You gave that 110% Tim. Still pushing right to the end mate! Always very interesting to see your live on foot thoughts mate. Top testing as always. 👏😎🤘
Funny as when was thinking what would be a good "goal pace" I looked at current Garmin marathon race prediction and thought well there is only so many TH-camrs doing about 3:45 one needs and a mile at that pace might not have been told me overly much. Could even have used the regular Pegasus 41 :)
haha that opening , you can tell you do this for the love of it Tim and not for the revenue. PS your esidual fitness from being a long term athlete shines through.. Even after a medium term injury , your base fitness is very good (compared to a covid hobby jogger like myself) , My heart would be about 142-146 pumping out mile reps at 6:30's 🙂
I do experiment with front loading the "conclusion" in my videos largely because TH-cam stats suggest my average view times are often no more than 5 minutes and, in every video, I lose at least 1/3 of viewers within 30 seconds so if they watch 30 secs of this well maybe they have a takeaway! I never quite know in general what works best. I also often click off videos if I don't get much idea of what's going on from channels I don't regular watch in those opening times. It is interesting in general how the "big" channels do this. Some I think do it better than others but I think it also depends on the subject matter and how strong your following is. As for the miles, yeah I was very pleased with my actual performance side of it. OK I was having largely "full recovery" but I think my legs were starting to give out before my aerobic system although with a max HR of 153-154 I am getting pretty close to what would be all out 5K race pace (well when fitter).
Great video, Tim. Good job Frontloading with the conclusion;) Watched it all the way anyway of course. Interesting how the weights scale over sizes. My Rebel 4 is 181g, Vaporflys are all around 175g. So basically identical. Mach 6 is 200g, so this is the first noticeable jump.
Yeah we were discussing average watch times and retention rates in first 30 seconds and I sort of realised that I had pivoted slightly from just comparing each of the "super trainers" to a wider comparison with some "super shoes" (well the Nike ones) so thought might be helpful to be a bit more "upfront" about what I found. Personally I do sometimes click away if it is not readily apparent what is going on in a video etc etc. Your shoe weights seems so light. Would have to reach for my spikes to get anything under 200g. I guess it tells on the 3D nature of modern stack heights that your Rebel 4 and Vaporfly are so close whereas bit of a more gap for me and then my Mach 6 are just over 50% heavier but around 300g is certainly a decent weight for me in a non race shoe.
@@TimGrose Yeah, Audience Retention can be a brutal stat sometimes, right? I get the same drastic drop-off after 30 seconds. Interestingly that Shoe Clearout video is doing pretty well there with almost nobody tuning out after about halfway. Guess once people figured out that it really is just me throwing away a bunch of old shoes, those that were genuinely interested actually stuck around haha.
@@robin29991 I also find the more views I get on a vid then the lower the watch time is. The Peg Trail GORE-TEX ones good case in point as I think people are randomly searching for info on the shoe and so are just skipping quickly between ones they can find. That said the 5th one is progressing nicely like the 4th one did. Already has got to 7K views and generally now my most watched vid on days when have not got a new one. Definitely there is a game to play with how you title a video and the thumbnail but of course you can't say a video is about x when it is not at all.
@@TimGrose Oh Yes, I see that Peg Trail 5 is doing well. Probably will be the type of video that just keeps climbing in views steadily mostly through people searching for the Shoe. Yeah, I get a bit annoyed as well with videos titled something like 'DO THIS TO RUN FASTER'. As Shoetubers we have to keep our integrity;)
When considering price and overall utility, the Speed 4 looks like an incredible buy. Versatile, comfortable, relatively durable, and barely off the pace of the super shoes.
@@adamsouthard1155 yeah in the main I have used all the Speed versions more for daily training than Speed per se. That said I can certainly “get going” in them if try. Maybe here the results were slightly skewed by being the first shoe I tried so was obviously fresh but I went faster than I thought and set a good benchmark for the rest.
@@cousinbrother3898 ah good. I did think of including the latest 5th one in this but need to be fitter and start earlier to include more shoes! I have found both do OK on the road and most of my "trail" running usually involves some road as well so feel I need a shoe that is OK on both.
Fun but knackering way of doing mile repeats! Bloody good session that, not surprised your legs had gone before the end. I'm still a Vaporfly fan. The VF3 for me got better as I put more miles into it, and then it died suddenly after about 130 miles (I did reach for it a lot this year). I have a pair of AF3 just sitting on my shelf looking pretty - I echo your sentiment in that it's too much shoe, and when I first saw pics of it I thought oooh that looks fast I must get a pair
Yeah I wanted to give myself a bit of a fitness test as well and that was the fastest I had run since May. I am still on my first VF3 and I see it is now at 182 miles. It "felt" OK in this mile but might be good to get another pair although I don't really want to pay full price if can avoid it. In a way the AF3 did better than I thought but equally it confirmed my view from when I did about 50 miles in them for my review back in January that it is "too much shoe" - at least for me. Clearly works well for many runners however. So are you going to try your pair or are you thinking of returning for a refund - well if you still can ? And yeah definitely a FOMO effect with the AF3 !
@@TimGrose Keeping them. I still have 2 pairs of AF1 which I use for marathon-paced long runs. Might eventually relegate the AF3 to training.... might try a 10k in them first. Ran a 1/2 in them and didn't like them despite running a semi-decent time (although not my best). Hoping to grab a pair of VF3 at a reduced price in next couple of months but looking unlikely TBH.
Hi Tim! Speed 4 does well in your test. The I only have the Speed 1 and Vaporfly 2, but have ordered the Speed 4 now. Have always felt the Speed 1 is up there in top speed (Mile-10 K) with the Vaporfly, Takumi Sen 8 and Adios Pro 2. Very glad to have ordered the Speed 4 now. And of all the shoes I have, Speed 1 is the best at Marathon Pace.
Yeah Speed 4 was the first shoe here so obviously was freshest but I kind of let myself run "comfortably hard" there rather than just trying to run sub 3 marathon pace and it was a good benchmark for what followed. I was chatting to another commentator here about different Speed versions. I did a shoeoff between the Speed 1 and 4 in May (before got injured) and basically performance wise was really nothing in it. I never had stability issues with the Speed 1 but heard many runners did and I think they have tried to generally address that in the Speed 3 and then 4 so it may feel slightly different but, as I remarked in those other comments, the current shoe closest to a Speed 1 (or 2) is obviously the Speed 4.
Hi Tim! Hope you have sufficiently recovered from Achilles problems! That menace can come back.. Anyways, good to see you running and comparing shoes! And love the countryside!
I have to admit that I am far from "recovered" full stop but the swelling I have had in my left lower leg is definitely less than it was so feel am making progress. I was rather stiff yesterday (Sunday) after these miles on Saturday but equally, when I checked Strava, it was my "hardest" day of training since May when was "OK". I had a look on the map to see if could spot a fairly quiet mile circuit that was reasonably "flat" and there were a few "new to me" streets here to tick off as well. I could also park pretty close to where I started each mile so ideal for changing shoes.
Enjoyed the video. I cannot run in Alphaflys, I find them too uncomfortable and clumpy. Granted I had a career running and racing in racing 'flat's, so I still like to feel the road. So many of the shoes now make you feel disconnected. The closest I can get to what I did run in is the Streakfly. My favourite shoe of all time was the Nike Duelist and Spiridon Gold (both can be seen on-line) -in both of these shoes I ran sub 50 10 miler and nearly as fast as Jakob's Copenhagen's half effort ! Not a carbon plate in sight Keep producing great and different content !
Thanks! I suppose this showed that at least I "can" run in Alphaflys but I just don't really enjoy doing so largely for the reasons you mention - especially "clumpy". I was more of a track 800/1500 runner but I also did all my best road races in "flats". I used a version of the Nike Streak back in 2005 for my 2:33 marathon PB for instance. Sub 50 is going some for sure! I might have lasted for 3 miles at best ! I guess these days a Vaporfly is a good compromise for me. Being 57 now I certainly would not now want to still run in "flats" (even if my heart said I could) but I do tend to steer clear of the current trend for ever higher stacks of soft foam in "daily" trainers. I have the Streakfly and enjoyed them but when I tested it in a shoeoff few years ago, I just preferred the Vaporfly. Streakfly 2 with seemingly now a plate is interesting as ironically despite the relatively low stack by modern day standards perhaps wanted something with just a bit more stiffness.
Enjoyed that comparison video thanks Tim. I recently got the AF3 on a deal - though still extortionate price🤯 - and really like them. But then I’m a UK 7.5. I have a preference for the max cushion bounce feel too. Good to see you running again and the bike seems to have maintained some decent base fitness
Yeah the biking definitely has helped - legs feel a lot stronger for a start. I have always struggled to balance the "dead legs" feeling when I have done a lot of running and cycling concurrently but equally I was still trying to race short track distances. My half to full marathon pace (well when fit) clearly does not need as much "zip". I always think it would be good if somehow larger footed runners could have a better insight into how shoes for smaller ones and vice versa. I guess it is partly on the weight. I can't imagine you have too many running at over 291g that my Alphafly 3 and sub 300g for me are certainly "light" although Vaporflys more like 250g are definitely noticeably more to my liking as it were.
@@TimGrose 😳300g is a brick for me! Tried the Takumi Sen and couldn’t get on with it. It’s light for sure but just feels dead with no pop energy return. Used the AF3 for the mid-Cheshire 5k and lived it. More stable than the AF1 and smoother transition. I also like the VF2 like you but no more than the AF
I have been using my Speed 4 for my workouts for latter part of London Marathon training and for Vitality 10k. I absolutely love them for that. I have 550km in them now and need to retire them really. I have a brand new pair that I'll use for London training next year. Noticed the difference between the two though. The new ones barely flex and my current one's flex like my Kinvara 13s 😂 I've also used the Brooks Launch for short intervals, I do like a basic, lower stack shoe for those. Recently got a pair of the Kiprun KD900x LD from Decathlon for some harder sessions and I've liked those too, firmer and more ground feel than other carbon shoes I've used but they felt excellent in the 15:59 Parkrun I did last weekend
yeah you have to be careful with an old shoe and a new one of the exact same model. I found that with quite a few of the older Speeds that the cushioning would degrade under my toes and I never got any of them much past 250 miles/400K although TBF I rarely do so in anything. I have done a fair bit in the Launch and the 5 and then 6 was my "goto" shoe for at least a year circa 2018. Bit like the Nike Pegasus - not exciting but do a job for sure. Sub 16 parkrun is going some. Maybe I could have done so back in the day but my best is a somewhat annoying 17:00 although these days doing a sub 20 is getting ever more challenging.
Great video Tim as always. I’ve kinda moved away from Nike at the moment, never really enjoyed the VaporFly 3 or the Alpha 2’s so I’ve moved to the Mizuno Wave Rebellion pro 2 amazing shoe, but I do think shoes are just a personal choice and how it makes you feel
@@brianhawkins8332 are they the ones with no effective heel ? Never saw these in my size in UK but did appear to be available. Agree on feel. What is it about them that makes the difference?
@@TimGrose I’m training for Yorkshire Marathon at the moment, I took them out for a 23 mile on Monday and the shoe just wants you to go fast, it’s very aggressive, but when you land on the forefoot the push off is incredible nothing like I’ve ever felt. The shoe won’t let you go slow, I tired towards the end of the run but the shoe was still turning my legs over at a nice rate. It will be my marathon shoe of choice and don’t get me wrong the shoe won’t be for everyone.
The extra 40g on the UK 13 Alfafly vs Vaporfly is instructive. Sagasu says it’s almost parity weight with the Vaporfly now but that is size 9 reference. So many things can go sideways when they scale up the shoe. Generally more “stuff” in the design is a flag for me that it’s gonna be wonky when scaled. A bauhaus design that works well usually scales the best. The Zook Streak. The Vaporfly. The Takumi Sen. The NNormal Kjerag. Those all are delightful and work in large size.
I wonder if, for me at least, the standard width of a foot in my size is somewhat wider than mine so inevitably shoes are built with that in mind and with ever increasing stacks and wider outsoles I am surely carrying round too much foam in many shoes. That certainly feels the case in the AF3 and the Rebel v4 could be as light as a Streakfly if was not so wide. Still it is what it is and at least I still have plenty of shoes to choose from.
For your tall height Tim, you have a high cadence and shorter stride length - that ‘might’ explain why the alphafly don’t feel right, as in my experience they suit low cadence and longer stride length - the alphafly bounce extend my stride length even further; if that makes sense
Good theory and could well be. I think my relatively high cadence comes from my track days when you can't really run a decent 800 or 1500 without some decent turnover.
Really like these video formats Tim. I'm currently looking for a replacement for my very last pair of Endorphin Speed 2. Really tempted to try ES4 but I find them a bit too expensive at the moment. I remember you were saying ES3 and ES4 being very similar. Do you still think that is the case ? Some runners in my club told me they found the ES4 too narrow but I suspect they were comparing vs ES3.
If you read some of the other comment threads there is quite a bit of discussion about different Speed models. I am probably the last person to complain if a shoe is too narrow as generally everything is wider than ideal for me. If you look at how I have laced up the Speed 4 then I have pulled in the laces quite a lot and maybe perhaps a bit more than I used with the Speed 1 and 2 although TBH not a massive difference. They are nowhere near as "wide" as the Rebel v4 but equally I certainly would not describe them as narrow. And yes I did find the ES3 and ES4 very similar. If you recall I did two one hour runs with a 3 on one foot and a 4 on other then swopped them over for next time and TBH after a few minutes I could only remember which was which by looking down at my feet. Maybe the ES4 fits me just a little better but we are talking very subtle differences.
I agree with the conclusions. Nothing like the Vaporfly, certainly not the AF3. I like my SL2s but I’d never do a session in them- strictly an easy shoe for me. You’ve never really been a Rebel fan - rather too soft for you. I’ve not tried the v4s but would consider it. I really need to supplement my running with the bike - it’s worked well for you. Although maybe not just yet - I’m about to experiment with double threshold!!
Ah had not realised that you got the SL2. There are plenty of shoes I feel I "could" do a session in but usually choose not to. At least shoeoffs like this give me a chance to put some effort in and see what happens. By and large you can go "fast" in anything but obviously in a race be still to "giveaway" time over an out and out racing shoe. Yeah I am glad now I got on the bike as certainly has kept me in some sort of mainly daily training. I am sort of trying to alternative bike and run days and although the sun is out today, I think I really "ought to" get on Zwift today as those miles on Saturday were, according to Strava, just marginally my hardest training day since May when was "OK". Historically I tended to feel I got "dead legs" after too much biking when when was trying to race 800/1500 bit different to just essentially trying to maintain a base.
@@TimGrose yeah, Kerr can run well in Brooks so must be true. Doing a session in any regular shoe may, in theory, make you quicker when you slip into supershoes, but isn’t as enjoyable or confidence building!!
@@josephgonzalez_ yeah agreed but was interesting that seemingly I had at least 15 seconds per mile advantage in the Vaporfly compared to the "super" trainers. Still nice to know that I can still do "goal pace" in all these as long as the "goal" is my longest race distance. Rebel v4 is nowhere near as soft as I remembered the Rebel v2 being. It is an odd shoe that could be lighter still if they chopped at least 1cm of width that I feel don't need. I do however try and easier days to wear one of these of even more standard daily trainers like Peg 41, Velocity Nitro 3, Vomero 17 etc etc when the actual pace isn't of that importance I feel.
Very interesting video as always Tim. Reults tie up with what I have noticed across training runs for me in terms of HR, splits and perceived effort. Potentially video idea for you (and one I would be interested in!), given your long training and data history, do you have any sense of how your max HR and/or HRs at 400m/1km/reps has moved over time? (Also do you find say doing a session easier/harder/the same as back in the day). As is alwyas the case your max HR and subsequently HRs while running must've come down but to what extent? I'm now in my mid 30s but my chest strap max is still just about 200 so struggle to fathom this coming down 50bpm!
Funny you mention max HR over the years but I actually did a video on that few years ago. Here you go th-cam.com/video/ZZnkht0sA-Y/w-d-xo.html My highest ever observed HR was 193 and now, aged 57, I can barely make it in the 160s and topped out here at 154 although wasn't completely "all out" and right now I think my legs for running aren't quite there. That said 154 at say end of a 5K or 10K would be fairly typical. You have to be quite specific to really maximise max HR like say a ramp test or progression run and then be fresh. I think a lot of my "problem" now is accepting that interval and race times are way slower than they used to be. My best ever average for say 10x400s off a minute was 64 but I haven't run one 400 at 64 or better since 2020 now. If I did 10x400 now (injuries aside) I probably "at best" be looking to low 80s. I feel I am trying as hard as I ever was but the stopwatch obviously suggests different. I do wonder with my inability to get my HR up overly high then I am "sort of" losing something there in addition to just being older and slower as obviously naturally you will be. Even in my 30s I was already "past it" in my very best events although I did a 4:00 1500 aged 35 as against PB 3:55 when aged 25 so I was at least "close". I had been trying to see if I could break 5 mins again this summer but that will have to wait until next season now.
yeah all other things being at least similar like cushioning, sufficient support and comfort it can only easy days less so with a heavy shoe. I found sometimes with the Invincible, That said the Rebel v4 isn't really an ideal shoe for my narrow feet as just find it rather wide. Nice and light though for sure.
I have the same foot shape as you Tim. I’m a UK 11 at a mere 5’ 9” tall. My feet are long and relatively narrow. My wife is a size 5 and her feet are as wide as mine. Most shoes are a bit too wide for me. The trend seems to be towards ever wider footwear. I have Endorphin Speed 3’s, but I can’t say I run any faster in them than a basic pair like my Brooks Launch 9’s. Maybe the 4’s are quicker.
Ah interesting. I got Sue, my wife, some Peg 41 recently in a women’s UK 5.5 and her feet are certainly relatively wider than mine but they seem to fit her OK. Yeah all my shoes are wider than they need to be but some (like the Rebel v4) more so than others. It is annoying (well for us) with this trend for ever wider outsoles but presume that must be more the norm and guess helps some with stability. Endorphin Speeds fit me a bit better than some others here so that probably helps.
Did I say that? I mostly here wanted to compare the lightweight "super trainers" that I had bought this year and the five I compared were from different brands with the SL2 from adidas being one of them and indeed one I liked more than some of the others. I thought I would throw a couple of "super shoes" for comparison. Probably if I had the time (or rather fitness and energy) the Adios Pro 3 would have been my next choice but that is quite an old shoe now with the Adios Pro 4 surely imminent and I wanted to stick to current shoes. The Alphafly 3 was included as was curious to see how it would do having not worn it for ages and the Vaporfly 3 is my favourite of current super shoes so the best "benchmark" shoe. If I had the Evo 1 I very likely would have included it and I don't have the Takumi Sen 10.
@@addappt :) I think the AP3 would probably have been equal 2nd with the AF3 but a better "ride". In my size the AP3 and AF3 are very similar weights so both are just "more shoe" than the Vaporflys. That's why I don't "love" the AP3 quite as much as Vaporflys. I have the Sen 9 and it is OK but I don't really run in them any more as when I last did it played on the lower leg/ankle/Achilles issues I have currently am trying to get over.
I had the Takumi Sen 8 and now the 10. I think the 9 was only an upper change. Anyway the 10 is significantly more stable. I think it is to do with the full fish spatula pretzel rods rather than just having rods in the front. I’ve been using the TS 10 for speed work for a couple of months now.
@@brianreiter5572 I had the 8 a size less than ideal so sold that on. Did have the 9 in my correct size and yes very similar. For some reason the 10 never appeared in my normal adidas UK 13.5/US 14 and I last time I ran in the 9 I had ankle issues although I did inadvertently do about 15 miles in them one day so have essentially retired it. Maybe the 10 might be a little better then but I could not see a clear use case for them anyway so wasn't too bothered.
The problem is that all the tubers / influencers, as well as the brands themselves, say things like "this shoe is fast" or " it's too heavy to race in" so the super trainers or slightly heavier race shoes don't get used enough in races by them to be able to really provide objective opinion or comparisons. There is one channel in particular however that do sometimes use them in races but it seems they say they didn't go all-out. Then u also have the 'this is a 10 km shoe and not a marathon shoe ' or visa versa.....and all tbese other social media pages that list brands' shoes under race distance categories.....
Yeah there are some comments I hear that make me shake my head sometimes. Saying a shoe is good for a 10K or maybe even HM but not a marathon is well up there! I think most of that is down to training. Running a marathon is hard and to do well at the event you need to train well, long and hard. OK some shoes may suit some runners more than others but these days all the shoes are way more cushioned than the flats I used to race in and never did I really think the shoe I raced a road mile could not be the one I also used for a marathon. Indeed same now. I just use a Vaporfly for anything. I "could" race in wellie boots if so inclined but what would be the point short of a comedy stunt. So if a ShoeTuber says I could race in a "trainer" when has also reviewed every carbon plated racer out there either never actually does or, as you imply, goes to a race and does not actually really race. This shoeoff was not a race for sure but equally I felt I put some effort in and it was kind of fortunate it got dark as I was pretty much "done" after the 7th one.
@TimGrose another way of looking at it is like this: I'm a decent runner but nowhere near a lot of others...im.a 01:30 HM and 03:25 marathon runner and I often get beaten by many folks using pretty standard daily trainers let alone super trainers....that kinda sums a lot up....
@@daveaskew2105 know exactly what you mean. I saw a club mate in a 10 mile race last year lining up in some standard Pegs. He beat me :) I blame old age and not shoes LOL !
Of these it is not an easy answer I would say as none of them combine a premium foam with an non carbon plate. Just answering the question without your caveat then the Speed 4 is by far the closest to the Speed 2 if you like(d) the Speed 2 and want the closest in current shoes then it is a no brainer to get the Speed 4. Back in the day I went from the Peg Turbos as my "goto" lightweight daily trainer to the Endorphin Speed 1 and then carried on through of the versions. So certainly "in my heart" perhaps of these it would be the Peg Plus but the SL2 is certainly also "of an ilk" and does have the advantage of being very affordable. Mach 6 and Rebel v4 have lower drops so I think you have to like that to consider them. I feel I could "get away" with that feeling for a fairly hard mile but recall being more noticeable on longer runs in them.
@@TimGrose I should have been more clear. Not these shoes specifically, any shoe. The speed 2 is still my favourite shoe, the speed 3 is good but not as good as the speed 2 so I'm unsure whether or not to try the speed 4 but yeah probably should just take the plunge and get it. Thanks
@@JoutarouKuujou1 I did a shoeoff with the Speed 1 and 4 few months ago doing some fairly short fast reps and effectively there was no obvious performance difference for me. I think it is generally felt that the Speed 1 and 2 were similar and the 3 and then 4 a bit different to the first two. I can see that but equally I can't think of another different shoe that is closer to the Speed 2 is than the 3 or 4. I didn't find much difference in the 3 and 4 but think have now a slight preference to the 4 mainly as marginally better fit for me. Otherwise I don't really have any other shoes in this rough genre of lightweight trainers. I heard the Zoom Fly 6 is going to be a lot lighter than the 5 but the 5 was a "brick" for me so it is going to have to somewhat different. Peg Plus probably likely to be the Nike one now closest to the Speeds. I have never tried the Puma Deviate Nitro which probably is in a similar class. I guess it depends if you want to just try a different brand in which case any of the non racing shoes here "might work" for you but the "safe bet" is Speed 4 for sure.
@@TimGrose I hated the deviate nitro 2. Might make it my winter walking shoe because the puma grip is good. Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll go for the speed 4 then. Maybe I'll try the peg plus when it goes on discount
You gave that 110% Tim. Still pushing right to the end mate! Always very interesting to see your live on foot thoughts mate. Top testing as always. 👏😎🤘
Funny as when was thinking what would be a good "goal pace" I looked at current Garmin marathon race prediction and thought well there is only so many TH-camrs doing about 3:45 one needs and a mile at that pace might not have been told me overly much. Could even have used the regular Pegasus 41 :)
haha that opening , you can tell you do this for the love of it Tim and not for the revenue. PS your esidual fitness from being a long term athlete shines through.. Even after a medium term injury , your base fitness is very good (compared to a covid hobby jogger like myself) , My heart would be about 142-146 pumping out mile reps at 6:30's 🙂
I do experiment with front loading the "conclusion" in my videos largely because TH-cam stats suggest my average view times are often no more than 5 minutes and, in every video, I lose at least 1/3 of viewers within 30 seconds so if they watch 30 secs of this well maybe they have a takeaway! I never quite know in general what works best. I also often click off videos if I don't get much idea of what's going on from channels I don't regular watch in those opening times. It is interesting in general how the "big" channels do this. Some I think do it better than others but I think it also depends on the subject matter and how strong your following is. As for the miles, yeah I was very pleased with my actual performance side of it. OK I was having largely "full recovery" but I think my legs were starting to give out before my aerobic system although with a max HR of 153-154 I am getting pretty close to what would be all out 5K race pace (well when fitter).
Great video, Tim. Good job Frontloading with the conclusion;) Watched it all the way anyway of course.
Interesting how the weights scale over sizes. My Rebel 4 is 181g, Vaporflys are all around 175g. So basically identical. Mach 6 is 200g, so this is the first noticeable jump.
Yeah we were discussing average watch times and retention rates in first 30 seconds and I sort of realised that I had pivoted slightly from just comparing each of the "super trainers" to a wider comparison with some "super shoes" (well the Nike ones) so thought might be helpful to be a bit more "upfront" about what I found. Personally I do sometimes click away if it is not readily apparent what is going on in a video etc etc. Your shoe weights seems so light. Would have to reach for my spikes to get anything under 200g. I guess it tells on the 3D nature of modern stack heights that your Rebel 4 and Vaporfly are so close whereas bit of a more gap for me and then my Mach 6 are just over 50% heavier but around 300g is certainly a decent weight for me in a non race shoe.
@@TimGrose Yeah, Audience Retention can be a brutal stat sometimes, right? I get the same drastic drop-off after 30 seconds. Interestingly that Shoe Clearout video is doing pretty well there with almost nobody tuning out after about halfway. Guess once people figured out that it really is just me throwing away a bunch of old shoes, those that were genuinely interested actually stuck around haha.
@@robin29991 I also find the more views I get on a vid then the lower the watch time is. The Peg Trail GORE-TEX ones good case in point as I think people are randomly searching for info on the shoe and so are just skipping quickly between ones they can find. That said the 5th one is progressing nicely like the 4th one did. Already has got to 7K views and generally now my most watched vid on days when have not got a new one. Definitely there is a game to play with how you title a video and the thumbnail but of course you can't say a video is about x when it is not at all.
@@TimGrose Oh Yes, I see that Peg Trail 5 is doing well. Probably will be the type of video that just keeps climbing in views steadily mostly through people searching for the Shoe.
Yeah, I get a bit annoyed as well with videos titled something like 'DO THIS TO RUN FASTER'. As Shoetubers we have to keep our integrity;)
@@robin29991 or how I improved from say 25 to 15 mins over 5K. "Helps" if you have done a few races when never used to train !
When considering price and overall utility, the Speed 4 looks like an incredible buy. Versatile, comfortable, relatively durable, and barely off the pace of the super shoes.
@@adamsouthard1155 yeah in the main I have used all the Speed versions more for daily training than Speed per se. That said I can certainly “get going” in them if try. Maybe here the results were slightly skewed by being the first shoe I tried so was obviously fresh but I went faster than I thought and set a good benchmark for the rest.
what a legend. dooing a mile for each shoe for us.
Ah thanks. I ran out of light and "puff" to do eight but seven was better than I thought with my current fitness.
I bought the Pegasus 4 trail GTx off your rec. and the Pegasus 5 trail too so thanx
@@cousinbrother3898 ah good. I did think of including the latest 5th one in this but need to be fitter and start earlier to include more shoes! I have found both do OK on the road and most of my "trail" running usually involves some road as well so feel I need a shoe that is OK on both.
Tim, thank you very much for this great comparison video. Cheers from Argentina!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fun but knackering way of doing mile repeats! Bloody good session that, not surprised your legs had gone before the end. I'm still a Vaporfly fan. The VF3 for me got better as I put more miles into it, and then it died suddenly after about 130 miles (I did reach for it a lot this year). I have a pair of AF3 just sitting on my shelf looking pretty - I echo your sentiment in that it's too much shoe, and when I first saw pics of it I thought oooh that looks fast I must get a pair
Yeah I wanted to give myself a bit of a fitness test as well and that was the fastest I had run since May. I am still on my first VF3 and I see it is now at 182 miles. It "felt" OK in this mile but might be good to get another pair although I don't really want to pay full price if can avoid it. In a way the AF3 did better than I thought but equally it confirmed my view from when I did about 50 miles in them for my review back in January that it is "too much shoe" - at least for me. Clearly works well for many runners however. So are you going to try your pair or are you thinking of returning for a refund - well if you still can ? And yeah definitely a FOMO effect with the AF3 !
@@TimGrose Keeping them. I still have 2 pairs of AF1 which I use for marathon-paced long runs. Might eventually relegate the AF3 to training.... might try a 10k in them first. Ran a 1/2 in them and didn't like them despite running a semi-decent time (although not my best). Hoping to grab a pair of VF3 at a reduced price in next couple of months but looking unlikely TBH.
Hi Tim! Speed 4 does well in your test. The I only have the Speed 1 and Vaporfly 2, but have ordered the Speed 4 now. Have always felt the Speed 1 is up there in top speed (Mile-10 K) with the Vaporfly, Takumi Sen 8 and Adios Pro 2. Very glad to have ordered the Speed 4 now. And of all the shoes I have, Speed 1 is the best at Marathon Pace.
Yeah Speed 4 was the first shoe here so obviously was freshest but I kind of let myself run "comfortably hard" there rather than just trying to run sub 3 marathon pace and it was a good benchmark for what followed. I was chatting to another commentator here about different Speed versions. I did a shoeoff between the Speed 1 and 4 in May (before got injured) and basically performance wise was really nothing in it. I never had stability issues with the Speed 1 but heard many runners did and I think they have tried to generally address that in the Speed 3 and then 4 so it may feel slightly different but, as I remarked in those other comments, the current shoe closest to a Speed 1 (or 2) is obviously the Speed 4.
Hi Tim! Hope you have sufficiently recovered from Achilles problems! That menace can come back..
Anyways, good to see you running and comparing shoes! And love the countryside!
I have to admit that I am far from "recovered" full stop but the swelling I have had in my left lower leg is definitely less than it was so feel am making progress. I was rather stiff yesterday (Sunday) after these miles on Saturday but equally, when I checked Strava, it was my "hardest" day of training since May when was "OK". I had a look on the map to see if could spot a fairly quiet mile circuit that was reasonably "flat" and there were a few "new to me" streets here to tick off as well. I could also park pretty close to where I started each mile so ideal for changing shoes.
Enjoyed the video. I cannot run in Alphaflys, I find them too uncomfortable and clumpy. Granted I had a career running and racing in racing 'flat's, so I still like to feel the road. So many of the shoes now make you feel disconnected. The closest I can get to what I did run in is the Streakfly. My favourite shoe of all time was the Nike Duelist and Spiridon Gold (both can be seen on-line) -in both of these shoes I ran sub 50 10 miler and nearly as fast as Jakob's Copenhagen's half effort ! Not a carbon plate in sight
Keep producing great and different content !
Thanks! I suppose this showed that at least I "can" run in Alphaflys but I just don't really enjoy doing so largely for the reasons you mention - especially "clumpy". I was more of a track 800/1500 runner but I also did all my best road races in "flats". I used a version of the Nike Streak back in 2005 for my 2:33 marathon PB for instance. Sub 50 is going some for sure! I might have lasted for 3 miles at best ! I guess these days a Vaporfly is a good compromise for me. Being 57 now I certainly would not now want to still run in "flats" (even if my heart said I could) but I do tend to steer clear of the current trend for ever higher stacks of soft foam in "daily" trainers. I have the Streakfly and enjoyed them but when I tested it in a shoeoff few years ago, I just preferred the Vaporfly. Streakfly 2 with seemingly now a plate is interesting as ironically despite the relatively low stack by modern day standards perhaps wanted something with just a bit more stiffness.
Enjoyed that comparison video thanks Tim. I recently got the AF3 on a deal - though still extortionate price🤯 - and really like them. But then I’m a UK 7.5. I have a preference for the max cushion bounce feel too. Good to see you running again and the bike seems to have maintained some decent base fitness
Yeah the biking definitely has helped - legs feel a lot stronger for a start. I have always struggled to balance the "dead legs" feeling when I have done a lot of running and cycling concurrently but equally I was still trying to race short track distances. My half to full marathon pace (well when fit) clearly does not need as much "zip". I always think it would be good if somehow larger footed runners could have a better insight into how shoes for smaller ones and vice versa. I guess it is partly on the weight. I can't imagine you have too many running at over 291g that my Alphafly 3 and sub 300g for me are certainly "light" although Vaporflys more like 250g are definitely noticeably more to my liking as it were.
@@TimGrose 😳300g is a brick for me! Tried the Takumi Sen and couldn’t get on with it. It’s light for sure but just feels dead with no pop energy return. Used the AF3 for the mid-Cheshire 5k and lived it. More stable than the AF1 and smoother transition. I also like the VF2 like you but no more than the AF
I have been using my Speed 4 for my workouts for latter part of London Marathon training and for Vitality 10k. I absolutely love them for that. I have 550km in them now and need to retire them really. I have a brand new pair that I'll use for London training next year. Noticed the difference between the two though. The new ones barely flex and my current one's flex like my Kinvara 13s 😂
I've also used the Brooks Launch for short intervals, I do like a basic, lower stack shoe for those. Recently got a pair of the Kiprun KD900x LD from Decathlon for some harder sessions and I've liked those too, firmer and more ground feel than other carbon shoes I've used but they felt excellent in the 15:59 Parkrun I did last weekend
yeah you have to be careful with an old shoe and a new one of the exact same model. I found that with quite a few of the older Speeds that the cushioning would degrade under my toes and I never got any of them much past 250 miles/400K although TBF I rarely do so in anything. I have done a fair bit in the Launch and the 5 and then 6 was my "goto" shoe for at least a year circa 2018. Bit like the Nike Pegasus - not exciting but do a job for sure. Sub 16 parkrun is going some. Maybe I could have done so back in the day but my best is a somewhat annoying 17:00 although these days doing a sub 20 is getting ever more challenging.
That was a good one 👍 cheers
Thanks for watching!
Thanks Tim
Thanks for watching!
Great video Tim as always. I’ve kinda moved away from Nike at the moment, never really enjoyed the VaporFly 3 or the Alpha 2’s so I’ve moved to the Mizuno Wave Rebellion pro 2 amazing shoe, but I do think shoes are just a personal choice and how it makes you feel
@@brianhawkins8332 are they the ones with no effective heel ? Never saw these in my size in UK but did appear to be available. Agree on feel. What is it about them that makes the difference?
@@TimGrose I’m training for Yorkshire Marathon at the moment, I took them out for a 23 mile on Monday and the shoe just wants you to go fast, it’s very aggressive, but when you land on the forefoot the push off is incredible nothing like I’ve ever felt. The shoe won’t let you go slow, I tired towards the end of the run but the shoe was still turning my legs over at a nice rate. It will be my marathon shoe of choice and don’t get me wrong the shoe won’t be for everyone.
The extra 40g on the UK 13 Alfafly vs Vaporfly is instructive. Sagasu says it’s almost parity weight with the Vaporfly now but that is size 9 reference.
So many things can go sideways when they scale up the shoe. Generally more “stuff” in the design is a flag for me that it’s gonna be wonky when scaled. A bauhaus design that works well usually scales the best.
The Zook Streak. The Vaporfly. The Takumi Sen. The NNormal Kjerag. Those all are delightful and work in large size.
I wonder if, for me at least, the standard width of a foot in my size is somewhat wider than mine so inevitably shoes are built with that in mind and with ever increasing stacks and wider outsoles I am surely carrying round too much foam in many shoes. That certainly feels the case in the AF3 and the Rebel v4 could be as light as a Streakfly if was not so wide. Still it is what it is and at least I still have plenty of shoes to choose from.
Clearly you need to become a hobby cobbler and get yourself a Dremel, belt sander and a glue pot to really properly customize things. 😜
@@brianreiter5572 ha ha. I did cut a hole in my bike shoes to take off pressure off my toe !
For your tall height Tim, you have a high cadence and shorter stride length - that ‘might’ explain why the alphafly don’t feel right, as in my experience they suit low cadence and longer stride length - the alphafly bounce extend my stride length even further; if that makes sense
Good theory and could well be. I think my relatively high cadence comes from my track days when you can't really run a decent 800 or 1500 without some decent turnover.
All in the name of science Tim👍.
Ha ha yes. Sore legs to prove it as well :)
Really like these video formats Tim. I'm currently looking for a replacement for my very last pair of Endorphin Speed 2. Really tempted to try ES4 but I find them a bit too expensive at the moment. I remember you were saying ES3 and ES4 being very similar. Do you still think that is the case ? Some runners in my club told me they found the ES4 too narrow but I suspect they were comparing vs ES3.
If you read some of the other comment threads there is quite a bit of discussion about different Speed models. I am probably the last person to complain if a shoe is too narrow as generally everything is wider than ideal for me. If you look at how I have laced up the Speed 4 then I have pulled in the laces quite a lot and maybe perhaps a bit more than I used with the Speed 1 and 2 although TBH not a massive difference. They are nowhere near as "wide" as the Rebel v4 but equally I certainly would not describe them as narrow. And yes I did find the ES3 and ES4 very similar. If you recall I did two one hour runs with a 3 on one foot and a 4 on other then swopped them over for next time and TBH after a few minutes I could only remember which was which by looking down at my feet. Maybe the ES4 fits me just a little better but we are talking very subtle differences.
I agree with the conclusions. Nothing like the Vaporfly, certainly not the AF3.
I like my SL2s but I’d never do a session in them- strictly an easy shoe for me. You’ve never really been a Rebel fan - rather too soft for you. I’ve not tried the v4s but would consider it.
I really need to supplement my running with the bike - it’s worked well for you. Although maybe not just yet - I’m about to experiment with double threshold!!
Ah had not realised that you got the SL2. There are plenty of shoes I feel I "could" do a session in but usually choose not to. At least shoeoffs like this give me a chance to put some effort in and see what happens. By and large you can go "fast" in anything but obviously in a race be still to "giveaway" time over an out and out racing shoe. Yeah I am glad now I got on the bike as certainly has kept me in some sort of mainly daily training. I am sort of trying to alternative bike and run days and although the sun is out today, I think I really "ought to" get on Zwift today as those miles on Saturday were, according to Strava, just marginally my hardest training day since May when was "OK". Historically I tended to feel I got "dead legs" after too much biking when when was trying to race 800/1500 bit different to just essentially trying to maintain a base.
@@TimGrose yeah, Kerr can run well in Brooks so must be true. Doing a session in any regular shoe may, in theory, make you quicker when you slip into supershoes, but isn’t as enjoyable or confidence building!!
@@josephgonzalez_ yeah agreed but was interesting that seemingly I had at least 15 seconds per mile advantage in the Vaporfly compared to the "super" trainers. Still nice to know that I can still do "goal pace" in all these as long as the "goal" is my longest race distance. Rebel v4 is nowhere near as soft as I remembered the Rebel v2 being. It is an odd shoe that could be lighter still if they chopped at least 1cm of width that I feel don't need. I do however try and easier days to wear one of these of even more standard daily trainers like Peg 41, Velocity Nitro 3, Vomero 17 etc etc when the actual pace isn't of that importance I feel.
Very interesting video as always Tim. Reults tie up with what I have noticed across training runs for me in terms of HR, splits and perceived effort.
Potentially video idea for you (and one I would be interested in!), given your long training and data history, do you have any sense of how your max HR and/or HRs at 400m/1km/reps has moved over time? (Also do you find say doing a session easier/harder/the same as back in the day). As is alwyas the case your max HR and subsequently HRs while running must've come down but to what extent? I'm now in my mid 30s but my chest strap max is still just about 200 so struggle to fathom this coming down 50bpm!
Funny you mention max HR over the years but I actually did a video on that few years ago. Here you go th-cam.com/video/ZZnkht0sA-Y/w-d-xo.html My highest ever observed HR was 193 and now, aged 57, I can barely make it in the 160s and topped out here at 154 although wasn't completely "all out" and right now I think my legs for running aren't quite there. That said 154 at say end of a 5K or 10K would be fairly typical. You have to be quite specific to really maximise max HR like say a ramp test or progression run and then be fresh. I think a lot of my "problem" now is accepting that interval and race times are way slower than they used to be. My best ever average for say 10x400s off a minute was 64 but I haven't run one 400 at 64 or better since 2020 now. If I did 10x400 now (injuries aside) I probably "at best" be looking to low 80s. I feel I am trying as hard as I ever was but the stopwatch obviously suggests different. I do wonder with my inability to get my HR up overly high then I am "sort of" losing something there in addition to just being older and slower as obviously naturally you will be. Even in my 30s I was already "past it" in my very best events although I did a 4:00 1500 aged 35 as against PB 3:55 when aged 25 so I was at least "close". I had been trying to see if I could break 5 mins again this summer but that will have to wait until next season now.
I prefer a lighter shoe for easy days, esp if there’s a few short strides, and use the Rebel V4
yeah all other things being at least similar like cushioning, sufficient support and comfort it can only easy days less so with a heavy shoe. I found sometimes with the Invincible, That said the Rebel v4 isn't really an ideal shoe for my narrow feet as just find it rather wide. Nice and light though for sure.
I enjoyed this one sir!!!! Thanks for this video
Thanks very much! Not long until Berlin now I see. You must be thinking about the taper now. Good luck!
I have the same foot shape as you Tim. I’m a UK 11 at a mere 5’ 9” tall. My feet are long and relatively narrow. My wife is a size 5 and her feet are as wide as mine. Most shoes are a bit too wide for me. The trend seems to be towards ever wider footwear.
I have Endorphin Speed 3’s, but I can’t say I run any faster in them than a basic pair like my Brooks Launch 9’s. Maybe the 4’s are quicker.
Ah interesting. I got Sue, my wife, some Peg 41 recently in a women’s UK 5.5 and her feet are certainly relatively wider than mine but they seem to fit her OK. Yeah all my shoes are wider than they need to be but some (like the Rebel v4) more so than others. It is annoying (well for us) with this trend for ever wider outsoles but presume that must be more the norm and guess helps some with stability. Endorphin Speeds fit me a bit better than some others here so that probably helps.
Why do you hate adidas super shoes? Another great vid mate, ell done.
Did I say that? I mostly here wanted to compare the lightweight "super trainers" that I had bought this year and the five I compared were from different brands with the SL2 from adidas being one of them and indeed one I liked more than some of the others. I thought I would throw a couple of "super shoes" for comparison. Probably if I had the time (or rather fitness and energy) the Adios Pro 3 would have been my next choice but that is quite an old shoe now with the Adios Pro 4 surely imminent and I wanted to stick to current shoes. The Alphafly 3 was included as was curious to see how it would do having not worn it for ages and the Vaporfly 3 is my favourite of current super shoes so the best "benchmark" shoe. If I had the Evo 1 I very likely would have included it and I don't have the Takumi Sen 10.
@@TimGrose I’m only messing mate. But it would be interesting to see where the AP3 falls on your spreadsheet.
@@addappt :) I think the AP3 would probably have been equal 2nd with the AF3 but a better "ride". In my size the AP3 and AF3 are very similar weights so both are just "more shoe" than the Vaporflys. That's why I don't "love" the AP3 quite as much as Vaporflys. I have the Sen 9 and it is OK but I don't really run in them any more as when I last did it played on the lower leg/ankle/Achilles issues I have currently am trying to get over.
I had the Takumi Sen 8 and now the 10. I think the 9 was only an upper change. Anyway the 10 is significantly more stable. I think it is to do with the full fish spatula pretzel rods rather than just having rods in the front.
I’ve been using the TS 10 for speed work for a couple of months now.
@@brianreiter5572 I had the 8 a size less than ideal so sold that on. Did have the 9 in my correct size and yes very similar. For some reason the 10 never appeared in my normal adidas UK 13.5/US 14 and I last time I ran in the 9 I had ankle issues although I did inadvertently do about 15 miles in them one day so have essentially retired it. Maybe the 10 might be a little better then but I could not see a clear use case for them anyway so wasn't too bothered.
The problem is that all the tubers / influencers, as well as the brands themselves, say things like "this shoe is fast" or " it's too heavy to race in" so the super trainers or slightly heavier race shoes don't get used enough in races by them to be able to really provide objective opinion or comparisons. There is one channel in particular however that do sometimes use them in races but it seems they say they didn't go all-out. Then u also have the 'this is a 10 km shoe and not a marathon shoe ' or visa versa.....and all tbese other social media pages that list brands' shoes under race distance categories.....
Yeah there are some comments I hear that make me shake my head sometimes. Saying a shoe is good for a 10K or maybe even HM but not a marathon is well up there! I think most of that is down to training. Running a marathon is hard and to do well at the event you need to train well, long and hard. OK some shoes may suit some runners more than others but these days all the shoes are way more cushioned than the flats I used to race in and never did I really think the shoe I raced a road mile could not be the one I also used for a marathon. Indeed same now. I just use a Vaporfly for anything. I "could" race in wellie boots if so inclined but what would be the point short of a comedy stunt. So if a ShoeTuber says I could race in a "trainer" when has also reviewed every carbon plated racer out there either never actually does or, as you imply, goes to a race and does not actually really race. This shoeoff was not a race for sure but equally I felt I put some effort in and it was kind of fortunate it got dark as I was pretty much "done" after the 7th one.
@TimGrose another way of looking at it is like this: I'm a decent runner but nowhere near a lot of others...im.a 01:30 HM and 03:25 marathon runner and I often get beaten by many folks using pretty standard daily trainers let alone super trainers....that kinda sums a lot up....
@@daveaskew2105 know exactly what you mean. I saw a club mate in a 10 mile race last year lining up in some standard Pegs. He beat me :) I blame old age and not shoes LOL !
Which shoe in your opinion runs most like the endorphin speed 2? Other than speed 3 and 4
Of these it is not an easy answer I would say as none of them combine a premium foam with an non carbon plate. Just answering the question without your caveat then the Speed 4 is by far the closest to the Speed 2 if you like(d) the Speed 2 and want the closest in current shoes then it is a no brainer to get the Speed 4. Back in the day I went from the Peg Turbos as my "goto" lightweight daily trainer to the Endorphin Speed 1 and then carried on through of the versions. So certainly "in my heart" perhaps of these it would be the Peg Plus but the SL2 is certainly also "of an ilk" and does have the advantage of being very affordable. Mach 6 and Rebel v4 have lower drops so I think you have to like that to consider them. I feel I could "get away" with that feeling for a fairly hard mile but recall being more noticeable on longer runs in them.
@@TimGrose I should have been more clear. Not these shoes specifically, any shoe. The speed 2 is still my favourite shoe, the speed 3 is good but not as good as the speed 2 so I'm unsure whether or not to try the speed 4 but yeah probably should just take the plunge and get it. Thanks
@@JoutarouKuujou1 I did a shoeoff with the Speed 1 and 4 few months ago doing some fairly short fast reps and effectively there was no obvious performance difference for me. I think it is generally felt that the Speed 1 and 2 were similar and the 3 and then 4 a bit different to the first two. I can see that but equally I can't think of another different shoe that is closer to the Speed 2 is than the 3 or 4. I didn't find much difference in the 3 and 4 but think have now a slight preference to the 4 mainly as marginally better fit for me. Otherwise I don't really have any other shoes in this rough genre of lightweight trainers. I heard the Zoom Fly 6 is going to be a lot lighter than the 5 but the 5 was a "brick" for me so it is going to have to somewhat different. Peg Plus probably likely to be the Nike one now closest to the Speeds. I have never tried the Puma Deviate Nitro which probably is in a similar class. I guess it depends if you want to just try a different brand in which case any of the non racing shoes here "might work" for you but the "safe bet" is Speed 4 for sure.
@@TimGrose I hated the deviate nitro 2. Might make it my winter walking shoe because the puma grip is good. Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll go for the speed 4 then. Maybe I'll try the peg plus when it goes on discount