If we’re gonna be making numbers comparisons like this, best get a better understanding of what those numbers mean in real life. Yes, the DMIR engines have more rated tractive effort than the Big Boys do, but the difference is minimal (140k lbs vs 135 k lbs). That means the maximum tonnage both locomotives could start and pull on the same gradients was also quite similar. Indeed, a DMIR M-3/4 would be rated for ~2,300 tons on a 2.2% hill while a UP 4000-class would be rated for ~2,200 tons, a difference of only 100 tons or so, the equivalent of about 4 unloaded cars from that era of railroading. Where the Big Boys outshine the DMIR Yellowstones is in their general purpose design. The Yellowstones had smaller drivers (63 inches vs 68 inches) and thus had a lower top speed and achieved maximum drawbar horsepower at a lower speed as well (both were rated for about 6,000 hp). The Big Boys could take the same tonnage that the DMIR engines could and accelerate that tonnage to a higher speed. In short, the UP Big Boys could show up on the DMIR and perform the same work that the Yellowstones were doing without much additional difficulty, but the reverse cannot be said about the DMIR engines. Yes, the Yellowstones would have handled Wasatch grade and Sherman Hill as well as the Big Boys, but would have fallen flat on the Wyoming plateau, territory where the Big Boys could take the same 4000-5000 ton trains they dragged up the hill and accelerate them up to 55-60 mph.
Well, taking into consideration fanbois being fanbois, Ive heard the argument made that the reason for the lower tonnage rating on the Big Boys was becuase UP wanted to maintain higher speeds. That it in fact could haul well over 2300 tons but it would greatly reduce it's it's speed in doing so. 2200 tons is about where the speed ration started dropping off drastically for the Big Boys as tonnage increased, where as the smaller driver and slower Yellowstones wouldn't even notice the difference, since they weren't going fast anyway. Most of the late steam era large steam engines we still dont today what they could really pull in total. For most railroads, their on the books ratings had as much to do with minimal viable speed the railroad wanted to maintain as anything else. Some other large but slow draggers, like N&W and C&O 2-8-8-2's were also considered to theoretically be able to outpull a Big Boy, but the Big Boy could do it faster.
It seems like you really really want the Big Boy to continue to hold the mantle of the "biggest" engine, but it only outweighs on weight and on top speed, but not on tractive effort or gradeability. So you're right and you're wrong. As you yourself wrote, "making numbers comparisons".....
Except for the fact that the Union Pacific limited Big Boy to a maximum of 55 mph in actual service, a speed the DM&IR Yellowstone could also run at all day....
I maintain that Yellowstone should win the strength competition but Big Boy will win the speed race hands down. Big Boy sacrificed some power for raw speed which was necessary for the running it would do.
@@PennsyPappasyou also have to remember that Big Boys route was for the most part pretty flat. While the yellowstones were constantly marching up and down hills and mountains.
@@HMSHOOD1920 Which I do as a matter of fact, the UP and Santa Fe tried Y3b engines from the N&W and that didnt work out so well. The UP needed speed to get perishable goods across the western U.S. in a timely matter over flat track. Ya really don't need raw power for that vs going through the mountains. Plus Yellowstones had a very short distance to travel in comparison and The tonnage in the Iron range moves down hill and empties go up hill. One of the big advantages was that Yellowstone could go the full distance without stopping for water unlike the smaller engines.
@@HMSHOOD1920you do realize the big boys were specifically designed to move trains over the continental divide without needing helpers while being able to run with it on the flat lands The ruling grades were from 0.82% to 1.14% depending on route
It’s important to note that the Yellowstones and Big Boys were built for two different purposes. The Big Boys were built more for fast freights and not so much for heavy drags because of their geographic route availability. The Yellowstones were built for slow heavy drags. They worked in more densely populated areas where speed wasn’t as key. The Big Boys meanwhile mainly worked in sparsely populated areas, mainly southern Wyoming, part of Colorado, and even Utah, where speed was more key, not to mention they were deep in America’s interior while the Yellowstones were closer to the shore. Also, the DM&R Yellowstones weren’t the only Yellowstones that could output a Big Boy, the NP’s Z-5’s were the only other ones that could. The Big Boys are like the Western Pacific challengers; dessert articulateds. These mallets that could outperform the Big Boys, Yellowstones, Etc, had a different purpose in mind, and different geographic terrain.
This is so true. It's one reason that I think the Alleghenys were some of the best locomotives that got completely misused. They wre built for fast mixed traffic and instead got put on long mountain coal drags.
That is not entirely true of the 2-8-8-4 design. The B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4s were often used on express mail trains and fast general merchandise freights. At 60 mph, they put out more power than a pair of double headed 4-8-2 Mountain locomotives.
@markantony3875 yes but in general this is the case. And also there's a variety of other factors that go into designing a steamer for speed one of the most important being wheel size. Look at a N&W Y6 versus big boy. Big boy has massive wheels compared to a yy
I can imagine, I mean its interesting how over the years steam locomotives went from small designs that where only just bigger than your average man to great hulking beasts that are the size of a couple small houses.
Minnesota Railfan here, it is a personal gripe of mine that the DMIR Yellowstone Locomotives are overshadowed as much as they are by the Big Boys. They are incredible feats of engineering. You can see one "run" at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum in Duluth, MN. It doesnt actually run, but the wheels do spin. The average speed of these guys were 20mph. They could go 45, but they never did. The rails around Northern Minnesota are too tight, too steep and too treacherous to go fast. Thats one of the reasons they went big. If you have to have a train doing 20 mph, its more efficient if its moving 4 trains worth of cargo.
@@creamedcrop5076 Well, hey there bud. You can mark off another fellow Minnesota railfan. I don't post hardly ever, but I enjoy railroads, as I come from a railroad family, specifically the Soo Line.
@@ThatMNguy2116 Love the Soo line! I wish they never replaced their old logo. Got to see some real pretty Soo line steam and diesel locomotives up in Duluth
I worked on the DM&IR from 1974 to 1989…out of PROCTOR and TWO HARBORS…..I never heard anybody….brakemen-conductors-switchman-engineers-or firemen…..call these engines “Yellowstones,”- in THEIR common everyday vernacular, these engines were referred to as “MALLETS” -- all these old-timers are now retired and gone….but if there had ever been a contest of strength between these two powerhouse locomotives……it would have been spectacular….and they wouldn’t have missed it……I witnessed quite a gathering of retired rails and rail fans on the day a switch-engine delivered (shoved) a mallet into the RAILROAD MUSEUM in DULUTH, MINNESOTA…..for the first time ever…..it was almost too big to get through the doors of the building…..they had to scramble a little bit…..but they got it through, anyway-and that was a good day for everybody…..
These were the first of the true "super power" locomotives I ever saw when my mom and dad first took me on vacation to Duluth, Minnesota in 2011. In Proctor I first got my glimpse of heavy haul when I saw one of the M3 Yellowstones that're still around and my god are they fierce machines! That same year was also when the old Duluth Missabe & Iron Range Railroad got bought out by the Canadian National Railroad or whatever line it's apart of now. From the mines to the harbor to have the ore loaded onto freighters such as the Edmund Fitzgerald and the Arthur M. Anderson to go to Pittsburgh and other great cities on the Eastern Sea Board to power the metal making industry.
Thank you for featuring our locomotive! The Lake Superior Railroad Museum thanks you! The LSRM recently made a video on these engines too, and I was the star! Yellowstones likely won't be coming back, and the LSRM certainly won't be restoring ours. If we have a huge rich person to buy out one of the 3 engines, then CN might run it, as CN owns the DM&IR.
Yes I don’t think CN would want a massive one million pound steam locomotive running on their line… oh well, they look just fine on display! I’m just glad any of them were preserved at all!
Three of them are left in preservation and all in Minnesota in the area they worked. M3 Class #225 in Proctor, MN in a public park next to the DM&IR’s yard in Proctor; M3 #227 in Duluth, MN; and M4 Class #229 in Two Harbors, MN. Though #229 is actually the fourth DMIR Yellowstone to be put on display there. Number 222 was first in 1960 until it was called back to service for fan trips, #236 followed #222 on display later that same year, until it was brought back to thaw iron ore during that winter, #221 replaced #236 until 1967 when it deteriorated so badly the DMIR decided to scrap it, with #229 (with the tender from #222 fittingly enough) replacing the 221.
Seen both Big Boy and Yellowstone up close, both are awe inspiring machines. No need to claim one is superior to another, both were designed for different purpose and geography, they served their purpose really well. It is like arguing which is the better cat, Tiger or the Lion
Not stated, but the reason why the DM&IR didn't use the Yellowstones in the winter was that the ore ships were iced in and couldn't deliver the ore to the rail head.
The ore boats(not ships) didn't deliver ore to the railhead, the railroad hauled ore to the docks in Duluth, Superior, and other ports to be loaded onto the ore boats, which hauled the ore to Indiana, Ohio, and other steel mill locations.
@@JustMe-md2gp Thanks, that makes sense. Same idea though, the trains couldn't run ore to the rail head in the winter because there was no ship there to pick it up as they were frozen in.
The B&O also had Yellowstones the EM1s, They were built during World War II to help the war effort by Baldwin in 1944 and were all retired by the late 50s
Extremely interesting video, thank you very much, and Many Thanks for including Metric equivalents for the rest of the world! That was much appreciated.
I'm glad that there are Americans and companies That have kept these locomotive relics! And have kept them in a state or condition to where someday they can be restored and brought back to life! The american experience in the world of live steam and iron and steel steam locomotives!
There is always debate as to what locomotive is biggest, strongest, and so on. One locomotive, often overlooked was the Virginia's 2-10-10-2's They too were monster locomotives. I may be wrong, but I believe that the 2-10-10-2's still hold the record for tonnage haul by a single locomotive. They had very small drivers, allowing for huge tractive effort, but were very slow. It was said that the engineer could get the engine running at full speed, climb out of the cab, run to the front, climb back on the engine and control the thing from the front, by an auxiliary throttle. There is a book about the Virginian (I can't remember the author), where they tell the story of the 2-10-10-2"s. Nice video. The DM&IR 2-8-8-4's are also often overlooked too, mostly because of Big Boy's. ;-)
Another interesting one that worked on the DM&IR were the 0-10-2 Union types built originally for the Union Railroad in Western Pennsylvania. They were called the largest steam switchers ever built.
Great video, i "subscribed." Belatedly remembered something about a German super-steam locomotive we took custody of as a war prize, brought over here, and eventually scrapped. Yes, I'm kicking myself for not having the article.😧
Summers 1945 and 1946 I rode the New York Central Pacemaker from New York to Chicago, then the Chicago Northwestern-Union Pacific Overland Limited to Pocatello, Idaho and a feeder train Pocatello-Ashton ID to work for the summer at the J Bar Y Ranch just west of the Teton Range. Most exciting thing I'd ever done in my life. My 2 year old Appaloosa colt was named Apache and I so fell in love with him that I asked ranch owner Jack Young if I could buy him and take him home. Mr. Young replied, Seth you can't take him home because he's acclimated to our altitudes here around four thousand feet above sea level. Down there on the ocean in New York he would not survive.
I actually remember when Big Boy 4014 met DMIR 227 (Sorta). During the Big Boy's race across the Midwest, it would stop at the Lake Superior railroad museum for their festival of steam event. While DMIR 227 and 4014 never interacted, they were in the same location for 2 days. I was fortunate to attend this event, and I have even seen all 3 remaining Yellowstone locomotives. 227 is at the Lake Superior railroad museum. 229 is at the Two Harbors Depot. And 225 is next to a high school in Proctor, Minnesota.
The Yellowstone’s are by far my favorite class of steam locomotive of all time Not only because of how strong they were But because their crazy looking exterior smoke box in my opinion gave them a sort of rough fire breathing dragon like appearance versus the big boys who’s smoke box was all interior. Their smoke box design was the coolest
The only reason why people say "Big boy is the biggest" is because the big boy is the only locomotive class sporting the 4-8-8-4 wheel arrangement. It can be debated on if the wheel arrangement makes a locomotive "the biggest"
There were more than a few steam locomotives more powerful than a Big Boy or a C&O Allegheny or the Erie triplex-which never achieved its calculated tractive effort due to its inability to make adequate steam. One little-discussed fact in the power debate is the preponderance of Baldwin products over American or Lima models. Let us not forget steamers built in railroad shops because in both cases these shops built the most powerful locomotives of all. Of course I’m talking about the Norfolk and Western’s Y model and the Great Northern’s R-2, rated at over 155,000 lbs before it was bushed down to a mere 149,000 pounds to reduce slippage. Western Pacific and the Rio Grande also owned articulated steamers more powerful than Big Boy. If it had burned anything other than cheap powder with the lowest BTUs, the Northern Pacific Z-5 would have quite literally crushed all competition. One railroad that had developed and built an ideal articulated Mallet that would have bested anything on rails was the Pennsylvania, which decided to go with rigid-frame locomotives over the incredibly powerful articulated sample they built. So Big Boy may be the King today, but if one of the surviving Missabe M’s were rebuilt and run it would become quickly apparent that Big Boy is not so big.
One is on display in Duluth, one is in Two Harbors and the other is in Proctor with a caboose hooked up to it. I have been fortunate to have seen all three.
B&O wanted diesels in the early 1940s but were prohibited from buying them by the War Production Board. So, they went to Baldwin and bought 30 EM-1 class Yellowstones, 7600-7629. They were smaller than the DM&IR engines account the tight clearances on the B&O but were still the largest engines on the roster. All were out of service by 1960 and none survived the scrapper.
The DM&IR "Yellowstones" and the Union Pacific "big boys" are both among two of my personal favorite top 10 articulated steam locomotive classes with both locomotives having different specified task uses. The UP "big boys" were designed for hauling fast freight trains across the western deserts of Wyoming and Utah, while the DM&IR "Yellowstones" were designed for hauling slow iron ore trains while moving at lower speeds. Both the "big boys" and the "Yellowstones" were great performing locomotives as both locomotive types are somewhat comparable, the DM&IR "Yellowstones" are interesting to me because they operated in northern Minnesota hauling heavy iron ore trains that can exceed a length of 150+ ore cars. I am pleased to see that there are 3 DM&IR 2-8-8-4 "Yellowstone" locomotives that were preserved and still exist today; this includes the locomotives #225,#227 and #229 which are all on display throughout the state of Minnesota.
This is an irrelevant comparison. The Big Boy was designed to haul high speed freight trains in Utah and Wyoming. The DMRI locomotive was built to move heavy ore trains at modest speeds. Two locomotives designed for vastly different tasks.
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned this: wasn’t the Yellowstone also the base engine for the Southern Pacific Railroad’s famous Cab Forward locomotive? As I recall, the Cab Forward was a Yellowstone engine that was turned around front-to-back so that the cab was in front of the locomotive, with the tender at the rear and converted to burning oil instead of coal (since coal couldn’t be transported to the firebox at the front of the locomotive). The reversal of the engine front-to-back made it a 4-8-8-2 instead of a 2-8-8-4.
Arguably one of the most important steam engines of the second world war given their immense contribution to getting that iron ore to Lake Superior so it could be shipped off to the steel mills to make all sorts of war machines and other weapons.
My buddies and I would hop these monsters for a ride up the hill out of West Duluth , in the 50 s. Never forget the power. The one in Proctor is awsome.
Just for clarification: Yellowstone's were never used on Proctor Hill. The DM&IR used older "Hill Mallets"(2-8-8-2), Texas types, Santa Fe types and Union types on Proctor Hill to/from the ore docks in West End to Proctor.
@@Caje-zf8md This is interesting. I will need to research this. I was going to search for old photos of Yellowstones, (M4 Mallets) on the docks. Looks like I would have been searching a long time.....
Hyce pointed out that Big Boy was never the biggest or the most powerful but i would say that Big Boy was probably the fastest and an all around best jack of all trades articulated engine. Btw Duluth is pronounced as Duh-looth. Instead of Duh-luth. They DMIR needed permission from the railroad to buy these because of resources but the Iron range was deemed necessary for the war effirt so it was easily granted. The one in the Lake Superior Museum has its drivers spun by an electric motor with an audio history on the engines. Plus it was basically restored before being put undercover so it would be the one to get going again if that ever happened.
Big Boy wasn't as fast as the Challengers, which saw some use on passenger trains. Big Boy only has 5000lb less tractive effort than the Yellowstones despite the much larger drivers so it probably was a more powerful design.
@@sailormatlac9114 Maybe but I've only ever heard it pronounced as Duh looth so that is effectively the correct pronunciation. It's kind of like the M1 Garand rifle is technically being said wrong. Most people say it like Ga- Rand when the creator name was pronounced G - errand. Technically being said wrong but the rifle is still referred to it the first way so that's how it is. Sorry for long response but figured I needed an example.
@@davidfuller581 I kind of wondered which one had more speed but kind of just assumed Challenger being the smaller of the two would've been a bit faster. The power difference is a bit close on paper though I do wonder what their numbers would be using modern ways of calculating tractive effort. I know the Big Boy is rated less today but the UP then it's original rating but I don't remember the exact number.
The Northern Pacific was the railroad that first commissioned the Yellowstone in 1928, named because they were running on the Yellowstone division from Glendive MT to Mandan ND, the grade is very heavy between Glendive and Fryburg, the heaviest is Beaver Hill
@@Arkay315 Wikipedia and several books publishing such information. Big Boy's HP is around 6,600 whereas the Allegheny was a bit over 7, 600HP. The Pennsy Q2 actually had more HP than the Allegheny (7, 800HP) also more than the Big Boy or Yellowstone.
N&W's Y6B's were even more powerful than either the Big Boy or the Yellowstone's of DM&IR. The Y6B had a tractive effort of 166,000 lbf and a top speed of 50 mph. Those were home built in the East End shops in Roanoke, Va and only 1 survives today in St. louis
I think an honorable mention should go to the Soviet P38 Articulated Locomotive, which featured the same 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone Wheel Arrangement, and had a unique Semi-Streamlined Casing.
It would be interesting if they restored a Yellowstone to full running condition and put it up to the test with the Big boy. Pull a load on both. Either way it would be great to see anything steam-powered restored to running condition. I love to see good old things coming back to life.
I'm just gonna leave this here th-cam.com/video/eo69o-J8abY/w-d-xo.html Okay, so I can't stay quiet if this is going to be the video for this week. The DM&IR are probably the most loved steam engines in the State of Minnesota after Milwaukee Road S-3 No. 261 and I am a fan of them myself as I've visited the Lake Superior Railroad Museum a few times. The fact that all three are preserved at home where they worked is probably something to brag about. Thank you for covering these Missabe Monsters. It gives the Minnesotans and the iron ore railfans alike something to unite over and show the world what was so special about the Minnesota Iron Range. Anyone who is not from Minnesota, and especially out of the country, be amazed!
If a person dead-lifts ten pounds more than Hafthor Bjornsson, does that make HB weak shit? No. Having not quite 5000 lbs more TE than the Big Boy doesn’t make the Big Boy weak shit, either.
the correct metric for a locomotive is the boiler HP. they could (and did) stuff boosters under the tender to raise peak tractive effort and with it the largest load the locomotive could start. They sized the drivers for the target operating speed, and the grate area and firebox volume for the quality of the coal or for oil burning, but the boiler surface area determined how many lb of dry steam per hour were produced which fixed the size of the cylinders to expand the steam to extract work from the stuff.
You should take a look at the Alleghany locomotive too.. they could out pull a Big Boy easily, there were slower, unless comparing full load to full load and in those scenarios the Alleghany would be faster.
There’s one of these in proctor Minnesota #225 it’s sitting outside and you can walk all around it it’s quite a sight to see you used to be able to climb up on top of it as there were no barriers but I’m not sure if this is still the case as I haven’t taken the time to stop by it again on my way past but if you haven’t seen it up close it’s worth a stop
Also look up the H-8 Alleghenys of the Chesapeake and Ohio. Not quite as much tractive effort, but more powerful and faster than a UP Big Boy. Also needed a 3-axle trailing truck to support the firebox because of lower quality coal.
And yet, the C&O's Alleghenies had more horsepower than either of these engines. The trouble with trying to compare these engines is that they were built to fill different roles. The Big Boys were to sprint across the western plains. The Yellowstones were to drag unbelievably heavy ore trains out the iron range of Minnesota at much slower speeds. They Alleghenies were design under the Super Power philosophy so they had boilers that would always produce 10% more steam than the engines could consume so they would never run out of power.
Read it and weep…. I grew up in northern Colorado (Greeley). A favorite weekend trek was to pace the Big Boys from Cheyenne to Laramie. No Interstate highways in those days! The trackage was significantly different back then… Oh yes, I’m old enough to remember Truman as President!
I consider how boiler technology advanced through the short years they were used for steam locomotives! Locomotives were pretty small when they started, burning wood and only pulling a few cars! I wonder how many hundred the Yellowstone could pull?
I was so enamored when the Big-Boy was rebuilt (i still am) and there are sights that say they are they largest steam engines, but there are a few sights that say the Alleganys are the largest engines ever. Either way I didn't know about the "Yellowstones" back then and now I am so interested in this steam engine, and it may be my favorite.
some models of GN and NP locomotives were rated using a much more conservative equation than other locomotives. In many documented engineering studies, the GN and NP locomotives that worked the northern routes between Seattle and Montana and east of there too were the most powerful steam locomotives EVER used in the US.
There are a half dozen locomotives more powerful than a Big Boy including the most powerful one that you’ve probably never heard of. You are right to place the DM&IR Yellowstone, rated at 140,000 pounds, above the Big Boy, rated at 135,000 pounds on the tractive effort list. I can hear the wailing of the C&O fans about their 2-6-6-6 which was conservatively estimated at only 110,000 pounds TE. Some other surprising ones. How pppabout the Western Pacific? Their articulateds numbered in the 251-260 series had a tractive effort of 137,000 pounds. It’s unheard of to equate a WP Mallet out-pulling a Big Boy, but there it is. Northern Pacific makes the bigger-than-Big Boy list with their massive Z-5 which equals the DM&IR Yellowstone at 140,000 pounds of tractive effort. If the NP went off-line to buy some good eastern coal or converted to oil it’s likely the Z-5 would take top honors but the engine was designed to burn the flour-like lignite from the NP’s online mine. The Great Northern’s R-2 class 2-8-8-2 built by the railroad in their own shops from 1929-1931 was rated at 151,000 pounds of tractive effort at zero cutoff, 16,000 pounds more than Big Boy. In a decision that will always be one of life’s great mysteries, Norfolk and Western built the last compound expansion locomotives that exceeded all with 170,000 pounds of tractive effort, 35,000 pounds more than Big Boy. Big Boy may be the most powerful steamer alive today but it certainly wasn’t during steam’s last days. Being a Missabe fan, I’d love nothing more than to see one of the three surviving Yellowstones under steam again but there’s not enough money in the world or an exceedingly generous benefactor that would cover the millions needed to make that happen and even if they did where would it run other than Pork City or Proctor Hill? The M-3 was built to haul iron ore from mine to lakefront and haul the empty ore cars back to the mines which it did exceedingly well in a robot-like regularity. 16,000-ton trains, a staggering amount, all day every day brought to the ore docks to be shipped to the steel mills in the east. I can’t see Big Boy surviving in that environment for long. In today’s parlance, locomotives built with Lima’s boiler or American’s boiler suffer from a poor power-to-weight ratio. The C&O’s 2-6-6-6 is a good example. Heavy as it was-well in excess of a million pounds, it did not produce the astounding tractive effort it should have. It had a very high-horsepower boiler that easily kept up with the demands of high-speed running but for a boiler with a grate area so large it required a six-wheel trailing truck to hold it up it didn’t even exceed Big Boy. With a smaller driver diameter we would have seen the huge numbers expected from such a beast. All data is from the authoritative cyclopedia, “Articulated Steam Locomotives of North America” by Robert A. LeMessena (Sundance Publications, September, 1979).
Tractive effort is not power. It is linear static pull. Also, never quote LeMessena if you want to be taken seriously. He was a fool and a massive fibber all rolled into a single person. The guy literally made stuff up for his books.
Unfortunately there are none of these giants in running condition but if you want to see one in person there is one near the harbor in Two Harbors Minnesota about a half hour north of Duluth on the North shore it's just amazing how big this engine is it sure would be nice if they could restore one to operating conditions like Union Pacific dead with the big boy but I doubt if that will ever happen
The naming convention Yellowstone was not based on the 2-8-8-4 wheel arrangement as stated here in this documentary. The Yellowstone name was a reference to the Southern Pacific railroad, which took delivery of the very first Baldwin EM-1 Yellowstones, puling heavy Frieght along and across the Yellowstone River.
I saw them daily pulling into the DMIR staging before pushing Ore Cars up on Loading Dock. VERY POWERFUL 140 ORE car loads not uncommon. Separate bell on back of tender deck too.
The Yellowstone was the mightiest of them all for me, but was unsuited for fast freights as the top speed was too low. It was probably most in its element at 20-25mph which would be the typical speed for a loaded ore train. Because ore was the main bulk commodity transported by the DM&IR speed wasn't important, it was important to get the continuous flow of ore trains going, so a locomotive that was reliable and would keep the stuff moving in all kinds of circumstances was more important.
The VGN AG,and the C&O H-9 Alleghenies(2-6-6-6)are definitely in that running for high tractive effort/boiler power,as like the Big Boy,the boiler rating was over 6000HP! And the TE rating was proportional! Anyway,they are in the top 3,or 5 depending on whose ratings,you're following! Thank you 😇 😊!
Normally I wouldn't do this but it was like nails on a chalkboard hearing it ... Duluth = Da-lou-th the "lou" is big part of how it's pronounced over here.
Actually, the Virginian AE 2-10-10-2's of 1918 were even more powerful, with 156,000 lbs TE working compound and 176,000 lbs starting in simple mode. They pushed coal over a 2.07% grade until replaced by electrics in 1925 but continued to pull coal in more level territory until replaced by 2-6-6-6 engines in 1948.
I'm into HO scale model railroading ,, I''ve seen New Jersey custom brass model of the AE next to a brass BIG BOY The AE made the Big Boy look slender and not as bulky ..
A lot of people are trying to compare the two straight up, but I think the only fair comparison would be to compare a similar load over the same line, with factoring in fuel used, maintenance needed, and the overall speed in which it was done, over a month or so, to see which one was more economical. Economics is the deciding factor in choosing a locomotive, after all, railroading is a BUSINESS....
If we’re gonna be making numbers comparisons like this, best get a better understanding of what those numbers mean in real life. Yes, the DMIR engines have more rated tractive effort than the Big Boys do, but the difference is minimal (140k lbs vs 135 k lbs). That means the maximum tonnage both locomotives could start and pull on the same gradients was also quite similar. Indeed, a DMIR M-3/4 would be rated for ~2,300 tons on a 2.2% hill while a UP 4000-class would be rated for ~2,200 tons, a difference of only 100 tons or so, the equivalent of about 4 unloaded cars from that era of railroading.
Where the Big Boys outshine the DMIR Yellowstones is in their general purpose design. The Yellowstones had smaller drivers (63 inches vs 68 inches) and thus had a lower top speed and achieved maximum drawbar horsepower at a lower speed as well (both were rated for about 6,000 hp). The Big Boys could take the same tonnage that the DMIR engines could and accelerate that tonnage to a higher speed.
In short, the UP Big Boys could show up on the DMIR and perform the same work that the Yellowstones were doing without much additional difficulty, but the reverse cannot be said about the DMIR engines. Yes, the Yellowstones would have handled Wasatch grade and Sherman Hill as well as the Big Boys, but would have fallen flat on the Wyoming plateau, territory where the Big Boys could take the same 4000-5000 ton trains they dragged up the hill and accelerate them up to 55-60 mph.
Well, taking into consideration fanbois being fanbois, Ive heard the argument made that the reason for the lower tonnage rating on the Big Boys was becuase UP wanted to maintain higher speeds. That it in fact could haul well over 2300 tons but it would greatly reduce it's it's speed in doing so. 2200 tons is about where the speed ration started dropping off drastically for the Big Boys as tonnage increased, where as the smaller driver and slower Yellowstones wouldn't even notice the difference, since they weren't going fast anyway.
Most of the late steam era large steam engines we still dont today what they could really pull in total. For most railroads, their on the books ratings had as much to do with minimal viable speed the railroad wanted to maintain as anything else. Some other large but slow draggers, like N&W and C&O 2-8-8-2's were also considered to theoretically be able to outpull a Big Boy, but the Big Boy could do it faster.
Great info, thanks for putting this together.
It seems like you really really want the Big Boy to continue to hold the mantle of the "biggest" engine, but it only outweighs on weight and on top speed, but not on tractive effort or gradeability. So you're right and you're wrong. As you yourself wrote, "making numbers comparisons".....
Except for the fact that the Union Pacific limited Big Boy to a maximum of 55 mph in actual service, a speed the DM&IR Yellowstone could also run at all day....
Mans trying so hard to make the big boi come out on top 😂😂 please stop the favoritism
Imagine if a Big Boy and a Yellowstone both went toe to toe in a strength competition, that would be a sight to behold!
Only if you add SD40 to the mix.
I maintain that Yellowstone should win the strength competition but Big Boy will win the speed race hands down. Big Boy sacrificed some power for raw speed which was necessary for the running it would do.
@@PennsyPappasyou also have to remember that Big Boys route was for the most part pretty flat. While the yellowstones were constantly marching up and down hills and mountains.
@@HMSHOOD1920 Which I do as a matter of fact, the UP and Santa Fe tried Y3b engines from the N&W and that didnt work out so well. The UP needed speed to get perishable goods across the western U.S. in a timely matter over flat track. Ya really don't need raw power for that vs going through the mountains. Plus Yellowstones had a very short distance to travel in comparison and The tonnage in the Iron range moves down hill and empties go up hill. One of the big advantages was that Yellowstone could go the full distance without stopping for water unlike the smaller engines.
@@HMSHOOD1920you do realize the big boys were specifically designed to move trains over the continental divide without needing helpers while being able to run with it on the flat lands
The ruling grades were from 0.82% to 1.14% depending on route
It’s important to note that the Yellowstones and Big Boys were built for two different purposes. The Big Boys were built more for fast freights and not so much for heavy drags because of their geographic route availability. The Yellowstones were built for slow heavy drags. They worked in more densely populated areas where speed wasn’t as key. The Big Boys meanwhile mainly worked in sparsely populated areas, mainly southern Wyoming, part of Colorado, and even Utah, where speed was more key, not to mention they were deep in America’s interior while the Yellowstones were closer to the shore.
Also, the DM&R Yellowstones weren’t the only Yellowstones that could output a Big Boy, the NP’s Z-5’s were the only other ones that could. The Big Boys are like the Western Pacific challengers; dessert articulateds. These mallets that could outperform the Big Boys, Yellowstones, Etc, had a different purpose in mind, and different geographic terrain.
This is so true. It's one reason that I think the Alleghenys were some of the best locomotives that got completely misused. They wre built for fast mixed traffic and instead got put on long mountain coal drags.
A dessert articulated sounds delicious! 🍨
@@garryferrington811 Sounds like a large dessert at a railroad themed restaurant.
That is not entirely true of the 2-8-8-4 design. The B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4s were often used on express mail trains and fast general merchandise freights. At 60 mph, they put out more power than a pair of double headed 4-8-2 Mountain locomotives.
@markantony3875 yes but in general this is the case. And also there's a variety of other factors that go into designing a steamer for speed one of the most important being wheel size. Look at a N&W Y6 versus big boy. Big boy has massive wheels compared to a yy
I was lucky enough to see Big Boy roll through Union Station in Kansas City 5 years ago. It's such an extraordinary piece of machinery.
I can imagine, I mean its interesting how over the years steam locomotives went from small designs that where only just bigger than your average man to great hulking beasts that are the size of a couple small houses.
I'm still waiting for my opportunity to see #4014 live.
@@asdfdsa45The dream!
Every part of that was designed and built without computers THINK ABOUT IT
I'll be seeing her again real soon.
Minnesota Railfan here, it is a personal gripe of mine that the DMIR Yellowstone Locomotives are overshadowed as much as they are by the Big Boys. They are incredible feats of engineering. You can see one "run" at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum in Duluth, MN. It doesnt actually run, but the wheels do spin.
The average speed of these guys were 20mph. They could go 45, but they never did. The rails around Northern Minnesota are too tight, too steep and too treacherous to go fast. Thats one of the reasons they went big. If you have to have a train doing 20 mph, its more efficient if its moving 4 trains worth of cargo.
Thanks for the explainer!
Glad to see another Minnesota railfan once in a while, good explanation too! As far away as it probably is I'd love to see 227 restored some day
@@creamedcrop5076 Well, hey there bud. You can mark off another fellow Minnesota railfan. I don't post hardly ever, but I enjoy railroads, as I come from a railroad family, specifically the Soo Line.
@@ThatMNguy2116 Love the Soo line! I wish they never replaced their old logo. Got to see some real pretty Soo line steam and diesel locomotives up in Duluth
It doesn't matter who is the better of the two, they are both awsome pieces of steam technolagy and we can all agree on that :)
Fax
Here here!
Preach!
Very true, and they were both built for differing tasks.
So who wins? The rail fans win.
I worked on the DM&IR from 1974 to 1989…out of PROCTOR and TWO HARBORS…..I never heard anybody….brakemen-conductors-switchman-engineers-or firemen…..call these engines “Yellowstones,”- in THEIR common everyday vernacular, these engines were referred to as “MALLETS” -- all these old-timers are now retired and gone….but if there had ever been a contest of strength between these two powerhouse locomotives……it would have been spectacular….and they wouldn’t have missed it……I witnessed quite a gathering of retired rails and rail fans on the day a switch-engine delivered (shoved) a mallet into the RAILROAD MUSEUM in DULUTH, MINNESOTA…..for the first time ever…..it was almost too big to get through the doors of the building…..they had to scramble a little bit…..but they got it through, anyway-and that was a good day for everybody…..
These were the first of the true "super power" locomotives I ever saw when my mom and dad first took me on vacation to Duluth, Minnesota in 2011. In Proctor I first got my glimpse of heavy haul when I saw one of the M3 Yellowstones that're still around and my god are they fierce machines! That same year was also when the old Duluth Missabe & Iron Range Railroad got bought out by the Canadian National Railroad or whatever line it's apart of now. From the mines to the harbor to have the ore loaded onto freighters such as the Edmund Fitzgerald and the Arthur M. Anderson to go to Pittsburgh and other great cities on the Eastern Sea Board to power the metal making industry.
Yep. I'm familiar with these as the DMIR is in my backyard. I've seen the one on display in Proctor, MN more times I can count. Good video.
Thank you for featuring our locomotive! The Lake Superior Railroad Museum thanks you! The LSRM recently made a video on these engines too, and I was the star! Yellowstones likely won't be coming back, and the LSRM certainly won't be restoring ours. If we have a huge rich person to buy out one of the 3 engines, then CN might run it, as CN owns the DM&IR.
CN hates steam! They mothballed the 2860 when they bought B.C. Rail. So don't expect them to restore and run the 225, 227 or 229 any time soon.
@@bobjohnson205 I know. It's just there. CN does however have respect for our steamers. But, as you said, CN would likely not allow that.
@@nssrrailfan They may have "respect" for yours but they will never initiate their own steam program.
Yes I don’t think CN would want a massive one million pound steam locomotive running on their line… oh well, they look just fine on display! I’m just glad any of them were preserved at all!
Three of them are left in preservation and all in Minnesota in the area they worked. M3 Class #225 in Proctor, MN in a public park next to the DM&IR’s yard in Proctor; M3 #227 in Duluth, MN; and M4 Class #229 in Two Harbors, MN. Though #229 is actually the fourth DMIR Yellowstone to be put on display there. Number 222 was first in 1960 until it was called back to service for fan trips, #236 followed #222 on display later that same year, until it was brought back to thaw iron ore during that winter, #221 replaced #236 until 1967 when it deteriorated so badly the DMIR decided to scrap it, with #229 (with the tender from #222 fittingly enough) replacing the 221.
@mattskey1 same. I’ve always wanted to see the 225 but have never found myself in Proctor.
not sure if you count the cabforward SP 4294, but that's still a yellowstone in my eyes
No.236,Man He Once Pull Iron-Ore Thingamajigs In RailCars,Unlike No.4014,He Didn't Make It Onto Restoration,Good Boy He Is
@@ballin330 good point.
@@MachRacer4 I’ve only really gotten a good look at the one in Proctor, although I did briefly visit the museum in Duluth as well.
Seen both Big Boy and Yellowstone up close, both are awe inspiring machines. No need to claim one is superior to another, both were designed for different purpose and geography, they served their purpose really well. It is like arguing which is the better cat, Tiger or the Lion
What of the Liger?
It's no contest, Tiger is definitely the better cat! lol
Mallet #227 is at my work and this video has been the talk of the depot, love it!!
One point right away: Say dulooth not dulluth please.
Looking forward to a great video of the more powerful Yellowstone's! : - )
Pound-feet is a unit of torque. Pound force is a unit of tractive effort.
Never thought I’d see the day this channel posts about my favorite steam locomotives! The DM&IR’s finest!
Not stated, but the reason why the DM&IR didn't use the Yellowstones in the winter was that the ore ships were iced in and couldn't deliver the ore to the rail head.
The ore boats(not ships) didn't deliver ore to the railhead, the railroad hauled ore to the docks in Duluth, Superior, and other ports to be loaded onto the ore boats, which hauled the ore to Indiana, Ohio, and other steel mill locations.
@@JustMe-md2gp Thanks, that makes sense. Same idea though, the trains couldn't run ore to the rail head in the winter because there was no ship there to pick it up as they were frozen in.
Let's not forget that a Big Boy No. 4014 did visit Duluth, Minnesota back in 2019.
These are so cool. I can remember steam powered trains in use. Love to see them come back into service. Thanks for posting some interesting history.
Big boy and Yellowstone after finding out eachother’s existance: Finally! A worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!
The B&O also had Yellowstones the EM1s, They were built during World War II to help the war effort by Baldwin in 1944 and were all retired by the late 50s
N&W Y6b was the king of tractive effort
Nothing gets my inner rail fan more excited than an engine with a double set of drive wheels.
One out east scraped in 1925 or so has 3 sets of drivers!
Need to compare the Big Boy to the Yellowstone to the Alleghany. There's an Alleghany engine at the Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI.
I agree with you. Here's hoping for a railroad rumble in the jingle. Thank you for the informational video.
Extremely interesting video, thank you very much, and Many Thanks for including Metric equivalents for the rest of the world! That was much appreciated.
I'm glad that there are Americans and companies That have kept these locomotive relics! And have kept them in a state or condition to where someday they can be restored and brought back to life! The american experience in the world of live steam and iron and steel steam locomotives!
There is always debate as to what locomotive is biggest, strongest, and so on. One locomotive, often overlooked was the Virginia's 2-10-10-2's They too were monster locomotives. I may be wrong, but I believe that the 2-10-10-2's still hold the record for tonnage haul by a single locomotive.
They had very small drivers, allowing for huge tractive effort, but were very slow. It was said that the engineer could get the engine running at full speed, climb out of the cab, run to the front, climb back on the engine and control the thing from the front, by an auxiliary throttle. There is a book about the Virginian (I can't remember the author), where they tell the story of the 2-10-10-2"s.
Nice video. The DM&IR 2-8-8-4's are also often overlooked too, mostly because of Big Boy's. ;-)
Another interesting one that worked on the DM&IR were the 0-10-2 Union types built originally for the Union Railroad in Western Pennsylvania. They were called the largest steam switchers ever built.
Great video, i "subscribed." Belatedly remembered something about a German super-steam locomotive we took custody of as a war prize, brought over here, and eventually scrapped. Yes, I'm kicking myself for not having the article.😧
Summers 1945 and 1946 I rode the New York Central Pacemaker from New York to Chicago, then the Chicago Northwestern-Union Pacific Overland Limited to Pocatello, Idaho and a feeder train Pocatello-Ashton ID to work for the summer at the J Bar Y Ranch just west of the Teton Range. Most exciting thing I'd ever done in my life. My 2 year old Appaloosa colt was named Apache and I so fell in love with him that I asked ranch owner Jack Young if I could buy him and take him home. Mr. Young replied, Seth you can't take him home because he's acclimated to our altitudes here around four thousand feet above sea level. Down there on the ocean in New York he would not survive.
I actually remember when Big Boy 4014 met DMIR 227 (Sorta). During the Big Boy's race across the Midwest, it would stop at the Lake Superior railroad museum for their festival of steam event. While DMIR 227 and 4014 never interacted, they were in the same location for 2 days. I was fortunate to attend this event, and I have even seen all 3 remaining Yellowstone locomotives. 227 is at the Lake Superior railroad museum. 229 is at the Two Harbors Depot. And 225 is next to a high school in Proctor, Minnesota.
Not next to the high school but in close proximity to the H.S. football field.
Sorry, you are right. I meant to say that.
The Yellowstone’s are by far my favorite class of steam locomotive of all time
Not only because of how strong they were
But because their crazy looking exterior smoke box in my opinion gave them a sort of rough fire breathing dragon like appearance versus the big boys who’s smoke box was all interior.
Their smoke box design was the coolest
The only reason why people say "Big boy is the biggest" is because the big boy is the only locomotive class sporting the 4-8-8-4 wheel arrangement. It can be debated on if the wheel arrangement makes a locomotive "the biggest"
There were more than a few steam locomotives more powerful than a Big Boy or a C&O Allegheny or the Erie triplex-which never achieved its calculated tractive effort due to its inability to make adequate steam. One little-discussed fact in the power debate is the preponderance of Baldwin products over American or Lima models. Let us not forget steamers built in railroad shops because in both cases these shops built the most powerful locomotives of all. Of course I’m talking about the Norfolk and Western’s Y model and the Great Northern’s R-2, rated at over 155,000 lbs before it was bushed down to a mere 149,000 pounds to reduce slippage. Western Pacific and the Rio Grande also owned articulated steamers more powerful than Big Boy. If it had burned anything other than cheap powder with the lowest BTUs, the Northern Pacific Z-5 would have quite literally crushed all competition. One railroad that had developed and built an ideal articulated Mallet that would have bested anything on rails was the Pennsylvania, which decided to go with rigid-frame locomotives over the incredibly powerful articulated sample they built. So Big Boy may be the King today, but if one of the surviving Missabe M’s were rebuilt and run it would become quickly apparent that Big Boy is not so big.
One is on display in Duluth, one is in Two Harbors and the other is in Proctor with a caboose hooked up to it. I have been fortunate to have seen all three.
B&O wanted diesels in the early 1940s but were prohibited from buying them by the War Production Board. So, they went to Baldwin and bought 30 EM-1 class Yellowstones, 7600-7629. They were smaller than the DM&IR engines account the tight clearances on the B&O but were still the largest engines on the roster. All were out of service by 1960 and none survived the scrapper.
Big Boy VS Yellowstone. Get ready... FIGHT!
Lake Erie Triplex
@@kishascape The Triplex will outpull either of them comfortably... for about 30 feet.
I will second your motion! 👍
The DM&IR "Yellowstones" and the Union Pacific "big boys" are both among two of my personal favorite top 10 articulated steam locomotive classes with both locomotives having different specified task uses. The UP "big boys" were designed for hauling fast freight trains across the western deserts of Wyoming and Utah, while the DM&IR "Yellowstones" were designed for hauling slow iron ore trains while moving at lower speeds. Both the "big boys" and the "Yellowstones" were great performing locomotives as both locomotive types are somewhat comparable, the DM&IR "Yellowstones" are interesting to me because they operated in northern Minnesota hauling heavy iron ore trains that can exceed a length of 150+ ore cars. I am pleased to see that there are 3 DM&IR 2-8-8-4 "Yellowstone" locomotives that were preserved and still exist today; this includes the locomotives #225,#227 and #229 which are all on display throughout the state of Minnesota.
one of my favorite youtubers covers my favorite steam engines ! as a minnesota rail fan we love to see the duh-looth representation :)
This is an irrelevant comparison. The Big Boy was designed to haul high speed freight trains in Utah and Wyoming. The DMRI locomotive was built to move heavy ore trains at modest speeds. Two locomotives designed for vastly different tasks.
Pronunciation: d’LOOTH. Great video!
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned this: wasn’t the Yellowstone also the base engine for the Southern Pacific Railroad’s famous Cab Forward locomotive? As I recall, the Cab Forward was a Yellowstone engine that was turned around front-to-back so that the cab was in front of the locomotive, with the tender at the rear and converted to burning oil instead of coal (since coal couldn’t be transported to the firebox at the front of the locomotive). The reversal of the engine front-to-back made it a 4-8-8-2 instead of a 2-8-8-4.
Finally the Minnesota super Iron ore Articulated Giga haulers got some spotlight i can be eternally happy now
Arguably one of the most important steam engines of the second world war given their immense contribution to getting that iron ore to Lake Superior so it could be shipped off to the steel mills to make all sorts of war machines and other weapons.
Same! And wouldn't you know, the ore cars I ordered from ModelTrainMarket arrived in the mail today too. It's a good day to be a Minnesota railfan!
My buddies and I would hop these monsters for a ride up the hill out of West Duluth , in the 50 s. Never forget the power. The one in Proctor is awsome.
Just for clarification: Yellowstone's were never used on Proctor Hill. The DM&IR used older "Hill Mallets"(2-8-8-2), Texas types, Santa Fe types and Union types on Proctor Hill to/from the ore docks in West End to Proctor.
@@Caje-zf8md This is interesting. I will need to research this. I was going to search for old photos of Yellowstones, (M4 Mallets) on the docks. Looks like I would have been searching a long time.....
Wonderful video! Thank you.
Was having smoked lake trout next to that yellowstone a couple weeks ago.
Hyce pointed out that Big Boy was never the biggest or the most powerful but i would say that Big Boy was probably the fastest and an all around best jack of all trades articulated engine.
Btw Duluth is pronounced as Duh-looth. Instead of Duh-luth.
They DMIR needed permission from the railroad to buy these because of resources but the Iron range was deemed necessary for the war effirt so it was easily granted.
The one in the Lake Superior Museum has its drivers spun by an electric motor with an audio history on the engines. Plus it was basically restored before being put undercover so it would be the one to get going again if that ever happened.
Dulooth is already a corruption of the original French name, at this point saying Duh-Luth is closer to the original pronunciation.
Big Boy wasn't as fast as the Challengers, which saw some use on passenger trains. Big Boy only has 5000lb less tractive effort than the Yellowstones despite the much larger drivers so it probably was a more powerful design.
@@sailormatlac9114 Maybe but I've only ever heard it pronounced as Duh looth so that is effectively the correct pronunciation. It's kind of like the M1 Garand rifle is technically being said wrong. Most people say it like Ga- Rand when the creator name was pronounced G - errand. Technically being said wrong but the rifle is still referred to it the first way so that's how it is. Sorry for long response but figured I needed an example.
@@davidfuller581 I kind of wondered which one had more speed but kind of just assumed Challenger being the smaller of the two would've been a bit faster. The power difference is a bit close on paper though I do wonder what their numbers would be using modern ways of calculating tractive effort. I know the Big Boy is rated less today but the UP then it's original rating but I don't remember the exact number.
There really wouldn't be any point to running one. Obviously the cost would be astronomical, and they're slow.
The Northern Pacific was the railroad that first commissioned the Yellowstone in 1928, named because they were running on the Yellowstone division from Glendive MT to Mandan ND, the grade is very heavy between Glendive and Fryburg, the heaviest is Beaver Hill
I'd say these two engines are pretty evenly matched.
The Yellowstones are definitely fine engines, but I think that an Allegheny could give a big boy a run for it's money.
When it comes to horsepower, the Allegheny would destroy the Big Boy.
@@asdfdsa45 yeah, especially if we go by the power ratings on Wikipedia.
I just wish they restored one
@@Arkay315 Wikipedia and several books publishing such information. Big Boy's HP is around 6,600 whereas the Allegheny was a bit over 7, 600HP. The Pennsy Q2 actually had more HP than the Allegheny (7, 800HP) also more than the Big Boy or Yellowstone.
@@asdfdsa45 More fire really does wonders.
Man , you need to talk about the Norfolk &western Y6 !
I don't remember the tractive effort on the Virginian's 2-10-10-2's, but they were extremely powerful, albeit slow.
Cool Video ..... Let's not forget the 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Class , which were also Extremely powerful engine ...
N&W's Y6B's were even more powerful than either the Big Boy or the Yellowstone's of DM&IR. The Y6B had a tractive effort of 166,000 lbf and a top speed of 50 mph. Those were home built in the East End shops in Roanoke, Va and only 1 survives today in St. louis
I think an honorable mention should go to the Soviet P38 Articulated Locomotive, which featured the same 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone Wheel Arrangement, and had a unique Semi-Streamlined Casing.
It would be interesting if they restored a Yellowstone to full running condition and put it up to the test with the Big boy. Pull a load on both. Either way it would be great to see anything steam-powered restored to running condition. I love to see good old things coming back to life.
There is a Yellowstone on display at Proctor, MN also
I'm just gonna leave this here
th-cam.com/video/eo69o-J8abY/w-d-xo.html
Okay, so I can't stay quiet if this is going to be the video for this week. The DM&IR are probably the most loved steam engines in the State of Minnesota after Milwaukee Road S-3 No. 261 and I am a fan of them myself as I've visited the Lake Superior Railroad Museum a few times. The fact that all three are preserved at home where they worked is probably something to brag about. Thank you for covering these Missabe Monsters. It gives the Minnesotans and the iron ore railfans alike something to unite over and show the world what was so special about the Minnesota Iron Range. Anyone who is not from Minnesota, and especially out of the country, be amazed!
“Vs. Klungo” from Banjo-Tooie, a classic!
FINALLY THANK YOU W TRAIN OF THOUGHT
5:11 "That is until somehow gets fed up and decides to bite off..." oh. So you weren't going there...
Big boy: I AM THE STRONGEST, LARGEST, MOST POWERFUL, BOW TO MEEEE
Yellowstone: lmao weak shit
"I see no god up here, OTHER THAN ME!"
If a person dead-lifts ten pounds more than Hafthor Bjornsson, does that make HB weak shit? No. Having not quite 5000 lbs more TE than the Big Boy doesn’t make the Big Boy weak shit, either.
Big Boy: Weak but reactivated😂
Great Northern R-2 has entered the chat.
Lake Eire triplex: what about me?
I would like to see one of these restored for excursions like the "Big Boy". Thank goodness some were saved.
the correct metric for a locomotive is the boiler HP. they could (and did) stuff boosters under the tender to raise peak tractive effort and with it the largest load the locomotive could start. They sized the drivers for the target operating speed, and the grate area and firebox volume for the quality of the coal or for oil burning, but the boiler surface area determined how many lb of dry steam per hour were produced which fixed the size of the cylinders to expand the steam to extract work from the stuff.
“That boy is our biggest engine.”
“No. There is another.”
You should take a look at the Alleghany locomotive too.. they could out pull a Big Boy easily, there were slower, unless comparing full load to full load and in those scenarios the Alleghany would be faster.
I remember seeing a Yellowstone at the Duluth museum. It's funny how long it took to walk from one end to the other.
There’s one of these in proctor Minnesota #225 it’s sitting outside and you can walk all around it it’s quite a sight to see you used to be able to climb up on top of it as there were no barriers but I’m not sure if this is still the case as I haven’t taken the time to stop by it again on my way past but if you haven’t seen it up close it’s worth a stop
Also look up the H-8 Alleghenys of the Chesapeake and Ohio. Not quite as much tractive effort, but more powerful and faster than a UP Big Boy. Also needed a 3-axle trailing truck to support the firebox because of lower quality coal.
4014 can now run on the mainline without a diesel helper due to having PTC installed. 😊
I've seen one of these at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum in Duluth, MN.
Apart from mispronouncing Duluth, this is actually really cool. W Train of Thought.
And yet, the C&O's Alleghenies had more horsepower than either of these engines. The trouble with trying to compare these engines is that they were built to fill different roles. The Big Boys were to sprint across the western plains. The Yellowstones were to drag unbelievably heavy ore trains out the iron range of Minnesota at much slower speeds. They Alleghenies were design under the Super Power philosophy so they had boilers that would always produce 10% more steam than the engines could consume so they would never run out of power.
Read it and weep…. I grew up in northern Colorado (Greeley). A favorite weekend trek was to pace the Big Boys from Cheyenne to Laramie. No Interstate highways in those days! The trackage was significantly different back then… Oh yes, I’m old enough to remember Truman as President!
I consider how boiler technology advanced through the short years they were used for steam locomotives! Locomotives were pretty small when they started, burning wood and only pulling a few cars! I wonder how many hundred the Yellowstone could pull?
I was so enamored when the Big-Boy was rebuilt (i still am) and there are sights that say they are they largest steam engines, but there are a few sights that say the Alleganys are the largest engines ever. Either way I didn't know about the "Yellowstones" back then and now I am so interested in this steam engine, and it may be my favorite.
Thanks!
I,love the big boy 4884 and in my opinion is the greatest steam engine next to the 484 southern Pacific daylight
some models of GN and NP locomotives were rated using a much more conservative equation than other locomotives. In many documented engineering studies, the GN and NP locomotives that worked the northern routes between Seattle and Montana and east of there too were the most powerful steam locomotives EVER used in the US.
Let’s also not forget about N&W’s Y6B class of locomotives. The last of mainline steam
If I remember correctly, the Y6B was stronger than Big Boy and DM&IR's Yellowstones.
@@cris_261 it absolutely was! 2156 (last of the Y6 class) is the most powerful steamer still in existence
I would like to see the Yellowstone vs the Y6B. Another great locomotive that gets overshadowed by the big boy.
N&W Y6b: look at what they need to mimic a fraction of my power
In simple, yes
N&W Y6B : All the tractive effort in the world 😂
There are a half dozen locomotives more powerful than a Big Boy including the most powerful one that you’ve probably never heard of. You are right to place the DM&IR Yellowstone, rated at 140,000 pounds, above the Big Boy, rated at 135,000 pounds on the tractive effort list. I can hear the wailing of the C&O fans about their 2-6-6-6 which was conservatively estimated at only 110,000 pounds TE. Some other surprising ones. How pppabout the Western Pacific? Their articulateds numbered in the 251-260 series had a tractive effort of 137,000 pounds. It’s unheard of to equate a WP Mallet out-pulling a Big Boy, but there it is. Northern Pacific makes the bigger-than-Big Boy list with their massive Z-5 which equals the DM&IR Yellowstone at 140,000 pounds of tractive effort. If the NP went off-line to buy some good eastern coal or converted to oil it’s likely the Z-5 would take top honors but the engine was designed to burn the flour-like lignite from the NP’s online mine. The Great Northern’s R-2 class 2-8-8-2 built by the railroad in their own shops from 1929-1931 was rated at 151,000 pounds of tractive effort at zero cutoff, 16,000 pounds more than Big Boy. In a decision that will always be one of life’s great mysteries, Norfolk and Western built the last compound expansion locomotives that exceeded all with 170,000 pounds of tractive effort, 35,000 pounds more than Big Boy. Big Boy may be the most powerful steamer alive today but it certainly wasn’t during steam’s last days. Being a Missabe fan, I’d love nothing more than to see one of the three surviving Yellowstones under steam again but there’s not enough money in the world or an exceedingly generous benefactor that would cover the millions needed to make that happen and even if they did where would it run other than Pork City or Proctor Hill? The M-3 was built to haul iron ore from mine to lakefront and haul the empty ore cars back to the mines which it did exceedingly well in a robot-like regularity. 16,000-ton trains, a staggering amount, all day every day brought to the ore docks to be shipped to the steel mills in the east. I can’t see Big Boy surviving in that environment for long. In today’s parlance, locomotives built with Lima’s boiler or American’s boiler suffer from a poor power-to-weight ratio. The C&O’s 2-6-6-6 is a good example. Heavy as it was-well in excess of a million pounds, it did not produce the astounding tractive effort it should have. It had a very high-horsepower boiler that easily kept up with the demands of high-speed running but for a boiler with a grate area so large it required a six-wheel trailing truck to hold it up it didn’t even exceed Big Boy. With a smaller driver diameter we would have seen the huge numbers expected from such a beast. All data is from the authoritative cyclopedia, “Articulated Steam Locomotives of North America” by Robert A. LeMessena (Sundance Publications, September, 1979).
Tractive effort is not power. It is linear static pull. Also, never quote LeMessena if you want to be taken seriously. He was a fool and a massive fibber all rolled into a single person. The guy literally made stuff up for his books.
❤ nice 👍 Fabolous 🍓🍎🍒🥰💕🥰 video 📸😄😊
Unfortunately there are none of these giants in running condition but if you want to see one in person there is one near the harbor in Two Harbors Minnesota about a half hour north of Duluth on the North shore it's just amazing how big this engine is it sure would be nice if they could restore one to operating conditions like Union Pacific dead with the big boy but I doubt if that will ever happen
American railroads have always preferred assigning bigger locomotives over assigning more locomotives, because it was almost always cheaper.
The naming convention Yellowstone was not based on the 2-8-8-4 wheel arrangement as stated here in this documentary. The Yellowstone name was a reference to the Southern Pacific railroad, which took delivery of the very first Baldwin EM-1 Yellowstones, puling heavy Frieght along and across the Yellowstone River.
I believe you meant Northern Pacific.
I wish someone would get a Yellowstone engine back in running order, because Big Boy vs. Yellowstone would be a match of the Century!
I like all of the other steam locomotive mentioned in this video but the Big Boy 4884 to me is still the Greatest Of All Time.
Have you done a video on the N&W Y6b yet? Another big boy-ish locomotive to take a look at!
I saw them daily pulling into the DMIR staging before pushing Ore Cars up on Loading Dock. VERY POWERFUL 140 ORE car loads not uncommon. Separate bell on back of tender deck too.
I can see how this design would work for a SP Cab Forward
The Yellowstone was the mightiest of them all for me, but was unsuited for fast freights as the top speed was too low. It was probably most in its element at 20-25mph which would be the typical speed for a loaded ore train. Because ore was the main bulk commodity transported by the DM&IR speed wasn't important, it was important to get the continuous flow of ore trains going, so a locomotive that was reliable and would keep the stuff moving in all kinds of circumstances was more important.
The VGN AG,and the C&O H-9 Alleghenies(2-6-6-6)are definitely in that running for high tractive effort/boiler power,as like the Big Boy,the boiler rating was over 6000HP! And the TE rating was proportional! Anyway,they are in the top 3,or 5 depending on whose ratings,you're following! Thank you 😇 😊!
I can’t believe you made this whole video without mentioning you can go see a surviving “working” Yellowstone at the depot in Duluth, MN.
Normally I wouldn't do this but it was like nails on a chalkboard hearing it ... Duluth = Da-lou-th the "lou" is big part of how it's pronounced over here.
Actually, the Virginian AE 2-10-10-2's of 1918 were even more powerful, with 156,000 lbs TE working compound and 176,000 lbs starting in simple mode. They pushed coal over a 2.07% grade until replaced by electrics in 1925 but continued to pull coal in more level territory until replaced by 2-6-6-6 engines in 1948.
I'm into HO scale model railroading ,,
I''ve seen New Jersey custom brass model of the AE next to a brass BIG BOY
The AE made the Big Boy look slender and not as bulky ..
I would have loved to see these 2 powerhouses Back then.
A lot of people are trying to compare the two straight up, but I think the only fair comparison would be to compare a similar load over the same line, with factoring in fuel used, maintenance needed, and the overall speed in which it was done, over a month or so, to see which one was more economical. Economics is the deciding factor in choosing a locomotive, after all, railroading is a BUSINESS....