I absolutely love what Hart says about the resurrection of our bodies - it has helped me with a lot of the trauma I have dealt with in life from being violated and sexually abused. Knowing that this abused fleshly body is not what I will have to carry into eternity, gives me hope and healing. Living in this abused body has been nothing but deep burden, shame and pain. That God will allow me to shed this damaged body and replace it with a powerful, incorruptible and glorified "spiritual body" - spiritually embodied like something of angels, gives me reason to keep living. I wish more Christians would speak like Hart does on these matters.
@@dystopian-futureI’m sorry that that had happened to you. Indeed, God promises to make all things new. Hart is so right here. Our bodies are tied to mortality and death. For us to be made anew, to be transformed and fully healed, we need to be brought into eternal life in some other way, a way unbound by death. As for @william’s comment, the best you can do is pity him. He lacks the caring and concern and love of the Father and he’s less because of that. He is drawn further away from the divine. He has been damaged and corrupted in some way. He too, at some point, will be healed and restored and be made new. Let’s pray he chooses love and goodness and kindness sooner to share in God’s loving ways with his fellow men/women.
these physical bodies of ours are disgusting burdens if they are anything at all. i don't understand why anyone in their right mind would even desire to carry this corrupted, broken, fundamentally imperfect vessel into a place which is to be perfect and pure. The physical body, as we are experiencing it in this fallen world, and the heavenly realm are simply incompatible with each other.
@@gumis123PL What’s disgusting, is your attitude about bodies, if you’re a Christian, you’re surely incorrect to have such a anti-material view. And the “heavenly realm” isn’t the fate of those who trust in Christ, it’s a renewed Earth, and body, that’s in harmony and Union with Heaven and or God.
Thank you Dr. Hart, that is exactly my understanding. Our resurrection body is an actual physical body that is constructed, for lack of a better word, of incorruptible spiritual matter. Hence we have an actual physical body that is immortal like Christ.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 You have a great imagination! However, I think you should occasionally spend some time reading nonfiction. While you're here, deepening your understanding of the real world is a healthy and productive use of your time.
DBH is the worst evangelist you could possibly imagine; arrogant, nasty, inhospitable, insulting, a suspect faculty of reason, and a piss-poor writer to boot.
@@ericprinzing1600go touch some grass pls, you come off like a bitter ex, but in this case he doesnt even know who you are and its clear you arent really very familiar with him either
The physicality of Christ’s Resurrection, and our future Resurrection, is severely important to the promises of the New Testament. Paul, particularly in 1 Corinthians 15, outlines a stark contrast between our current corruptible bodies and our future incorruptible bodies. The Gospel accounts, Luke and John primarily, go out of their way to depict the physicality of Christ’s Resurrection, which is the firstfruits of our own Resurrection. This is important: the Christian hope has never been that our disembodied souls will go to heaven, but rather that this world and our own individual bodies will be renewed, transformed into an incorruptible state, and heaven and earth will be one.
Amen to that, Gnosticism is a heresy that insults God’s creativity, the denial of the physical being good and God goal for humanity is just that Gnostic nonsense.
@@ShawHortonMusic Bizarre. Don't you have anything better to do with your limited time here, like maybe learning about the real world? Do you really want to spend it immersed in the ancient equivalent of a superhero comic book?
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39) "Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' ” (John 20:27) ~ The Luke verse depicts Jesus appearing to his disciples and stating "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” The verse in John's Gospel depicts Jesus REappearing to the disciples eight days after Thomas had stated, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” Jesus said to Thomas, "“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Philippians 2 teaches us that "Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name..." Here, Paul reveals to us that there was a post-death-and-resurrection exaltation of the Son of God. One could even argue, based on Philippians 2, that it was a return to his former glory. . . But back to Thomas and the disciples. Those two accounts, Luke 24:39 and John 20:27, help us see that even though Jesus Christ overcame death, he still possessed (or chose to possess in that instance) physical characteristics (not a mortal physicality, but an immortal one): He let them touch his wounds (which meant it was the same body that had bled and died), he let them know that he still possessed flesh and bone(s), AND he asked for something to eat in order to prove that his body was very much human. An ethereal spirit body need not eat, but a gloried human body can. Does that mean one HAS to eat, or do any number of things we generally do in our earthly bodies upon having been glorified? No, but perhaps the option to do certain physical things will be available. We do not actually acquire a new body when we are resurrected. Paul makes it clear that we do not surrender a deathly mortal body in exchange for another, but rather that this very body we possess shall undergo a metamorphosis: "...the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' ” (1 Corinthians 15:52b-54)
Hart's point in this video is that spiritual embodiment for Paul was clearly *far more substantial* than fleshly embodiment (see link to "The Spiritual Was More Substantial Than the Material for the Ancients" by Hart below). So the common experience of Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection with a glorified and transfigured body (which Hart is explicitly affirming here) was simply described and conceptualized in various ways and with various kinds of language. For my own part, it is obvious that, despite the contrasting language, Paul and Luke are both saying that the resurrection body is more substantial. Luke is contrasting the substantial resurrection body as something fleshly with something ghostly and insubstantial while Paul does exactly the same thing by saying that only a spirit body is substantial enough to participate in eternal life. They use the terms flesh and spirit in opposite ways but to make a similar point overall. Paul is speaking in more technical metaphysical categories and terminology while the gospel author is using more popular meanings of words. churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-spiritual-was-more-substantial-than-the-material-for-the-ancients/
@@chikkipopI’m Christian but even if I wasn’t, I would still be fascinated by it. It’s a 2000 year old faith with a wonderful mix of theology, tradition, and scripture. Why are people fascinated by Chinese myths, Greek myths, etc? Not saying Christianity is a myth, I believe it to be true, but your comment is needlessly dismissive. Human beings are fascinated by all sorts of things- and Christianity (even if you don’t believe it to be true) is fascinating. Not sure why you can’t understand that.
@countryboyred I don't care about what's "fascinating;" I care about what's true, and far too many people believe improbable stories about magical invisible father figures are true, apparently you included. OF COURSE I am dismissive! When people prefer ancient stories over learning about the real world, we all pay a price for their ignorance.
I think it’s fair to say that when Christ rose He didn’t necessarily have a functioning kidney, liver, heart, etc. He certainly didn’t have the same sort of corruptable body that we have presently.
@@Triumph_of_the_Sky He also walked through doors and teleported. I think it’s safe to say the resurrected body will be able to do all sorts of things the body of flesh cannot do. And I suspect eating without need of sustenance, nor utilizing organs of digestion could be one.
I don't see a contention. Flesh and blood achieve their destiny. The earthly and heavenly become one thing. we don't stop being human, we become the humans that we were meant to be.
@@chikkipop We were meant to be sons and daughters of God. Children of God do not die. However, we are born into a fallen state. Our Lord Jesus restores us. He gives us the “power to become children of God” once again (john1:12). This happens through resurrection, where our mortality puts on immortality (1Cor. 15:53).
@@byzantinedeacon But I asked how you knew we were "meant to be" anything. All you've done is repeat the claim. What is a "god" and how do you know about it? Also, why does your comment appear to be a recitation of common claims among a select group of people, complete with links to a very particular source, all of it separate from the general population and requiring a particular identity? Are you aware of the concept of *indoctrination,* and how it impacts people who are taught to believe things at an early age, after which they grow up thinking it is perfectly normal? The goal of the questioner is to find out why extraordinary claims are being made in so casual a way as to simply assume they're true, when their truth would be an astounding discovery that people outside of the select group would most assuredly want to hear all about.
The power of inner imagination is deeply atrophied in most people today. Hence, the possibility of a “physical” body being immaterial and not grossly material is literally inconceivable to them.
Too often, people are unwilling to concede the limitations of their understanding, thereby rejecting all that lies outside the bubble of their supposed, "comprehensive" knowledge. The song of so many wrongs is titled Pride, particularly among those oblivious to it's presence in them.
@@chikkipop Huh? People who adhere to "science" are ignorant of it's intrinsic naivete. "Physics" is only a summation of our current understanding, which is always changing. It is not only currently limited in regard to comprehensive knowledge, but will always be secondary until it reaches that full comprehension, which will never happen because it is, in effect, infinite.Therefore, to put full trust in "science" is to place full trust in diminished understanding. Great logic and incredibly stupid! Next!!!
@@williamoarlock8634 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Taking every thought captive to Christ is to take every thought captive to the truth. The inverse would be to not do so, therefore your thoughts are captive to the lie, which is pretty stupid and seems to be the general responsive consensus of modern society. That's a dead end to nowhereville. Good luck with that.
It’s Friday, September 20th, 2024 as I write this. When I saw DBH in my TH-cam feed, I assumed it was going to be him talking about Shohei Ohtani’s 50/50 game.
"One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. Thus also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in perishability, it is raised in imperishability; lt is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; lt is sown a psychical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a psychical body, there is also a spiritual." -The Holy Apostle & Philosopher Paul's 1st Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 15 #SoulBecomingNous
It's gotten to the point, in my small circles at least, where any discussion of nuance around resurrection is heresy. It is almost like this: unless you espouse a zombie like rising of dead bodies from the dirt, you are anathema. I understand the fear: if one goes "too far", one begins to explore the idea that the gospels are entirely mythology. Then we get into a whole other realm of philosophical musing which is untenable to the established hierarchical evangelical system. Pastor's pay checks are on the line! :)
1 Corinthians 15 isn’t the easiest for people to understand, though I agree with DBH about the Resurrection. Paul’s metaphor of the dead seed producing a living tree is bad biology - but it’s a metaphor that can be understood in a historical perspective. All of Paul’s terms - flesh, blood, soul, spirit, etc. - had different shades of meaning in those days. And spirit had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, which was a theology later overlaid on Early Christianity. The Greek word for spirit can be translated in various ways, but the Greek never capitalizes “spirit.” That was done by later translators. Another historical issue that is common knowledge to New Testament scholars is that Paul wrote before the authors of the Gospels. Then Mark was the first gospel, then Matthew and Luke, then John. Paul’s theology has priority in my view. Using Luke to question something in Paul, for instance, is a misunderstanding of the New Testament. Unless you’re a literalist, in which case, carry on. What worries me about DBH are the room dividers behind him. Maybe he’s Satan himself and hidden behind him are the wailing souls suffering hellfire for eternity. You never know 🤷♂️
Im genuinely curious, if scripture says flesh and blood can not inherent the kingdom that doesn't mean flesh and blood won't be in the garden forever. It just means something higher than us got us there. If I'm missing something, I'm open.
@@chikkipopYour own comments couldn’t have better illustrated the apparent smallness of your own mind/thinking in this regard… and for that I thank you.
@@StreetsOfVancouverChannel You guys are so funny! Of course, if you had to get serious for a moment and actually offer something substantive, what are the chances you could do it? 😎
I guess I'm a simpleton. I take Paul to be a Jewish thinker who really believes that the fallen human body will be raised from the dead without ascending into the heavenly places. The *spirit* words in I Corinthians 15 refer to the Holy Spirit, so the adjectival form means "Spiritual," i.e., having to do with the Holy Spirit.
I look at it like dimensions. A 5th dimensional being can see the dimensions below it. Depth, width etc. this would mean a body from above or a higher plane e.g. an angel can reach to our plane of existence. Because it originates from a higher form. The body cannot make it to that place, unless it becomes spiritual e.g. Christ , God. Which all things are made possible through. Just my 2 cents
@@gfujigo Discussion of the fine points of an ancient myth as though it were of the utmost importance -- or any importance at all, other than as a past episode of human history -- is like participating in a detailed deconstruction of "fairyology". Maybe the mental gymnastics are in some way beneficial, but isn't there a more useful topic for the exercise?
@@chikkipop I see. The fact is God exists. Also, the fact is the evidence is clear that Jesus lived, died and that God raised him from the dead. Why do you think the accounts of Jesus are myth?
@gfujigo *"The fact is God exists."* So this unseen, undetectable "god" exists, and you know this because men said so thousands of years ago (when numerous gods were said to exist), yet no one has won a Nobel Prize for such an incredible discovery? *"Also, the fact is the evidence is clear that Jesus lived, died and that God raised him from the dead."* Right, because men said so thousands of years ago. *"Why do you think the accounts of Jesus are myth"* I have a much better question: Why in the world would anyone believe otherwise?!
“If the physical eye looks upon a physical body, what it sees is the mineral part that fills the physical body, not the physical body itself” - Rudolf Steiner (October 10, 1911)
I much prefer NT Wright's explanation in "Resurrection of the Son of God" Bentley Hart just looks like he is dodging the question. Paul makes it clear that our flesh and body bodies are like a SEED of the resurrection body. That is the point it's a renewing of this creation .. it's continuity . Calling questioners "simpltons " is just not answering something he knows is in the creed . We believe in the resurrection of the body". If you cannot believe the body is raised, you cannot believe Christ body was raised . 1 Corinthians 15. Didn't he read that part?
@@GregoryJamesPetersenyes I listened. It seems as if he doesn't make the necessary connection between this body and the resurrection. He makes something clear in Paul obtuse . He is denying what supposed "simpletons" believe. It's a scholarly technique to seem like they agree but in fact denying what is plain . He is very eloquent
@@Liminalplace1 What then does Paul mean by, "We shall all be changed?" Our bodies will obviously resemble the past as Jesus body did, but it will also be something more and other than. Hart literally said that Paul's category of 'Spiritual body' does not negate any type of embodiment. We just don't know what that will be. Just as Paul says, one glory of a star is different from another glory...how can we speculate on what the resurrection will be, except for very ambiguous terms?
@@hexahexametermeter "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, IT is raised imperishable; 43 IT is sown in dishonor, IT is raised in glory; IT is sown in weakness, IT is raised in power; 44 IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body" its extremely clear that "IT" is the same body. Just a glorified body of what we have now, "changed" from the natural body into a spiritual body....but it's the same body and same person. No speculation is needed as Jesus was himself raised and his tomb was empty.. it was the same body. To think otherwise is just a denial of the resurrection of the body, regardless of the scholarly rhetoric used. The reason he is questioned is because he attempts to dodge the simple plain reading.
@@Liminalplace1we have to define spirit. To me it is simply that which is outside, above or higher than this world. While the spirit can reach us, we can’t perceive it through all our senses. But it is there like energy and air. For Jesus body to be raised , it would require a spirit to bring back a body absent of mind and life. As his spirit left, it then came back to prove that death can be conquered by God.
Paul appears to use the term "flesh and blood" as a way of describing our mortality, rather than a metaphor for our physical body: "50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. 55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". 1 Corinthians 15:50-57
It’s certainly deep, but I think the consternation over this teaching reveals an insecurity over truth relating to pride. Those who meekly walk end up with the good, while those who run to power lose, exactly the opposite of what the world seems to think.
@@williamoarlock8634 hm, even more reductionist answers than religion is often accused of providing. For many of us, a hard, full life and introspection taught us the truth of christianity more than scripture did
Eh. This is the problem with Bentley Hart. He comes up with these hyperbolic statements with no specificity (“any good New Testament scholar”), doesn’t quote anyone, and then ignores basic facts like the fact that the word used by Paul doesn’t mean the body is made up of spirit, but rather that it’s the spirit that empowers the body… and then he tops it off by insulting anyone who disagrees with him, calling them simpletons. He thinks he’s way smarter than he actually is and I don’t really care for his brand of theology / philosophy / exegesis / whatever it is that he thinks he’s doing.
I wonder if Hart ever entertained the thought that the natural body is speaking metaphorically of the body of the first Adam (aka old covenant Israel) and that the spiritual body metaphorically pertains to the body of Christ (aka new covenant body of the second Adam). All of humanity is part of this new spiritual body.
I have always had trouble with the resurrection stories in Christian theology. The hoops you have to jump through in order to make sense just … do not make sense to me. I am happy to be a “simpleton”. Flesh and blood. Spirit but not spirit. A pneumatic body… no. It sound like the most baroque excesses of Mahayana Buddhism to me. Nonetheless, I love DB Hart’s fiction and am delighted to subsidize his continued and treasured existence. ❤
The Resurrection Body won't be ONLY Flesh and Blood not that there would be no Flesh and Blood. The Spiritual is Added to the Bodily it doesn't replace it. God does not Transcend Corporeality in The Bible, that's Platonist Heresy.
Never happened. Bible is contrdictory on who oiled jesus up after death. Thre diffrent places claimed to be the tomb. Contradictory on who found the tomb empty.
I don't think those are contradictions. But even if I grant that they are, I really dont even see a problem with that. Even if they are simply human documents with some testimonial mistakes, it really doesn't change a thing for me.
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Wasn't Paul secretly working for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original Roman Catholic Saints' members of the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original symbols used by the earliest Christians identical to those of the Flavian Dynasty? And isn’t one of the earliest iconographic symbols for Christianity, located in a catacomb, under the city of Rome, which was owned by a Flavian Princess? Weren't all of the original Jesus cult texts produced under the oversight of the Flavian Dynasty? Didn't the Flavian Dynasty posses the only remaining copy of the Hebrew Tanakh other than the Greek Septuagint translation? Isn't there Flavian typology in the Gospels? Weren't the canonical texts all back dated like the historical fiction of Gone With The Wind? Wasn't Emperor Vespasian known as the Jewish Messiah? Wasn’t Pope Clement of Rome a Flavian? Wasn't Josephus a temple whore for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't the Flavian’s, as well as Paul, descended from King Herod? There was no separation of Church and State in the Roman Empire. And Christianity is clearly a Greco-Roman hybrid form of Judaism created by the Flavian Dynasty. As an attempt to adapt, pacify, and integrate the rebellious and defiant Jews into the rest of the Greco-Roman Empire. Just like the Greeks created Hermes Trismegistus to integrate Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology.Then finally Neo-Flavian Constantine chose the Flavian family religion to be the official religion of the entire Roman Empire. In order to consolidate power in his fractured Empire. And then Eusebius edited and rewrote the history of the previous 3OO years. Destroying all contradictory evidence. Such as all of the non-canonical Jesus cult texts. It isn't history it is all simply Greco-Roman mythopoetic literature. Today it is known as Historical Fiction. “What profit hath not this fable of Christ brought us.” Pope Leo X 💙
It's not "the" reserrection since there are many dying rising God's in history. Osiris was still being worshipped as Christianity started. Liming information is a key brainwashing tool.
I absolutely love what Hart says about the resurrection of our bodies - it has helped me with a lot of the trauma I have dealt with in life from being violated and sexually abused. Knowing that this abused fleshly body is not what I will have to carry into eternity, gives me hope and healing. Living in this abused body has been nothing but deep burden, shame and pain. That God will allow me to shed this damaged body and replace it with a powerful, incorruptible and glorified "spiritual body" - spiritually embodied like something of angels, gives me reason to keep living. I wish more Christians would speak like Hart does on these matters.
@@williamoarlock8634 i dont care for your opinion or lack of empathy to those who have been abused. I feel very sorry for you though
@@dystopian-futureIt sucks seeing that a-hole reply that. I’m glad you find comfort in the transformation of our bodies upon being resurrected.
@@dystopian-futureI’m sorry that that had happened to you. Indeed, God promises to make all things new.
Hart is so right here. Our bodies are tied to mortality and death. For us to be made anew, to be transformed and fully healed, we need to be brought into eternal life in some other way, a way unbound by death.
As for @william’s comment, the best you can do is pity him. He lacks the caring and concern and love of the Father and he’s less because of that. He is drawn further away from the divine. He has been damaged and corrupted in some way.
He too, at some point, will be healed and restored and be made new. Let’s pray he chooses love and goodness and kindness sooner to share in God’s loving ways with his fellow men/women.
these physical bodies of ours are disgusting burdens if they are anything at all. i don't understand why anyone in their right mind would even desire to carry this corrupted, broken, fundamentally imperfect vessel into a place which is to be perfect and pure. The physical body, as we are experiencing it in this fallen world, and the heavenly realm are simply incompatible with each other.
@@gumis123PL What’s disgusting, is your attitude about bodies, if you’re a Christian, you’re surely incorrect to have such a anti-material view. And the “heavenly realm” isn’t the fate of those who trust in Christ, it’s a renewed Earth, and body, that’s in harmony and Union with Heaven and or God.
Thank you Dr. Hart, that is exactly my understanding. Our resurrection body is an actual physical body that is constructed, for lack of a better word, of incorruptible spiritual matter. Hence we have an actual physical body that is immortal like Christ.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 You have a great imagination! However, I think you should occasionally spend some time reading nonfiction. While you're here, deepening your understanding of the real world is a healthy and productive use of your time.
Excellent clarity of thought
DBH is an absolute treasure for EO in particular and Christianity at large in general.
A universalist being a treasure for EO?
Notwithstanding any insight he may have had, no.
DBH is the worst evangelist you could possibly imagine; arrogant, nasty, inhospitable, insulting, a suspect faculty of reason, and a piss-poor writer to boot.
@@Cyrus_II This whole reactionary thing is so lame.
@@Cyrus_IIuniversalism is the only sane position, but pls feel free to keep believing in disgusting horrors
@@ericprinzing1600go touch some grass pls, you come off like a bitter ex, but in this case he doesnt even know who you are
and its clear you arent really very familiar with him either
The physicality of Christ’s Resurrection, and our future Resurrection, is severely important to the promises of the New Testament. Paul, particularly in 1 Corinthians 15, outlines a stark contrast between our current corruptible bodies and our future incorruptible bodies. The Gospel accounts, Luke and John primarily, go out of their way to depict the physicality of Christ’s Resurrection, which is the firstfruits of our own Resurrection. This is important: the Christian hope has never been that our disembodied souls will go to heaven, but rather that this world and our own individual bodies will be renewed, transformed into an incorruptible state, and heaven and earth will be one.
Amen to that, Gnosticism is a heresy that insults God’s creativity, the denial of the physical being good and God goal for humanity is just that Gnostic nonsense.
Bentley's talking bollocks?
@@ShawHortonMusic Bizarre. Don't you have anything better to do with your limited time here, like maybe learning about the real world? Do you really want to spend it immersed in the ancient equivalent of a superhero comic book?
It is clear from Paul's writing that the hope and salvation that he was anticipating was the transformation of his body.
Paul's 'writing' is as clear as that of any other raving fanatic.
@@williamoarlock8634 Lol, I guess you're not a fan!? I'm not always keen on him myself.
@@williamoarlock8634 Fair enough.
Paul's writing is nothing like yours, morlock. Your ravings are quite exceptional.
@@hexahexametermeter How is pointing out Christianity's basic hypocrisy of having two masters (Jesus and Paul) 'raving'?
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)
"Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' ” (John 20:27)
~
The Luke verse depicts Jesus appearing to his disciples and stating "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” The verse in John's Gospel depicts Jesus REappearing to the disciples eight days after Thomas had stated, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” Jesus said to Thomas, "“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Philippians 2 teaches us that "Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name..." Here, Paul reveals to us that there was a post-death-and-resurrection exaltation of the Son of God. One could even argue, based on Philippians 2, that it was a return to his former glory. . . But back to Thomas and the disciples. Those two accounts, Luke 24:39 and John 20:27, help us see that even though Jesus Christ overcame death, he still possessed (or chose to possess in that instance) physical characteristics (not a mortal physicality, but an immortal one): He let them touch his wounds (which meant it was the same body that had bled and died), he let them know that he still possessed flesh and bone(s), AND he asked for something to eat in order to prove that his body was very much human. An ethereal spirit body need not eat, but a gloried human body can. Does that mean one HAS to eat, or do any number of things we generally do in our earthly bodies upon having been glorified? No, but perhaps the option to do certain physical things will be available. We do not actually acquire a new body when we are resurrected. Paul makes it clear that we do not surrender a deathly mortal body in exchange for another, but rather that this very body we possess shall undergo a metamorphosis: "...the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' ” (1 Corinthians 15:52b-54)
Hart's point in this video is that spiritual embodiment for Paul was clearly *far more substantial* than fleshly embodiment (see link to "The Spiritual Was More Substantial Than the Material for the Ancients" by Hart below). So the common experience of Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection with a glorified and transfigured body (which Hart is explicitly affirming here) was simply described and conceptualized in various ways and with various kinds of language. For my own part, it is obvious that, despite the contrasting language, Paul and Luke are both saying that the resurrection body is more substantial. Luke is contrasting the substantial resurrection body as something fleshly with something ghostly and insubstantial while Paul does exactly the same thing by saying that only a spirit body is substantial enough to participate in eternal life. They use the terms flesh and spirit in opposite ways but to make a similar point overall. Paul is speaking in more technical metaphysical categories and terminology while the gospel author is using more popular meanings of words.
churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-spiritual-was-more-substantial-than-the-material-for-the-ancients/
Jesus and Paul - two masters contradicting each other.
Why such fascination with an ancient myth? It is bizarre, the lengths you folks will go.
@@chikkipopI’m Christian but even if I wasn’t, I would still be fascinated by it. It’s a 2000 year old faith with a wonderful mix of theology, tradition, and scripture. Why are people fascinated by Chinese myths, Greek myths, etc? Not saying Christianity is a myth, I believe it to be true, but your comment is needlessly dismissive. Human beings are fascinated by all sorts of things- and Christianity (even if you don’t believe it to be true) is fascinating. Not sure why you can’t understand that.
@countryboyred I don't care about what's "fascinating;" I care about what's true, and far too many people believe improbable stories about magical invisible father figures are true, apparently you included.
OF COURSE I am dismissive! When people prefer ancient stories over learning about the real world, we all pay a price for their ignorance.
I think it’s fair to say that when Christ rose He didn’t necessarily have a functioning kidney, liver, heart, etc. He certainly didn’t have the same sort of corruptable body that we have presently.
Agreed 💯
Jesus ate food post-resurrection.
Or he never existed at all.
@@Triumph_of_the_Sky He also walked through doors and teleported. I think it’s safe to say the resurrected body will be able to do all sorts of things the body of flesh cannot do. And I suspect eating without need of sustenance, nor utilizing organs of digestion could be one.
@@sonyastockklausner62 Wasn’t Jesus able to do these things prior to His resurrection? John 8:59, Luke 4:28-30, Mark 6:48.
I don't see a contention. Flesh and blood achieve their destiny. The earthly and heavenly become one thing. we don't stop being human, we become the humans that we were meant to be.
If we were "meant to be" something, what agent meant for it to be, and how would you know about it?
@@chikkipop We were meant to be sons and daughters of God. Children of God do not die. However, we are born into a fallen state. Our Lord Jesus restores us. He gives us the “power to become children of God” once again (john1:12). This happens through resurrection, where our mortality puts on immortality (1Cor. 15:53).
@@byzantinedeacon But I asked how you knew we were "meant to be" anything. All you've done is repeat the claim.
What is a "god" and how do you know about it? Also, why does your comment appear to be a recitation of common claims among a select group of people, complete with links to a very particular source, all of it separate from the general population and requiring a particular identity? Are you aware of the concept of *indoctrination,* and how it impacts people who are taught to believe things at an early age, after which they grow up thinking it is perfectly normal?
The goal of the questioner is to find out why extraordinary claims are being made in so casual a way as to simply assume they're true, when their truth would be an astounding discovery that people outside of the select group would most assuredly want to hear all about.
@@williamoarlock8634 not ashamed
The power of inner imagination is deeply atrophied in most people today. Hence, the possibility of a “physical” body being immaterial and not grossly material is literally inconceivable to them.
Too often, people are unwilling to concede the limitations of their understanding, thereby rejecting all that lies outside the bubble of their supposed, "comprehensive" knowledge. The song of so many wrongs is titled Pride, particularly among those oblivious to it's presence in them.
Well, the Christian god hates imagination hence 'every thought captive to Christ'.
Of course there are also the constraints of the laws of physics.
@@chikkipop Huh? People who adhere to "science" are ignorant of it's intrinsic naivete. "Physics" is only a summation of our current understanding, which is always changing. It is not only currently limited in regard to comprehensive knowledge, but will always be secondary until it reaches that full comprehension, which will never happen because it is, in effect, infinite.Therefore, to put full trust in "science" is to place full trust in diminished understanding. Great logic and incredibly stupid! Next!!!
@@williamoarlock8634 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Taking every thought captive to Christ is to take every thought captive to the truth. The inverse would be to not do so, therefore your thoughts are captive to the lie, which is pretty stupid and seems to be the general responsive consensus of modern society. That's a dead end to nowhereville. Good luck with that.
It’s Friday, September 20th, 2024 as I write this. When I saw DBH in my TH-cam feed, I assumed it was going to be him talking about Shohei Ohtani’s 50/50 game.
I am sure he will as soon as he feels better.
"One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. Thus also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in perishability, it is raised in imperishability; lt is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; lt is sown a psychical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a psychical body, there is also a spiritual." -The Holy Apostle & Philosopher Paul's 1st Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 15 #SoulBecomingNous
It's gotten to the point, in my small circles at least, where any discussion of nuance around resurrection is heresy. It is almost like this: unless you espouse a zombie like rising of dead bodies from the dirt, you are anathema.
I understand the fear: if one goes "too far", one begins to explore the idea that the gospels are entirely mythology. Then we get into a whole other realm of philosophical musing which is untenable to the established hierarchical evangelical system. Pastor's pay checks are on the line! :)
1 Corinthians 15 isn’t the easiest for people to understand, though I agree with DBH about the Resurrection. Paul’s metaphor of the dead seed producing a living tree is bad biology - but it’s a metaphor that can be understood in a historical perspective. All of Paul’s terms - flesh, blood, soul, spirit, etc. - had different shades of meaning in those days. And spirit had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, which was a theology later overlaid on Early Christianity. The Greek word for spirit can be translated in various ways, but the Greek never capitalizes “spirit.” That was done by later translators. Another historical issue that is common knowledge to New Testament scholars is that Paul wrote before the authors of the Gospels. Then Mark was the first gospel, then Matthew and Luke, then John. Paul’s theology has priority in my view. Using Luke to question something in Paul, for instance, is a misunderstanding of the New Testament. Unless you’re a literalist, in which case, carry on. What worries me about DBH are the room dividers behind him. Maybe he’s Satan himself and hidden behind him are the wailing souls suffering hellfire for eternity. You never know 🤷♂️
Im genuinely curious, if scripture says flesh and blood can not inherent the kingdom that doesn't mean flesh and blood won't be in the garden forever. It just means something higher than us got us there. If I'm missing something, I'm open.
Paul’s language is clearly about the type of body that can sustain eternal life versus the kinds of bodies that cannot.
Flesh and bone.
@@jjhake As IF "eternal life" or another "type of body" are even remotely possible. Don't you folks have better things to spend your time on?
@@chikkipopYour own comments couldn’t have better illustrated the apparent smallness of your own mind/thinking in this regard… and for that I thank you.
@@StreetsOfVancouverChannel You guys are so funny! Of course, if you had to get serious for a moment and actually offer something substantive, what are the chances you could do it? 😎
What about Luke 24,39?
Awesome ❤❤❤❤❤
Can I get source on angelic bodies in early christian thought
I guess I'm a simpleton. I take Paul to be a Jewish thinker who really believes that the fallen human body will be raised from the dead without ascending into the heavenly places. The *spirit* words in I Corinthians 15 refer to the Holy Spirit, so the adjectival form means "Spiritual," i.e., having to do with the Holy Spirit.
I look at it like dimensions. A 5th dimensional being can see the dimensions below it. Depth, width etc. this would mean a body from above or a higher plane e.g. an angel can reach to our plane of existence. Because it originates from a higher form. The body cannot make it to that place, unless it becomes spiritual e.g. Christ , God. Which all things are made possible through. Just my 2 cents
"What you sow does not come to life unless it dies." Pail doesnt appear to understand how seeds work.
You don't appear to know how metaphors work
You don't appear to know how metaphor works.
@@grantbartley483hah. I said the same thing as your comment without looking!
@@js1817 You must have a great mind too
DBH holding court.
And making an utter fool of himself.
@@chikkipop How so? 🤔
@@gfujigo Discussion of the fine points of an ancient myth as though it were of the utmost importance -- or any importance at all, other than as a past episode of human history -- is like participating in a detailed deconstruction of "fairyology". Maybe the mental gymnastics are in some way beneficial, but isn't there a more useful topic for the exercise?
@@chikkipop I see. The fact is God exists. Also, the fact is the evidence is clear that Jesus lived, died and that God raised him from the dead.
Why do you think the accounts of Jesus are myth?
@gfujigo *"The fact is God exists."*
So this unseen, undetectable "god" exists, and you know this because men said so thousands of years ago (when numerous gods were said to exist), yet no one has won a Nobel Prize for such an incredible discovery?
*"Also, the fact is the evidence is clear that Jesus lived, died and that God raised him from the dead."*
Right, because men said so thousands of years ago.
*"Why do you think the accounts of Jesus are myth"*
I have a much better question: Why in the world would anyone believe otherwise?!
DBH additionally qualifies/informs his perspective here: th-cam.com/video/q9zsiAhxgdo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=RHcs52Uxn1Dc9gXF
I AM A SIMPLETON
💎
“If the physical eye looks upon a physical body, what it sees is the mineral part that fills the physical body, not the physical body itself” - Rudolf Steiner (October 10, 1911)
I much prefer NT Wright's explanation in "Resurrection of the Son of God"
Bentley Hart just looks like he is dodging the question. Paul makes it clear that our flesh and body bodies are like a SEED of the resurrection body. That is the point it's a renewing of this creation .. it's continuity .
Calling questioners "simpltons " is just not answering something he knows is in the creed .
We believe in the resurrection of the body".
If you cannot believe the body is raised, you cannot believe Christ body was raised . 1 Corinthians 15.
Didn't he read that part?
Did you not actually listen to his remarks? He affirms the resurrection of the body.
@@GregoryJamesPetersenyes I listened. It seems as if he doesn't make the necessary connection between this body and the resurrection. He makes something clear in Paul obtuse . He is denying what supposed "simpletons" believe. It's a scholarly technique to seem like they agree but in fact denying what is plain . He is very eloquent
@@Liminalplace1 What then does Paul mean by, "We shall all be changed?" Our bodies will obviously resemble the past as Jesus body did, but it will also be something more and other than. Hart literally said that Paul's category of 'Spiritual body' does not negate any type of embodiment. We just don't know what that will be. Just as Paul says, one glory of a star is different from another glory...how can we speculate on what the resurrection will be, except for very ambiguous terms?
@@hexahexametermeter "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, IT is raised imperishable; 43 IT is sown in dishonor, IT is raised in glory; IT is sown in weakness, IT is raised in power; 44 IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body" its extremely clear that "IT" is the same body. Just a glorified body of what we have now, "changed" from the natural body into a spiritual body....but it's the same body and same person. No speculation is needed as Jesus was himself raised and his tomb was empty.. it was the same body. To think otherwise is just a denial of the resurrection of the body, regardless of the scholarly rhetoric used. The reason he is questioned is because he attempts to dodge the simple plain reading.
@@Liminalplace1we have to define spirit. To me it is simply that which is outside, above or higher than this world. While the spirit can reach us, we can’t perceive it through all our senses. But it is there like energy and air. For Jesus body to be raised , it would require a spirit to bring back a body absent of mind and life. As his spirit left, it then came back to prove that death can be conquered by God.
Paul appears to use the term "flesh and blood" as a way of describing our mortality, rather than a metaphor for our physical body:
"50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. 55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ".
1 Corinthians 15:50-57
People don't listen
Could 'the meek shall inherit the world' have a nuanced meaning since as christians we're not meant to be of this world?
It’s certainly deep, but I think the consternation over this teaching reveals an insecurity over truth relating to pride. Those who meekly walk end up with the good, while those who run to power lose, exactly the opposite of what the world seems to think.
Dwelling in franchise fantasy in opposition to 'the world' (reality).
@@williamoarlock8634 franchise fantasy?
@@Roman-Pregolin Jesus and the 'New Testament' characters are like Marvel superheroes. They don't exist.
@@williamoarlock8634 hm, even more reductionist answers than religion is often accused of providing. For many of us, a hard, full life and introspection taught us the truth of christianity more than scripture did
Nope
On the Monday after Easter either there was a dead corpse, or there was not..
Eh. This is the problem with Bentley Hart. He comes up with these hyperbolic statements with no specificity (“any good New Testament scholar”), doesn’t quote anyone, and then ignores basic facts like the fact that the word used by Paul doesn’t mean the body is made up of spirit, but rather that it’s the spirit that empowers the body… and then he tops it off by insulting anyone who disagrees with him, calling them simpletons. He thinks he’s way smarter than he actually is and I don’t really care for his brand of theology / philosophy / exegesis / whatever it is that he thinks he’s doing.
I wonder if Hart ever entertained the thought that the natural body is speaking metaphorically of the body of the first Adam (aka old covenant Israel) and that the spiritual body metaphorically pertains to the body of Christ (aka new covenant body of the second Adam). All of humanity is part of this new spiritual body.
I have always had trouble with the resurrection stories in Christian theology. The hoops you have to jump through in order to make sense just … do not make sense to me. I am happy to be a “simpleton”. Flesh and blood. Spirit but not spirit. A pneumatic body… no. It sound like the most baroque excesses of Mahayana Buddhism to me. Nonetheless, I love DB Hart’s fiction and am delighted to subsidize his continued and treasured existence. ❤
The Resurrection Body won't be ONLY Flesh and Blood not that there would be no Flesh and Blood. The Spiritual is Added to the Bodily it doesn't replace it.
God does not Transcend Corporeality in The Bible, that's Platonist Heresy.
DBH = Trump with a thesaurus. Refuses to be wrong, and hurls insults at anyone who challenges him or his ideas.
LMAO
@crd9191
DBH dealt with the substance of the argument, you- not so much.
@@christianuniversalist I’m sympathetic to his position, so I don’t think he is mistaken. He doesnt, however, handle disagreement well
“Trump with a thesaurus” is the best description I’ve ever heard of DBH.
Never happened. Bible is contrdictory on who oiled jesus up after death. Thre diffrent places claimed to be the tomb. Contradictory on who found the tomb empty.
I don't think those are contradictions. But even if I grant that they are, I really dont even see a problem with that. Even if they are simply human documents with some testimonial mistakes, it really doesn't change a thing for me.
Wasn't Paul secretly working for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original Roman Catholic Saints' members of the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original symbols used by the earliest Christians identical to those of the Flavian Dynasty? And isn’t one of the earliest iconographic symbols for Christianity, located in a catacomb, under the city of Rome, which was owned by a Flavian Princess?
Weren't all of the original Jesus cult texts produced under the oversight of the Flavian Dynasty? Didn't the Flavian Dynasty posses the only remaining copy of the Hebrew Tanakh other than the Greek Septuagint translation? Isn't there Flavian typology in the Gospels? Weren't the canonical texts all back dated like the historical fiction of Gone With The Wind? Wasn't Emperor Vespasian known as the Jewish Messiah? Wasn’t Pope Clement of Rome a Flavian? Wasn't Josephus a temple whore for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't the Flavian’s, as well as Paul, descended from King Herod?
There was no separation of Church and State in the Roman Empire. And Christianity is clearly a Greco-Roman hybrid form of Judaism created by the Flavian Dynasty. As an attempt to adapt, pacify, and integrate the rebellious and defiant Jews into the rest of the Greco-Roman Empire. Just like the Greeks created Hermes Trismegistus to integrate Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology.Then finally Neo-Flavian Constantine chose the Flavian family religion to be the official religion of the entire Roman Empire. In order to consolidate power in his fractured Empire. And then Eusebius edited and rewrote the history of the previous 3OO years. Destroying all contradictory evidence. Such as all of the non-canonical Jesus cult texts. It isn't history it is all simply Greco-Roman mythopoetic literature. Today it is known as Historical Fiction.
“What profit hath not this fable of Christ brought us.”
Pope Leo X 💙
It's not "the" reserrection since there are many dying rising God's in history. Osiris was still being worshipped as Christianity started. Liming information is a key brainwashing tool.