I'm actually sitting here in the arcade I work at and I'm literally LOOKING at the thing in your video thumbnail that's sitting on the table next to me lol!
Love the game. Got one in the basement. Drove 600 miles one way to get it. It didn’t work. Works now but needs another going through on the electronics. Love what you do. Keep it up.
@@LyonsArcade I hear that! After helping put BOTH daughters through college I was very clear to both, since their high school years, that when they get their real adult careers in order all I ask in return is a refurbed sweetA$$ players ‘78/‘79 KISS Bally table so that I have a chance to go to the next chapter of life with a smile on my face, still holding my Rock N Roll breath, but thank you, your recent videos made me smile and brought this NYC KiSS army fan much joy! You are a gifted craftsman and I thank you for the great content. Also tell it’s owner that it’s brilliant of him to let that table remain a player’s beater pin for years of enjoyment; you greatly extended its quality playable lifetime!!
I think the most well known example of wabisabi is, where the Japanese take a broken old ricebowl put it back together and put an emphasis on the broken seams with gold inlays on them. They do not only accept imperfections, they think the ricebowl gets more beautiful with them and has more character and "life"; a story to tell.
When you fix a game for someone, have you thought about asking them if they were interested in doing the play-test for your video? It would be cool to hear their commentary on how much better it looks and works. This one has definitely come a long way from where it started.
The debouncing can be done in the software in the processor. That's why it needs the capacitor to extend the pulse on quick strikes. That said, the processors in these are likely too slow to require that software, so capacitor is needed for the same reason. You are absolutely right Ron 🙂.
Good morning Joe ( well it's afternoon were your at ). Repair video #7, wow time flies by when your learning something cool. Thanks for the great brain food videos and the work you do to bring them to use.
I used to do odd jobs at my local arcade back in the day. Used to work on their parking lot set up pinball machines and pool tables. And also electronic dart boards I didn't earn money because I wasn't employed there but they paid me in a lot of tokens.. Very fine memories but never got the work on the electronics which I've always wanted to learn. But never got the chance because they close down 3 weeks later which sucked. But did get to play the latest games that came out. Williams F14 tomcat fire millionaire. Gottlieb Monte Carlo. Atari road blaster.
Fascinating stuff.....that makes sense about the switches, it's not an issue with multiple readings of one switch resulting in multiple scores, as that would be a bounce issue the actual problem is missing the switch completely, proper brain food, I would imagine modern machines would have each switch generate an 'interrupt' that the CPU then goes and deals with, so I guess the older machines 'Poll' the switches one by one and can 'miss' from time to time and chucking in some capacitance here and there slows things up enough ( widens the pulse ) for the CPU to catch the event, just thinking out loud here and could be a mile off but I do enjoy learning about pinball, love this channel but you can count the times I've played pinball on one hand, no debounce and no microfarads needed here !....cheers.
I've seen the other related video and got to see the tour of your shop. A lot bigger than I thought. And more arcade pinball machines and jukeboxes. Looking forward to seeing those.
I understand where your customer is coming from, but the playfield would drive me nuts and I would have to do something with it. Nice Job Ron Keep Up The Great Work.
You du....hey wait, I have NO reason to say that, EVER. You're videos are so educational and helpful. I am a big fan of the actual knockers, especially on the EM machines. I really hate the virtual knockers on the modern Stern games. I typically turn those off. Thanks for making the videos. (Microfarad)
On making the signal wider, you'd do that on the board past the switch. So it holds onto the pulse. But across a switch would be for debouncing and for arc reduction. A capacitor on the board could work for debouncing. So 2 pulses could count as 1.
There's no bouncing problem though, the game never sees two pulses, it often though doesn't see 1 pulse if it's hit too fast. Thanks for watching PlumGurly!
For Bally coils the first letter A is the bobbin size and the second letter is the sleeve. So the difference between an AN and AR 26-1200 is just the sleeve which can be as subtle as the direction it is passes through.
A capacitor quickly stores a bit of energy and keeps the switch connected for a while. Once it runs out of energy it breaks the switch again. like a very tiny rechargable battery...
12:20 Those caps have been changed. The old original caps are round ceramic capacitors and usually a dull orange or pale green color. Those red ones are modern multi-layer ceramic (MLCC) capacitors or polymer capacitors. Either way, yeah, get rid of all the old switch caps and replace with modern caps and most switch faults will go away. When I first got my Bally Eight Ball Champ most of the switches were shorted and I solved it quickly by cutting them off. But obviously I wasn't getting the points so I replaced them with modern 0.047 MLCC caps and all my troubles were solved.
Debouncing and 'pulse stretching' can sometimes be the same thing. If a switch closes for a short time but does not close 'cleanly' and instead bounces then you will get a series of very short pulses instead of one slightly longer one. A capacitor across the switch will turn the series of short switch bounces into a single longer pulse which the processor can then 'see' so you may both be correct.
Both of you are right about the purpose of the caps they are there for both reasons on one hand the a very quick hit might need a slightly longer pulse to register but if tue switch is bouncing it will smooth that out
@@LyonsArcade just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't/hasn't happened. You would have to do something a person would be hard pressed to do which is cause it to impact twice in an interview faster then you can move(milisecond). When these switches where newer and springier it was/is possible to have a situation where enough energy is imparted when a ball hits it to have them vibrate against each other at just the right moment (the proc is finishing its scan and it vibrates back to contact on the next scan operation.) You are correct in that its primary function is to keep that single alive just long enough for it to be there in between scans, doesn't preclude the second function they serve and was all to common back then they where used for which is debouncing.
The TIP102 is a compound transistor. Your readings are caused by only one of the internal elements failing. As for the knocker, it adds to the repertoire of pinball sounds. And it does that cheaply, no chime, no echo box, no bell, just an impact pad.
Again I'm no expert in old pinball technology, however, I can say capacitor debounce, is exactly as you described it, with Arduino anyways, we put a cap across to ensure the signal is clean for the microcontroller to register it. Perhaps you are more inclined to call it signal filtering, but, I think you and Matt and everyone else are all saying the same thing, just in different ways of explaining and understanding lol after, that bally uses a microcontroller which one could argue it's using the caps for debouncing. lol
I'm familiar with debouncing when it comes to computer keyboards. You use debouncing circuits so that when a key is pressed, it doesn't generate a thousand keypresses. This is because a simple SPST switch only knows on/off, and has no sense of how long the switch stays closed. If someone hits a key and very quickly lifts off the key, it may register just one keypress. On the other hand, for some people who hit the key and keep the key pressed for even a 1/2 second, the encoder will think there are multiple keypresses. So a debouncer will basically (I'm oversimplifying this) presume that as long as the key isn't re-opened (i.e. the person lifts the finger off the key) it will produce only one keystroke regardless of how long the key is pressed down. The only way I can see a debouncer being used in a pinball machine is if there is the chance that the ball hits a switch and the ball then just sits on the switch for X amount of time. But that'll never happen because of physics. So I'm with the narrator (don't know his name) in that the capacitor is on the switch more for keeping a charge on the switch long enough so that it gives the processor enough time to read the switch (which is why the 0.047 uF is so critical.) Maybe a more modern way around this is to use a latching circuit -- one where once the switch is closed, it'll latch until the processor clears the latch. Not sure if latches were around when these machines were made.
0:14 The Eight Ball next to the Kiss looks pretty nice and seems to be a new addition? Is that there for a repair or just another machine for sale that wasn't shown before?
Get an oscilloscope and compare the output of the capacitor.. your both right: it’s just the cpu is likely not fast enough (or coded not to) pickup the “double” bounce.. if the cpu was faster then yes, it would occur - but in this case as Ron says it simply makes sure it activates.
The caps "denounce" In this case they " stretch". The pulse train from a twanging switch contact. Making Avery short pulse long enough to register within ithe cpu Debouncing is an short hand. And has to be taken in context. Here it gives the CPU a better chance to see fast switches...in other cases caps are used to prevent multiple triggers being seen by the cpu
Explain to customer about replacing non-failed caps as: Replaced aging capacitors that aren’t broken is a preventative measure to improve customer overall satisfaction.
Bounce is more likely to occur in lightly sprung switches like computer keyboards or fire/flipper buttons. Software debounce is fairly simple - once the switch "off" condition occurs, ignore any switch "on" condition for 1-3 sample periods. Optionally you could also only accept a switch "on" state change if it persists for 2-3 sample periods. Likely a machine of this era doing it in software is running somewhere from 30 to 60 matrix scans per second. Some home computers of the era also did a software driven keyboard scan, e.g. Commodore 64 which did it at 60 Hz on a 1 MHz CPU which wasn't a huge overhead. The 6800 is slightly more powerful than a 6502 at the same clock speed so should be able to do 64 switches using an 8x8 matrix at a decent scan rate.
interesting about the capacitor on the switches to prolong the pulse. would you ever consider doing that on an EM that you couldn't get adjusted? I know you probably have never had that problem, but I have a grand prix and I can not seem to get the 10 pt relay and score reel EOS switch adjusted to where it reliably pulses the chime. works 100% with the finger test, but glancing quick blows by the ball don't seem to keep the switch active long enough. I may just try replacing the switches that are the biggest offenders. anyway just a thought i had as you were explaining that. Thanks!
That might work, not sure.... the chime should work everytime you get 10 points because the 10 point relay shouldn't drop out after the switch is released sounds like you understand how they work though if you're adjusting the EOS on the score reel.... I would make sure the hold switch on the 10pt relay (the one that holds it on when you hit a target) is adjusted pretty close, and here's the kicker: None of that will work right if ANY of the 10 point reels (on the 4 different players) aren't connecting right. So the switch pulls in the 10 point relay, which should hold itself on with a switch on itself, that has power through it, through an end of stroke switch on all 4 players. If any of them aren't connected, are broken, or dirty that hold switch on the 10 point relay won't hold in, so quick hits wont' always register (although usually they won't register the points either!). So I'd adjust the hold switch really close so it holds the relay in immediately, then check to make sure the 3rd player 10 point drum EOS switch isn't broken or something.
@@LyonsArcade awesome! Thanks. It’s my first attempt at messing with EM’s. I’ve been binge watching your videos for help. Got some time off soon and hoping to dive in and get this game up and working 100%. Its come a long way since I got it. Couldn’t have done it without your help.
Even though I put most of my tables on free play, I love having the knocker active. We have fun drinking rules when we play...so if you knock...you gotta do a shot!
It's both. Debouncing makes the pulse longer, long enough for the controller to read the pulse, and also keeps the switch from triggering multiple times in a short amount of time.
@@LyonsArcade The cap is technically just adding to the low-pass filter that is already on the board, and the low-pass filter on the board is a type of debouncing circuit with a low trigger time and a long release time. Removing the cap on the switch doesn't make it trigger multiple times because there is debouncing on the board already. So there are two problems solved by this circuit, the debouncing of the switch and the filtering needed so the MCU can catch the faster trigger cases. This implementation here just adds a capacitor across some of the switches to create a secondary low-pass filter to force the release time to take even longer so the MCU can catch even shorter burst trigger cases. This also has the effect of increasing the minimum time between two consecutive triggers.
26:55. From actionpinball.com's web page: "Prefix numbers on some coils (such as "AE", "SG", "SA", etc.) indicate the type of nylon bobbin and/or coil lug/diode orientation, or diode presence/absence, and are more of a cosmetic feature than functional value- different types like these are usually interchangeable. For example, an "AE" type coil will replace an "SG" or an "AN" coil in most all cases." I would add (as a guess) that it may also indicate a different type of sleeve used, such as kicker (flange flush against stop) or knocker (flange offset as sleeve does not butt against a coil stop).
JOE CLASSIC, be nice is MATT can make a theory video lesson on how pinball games switch matrix and lamp matrix systems work because I don't understand why they use those diodes because if you remove all the diodes in the switch and lamp matrix the Scan frequency will still Scan the Rows and the MPU will still Ground out the columns so the diodes have no purpose? it doesn't make sense to me. I think adding a capacitor across the switch is considered DeBouncing or an RC time delay which there is not Resistance so its just an C passive time delay. I have seen them used calling them passive Detectors using capacitors with Diodes to hold the voltage so the MPU can detect the pulse. I think the name is pulse detectors passive cap + diode.
For caps and switch scanning I don't believe time matters, as a guess. When the game powers on there is a chance a cap is charged, ignore that for just a bit. When the game scans the switches it tries to run a little current through the switch (right, like that's just how it works). That will charge all the caps, the key point is that it takes current(even if only a little) to charge the caps. The switches short across the cap at the speed of light the cap is emptied. Hours later, without being scanned, the cap is still empty. The little current it takes to charge the cap registers on the CPU. Normally when dealing with caps time is everything, but in this one instance I think it only a combination of the switch discharges and the current it takes to charge the cap.
38:08 If I had to replace a flipper bat with a different used one I would polish them with car polish and most of the yellowing would be removed, making both flippers look near enough the same, thus keeping the wabi-sabi gods at bay.
But with all the pinball and arcade machines being stored in the back. Does that mean when someone ready to buy one or two. Then you pull them out to fix them up? Just curious.
21:00. Seems like the spinner would need a capacitor based on your theory. It spins fast and wouldn’t register. Need to get an electrical engineer on to tell us the “real” reason. ;)
The way the spinner works is as it goes upside down, it pulls a switch closed, so it's actually closed for quite a bit as it flips around - longer pulse than just bouncing off a switch. Thank you for playing :)
Is there something really strange about pinball machine service that damages those ceramic disc capacitors? In my experience, they are among the most reliable electronic components out there. I think I have come across maybe 1 or 2 shorted ceramic disc caps in 40+ years of working on all kinds of electronics. The newer MLCC surface mount stuff isn't as reliable simply because of the small size/thinner dielectric, but those old school ceramic disc capacitors always seemed to last forever in TVs, radios, etc.
This particular use they're shorted often, usually several in a machine and several more missing because they were already pulled off by some operator when they shorted....
@@LyonsArcade Not doubting you at all, just seems really strange. What is the typical voltage rating used? Maybe failing from inductive kickback when switching relay and solenoid coils?
Wabi-sabi; If the world is imperfect and a tile is driving you crazy then you were crazy before the tile entered your life and the new imperfection in the world simply reminded you that the world is imperfect............ and you are crazy........... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... Like most people.
I've played this game so many hundreds of times I don't recall the gameplay sounds sounding like that. Can you adjust the gameplay sounds? Because I've never heard the gameplay sounds like that. I don't know if that's supposed to be the original gameplay sounds or not. Just my opinion.
There are pot adjustments for sound envelope and volume. You can make the notes as staccato as a machine gun, or never-ending until the next one overrides it.
it not my idea its from a docu on discovery channel about falsefing documents to give them an old look sorry i am not a native speaker just a german with a lot of curiosity
The knocker in that machine is a bit underwhelming. On most pinballs it bangs the side of the cab onto a metal plate and the end of the knocker is also metal. The plastic end seems to be a modification? They are normally metal on metal and give a loud 'crack!'
It uses a 6MHz 8035, which is plenty fast to sample the switches and toss a few commands at the sound chip. The issue is that few switches need to be sampled quickly. The flipper buttons are pressed a couple times a second maybe. The bumpers typically have their sensor pressed until the solenoid activates to throw the ball somewhere else. So a sample rate of, say, 10 times per second would seem to work well for most of the operations, and has the added benefit of debouncing without extra hardware or software--switches typically stabilize within a hundred ms. The spot targets, though, can be a slight issue. The ball isn't going to linger on them. Hence the capacitor to make the pulse last long enough to be detected.
and you can take that to the bank ,daddy, wwwoooaa. Time for some Spine on the Pine. Thanks for the great videos Brother , wwooaa. Ya I'm a Wrestling fan. Katie bar the door goodnight . LOL
If there's one thing I learned from KISS, it's that everyone loves good knockers.
Hey that knocker is one of my favourite parts of pinball, makes you feel like a pinball wizard... if only for a moment.
That's true :)
I'm actually sitting here in the arcade I work at and I'm literally LOOKING at the thing in your video thumbnail that's sitting on the table next to me lol!
hahaha it happens :) Gotta keep those coils cool :)
Got to agree with you, that is one cool back-glass! The running KISS lights absolutely take it to another level!!
They did such a great job! Thanks for watching Matt!
Wabi-sabi is the perfect way to describe this one. It’s character and history all shine through the wear and tear and it’s beautiful.
The eight ball looks nice too.
It was pretty sweet! Just sold it today.
Love the game. Got one in the basement. Drove 600 miles one way to get it. It didn’t work. Works now but needs another going through on the electronics. Love what you do. Keep it up.
Never heard "Shout it Out Loud?" Minus 1,000,000 points!
Beautiful workmanship on a highly sought after epic table…DEAR SANTA…I have been nice this year!!
Santa doesn't bring me stuff anymore :)
@@LyonsArcade I hear that! After helping put BOTH daughters through college I was very clear to both, since their high school years, that when they get their real adult careers in order all I ask in return is a refurbed sweetA$$ players ‘78/‘79 KISS Bally table so that I have a chance to go to the next chapter of life with a smile on my face, still holding my Rock N Roll breath, but thank you, your recent videos made me smile and brought this NYC KiSS army fan much joy! You are a gifted craftsman and I thank you for the great content.
Also tell it’s owner that it’s brilliant of him to let that table remain a player’s beater pin for years of enjoyment; you greatly extended its quality playable lifetime!!
I think the most well known example of wabisabi is, where the Japanese take a broken old ricebowl put it back together and put an emphasis on the broken seams with gold inlays on them. They do not only accept imperfections, they think the ricebowl gets more beautiful with them and has more character and "life"; a story to tell.
When you fix a game for someone, have you thought about asking them if they were interested in doing the play-test for your video? It would be cool to hear their commentary on how much better it looks and works. This one has definitely come a long way from where it started.
The debouncing can be done in the software in the processor. That's why it needs the capacitor to extend the pulse on quick strikes.
That said, the processors in these are likely too slow to require that software, so capacitor is needed for the same reason. You are absolutely right Ron 🙂.
A ha! I knew I had it figured out :) Thanks for watching Brendan, we were just fooling around, lol
Cant beat good knockers.
You know your good in playing with your balls when you can have the nockers
Without even watching the video, Absolutely!
Good morning Joe ( well it's afternoon were your at ). Repair video #7, wow time flies by when your learning something cool. Thanks for the great brain food videos and the work you do to bring them to use.
Thank you WackyWorldOfWindios!
"Good Heavens! What knockers!"
-- Gene Wilder, "Young Frankenstein"
The KISS logo looks awesome! Nice little rehab! Matt, I think Ron needs a little pally hug!
Don't give him any ideas!
Definitely fix the knocker!
Let's fix it!
loved hearing the knocker noise
Yeah they're pretty cool, good memories :) thanks for watching Scott!
Looks fantastic now compared to what it did. Gotta have a Knocker!
Even if I owned the game and had it on free play, I'd still want the knocker working for the overall experience and nostalgia. :)
Unless it’s a modern stern. They can shove that screech some where the sun doesn’t shine.
@@pauz2175 Good point.
I used to do odd jobs at my local arcade back in the day. Used to work on their parking lot set up pinball machines and pool tables.
And also electronic dart boards I didn't earn money because I wasn't employed there but they paid me in a lot of tokens..
Very fine memories but never got the work on the electronics which I've always wanted to learn.
But never got the chance because they close down 3 weeks later which sucked.
But did get to play the latest games that came out.
Williams F14 tomcat fire millionaire.
Gottlieb Monte Carlo.
Atari road blaster.
Fascinating stuff.....that makes sense about the switches, it's not an issue with multiple readings of one switch resulting in multiple scores, as that would be a bounce issue the actual problem is missing the switch completely, proper brain food, I would imagine modern machines would have each switch generate an 'interrupt' that the CPU then goes and deals with, so I guess the older machines 'Poll' the switches one by one and can 'miss' from time to time and chucking in some capacitance here and there slows things up enough ( widens the pulse ) for the CPU to catch the event, just thinking out loud here and could be a mile off but I do enjoy learning about pinball, love this channel but you can count the times I've played pinball on one hand, no debounce and no microfarads needed here !....cheers.
I've seen the other related video and got to see the tour of your shop.
A lot bigger than I thought. And more arcade pinball machines and jukeboxes.
Looking forward to seeing those.
I understand where your customer is coming from, but the playfield would drive me nuts and I would have to do something with it. Nice Job Ron Keep Up The Great Work.
Thanks Hopper! Different strokes for different folks, he can't help it you're picky :)
I have had to replace a lot of lamp sockets in old Bally’s. You think you’ve messed with them and they work and then they stop working again.
You du....hey wait, I have NO reason to say that, EVER. You're videos are so educational and helpful. I am a big fan of the actual knockers, especially on the EM machines. I really hate the virtual knockers on the modern Stern games. I typically turn those off. Thanks for making the videos. (Microfarad)
On making the signal wider, you'd do that on the board past the switch. So it holds onto the pulse. But across a switch would be for debouncing and for arc reduction.
A capacitor on the board could work for debouncing. So 2 pulses could count as 1.
There's no bouncing problem though, the game never sees two pulses, it often though doesn't see 1 pulse if it's hit too fast. Thanks for watching PlumGurly!
@@LyonsArcade -- Yeah, just thinking out loud. Have a nice day! I enjoy your videos immensely.
For Bally coils the first letter A is the bobbin size and the second letter is the sleeve. So the difference between an AN and AR 26-1200 is just the sleeve which can be as subtle as the direction it is passes through.
That makes sense, thank you Allan!
A capacitor quickly stores a bit of energy and keeps the switch connected for a while. Once it runs out of energy it breaks the switch again. like a very tiny rechargable battery...
That makes sense :)
Without even watching yet…. Yes you should!
Let's fix it!
12:20 Those caps have been changed. The old original caps are round ceramic capacitors and usually a dull orange or pale green color. Those red ones are modern multi-layer ceramic (MLCC) capacitors or polymer capacitors. Either way, yeah, get rid of all the old switch caps and replace with modern caps and most switch faults will go away. When I first got my Bally Eight Ball Champ most of the switches were shorted and I solved it quickly by cutting them off. But obviously I wasn't getting the points so I replaced them with modern 0.047 MLCC caps and all my troubles were solved.
Debouncing and 'pulse stretching' can sometimes be the same thing. If a switch closes for a short time but does not close 'cleanly' and instead bounces then you will get a series of very short pulses instead of one slightly longer one. A capacitor across the switch will turn the series of short switch bounces into a single longer pulse which the processor can then 'see' so you may both be correct.
I was trying to get Matt to give me that defense but he never thought of it :) Thanks for watching Jerry!
When testing the drop target switches start with #4 then work back to #1
That would work, another thing to remember :)
Both of you are right about the purpose of the caps they are there for both reasons on one hand the a very quick hit might need a slightly longer pulse to register but if tue switch is bouncing it will smooth that out
It never scores more than once though without the capacitor
@@LyonsArcade just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't/hasn't happened. You would have to do something a person would be hard pressed to do which is cause it to impact twice in an interview faster then you can move(milisecond).
When these switches where newer and springier it was/is possible to have a situation where enough energy is imparted when a ball hits it to have them vibrate against each other at just the right moment (the proc is finishing its scan and it vibrates back to contact on the next scan operation.) You are correct in that its primary function is to keep that single alive just long enough for it to be there in between scans, doesn't preclude the second function they serve and was all to common back then they where used for which is debouncing.
The TIP102 is a compound transistor. Your readings are caused by only one of the internal elements failing. As for the knocker, it adds to the repertoire of pinball sounds. And it does that cheaply, no chime, no echo box, no bell, just an impact pad.
Thanks Randy, that makes sense!
Again I'm no expert in old pinball technology, however, I can say capacitor debounce, is exactly as you described it, with Arduino anyways, we put a cap across to ensure the signal is clean for the microcontroller to register it. Perhaps you are more inclined to call it signal filtering, but, I think you and Matt and everyone else are all saying the same thing, just in different ways of explaining and understanding lol after, that bally uses a microcontroller which one could argue it's using the caps for debouncing. lol
I'm familiar with debouncing when it comes to computer keyboards. You use debouncing circuits so that when a key is pressed, it doesn't generate a thousand keypresses. This is because a simple SPST switch only knows on/off, and has no sense of how long the switch stays closed. If someone hits a key and very quickly lifts off the key, it may register just one keypress. On the other hand, for some people who hit the key and keep the key pressed for even a 1/2 second, the encoder will think there are multiple keypresses. So a debouncer will basically (I'm oversimplifying this) presume that as long as the key isn't re-opened (i.e. the person lifts the finger off the key) it will produce only one keystroke regardless of how long the key is pressed down. The only way I can see a debouncer being used in a pinball machine is if there is the chance that the ball hits a switch and the ball then just sits on the switch for X amount of time. But that'll never happen because of physics. So I'm with the narrator (don't know his name) in that the capacitor is on the switch more for keeping a charge on the switch long enough so that it gives the processor enough time to read the switch (which is why the 0.047 uF is so critical.) Maybe a more modern way around this is to use a latching circuit -- one where once the switch is closed, it'll latch until the processor clears the latch. Not sure if latches were around when these machines were made.
0:14 The Eight Ball next to the Kiss looks pretty nice and seems to be a new addition? Is that there for a repair or just another machine for sale that wasn't shown before?
Get an oscilloscope and compare the output of the capacitor.. your both right: it’s just the cpu is likely not fast enough (or coded not to) pickup the “double” bounce.. if the cpu was faster then yes, it would occur - but in this case as Ron says it simply makes sure it activates.
The caps "denounce"
In this case they " stretch". The pulse train from a twanging switch contact. Making Avery short pulse long enough to register within
ithe cpu
Debouncing is an short hand. And has to be taken in context. Here it gives the CPU a better chance to see fast switches...in other cases caps are used to prevent multiple triggers being seen by the cpu
I was just picking on Matt it's basically the same thing like you said Jason, it solves either problem...
Looks good!
Thanks Patrick for watching!
Explain to customer about replacing non-failed caps as: Replaced aging capacitors that aren’t broken is a preventative measure to improve customer overall satisfaction.
That's a good way to put it Diego!
Sound is set to chimes on the dip switches. Though the other sound choice isn't much better lol.
Bounce is more likely to occur in lightly sprung switches like computer keyboards or fire/flipper buttons. Software debounce is fairly simple - once the switch "off" condition occurs, ignore any switch "on" condition for 1-3 sample periods. Optionally you could also only accept a switch "on" state change if it persists for 2-3 sample periods. Likely a machine of this era doing it in software is running somewhere from 30 to 60 matrix scans per second. Some home computers of the era also did a software driven keyboard scan, e.g. Commodore 64 which did it at 60 Hz on a 1 MHz CPU which wasn't a huge overhead. The 6800 is slightly more powerful than a 6502 at the same clock speed so should be able to do 64 switches using an 8x8 matrix at a decent scan rate.
33:49 They are called 'grub screws'
Hope you do. Have to fix the knocker.
We fixed it!
interesting about the capacitor on the switches to prolong the pulse. would you ever consider doing that on an EM that you couldn't get adjusted? I know you probably have never had that problem, but I have a grand prix and I can not seem to get the 10 pt relay and score reel EOS switch adjusted to where it reliably pulses the chime. works 100% with the finger test, but glancing quick blows by the ball don't seem to keep the switch active long enough. I may just try replacing the switches that are the biggest offenders. anyway just a thought i had as you were explaining that. Thanks!
That might work, not sure.... the chime should work everytime you get 10 points because the 10 point relay shouldn't drop out after the switch is released sounds like you understand how they work though if you're adjusting the EOS on the score reel.... I would make sure the hold switch on the 10pt relay (the one that holds it on when you hit a target) is adjusted pretty close, and here's the kicker: None of that will work right if ANY of the 10 point reels (on the 4 different players) aren't connecting right. So the switch pulls in the 10 point relay, which should hold itself on with a switch on itself, that has power through it, through an end of stroke switch on all 4 players. If any of them aren't connected, are broken, or dirty that hold switch on the 10 point relay won't hold in, so quick hits wont' always register (although usually they won't register the points either!).
So I'd adjust the hold switch really close so it holds the relay in immediately, then check to make sure the 3rd player 10 point drum EOS switch isn't broken or something.
@@LyonsArcade awesome! Thanks. It’s my first attempt at messing with EM’s. I’ve been binge watching your videos for help. Got some time off soon and hoping to dive in and get this game up and working 100%. Its come a long way since I got it. Couldn’t have done it without your help.
Even though I put most of my tables on free play, I love having the knocker active. We have fun drinking rules when we play...so if you knock...you gotta do a shot!
Never knock the knocker! That's the best part of any game. Not that I ever heard that many ; (
They're rare to get :)
I got a fix for that one tile is to randomly replace multiple tiles through out the floor
It's both. Debouncing makes the pulse longer, long enough for the controller to read the pulse, and also keeps the switch from triggering multiple times in a short amount of time.
Except when you take the cap off, it never triggers multiple times in a short amount of time, thank you for playing
@@LyonsArcade The cap is technically just adding to the low-pass filter that is already on the board, and the low-pass filter on the board is a type of debouncing circuit with a low trigger time and a long release time. Removing the cap on the switch doesn't make it trigger multiple times because there is debouncing on the board already. So there are two problems solved by this circuit, the debouncing of the switch and the filtering needed so the MCU can catch the faster trigger cases. This implementation here just adds a capacitor across some of the switches to create a secondary low-pass filter to force the release time to take even longer so the MCU can catch even shorter burst trigger cases. This also has the effect of increasing the minimum time between two consecutive triggers.
Did any Pinball machines use the INTEL 8086 or for that matter a MC68000 as the CPU.
a good policy is to always check out them knockers.
26:55. From actionpinball.com's web page: "Prefix numbers on some coils (such as
"AE", "SG", "SA", etc.) indicate the type of nylon bobbin and/or coil
lug/diode orientation, or diode presence/absence, and are more of a cosmetic
feature than functional value- different types like these are usually
interchangeable. For example, an "AE" type coil will replace an "SG" or an
"AN" coil in most all cases."
I would add (as a guess) that it may also indicate a different type of
sleeve used, such as kicker (flange flush against stop) or knocker (flange
offset as sleeve does not butt against a coil stop).
JOE CLASSIC, be nice is MATT can make a theory video lesson on how pinball games switch matrix and lamp matrix systems work because I don't understand why they use those diodes because if you remove all the diodes in the switch and lamp matrix the Scan frequency will still Scan the Rows and the MPU will still Ground out the columns so the diodes have no purpose? it doesn't make sense to me. I think adding a capacitor across the switch is considered DeBouncing or an RC time delay which there is not Resistance so its just an C passive time delay. I have seen them used calling them passive Detectors using capacitors with Diodes to hold the voltage so the MPU can detect the pulse. I think the name is pulse detectors passive cap + diode.
For caps and switch scanning I don't believe time matters, as a guess. When the game powers on there is a chance a cap is charged, ignore that for just a bit. When the game scans the switches it tries to run a little current through the switch (right, like that's just how it works). That will charge all the caps, the key point is that it takes current(even if only a little) to charge the caps. The switches short across the cap at the speed of light the cap is emptied. Hours later, without being scanned, the cap is still empty. The little current it takes to charge the cap registers on the CPU. Normally when dealing with caps time is everything, but in this one instance I think it only a combination of the switch discharges and the current it takes to charge the cap.
I'm wondering why those capacitors short so much. Ceramic capacitors are usually pretty reliable.
Might be a bad batch...
Bad batch? Duff caps are one or the reasons for "dead" I phones so yeah still failing today
@@LyonsArcade So in that case, I would replace all those caps as a preventive measures.
wow coil and a tip120 good times
KNOCK KNOCK. Love that KNOCK
It's pretty cool!
38:08 If I had to replace a flipper bat with a different used one I would polish them with car polish and most of the yellowing would be removed, making both flippers look near enough the same, thus keeping the wabi-sabi gods at bay.
Always hated knockers going off
But with all the pinball and arcade machines being stored in the back.
Does that mean when someone ready to buy one or two.
Then you pull them out to fix them up?
Just curious.
21:00. Seems like the spinner would need a capacitor based on your theory. It spins fast and wouldn’t register. Need to get an electrical engineer on to tell us the “real” reason. ;)
The way the spinner works is as it goes upside down, it pulls a switch closed, so it's actually closed for quite a bit as it flips around - longer pulse than just bouncing off a switch. Thank you for playing :)
Is there something really strange about pinball machine service that damages those ceramic disc capacitors? In my experience, they are among the most reliable electronic components out there. I think I have come across maybe 1 or 2 shorted ceramic disc caps in 40+ years of working on all kinds of electronics. The newer MLCC surface mount stuff isn't as reliable simply because of the small size/thinner dielectric, but those old school ceramic disc capacitors always seemed to last forever in TVs, radios, etc.
Maybe high-vibration environments like the pinball playfield can jostle the plates around until they find a short.
This particular use they're shorted often, usually several in a machine and several more missing because they were already pulled off by some operator when they shorted....
@@LyonsArcade Not doubting you at all, just seems really strange. What is the typical voltage rating used? Maybe failing from inductive kickback when switching relay and solenoid coils?
Fast as Lucky Luke
Knockers rock ;)
come on people. having a pinball machine without a knocker is like having a hot fudge Sunday without the cherry on top
Preach!
Looks great; note length sounds a little too long.
Wabi-sabi; If the world is imperfect and a tile is driving you crazy then you were crazy before the tile entered your life and the new imperfection in the world simply reminded you that the world is imperfect............ and you are crazy...........
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Like most people.
Thanks for watching 10100rsn :)
I've played this game so many hundreds of times I don't recall the gameplay sounds sounding like that. Can you adjust the gameplay sounds? Because I've never heard the gameplay sounds like that. I don't know if that's supposed to be the original gameplay sounds or not. Just my opinion.
I was thinking the same thing. It doesn't sound like mine.
There are pot adjustments for sound envelope and volume. You can make the notes as staccato as a machine gun, or never-ending until the next one overrides it.
Yes they can be adjusted
There's also a dipswitch to make it 'chimes' or 'noise' this one was set to chimes, we set it to 'noise' for the gameplay video...
the bumpers sound like a door bell sound
I love it!
Nothing like working knockers! Lord I Apologize
He made 'em, he ain't mad at you
It ain't a pinball machine if that knocker doesn't slap the hell out of the side of that cabinet🤣
Make it knock!
if you needto keep it look vintage use coffee just a drop and smear it over the paper it gives it a yellow tone
I'll have to try that sometime Axel, thanks!
it not my idea its from a docu on discovery channel about falsefing documents to give them an old look sorry i am not a native speaker just a german with a lot of curiosity
You bantering with Matt brings out the bEST in you. LOL. haha.
The knocker in that machine is a bit underwhelming. On most pinballs it bangs the side of the cab onto a metal plate and the end of the knocker is also metal. The plastic end seems to be a modification? They are normally metal on metal and give a loud 'crack!'
How does one burn out a knocker coil.....? He must be very good at pinball. Hahaha
I never thought about that, that's a good point :)
Those old processors just couldn't keep up with the action, thus the capacitors.
It uses a 6MHz 8035, which is plenty fast to sample the switches and toss a few commands at the sound chip. The issue is that few switches need to be sampled quickly. The flipper buttons are pressed a couple times a second maybe. The bumpers typically have their sensor pressed until the solenoid activates to throw the ball somewhere else. So a sample rate of, say, 10 times per second would seem to work well for most of the operations, and has the added benefit of debouncing without extra hardware or software--switches typically stabilize within a hundred ms. The spot targets, though, can be a slight issue. The ball isn't going to linger on them. Hence the capacitor to make the pulse last long enough to be detected.
Thanks for the explanation Oval Teen (and Vic) !
Fix the knocker please, why wouldn't you, having gone this far? :-)
Let's fix it!
You wouldn't be able to remove the capacitors even if the matrix was faster. You'd need them for debouncing.
4:03 Don't quit your day job
Ah, there's a complainer in every crowd
and you can take that to the bank ,daddy, wwwoooaa. Time for some Spine on the Pine. Thanks for the great videos Brother , wwooaa. Ya I'm a Wrestling fan. Katie bar the door goodnight . LOL
hahaha thanks for watching man :)
hey what is your name i know that joe is a person but what do we call you? .)
Believe it or not, RR was the very best at overriding BS. As in VN, Scott just wasn't a mature person when RR was at his best.
Always worrying about the knockers...