In your second example, is the false relation not the sopranos move to f-sharp after the alto's f-natural? The resultant sound suggest that the chromatic ascent occurs solely in the alto, when actually it is, first, in the alto and, then, in the soprano, confusing the independence of line that we often strive for in 4-part writing.
@@MusicMattersGB is there some knowledge out there where i can learn whats forbidden to play? What wrong notes are not to play? About wrong harmonies? I need to learn what is forbidden in music. Also i like to know why some songs use notes which are not included in the scale of the song because its very hard to find in the internet. Thank you so much.
@@MusicMattersGB i will love to study all your videos, thanks a lot. Can i compose "wrong" if i only use the notes which are included in the choosen scale? I hope my questions will get answered if i watch your videos😁
Made me think of the first few chords in Diary of a Madman Ozzy/Randy Rhoads. The Eb and the open E string. I didn't know there was a term for it. Very interesting.
Great! In the US we use the term *cross relation*, which doesn't sound as pejorative (*your relation is false!*)! I've never been clear on the precise criteria for a false relation. One can easily imagine a B natural and Bb within a measure or two that would not raise any eyebrows at all. Is it essentially subjective -- viz., two tones that sound in conflict in some way? Or are there more objective criteria? Your examples focus on intra-chord relations and adjacent chord relations. How "far apart" can two tones be before one needn't give much thought to a false relation? And what about dissonances that get the listener's attention but for enharmonic reasons aren't written as two versions of the same note -- e.g., using a major 7th chord? The listener cannot see the spelling of the notes, but can hear the discord. Is a puzzlement.
Good points. Cross relation is certainly a commonly used term for what we’re talking about. Usually false or cross relation occurs between one note and the next or one beat and the next and the pitches occur in different octaves. In relation to the point about enharmonics that is less of an issue because, for example, A# in one part might belong to V in B major, then B in the following chord might belong to l, therefore a clear harmonic progression is taking place within a diatonic key. Hope that helps. All the best. Gareth
Im used to modulating. Plus Music is just a Game of TENSION and release to me. As long as i resolve it eventually....it'll work. I dont have to resolve it right away. Sometime...I'll actually strike the high tension chords LOUD... to make sure the audience are still AWAKE..lol CLuster notes actaully dont clash as much if they're SPREAD OUT in different octaves. I make this chord on the guitar. (it's pretty/Enchanting) From the Key of F MAJOR/Dmin I'll make the D min chord at the 5th fret..against the high E...with low two strings open so i can play different BASS NOTES...against the D min add 9 chord... such as the Eb note ( there's 4 -ea Cluster notes in that chord) It's pretty if I Arpegiate it.... Or the C# note... or the Eb Maj dyad below the D min dyad I'll play this chord too....Bb Maj7 barr chord at the 1st fret..against the open E Bb maj7 add #11.... Play different bass notes...such as A , F, E...ect THIS CHORD....F Maj barr chord...against high B and E.. It'll still be F Maj7 ( inverted) add #11 ( B note).. Then play different bass notes...F...E or F#/Gb The F #/Gb or B note isnt in F ionian.....or the Eb and C# note in the KEY of F MAJOR.lol I just see the F# or Eb as N6 option notes or chords.lol I can simply play the G min barr chord... Then simply play the Bb Maj6 or G min7/Ab ( I'll simply see the G min b2 as G dorian b2 to F melodic min) I dont have a problem..playing C7 into F MAJOR or F min....whatever flavor. Or playing G7, A7 into D melodic , harmonic min...ect too. or Play the G full dim H/W ( dorian b2, #4 AND Lydian dominant b2) 8 notes SCALES.....( but you can make maj. min. dominant. or dim chord every b3 intervals too...using this scale. It's SYMMETRICAL.... the trick is to play it over the F MAJOR/Dmin (TONIC) or the N6...after the relative min....Eb and MAJOR's tonic Gb becuase they're b3 intervals apart. or even the Eb Maj7 Before playing C7 into D min or F MAJOR... I might play B dim...C# dim instead of C7 ..it's just from D melodic min. or E min.....B dim C# dim D min. or Db Maj G min C7 into F MAJOR or D min In a nutshell...the other 5 notes out of 12..that's NOT in F MAJOR/ D natural min.lol
F to F# and B to C are both semitones so they’re the same interval. When we resolve a V7 chord the convention is that the 7th falls by step and the 3rd rises by step. Therefore the progression you describe allows for that resolution.
Why is it that so often people say that the 'seventh' notes are so important when it comes to changing key, or almost changing key? Does this mean the seventh note in connection with the the chord built on the dominant seventh, or the 'seventh' of the actual scale one is presently in, or why do people make such mention of the 'seventh', giving it all this importance?
I guess you mean the flattened seventh? You take a chord and add a flattened seventh, which makes it a dominant seventh and takes you into a new key. For example, in C major, the dominant seventh will be C E G Bb, which takes you into F. If you look at the key signature of F major, you will see that it has a Bb. Thus, by playing a dominant seventh, you’re actually playing a note from the key you’re going towards. The dominant seventh chord has a very strong pull so it’s useful when you want it to really feel like we’re going to this next key. Just because you’re in a particular key doesn’t mean you can’t use this or that chord; for example, you can be in C major and play a C chord (CEG) then play a dominant D chord with CDF# and D in the bass. That takes you to G major. Or you could play C#EG over A; that’s a dominant seventh A chord which takes you to D
Well, thank you very much for that. Very much appreciated. I will have to research a little and analyse your answer, I’m sure it will be good. :) But just to start, why does flattening the seventh note of a chord, make that note, or do you mean the chord, a ‘dominant seventh’ ?
Hi Gareth. When you said F# with F, straight away I thought F# major7 would work ok, the E being E#. I do hear the 2 Octave below with the F# is a little odd! Musica ficta, wow you know so much. Thanks again. PS I just found something called false resolutions!
@@MusicMattersGB Thanks for the reinforcement of the F false relation. I wasn't really referring to this subject, but in music generally. Sorry I wasn't more specific.
Can you elaborate on why C# would sound like D minor? I'm curious, because it's not a note that's in D minor (it would be the 7th in D major). Do you mean that it's in one of the chords? I do see that Edim7 has Db in it. Or if you have a D minor major-seventh? I'm not sure if that sounds very Dm-ish.
Go watch Gareth's video on Minor Key Harmony th-cam.com/video/FwensA5d4n0/w-d-xo.html but the short answer is that music doesn't sound fully in a particular key (it sounds modal otherwise) without the sharpened 7th = major 3rd in the chord built on the 5th degree of the scale aka the dominant. Per your example, C# is the major 3rd in the chord of A, the 5th degree of D. The music ficta that Gareth mentioned evolved into the Harmonic minor scale en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale#Harmonic_minor_scale
Helpful response there from Mark. The other thing to be clear about is that D minor has a key signature of Bb but in the harmonic minor scale we also raise the 7th degree - C# in this case. That explains further why it’s there. By the way, E dim7 is really EGBbC#, so C# rather than Db.
Hey, one more I think? Final Fantasy VII. You can tell from the title that they don't take the decision lightly... th-cam.com/video/UMvHTlWyxH0/w-d-xo.html
Why are we calling it F#? (I am just reminded of your scales lesson where we don't use the same letter name twice in a scale.) Given that if we are in F we have Bb, wouldn't it be more accurate to call it Gb instead? It feels to me more like the leading tone to Gb when you played it. It even felt like a b9 to the F. Or have I just taken the wrong end of the stick?
Hi. In this explanation I’m not relating to any particular key but just trying to be clear why F/F# would constitute a false relation in the given examples. Gb and F would not constitute a false relation because they are different letter names. Hope that helps. All the best. Gareth
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Excellent, great hands-on video. Thank you very much for making this episode.
A pleasure. Enjoy!
Very good!
Thank you very much!
A pleasure. Much more to see at www.mmcourses.co.uk
In your second example, is the false relation not the sopranos move to f-sharp after the alto's f-natural? The resultant sound suggest that the chromatic ascent occurs solely in the alto, when actually it is, first, in the alto and, then, in the soprano, confusing the independence of line that we often strive for in 4-part writing.
Yes. The second example is riddled with false relations.
Your knowledge is godmode.
You’re very kind. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk including details of our online courses and of our exciting Maestros programme.
@@MusicMattersGB is there some knowledge out there where i can learn whats forbidden to play? What wrong notes are not to play? About wrong harmonies? I need to learn what is forbidden in music. Also i like to know why some songs use notes which are not included in the scale of the song because its very hard to find in the internet. Thank you so much.
Many of the videos in our Harmony playlist will help with those issues.
th-cam.com/play/PL5j5H06QkhxEQ3H0yacP_A3pjUviYCTl9.html
@@MusicMattersGB i will love to study all your videos, thanks a lot.
Can i compose "wrong" if i only use the notes which are included in the choosen scale?
I hope my questions will get answered if i watch your videos😁
The videos will certainly explain this but if you want the whole story from A to Z study our Theory courses at www.mmcourses.co.uk
Thanks for this. False relations featured in one of the set works when I studied music.
Excellent.
Thank you for this great video - it is exactly what I was looking for!
Excellent
Wonderfully explained, very helpful video! Thank you!
A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk
Made me think of the first few chords in Diary of a Madman Ozzy/Randy Rhoads. The Eb and the open E string. I didn't know there was a term for it. Very interesting.
😀
Great! In the US we use the term *cross relation*, which doesn't sound as pejorative (*your relation is false!*)! I've never been clear on the precise criteria for a false relation. One can easily imagine a B natural and Bb within a measure or two that would not raise any eyebrows at all. Is it essentially subjective -- viz., two tones that sound in conflict in some way? Or are there more objective criteria? Your examples focus on intra-chord relations and adjacent chord relations. How "far apart" can two tones be before one needn't give much thought to a false relation? And what about dissonances that get the listener's attention but for enharmonic reasons aren't written as two versions of the same note -- e.g., using a major 7th chord? The listener cannot see the spelling of the notes, but can hear the discord. Is a puzzlement.
Good points. Cross relation is certainly a commonly used term for what we’re talking about. Usually false or cross relation occurs between one note and the next or one beat and the next and the pitches occur in different octaves. In relation to the point about enharmonics that is less of an issue because, for example, A# in one part might belong to V in B major, then B in the following chord might belong to l, therefore a clear harmonic progression is taking place within a diatonic key. Hope that helps. All the best. Gareth
Thank you for your explanation. Could you give us an example of Octave False Relation please? Thank you
There are many examples in sixteenth century music.
Is there any rule of thumb for close proximity? How close is too close just by the best/most efficient safety measure?
A beat apart or less
@@MusicMattersGB Thank you!!!
😀
Im used to modulating. Plus Music is just a Game of TENSION and release to me.
As long as i resolve it eventually....it'll work.
I dont have to resolve it right away.
Sometime...I'll actually strike the high tension chords LOUD...
to make sure the audience are still AWAKE..lol
CLuster notes actaully dont clash as much if they're SPREAD OUT in different octaves.
I make this chord on the guitar. (it's pretty/Enchanting) From the Key of F MAJOR/Dmin
I'll make the D min chord at the 5th fret..against the high E...with low two strings open
so i can play different BASS NOTES...against the D min add 9 chord...
such as the Eb note ( there's 4 -ea Cluster notes in that chord)
It's pretty if I Arpegiate it....
Or the C# note...
or the Eb Maj dyad below the D min dyad
I'll play this chord too....Bb Maj7 barr chord at the 1st fret..against the open E
Bb maj7 add #11....
Play different bass notes...such as A , F, E...ect
THIS CHORD....F Maj barr chord...against high B and E..
It'll still be F Maj7 ( inverted) add #11 ( B note)..
Then play different bass notes...F...E or F#/Gb
The F #/Gb or B note isnt in F ionian.....or the Eb and C# note in the KEY of F MAJOR.lol
I just see the F# or Eb as N6 option notes or chords.lol
I can simply play the G min barr chord...
Then simply play the Bb Maj6 or G min7/Ab
( I'll simply see the G min b2 as G dorian b2 to F melodic min)
I dont have a problem..playing C7 into F MAJOR or F min....whatever flavor.
Or playing G7, A7 into D melodic , harmonic min...ect too.
or Play the G full dim H/W ( dorian b2, #4 AND Lydian dominant b2)
8 notes SCALES.....( but you can make maj. min. dominant. or dim chord
every b3 intervals too...using this scale.
It's SYMMETRICAL....
the trick is to play it over the F MAJOR/Dmin (TONIC)
or the N6...after the relative min....Eb and MAJOR's tonic Gb
becuase they're b3 intervals apart.
or even the Eb Maj7
Before playing C7 into D min or F MAJOR...
I might play B dim...C# dim instead of C7 ..it's just from D melodic min.
or
E min.....B dim C# dim D min.
or
Db Maj G min C7 into F MAJOR or D min
In a nutshell...the other 5 notes out of 12..that's NOT in F MAJOR/ D natural min.lol
😀
The move from F to F# is aurally similar to B to C. Why is say V65= BDFG to I6= EGC not an issue?
Great video as usual.
F to F# and B to C are both semitones so they’re the same interval. When we resolve a V7 chord the convention is that the 7th falls by step and the 3rd rises by step. Therefore the progression you describe allows for that resolution.
Good Teather!!
Most kind. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk
Why is it that so often people say that the 'seventh' notes are so important when it comes to changing key, or almost changing key? Does this mean the seventh note in connection with the the chord built on the dominant seventh, or the 'seventh' of the actual scale one is presently in, or why do people make such mention of the 'seventh', giving it all this importance?
I guess you mean the flattened seventh? You take a chord and add a flattened seventh, which makes it a dominant seventh and takes you into a new key. For example, in C major, the dominant seventh will be C E G Bb, which takes you into F. If you look at the key signature of F major, you will see that it has a Bb. Thus, by playing a dominant seventh, you’re actually playing a note from the key you’re going towards. The dominant seventh chord has a very strong pull so it’s useful when you want it to really feel like we’re going to this next key.
Just because you’re in a particular key doesn’t mean you can’t use this or that chord; for example, you can be in C major and play a C chord (CEG) then play a dominant D chord with CDF# and D in the bass. That takes you to G major. Or you could play C#EG over A; that’s a dominant seventh A chord which takes you to D
Clear explanation there. Thank you.
@@MusicMattersGB no worries haha. your channel is among the best musical resources on the Web! keep up the good work!
😀
Well, thank you very much for that. Very much appreciated. I will have to research a little and analyse your answer, I’m sure it will be good. :) But just to start, why does flattening the seventh note of a chord, make that note, or do you mean the chord, a ‘dominant seventh’ ?
Hi Gareth. When you said F# with F, straight away I thought F# major7 would work ok, the E being E#. I do hear the 2 Octave below with the F# is a little odd! Musica ficta, wow you know so much. Thanks again. PS I just found something called false resolutions!
E# would not count as a false relation with F# but F natural would
@@MusicMattersGB Thanks for the reinforcement of the F false relation. I wasn't really referring to this subject, but in music generally. Sorry I wasn't more specific.
All good
Can you elaborate on why C# would sound like D minor? I'm curious, because it's not a note that's in D minor (it would be the 7th in D major). Do you mean that it's in one of the chords? I do see that Edim7 has Db in it. Or if you have a D minor major-seventh? I'm not sure if that sounds very Dm-ish.
Go watch Gareth's video on Minor Key Harmony th-cam.com/video/FwensA5d4n0/w-d-xo.html but the short answer is that music doesn't sound fully in a particular key (it sounds modal otherwise) without the sharpened 7th = major 3rd in the chord built on the 5th degree of the scale aka the dominant. Per your example, C# is the major 3rd in the chord of A, the 5th degree of D. The music ficta that Gareth mentioned evolved into the Harmonic minor scale en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale#Harmonic_minor_scale
Helpful response there from Mark. The other thing to be clear about is that D minor has a key signature of Bb but in the harmonic minor scale we also raise the 7th degree - C# in this case. That explains further why it’s there. By the way, E dim7 is really EGBbC#, so C# rather than Db.
Could we get a whole video on music ficta? I'm familiar with the concept, but a bit shaky on when composers generally used it. Thanks.
Ok. Will add that to the list.
@@MusicMattersGB Thanks!
😀
Fantastic term!
Terms!
Absolutely!
He he he - if film music's your thing, then you positively dine on false relations 😉
And thank you for a fascinating explanation of the term.
😀
The chord progression sounds like SEGA opening sound!
😀
Hey, one more I think? Final Fantasy VII. You can tell from the title that they don't take the decision lightly... th-cam.com/video/UMvHTlWyxH0/w-d-xo.html
Why are we calling it F#? (I am just reminded of your scales lesson where we don't use the same letter name twice in a scale.)
Given that if we are in F we have Bb, wouldn't it be more accurate to call it Gb instead? It feels to me more like the leading tone to Gb when you played it. It even felt like a b9 to the F.
Or have I just taken the wrong end of the stick?
Hi. In this explanation I’m not relating to any particular key but just trying to be clear why F/F# would constitute a false relation in the given examples. Gb and F would not constitute a false relation because they are different letter names. Hope that helps. All the best. Gareth
@@MusicMattersGB thanks. It does. Can't help but think "key" whenever I see the stave.
😀
Hi Gareth :D
Hi
Noted for the next time I get bored and try to make horror ambient in LMMS. Mama loves her some dissonance lol
Go for it!
William Walton liked to use false relations - they're everywhere in his viola concerto.
Absolutely
I’ve always wondered what was “allowed” regarding chromatic (particularly diminished chords) passing chords and false relations.
Chromatic inessential notes often work well. The false relation is obviously a specific situation.
Google is spying on me.😟. Yesterday I created a song that has false relation in its intro and now i am here..😥
Ha ha! Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk
You're funny!
Fun humor...
😀
theres no supstitute for a proper musical foundation. mille gratze
Thanks for your support.