :)
@@texyo Salam
@@boulkassoumharounadankasso5254 Just so you know - if you don’t already - Jordan Peterson plans on inviting Mohammed Hijab for a podcast to discuss Islam on November 8th. Look out for it, should be a good one Inshallah.
I hope you’re doing well man, may Allah guide us both Inshallah
@@texyo I know about this appointment. I am eagerly looking forward to it. I hope it wil be a dual, not a duel.
On a totally unrelated note, are you from Morocco?
@@boulkassoumharounadankasso5254 "I hope it wil [sic] be a dual, not a duel." That's a beautiful pun which I will shamelessly steal/imitate. Minus the typo ;-)
PS: "I will abide." Seems deeply meaningful but I can't discern what you're expressing with that statement in that context. Would you mind elaborating?
Please, have Thomas Sowell on the podcast. It would shine a little bit of wisdom upon us all.
sadly both of them are retired, they're just taking her easy now
Sowell would be a GREAT conversation. He and Victor Davis Hansen belonged to a small group of intellectuals who would often have lunch together, it would be awesome to have those 2 on together just to hear the conversations they usually have.
He's pretty old though, so idk if he can still manage a 2 hour convo in one sitting
Yes. Thomas Sowell, OG IDW.
Up
Jonathan Haidt might be the nicest straight forward - no, but, look - interlocutor I have ever witnessed. Great, great pleasure to listen to this.
Possibly the most reasonable known human.
The beginning of this podcast made me think of that quote by C.S. Lewis:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
This sprung to my mind as well.
YeS CS Lewis, Chesterson, Jung, were men way ahead of their time. Pinker always likes to look at the bright side but i wouldnt want him in military arena!
Great quote
Yeah well that's the problem with utilitarian ethics.
@@srourfamily I might, if only as a moderating or at least questioning voice about what to think about doing with a victory, and perhaps as a warning against some acts that might make a victory Pyrrhic, at least in an ethical/moral sense. I also don't equate optimism with being naive; I doubt anyone could have studied for so long without having some pretty good ideas of the possibilities of human awfulness.
Having said that, yes it's probably not much use having him around in a firefight, but then that's likely true of 99.99% of the population. ;-D
Cheers
Haven't seen such a strong cast since Goodfellas.
Yup
Ocean’s 11.
Sopranos.... which is about 3/4 the cast from Goodfellas
Lol
I thought you said that you were alright spider
I love having these three together. Enough similarity to build on ideas and close enough differences to really challenge and critique each other's input.
Oh no Steven Pinker missed Jeffrey Epstein
I noticed that as well. Because they were in general agreement, they didn’t need to waste time on broad philosophical disagreements. They were able to focus in and hash out the finer points that would usually have been missed.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - “The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart”
“What Solzhenitsyn figured out in the 20th C. Is that if you live a pathological life, you Pathologize your society, and if enough people do that then it’s Hell. And you can read the Gulag Archipelago, if you have the fortitude to do that, and you’ll see exactly what Hell is like. And you can decide if that’s a place you’d like to visit, or even more importantly, if it’s a place you’d like to visit and take all your family and friends. Because that’s exactly what happened in the 20th Century.”
- Dr. Jordan B. Peterson
“fortitude and hell” true. That book is profoundly disturbing.
Absolutely, I had to take breaks when reading it, if you are really thinking about what's going on in gulag, it can be too much negativity to ingest in small time periods.
Excellent
Pinker and Haidt are two of my favourite intellectuals. Seeing them in the same video is awesome.
I love Jonathan Haidt! He’s a great listener, an eloquent speaker, emotionally neutral or excited, but never negative. I aspire to be like Haidt.
"Peterson, Pinker, Haidt" sounds like a prog rock band
They would certainly be writing some pretty proggy lyrics
Look out for their latest singles, “Death to Moralism” and “Wrath of the Underworld”.
More like a firm of lawyers
Yup
yeah they're very avant garde. they eschew instruments in favor of conversation and they aren't even in the same room when they perform! next level!
My father, Steven Pinker recommended me listening to you, Jordan , via your lectures and gave me your book 12 rules about 5/6 years ago and found it incredibly encouraging and useful. now I listen to you as often as I can. now here you are today talking to a different and as far as I know, of no relation of mine, Steven Pinker! My father is gone- so the parallel I know however factually insignificant, bought me a chuckle today and reminded me of a joyful memory of my father. Also great discussion!
◾Thanks for commenting and your time here really appreciate.
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Are you interested in the investment
@Darren I wouldn't be so absolute in thinking that searching is indeed foolish Darren.........
@Darren Jordan hasnt poluted Christianity, he isnt dogmatic, he has been debating atheists for years, without using miracles or OUR faith, I dont think it's up to us to decide how one comes to Christ or doesnt, we can never see another's path or purpose. Dont get me wrong, if one places him too highly it could be dangerous, but what Jordan is understanding is undeniably in line with living right, it doesnt bear the trappings you are looking for, but the CONCEPTS, of right action are prerequisite to REPENTANCE, as he equates belief with your actions, just like Christ demands for his grace, it isnt entirely free, we do offer our repentance, which only bears fruit through our actions in Christ.
@Darren also I've seen him actually suggest people not go that route with psychedelics, its empirical evidence for spiritual existence, and does open up receptors, and I definitely dont think most of the spiritual experiences people have on psychedelics are from any spirit being from God, and are always deceiving on some level.
Love it when Jonathan starts his conversation with: “That’s right.” It’s very calming
That's right. It is very calming.
xD
Jonathan always has such a kind tone of voice. So he doesn't take any shit and yet still doesn't come out as an asshole. A useful skill I lack.
These are literally my three favourite psychologists right here! Dream come true. They all have impacted my life more than I could ever explain!
Right. I frankly had a fairly low view of that field until I started listening to these three.
While I wasn't familiar with Jordan Haidt prior to this, he fits so well with Peterson and Pinker. Great video filled with great content.
Yes, I particularly value Haidt's alarm call on the huge gulf that came between Left and Right.
@@alanchampagne6069 Jon Haidt is the original. He's been sounding the alarm bells about campus social justice since 2012.
Also wrote a book in 2006 about the wisdom in ancient texts.
@@jesperburns Do you maybe happen to know if there is a first part of this video? (The „abrupt“ beginning let me to believe this)…If so, do you have a link? I can’t find it. Thanks
My life and relationships get better every day that I listen to Dr Peterson.
Its refreshing to listen to someone whos brain works !
That's great and you should read Haidt and Pinker's work too. I would say especially Haidt's happiness hypothesis.
He is a sensible person.
Same!
Steven: data is a must
Jordan: let’s conjure inspiring hypotheses
Jonathan: looks like I’m in the middle then
Classic Jonathan
Hahaha!!
Pure gold! I love how these guys can have an open discussion while being acutely aware of their own inherent biases
Dr Peterson continues to be that lighthouse for those lost at sea.
Yup
Well said. I like that. A shining beacon of light, indeed.
Three unbelievable minds here. I can barely fathom this epic crossover.
Douglas Murray and Gad Saad would be nice additions to this discussion
IKR!!! Minds from which I have learned a lot have met up!
Dodging all the big issues of the day and finding common ground in their bottoms. Disappoint intensifies
not really unbelievable. more like predictable.
2 very average minds here and Jordan Peterson. After about one hour of this conversation, I have to say these gentlemen don't seem to have much of a clue.
I watched this over the course of a few days on purpose. I needed to hear people have a fair and intellectual conversation throughout the week. Gives me so much hope. I loved being a fly on this wall. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I've read 2 books from each of these authors. Amazing that they're coming together in a podcast. I feel so lucky
What pinker books do you recommend?
@@zaunaura Enlightenment Now was my favorite. The last chapter was meh, but the entire rest of it was great. It’s a nice book to balance your worldview, given how the media is currently. Also, while I haven’t read it yet, I’ve heard "The language instinct" is really good. I intend to read it eventually
The Blank Slate and Better Angels of Our Nature are the best, most far reaching books of Pinker. But even the really old ones are quite good still, like How the Mind Works and The Language Instinct.
Dr. Peterson, Your interviews and guests are like voices in the wilderness. Listening to you and your guests is so stimulating and helps me to integrate the many thoughts and observations that I have made throughout the years. Thank you for your intellect and courage in your search for truth.
@C K in which part did you find humor?
@@josephpilkus1127 I think he meant Jeffrey Epstein
😶
Exactly there random ideas that exist or I discover and then I couldn't able to integrate them or find a connection with each other. But an instinct says there must be some pieces you are missing. And then listening to his podcasts makes me go gotcha thanks.
Intellectual dialogue without the rancour. What a joy to hear. I have found this video to be most informative such that I have listened to it three times so far, there is so much to absorb. Too little of this in the world today. More please!
Respect to the Hitch.
Yes more please and more.
Thank you for the immense value you’re bringing in the midst of shallow stuff we’re being expose to. 🙏
This is so good. I hadn't listened to JBP in some months. It's good to see him fully recovered and leading probably the best chain of intellectual conversations available to the wide public.
Wonderful work, I'm very thankful for all of this. Keep going!
Oh my word, this is amazing. Dr. Peterson, you are changing the world by allowing scholarly conversations back in the public space. Thank you so very much.
3 brilliant men. Quite the “think tank” here. What a pleasure to share time with this group.
Yes, definitely need more conversations like this.
I see one brilliant man here. Then one is fluff, and the other has no truth. Jordan is the brilliant one.
love Jonathan Haidt!!! 3 of the best intellectuals coming together - what a treat
How awesome that we can all be a fly on the wall of a conversation between people like this.
Steven: Glass is half full
Jordan: Glass is half empty
Jonathan: Which glass?
Lovely talk
Man, this was an excellent episode. I loved The Happiness Hypothesis and was thrilled to see Jonathan on this episode. I really appreciate how receptive of a listener and conversationalist he is.
Absolutely loved this discussion. Thank you so much gentlemen.
The better angels of our nature is my favorite book of all time! I couldn’t stop reading it.
If it wasn't enough to get my two favorite professors of psychology recording a conversation on youtube, adding Dr. Pinker was the icing on the cake. Excellent content coming from JP's channel this year.
So great to see Jordan really feeling better, he’s been working hard even under pain but his pain is finally easing and he’s able to move and think more easily and freely.
Thank God he's back, cos he's a VERY important voice
He really sounds like he did before getting ill.
When he first came back from being ill he didn’t sound like himself. Nor can he tolerate talking for very long. Sounds like his back to normal or normal as possible
Fantastic discussion by brilliant thinkers - much appreciated!
I hadn't realized it but it was the first time I had laughed or even really smiled today ; I was so happy to hear Steven's joke. Thanks doc -- good one. Of course, perfect(ed) delivery! Love it.
26:16 Jonathan Haidt: “Aaaaaah”… that’s me all day when I listen to Peterson… his brain is truly magnificent
"The problem with journalism being that it is a highly non-random sample of the worst things that are happening at any given period; it is an availability machine... driven by anecdotes to images and narratives that are avaialble in memory"
Nicely put!
Yeah, what a killer observation, thanks
A great example of how to discuss ideas, disagree, agree, and refine arguments. Thank you for the great work.
I could easy have listened to this for twice as long! What a great conversation! I really hope Haidt and Pinker will come back soon.
"The more connected a generation is, the more depressed it is. Gen Z is the most connected generation and the most depressed. They're also the most lonely. The more connected you are, the lonelier you are; because it's not real connection" - Jonathan Haidt
If you where to beat me up and and hate me. You'd still be worth dying for even if you did evil. That'd be the truth.
To suffer for rightousness is a blessing. Its hard to believe that but if you love the truth you will find it.
Imo
It's leapfrog connection
I'm not seeing this in the Gen Z I know. If anything, they are highly pragmatic and have zero tolerance for BS. I wonder if it depends on geography?
Misses a n important nuance where the positive feedback or confirmation bias steers the conversation. Think bananas on a ladder experiment.
Why drive across the country to see grandma when you can just video chat her? Human interactions have lost their value from instant gratification.
Lovely "old school" discussion. I love both these guys, I appreciate that Jonathan is a more pragmatic guy, and Jordan has almost a holy transcended approach. Kind of hard for them to agree, but they are both patient and I think they love this. I long for the eighties when no one questioned this kind of discourse....Keep it up.
As a gen x (the forgotten generation. But the one that brought all the technology that changed everything for the ingrate subsequent millennials and gen Z's) I agree with you. I think they can't deny the effect and depth of thought jordan gives and has given to society. Especially what he done for men. He is in my view a modern day Saint for young men
If pre pandemic is old school
@@frederickarchibaldchumly-w2163technically, all those technological advances were created before gen x. Ijs... if you want credit for this current mess.. feel free, but no, your generation didn't invent anything but guilt free hubris.
@@waynestarr6705
could you define these generations in ranges of birth years please?
i think it might clarify a lot.
Furthermore, I think it is quite shallow to take pride /ownership of a generations achievements. One should do this with ones own actions
@@waynestarr6705 to give you a great peterson quote. As you say current mess. "to what are you comparing it to".
I am continually amazed (after going to schools and collegiate institutions) that 'teach us to think critically,' how much more I learn from these amazing and brilliant people. As a business owner and family man, I don't have much time to consume content; but when I do, damn! is it fulfilling. And I can come away feeling a little less ignorant than I was yesterday. What an amazing (and free) conversation.
Absolutely loved listening to this. One of my favorite JBP podcasts so far (and that says a lot.)
Pinker and Haidt are the kind of liberals that are tolerable, even enjoyable to listen to. The sort of classical academic types I remember from school 10 -15 years ago.
God, 10-15 years ago. Fittingly to this discussion, even then seems like a utopia compared to now.
it's mind-boggling that these two are being targeted by activists/media and painted as controversial. like you said, how these guys currently behave was pinnacle performance of left-leaning academia 10+ years ago. it was just implied as virtuous to seek truth in the face of discomfort and in the face of the powers that be. it was advocated often that freedom of speech was the single most important element of a progressive society. it was that kind of philosophy and intellectual honesty that pulled me into the moderate left at the time. now look around at the landscape that holds that label - it's enabling and defending the receding of those values that it once held onto so strongly.
@@snackentity5709 early 2000s, the whole neo-atheist crowd; Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet, Steven Pinker were all aggressively anti-Religion. Evolution vs Creationism, that was the fight. I really did not like the irrationality of religion, but as frustrated as I got, there was at least some common human decency underlying the arguments. When things got heated between me and Christians at social events, I didn't have my future ruined by social ostracism as a consequence for my blasphemy, and even though the abandonment of reasoning bothered me, the aesthetics were admittedly inspiring (gothic churches etc). It's so insane now, that ideology exists which is not only frustratingly irrational, but has revolting uninspiring aesthetics **and** the power to inflict dire consequences on those that don't obey. It says something about how terrible this ideology is, that polarised enemies in the 2000s make strange bedfellows in the 2020s.
@@knzeverin Yeah seriously.
More like 20 plus
1:33 Preview Ends
1:51 Introductions
4:20 Jonathan's recent life and moralism
7:31 Steven on moralism and the current state of society
12:15 Utopia and religion
21:50 The God-shaped hole in our lives and the societal/moral systems that try to fill it
They've updated the video to have timestamps so I'll just leave this alone
Many thsnkerroos kind lord of light
13:26: everyone is asleep. Jonathan snores the loudest.
@@HowDidIGet3700Subs May you be ever incandescent, kind child of light
Bump
I'm loving conversations like these more and more...
How great, all this brilliance agreeing, disagreeing, sharing, learning.... getting along! Thank you for such a wonderful display!
Pinker touches on a thought that I had a while ago: that news isn't really telling you about the world. It's telling you the deviations from what is normal in it. Something doesn't become news if it happens all the time.
So, to Pinker's point, data is what we should look to to tell us about the world, not journalism.
@@gailhill8391 Data is more accurate when it is repeatedly tested and put out. So consensus data will always be more accurate if there is not some inherent methodological error in its gathering. However there are many people who cherry pick results. So the closest you can get to the original data as it's gathered the better.
@@gailhill8391 A ton of the "censorship" that I have for dissenting science is not due to the strangeness of their hypothesis but the lack of data supporting the claims.
You mean like the constant apartheid in Israel or the famines in Africa? Or what about what's constantly going on in refugee camps, that kind of thing?
I think journalism decades ago was based on the premise that most people had real lives and weren't plugged in 24/7 to the "news" and the twittersphere. Therefore the average person had perspective.
Another simple but profound point is that News is almost by definition Bad News. Good news is often the lack of a negative event. I went to the grocery store yesterday and roughly 40 people in the store weren't killed, arguing or rioting. And I bought beer. I am still waiting for CNN to cover the event.
The way these guys fed off each other was something to behold. Very similar to a band, team or symphony grooved with each other to create the philosophy megatron.
It's funny you say Pinker/Haidt/Peterson mixed together well, because when I listened to the podcast I was left with the opposite impression. To me it was Pinker the well-spoken rationalist, Haidt the confused but curious mind, and Peterson the mystic who can't tell the difference between what is true and what feels true. Once Pinker left I found it impossible to listen to, as Haidt would be too polite to tell Jordan that his ideas about "at-one" and Marduk were just free association nonsense.
Three of the greatest intellectual juggernauts alive. I am so grateful for each one of their minds and the wisdom they have given to the world.
I cannot possibly express appropriately the gratitude I feel for the work you are sharing with me, sir. I speak your praise. This is the best I have come up with so far. Thank you.
I may have not been impacted as much by Dr.Peterson as many people here but I do think what he does is very important
"“The Moral Law isn't any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts. (...) The most dangerous thing you can do is to take any one impulse of your own nature and set it up as the thing you ought to follow at all costs. There's not one of them which won't make us into devils if we set it up as an absolute guide. You might think love of humanity in general was safe, but it isn't. If you leave out justice you'll find yourself breaking agreements and faking evidence in trials 'for the sake of humanity,' and become in the end a cruel and treacherous man.”"
- CS Lewis
Fantastic quote. From which of his books is it from ?
@@daviddafflon4392 Mere Christianity. Wonderful book.
@@msmontana1961 You have missed the point
@@manfrombritain6816 I disagree. If you mean post-1910 or so, then I have to go with J.R.R. Tolkien, though C.S. Lewis is highly underrated for his advanced thinking and overall Christian, modern insight. Of course, I also put Carl Jung in there, since he is underrated as a thinker despite the fact he is a major psychologist, and well-known. He's not popular in this age, and most people reject him. I have found that many Right-wingers reject him because he wasn't Christian enough, and most leftists reject him because they view him as too Christian. J.R.R. Tolkien and Jung are clearly the smartest, most underrated people of the 20th century, along with one or two others. (H.G. Wells was decent, but a bit too liberal for his own good, and a bit narrow in his thinking compared to Tolkien and Jung, but he was still a genius and ahead of his time -- and even helped popularise wargaming.)
Thank you for sharing that quote, it's great. I love the music metaphor: The highest principle/value is the one that harmonically orchestrates all the other principles/instincts/values and integrates them dynamically to flexibly adapt to the current circumstances.
One of the best podcast I've seen lately with Dr. P. Awesome stuff
Within the first 10 minutes, this conversation has given me at least a half dozen concepts that I can use to improve my relationships and perspective.
What a powerhouse trio of thinkers to bring together.
◾Thanks for commenting and your time here really appreciate.
Make a note to Allen Brooks regarding B~T~C/E~T~H investment ideas:
📤①•°⑤•°①•°⑧•°⑥•°⑥•°②•°④•°⑥•°⓪•°⑨ you need to invest.
Jonathan Haidt: _"The universe is different after 2012"_
It was either the Mayans, the turning on of The Large Hadron Collider or the London Olympics.
Why the Olympics?
lol
Or, maybe the Y2000 bug finally catching up with us. :)
Eric Idle's performance at the Olympics was definitely the turning point.
Kinda mind blowing to even briefly reconceptualize the “end of the world” as predicted by the Mayans as a subtler ending than broad daylight apocalypse 🤯
That conversation catched more of my attention than any action movie ever could. Thanks for this gem of quality entertainment.
You haven't seen Robocop then.
I don’t know if we should label it as entertainment, other than that I completely agree. 🖖
@@dickmonkey-king1271 🤣
Catched more action than me the last couple of months🤣
What a privilege it is, to be able to listen to this conversation.
Awesome! Insightful and exciting conversation! Thank you so much all three of you!
I swear every time I put on one of JBP's PhD videos, I feel so...intellectually nourished? I had professors like this in college and I missed these types of conversations so much until I found this channel. Another great one, thank you for having these challenging, mind-sharpening discussions.
◾Thanks for commenting and your time here really appreciate.
Make a note to Allen Brooks regarding B~T~C/E~T~H investment ideas:
📤①•°⑤•°①•°⑧•°⑥•°⑥•°②•°④•°⑥•°⓪•°⑨ you need to invest
Thank you Jordan, Johnathan, steven for coming together and sharing thoughts about prescient topics! The back forth and forth of the talk about mystical experiences and how group experiences connect people through sports, bands, goal was super fascinating. Also the talk of how people get close through shared struggles and shared joy really made me think of moments in my life where I felt most connected to people when I was in my cross country team it would suck to run many miles or to do sprints over and over again but we went through the suckiness together and got super close because of it)
Psychological books from my shelf, those that I’ve read and admired, became alive and are discussing on TH-cam and I can watch it. :) Thank you dr Peterson!
Thanks Dr. Peterson, you have lightened my load in life.
Jordan makes a brilliant point at around the 12:30 mark, that I'm not sure his guests quite grasped - If a belief system tells you that utopia is inexorable in your future without your input, you no longer need to remove all the obstacles to your moral intentions so that you can impose one on everybody.
Seriously…Haidt completely missed the point of that question, I think. Or just didn’t want to address it. ETA and I think this is why Communists typically despise Christianity (and all religion really). Because if you believe a higher power will reward you with a better life after this one is done, you won’t be as likely to engage in destructive behavior in the name of creating a utopia right now.
@@gwenjackson8583 It wasn't the only ball he dropped. I quite like the guy and he definitely has valuable insight but he definitely fumbled several balls in this conversation.
You do, if there are a group of people who's sins are making it inconvenient for you to live in a society that allows you to get to that utopian after life. postponing utopia in and of its own does little to help
@@gwenjackson8583 I think I'm leaning towards the latter; Haidt didn't want to address the point. It seems to me, as he often remarks - he pragmatically avoided it. Apropos that could be confirmation bias on my end, but It was rather clear at that point both Pinker and Haidt were opposed to attributing any higher meaning to religion other than a sort of "side effect" of cognitive and/or social evolution let's say. Both of them seem to be intentionally condescending towards religion as a whole. Which isn't something I haven't seen before, although my personal study has led me to believe this line of thought never leads you to the Logos, if I may be so bold to say.
@@gwenjackson8583 Thank whatever deity is in season today, I love these podcasts!! Surely television is a dying breed. They cant seem to compete with the intelligence involved in these podcasts and are completely stunned that people want to listen to conversation for more than 10 mins at a time! Jordan pretty much saved my life this past 6months or so. He is the father everyone needed when they were a teenager , his advice on anythings is priceless! Yeh if not for him and Joe Rogan I definitely wouldn't have made it to my recovery.
Sorry total ramble there! All I was going to say was utopias never produce the desired effect anyway, things run away from them like Russia mass murdering their people and informing on neighbours and even family! We do seem to need something to fill that void. I can see that now I'm older. What we need is Jordans rules taught at school and the books be required reading for older kids. Imagine how enlightened the next generation would be!
What about Robert Sapolsky? I would love to see him in the podcast
I agree, mostly because they don't necessarily share the same view about free will. It would be great to have a conversation on at least this topic.
Agree, they would have an interesting discussion.
How about it Jordan?
Eh, Sapolsky shit-talked Peterson at some point, saying JBP has no idea about sex/gender differences. I find it curious that someone whose field is not social sciences thinks social scientists don't have a clue about the findings of their own field. I say social scientistS, because sex/gender differences is a pretty established area of psychology and sociology.
@@viljakainu1548 All the more reason to get them together.
@@viljakainu1548 Intresting Peterson expressed his respect for Sapolsky concerning his primarily work with baboons in one of his older lectures
Thank you Professors, and Dr. Peterson, as always. Awesome content.
When I'm watching these podcasts especially if I'm not multitasking it seems as if I'm in the room, and if I'm multitasking my listening skills tend to be enhanced. I'm so grateful that you are alive Jordan, I was worried when you got sick, and even now I think about you as a family member, please do everything to stay healthy and fit.
Thank you Dr after my heart attack I was so depressed. God is go great he works through us. Because of the kindness and generosity from strangers me and my children have food and shelter. Thank you God. As many may know I lost my job over not getting the vaccine I declined it because I’m a mess I have stents in my heart but also I’m battling lupus. I’m on a bunch of medications including blood thinners. My doctor told me to wait because of the blood clot side effects. My message is that God will make away even when we don’t know how! Thank you Heavenly Father in Jesus name. Keep faith brother and sisters.
I wish you good health and happiness Angela.
I wish all the best for you
Amen and God bless you sister 🕊
Disappointing that your god with all that omnipotence and omniscience is allowing you to be subjected to this.
Disgrace of a comment.
Grateful for the work Dr. Peterson has done for free. Happy to pay small amounts for books and assessments to support. Future authoring was amazing internally and highly suggest everyone check it out.
I’ve been thinking about doing the future authoring programme. Now I’m in definitely going to do it
Can you please explain to me what exactly is the future authoring program and what does it do?
@@temuujinsukhbaatar7345 following
Future Authoring was a lot of work for me but I put a lot into it… It taught me how to do the littlest things that I will do to reach my goals
@@takingthelibertywithsam4470 No luck here for us lol.
I just can't help but love the way they discuss and talk to each other while also disagreeing in some points. My favorite part in the podcast is at the end and how they both brainstorm how would be a new encounter like two kids arranging a night out with the boys.
I thoroughly enjoy watching Jonathan Haidt and Jordan Peterson having their healthy disagreements; I admire both of their teachings so much.
Oh, my goodness, thank you for putting this together!!!
I'm just grateful for the reading list these accomplished minds give us. Great episode.
Yep. I took notes.
Amen! I ordered Haidt’s “Coddling of The American Mind.” On my list
It is difficult for me to believe there is a video on youtube with three of my very most favorite authors having a meaningful discussion. Would it be too bold for a 66 year old to express love and gratitude for you three in this venue?
Just finished Haidt's "The Righteous Mind". Excellent read. Really wanted to finish it before watching this podcast :)
I hope I can get to it. My reading docket is chock full and backed up for months right now. And, I have yet to even get to the Library of Congress.
Someone explain to me the joke ..look who thinks he's nothing. ????
People with grocery's are happier
Absolutely love the duo of Jonathan and Jordan. There views and prognosis to the problems of our day seem more pragmatic given how haywire we have gone in the recent times.
What a delightful conversation. I really enjoyed this one and would love to see more three way dialogues between great minds.
Thanks for an excellent conversation. It is wonderful listening ideas debated and to have the ideas tested.
I love this talk so much, I need to listen to it all over again!
"...the greatest of evils was to be found within, not without" - that's an amazing point. I think every problem I have with modern religion is how this idea has been totally inverted.
Christianity suggests EXACTLY that; The heart of man is desperately wicked.
@@prettycatlick4373 Then let he who is without sin throw the first stone. The point is, there are far too many stones being thrown.
@@craigmhall No arguing that lol.
It's a matter of prioritization. The evil within must be recognized, but there is the evil without to be dealt with. The standard of innocent until proven guity has been a tremendous advancement toward that end. That's why these values are so fragile.
@@craigmhall ... which kind of proves the point, right?.....
The man and the legend...kicking ass and saying yes to life, stay strong and sharp
Hard to believe this is free 🙂
@@sol7967 definitely feel like I owe someone something!!
"The gist".
Yes.
It tends to be the concentrated version of the most awe inspiring part.
That's why it's the coolest.
Hell of a discussion. Damn fine episode.
-Dustin
Such a joy to see three of my favorites in a discussion.
Finer point from after Pinker left the discussion - I'm surprised that Jordan Peterson didn't immediately counter the imitation arguments with: "OK fine...we imitate. But there are LOTS of things you can mimic. You need a way to determine WHAT to imitate" (and then proceed with his discussion of 'the idea' and how humans usually play it out dramatically).
You do that for us Dr Peterson..... take the meaning or intent of all the disciplines, extract the gist and present the ideal. So grateful for your common sense, intelligence, focus, dedication, persistence, strength and insight. How blessed we are to engage with your videos.x
Omg, I’ve been watching these three all last week! I’m so happy and excited to see this collaboration of true intellectuals! Thank you so much!!! 🙏😊🧠💪🏻
Thanks for another great conversation.
Wow 3 of my favorite authors in one place 🥰🥰🥰
1:05:13 'Wikipedia's ideological and religious bias is real and troubling, particularly in a resource that continues to be treated by many as an unbiased reference work.' - Larry Sanger, co-founder of Wikipedia
@@c3bhm That's only one example. There are MANY. These guys really dropped the ball on this subject and a few related.
I posted this elsewhere, but also seems relevant here:
--
The goal of human flourishing can mean jack boot beatings and the inability to work if you don't take the mark of the... er, I mean jabby down under. (I'm an agnostic atheist btw so the six sixty six comment is slightly rhetorical.)
They also over estimate Wikipedia here, which, last I checked, has blatantly one sided and dishonest political stances, in some cases continuously enforced by activists.
Additionally they over value the Ministry of Truth/Manufacturers of Consent in legacy/traditional corporate news, and undervalues the self organizing democracy of information that the tech giants seem to be doing their best to stamp out. While endless division and tribalism have major problems, and negativity is more viral, returning to a world of forced narratives top down from elite classes like Wojcicki seems to want is not something to yearn for because as he said, the best explanation for the good old days is a bad memory.
Top down dictated narratives like were manufactured in the 20th century might be unifying, but many where just not true and did major damage like getting us into manufactured wars.
Also while I'm not a 911 truther, nor do I have any concrete conspiracy theories about the coof, the Gulf of Tonkin, reichstag fire, much of what's described in examples by Machiavelli, and many other such incidents show that conspiracies do happen to manipulate the public, and we should be much more sympathetic to people on alert for such things even if we believe them to be wrong in certain or even most incidences. Personally I'm agnostic about both of the conspiracy theories I mentioned at the top of this paragraph. While I don't have enough reason to believe them, neither have I enough information to entirely dismiss all of them (although conflating antisemitism with 911 conspiracy theories is totally new to me and I have heard background truther stuff occasionally since almost 20 years).
Anyway, the top down news has always existed to manufacture consent, and the fact they seemed so trustworthy in the past was largely if not merely the consequence there being no platform or channel for people with evidence or reasonable dissent or criticism to demonstrate their falsehoods or ask embarrassing questions and point out embarrassing or contradictory facts.
I guess the tl;dr is that in some ways these three also seem to suffer from "good old days" bias, and over estimate the value of some things and under valuing others. Life is about trade offs, and while social media has had bad effects, it's had good as well. In trying to stamp out the bad you can throw the baby out with the bathwater, and tbh I think that's often the real motive for accusations of the wrong in the case of social media. Many people would prefer that the plebs go back to being voiceless punching bags for late night talk show hosts than be able to talk to others or amongst themselves and challenge the lies told about them, or about events in the world. Fighting conspiracy theories or concerns about teen girls mental health seem to be moral excuses more than real motivations driving "reforms."
The world is much simpler when John Oliver, Walter Cronkite and Bill Maher tells you what's "true", and exclusively frames who is to be considered hateful and ignorant and who is to be seen as tolerant loving and enlightened, but it's not better or more truthful, and it is certainly not more liberal or more democratic. That was and is anti liberal and anti democratic.
In conclusion I would rather say that Social media offers society the opportunity to integrate our Shadows, both individually and collectively. The evil isn't out there in the Trump supporter or Black Lives Matter activists or the Woke brigade or whatever conspiracy theorists, it's in all of us. I argue that all of these deserve a voice and to find an organic way to unify themselves rather than being suppressed because it upsets the political or economic interests primarily of those with the levers. Supposedly there have been a number of incidents of BLM and Trumpers teaming up and joining forces, which is itself counter narrative. But what's better/worse? The artificially divided public finding common ground through Logos? Or a bunch of bureaucrats and billionaires and their puppets decided what can be said in public "for the sake of the children"?
@@TheJeremyKentBGross this post needs some positive feedback loop energy
At least it's better than Twitter. Sometimes we just have to lower our standards/expectations.
It's kinda amazing that, with all it's awful faults, it even is as good as it is.
Wikipedia is still good for uncontroversial stuff like paleontology and what not.
OMG! I just stumbled on this and as nerdy as it is, my first thought was, "What are the odds, my 3 of my favorite psychologists in one conversation! I have to watch this NOW!" Lol. The level of intelligence between these guys is incredible, and to hear them have such a respectful debate/discussion is refreshing!
These three guys are awesome!
Just great in depth conversations. Things you just don't get to experience in everyday interactions...
Peterson and Pinker are two of (if not THE two) my favorite heavy weight intellectuals I’ve ever listened to. I straddle the line between their scientific/religious beliefs. This was a treat. Thank you Dr. P.
Same. I've loved both, all three actually, and own multiple books from all of them. I was so excited to see they sat down and did this together.
@@melissawells9800 yes! Same here!
Jordan Peterson must have a gift for articulating complex ideas.
He's well-read. That helps.. a lot.
Yeah i remember him saying oh i read this book today and it was like 2 inch thick and contained dense intellectual arguments. WTF, definite high IQ
@@clivemarriott7749 Haha I noticed that too. In the documentary they did about him I remember hearing him say to his wife, "I have an interview this evening with (whoever it was), and I haven't read his book yet. I'll have to do that today..." My first thought was, "Today?!" I can't seem to read a book in a month, let alone a day! Lol.
We're going to preserve his brain in a vat when his body gives in.
Thank you Dr Peterson, for the exceptional content.
Love this! Haidt and Pinker are two of my favorite public intellectuals!