Dennett on how religion offers an excuse to stop thinking
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ส.ค. 2008
- Dan Dennett talks about how religions in many cases offers an "goldenplated excuse to stop thinking" and that people have got to stop playing the "faith card" in debates. I think he puts it brilliantly.
The full video is available at google video:
video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
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Dan Dennett is one of the smartest well reasoned intellectually honest thinkers on the planet today.
Well said by Dennett. Religion is shallow and does not require thinking, but only faith to believe pre-packaged ideology. Religion preaches submission and obedience, and the worst is, religion convinces believers they should not trust their own minds. In this regard people that do not think are easier to manipulate and be useful tools to accomplish political and social objectives.
the fact that there are people of your intelectuall has me keep some faith in humanity.keep strong
Spoken by someone who has neither researched the bible or even read it😂😂😂
I doubt it. A scientific education has only strengthened my belief in that faith is completely useless. If I can't see it or measure it I see no point in assuming that it exists. The idea that some bronze age people had a better understanding of the cosmos than we do today strikes me as, frankly, ridiculous.
Just my two cents.
John
And 4 years later, you are still spot on. Hope life has treated you well through all of them.
John
And 7 years later, you are still spot on. Hope life has treated you well through all of them.
Faith is the beliefs of things unseen. Its not about something physical that is in the present but its true that if you see it and believe that you can have achieve it, that is faith. Your faith isn't based around god but you and what you invision.
What part of your life doesn’t involve faith?
'Lucille is a friend of mine, and she is allways right.' :-)
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”
- Napoleon Bonaparte
There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Quite a good discussion, free thinking is a gift, surrendered mind can't have it.
"Free thinking is a gift, the surrendered mind can't have it." Free thinking is outside of the cliche grabbag. You get to that place by taking an interest in words and concept. There is a satisfaction that you want to return to again and again in the creativity of this kind of thinking.
There is no difference between faith and fantasy.
So is your icon a belief that you share with others, or a wishful fantasy that you share with others?
Taran Marduk the bible definition of faith is the evidence of things not seen.
@gridsleep no one in their right mind can possibly think that there is this creature that created the universe and told some random human about it and told some humans who are possibility-speaking completely imperfect (low understanding of anything, being ignorant, being bad, being insane ) to write down some stuff that could easily be copied by a fantasy novel and then hopes that humans (with his intellectual abilities) lay their hope in some god that wouldnt even proof his existence once. A god that creates universes with timelines should easily predict and influence the future as there are no limits. Why did he create the universe? For entertainment? Then why wouldnt he just skip through time? Completely irrational and delusional
@@Leo-rh6rq I'm going to spell g💩d in lower cases to tease with religious scumbags
@@AutodidactEngineer in hindsight I feel bad about expressing my believes as if I knew the truth and implying that billions of people are deluded and dumb. I still think god doesn't exist but in our minds he (or we ourselves) can do good and introduce moral value beyond objective truth. Its fun to tease people we think are deluded but I think its a bit inapproiate to do it online or in the public.
“lucille says u're wrong"😂😂 perfect timing
Dan good job.. That "Lucille " bit was really strong. It's putting the shoe on the other foot. If you say that to a Christian , it should hit home that it's exactly what they do with their fake God
I love the Lucile argument soooo much !! :D
why do you people have to be part of any kind of religion??? why don't you start for believing in yourself? that would be interesting
i totally agree with you,you have a really good point there.
+Lau Pe
What self? On Naturalism Self is a delusion! All of your atoms that make up YOU are sluffed off every 3 years. The physical matter that makes you up is gone. Why do you think You exist. This isn't a word game. Point is that the only thing that we have direct access to is OUR thoughts. First person introspection is a faculty of an immaterial soul, or a delusion of your brain. It is time for you to start believing in your SELF, Lau Pe! And ask the question, where did this immaterial self come from since the BIG Bang can't create immaterial things like souls.
Good luck on your journey.
exaclty u cant delimit an self.... so how do the soul delimit from the outside particle.
People do believe in themselves until they realize that it is just not enough.
@Jerf Hankell Our being, existing, is all about information, instructions arranged as DNA code rather than just the random actions of chemicals manipulated by chance over time [there was no "lucky molecule].
You are loved! It is difficult to "love' molecules!!! Smile
Dennett is absolutely right,....thank you.
FFD
Wonderful post. Wow, intelligent discussion. It can give a person hope.
As herp derp as Moyers occasionally is here, he still did a good job with the interview.
This one is a real gem.
He was like that with Campbell's Power Of Myth series. His people ignored my requests for them to bring Christ Mythicist authors to his show, Carrier and Price. I petitioned them separately.
It’s really fascinating how religion can take someone who I nearly always like and admire like Moyers and put them in herp derp mode. (Such a wonderful turn of phrase :) ) Moyers is clearly an intelligent and thoughtful guy and he’s a good interviewer, but people just assume religion is beyond questioning and, so, have never really developed any responses to basic questions.
Another example of this is Richard Dawkins’s interview with George Coyne who just exudes intelligence-clearly a brilliant man. And yet, Dawkins turns him into a befuddled mess with some basic questions.
th-cam.com/video/po0ZMfkSNxc/w-d-xo.html
@@danielboyd4079 I know exactly what you mean.
For example, I often "agree" with right-wing media personalities, or at least I can appreciate them for being rigorous or articulate.....but when it comes to their imaginary friend stuff there's an obviously irrational compartmentalization happening there; and what I like to do is just pretend they're suffering a stroke and wait until they recover and move to another topic.
Luciel told me. Lol that's awesome
@UsmanHaider03 if you are implying that a higher power saved you, what would you say to the families of the 7 people who died beside you? Why didnt this higher power save them??
"what does god want, cos this is a weird way to achieve it, if god is
perfect he should be happy in his own company, what does he need humans
for, or, if he does need humans for some obscure reason, why not make us
sycophantic god-worshipping robots at the outset?"
I truly feel free in my mind now I am grateful
The problem with religion is that it relies on vagueness by nature and probably by design. It allows a Christian to find messages from God in anything if he believes hard enough, even the Christian tagline, "God works in mysterious ways" advertises the fact that their concept of God is vague enough to let you justify anything, while their punishments are extreme enough to keep you fearful and control your behaviour. The fact faith is prioritized over rational thinking constantly, should be a red flag to anyone.
Nailed it !
Bill Moyers is by far and large my favorite journalist and host. He is so friendly. Draws out the guest. Seeks common ground while discussing differences. He never puts forth his beliefs as adamantine.
He comes close in this one. The faith gene. This is part of Dennetts issue. People who stop thinking. Bill incorrectly asserts and describes faith as a biological component. As if to say you have to remove his religious DNA to not be faithful. This is gross thinking and proves that theists stop thinking.
No one is born a theist. There is no DNA coding for theism. You learn it and it tells you to stop learning.
Theists, as Dennett says, have a faith card that so far everyone is supposed to respect. But in actuality fear. The non faithful, by the faithfulls behavior, has been taught to fear the faithful. So when the non believer tries to assert equality the faithful denies it and claims privilege. This is what the faithful are taught. You are exceptional. You are favored. To engender bonding to the religion. Its BS. Atheist want theist to think because if they do they may realize they are harming humanity. And ideally, that religion isn't real. Try reading any religious text with a critical mind. Try to see it from an intelligent perspective. You will realize what atheists are trying to tell you. It doesn't make sense and if you follow it truly, you will be a criminal.
The problem for theist who take religion lightly is that as long as you are a theist you will always have one foot in the world that brings suffering and death to others. All it will take to go from theist who loves thy neighbor and does no harm to others is on seriously bad thing happening in your life and now you want apostates dead. Atheists don't do that. They follow natural morality. There is no trap to fall into. No scripture that tells us genocide, murder, slavery, rape, etc... is good because an imaginary friend says so.
4:30 He just said “if it says so (in the book), then it settles it for me (that it’s true).”
But then that would mean that he would be beholden to every text of every religion, because they all assert that they’re the truth. They’re all different, and they can’t all be right, if any of them are even right at all...
And believing just because it’s in there...oh man, proving god with the bible is like proving Superman with comic books 🤣
I tried as hard as I could to believe in religion because I wanted to be a good person. And that’s why I wasn’t a good person.
Excellent clip! :D
@r0rozx
the words between [>>>] is from the translator , not present in the original arabic text.
As the newest translation is 50 years old , so they didn't know piercing what , so they explained it like that .
Now as we know the black holes , the verse and arabic word (thokb) is is very indicative to the black hole (in arabic>> al thokb al aswad)
I belong to religion but I still agree with this guy. I think it's important that I can explain my views past the fact that the Vedas or Bhagavad Gita say something is right. What I personally like about my scripture is that they offer me room to do so and encourage me to do so, but I really think this is something that people of other religions can and need to make sure they're doing as well. It's doable; you don't need to be an atheist to be able to explain yourself. :)
You're right. And it's a tendency we should all be aware of in ourselves. Ideologies are the lenses through which we view the world and they can give us a very distorted perception. We need to be willing to look honestly at information that doesn't 'fit' our preferred version of reality. Hard to do.
I have never been treated for any mental conditions but I happen to know many people who struggle with anxiety, trauma, addictions & have tried just about everything without any success. I have a degree in Biopsychology, I have also a certificate in counselling but I won't work in a system that only offers band-aids as a solution. I have read dozens of books written by scholars on Trauma, PSTD and Addictions & I have a tendency to draw my own conclusion. My current interest is on epigenetics.
In other words, the believers owe the non believers an explanation, but they can't give it. They hence have no option but to dance around and lie about things.
Hallefuckinglujah!!!
Can somebody tell me where to find the rest of this please?
Right, we're on the same page then.
I just never had any. I was born into a Christian family, went through Sunday school, church etc. But it never caught on. I remember that even from an early age I didn't believe much of it. It's not that I had a bad experience ether, I had good friends in the church and we had a good time there but at the end of the day I just lacked faith.
I prefer it that way, it led me to become more interested in science and I ended up as a chemical engineer!
I really appreciate what Dennett is saying here - it's different from the typical naïve atheist position you encounter on TH-cam. His point is actually quite tolerant to faith. What really matters is "what should we do?" rather than "how old do you think the earth is?".
My only thing is to keep it to yourself. Just because your religious doesn't mean anybody else should have to follow YOUR set of rules.
@r0rozx
PLease send me your yahoo e-mail or skybe account_no problem if don't want_
to make the discussion easier for both of us .
500 letters are not enough :(
Also youtube prevents posting links .
Faith is the little voice in your head that says you should believe the little voice in your head.
That's crossing a divide where the empirical support is a bit dodgy for me, not the least because it tends to be conflated with ideological or political issues. You can certainly recommend materials for me to look at -- I can't say I have kept up with breaking developments on that end of things. If they answer to a scientific standard worth the time to read them, I will.
What sort of research do you do on trauma, out of curiosity?
im going with the man and the sailor beard !!!!!
When faced with a mystery, we can either investigate said mystery or claim “I dunno, god did it” and call it a day.
Attempting to solve a mystery by appealing to an even bigger mystery is an ignorant excuse not to think and doesn’t lead to new knowledge.
Absolutely right 👍🏻
You first. Come back in a year or two and tell us how it went. I look forward to your report.
Great one 👏👏👏👏
Awesome!!!
I find myself agreeing so much with Dennett on this.
Even if there were a god from which we got our morality, that morality would be the subjective, personal preferences of that god.
He gives a truncated view of religion. St Augustine said 'I believe that I might ultimately have understanding.' He does not say 'I don't have to think because it's cut and dried...' or anything like it. He is simply striking down an unthinking view of religion.
The faith card is the following equation: (ignorance + stupidity) × (arrogance + intellectual dishonesty) = faith = god.
@BlameRepublicans I didn't mean theism, I meant survival of consciousness after death, which is not necessarily related. More research needs to be done in this area, which CAN be researched, unlike whether there is a God or not.
He's right
@FellOnSoundGarden John Wheeler: "The universe does not exist 'out there,' independent of us. We are inescapably involved in bringing about that which appears to be happening. We are not only observers. We are participators. In some strange sense, this is a participatory universe. Physics is no longer satisfied with insights only into particles, fields of force, into geometry, or even into time and space. Today we demand of physics some understanding of existence itself."
Yes, as Dennett says theists should explain why they believe in their religion. So, then atheists should explain why they believe in atheism, going beyond the usual case of only attempting to disapprove the arguments for the truth of christianity, by giving original arguments, reasons to think that atheism is true. But it is quite refreshing and respectable to finally see a serious atheist man!
0:14 THE GRUDGE!
Atheism can also be quite comforting in that it posits a finite life where you go out like a lightbulb and no more worries, a final rest. But entertain the notion that perhaps the light doesn't go out, and you may find yourself in places unknown after death, and a great deal of fear can come up. It has for me.
From a Theist...yes, yes and yes!
@squamish4244
What evidence do we have that consciousness is not purely a function of the brain?
@BlameRepublicans You are the first person on one of these videos who has acknowledged that the survival of consciousness is a phenomenon that can be studied. Everyone else has replied with a knee-jerk ''consciousness dies with the brain'' backlash. I say let research be done in this field and let it speak for itself.
alguem pode dar uma maozinha e por legendas pra aqueles q nao dominam o idioma. valeu!
Agree 100%. Playing the faith card (or the "lucille" card) is not an argument. Its an attempt to cut off discussion and thinking and replace it with blind faith. Enough. Religious ethics do have a role to play in our society and in our govenments, but decisions cannot be made - or problems solved - simply by letting "faith" do the heavy lifting.
Well said sir.
@LIGHTRONIX Please, tell us how atheism makes you stop thinking. I would love to hear that.
CARE AS destructive to a person's life as religion is!!!
I think in many cases it's better for people to not be thinking. People do some seriously messed up stuff based on what they think. Religions feed people bs, but telling people they need to think is also religious bs. I don't need an excuse to stop thinking because I have no obligation to think. Why tell people what to do at all? All anyone wants is to be dominant and victorious. Trying to intellectually better the world is futile. Yet I'm still typing, because I want everyone to know I'm right.
"Apologists do not seek truth. They're basically like lawyers...advocate for their client no matter what the truth actually is" And let the chuch say "Amen" as we turn to the book of "Evidence that Demands a Mistrial" :-)
@muphart
In what conceivable way is using our critical faculties "religious bs"?
I like the way he speaks
The morality from that god would still be that god's opinion.
Faith in Unicorns,whats the point
And if you don't want to talk - fine, but don't act more busy than you are because no one is forcing you to reply, you are choosing to engage in this conversation yourself.
Yet, you are here as well.
@CrazyBluePrime
1-Quran challenged the whole humanity to write only one chapter in the same style and eloquence (Arabic) but this moment the challenge is not fulfilled to disapprove Islam by the easy way , the funny thing , some chapters are only 4 sentences !!.
2-This book has no mistakes at all , and what is cliamed to be a mistake is just a matter of misunderstanding the verse and taking it in the context , can you tell me one mistake ?
@squamish4244 Well he had his problems too, and it's not likely that I sympathize for his deeds or his person, still, what is said in this citation is clearly verifiable, and I admire these critical observations of the flaws, specially when it's towards religion, which is what people have the tradition and the habit of NOT criticizing.
Thinking of new ways to deny reality and indoctrinate ignorance is not what Daniel was speaking about.
Sure, but it seemed easier than trying to explain how "10 billion world population" and "living in huts" are not compatible. Or how the longevity of hundreds of species of dinosaurs is not very relevant in the discussion of the well-being and happiness of one specific species of primate. Or that concerning longevity, the exercise of intelligence is the only real hope a species has of escaping the fate of the dinosaurs.
@moroney1 Indeed it is. Some scholars have theorized that the weakening of traditional religion in the 20th Century left a void for 'meaning' that was filled by the doctrines of Nazism and communism, and now consumerism (endlessly buying shit to make ourselves feel better). This is not an attack on science, it is an observation of how people's yearning for meaning in their lives, undermined by scientific research, has created a serious problem in our culture.
You can "think" about how something can come from absolute nothing for a billion trillion light years and not know. Just because we can "think" doesn't mean that we will know. So, stopping thinking about things that will never be known (e.g. something coming from nothing) is not illogical.
Did you make the assumption that I'd be interested in hearing about therapeutic uses of psychotropic substances traditionally associated with shamanism because I used the words "mindfulness" and "power." Perhaps I should have said "efficacy." :)
Mindfulness has therapeutic power because it directs the creation of new cognitive and behavioral pathways during temporarily changed brain states occurring within its practice. It's highly focused work for the patient, and it takes considerable time.
If you have never been pushed or damaged past the breaking point, I am glad to hear it and I surely hope you never are. However, I would ask you to consider even the empirical standards we like to hold firm to, when you say "Living in the present moment is not an easy task, I will admit, but the fact is that we can ALWAYS do something about it." The evidence to the contrary is very large and wide-ranging.
I'm all for mindfulness techniques -- they are powerful. But they are not all-powerful.
@TheGuinnessboys Atheists don't necessarily have to have anything against religion, it is merely the absence of theism, in fact, there's some atheists that see benefit in such doctrines, which is the case of those in atheism 3.0.
I'm an agnostic atheist, and even though I consider some religions to be a tool of mind enclosement and control through ignorance and magical and illogical thinking, I wouldn't say I actually hate them, I only hate those who manipulate people through them.
@Downfurlife: You forgot a federal crime: religious discrimination in the workplace, housing, schools, public accommodations and facilities, zoning, persons and properties, and even prisons. "In this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." ~ George Washington
Downfurlife: hating is bad for your mental health.
every time i try and have a discussion with reasonable and intelligent Christians or Muslims it all ways ends up coming down to faith, and once you reach that point you know you have taken them apart on every other subject, you just hit a wall
@FellOnSoundGarden
I didn't say that using critical thinking is religious bs.
Critical thinking does not make the world a better place. You can use it to justify anything you want. Telling people they would be better off if they did more thinking is the same as telling them they'd be better off following your religion. People don't need to be told how to live. We are already alive.
With few words, Dennett courteously and concurrently hits all the nails on all heads for its very true that compared with other thought processes, religions have and continue to have a very easy (and lazy) ride!
Pure Genius.
Brilliant
@mjh012363 well,..yeah that's my point, accepting things without a good reason to isn't the smartess thing to do is it? accepting things because they make you feel good isn't always the best thing to do when it comes to reality, that's why reason is always the best approach to take when it comes to making a decision
He needs to turn his criticism toward this irrational notion of gov't we're so fixated on.
@Lingula77 "what should we do?" to be answered intelligently, does require a certain grasp of reality. For example, with the debate on what to do about global warming, some christians argue that god promised after the flood that the earth would never be destroyed again, so there is no reason to worry about global warming.
No matter what you think about the facts of global warming, that argument is not rational and shouldn't be part of a serious conversation.
That's why I am no longer religious and a Christian. I literally can't stand the arguments my friends and family say about their God...I mean ...that's why many people with political power and influence can manipulate naive "religious"people, because of their fear of God...it's really sad huawa....and how these political people can use the church for their shady things.
I love Dennett's passion and purpose but I still wish he had the determination to take this argument so much further. It is not enough to challenge people of faith yet allow them to exist and to defend their faith. The very concept of believing in gods with no evidence is foolish, stupid and destructive. And humanity's inability to overcome this is sad. Why do we have to show any respect for, or patience with, or tolerance of people who spew these irrational ideas? No other area of human existence tolerates such irresponsibility while rewarding those who spew it. Yet we still are demanded to respect people of faith. Makes no sense. There is no need to encourage those of faith to demonstrate their reasons to us. We should be doing the opposite. We should be clearly demonstrating to them how irresponsible their faith is. And we should be shunning them, ostracizing them, isolating them and calling them out. People of faith do not deserve a platform. They have been allowed to control the dialog all along.
@moroney1 No, it is just human nature to search for meaning. That is what brought religion into existence in the first place, not the other way around. Wanting your own or your loved ones lives to mean more than a flash in the pan of limitless time. This is a separate issue from the truth of science. It is a fundamental issue of being human that we will do anything to avoid - buying stuff, partying, etc. - or even forming a belief system out of atheism to provide meaning.
Yes. What's the problem with people not wanting to think? Who am I to tell people that they should be inquisitive about the world/reality/universe?
There certainly are many problems. But I think the question is irrelevant from that. On a more fundamental ground, why should people pursue such "meanings of life?" Why should that be enforced at all?
Logical thinking is so hard - just give me a book of rules, so I know whats what:-)
No, I speak solely from knowing what you said and addressing only what you said. Your actions here, on the internet. And if you think being "good" outside justifies you from acting how ever you please here, you're wrong. This is very much real, as you are a real person behind that screen, are you not? And please do not educate me about what unconditional love is when I have done nothing to you but speak about your inappropriate behavior. If I am childish and low, I ask you to explain how.
Laws are still just hypotheses forwarded to model empirical data and may actually be less supported than things that are not called laws. For example, the process of evolution is an algorithm that can be proven mathematically to be a generic optimization algorithm(Look up genetic algorithms) we can literally know a lot of its properties with as much certainty as that of the laws of logic.
@FellOnSoundGarden That is, if you believe there is only one life - and now I've revealed my true colors. I don't believe consciousness is restricted to the brain and I think this is an important area that deserves much more research than it has been getting. Think of me what you will now, but I've spent a lot of time considering this matter and reading such physicists as Roger Penrose, John Wheeler as already noted, and the dialogues between Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli.
@FellOnSoundGarden You can see a similar - and possibly in the long term even more damaging - trend in the way many very smart people refuse to accept the reality of man-made climate change, even though the evidence is overwhelming. On an emotional level, because of the implications that would have for their lifestyle, and the kind of conditions we may be facing up ahead, they just can't do it.
@NiymbleFingers ?
Fear is provoked by plenty of things outside the system of the mind. That feels like a little superiority talking -- do you fear nothing? Will you let me throw you into a cage with a hungry predator? We may also fear things constructed by the system we have created as humans -- you can have extreme and justifiable fear of losing your job, if it means you will starve and die without it. Nothing mortal goes fear-free -- it's part of the system for keeping us alive, among other things.
@carlosewm I'm not sure you should quote a megalomaniac would-be ruler of Europe who essentially was his own god as the best source for quotes about religion.