Understanding Surround Formats in AV Receivers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
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www.audioholics... - Understanding Surround Formats in AV Receivers: In this video Gene and Hugo explain all of the various consumer surround formats over the years and how they've impacted the AV receiver.
Be sure to check out our detailed editorial on this topic that elaborates on topics discussed in this video.
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Holy crap! I just watched another couple of vids explaining the same thing, only it seemed like it was from a book. I needed this vid! Thanks!
Aha!! Mass without Class. Now that is what I call a great moniker/name for creating a system with overkill. I love your channel and sincerely hope that you never make video's that are overly complicated where the average guy has to continually be referencing other material to find out what you are talking about. I like that you use "everyman" language that is relatively easy to understand. I am relatively new to all the different formats etc. and without a simple way of learning something it isn't very long before I am lost, frustrated,and looking for another hobby. keep up the great work guys. This simple guy appreciates it.
Excellent clear and no-nonsense explanation. Great job guys!
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I still use 2003 Pro . Logic Surround Sony with 9 speakers 6 of them Bose and 10 band Equalizer with IMX Expander mix it up and hear what you get. Nice show ✌😎👍
Hi guys, I am so happy to hear you guys say that you need space to make proper use of the newest surround formats. I tried Atmos with bouncy house speakers and it didn't work for me, I ended up sending the receiver back and I ended up acquiring an older high-end receiver which supports all of the formats up to Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio. I get a greater sense of height and envelopment by properly placing my speakers and properly calibrating them. I'm going to hold on to whatI've got until Atmos and DTS-X become more common and better implemented.
DonR. That’s the way🙂
Great video, improved my understanding of surround formats. Thanks.
For Music and T.V. Sources That Only Have 2ch Output, I Love How My YAMAHA RX-V473 Has a "5ch Stereo" Mode
Nice roundup of formats.
that takes me back. I had the rx-v990 which was ac3 ready and when I got a DD laserdisc player i added the external dolby digital decoder ddp-1. First guy on the block!
What year?
Which is best Multi In LPCM or DD + on my Apple TV ?? Which is better and differences ??
DTS sounded good
Speaking of mass without class... In college I had a huge 5.1 Onkyo system hooked up in my dorm. The TV was only 10 inches and all we could afford.
I as a gamer tried out pro logic 2 surround once as a teen in wind waker and made surround a thing to get when I could. I have a smaller apartment as well as budget so 5.1 seemed to be perfect, but amplifier was trouble as my first sony one lacked HDMI. I later got a used Denon AVR-1311 and it does everything I need.
One thing you guys did not mention though understandable as it is not a format like rest; is PCM surround. Modern consoles and PC's, even PS3 went for this uncompressed and open surround format. Wii U and Switch support only PCM 5.1 for surround and knowing what can support that is a pain. Also PC's are not friendly with Dolby or DTS formats most of the time when it comes to gaming, and modern consoles also want to do PCM surround and DTS or Dolby only as fallback for older hardware.
I also had copy of Blade Runner Final Cut that claimed it had PCM 5.1 surround which sounded interesting for a big movie like it but actually it turned out to be Dolby True HD track.
Luckily for me, the digital formats get automatically detected and locked in without need to choose the format myself, and most I have to do is on playback device side. If I want to try Pro Logic surround in nintendo 64 games on my Wii U, I have to disable surround output in Wii U system, go with stereo and then I can use Pro Logic or DTS modes for stereo matrix encoding.
Also looking at mostly my european Blu Ray collection, it seems 5.1 is most supported format. Even though atmos is available, it feels like most common consumer surround system is 5.1 as 7.1 needs larger rooms that few have I guess, or my blu rays are just old movies that did not have better surround mixing done to them ever.
DTS Neural:X is the way to go! 👍🏻
Pawl I like Neural X
Doesn't it just bust the vocals ?
Simple yet very informative video. Much like yourself I was a fan of the Dolby Pro Logic IIx but I recently upgraded to a Pioneer Elite receiver and like you said all the older formats are gone from it so I lost Pro Logic IIx but I have learned to like DTS neo.
This channel is my favorite.
Thanks, good video
where to place the cube bose speakers
What about the THX listening modes? Whats the difference?
Very informative, thank you.
man I love this channel!
Great information, thx!
Great video. Thanks a lot.
formats , bitrates, number of channels , deceiving power ratings and DSP modes are always changing mostly but not always for the better. Sorting through it all is up to the end consumer. At least you guys are a voice of reason in the room guiding us along the way so thank you.
Good primer on surround formats.
Great video. Very informative.
I want Buster Keaton in DTS 7.1.
Great knowledge share, I have some confusion on DTS neural X that is clear now thank you so much guys
Wow a lot of formats. I remember when Dolby ProLogic was cutting edge lol.
I thought it still is. Lol
It was the largest step forward of any of these....
The movies before 2010 don't have truly distinct channels greater than stero anyway.
Nice video. Very informative, which I love and from what I can tell you guys know your stuff. I appreciated the part about Dolby vs. DTS and their sample rate? cover up, very interesting. I come from the IT background so I'm no stranger to tech jargon, acronyms and the ever changing formats with all their good, bad, and ugly features. But I gotta say, as complete noob when it comes to audio tech, there was a lot of room for further explanation here. I found myself pausing the video a few times to think about what was said or dismissing things I needed more explanation on just to try and keep up. This is NOT A TRUE beginners video, and you have a golden opportunity to grab viewers like me and duck them into a channel, there were about 10-15 (random number I made up) opportunities to explain in depth beginner details, things like, what is a channel, how do sample rates effect audio quality, etc. Those things mentioned in this video and others were cursory it best, but I was left to read between the lines. Not good for a beginner video. No doubt you were trying to keep it shorter while covering such an in depth subject, perhaps next time (maybe update this one?) you could make a few supplemental videos that go in depth on other basics and then reference them into a video like this. But other than that, great job and thanks for contributing! Keep up the good work. Btw I haven't look at any of your other videos, maybe they are all the things I was asking for and more. Just harping on this one, so no troll comments please and thanks.
Yamaha rx-v870 with vhs vcr doing prologic back in the day.. yeah, the memories.... and that step to dolby digital and dvds, oohh yeah that was a trip, what a difference when you were rockin prologic b4.
love your vids great work fellas
if one has Bipoles for side surrounds, what is the recomended speakers style for Rear/Back surrounds... another pair of Bipoles or pair for Monopoles....?!? Thanks.
Great video guys. Im glad I have a Yamaha RX-a2000... All those legacy formats at my disposal....
Another great, informative video 👍
I know that Dolby TrueHD is “supposed to sound better” cuz it’s a lossless track compared to Dolby Digital, but at 5.1 I can’t tell the difference between the two. Is the difference only noticeable if the TrueHD is played at 7.1?
Just to many formats to deal with today. Dts hd master is doing me great.
When I had a surround sound system, I preferred DTS Neo:6 Cinema mode to playback Dolby Pro-Logic encoded LaserDiscs. Sounded richer to me, at the time.
Great videos. Please keep these coming. I love hearing you guys talk about anything HT.
What is PCM on my Yamaha receiver don’t remember seeing before on its display now show decoder off then shows pcm when I change the sound mode it changes but still the pcm shows up ? I have yamaha aventage RX A770
Pretty sure Yamaha keeps Pro Logic II and NEO:6 because their in house DSP's run those as a base layer.
i think you are right about that
Please discuss the "folded motion tweeters" as in the Martin Logans.
Hugo cracks me up :) On a side note, I haven't ventured into Atmos, DTS X, etc because my living room, although a decent size (25 x 20 ) isn't set up for more than 7.2 and even then I only run 5.2. Honestly, I am not sure if I'm even going to switch. Am I in the minority?
I have 7.1 in a dedicated basement theater that's 15' deep by 20' wide, with my side surrounds hanging a few feet down from its low (7') ceiling. I have no interest in ceiling or height speakers. 7.1 is fine for me. I steer the surrounds' bass to the sub and play the mains' bass out of both the sub and the mains.
I don't have enough room for 7 channels on the ground either. I have a 5.1 system with an additional two speaker mounted to my cieling. I had some little book shelfs that came with adjustable wall mounts so threw those up there. Atmos didn't impress me much but neural x did.
Hey guys if you’re still here lol. Question I need answered..I have a demon 1500h..I have a 5.1.2 hookup..I have 2 high wall mount speaker mounted slightly behind are sitting Position..but,On my Amp assign..It has different terminology like front height top front top middle it does not have anything for rear height..So on the amp assign should I have it on surround Dolby or top middle?
I know it's really old and in a way not even worth mentioning, but I'm going to do it anyway! I loved Quadraphonic sound. Even before the big uprise of Dolby Surround! :-)
yea that was a trip you could listen to a song accapella or with any one of the instruments crazy fun and old school cool why ahead of time and true 4 channels if you sat in the middle remember boys this was the 70s
What's a "bouncy house" again?
Dolby pro was 4 channels and it was great!! Still is!!
Any movie made before 2010 it's all the same anyway!!
What panels are those on the door and ceiling? Thanks for the content!
This video was pretty spot on. Netflix delivers an atmos mix on top of Dolby Digital Plus and charges you out the you know what for it.
I just want to say, you guys Rock. I appreciate that you guy's narrow the basics down. I utilized your ideas with my HT and I couldn't be any happier with my setup. I have a question if you may answer, my friend wanted to know if ML ESL's are a good speaker for HT vs Definitive Tech's. He saw and listened to my HT but he's debating whether he should go with ML's or DT's? Anyway you guys are awesome thanks for the video's
Very informative review as it discusses Commercial Theater vs Home Theater Atmos! Imho, Atmos is absolutely terrible for most folks. Is that what's causing the drop in the power of the current receivers? For instance, my Marantz SR8002 from 2008 has the same power supply as the Marantz SR8015 BUT according to your own measurements, the 140WPC 8015 is less powerful than the 125 WPC8002 to the tune of nearly 30wpc 5ch continuous.
I bought my 8002 retailed for $2,000 but I bought it for less than half. The 8015 costs $3,800... A quadruple price hike for less power.
After doing a postgraduate university course in digital audio/acoustics I would HIGHLY recommend reading a guide to dsp for engineers, digital signal processing by zolzer and why your ar it start designing your own algorithms in matlab.
thanks for the great video. I have always preferred DTS because I thought it sounded better. I didn't realize it was a better format than Dolby Digital. Thanks Gene and Hugo for your great unbiased videos.
WOW!!! The more I listen to you two, the more I see that I need to learn so much more... How can I, if possible, to use the linear PCM for my music cd's? Is that possible? It seems that the DVDs have a much greater quality of sound and I really want to hear the best that my CD'S have to offer! thanks, guys!
What is the difference between multi channel stereo and Dolby Atmos?
@Scott 1 when it says multi channel on display
@Scott 1 I'm using it through blutooth.
Please advise in which sound format it will be better to watch a movie so that I can get surround sound in 5.1 ch. I'm having Bose acoustimass 10 series 5 and using Denon X1500h.
Thank you for the content! What is the maximum format transferred with Toslink? My 7.1 Sony is from 2011 in case you were curious.
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Scott 1 I am sincerely grateful for the explanation. I’ve always thought that I’ve been cutting a fat hog getting away with clean optical.
Great info! That room is so ugly though.
I know this is difficult with all of the variables, but would you guys do a video on true reference levels and the actual power, speakers sensitivity, room size etc. need to reach THX reference levels within there spec. There is so much confusion out there. Most people think if there db meter says 75db or there AVR is at 0 there rocking reference level. I would never listen at this level I find it too loud, but I am okay with reference level bass.
Way to many variables for them to be able to do that I think. They could go over the principals behind it though. I don't listen to anything at referance levels ever. Just way to loud in a small room for my comfort. For some reason it doesn't sound as loud in a large theater.
I still enjoy the difused sound I get from my bi pole surrounds. I don't see a need to jump to Atmos style speakers yet.
Atmos didn't impress me much to be honest, but neural X did. Probably one of the best advancements in decades to me. A lot of the formats I thought "ya, it sounds different, not sure I would call it better though". Neural X actually sounds good to me.
So pro logic 2x is the one I need to test out and see if I like
Can you also talk about true pure direct av recievers for music?
Good morning Gentleman. Your help would be appreciated. I was gifted a LG BP 250 Blu-Ray player which doesn't have a Coax out. So I tried to SPDIF this back to my Phillips HTR3464 which worked, but output was only stereo, not like the Perfect 5:1 separation that mynold Akai DDX7005 DVD player would provide to the same amp via Toslink.
I put up with having just stereo from the Blu-Ray, but yesterday this Blu-Ray disc. It wasn't until I was disconnecting it that I noticed it says DTS 2.0 +DIGITAL OUT marked on its rear. I also notice that the next model up that has a Coax output also has the same DTS 2.0+DIGITAL OUT marked on its rear.
So, is this the reason I was only getting stereo out? Or was that a SPDIF TV Thomson 40FW3323 TV issue please?
Because I don't want to buy a new Blu-Ray that won't play either Blu-Ray's or my old DVD's in 5:1. Thank you for your help! 👍🇬🇧
Thnx guys for great video! Im gonna setup a home theater in a relatively small room on approx 9 sqft and 6,5 ft to the ceiling. So, sitting in the center of the room, what would sound the best - 7.1 or 5.1?
when you say 9 sqft do you mean you're in a 3'x3' room? I think you'd struggle to fit everything, might be better off with a 7.1 headset. if you mean 9'x9', either will be fine, with 7.1 being better if you're paying attention to detail.
I love the way they throw all these formats at you likes it's the bottom line, but don't mention what's on the back of the receiver. IMHO you got DTS Master and DD True you're in good shape, when I upgraded my receiver this year connectivity was the priority. You'd better be prepared to do some research to find that stuff out. I wanted at least 2 HDMI out and pre outs on all the channels not just the subs. Have fun.
Andrew Jackson This is a video about surround formats... Have you not seen their other videos?
My college days were in the late 1950s. We thought it was so neat that we could get stereo radio. One channel had to be on fm and the other on am. Before that we had Hi Fi, which was one Hi Fi speaker playing from a 33 1/3 ' long play' record or a reel to reel tape deck. I believe that tape deck was a Tanberg and the refrigerator size speaker used Altec drivers in a home made box.
Glad we have the modern stuff now. Love your videos!
I always thought my reel to reel sounded better than any other format until CD's came out. VHS and Beta was actually really good with audio though. I grew up in the 70's and 80's though, born in 67. I think my reel to reel was a Teac?
Receivers starting to look like nascars with the logos... cracking me up guys! great show
You guys started off talking about information overload?
Congrats you guys are right there too!!
Learn how to break it down for the noobs!!!!
What about stuff like Circle Surround II (CSII)? I have that on my Marantz SR7300.
What sub is that in the corner guys?
Velodyne DD-15+
Can you guys do a video on Dolby Atmos vs DTS X? Specifically which format is better for different types of home cinema's
Both formats are really good and similar in how they perform in the home theater environment at this time. DTS to our knowledge hasn't yet enabled some of the more advanced features it promises like (speaker remapping, and dialogue increase) on any current generation hardware NOR in the actual media. We will revisit this topic when there is news to report.
the time is now! lol
Should I add the bouncy x.x.2 speakers? My avr supports it. Does it make any difference?
I just recently upgraded my 25 year old Yamaha, there are a lot more options now.
So what should I use if I'm only running 4 speakers? I have klipsch lascalas for front left and right.. And 2 klipsch kg4's for rears.
I have a Sony BDV-E6100 theres sound mode on Dolby prologic DTS neo 6 cinema DTS neo 6 music and 2ch stereo if I leave it on sound mode on I'll have to use the remote to flick through sound fields it has auto,movie,music, digital music, and demo and there is a music eq rock and some others I can't remember and it plays Dolby digital Dolby digital plus, Dolby true hd, DTS , DTS hd-master audio , DTS hd- high resolution audio Mann there are a lot I can't remember but this is what I can this home cinema system sounds so good I'm in love with it because it has old sound fields like Dolby pro logic to the latest like Dolby true HD same goes for DTS side of things in it
Hello thanks for such great information but I do have a question and I have posted this question on your other videos about audio surroundsound speakers and receivers
I have a Marantz 9.2 surround sound set up I want my music to play out of all of my speakers how do I do that?
You forgot to mention the Direct and pure Direct which my Pioneer receiver has. Do you guys prefer surround on a 2 channel station?
I have never cared much for multi channel with music. Never sounded right to me. It always sounded better in two channel with good speaker placement. That is until Neural X came out. I have a basic 5.1 system with tower mains, a center and small surrounds. Then I mounted two extra speakers on the cieling just infront of me when atmos came out. The traditional 7.1 with them all on the ground wasn't much of an option for me because my room is pretty small. When my Denon updated the firmware and added neural X I tried it out. Holy crap does it sound good, even on two channel music. I was pretty amazed. I normally just leave it set to neural x now on everthing. Sometimes I switch it to two channel for certain music. Or I might use DD true or the DTS version of that for certain 4K movies. I recently moved my system into another room because my basement flooded (that sucked) and I don't have my cieling speakers mounted yet. It sounds ok, but I really need to get those mounted again. They really do make a difference for whatever reason.
I have always thought DTS sounded better on movies if it was an option. Better bass and more dynamic range is what I hear. Also seems to be mixed differently. Dolby digital works well for low volume or night listening though. But now neural X with audyssey volume control turned on works much better for that. And I am 52 so I remember when surround first came out, and DSP choices. Always sounded hokey and fake to me, never liked it. It didn't become usable until Pro logic came out. And then only on stuff that was made for it. Stuff that was made for two channel always sounded better in two channel to me. Keep in mind I was only concerned with a single seat though I am pretty anal about getting my main channels in the correct positions for imaging.
In my listening room the DTS formats always work better than Dolby. I like to change it up but always come back to DTS.
What about Sony's SDDS? Why don't receivers or home media use it?
I believe it was intended for the cinema only. I've never seen a consumer version of SDDS.
how can i get a toro commercial movie theater amplifier in the house & what should i need
What happen too Hugo? This is the last video hes in.
I know you guys do 95% audio-related, but, could you do a video on 4K and HDR?
I still run just DD with an external amplifier. Would all these formats downscale to still work with the older format?
Another question I had was I've a denon 5.1 and I was wondering is there anyway I can get a splitter to make into a 7.1 speaker . Also I have a Bose double cube speaker and would recommend using them with my denon receiver
Question for Gene about biamping my front SVS towers with a yamaha aventage 3060. can I set different crossover points in the receiver to the amp channel to the mids/tweeters vs the channel to the (2) 8" woofers at the bottom of the towers?
Standard DTS vs. DTS master. Between those two in the 5.1 set up would there be a huge difference?
there IS a difference.. depends on ur ear.. to me its easy to distinguish...dtshd ma is just so pure, crystalline sounding, highly detailed...a sweet sound
Only missing THX...
I eventually went with a top-o-the-line Yamaha soundbar. A lot easier (safer) with a little one, and it is very satisfying. Augmented with a Big Paradigm sub. Dialogue is VERY intelligible. Sucks for music. You do have to have a room which has the right config for the sound to do all the best reflecting, etc.
So if we aren't getting true object based scale ability and positioning on at home atmos on the 7 base channels, only the heights, then it should still be fine and even possibly preferred to run bi-pole speakers on the side surrounds for spread and monopole or bipole on the rear surrounds dependent on distance from the seats? Mono at say over 8 feet and bipole at less then 8 give or take?
Hi, getting back into stereo setup etc., i remember back in the day hitting up thrift stores and good wills to find gems. So i have this onkyo A/v reciever using my XBOX One S, through hdmi it picks up PCM?! ...yet i can use the optical out from xbox and then get Either DTS NEO or pro logic 2, which one is better. I have a 5.1 setup meaning 5 speakers, powered SUB. Few things could you unless u have already, go in more depth on these surround Types... i would like the one where the rear ch, play what's behind based on your perspective (game/ movie) ...
@Scott 1 yes that does thx, after i wrote this sometime, few things happen found out bout atmos, my receiver had an atmos update. Under that same xbox menu, you can set it to an atmos setting, wel here is my problem. Im not sure atmos is as great as it seems or makes itself. Note, all done through xbox1 S.... the main general problem im setting movies and games as like, is the center ch, seems weak, or movie vocals hard to hear, but like every backdrop sound explosion etc very loud. Ok fallout 4, idk maybe its me, firing a weapon is louder everywhere but right in front of you... My onkyo is 7.1 rdy has connections for what is called ( back or height) .. IDK if it's me, but back in the Playstation 1 days, and 5.1 being main choice, things just worked with out all this complexity heh ...
Games don't bother me, but not being able to hear voices or dialog is irradiating. Ok turn volume up right, then a explosion blows your speakers out lol, ohh ok set to all mono or stereo (but then what's the point in surround systems) lol .... yes ok go into xbox menu every time before movie set it to 5.1 or 7.1 idk ...i i kinda gave up ...take break my brain hurts lol ...but really do thank you ...
Thank you, ive only tried messing with that very lil .... i will look into this deeper
Dolby digital plus or pro logic ii x?
DD+ is a high bitrate format ...pl 2x is just adding 7.1 processing to any existing input, be it stereo or DD or even DD+....i would rather have high bitrate DD+ vs low bitrate pl2x processing, even though it will add to stereo back channels...
Some upmixing decoders not mentioned was Circle surround and logic 7 how did these compare to prologic 2 and dts neo 6? Also how about Audyssey DSX? BTW love the cinema chairs what brand are they?Maybe Audioholics could do a review of cinema seats in the future....
Shaz yea there are just too many damn formats to cover :) WE tried to stick with the mainstream ones most folks could identify with. The chairs in the video are from Continental Seating. Great suggestion. thx.
Logic 7 is the absolute best matrix surround decoder
Gene could you please do a review for the newly launched Onkyo HT-S3800 5.1 ?? I am planning to get this HTiB soon, thanks
Very interesting how Atmos at home isn't full atmos like in the cinema, rather an extension of True Hd.
I actually didn't like Atmos after setting it up with 4 on ceiling speakers and got rid of it.
I used the money to upgrade my speakers for 5.2 instead and got a much better experience.
RA DZ what mode do you have your speakers in now?
thank you very informative. how about prologic II?? same as prologic? I noticed on plogic 2 center channel sounds kinda far away
We did cover PLII in the video and the related editorial, see:
www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/surroud-sound-formats
Just recently upgraded to definitive technology bp9080.is that a wise choice for Dolby Atmos.?
Receiver: Marantz SR5011 - Just added KLIPSCH 450C center channel, KLIPSCH RP280FA's for the left and right and im trying to just make sure i get the best sound possible from them w/ the correct mode while watching tv / movies. Modes available on receiver: Stereo, Mult ch in, Mult in + dolby surround, Mult in Neural:X, Multi CH stereo, Virtual. what would you recommend?
I think you missed the THX format from lukas arts used in star wars
THX is a post processing not an actual format but yes it should be mentioned as a viable upmixer if products that are THX certified.
How is Auromatic upmixer? Does it smell good:)? Is it worth the $200 upgrade on a Denon receiver?
@Audionolics; so the AVR receiver will find the format available through a digital signal from the blue ray, cable box/dish, or internet(netflix). I can then go into the sound format with my avr remote and choose the format for programming I am watching. In other words there is nothing in my avr set up I need to change to access all available sound formats? I have denon x2000 for reference.