UPDATE: Please watch the follow up video of this episode, as I initially forgot to cover the Millennium Machine: a proposed doubel engine cab control car that would have led the 21st Century Limited excursion train proposed by Ross Rowland. th-cam.com/video/YWTfQfIeZs4/w-d-xo.html
I learned plenty in this episode! Now, I know the various General Electric locomotives that they tried to offer, but didn't: lower-powered U-boats and Dash-7s, unwanted 6-axle versions of 4-axle locomotives, a new form of Genesis, a _six-axle_ thing called the P47AC (had this been built, it would have been the first six-axle passenger locomotive in the US since the Alaska Railroad's passenger SD70MACs), to say nothing of the various HEP, steam-generator, and Q-cab versions of almost every U-boat and Dash-7 locomotive. Also, now I know that Fairbanks-Morse had a few extra tricks up their sleeves that they never got to use, including a 3,400 horsepower locomotive... in the 50s! Thanks for the video!
Well you definitely have a point, but I do wish more reference material existed for purposes of digital replication for things like train simulators. I've only ever really found like one picture of the inside of the cab, and I never really found any diagrams either.
The GE HST design bears an uncanny resemblance to the Soviet RVR ER200 of 1973 for Moscow-St Petersburg service. A rare instance of US designers borrowing from the Russians rather than the more usual reverse.
This video was absolutely worth the wait! Though, the GE Q cab renderings are going to give me more nightmares than Turkey Tom's degenerates video thumbnails.
If you're conservant enough, you might notice that in the 21:10, i made 2 iterations of the NS horse face design, one of them is a nightmare fuel, even for me, lol Thx for having me helped in the video too!
My bad on the misunderstanding. When you discussed the U30CG for the Santa Fe, (which was built) I figured the U34CH would have also got a mention - it had a much more successful career and pioneered the current use of HEP as we know it.
For an idea of what GE's domestic low hood switcher/transfer units might have looked like, check out the South African 36/000 class. Also, thanks for the video credits, not everyone who uses my material does.
The GEVO Genesis is a very intriguing concept. It’s a pity a successor model to the P42s was never built. They would’ve been cool to see in action instead of the Siemens Chargers.
Thanx for the great video. Down here in New Zealand we still have some old GE locos running. Heavy switchers U10B still going strong., I see one most days of the week. The U26C that arrived from 1973 have see lots of rebuilds and currently sit at 3000 ~ 3300 HP units though they are on borrowed time with the rail operator ordering some European replacements for them. They like their EMD counterparts have been great locomotives. The curse of having a 3'6" narrow gauge system here is we can't just buy standard gauge engines off the shelf from the US.
U18BT line drawings can be found in the (I think) 1974 Locomotive and Car Builder Cyclopedia if anyone is interested... (I have both 1974 and 1980, I think it's in 1974...)
I can actualy answer that. They would look like the regular unit, with a Q-cab and Steam Heat vent (for the steam heat varient which would have been early in the Dash 7 line. Later, once HEP was the standard, they would have the steam Heat vent removed.
@fmnut Someone also made a G gauge model of one of those locomotives in a Union Pacific livery, which briefly appeared on the screen towards the end of the Q cab train simulator segment.
@Pensyfan19 No, that UP you're referring to is an HXN5, which is a hood unit resembling a GEVO with a Q cab. The NJ2 has the same style cab but with a full width body.
Well done, I didn’t know that GE had proposed so many different models. There has been talk that FM proposed a 2000HP roadswitcher to the Pennsy. It would have had a low nose, with B-B wheel arrangement. I think FM was going to use PRR Erie builts as trade ins. Instead the Pennsy went with U25Bs. As far as I know, no drawings have been discovered for this loco.
2:21 this photo of Philippine National Railways (PNR) Unit No. 5008 (or we call it here, Diesel Electric Locomotive "DEL" 5008) is the modern U6B model, back in the 60s when PNR is still called MRR (Manila Railroad Company), they ordered 10 U6Bs from GE and classified it has 2nd 3000s (1st 3000s was a 52-ton GE switcher and renumbered it to 4000) but its appearance looks like a U5B, its front door is not in the center and it has no radiator grills on the side.
The P47AC is also likely longer than the HSP-46, as it has T4 exhaust cooling. In fact, it’s the only T4 passenger locomotive concept that meets emissions without DEF. That added length, plus the need for 125MPH stability was why they likely went for 6 axles. There is a report on the MNRR dual-mode bid that shines a bit more light on the design. For one, it was a joint GE/Wabtec (MPI) bid, so the resemblance to the HSP-46 isn’t coincidental. For another, the dual-mode version was estimated to weigh about 163 tons, but because of its 6 axles, was actually judged to be the most stable design - for comparison, the Charger weighs 146 tons but spreads that across only 4 axles. Considering the lack of DEF requirement, apparent good stability, and existing working relationship with GE, one wonders why Amtrak chose Siemens instead. Oh well. Wish I could actually link stuff in the comments section, but if you Google “Standardized Technical Specification PRIIA Dual Mode”, it’s in Appendix A-4.
That all makes sense. I wasn't aware about the Metro North report, nor that they were initially interested in this model, but it ultimately makes sense that they went with the lighter engine, as Metro North is especially concerned about heavier weights on the Park Avenue viaduct.
@@Pensyfan19You’d think so, but the appendix states the SC-42DM’s 146 ton weight actually exceeds MNRR’s target weight of 143 tons for a 4-axle engine. Their weight target for a 6-axle was 163 tons, so GE actually had actually met the goal. Evidently that target’s not a hard limit since they picked the Charger anyways, but honestly the more you read it, the more questionable it looks. EMD’s F125 dual-mode concept was also lighter, and both American builders’ offerings had more power plus 125MPH capability. The appendix’s entire premise is that they needed to lower top speed from 125MPH to 110MPH to reduce weight. But when NGEC also acknowledges that only the SC-42DM was overweight at 125MPH, it almost looks like they deliberately manipulated their requirements to ensure Siemens won.
@24.23 While some FMs were sold to Mexico second hand, most of CHPs fleet were sold new, as well as the new pair to Bosques de Chihuahua. Indeed, the last new FM built was CHP 604. Not all secondhand as you claim.
I wish Amtrak did give GE a shot long enough for a demo P47AC to be tested on their railroads and other railroads alike. It looks like they'd be at home on the Auto Train and some of the long distance services and it would have given at least some competition for Siemens. I'm guessing the reliability issues for MBTA (even though that was still technically a joint venture) weren't enough to convince Amtrak to keep that option on the table.
4:06 While 4 axle locomotives may be lighter in overall weight than their 6 axle counterparts, their axle loads are heavier. I would think the 4 axle variations were cataloged for their tractive effort curves (better hi speed performance) rather than lighter overall weight. Indeed, since most of the export market countries didn't have high speed lines and had plentiful axle load restrictions, it's no surprise the 4 axle variations produced no sales.
The Q cabs on other GE models are... *something* and *q̴̩̥͖̞̯̫͕̜̩̈́̂̐͌̏u̶͇͖̻̯̹̫͗͑͐̉̈̐i̷̠̭̺̱͙̗̱͔̲̺͘ṟ̶̗̪̩̳́̂̒́̑́͒̀͑͝͝͝k̶̨̰͖̫̙̯͌́̌y̵̨̢̙̼̝̠̿̄͒̋̉̈́͘* Thank you Pensyfan for scaring me.
I've decided to save those classes for the ALCO episode of Unbuilt, since Bombardier bought out Montreal Locomotive Works, which was a Canadian extension of ALCO.
Indonesia's GE U18Cs ( or CC 201s ) which are nearing 50 years of service life, is set to be retired berween 2027 - 2029. Recently KAI and Wabtec signed a deal to have more spares for the GE U-Boats and their modernized counterparts ( U18Cs, U20Cs, C18MMis, C20EMP )
@@anf_8310_ab They were offered that a few years ago but got rejected for being way too costly.. there are only 7 modernized GE U18Cs, that being the C18MMis
@@anf_8310_ab there are around 37 modernized U boats, that being the C18MMi, and C20EMP. C18MMis being modernized CC 201s, as for the latter, they're fresh GE-Indonesia collab
I really wanted to watch this video, but was too distracted by the muddy audio to continue. I cannot specify if the cause of the lack of clarity is the recording setup, the person speaking, or both.
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.15 (2/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qbHbshrA1f0/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE: Please watch the follow up video of this episode, as I initially forgot to cover the Millennium Machine: a proposed doubel engine cab control car that would have led the 21st Century Limited excursion train proposed by Ross Rowland.
th-cam.com/video/YWTfQfIeZs4/w-d-xo.html
I learned plenty in this episode! Now, I know the various General Electric locomotives that they tried to offer, but didn't: lower-powered U-boats and Dash-7s, unwanted 6-axle versions of 4-axle locomotives, a new form of Genesis, a _six-axle_ thing called the P47AC (had this been built, it would have been the first six-axle passenger locomotive in the US since the Alaska Railroad's passenger SD70MACs), to say nothing of the various HEP, steam-generator, and Q-cab versions of almost every U-boat and Dash-7 locomotive.
Also, now I know that Fairbanks-Morse had a few extra tricks up their sleeves that they never got to use, including a 3,400 horsepower locomotive... in the 50s!
Thanks for the video!
everyone should be happy that the Q cab didn't become mainstream
yeah when I seen the what could of been, I got scared
Don’t disrespect the Qube. Qube is god Qube is life
Yeah, that is nightmare fuel
I'm not
Well you definitely have a point, but I do wish more reference material existed for purposes of digital replication for things like train simulators. I've only ever really found like one picture of the inside of the cab, and I never really found any diagrams either.
The GE HST design bears an uncanny resemblance to the Soviet RVR ER200 of 1973 for Moscow-St Petersburg service. A rare instance of US designers borrowing from the Russians rather than the more usual reverse.
This video was absolutely worth the wait!
Though, the GE Q cab renderings are going to give me more nightmares than Turkey Tom's degenerates video thumbnails.
If you're conservant enough, you might notice that in the 21:10, i made 2 iterations of the NS horse face design, one of them is a nightmare fuel, even for me, lol
Thx for having me helped in the video too!
One GE locomotive overlooked - the U34CH which was in commuter service in NJ from the early 70s up to 1994.
This video covers locomotive classes that were proposed, but not built, so therefore the U34CH does not fit in this category.
My bad on the misunderstanding. When you discussed the U30CG for the Santa Fe, (which was built) I figured the U34CH would have also got a mention - it had a much more successful career and pioneered the current use of HEP as we know it.
Another excellent and well researched piece of work.
For an idea of what GE's domestic low hood switcher/transfer units might have looked like, check out the South African 36/000 class.
Also, thanks for the video credits, not everyone who uses my material does.
The GEVO Genesis is a very intriguing concept. It’s a pity a successor model to the P42s was never built. They would’ve been cool to see in action instead of the Siemens Chargers.
Thanx for the great video. Down here in New Zealand we still have some old GE locos running. Heavy switchers U10B still going strong., I see one most days of the week. The U26C that arrived from 1973 have see lots of rebuilds and currently sit at 3000 ~ 3300 HP units though they are on borrowed time with the rail operator ordering some European replacements for them. They like their EMD counterparts have been great locomotives. The curse of having a 3'6" narrow gauge system here is we can't just buy standard gauge engines off the shelf from the US.
U18BT line drawings can be found in the (I think) 1974 Locomotive and Car Builder Cyclopedia if anyone is interested...
(I have both 1974 and 1980, I think it's in 1974...)
The Q cab’s are goofy af and flat out cursed. Kinda curious to see what a passenger variant would have looked like.
Either identical to the existing Q cab, or with a Q cab meshed with the U30CG exterior cowl, thus making a true brick of an engine.
I can actualy answer that. They would look like the regular unit, with a Q-cab and Steam Heat vent (for the steam heat varient which would have been early in the Dash 7 line. Later, once HEP was the standard, they would have the steam Heat vent removed.
@julianhudson7811 check out China Railways NJ2 class built for the Tibet line. Exactly what a Q cab would look like mated to a full width carbody.
@fmnut Someone also made a G gauge model of one of those locomotives in a Union Pacific livery, which briefly appeared on the screen towards the end of the Q cab train simulator segment.
@Pensyfan19 No, that UP you're referring to is an HXN5, which is a hood unit resembling a GEVO with a Q cab. The NJ2 has the same style cab but with a full width body.
Well done, I didn’t know that GE had proposed so many different models. There has been talk that FM proposed a 2000HP roadswitcher to the Pennsy. It would have had a low nose, with B-B wheel arrangement. I think FM was going to use PRR Erie builts as trade ins. Instead the Pennsy went with U25Bs. As far as I know, no drawings have been discovered for this loco.
2:21
this photo of Philippine National Railways (PNR) Unit No. 5008 (or we call it here, Diesel Electric Locomotive "DEL" 5008) is the modern U6B model, back in the 60s when PNR is still called MRR (Manila Railroad Company), they ordered 10 U6Bs from GE and classified it has 2nd 3000s (1st 3000s was a 52-ton GE switcher and renumbered it to 4000) but its appearance looks like a U5B, its front door is not in the center and it has no radiator grills on the side.
The P47AC is also likely longer than the HSP-46, as it has T4 exhaust cooling. In fact, it’s the only T4 passenger locomotive concept that meets emissions without DEF. That added length, plus the need for 125MPH stability was why they likely went for 6 axles.
There is a report on the MNRR dual-mode bid that shines a bit more light on the design. For one, it was a joint GE/Wabtec (MPI) bid, so the resemblance to the HSP-46 isn’t coincidental. For another, the dual-mode version was estimated to weigh about 163 tons, but because of its 6 axles, was actually judged to be the most stable design - for comparison, the Charger weighs 146 tons but spreads that across only 4 axles.
Considering the lack of DEF requirement, apparent good stability, and existing working relationship with GE, one wonders why Amtrak chose Siemens instead. Oh well.
Wish I could actually link stuff in the comments section, but if you Google “Standardized Technical Specification PRIIA Dual Mode”, it’s in Appendix A-4.
That all makes sense. I wasn't aware about the Metro North report, nor that they were initially interested in this model, but it ultimately makes sense that they went with the lighter engine, as Metro North is especially concerned about heavier weights on the Park Avenue viaduct.
@@Pensyfan19You’d think so, but the appendix states the SC-42DM’s 146 ton weight actually exceeds MNRR’s target weight of 143 tons for a 4-axle engine. Their weight target for a 6-axle was 163 tons, so GE actually had actually met the goal. Evidently that target’s not a hard limit since they picked the Charger anyways, but honestly the more you read it, the more questionable it looks. EMD’s F125 dual-mode concept was also lighter, and both American builders’ offerings had more power plus 125MPH capability.
The appendix’s entire premise is that they needed to lower top speed from 125MPH to 110MPH to reduce weight. But when NGEC also acknowledges that only the SC-42DM was overweight at 125MPH, it almost looks like they deliberately manipulated their requirements to ensure Siemens won.
The P44AC had the potential to be the GOAT of passenger engines, just like the gevo as u mentionen
@24.23 While some FMs were sold to Mexico second hand, most of CHPs fleet were sold new, as well as the new pair to Bosques de Chihuahua. Indeed, the last new FM built was CHP 604. Not all secondhand as you claim.
Good to know, thank you for the correction.
I wish Amtrak did give GE a shot long enough for a demo P47AC to be tested on their railroads and other railroads alike. It looks like they'd be at home on the Auto Train and some of the long distance services and it would have given at least some competition for Siemens. I'm guessing the reliability issues for MBTA (even though that was still technically a joint venture) weren't enough to convince Amtrak to keep that option on the table.
4:06 While 4 axle locomotives may be lighter in overall weight than their 6 axle counterparts, their axle loads are heavier. I would think the 4 axle variations were cataloged for their tractive effort curves (better hi speed performance) rather than lighter overall weight. Indeed, since most of the export market countries didn't have high speed lines and had plentiful axle load restrictions, it's no surprise the 4 axle variations produced no sales.
The Fairbanks Morse 38D 8 1/8 which they used in their locomotives is still listed in their catalogue for marine engines.
The Q cabs on other GE models are...
*something* and *q̴̩̥͖̞̯̫͕̜̩̈́̂̐͌̏u̶͇͖̻̯̹̫͗͑͐̉̈̐i̷̠̭̺̱͙̗̱͔̲̺͘ṟ̶̗̪̩̳́̂̒́̑́͒̀͑͝͝͝k̶̨̰͖̫̙̯͌́̌y̵̨̢̙̼̝̠̿̄͒̋̉̈́͘*
Thank you Pensyfan for scaring me.
I know of 3 diesels that Bombardier had planned but never got past the drawing stage
I've decided to save those classes for the ALCO episode of Unbuilt, since Bombardier bought out Montreal Locomotive Works, which was a Canadian extension of ALCO.
The C636P would have been awesome! Strong and good looking!
I BELIEVE IN Q CAB SUPREMECY
I LIKE TRAINS!
A GEVO Genesis would have been far better than a Charger, but I’m actually getting used to seeing Chargers.
As your this episode-s implies their unbuilt
when you combine the words, you get "Gevisis"
Awesome series. Please, sir, may I have some more?
There's also the EMD episode of Unbuilt uploaded just over a year ago.
@@Pensyfan19 Seen it loved it. Need more.
Indonesia's GE U18Cs ( or CC 201s ) which are nearing 50 years of service life, is set to be retired berween 2027 - 2029.
Recently KAI and Wabtec signed a deal to have more spares for the GE U-Boats and their modernized counterparts ( U18Cs, U20Cs, C18MMis, C20EMP )
I'm still a little disappointed that they won't modernize their U-Boats
@@anf_8310_ab They were offered that a few years ago but got rejected for being way too costly.. there are only 7 modernized GE U18Cs, that being the C18MMis
@@anf_8310_ab there are around 37 modernized U boats, that being the C18MMi, and C20EMP.
C18MMis being modernized CC 201s, as for the latter, they're fresh GE-Indonesia collab
@@muhammadfadhiil5992 i wouldn't count the C20EMP as modernized U-Boats since they were built as is, not a rebuilt from existing U18s or U20s
@@anf_8310_ab would the C20EMPs count as C-Boats tho, i've always wondered that.
since i heard they're related with the CM20EMPs
Yo, you missed ALCo …
ALCO will be getting an episode of its own sometime in the future.
I like the BQ23-7 because it's a fun novelty and it way to overhated but for everything moving forward is too much
"Great performance of the charger" yeah uh are we seeing the same chargers
Still see a lot of P42 on trains there days
the GE high speed train should have been a thing and i actually really like the q cab and think it would've been dope the see it become mainstream
As goofy as the Q-cab's are, I wouldn't mind seeing them on cowl units at all.
4:25 is CC201 LOCOMOTIVE
SO. MANY. LOST. VARIANTS!!!! AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
I loved the ugly ducking Q cab, that is until I saw it in this video on everything. Im glad I got to see the BQ23-7s but lets leave it at that lol
Some one please make a Q style cab for ho scale ge locomotives
19:30 Hall of the Mountain King moment
Don’t disrespect the Qube. Qube is god Qube is life.
I really wanted to watch this video, but was too distracted by the muddy audio to continue. I cannot specify if the cause of the lack of clarity is the recording setup, the person speaking, or both.
Closed captions are available on the bottom right hand side of the screen in order to better understand the words that are spoken.
C60-8E...
En Argentina Hubo GE U13 C con motores Cooper Bessemer
So FM basically ended up on the same road as Lockheed
You’re right! I can see the parallels between the two manufacturers!
19:10 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
21:45 WHERE CAN I FIND THE DRAWING
24:44 BOCO!!!!
@Pensyfan19 freakin read my mind lol
great video
8:40GE 7FDL 8
21:45 hey look my edit of a es44acq
21:42 the horror