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Scotland's Hardest Route Receives a Controversial Ascent
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2024
- In this week's episode of The Ticklist, Rob Greenwood attempts to navigate through the tricky and often confusing world of Scottish Winter Climbing ethics.
On Feb 22nd, visiting Polish climber Filip Babicz climbed Greg Boswell's Bring da Ruckus (XII 13) but was criticised for the lack of rime ice and snow on the route. We attempt to answer the question: was this a valid ascent?
Read more here: www.ukclimbing...
#scottishwinter #winterclimbing
Controversial News: (00:00)
What are Scottish Winter conditions?: (00:47)
Greg's ascent: (02:34)
Filip's ascent: (03:25)
Wider Context: (05:21)
Filip's observations: (05:50)
Analysis: (08:10)
![[UNCUT] หวั่นขาดความเชื่อมั่น ศาล รธน. วินิจฉัยคดีถอนถอนนายกฯ เศรษฐา | คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ | 14 ส.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8hKvQe_vh3o/mqdefault.jpg)
This sparks so many questions! How many first ascents can a crack have? One for each season? And most importantly: is a route covered in bird shit white enough to count as a winter ascent?
Maybe that’s one for mid way through the bird nesting season, but please - don’t make me be the one to present it 🤮
With a route this steep where the crux is clearly in steep, black Rock, I think the snow/rime on the easier sections is less important than the headpoint vs ground up difference. Ultimately climbing is mostly a sport of contrived difficulty and I think the "Scottish winter" thing becomes much less relevant on steep terrain. Dialing gear on top rope definitely bumps this down a commitment level however.
Thank you, Rob, for your great and well-balanced summary video of this controversial topic!
It reminds me of Dave MacLeod's guest editorial on the UKC in 2012. In his first ascent of one of his (and Scotland's) hardest, yet rarely mentioned, winter routes, 'Castles in the Sky', the crux roof section does not look wintery at all in the photo, even though the rest of the crag (and the upper part of the route, too?) was totally wintery and white on the day. Basically, the several metres(?) of horizontal roof would just never ever get white for an obvious reason. So he cracked on anyway on a proper winter day.
For the same reason, overhanging hard routes are seldom coated in white… And even when one is, the actual difficulty varies A LOT. Where should the line be drawn? As the standard of Scottish winter climbing soars, I observe it is becoming an increasingly tough question…
I suppose a golden principle is one should be honest about what they have done, like how they have climbed in what condition. I admire Filip Babicz for his ascent.
By the way, I am glad I managed to capture the right moment of Greg on his historic ascent and the photo was again used 🙂
I feel like there’s so much more detail I could have gone into, but decided to reign it in a little to make it more manageable - hence omitting Castles in the Sky.
Much like you, I think Filip deserves to be treated with respect. It’s obvious from the interview that he cares about tradition and did what he thought was right. I really don’t envy the situation he finds himself in, because the lines are so incredibly blurry - and getting blurrier - that even for someone who’s done a lot of Scottish Winter it’s hard to say what’s ‘in’ and ‘out’ anymore, especially where steeper terrain is concerned.
Hopefully the article we have in the pipeline will kick that conversation off in a constructive way.
@@ukclimbingofficial You surely did a great job, Rob!
I appreciate this video being a significant contribution to the climbing community as you hoped in a good way! Thank you.
Thanks Masa, you're too kind. Even though it's been years since I last climbed in Scottish Winter it still means a lot to me. Hope all's well with you too - it's been a while!!
With the variable conditions, the route is never going to be the same over different ascents. Filip can't control the conditions, and he climbed the same physical location, which is what he has claimed to have done.
Does it count as hard of an achievement? Maybe not (I've never climbed in winter conditions, so I wouldn't know). But it was a personal achievement for Filip, which in my opinion is all that matters.
Whilst I agree with much of what you've wrote, part of what makes Scottish Winter climbing so special is its ephemeral nature, which often involves waiting for something to come into condition. It's often this wait that builds anticipation, making it even more special when you come around to doing it.
90% of scottish mixed is basically drytooling , you bash away at the Ice and scrape it out the rock to place gear , that would do more damage than just gently placing the tip of the axe like in drytooling , so I don't see what the big fuss is
You’ll note I avoided talking about hoar and rime protecting the rock, because I think the consensus has finally settled on this being a whole load of nonsense. However, what isn’t nonsense is just how much harder routes are whilst covered in the stuff. Cleaning out cracks, finding placements, and repeating that process makes a massive difference to the overall difficulty of the route.
A 2nd accent in my eyes, well done Filip. I hope you enjoyed your time climbing in Scotland 🍻
Hej Rob here is a questions : can Filip come and make third (UK second) ascent on perfect by book winter Scottish conditions now or not? He has inspected the route by climbing it already. What would you say? Not onsight, not ground up? He basically is stuck by Scottish standards. Isn't he?
I don’t see any reason why not. I think the greatest sticking point of his ascent was the conditions, not the style. However, I got the impression that he was happy with what he had done, and in which case - why come back? He’s got a bright future ahead of him and clearly has immense talent, so I’d imagine he’ll likely move on to the next thing. It’d certainly be great to see him back in Scotland again.
Three questions Rob if you don't mind : 1. I'm right remembering that Banana Wall ascent was on fix gear? 2. Totally theoretical questions - if during someone ascent wind has blown away all the snow, than the ascent is not valid right? 3. if the next hard route in Scotland will be just on steep roof it won't count? I know some of those is difficult questions for you to answer but maybe those expert you will be interview can?
Sorry for the delayed reply Marcin, I only just spotted your message.
Banana Wall was attempted ground-up, but due to the falls taken there was gear left in from previous attempts. As such, when Greg made the first ascent there was some gear left in place. It's hard to avoid this happening whilst going ground-up simply because if you were to abseil down the route and remove the gear, it would no longer be ground-up.
In terms of conditions changing mid-route, that's theoretically possible, although it wouldn't be wind that would cause the routes to strip - it'd be rain or a rapid rise in temperature. The more likely situation, from having been there myself many times before, is that you arrive in the corrie and instantly know whether a route is 'in' or 'out'. Sometimes it's not that clear cut, but becomes more apparent upon closer acquaintance, but the fact the turf wasn't frozen when Filip started to climb suggests - at least to me - that it definitely wasn't in an ok condition to climb either from afar or from close-up.
Finally, I think there's a much larger conversation to be had about the future of Scottish Winter climbing and I think the article we have in the pipeline will go into answering this question in a lot greater detail. Historically Scottish Winter routes never went onto such steep ground because we didn't have the tools, fitness or skills to do so, but times have changed. As such, do we stick to our traditions or modify them for a modern age? It'll be interesting to see what the answer is and whether or not everyone agrees!
I've been snowboarding in the mountains for 20+ years, and never have I heard a conversation like this amongst our community. Life's too short. Get out and climb, that's the biggest achievement.
I can't speak for snowboarding, but questions on style come up quite frequently in climbing 🤷
Climate change is going to make this discussion irrelevant.
On the contrary, it’s probably going to make it all the more poignant, as routes come into condition a whole lot less than they once did - hence ascents in marginal conditions have the potential to become much more common place.
@@ukclimbingofficial sure but eventually you probably just won’t get the conditions of yesteryear frequently enough to keep the standards. Standards will drift with changes in climbing culture and environmental reality, just as in other areas of climbing. Climbing culture has always adapted to changes, whatever the source. Previous generations become just that.
I think we’re making the exact same point, albeit using different words
@@ukclimbingofficial Probably my fault as I am prone to missing the point :) I like your videos. Always very interesting.
this is my favourite climbing channel.
Thanks!!
Climb for yourself
And The achievement is yours
Regardless
Of rules or nay sayers
Maybe the grade for Scotish winter routes needs to be dynamic, being instead based on an equation to account for the variable conditions. Highest grade on any given assent wins! 🤣
Don't make it more complex than it already is 😂
Jokes aside, I reckon the most difficult route I did in Scottish Winter was Hooker's Corner in ridiculously full-on conditions. There must have been a foot of hoar/rime over the route, maybe more, meaning that progress was incredibly slow. I reckon I had to hang on to the axes for 2-3 (maybe 4) times longer than I would had it have been in leaner conditions. At times it felt like I was caving, or digging, or swimming, or something - I'm not sure exactly what?! Certainly a very surreal experience...
@@ukclimbingofficial Well in the new grading equation system I propose, that would certainly command a respectable grade! 👏👏👏
@@GJ_0008 In which case, I'm fully behind it 🤣
Well done Filip don't worry about small ppl. Great climb 😊
Splitting hair. Fact is he climbed it during calendar winter. Like ascents in Scottland in late March or April are also not winter scents (weather, temps and most importantly amount of daylight. You guys have panties in a wad, because outsider did manage to pull off second ascent.
Out of interest, did you actually watch the video? Within it we quote directly from Filip, who said that "with relatively low altitudes like in Scotland, extra rules outside the simple calendar window are necessary". In terms of foreign climbers coming to Scotland, there has - much like we said within the video - been a long and rich history of people coming from abroad to climb in Scotland. Ines Papert is perhaps the ultimate example of this, as she not only repeated some of Scotland's hardest routes, but put up her own routes too - all in keeping with 'Scottish Winter' style. As such, there's no issue with 'outsiders' coming in and climbing our hardest routes, but when they do we expect them to respect the established traditions - much like we would when visiting other areas (such as the example I gave about visiting Czech sandstone and using chalk and cams, neither of which are permitted within that area).
@@ukclimbingofficial compering placing cams on czech sandstone to climbing in scotland with "a little less snow than is considered to be in style, but than again its a bit muddy, because there was ice at some points in the route" is pretty silly to me. But than again, I know nothing about scottish ethics, just my thoughts after watching the video. Ultimately I think it comes down to what Filip is thinking, if he's satisfied (and it seems he is) than that's all that matter
rules ich Czech sands are simple and easy to follow. scotish winter rules are elusive, ridiculous and even you can not set it once and for all for others to follow.
If there’s one rule that’s relatively simple though, it’s don’t climb a mixed route when it’s black 🤷🏼♂️
I’m actually really happy that Filip is content with what he’s done, because - like you say - that’s what matters; however, what I was hoping to explain within this video was that there is indeed another side to that. FWIW, I don’t think there’s necessarily much logic to what Scottish Winter conditions actually are, but the traditions are what many feel makes it so special.
Why do I get many notifications for the same video from UKC?
Sorry, Peter. We don't know why this is as we haven't touched anything! Presume it's an issue on TH-cam's end.
@@ukclimbingofficial OK, I got this video recommended to me 8 times. That happens with all your videos and never with videos from other channels. Strange.
Fully agree. Need to climb in Scottish kilt (with no underwear) to be classified as a Scottish winter ascent, to the begin with.
It is an impressive ascend. Hard Scottish mixed routes are dry-tooling, with or without rime. You cannot compare this ascend to using cams on soft Chech sandstone. Well done Filip!
As I said on the UKC thread, two things missing in the video that I noticed was that Filip notes the turf wasn't frozen when he climbed, and I think the turf being frozen is a pretty central part of determining when UK winter routes are in condition or not. And then secondly, the comment made by Dave Macleod that Filip quotes isn't really saying that overhanging routes don't need to be wintery (whatever we take that to mean). Dave's comment seems centrally to be that people who think that hoar or rime somehow protect the rock from scratching are just wrong. I'd agree completely with that.
There’s a whole lot more detail I could have gone into, but (as per my reply to Masa) I had to draw the line somewhere in order to make it manageable.
Much like you, I think the myth that hoar and rime somehow protects the rock has now - finally, after many years - been debunked as absolute nonsense. That said, I’ve always seen the presence of hoar and rime as representing more than that, because it’s as much about the difficulty it adds, and the extra challenge it brings, as a result of it being on the route.
In terms of the turf, I was worried that if it wasn’t frozen low down then it wouldn’t be frozen high up; however, I wasn’t sure whether or not there was any turf high up, although this is a moot point because if it were me - and the turf wasn’t frozen low down - then I wouldn’t be setting off on the route in the first place.
This all sounds little strange for an outsider. Could he claim a first ascent of a new route and grade it M12?
If it's any consolation it's pretty strange and confusing for insiders too!! In terms of it being a new route, I don't think there's any case for that. In terms of giving it an M grade, I think that would be more accurate; however, given that it differs so greatly from the established tradition I'm not entirely sure that this would be accepted, as it would be seen to validate the precedent set, and therefore suggest to others that it is ok to climb routes in this sort of condition (which, at least currently, it isn't).
the whole idea of inspecting a route before you climb it is crazy to me, but I'm old. Seems to only serve the ego but to be fair most of Dave McLeod's ascents are pre-worked, and most climbers practice routes these days before leading apparently so what do I know. The whole world is going to shit so climbing might as well go too I guess.
In Dave’s defence, most of his winter ascents have either been onsight or ground-up, but on rock that’s certainly his preferred style. In winter I still see onsight/ground-up being the prevailing ethic - even after all this - simply because a) it’s the tradition and b) most routes would either be a pain to work on top rope, or in some cases completely impossible. As such, I hold out hope that future winter ascents will still be done in good style, and that’s something people like Greg Boswell are championing.
What a total non-issue being waffled about by people who will never even get on the route.....
It's being waffled about by someone who's done a lot of climbing in Scottish Winter though, so has a reasonable handle on what is/isn't acceptable, and headpointing an out of condition route is not acceptable. Imagine if we went to climb on Czech Sandstone with chalk and camming devices, it'd be frowned upon wouldn't it. Why? Because it goes against the prevailing ethic of an area, which is exactly what this ascent did.
Let's not push the rules to the point where potential ego of abilities is only chasing numbers 👌 Consequences of misjudgement are irreversible sometimes 😶