@@MetaNerdzLore Ashoka seems to be facing flak fire, during her attempt to break the blockade above Ryloth, but from where do you think it's coming from? My guess would be the Munificents.
@@arandomperson7713 nope. The maus would have had a 128, but the königstiger only ever saw service with an (improved) 88. There had been plans to give it a 105, but those never happened
Flak in my opinion will be more affective because of structural damage. The problem with blasters is that use heat, and most ships in Star Wars are heat resistance because of both entry and exiting of the atmosphere. So it will be logical for the usage ballistics is a better use in destroying ships.
Hey Metanerdz, a WW2 geek here, on Ryloth the shells that took down the Acclamator are probably the same shells exploding in front/around the gunships (both are high explosive (HE for short)). Technically any shell can be an Anti-aircraft (AA) shell as long as your using the right fuses (a VT fuse, proximity fuse, etc) and HE shells make for very good AA shells because the concussion of the large explosion can damage aircraft and the shrapnel (formerly known as the shell body) is sent flying at a much higher velocity. I'm not sure if you know this but shells can have multiple fuses (AA shells almost always have 2 fuses at least). Those proton shells almost certainly have a proximity or contact fuse (if I recall correctly the WW2 proximity fuses contained a contact detonator for direct hits as well) in the nose and a VT fuse in the back so they explode at a certain altitude.
I always wondered why ever ship over frigate size didn't have at least a few flak guns cause most star wars shields where made to just stop energy based weapons
Most of them are also particle shields that prevent things like micrometeors from punching holes in the computers, fuel lines, and/or brainpans of the fighters. So Flak would still be effective, just not much more than lasers.
Mass drivers have always been a weapon meant to exploit this shield weakness since in starwars personal protection is extremely far behind the lethality of weaponry.
@@KillerOrca Considering there exist mass driver based weaponry thats the size of ships no a mac as strong as it is isnt something thats gonna destroy anything better. Id might add that UNSC ships whould be cut in half by mass driver hits. Since ships generally have alot more then one mass driver.
With the psychological element, AA machine guns or cannons (the lower caliber ones) firing tracers served the same function as flak, in that they made enemy pilots maneuver to avoid it. It's sort of like a physical manifestation of their fear- if an AA gun wasn't firing tracers (an example being the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse), then enemy pilots would be more daring and/or more careful/deliberate with their aim as would normally be the case (as seeing a bullet in flight, no matter the caliber, is impossible).
Also, don't forget two key components to AA: flak is really good at destroying un-armored, metal aircraft. It is not nearly as effective against canvas aircraft unless the pilot is killed directly (not just wounded or mortally wounded). It is also struggles to deal with armored aircraft unless the explosion was close enough. I would imagine that the issue with flak in space is that it suddenly becomes very likely that your flak will begin killing your fighters. If I was to make a guess, they likely aim flak in a manner that the cone is sent towards formations of enemy strike craft instead of in a sphere.
At 1:13, the two types shown are HE (left) and Cluster (right) Shells - the HE shell's explosion comes with shrapnel (the shell chunks). The Cluster shells release numerous smaller bomblets that explode or otherwise cause damage further, but on a small individual scale. ("Shrapnel" shells are typically HE shells with additional metal to act as shrapnel, though bomblets in cluster munitions can also have this same effect, as the individual bomblets are typically High Explosives). High Explosives shells are NOT Incendiary Shells. Incendiary ammo is designed to ignite, not explode.
So I had a couple of thoughts during the video. The first is this. The primary reason that flak exists is because it produces some of the most distinctive and visually impressive scenes of warfare IRL. Mentioning it brings to mind those images of tension and danger as black clouds burst around you. The primary reason they were added to the franchise was their tremendous visuals. Second, having shrapnel effect in space may not be a good idea because of how much more powerful it is. The vulture droids were unshielded and if you have simple 360 burst shells then a lot of that shrapnel would be flying around into your own ships. It would certainly be denser at the point of detonation but still quite danger at a mile off. Third, what we may be seeing with the ammo is the difference between a compressed plasma round vs a contained one. When the artillery doesn’t need to reload it may be firing like an oversized blaster but with a weakened field holding the plasma together. At a certain distance the plasma breaks free and gives you the flak effect. With the heavier rounds the canisters are packed with tightly compressed plasma, far more than the gun could possibly handle. This is propelled to altitude where it’s fuse releases the stored plasma. Blowing up in a large spherical AoE. Lastly, two improvements. I just realized that the buzz droids were likely reclaimed after battle and placed into new discord missiles. Also, having shotgun effect shrapnel rounds would be highly effective in space.
Two notes: 1)Those big artillery shells are shown to be _ejected_ from the ship-board guns- I'd guess they're just containers for materisls, e.g. powr cells, some lubricants for the gun, and maybe some material to build the "shrapnel source" from. 2) There's no particular reason that a shrapnel shell couldn't itself generate a focussed conical blast instead of a spherical one.
@@absalomdraconis good notes, I should rephrase my third point. "With the heavier rounds the canisters are packed with tightly compressed plasma, far more than the gun could possibly handle. This is propelled to altitude where it’s fuse releases the stored plasma." was supposed to mean that the compressed plasma within the canister was propelled and not the canister itself. On the second note, I realize that shrapnel shells are perfectly capable of being focused, the type pictured in canon shows no indication however and seems to be the unfocused style in order to give the puffball appearance. Love the response btw. It's always nice to have civil comments these days.
I couldn't find a source on star fighters only having ray shields so I don't know where this is coming from. Also, I think flak is simply not as effective against durasteel or deflector shields (particle shield part of it) which is used to safe the craft from space debris going at a fracture of Lightspeed through space (which is not truly empty to begin with). Also the CIS ground canons are very close in appearance to the board guns of the Invisible hand in Episode 3 and as far as I can remember these are classified as "proton guns?". So I think all these explosions in the battle of Corusant or the clone wars series aren't actually old school "regular" explosives and more akin to explosive energy weapons.
The guns could fire different types of munitions and the flak-explosives could be powered by protons on Ryloth. The shrapnel from flak have a possibility to overload the ray shields (however slight), hence psychologically affecting pilots (lose shield = closer to death) who should really worry more about their deflector shields from the more common tibanna fire. Firing 'smart' (tracks opponents' signals, strikes when possible, and avoids hitting other targets to keep going) missiles right after a debris shower which *may* may have confused the ray/particle shields (thus weakening them in certain areas because the shielding energy must focus on a hit point {(s), where there may be multiple of, considering this is flak}, thus slightly lowering shielding capabilities in other areas in general) could result in a direct hit, which, depending on the hull of the ship (durasteel, transparateel{windows}, doonium etc.), inflict kinetic force, would damage systems, or utterly annihilate the ship (if badly damaged beforehand/crucial systems hit/unshielded).
If you think 12,000 shells for one downed aircraft is bad, look up the statistics for rifles. For every 50,000 rounds of ammunition only one enemy combatant is injured/killed. Ammunition is meant to be expendable, preferably expended at the enemy. Great video as always, love the comparison to the real life items of inspiration
It is worth mentioning that in Star Wars Battlefront II You actually are able to use ECM for certain starships (mainly bombers) to scramble targeting senors especially for missiles.
The J-1s don't really have to fire different "shells". 1 type can very well have multiple uses. The shell or energy blast that it fires can very well be designed to be effective both against large targets on direct hits or take out smaller targets in a radious. In fact, there are real life weapons that work this way. The Abrams for example has a multi purpose shell that has a HEAT warhead for destroying lighter armored vehicles, shrapnel for soft targets and even a proximity fuse so it can be used against low flying helicopters.
Ben Harding how could you not I mean the empire is based off of the Nazis their premier troops are stormtroopers, the E11, the Heavy blaster rifles, Hans gun etc are all modified WW2 era guns
No more weird than people like me watching those WW2 videos that are meant to introduce pilots to new aircraft. I don't think I'll ever be behind the stick of Douglas A-20 but thanks to TH-cam I know its unique flight characteristics.
I wonder if they got the "home-on-jamming" in Star Wars, given the significant amount of ECM in the show. Would be interesting to read about other ECCM in Star Wars as well.
I could see a variant of ARC-170 and TIE-Bomber performing such role. ARC-170 have so much internal space and several crew inside that fitting more EW equipments inside, and you can swap out the entire bomb pod for dedicated EW pod. I used to imagine a Wild Weasel TIE squad composed of a few TIE with such modifications (which I called TIE Growler) leading a wing of TIE Bombers with modified missile launchers. The TIE Growler would cut through the jamming while sending data to the rest of TIE Bomber, which their missile will target all hostile anti-starfighter defensive mechanism. I never explore such idea further, though.
@@PaiSAMSEN I SWEAR I remember something like that being a thing in Legends. Might have been a Recon X-Wing though. I think in legends the ARC's nose was actually for that, along with sensor and recon stuff. And those Wild Weasel TIEs sound AMAZING
I have been wonder what this crap was even called since I was 5 thank you so much. I have seen flak in old war films, marvel movies, star wars and tons of other movie and never knew what it was called
Thing is, consider the nature of turbolasers, I don't think they need specialized flak ammunitions and weapons. Turbolaser work just fine. Since turbolaser bolt is basically plasma shell enveloped by handwavium energy, which collapse once the bolt impact the target. It should be possible to manipulate this energy field that it would collapse after certain time, which result in plasma inside exploding.
@@sukhoisu-24fencer3 yes but its a cannon, and as probably you know they were used in groups of ten, with various groups situeated in a linear path that the bombers would have done ti arrive to a factory or city, soo you dont have a single cannon firing 1r/3-4s but more than fifty cannon firing 50r/3-4s, and the 88 have more destructuve power than the bofors
@@Zretgul_timerunner beacouse It was imployed in the frontline and It was a machinegun, not a cannon, the same thing can be said about 20mm flak or 37mm flak, I was not talking about the historical data of kills, but about his effectines in general, you couldnt use the 40mm bofors on a squad of bombers that fly at more than 25km of altitude, meanwhile with a cannon like the 88mm you can
The one counter-effective consideration about flak in space is that while the shrapnel does not slow d/t the near perfect vacuum of space, it’s density as an aggregation of projectiles lessens with distance traveled over time.
This might come as spoiling Star Wars immersion, but there are proximity fuses that are impossible to disrupt using ECMs. They are called optical sensors. These days they are guite cheap. The only thing that can stop a optical sensor from working is a power outtage. I guess you could use an EMP to take that out but it wouldn't be the only thing going out. Pretty much everything about Star Wars space combat is nonpractical and requires specific explanations. I myself don't mind it that much as long as it is internally consistent. Your videos on the subject are quite informative and enjoyable. Keep it up!;)
@MetaNerdz Lore It should be pointed out that the difference between a HE shell and a Flak is the Fuse. One has a time fuse and the other a point impact detonation fuse. Modern fuses have both settings. So it is likely the same shell with the fuse sett differently.
On the topic of realistic military concepts in Star Wars weaponry, why didn't Star Destroyers have an "all or nothing" armour scheme. Basically instead of a large shield covering the entire ship, we have the shields concentrated on only the vital components of the ship, such as the engines and magazines (or wherever energy is stored for the turbo lasers and guns). The turbo laser batteries would then be concentrated in a cluster, protected by these strong shields, while everywhere else would be divided into many compartments. Doors between these compartments and rooms could be sealed automatically when penetrated. Also since lasers blasts are basically high explosive shells, double layered shields can be employed, with the first shield detonating the laser bolt while the other just absorbs the impact. A weaker smaller shield generator can then be employed to cover the rest of the ship. This "all or nothing" armour scheme was used during WWI and WWII in Battleships, the first ship using this type of armour scheme being USS Nevada. This works because medium armour covering the whole ship was found to be easily penetrated, while heavy armour covering only the vital parts would require the same amount of weight while being able to at least protect the vitals sufficiently. In Star Wars rather than saving weight we're saving energy output.
Another reason why the flak is not effective in ahsoka's run was deflector shield they already have them for micro asteroids so say shrapnel is flying around it's basically a micro asteroid.
Remember the starwars galaxy isnt in empty vacuum, its ether. Thats why ships fly like they're in atmosphere and why the engines have to keep burning or ships stop suddenly
I think the J1 cannons are using AP rounds for the Acclamators and for broadsides. But the laser flack seen during gunship runs are being shot by other cannons or droids simply due to the rate of fire of the flack. The time it takes to load the shells into the J1 cannons is far slower unless belt fed. On Ryloth they were manually loaded so I think there's just a droid like the spiders not being shown firing or something.
Well i dont have problems in pronouncing flak because i am german. ;) Great video! Good explaination! I knew a little bit but now i know more content of flaks in sw
5:57 Debunking time, shield's work like the Droideka shield's, They focus on the momentum, Velocity, And strength of the incoming projectile/threat, The harder it hits it the less overall chance of it going through, But higher of breaking. So if its slower, Then it passes right on through unlike HV (High Velocity) rounds, Making it to where the Shield's are Highly resistant to HV rounds, + they aren't a major organism. So the fighters shield's can be easily improved due to no risk of Radiation. Minus the pilot which probably has lead lining for the cock-pit.
Imagine just walking to your house on a planet in Star Wars and just get hit by a piece of shrapnel from flak halfway across the galaxy since the shrapnel doesn’t lose speed
Kinetic weapons are a thing in Star Wars, in Legends Republic & Imperial Commandos have often used rail guns or gauss rifles, which are the equivalent of the Barret 50 cal but on steroids to take out tanks and walkers, particle cannons are also a thing, sure they might be slow but they work, mass accelerators can be fitted on ships to launch guided torpedoes, that stream past the enemy ship and then veer right back into the engines, regular grenade launchers are a thing and so are common firearms, the only issue is ammo and range, but there are works around it, Clone Maries often favor scatter guns for breaching operation or boarding missions,
Also regarding the munitions used being around military arms. Those shells could also have a kind of multipurpose or even multi trigger warhead. As today we have a 57mm auto cannon from borfors the mk110 system thats shells have 6 detonation modes that you set electronically before firing plus there are many multi purpose munitions in cannon shells and in missiles that can do many different thing bu simply changing the detonation time or even that pack multiple warheads at once ie. tandem munitions. Just a little light shed onto this idea as with the advancements of star wars tech both could be true either the container can hold different shell types or the shell it self fires a multi purpose/programmable round as it doesnt have to be smart as the setting can be changed once chambered by the weapon according to the needs of the gunners allowing some to fire flak bursts and others APHE shells or what ever needed.
Looking at the flak firing scenes on Ryloth, I wonder if those CIS flak shells are actually several flak explosions wrapped into one shell. The cannon fires one shot and several projectiles scatter and then explode, increasing the surface area of the flak. Because otherwise it doesn't seem like the flak cannons on the ground are numerous and firing quickly enough to spread as much flak as they do.
Correct me if I'm rong Metta, but in the training video they said that the pressure caused by the explosion was ment to break the aircraft if it got to close kinda like a depth charge for the sky
Not related to Star Wars. But one of the reasons I loved the Battlestar Galactica remake was because they used artillery, missiles, and flak weapons instead of lasers. It made the space combat more believable and far more deadly, with friendly fire and getting stuck in the crosshairs being a common hazard. Truly one of the best shows in all of science fiction.
Smart Flak could work depending on the guidance mechanism, a more advanced "home on jam" mechanism could be a potential option, but does seem outside of the CIS doctrine (who we've seen using flak the most), where simpler mechanisms could be just as effective with a higher rate of fire.
Pretty sure most flak in star wars is just the superheated plasma exploding instead of sticking to it's bolt form as they really don't use projectiles besides a few slugthrowers. The ships are already designed to withstand micrometeors etc so flak debris wouldn't do much.
I'm happy that you don't try to speak the German words. I always get goose bumps when somebody trys to pronounce a German word an than butchering it beyond recognition. Edit: I know that has nothing to do with the topic but I recognize that in a lot of comic issues some imperials scream "halt". That's the German word for stop. I think in the issue where the mon cala overthrow their imperial leaders in the main star wars comic. When one stormtrooper was attacked by a group of angry fish's he screams "halt! Halt!" Has somebody an accplenation for that.
"Halt" is now a commonly used word in the English language derived from German. It still has the same meaning and is often used (in fiction) for scenarios relating to military operations. More on the English use of "halt" and a little more on its origins could be found by searching "halt meaning" on Google (might need browser language set to English). A dictionary box should then be on the top of the search page.
True I had a whole part written a out how much better the flak got toward the end but it was already such a long video and felt like I was getting off topic. But thanks for pointing that out especially on the Pacific I believe
If I remember correctly the Tiger Tanks main gun was a derivative of the 88 giving it excellent accuracy. There is an incident of a German tank shooting down a Russian dive bomber although there is no confirmed reports
I think that the j 1 proton cannon is kind of the tactical shotgun of star wars aa equipment that meaning that it could fire anything aa long aa it could be fit inside a shell witch is both terrifying and effective.
Episode 3 is my favorite (probably because it was the first I saw) but now I have a bunch of extra cool screenshots from the battle of coruscant to backup onto my laptop again
Using a flak type ammunition in space would be stupid as mentioned in the video it would continue going in all directions coming back at you and hitting your own ship because it's exploding in all directions
Ok, but FLAK cannons have one common problem: the relatively short range. They only start fire when the enemy aircraft are already on attack formation, bomb bays open, every pilot and navigator ready to drop the ordenance. Confusion, "fog of war", navigation and communication problems was common. But the aircrafts always have a safe area to "reform the ranks/close the order". This is why AA missiles are emerged. Missiles are could create full coverage. Aircrafts are under attack not only close to targets or other strategic areas, but everywhere over enemy territory. AA guns are concentrated around possible target areas, so they was very vulnerable to NUKE BOMB fallout. (The new toys...) Missile batteries are way more separated. IRL we also have specialised anti-AA-missile aircrafts, the "Wild Weasels". Special sensors, anti-radar missiles, etc.Another reason, that missiles have much bigger warheads than cannon shells. Missile hits probably destroy even a kamikaze aircraft due to structural damage. Even in Star Wars, turbolasers and ion cannons have massive recoil forces, and the guns required huge amount of energy to work. (HALO railguns/coilguns are also...) Missiles are better suited to smaller ships with limited powersource capacity.AA guns are still effective by now. R2-D2 is the nickname of the US Navy Phalanx close-in weapon system. Do not target the aircrafts, target the enemy ordenance instead!
Remember that Clone Trooper who said "good thing those bugs can't aim" During the Second Battle of Geonosis? He got a lot of flak for that.
That's a great memory, I forgot that line but just rewatched it so that made me bust out laughing
@@MetaNerdzLore Ashoka seems to be facing flak fire, during her attempt to break the blockade above Ryloth, but from where do you think it's coming from? My guess would be the Munificents.
All I remember is that one clone being carried away by Geonosians during the final charge XD
ITS A FLAK!
Boo!
Military History Visualized!? I Love that channel! I'd love to Star Wars History Visualized on squad layouts of Droids and clones...or logistics!
Check out Military History Not Visualized for more IN-DEPTH information.
Ben Jeremiah Lim Here is the link to Military History Not Visualized: th-cam.com/channels/hImwmytehS5SmlqMkXwoEw.html
Yea I'm sure Lore is full of logistics manuscripts... 🤦♂️
Ahhhhhh, Logistics.
THERE'S A LOT OF FLAK COMING FROM THE RIGHT SIDE OF THAT FLAKTURM!
I'm not surprised, Star Wars has always been heavily influenced by WW2. Considering most of the weapons are actual ww2 museum pieces or replicas...
The original e-11s were just surplus sterlings...or so I've been told
A stormtrooper in Tatooine in episode IV was carrying a magazine-less WW1/WW2 thompson MG
@@user-ft3jq5vi2l ww1 thompson? You mean ww2
Remember that the 88 mm gun was also the main gun on German Tiger I/II tanks and the Jagdpanther (tank destroyer).
the 88 on the tiger and konigstiger was the KampfwagonKannonen (KwK) 43 a shorter version of the FlAK 38 with a muzzle break
Forty5 thanks for the spellcheck
And the later Tiger 2 had a 128mm gun
@@arandomperson7713 nope. The maus would have had a 128, but the königstiger only ever saw service with an (improved) 88. There had been plans to give it a 105, but those never happened
Flak in my opinion will be more affective because of structural damage. The problem with blasters is that use heat, and most ships in Star Wars are heat resistance because of both entry and exiting of the atmosphere. So it will be logical for the usage ballistics is a better use in destroying ships.
Not to meantion, physical rounds also penetrate shields.
@@dwarvenmoray No, particle shields protect against physical weapons while ray shields protect against energy weapons.
George Hamilton Ahh, I see.
They must be somewhat protected from projectiles as well due to space debris.
onlypeaceindeath Okay, Borat.
"This mechanical quiz kid"
Kit* but i heard kid too lol
Lol yeah that was great, I heard mechanical wiz kid
It was World War 2 what do you expect them to say.
Honestly I'd love to see flak in Star Wars. Since some themes of world War 2 are in Star Wars. Also uploaded on my 21st birthday
at 6:24 you can see the shell bearers push the tip of the shell into a cup on the gun. That thing must be what is setting the fuse. That is cool.
Can tell you folks did a lot of research and really enjoyed doing it. I appreciate the effort and am looking forward to seeing more like it.
But V-19s were unshielded so plot armour I guess...?
The Jedi fighters did have shields, before the interceptors had them tooken out.
@@WolfeSaber9933
The V-19 are the clones' spacecrafts.
The early war fighter
@@TheKenji2221 I did not say the Jedi fighters were clone fighters.
@@WolfeSaber9933
Well he talked about the V-19 and you replied with the jedi fighters sooooooooooo. Yeah
The Jedi fighters had shields, not the V-19s!
Hey Metanerdz, a WW2 geek here, on Ryloth the shells that took down the Acclamator are probably the same shells exploding in front/around the gunships (both are high explosive (HE for short)). Technically any shell can be an Anti-aircraft (AA) shell as long as your using the right fuses (a VT fuse, proximity fuse, etc) and HE shells make for very good AA shells because the concussion of the large explosion can damage aircraft and the shrapnel (formerly known as the shell body) is sent flying at a much higher velocity.
I'm not sure if you know this but shells can have multiple fuses (AA shells almost always have 2 fuses at least). Those proton shells almost certainly have a proximity or contact fuse (if I recall correctly the WW2 proximity fuses contained a contact detonator for direct hits as well) in the nose and a VT fuse in the back so they explode at a certain altitude.
I always wondered why ever ship over frigate size didn't have at least a few flak guns cause most star wars shields where made to just stop energy based weapons
Most of them are also particle shields that prevent things like micrometeors from punching holes in the computers, fuel lines, and/or brainpans of the fighters. So Flak would still be effective, just not much more than lasers.
Mass drivers have always been a weapon meant to exploit this shield weakness since in starwars personal protection is extremely far behind the lethality of weaponry.
watch Battlestar Galactica for how do to flak in space!
@@Zretgul_timerunner And this is why the UNSC would kick ass. Because mass drivers got nothing on Magnetic Accleration Cannons
@@KillerOrca Considering there exist mass driver based weaponry thats the size of ships no a mac as strong as it is isnt something thats gonna destroy anything better. Id might add that UNSC ships whould be cut in half by mass driver hits. Since ships generally have alot more then one mass driver.
With the psychological element, AA machine guns or cannons (the lower caliber ones) firing tracers served the same function as flak, in that they made enemy pilots maneuver to avoid it. It's sort of like a physical manifestation of their fear- if an AA gun wasn't firing tracers (an example being the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse), then enemy pilots would be more daring and/or more careful/deliberate with their aim as would normally be the case (as seeing a bullet in flight, no matter the caliber, is impossible).
I find its Awesome that such old technology is found in Star Wars it combines two of my favorite thing Star Wars and WWII history
Thetwintaileddevil Star Wars was written to be based on the world wars
@@heshiram1188 Cool thanks for telling me.
Everything in Star Wars is old but upgraded to look cool and pack a tougher punch 😎
Also, don't forget two key components to AA: flak is really good at destroying un-armored, metal aircraft. It is not nearly as effective against canvas aircraft unless the pilot is killed directly (not just wounded or mortally wounded). It is also struggles to deal with armored aircraft unless the explosion was close enough.
I would imagine that the issue with flak in space is that it suddenly becomes very likely that your flak will begin killing your fighters. If I was to make a guess, they likely aim flak in a manner that the cone is sent towards formations of enemy strike craft instead of in a sphere.
Can we make "The flak is too heavy!" a meme, please?
At 1:13, the two types shown are HE (left) and Cluster (right) Shells - the HE shell's explosion comes with shrapnel (the shell chunks). The Cluster shells release numerous smaller bomblets that explode or otherwise cause damage further, but on a small individual scale. ("Shrapnel" shells are typically HE shells with additional metal to act as shrapnel, though bomblets in cluster munitions can also have this same effect, as the individual bomblets are typically High Explosives). High Explosives shells are NOT Incendiary Shells. Incendiary ammo is designed to ignite, not explode.
So I had a couple of thoughts during the video. The first is this.
The primary reason that flak exists is because it produces some of the most distinctive and visually impressive scenes of warfare IRL. Mentioning it brings to mind those images of tension and danger as black clouds burst around you. The primary reason they were added to the franchise was their tremendous visuals.
Second, having shrapnel effect in space may not be a good idea because of how much more powerful it is. The vulture droids were unshielded and if you have simple 360 burst shells then a lot of that shrapnel would be flying around into your own ships. It would certainly be denser at the point of detonation but still quite danger at a mile off.
Third, what we may be seeing with the ammo is the difference between a compressed plasma round vs a contained one. When the artillery doesn’t need to reload it may be firing like an oversized blaster but with a weakened field holding the plasma together. At a certain distance the plasma breaks free and gives you the flak effect. With the heavier rounds the canisters are packed with tightly compressed plasma, far more than the gun could possibly handle. This is propelled to altitude where it’s fuse releases the stored plasma. Blowing up in a large spherical AoE.
Lastly, two improvements. I just realized that the buzz droids were likely reclaimed after battle and placed into new discord missiles. Also, having shotgun effect shrapnel rounds would be highly effective in space.
Two notes:
1)Those big artillery shells are shown to be _ejected_ from the ship-board guns- I'd guess they're just containers for materisls, e.g. powr cells, some lubricants for the gun, and maybe some material to build the "shrapnel source" from.
2) There's no particular reason that a shrapnel shell couldn't itself generate a focussed conical blast instead of a spherical one.
@@absalomdraconis good notes, I should rephrase my third point. "With the heavier rounds the canisters are packed with tightly compressed plasma, far more than the gun could possibly handle. This is propelled to altitude where it’s fuse releases the stored plasma." was supposed to mean that the compressed plasma within the canister was propelled and not the canister itself.
On the second note, I realize that shrapnel shells are perfectly capable of being focused, the type pictured in canon shows no indication however and seems to be the unfocused style in order to give the puffball appearance.
Love the response btw. It's always nice to have civil comments these days.
That’s awesome! I never really knew that flak guns were in Star Wars!
I couldn't find a source on star fighters only having ray shields so I don't know where this is coming from.
Also, I think flak is simply not as effective against durasteel or deflector shields (particle shield part of it) which is used to safe the craft from space debris going at a fracture of Lightspeed through space (which is not truly empty to begin with).
Also the CIS ground canons are very close in appearance to the board guns of the Invisible hand in Episode 3 and as far as I can remember these are classified as "proton guns?".
So I think all these explosions in the battle of Corusant or the clone wars series aren't actually old school "regular" explosives and more akin to explosive energy weapons.
The guns could fire different types of munitions and the flak-explosives could be powered by protons on Ryloth.
The shrapnel from flak have a possibility to overload the ray shields (however slight), hence psychologically affecting pilots (lose shield = closer to death) who should really worry more about their deflector shields from the more common tibanna fire. Firing 'smart' (tracks opponents' signals, strikes when possible, and avoids hitting other targets to keep going) missiles right after a debris shower which *may* may have confused the ray/particle shields (thus weakening them in certain areas because the shielding energy must focus on a hit point {(s), where there may be multiple of, considering this is flak}, thus slightly lowering shielding capabilities in other areas in general) could result in a direct hit, which, depending on the hull of the ship (durasteel, transparateel{windows}, doonium etc.), inflict kinetic force, would damage systems, or utterly annihilate the ship (if badly damaged beforehand/crucial systems hit/unshielded).
Reminds me of Battlestar Galactica and how effective the Galactica's flak screen was against fighters and physical munitions
But did their watch out for those wrist rockets
Cluster missiles need more time in the spotlight. It was my favorite feature of the Star Wars Rogue Squadron V-Wing airspeeder.
If you think 12,000 shells for one downed aircraft is bad, look up the statistics for rifles. For every 50,000 rounds of ammunition only one enemy combatant is injured/killed. Ammunition is meant to be expendable, preferably expended at the enemy.
Great video as always, love the comparison to the real life items of inspiration
Amazing work! This is my new favorite video from you! Two of the things that I love coming together: World War II History and Star Wars!
Hello, i always watch your vídeos when i go to sleep, they are awesome greetings from Chile ^^
Hey that's awesome thanks
It is worth mentioning that in Star Wars Battlefront II You actually are able to use ECM for certain starships (mainly bombers) to scramble targeting senors especially for missiles.
man this is totally the best star wars channel the deep dives into lore are unparalelled
The J-1s don't really have to fire different "shells". 1 type can very well have multiple uses. The shell or energy blast that it fires can very well be designed to be effective both against large targets on direct hits or take out smaller targets in a radious.
In fact, there are real life weapons that work this way. The Abrams for example has a multi purpose shell that has a HEAT warhead for destroying lighter armored vehicles, shrapnel for soft targets and even a proximity fuse so it can be used against low flying helicopters.
Who knew star wars uses WW2 technology as inspiration....MetaNerdz releasing USAAF documentation and getting dragged off the area 51.
I mean... Everyone. It's pretty well known
@@PedroKing19 a lot of star wars seems to be based off of the World Wars
Ben Harding how could you not I mean the empire is based off of the Nazis their premier troops are stormtroopers, the E11, the Heavy blaster rifles, Hans gun etc are all modified WW2 era guns
@@theAverageJoe25 ..... i was makin a sarcastic comment
Excellently researched video.
Thank you! I was hoping literally yesterday to find a video on flak
People: flak? Ahh the german thing
Starwars people: whats germany?
Zoo vill lehhn zoon ennuff!
Shields do block physical objects, there are two types, partial and ray shields
"Particle" rather than "partial". I wish they'd gone with matter/energy instead, it would have been easier to remember.
Is it wired that I’ve watched the ww2 flak video before just because I wanted to.
No more weird than people like me watching those WW2 videos that are meant to introduce pilots to new aircraft. I don't think I'll ever be behind the stick of Douglas A-20 but thanks to TH-cam I know its unique flight characteristics.
Battlestar Galactica really shows why flak is A GOOD IDEA.
What a great, multiple sources fact full and heavy on research video! And unique topic! Amazing
I still like to see the Revenge Class Heavy Carrier review on or just the Relentless.
And its Wombat Class Escort Frigate.
I wonder if they got the "home-on-jamming" in Star Wars, given the significant amount of ECM in the show.
Would be interesting to read about other ECCM in Star Wars as well.
I'd pay to see a "Growler" kind of X-Wing, one devoted entirely to electronic warfare
I could see a variant of ARC-170 and TIE-Bomber performing such role. ARC-170 have so much internal space and several crew inside that fitting more EW equipments inside, and you can swap out the entire bomb pod for dedicated EW pod.
I used to imagine a Wild Weasel TIE squad composed of a few TIE with such modifications (which I called TIE Growler) leading a wing of TIE Bombers with modified missile launchers. The TIE Growler would cut through the jamming while sending data to the rest of TIE Bomber, which their missile will target all hostile anti-starfighter defensive mechanism.
I never explore such idea further, though.
@@PaiSAMSEN I SWEAR I remember something like that being a thing in Legends. Might have been a Recon X-Wing though.
I think in legends the ARC's nose was actually for that, along with sensor and recon stuff.
And those Wild Weasel TIEs sound AMAZING
But if nothing stops it, 5 years after the flack was first released it hits a ship tacking it down
AND THIS IS WHY SIR ISSAC NEWTON IS THE DEADLIEST SON OF A BITCH IN SPACE!
I was just watching that flak training video today.... TH-cam can differentiate contents of uploads I suppose
I haven’t been here for months I feel good to be back and I just found out who freddie prinze jr is , you know the guy who gave us Scooby-Doo.
10:23 I think that was just a flak round directly hitting that engine
I got really excited to see this video! Thank you for making this!
I have been wonder what this crap was even called since I was 5 thank you so much.
I have seen flak in old war films, marvel movies, star wars and tons of other movie and never knew what it was called
Thing is, consider the nature of turbolasers, I don't think they need specialized flak ammunitions and weapons. Turbolaser work just fine.
Since turbolaser bolt is basically plasma shell enveloped by handwavium energy, which collapse once the bolt impact the target. It should be possible to manipulate this energy field that it would collapse after certain time, which result in plasma inside exploding.
I think I just found another role for my thermal detonator catapult :D
AA is the best way to get rid of a squadron. Especially the 40mm quad bofors.
No, especially the 88mm
@@francopvf the 88 has a slow rate of fire.
@@sukhoisu-24fencer3 yes but its a cannon, and as probably you know they were used in groups of ten, with various groups situeated in a linear path that the bombers would have done ti arrive to a factory or city, soo you dont have a single cannon firing 1r/3-4s but more than fifty cannon firing 50r/3-4s, and the 88 have more destructuve power than the bofors
@@francopvf bofors has historically in both ww2 and after stood for far more kills then the 88 did to aerial assets.
@@Zretgul_timerunner beacouse It was imployed in the frontline and It was a machinegun, not a cannon, the same thing can be said about 20mm flak or 37mm flak, I was not talking about the historical data of kills, but about his effectines in general, you couldnt use the 40mm bofors on a squad of bombers that fly at more than 25km of altitude, meanwhile with a cannon like the 88mm you can
The one counter-effective consideration about flak in space is that while the shrapnel does not slow d/t the near perfect vacuum of space, it’s density as an aggregation of projectiles lessens with distance traveled over time.
Big Mouthed Alien Rebel: *KARABAST! ACK-ACK!!!*
They watched a few episodes of Battlestar Galactica and thought it was cool.
I actually happened to watch the WWII Flak video a couple days before watching this.
This might come as spoiling Star Wars immersion, but there are proximity fuses that are impossible to disrupt using ECMs. They are called optical sensors. These days they are guite cheap. The only thing that can stop a optical sensor from working is a power outtage. I guess you could use an EMP to take that out but it wouldn't be the only thing going out. Pretty much everything about Star Wars space combat is nonpractical and requires specific explanations. I myself don't mind it that much as long as it is internally consistent. Your videos on the subject are quite informative and enjoyable. Keep it up!;)
"That won't do any damage to them!"
"Maybe, but It'll at least keep them on their toes."
@MetaNerdz Lore
It should be pointed out that the difference between a HE shell and a Flak is the Fuse.
One has a time fuse and the other a point impact detonation fuse. Modern fuses have both settings. So it is likely the same shell with the fuse sett differently.
On the topic of realistic military concepts in Star Wars weaponry, why didn't Star Destroyers have an "all or nothing" armour scheme. Basically instead of a large shield covering the entire ship, we have the shields concentrated on only the vital components of the ship, such as the engines and magazines (or wherever energy is stored for the turbo lasers and guns). The turbo laser batteries would then be concentrated in a cluster, protected by these strong shields, while everywhere else would be divided into many compartments. Doors between these compartments and rooms could be sealed automatically when penetrated. Also since lasers blasts are basically high explosive shells, double layered shields can be employed, with the first shield detonating the laser bolt while the other just absorbs the impact. A weaker smaller shield generator can then be employed to cover the rest of the ship. This "all or nothing" armour scheme was used during WWI and WWII in Battleships, the first ship using this type of armour scheme being USS Nevada. This works because medium armour covering the whole ship was found to be easily penetrated, while heavy armour covering only the vital parts would require the same amount of weight while being able to at least protect the vitals sufficiently. In Star Wars rather than saving weight we're saving energy output.
0:29 "Floog zoig ab ver can ohneh"
Another reason why the flak is not effective in ahsoka's run was deflector shield they already have them for micro asteroids so say shrapnel is flying around it's basically a micro asteroid.
Remember the starwars galaxy isnt in empty vacuum, its ether. Thats why ships fly like they're in atmosphere and why the engines have to keep burning or ships stop suddenly
Give this guy likes he's a genius
Beehive shells were probably the coolest type of flak. Buzz droids were probably the smart version of this.
I think the J1 cannons are using AP rounds for the Acclamators and for broadsides. But the laser flack seen during gunship runs are being shot by other cannons or droids simply due to the rate of fire of the flack. The time it takes to load the shells into the J1 cannons is far slower unless belt fed. On Ryloth they were manually loaded so I think there's just a droid like the spiders not being shown firing or something.
"Proton Cannon", so they probably threw nuke shells at the Acclamators.
Makes sense with the countermeasures. ECMs are extremely commonplace on almost all military aircraft around the world.
Im surprised rebels didn’t launch a ton of seismic charges all over a Star Destroyer in order to crack the thing open.
Well i dont have problems in pronouncing flak because i am german. ;)
Great video! Good explaination! I knew a little bit but now i know more content of flaks in sw
when i was 6 years old i thought Star Wars was real somewhere in the universe.
MetaNerdz still thinks that. (((-:
Disney‘s cannon instead of firing Flack gets more Flack that those LAAT/i on Geonosis
5:57 Debunking time, shield's work like the Droideka shield's, They focus on the momentum, Velocity, And strength of the incoming projectile/threat, The harder it hits it the less overall chance of it going through, But higher of breaking. So if its slower, Then it passes right on through unlike HV (High Velocity) rounds, Making it to where the Shield's are Highly resistant to HV rounds, + they aren't a major organism. So the fighters shield's can be easily improved due to no risk of Radiation. Minus the pilot which probably has lead lining for the cock-pit.
This is an outstanding video
I love these in-depth video man!
I remember using the Bespin flak guns against enemy troops in Battlefront 1. Good times. Sorta seems like the 'tank-killer' comment near the end.
Well hold on a second, there was a Clone Pilot flying a Y-Wing during the battle to destroy the Malevolence yell out "This Flak is heavy!"
Imagine just walking to your house on a planet in Star Wars and just get hit by a piece of shrapnel from flak halfway across the galaxy since the shrapnel doesn’t lose speed
Kinetic weapons are a thing in Star Wars, in Legends Republic & Imperial Commandos have often used rail guns or gauss rifles, which are the equivalent of the Barret 50 cal but on steroids to take out tanks and walkers, particle cannons are also a thing, sure they might be slow but they work, mass accelerators can be fitted on ships to launch guided torpedoes, that stream past the enemy ship and then veer right back into the engines, regular grenade launchers are a thing and so are common firearms, the only issue is ammo and range, but there are works around it, Clone Maries often favor scatter guns for breaching operation or boarding missions,
Fantastic Video!!
This video was amazing I'm so excited for more like it in the future keep up the great work
Also regarding the munitions used being around military arms. Those shells could also have a kind of multipurpose or even multi trigger warhead. As today we have a 57mm auto cannon from borfors the mk110 system thats shells have 6 detonation modes that you set electronically before firing plus there are many multi purpose munitions in cannon shells and in missiles that can do many different thing bu simply changing the detonation time or even that pack multiple warheads at once ie. tandem munitions. Just a little light shed onto this idea as with the advancements of star wars tech both could be true either the container can hold different shell types or the shell it self fires a multi purpose/programmable round as it doesnt have to be smart as the setting can be changed once chambered by the weapon according to the needs of the gunners allowing some to fire flak bursts and others APHE shells or what ever needed.
Your channel is just so flaking good!
Looking at the flak firing scenes on Ryloth, I wonder if those CIS flak shells are actually several flak explosions wrapped into one shell. The cannon fires one shot and several projectiles scatter and then explode, increasing the surface area of the flak. Because otherwise it doesn't seem like the flak cannons on the ground are numerous and firing quickly enough to spread as much flak as they do.
Correct me if I'm rong Metta, but in the training video they said that the pressure caused by the explosion was ment to break the aircraft if it got to close kinda like a depth charge for the sky
Flugzeugabwehrkanone....simple enough XD Greetings from Germany, möge die Macht mit euch sein
Not related to Star Wars. But one of the reasons I loved the Battlestar Galactica remake was because they used artillery, missiles, and flak weapons instead of lasers. It made the space combat more believable and far more deadly, with friendly fire and getting stuck in the crosshairs being a common hazard.
Truly one of the best shows in all of science fiction.
Smart Flak could work depending on the guidance mechanism, a more advanced "home on jam" mechanism could be a potential option, but does seem outside of the CIS doctrine (who we've seen using flak the most), where simpler mechanisms could be just as effective with a higher rate of fire.
Pretty sure most flak in star wars is just the superheated plasma exploding instead of sticking to it's bolt form as they really don't use projectiles besides a few slugthrowers. The ships are already designed to withstand micrometeors etc so flak debris wouldn't do much.
I'm happy that you don't try to speak the German words. I always get goose bumps when somebody trys to pronounce a German word an than butchering it beyond recognition.
Edit: I know that has nothing to do with the topic but I recognize that in a lot of comic issues some imperials scream "halt". That's the German word for stop. I think in the issue where the mon cala overthrow their imperial leaders in the main star wars comic. When one stormtrooper was attacked by a group of angry fish's he screams "halt! Halt!"
Has somebody an accplenation for that.
"Halt" is now a commonly used word in the English language derived from German. It still has the same meaning and is often used (in fiction) for scenarios relating to military operations.
More on the English use of "halt" and a little more on its origins could be found by searching "halt meaning" on Google (might need browser language set to English). A dictionary box should then be on the top of the search page.
a22866n bei bf4 What BattleDroid said but also because the Empire is heavily based off of Nazi Germany
The 12,000 rounds per aircraft estimated ratio predates reliable proximity detonator technology.
True I had a whole part written a out how much better the flak got toward the end but it was already such a long video and felt like I was getting off topic. But thanks for pointing that out especially on the Pacific I believe
I cannot BELIEVE you use Quora! I'm also a quora user!
Amazing job
Blaster fire also explodes like flak weapons....so MOST of those space explosions are just the effects of tibanna gas doing its thing.
If I remember correctly the Tiger Tanks main gun was a derivative of the 88 giving it excellent accuracy. There is an incident of a German tank shooting down a Russian dive bomber although there is no confirmed reports
Very nice video.
I think that the j 1 proton cannon is kind of the tactical shotgun of star wars aa equipment that meaning that it could fire anything aa long aa it could be fit inside a shell witch is both terrifying and effective.
Episode 3 is my favorite (probably because it was the first I saw) but now I have a bunch of extra cool screenshots from the battle of coruscant to backup onto my laptop again
A magnetized shield would render flak useless in space like a ball bouncing off a wall......if the flak was metal presumably
not sure it's usage in space might accidentally resulted in friendly fire as in your allies sailing several kilometers away out of sight.
I hope you don’t get flak for doing this episode. Sorry but pun intended to.
This was very useful for home defence
So kind of like defensive MG nests. Meant to suppress the enemy, not kill them.
Using a flak type ammunition in space would be stupid as mentioned in the video it would continue going in all directions coming back at you and hitting your own ship because it's exploding in all directions
Ok, but FLAK cannons have one common problem: the relatively short range. They only start fire when the enemy aircraft are already on attack formation, bomb bays open, every pilot and navigator ready to drop the ordenance. Confusion, "fog of war", navigation and communication problems was common. But the aircrafts always have a safe area to "reform the ranks/close the order". This is why AA missiles are emerged. Missiles are could create full coverage. Aircrafts are under attack not only close to targets or other strategic areas, but everywhere over enemy territory. AA guns are concentrated around possible target areas, so they was very vulnerable to NUKE BOMB fallout. (The new toys...) Missile batteries are way more separated. IRL we also have specialised anti-AA-missile aircrafts, the "Wild Weasels". Special sensors, anti-radar missiles, etc.Another reason, that missiles have much bigger warheads than cannon shells. Missile hits probably destroy even a kamikaze aircraft due to structural damage. Even in Star Wars, turbolasers and ion cannons have massive recoil forces, and the guns required huge amount of energy to work. (HALO railguns/coilguns are also...) Missiles are better suited to smaller ships with limited powersource capacity.AA guns are still effective by now. R2-D2 is the nickname of the US Navy Phalanx close-in weapon system. Do not target the aircrafts, target the enemy ordenance instead!
"floog-zug-awhb-ver-can-on" for anyone wondering how the german word is said