I think a lot of people will end up misunderstanding the "+jump -jump" section of your video, so I'll clarify. The reason why this makes it RNG is because the server cannot register both of these commands on the same tick. This means even if you have the perfect scrolling rate burned into your muscle memory, if you start scrolling early (and I mean one tick early) your entire set of +jump -jump commands are misaligned with the tick where you actually hit the ground, and lose all your speed. Fantastic video though, when I saw that Shazam clip I wanted to make the same thing
forest has explained it like this for years, but I've never been confident in this explanation. It implies that if all other conditions are perfect, there will be a 50/50 chance for each jump to be a perf - but if you look at the perf rate for the best kz/scroll players it is way beyond 50% - there are examples in this very video of people hitting many perfs in a row and they'll do this frequently, it's not a crazy fluke like flipping 10 heads in a row
@@Adam4 there are two big scenarios.. The player gambles a 50/50 by scrolling (which assumes they have perfect scroll speed), or they try to start their +jump command on just the right tick when a ~0.01ms difference would cause them to miss the perf and lose speed due to friction. Kz scroll players are just aided by plugins that attempt to remove this 50/50 gamble by increasing the odds.. the fact that they hit many perfs in a row because of this doesn't mean they are getting around the limitations of the game (and human reaction times), or that we are wrong
Forest is a extremely analytical and smart player in every game I’ve ever played with him. The stuff he told me as a 17 year old holds up for me today, and he is mechanically a freak. Super well made video.
One of the main differences that I see between scrolling and autobhop is focus in strafing. One is focused on distance, the other is focused on speed. Different focuses, different skillsets. Great vid, forest. Layed out all my thoughts about the gamemode perfectly.
hey, im not gonna lie with my bias against the community, i didn't think it'd actually be able to convince most people but with editting and how indepth this is, there's really no way to argue against it anymore, good video guys and ty cause that shazam clip kinda triggered me
That clip is rly sad, most of us put so much effort into long maps (often weeks/months/years) only for it all to be disregarded by someone who has little to no understanding of the game. Especially since ivy remains as one of the greatest achievements in bhop ever
just randomly came across this looking for one of the lego maps ive done really nicely on a few years on, ive always autohopped and never will switch. But i did not expect to learn something new, even if ive been bhopping since 2014, i understood you need to have narrow turns high speeds but i didn't know it made that much of a difference to be so wide at low speeds, definitely going to improve from this. Incredible video all around
this is brilliant. it'd be amazing if the pro players and popular streamers/youtubers watch this and talk about this. remember, I was here before it blew up.
Then there is me, who have been playing autobhop for almost 7 years, and I can't hit a single 620 ssj, and barely hit 600 in a straight line, but I still enyoi bhop, and from 2013 till now, the bhop have really gotten into a whole other level.
i opened the description and saw myself linked and expected to see some epic kz clip, so i watched the video only to find out that it's me failing the same section 17 times in a row lmao.. but yea awesome video :) i think that kz/scroll is just as skillful when you remove the rng aspect by opting into styles like _strafe, 400 cap or fairscroll -- but that's me
lmfaoo sorry we had to do you like that shavit. if anyone opens your channel and watches your videos they will find out that you're actually a beast so it's okay.
I wish there was a gametype or standalone game that brought all the different skill-based movement mechanics together. Concing, ledging, bhop, surfing, kz, and escape. This would be the pinnacle of skill to combine these all.
When you try to replicate these run from Autobop records/good runs you quickly find out that it still takes tons of skill/practice. Never understood the autohop= ez approach
I favorited and come back to this video often. If you look for anything bhop related on TH-cam - there is very little content that goes in depth on strafing, mechanics, or just skill based movement in general.
wouldve been cool to show that not only does autobhop take skill but also how one can take that skill further into offstyles such as hsw, sw, and single key only styles. very well made video and am very glad someone took the time to make this!
I was waiting for someone to make a video like this and of course it's the man himself. Now instead of explaining when people say this takes no skill, I can just link this. :)
Auto bhop in Counter-Strike is a skillful act in its own right. Achieving perfect strafes at high speed requires precision, which isn't easy. However, it's important to remember that CS is fundamentally a shooting game, not a high-speed bhopping simulator. While auto bhop demands skill, scroll jumping aligns more with the intended mechanics of the game and offers a fair advantage in competitive play. Auto bhop might enhance speed, but in the context of CS, it’s more about mastering the core gameplay elements, not exploiting mechanics that weren’t originally designed for competitive use.
kz is great and extremelly useful for the actual game, but the true art and epitome of gaming movement belongs to Surf and Bhop. Thank you for this amazing video lml
the two styles are incomparable yet often the victim of being compared to one another using scroll mechanics as a metric of difficulty. the truth of the matter is you can't, they're mutually exclusive gamemodes that individually boast their own set of difficulties. with autobhop, you will be moving much faster than would ever be possible in scroll, which makes performing routes more difficult in an aspect that would never be present in scroll, i.e. having to land on a peg sitting on the adjacent side of a wall at 1500vel while minding 64's and other means of technicality that become present when removing rng as a factor and introducing speed. sure, holding spacebar doesn't take skill, but the challenges posed by introducing a different movement style are very real
yeah I feel like it's most often the people who are bad at both styles comparing them and saying kz is more difficult, which would be true if u were to compare how easy it is to just complete maps in bhop vs kz. if it was just simply going from point A to point Z without caring about the timer at all, not optimising the route or anything kz would've been more difficult, but that's not really how u play either mode so that's that
I wish you would’ve spoken to m4dara or another good scroller to show that even they would agree with your scroll argument or help add that scroll player viewpoint
Not that it's too important but the optimal yaw, as a function of speed is sin^-1(30/x). That will give you your optimal delta-yaw for one frame. The derivative of that would give you your angular acceleration. The constant 30 comes from your wish velocity. It's the reason why you can't go below 30u/s by stopping with movement keys.
Awesome. I considered reaching out to gocnak for the exact information, I knew it was something trigonometric but couldn't figure it out on my own. In the end, I decided to just use an approximate and basic model for the sake of being easily understood, though. I'll definitely be keeping this information in my back pocket. Thanks.
@@ForestBHOP "maximum possible turning rate is asin(|t*a|/|v|)/t degrees per second, and it is achieved at angle theta = acos(-|t*a|/(2*|v|)) given: t = interval per tick (gpGlobals->frametime) v = current velocity of player a = air acceleration factor (u/sec^2) (accel * wishspeed) OR calc it experimentally (from table below) To calculate a: given a cl_yawspeed theta and steady state velocity v, a = 2*pi*v*theta/360. airaccelerate 1000, 100 tick (t = 0.010) cl_yawspeed velocity calculated accel 360 955 6000 200 1719 6000 airaccelerate 150, 66 tick (t = 0.015) cl_yawspeed velocity calculated accel 360 637 4002 200 1146 4000 t*a = 60 in both cases." Credit to tuxxi and whoever else was involved if it wasn't tuxxi alone that wrote this for me
i didnt really understand the explanation of how theres a 50% chance of a scroll being a perf. does this mean you did a successful coin toss for every jump in the 2:39 clip? i always scrolled in the past and considered the extra factor it adds just more interesting to me (and makes it more applicable to ZE and stuff that I play often) but i'd be disappointed to find that even when I was getting perfs over and over it wasn't actually me doing it.
It's interesting how much emphasis you've put on strafing, I feel like you haven't done justice to how much more skill is involved in route execution. Good video nonetheless
My hope was that the clips we chose would speak for themselves. I didn't want to be overly analytical in that section. That is for another time -- maybe if we choose to do a video on the history of a certain map.
@@ForestBHOP It would be great if you went in-depth on a certain map, people generally don't understand how hard a speedrun is just from viewing it. For me personally I have to try out the route to understand exactly how hard it is, so for someone new to bhop a video like that would really give them a glimpse into the true difficulty of what they are watching. Roger has actually done a similar idea where he breaks down his route on exodus, might be a good reference if you decide to do it. th-cam.com/video/9KR779aVtAE/w-d-xo.html
It's interesting how much emphasis you've put on routing, I feel like you haven't done justice to how much more skill is involved in strafe execution. Good comment nonetheless
I've played source games for eight years and I didn't realize the amount of depth to strafing there was or the metrics to measure quality vs poor strafing. The visual aides also helped cement the ideas in place along with the thorough yet concise explanations.
coming from someone with 300+ wrs on sneakz server csgo, bhopping on gmod and css and owning a bhop channel and knowing pros, etc. autohop definately takes skill and hitting crazy global routes are even harder, i think bhop will always be better and harder then surf aswell. if you take a bhopper and put him in surf he gon do way better then a surfer going to bhop lol, the diffrerence would be quite sad actually.. anyways i love yall
I allways thought autohop is superior and those who scroll are just stuck in a self harming loop. Finally someone qualified speaks up. Autohop runs take tons of skill
Idk i think if this video only was made because of Shazam's comment, it is kinda overreacting, because we are talking about a washed up Ex-CS:GO pro who is playing Valorant or whatever the hell nowadays. Clueless people like him are best ignored when they make statements like this. On the other hand, I really have to thank him, since his statement led to this video and I found it very interesting, as I only play surf, but hold pro bhoppers in high respect for what they can do. Good bhoppers can rip any gamemode if they wanted to, and looking at (for example) top surfers today, it has already happened in my gamemode a couple if not more times.
Too much effort, i only made this video cus forest said he wrote a script and i wanted to help him out, i might end up making an aim tutorial or something with a similar style of editing soon tho. Also based scen
I think a lot of people will end up misunderstanding the "+jump -jump" section of your video, so I'll clarify. The reason why this makes it RNG is because the server cannot register both of these commands on the same tick. This means even if you have the perfect scrolling rate burned into your muscle memory, if you start scrolling early (and I mean one tick early) your entire set of +jump -jump commands are misaligned with the tick where you actually hit the ground, and lose all your speed. Fantastic video though, when I saw that Shazam clip I wanted to make the same thing
we had a little animation that’ cleared up the section but ended up removing it for some reason, ty for comment tho
its rng because +jump is pressing space
-jump is releasing space
@@blob5907 It's the opposite. Space causes the plus jump command. But that's not why it's rng
forest has explained it like this for years, but I've never been confident in this explanation. It implies that if all other conditions are perfect, there will be a 50/50 chance for each jump to be a perf - but if you look at the perf rate for the best kz/scroll players it is way beyond 50% - there are examples in this very video of people hitting many perfs in a row and they'll do this frequently, it's not a crazy fluke like flipping 10 heads in a row
@@Adam4 there are two big scenarios.. The player gambles a 50/50 by scrolling (which assumes they have perfect scroll speed), or they try to start their +jump command on just the right tick when a ~0.01ms difference would cause them to miss the perf and lose speed due to friction.
Kz scroll players are just aided by plugins that attempt to remove this 50/50 gamble by increasing the odds.. the fact that they hit many perfs in a row because of this doesn't mean they are getting around the limitations of the game (and human reaction times), or that we are wrong
yo wth this video actually insanely good
aN VeRiFieD YUTuba wIth 240k subs and no replys
"in fact, its me"
that hit hard whoever was still doubting haha
You wouldn't think bhop:ing would correlate much to anything outside of it, really interesting unraveling at that.
Forest is a extremely analytical and smart player in every game I’ve ever played with him. The stuff he told me as a 17 year old holds up for me today, and he is mechanically a freak. Super well made video.
FaZe up my g bhop on 💯😤
felt like i was watching a proper documentary good stuff
Agreed
Holy based forest asmr
This is literally the last thing I expected to see on your channel. But hell, I am absolutely not disappointed, this is great content.
good, clear explanations. editing was epic too
Thanks for the feature. Great video and production!
One of the main differences that I see between scrolling and autobhop is focus in strafing. One is focused on distance, the other is focused on speed. Different focuses, different skillsets.
Great vid, forest. Layed out all my thoughts about the gamemode perfectly.
hope there's gonna be more content like this, really enjoyed it :>
hey, im not gonna lie with my bias against the community, i didn't think it'd actually be able to convince most people but with editting and how indepth this is, there's really no way to argue against it anymore, good video guys and ty cause that shazam clip kinda triggered me
That clip is rly sad, most of us put so much effort into long maps (often weeks/months/years) only for it all to be disregarded by someone who has little to no understanding of the game. Especially since ivy remains as one of the greatest achievements in bhop ever
shazam = naive
@@rogerhahalol What are you referring to? What is ivy? :p
@@stod9572 th-cam.com/video/kf5ON8qilfo/w-d-xo.html this run
this vid is gonna blow up with this level of editing btw
well articulated forest, very well done
I expected this to be a meme video, but it was actually very well made and researched.
just randomly came across this looking for one of the lego maps ive done really nicely on a few years on, ive always autohopped and never will switch. But i did not expect to learn something new, even if ive been bhopping since 2014, i understood you need to have narrow turns high speeds but i didn't know it made that much of a difference to be so wide at low speeds, definitely going to improve from this. Incredible video all around
this is brilliant. it'd be amazing if the pro players and popular streamers/youtubers watch this and talk about this. remember, I was here before it blew up.
Great video! Hopefully this gets viewed a lot so this misconception can finally be cleared.
jeez 60%+ on tali is insane, even more insane if its dechanic control. definitely made me appreciate the smoothness of strafes a lot more now
the instrumetal matches so well with his voice, gave me chills.
LOL
This is really really well made - credit to you both
Then there is me, who have been playing autobhop for almost 7 years, and I can't hit a single 620 ssj, and barely hit 600 in a straight line, but I still enyoi bhop, and from 2013 till now, the bhop have really gotten into a whole other level.
I'd be down for more experimental videos like this, pretty cool stuff
i opened the description and saw myself linked and expected to see some epic kz clip, so i watched the video only to find out that it's me failing the same section 17 times in a row lmao.. but yea awesome video :) i think that kz/scroll is just as skillful when you remove the rng aspect by opting into styles like _strafe, 400 cap or fairscroll -- but that's me
lmfaoo sorry we had to do you like that shavit. if anyone opens your channel and watches your videos they will find out that you're actually a beast so it's okay.
Your voice is very relaxing bro good vid !
Thanks for making this video! And for the bhop community!!
very well made video, good shit from you and forest, can't fault it
ty for commenting, can link u in desc now hehe
Shows Lemin: "or others". That made me laugh harder than it should lmfao. 2 years late but this came in my recommended somehow
Shoutout Lemin
very good video, hope to see more soon
Modern day David Attenborough.
omg made it to the video!!
I wish there was a gametype or standalone game that brought all the different skill-based movement mechanics together. Concing, ledging, bhop, surfing, kz, and escape. This would be the pinnacle of skill to combine these all.
some zombie escape maps have a lot of that
I believe Momentum Mod is what are you looking for
I believe Momentum Mod is what you are looking for
There is a roblox game called 'combat surfing' which includes most of these elements
my man used the og bhop badges song, hell yea
this pretty cool, more vids like this would be sick to see
plz yt recommend it to everyone
'yeah ez with auto-bunnyhop, no skills'
*PB on bhop_atom 02.12.897* :KEKW:
I'm glad somebody sent me this video on discord. Nice editing, cool nieche topic :D
When you try to replicate these run from Autobop records/good runs you quickly find out that it still takes tons of skill/practice. Never understood the autohop= ez approach
This has to blow up, what a great video, shame it only has 2k views... .-.
I favorited and come back to this video often. If you look for anything bhop related on TH-cam - there is very little content that goes in depth on strafing, mechanics, or just skill based movement in general.
good stuff :) only found this now
wouldve been cool to show that not only does autobhop take skill but also how one can take that skill further into offstyles such as hsw, sw, and single key only styles. very well made video and am very glad someone took the time to make this!
Ye man w only rocks 🤩💯💪👌👌👌👌
glad someone finally made a video on this
This video was so clean and relaxing
Scrub just posted a documentary
This isn't what I subbed for, but I'm glad I did
Also forest has a godly voice
This is friggin epic
Ah yes, *sips expensive coffee*, indubitably.
Hell yeah! Great video guys. Amazing work.
OH SHIT I thought it'd be a meme video but this is insanely well done. GOOD JOB BOYS YES YES YESYES
really good video bois
I was waiting for someone to make a video like this and of course it's the man himself. Now instead of explaining when people say this takes no skill, I can just link this. :)
1:47 would this mean if i bind mwheelup -jump and mwheeldown +jump i could keep scrolling up and down and i would hit every bhop
this is such a good video i cant believe it took me so long to watch it
This video is really good, you should make more of these style vids.
Auto bhop in Counter-Strike is a skillful act in its own right. Achieving perfect strafes at high speed requires precision, which isn't easy. However, it's important to remember that CS is fundamentally a shooting game, not a high-speed bhopping simulator. While auto bhop demands skill, scroll jumping aligns more with the intended mechanics of the game and offers a fair advantage in competitive play. Auto bhop might enhance speed, but in the context of CS, it’s more about mastering the core gameplay elements, not exploiting mechanics that weren’t originally designed for competitive use.
kz is great and extremelly useful for the actual game, but the true art and epitome of gaming movement belongs to Surf and Bhop.
Thank you for this amazing video lml
awesome video, thankyou.
really enjoyable video! great work
as a kz player you just completely changed my opinion on autobhop, well done
You're an idiot to ever think autohop was no skill.
This video made me beat bhop_arcane WR
why was this ever a question lmao
still waiting on that 1v1 aim map
7:51 BreakRaidz
ButHasAidz
Amazing video dude
amazing video ^___^
3:23 ouch (jk), Fantastic video :D
tf didnt see the video at all in my sub bar but loved it
the two styles are incomparable yet often the victim of being compared to one another using scroll mechanics as a metric of difficulty. the truth of the matter is you can't, they're mutually exclusive gamemodes that individually boast their own set of difficulties. with autobhop, you will be moving much faster than would ever be possible in scroll, which makes performing routes more difficult in an aspect that would never be present in scroll, i.e. having to land on a peg sitting on the adjacent side of a wall at 1500vel while minding 64's and other means of technicality that become present when removing rng as a factor and introducing speed. sure, holding spacebar doesn't take skill, but the challenges posed by introducing a different movement style are very real
yeah I feel like it's most often the people who are bad at both styles comparing them and saying kz is more difficult, which would be true if u were to compare how easy it is to just complete maps in bhop vs kz. if it was just simply going from point A to point Z without caring about the timer at all, not optimising the route or anything kz would've been more difficult, but that's not really how u play either mode so that's that
i loved this. thank you. miss ya forest
great job boys :)
I wish you would’ve spoken to m4dara or another good scroller to show that even they would agree with your scroll argument or help add that scroll player viewpoint
Not that it's too important but the optimal yaw, as a function of speed is sin^-1(30/x). That will give you your optimal delta-yaw for one frame. The derivative of that would give you your angular acceleration.
The constant 30 comes from your wish velocity. It's the reason why you can't go below 30u/s by stopping with movement keys.
huge brain 🧠
Awesome. I considered reaching out to gocnak for the exact information, I knew it was something trigonometric but couldn't figure it out on my own. In the end, I decided to just use an approximate and basic model for the sake of being easily understood, though. I'll definitely be keeping this information in my back pocket. Thanks.
@@ForestBHOP
"maximum possible turning rate is asin(|t*a|/|v|)/t degrees per second, and it is achieved at angle theta = acos(-|t*a|/(2*|v|))
given:
t = interval per tick (gpGlobals->frametime)
v = current velocity of player
a = air acceleration factor (u/sec^2) (accel * wishspeed) OR calc it experimentally (from table below)
To calculate a: given a cl_yawspeed theta and steady state velocity v,
a = 2*pi*v*theta/360.
airaccelerate 1000, 100 tick (t = 0.010)
cl_yawspeed velocity calculated accel
360 955 6000
200 1719 6000
airaccelerate 150, 66 tick (t = 0.015)
cl_yawspeed velocity calculated accel
360 637 4002
200 1146 4000
t*a = 60 in both cases."
Credit to tuxxi and whoever else was involved if it wasn't tuxxi alone that wrote this for me
your names forest now o_O
Great video!
Is this you 6:43 if so than GOD DAMN YOU ARE SO GOOD
bhop_badges soundtrack
i didnt really understand the explanation of how theres a 50% chance of a scroll being a perf. does this mean you did a successful coin toss for every jump in the 2:39 clip? i always scrolled in the past and considered the extra factor it adds just more interesting to me (and makes it more applicable to ZE and stuff that I play often) but i'd be disappointed to find that even when I was getting perfs over and over it wasn't actually me doing it.
I really liked this video!
awesome video! what map is Lemin playing at 11:40ish?
bhop_enmity
@@Lemon_1337 thanks legend
any servers using the strafe trainer still?
It's interesting how much emphasis you've put on strafing, I feel like you haven't done justice to how much more skill is involved in route execution. Good video nonetheless
My hope was that the clips we chose would speak for themselves. I didn't want to be overly analytical in that section. That is for another time -- maybe if we choose to do a video on the history of a certain map.
@@ForestBHOP It would be great if you went in-depth on a certain map, people generally don't understand how hard a speedrun is just from viewing it. For me personally I have to try out the route to understand exactly how hard it is, so for someone new to bhop a video like that would really give them a glimpse into the true difficulty of what they are watching. Roger has actually done a similar idea where he breaks down his route on exodus, might be a good reference if you decide to do it. th-cam.com/video/9KR779aVtAE/w-d-xo.html
It's interesting how much emphasis you've put on routing, I feel like you haven't done justice to how much more skill is involved in strafe execution. Good comment nonetheless
imagine calling anyones run shiity when you dont even have 1 record :joy:
wtf the g is here 0_0 bhop g
@@jukedbhop mornin
Very well made video!
Forest you should be a writer.
Since when does a music recognition software’s opinion ever meant anything? 🤔
Jumping is definitely the hardest part about bhop -_-
Facts G
I really hope this video gets the attention it deserves.
I've played source games for eight years and I didn't realize the amount of depth to strafing there was or the metrics to measure quality vs poor strafing. The visual aides also helped cement the ideas in place along with the thorough yet concise explanations.
insane video thank you forest
coming from someone with 300+ wrs on sneakz server csgo, bhopping on gmod and css and owning a bhop channel and knowing pros, etc. autohop definately takes skill and hitting crazy global routes are even harder, i think bhop will always be better and harder then surf aswell. if you take a bhopper and put him in surf he gon do way better then a surfer going to bhop lol, the diffrerence would be quite sad actually.. anyways i love yall
I allways thought autohop is superior and those who scroll are just stuck in a self harming loop. Finally someone qualified speaks up. Autohop runs take tons of skill
Idk i think if this video only was made because of Shazam's comment, it is kinda overreacting, because we are talking about a washed up Ex-CS:GO pro who is playing Valorant or whatever the hell nowadays. Clueless people like him are best ignored when they make statements like this.
On the other hand, I really have to thank him, since his statement led to this video and I found it very interesting, as I only play surf, but hold pro bhoppers in high respect for what they can do.
Good bhoppers can rip any gamemode if they wanted to, and looking at (for example) top surfers today, it has already happened in my gamemode a couple if not more times.
ok no need to get philosophical scrublel...
Finally :)
nice video respect g
jumpscared me with my own hand fucker, nice content
beautiful
this video is so good
lego journey bgm?
Very nice video :^)
6:45 das my scen
7:51 based juji clip
good video. now just make one of these a week and you'll have 100k subs in no time (:
Too much effort, i only made this video cus forest said he wrote a script and i wanted to help him out, i might end up making an aim tutorial or something with a similar style of editing soon tho. Also based scen