Do you think Katherine actually committed adultery? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
I don't think Katherine committed adultery, but that letter she sent to Culpepper was a really bad idea. It gave the impression that she was fooling around while married to Henry.
I do believe she committed adultery. She seemed to be a person that didn't have any idea of self control and past patterns had shown her she could have her fun as long as she wasn't caught.
If she didn’t have a physical affair with Culpepper while married to Henry then it was certainly an emotional one from the tone of her letter and meeting him in secret while on the Royal progress. She certainly did NOT deserve to be executed though. Henry could have annulled the marriage due to a pre contract with Dereham and sent her packing. He was a brutal king IMO.
I think from her past she had the affair. Culpepper was more her age Henry was an old man. It’s tragic but by his age he could not satisfy her romantically or physically. Wasn’t he ill while married to her?
Yes, that touched me almost to tears. Really, when you look at it, it was a tragedy for all concerned. Only Parr and Anne of Cleves came out well. And Henry . . . he had that awful accident and now we know what head injuries do to a person. I actually felt sorry for him - maybe the first time ever - when he cried like a baby when presented with the evidence. He must have known that, king of England or no, he was a fat, smelly, disgusting creature. How awfully pathetic. But Anne of Cleves dodged a bullet, or rather, an axe, although she might have done better as Queen than anyone except Catherine of Aragon.
I was picturing Anne of Cleves just, quietly whispering "thank you" at some point and then everything was fine lol. Poor Katherine, she was born in the wrong century to be a regular person, looking for love and validation without much common sense for the rules of the game she was unfortunately playing in.
So true! The colorful description of him in the video made me chuckle because I was thinking the same exact things right before she called him an idiot.
@@HistoryCallingIt’s even more baffling when you think of the amount of places, pensions or fees available. He had the perfect opportunity to get some cushy job somewhere far from Court that would have left him comfortably off for life, and instead he chose to draw as much attention to his connection to Katherine as was humanly possible. Right in the court of her husband. The all powerful King who was executing his own cousins left, right and centre. Idiocy doesn’t even begin to describe it.
I always felt sorry for Katherine. Her youth, her flightiness, and foolishness, and her obvious lack of understanding what a precarious position she was in (particularly given what happened to her cousin) spelled certain doom. And, let us not forget the men around her who used and manipulated her, leading to her eventual downfall and death. Poor girl never had a chance.
Yes, she was certainly in over her head. While I don't think she was the total puppet that some have made her out to be, I also don't think she had the life experience to handle the situation she was thrust into and no one there to give her good advice.
In defense of Katheryn, it does seem that she at least understood that Derham was trouble but he used her past to.blackmail his positing. During the rest of her stint as Queen, there are accounts of her making many presents of money and goods to him to try and keep him quiet. She was very upset with him at at least one meal(I like that was integrated into the Tudors), and probably more. She tried to keep a lid on him and her attempts would've probably worked with a differently tempered man. In the end, nothing she said to him mattered.
Fun fact: did you know, there was negotiations between Elizabeth and Ivan the terrible to get married ? Elizabeth shot down the idea because he reminded her of her father.
Indeed. I don's think she really almost married anyone though. She was telling Leicester from the time that she was 8 that she was never getting hitched and I think she meant it, all the more so after the Thomas Seymour debacle.
@@HistoryCalling I remember one documentary where she was announced to be engaged after she had become queen. And not "married to England". Plus, it's an interesting title.
I’d say Anne Boleyn’s rise and fall was more tragic. She faced a trial that was a kangaroo court facing horrible, incestuous, untrue charges and left behind a child whose fate looked very shaky. That that daughter turned into England’s greatest monarch was an irony that Anne probably never dared to imagine.
Why did Ann Boleyns daughter get the throne? Wasn't there other children? An older daughter and later children with later wives? I don't understand this
This poor kid. Her fate to me really underlines what a monster Henry VIII was. I think she's so sympathetic because it's very easy to imagine what she'd be like if she lived now - a happy party girl-type who'd find a better way through life than what actually happened to her.
Yes, by this point he was a monster I think. I just can't get past what he did to her, especially given what a serial adulterer he was. The hypocrisy is sickening. Of course she behaved poorly, but what do these stupid older men (then and now) expect when they get together with these young girls? It's so obvious the girls aren't there out of true love. It's a recipe for disaster.
@@HistoryCalling I realize I have a modern bias, but I can't help but see an abusive relationship between a teenage girl and an old creep who ended up murdering her. It's so gross.
@@HistoryCalling Haha, this reminds me of an anecdote about the German philosopher Immanuel Kant. When an elderly gentleman told him about his engagement to a young girl, that man said rather humbly, that of course, at his age, children were not to be hoped for in the intended marriage. To which Kant replied 'Maybe not to be hoped for, but very much feared!'. As to the hypocrisy - do you have any idea what the conception of female lust at the time was? I mean, AFAIK, the middle ages were convinced of women being the lustful (and thus prone to sinning) sex whereas in Victorian times, the opposite was thought to be true. So - when did it change? My point is: The hypocrisy would be a little less obvious, if men thought that women didn't have fun in bed anyway, so why shouldn't they be subject (pun intended) to any man no matter whether attractive or not.
That I would see him doing. As to Katherine committing adultery, I would probably fall on the side that says yes. Only for the Culpepper affair. Even if they didn't have "relations" at that point, they really painted a picture of that being an intended event. I will maintain, however, that her pre-marriage "indiscretions" shouldn't have been taken into account. I realize that's because of my much more modern take on a woman's right to dally as much as the menfolk, but I'll stubbornly stick to it :)
Yes, I don't think they should have counted either. It wasn't even a crime at the time, just heavily, heavily frowned upon. Bear in mind some of her dalliances were probably with Henry himself. He was such a hypocrite.
He was known for fits of what was then called “melancholy”. So certainly he did plenty of crying. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t weeping only for himself, though.
I’m sure he really did cry over her death. But probably because he felt he had been let down. Which he had, but it’s a pity he couldn’t have shown mercy to such a young woman. Perhaps he thought it would be perceived as weakness? Shocking to us today.
I appreciate that you never sugarcoat your thoughts and opinions on these things. It's a rare thing in some spaces now, but it really gives an excellent perspective i may not have seen before. Thank you!
You're very welcome. It's a tricky line to toe sometimes, but I don't want to lie to people and I'm a believer in seeing history for what it really was and not what we want it to have been.
I agree. When history is whitewashed or only the positive aspects are promoted and none of the unpleasant and “messy” bits are ever mentioned we are doing no favors to the students and readers who are learning this material. When the true facts are revealed these people feel like they’ve been duped and no longer trust the history teachers and professors, the historians and the authors of histories and biographies which is so unfortunate. A good knowledge of history is important if we are to function as knowledgeable citizens who can make informed decisions about present issues and future ones by understanding the past.
I have a soft spot for her even if my first impression of her life was that she was very reckless and immature. I think is so sad that she never have someone to take care of her and teach her better about life in general in those times and then, the terrible bad luck of caught the eye of Henry VIII. If he wasn't attracted to her, she would have been a random lady in waiting and with a very random marriage and a relatively easy life for the times. Her story just makes me sad.
@HistoryCalling it so does! Thank you so much for the extraordinary effort you put into these videos. I binge watch them. I hope you consider going into other Royal families in time...Scandinavians, Hanover, etc... warmest regards from Australia.
I do think it plausible for a girl with as little life experience as she had, whose main dealings with men had been them being so completely taken with her (petulant & jealous Dereham, incapable of getting over her; lovestruck Henry, ignoring her complete lack of qualifications for queenhood and showering her in gifts and affection; Culpepper, risking life & limb just to be alone with her), to believe somehow that even if things came to light, she could avoid the axe, at the very least. I can also only imagine the desperation of a teenager experiencing the overwhelming feelings of young “love,” yet forced into a marriage with a foul-smelling, piggish middle-aged man old enough to be her grandfather. Her judgment was certainly clouded, but I have so much sympathy for her and feel she was failed by every guardian figure in her life. Cultural & moral differences of her time period aside, it’s hard not to view her and the tragedy of her life through a modern lens.
I absolutely agree that she is a total tragedy and not well cared for by all those in her life who should have been teaching and nurturing her. Perhaps she did have a feeling of invincibility, that she'd be able to get out of any trouble she got into. We'll never know :-(
❤ I'm enjoying this even more on second viewing, HC. You mention "nuance" at one point and I think that's especially important as we have to deal with the blatant misogyny of Katherine's time (not that it's still not an issue). Katherine may not have been an "innocent" victim, but she was indeed a victim of the brutality of Henry and his sycophants. I'm glad you got around to a full biography of Katherine. Thanks for this, HC. Have a good week. 🙏🏼
Thanks Stephen. Yes, I can't believe I didn't already have a bio of her. They're generally tough to do for people who lived to be a respectable age because it takes such a long time to get through their lives, but for someone who died as young as KH I really should have gotten to her before now. Yes, nuance when looking at Katherine's life is indeed important. Have a lovely week too :-)
Great video, thank you. I can't believe she'd have been crazy enough to sleep with Culpepper knowing what happened to her cousin who didn't even do anything.
Great video! I think Katherine was so poorly brought up that it's hard to imagine her behaving in any other way than she did as a young adult. Marrying Henry was never going to end well for her, especially since it's more than a little apparent that she had even less intelligence than virtue. No, she didn't deserve her ultimate fate, but it would be to the astonishment of all if Henry _didn't_ have her executed. A sad story all around, and one that was probably recounted as a cautionary tale for quite some time. Edited to add: Yes, I think she had adultery. It takes quite a lot of willpower to roll around in the sheets and then actually stop because you just remembered you're married to a King who would easily have you executed. I don't think Katherine had that kind of willpower.
Yes, she never really had a chance when you look at her background. If her family had been wiser they'd have come clean to Henry about her right away, but I think everyone was just a bit dazzled by the opportunity to have another Queen in the family.
It helps to remember that Katherine might not have known the full details about what had happened to Anne. She would have been a child at the time of Anne’s death, so unless someone told her the entire story, she might not have known.
Anne of Cleaves ,was an extremely intelligent woman,Henry him self recognised what an extraordinary women she was and enjoyed cards and conversations with her ,she outlived Henry and was much loved by Elisabeth.
What I find odd is Jane Boleyn assisting Katherine to meet with Culpepper. Jane knew better than anyone there how easily Henry could have a queen killed for any hint of adultery, even if she was innocent. So, did Katherine threaten her into helping with the Culpepper meetings?
No one has ever been able to satisfactorily explain what on earth Jane Boleyn was thinking because as you say, her actions just make no sense. My best guess is that she was an idiot.
I struggle from today’s perspective to understand how Katherine knew everything that happened to her cousins and Henry’s other wives that she’d act so foolishly. Was she sheltered from the gossip and was truly naive to the risk?! I find this hard to believe.
To be honest, I really think it's a case of carrying one's brains below the waist. Normally attributed to men, but in this case, it seems to have been different. I suppose she just liked men, had learnt she could get away with acting upon it and when the first thrill of being queen had worn off realized what her life as Henry's wife would be like in this regard (smelly, disgusting and certainly not too pleasing) and so decided to do what men did (having something cute on the side). Idiotic, of course, but feasible.
I think she knew about Mary and Anne but was just very foolhardy and didn't think she'd get caught. She was much younger and to be blunt, nowhere near as clever as AB in particular (and even AB ended up dead at Henry's hands).
I'm not surprised given how her upbringing went. She got caught kissing a secretary and was only scolded. Then she was the one who stole and copied the key to the girls' room. She was used to being popular and pretty, she was still young and not thinking much about consequences, and she'd never expected to be queen nor prepared for that level of scrutiny. Even Anne, who was extremely intelligent, made comments that were later used against her.
I agree: it seems unreasonable to acquit Katherine of all responsibility in her relationship with Culpepper. Regardless of her largely unsupervised childhood, she had become an adult and had every reason to know her husband was not a forgiving man at the *best* of times.
Yes, I don't think it's right to act as though as though she had the mental age of a 10 year old. She was old enough at that stage to know better and the lengths she went to to hide her association with Culpepper indicate that she knew she was playing with fire.
When I was 19 I thought the world would end if I couldn't go out to the clubs or pubs on a Friday night and I thought it was a great idea to get a tattoo and a piercing in the middle of my chin (20+ years later, still has a scar and I regret I've regretted the tattoo for years) and I was smart and at uni, unlike her. Katherine was an airhead child. Yes, she knew it was wrong but I don't think she fully grasped the full implications of her actions even with the other Queens. When you're that age you're invincible. You think "that's never going to happen to me".
@@Dee-mj3pu I'm in my early 40s and yes, 21 is a child. Absolutely clueless. I was still going around in outrageous clothing (OK so that's only toned down a bit) and at uni and partying all the time.
As someone who went to a boarding school, I can attest that the girls do have a kind of freedom normally not enjoyed by parental scrutiny. Mine was an American school in the UK. Basically it was nuts.
I've always found people's boarding school stories really interesting. I didn't go to one myself, so it's something I've never experienced and never will and I'm just always fascinated to hear what it was like. Why was yours nuts for instance?
@@HistoryCalling haha...we had young teachers who had no trouble "dating" some of us students. Never mind the drinking, house parties at the homes of absent parents of the few kids who were day students, kids who trekked to amsterdam not for the museums, a headmaster that was a fascist, but never really got any goods on us. It was a small school and we were feral. Though once some local comprehensive girls school kicked our butts while we were out hanging. English girls are the come to Jesus of absolute meanness.
@@HistoryCalling Anne of Cleves here. Certainly also not terribly well educated, but innately cleverer, and certainly some years older. But Katherine H was for sure not the brightest bulb in the chandelier...
I'm a Jane Seymour fan. I think she was good at controlling Henry's emotions and being the quiet, unassuming power behind the throne. I do have a soft spot for Katherine Howard. But I think Anne of Cleaves ultimately won and came off the best of all the wives.
Thank you for highlighting Garreth Russell frequently in your video as his book 'Young and Damned and Fair' is in my opinion a must read - if you haven't read his recent book about Hampton Court Palace, that is a must read too :)
I have often wondered what exactly could compel a person to bless the king right before their execution. I understand that it was custom, and if one is guilty, fine. But Anne Boleyn did this also, and most historians agree that she was innocent of the charges against her. That would seem a hard pill to swallow. Although I guess in Anne's case, she may well have been thinking about the daughter she was leaving behind unprotected.
It was the custom as you say and just so expected and accepted that one wouldn't really have thought of doing otherwise. People wanted to make a 'good' death and not risk committing a fresh sin right at the last moment.
Well, Anne Boleyns case, she did it to try and protect Princess Elizabeth, I'd wager. And the rest of her family that he hadn't already executed. In Katherines case I assume that it was because she knew she was guilty of cheating with Culpepper, and she truly was sorry. Furthermore, It occurred to me, perhaps, for both women, there could have been some hope in their hearts that Henry would not go through with the executions and thought that those praises of adoration would save not only their lives, but their positions?
Anne blessed the King before her execution because she was probably terrified her daughter would be ostracized, or even executed/made to 'disappear' by Henry. You have to remember in those days people were extremely religious, and really believed in heaven/hell and the wrath of God, so you forgave everybody before your execution, hoping that you would be looked upon favourably to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We view things too much from modern perspectives. And life was not long in those days; most people were lucky to live to the age of 40, so women got married early to have children, and betrothed at birth sometimes. This was not child abuse as we define that term in Western society - I've had friends from other countries who were betrothed and married at an early age.
I really wish we knew more about her😭 it’s not that weird that we don’t, she was, as you said, a minor member of the Howard family, and during her queenship I suppose people were more concerned with other matters, but still😭 it’s the history enthusiast (and Historian’s) nightmare
I'm not trying to shame Catherine Howard because she's my favorite of the 6 wives if only because she was so young and never did anyone harm [unlike her cousin Anne] and did not have proper guidance and should not have been executed, but, WOW, she was a piece of work! Even in today's liberated world, she would be considered a hussy. What was she then in 16th century England? I shudder to think.
Thanks for doing such a great job on all of your video’s, replying to so many comments and truly caring about your viewers. This makes such a difference. So much better than some channels where everyone is blatantly ignored. Hugz, Tree
You're very welcome. I try to get through the first 24 hours' worth of comments on a new video (though that is sometimes not possible if there are 100s and 100s of them). I wish I could do more, but I'd never be able to make new videos if I did :-)
What a sad story. Thank you for sharing all the unhappy details. I never realized how much documentation there actually was about her life. I remember Emily Blunt giving a very impressive performance as Katherine in one of the BBC productions, but that script called for Katherine to be shameless, even defiant in her affair with Culpepper. I don't know if it mattered to the king whether Katherine actually slept with Culpepper or just displayed a horrible lack of discretion in her flirtation with him, because all the revelations about her earlier relationships made this marriage look like a such a disastrous mistake.
The documents from after her arrest are really the goldmine here. Without them we'd know almost nothing about her before she arrived at court in late 1540.
I suspect the wound to his ego that his 'rose without a thorn' was running after a younger, fitter and less putrid man was even flirting with someone else would probably have been enough, tyrant that he was. Dereham was pretty brutally executed for not really having done anything illegal, just bruising to the King's ego
While I agree with you that Katherine Howard was not a brainless dupe of the men (other than her husband) with whom she had physical and/or emotional relationships with I personally think that she was also behaving like a typical teen. (Yes, I do know that the concept of being a teenager wasn’t something that was a part of Tudor/Renaissance society.) I think back on my own teenage years and am appalled by how reckless and willful I could be on occasion. Also, most teens don’t often think ahead about the consequences, including the possible unintended ones, that their words and actions might have on themselves and others. I feel sorry for Katherine because she really didn’t have a responsible adult in her life to guide her, teach her the do’s and don’ts of Tudor society/court and just give her the adult attention, instruction and support that she so desperately needed! Her dad basically abandoned her; her mother died; and her step-grandmother was a careless guardian. So, while Katherine wasn’t forced into any of her “illicit” relationships and made unfortunate decisions regarding those relationships I do think that her story would have been very different if the adults responsible for her wellbeing had actually done their job and not have left her to her own devices. PS. I have never understood why Jane Rochford behaved the way she did towards Katherine. Was she living vicariously through Katherine? She surely knew what a dangerous situation she and Katherine were in because her own husband had been executed by Henry VIII for alleged adultery and incest. Was she mentally ill? Did she enjoy “being at the top” at court so much that she became reckless which then blinded her to the very real and present danger that was part of being a member of Henry’s court? Would you recommend a good biography about her? I’ve already read Gareth Russell’s marvelous biography on Katherine. (My apologies for the long post!)
Regardless of how she behaved it doesn’t change the fact that she was 13 when the sexual abuse started. She was abused by men who were much older than her. Men who should’ve known better, but had no morals and thought it was completely okay to take advantage of a naive and impressionable teenager.
I disagree that this comment is wrong. Many women were seen as property/possessions and in order for men to enhance within court, their women were used unscrupulously!
I do not believe she was sacrificed to Henry at all. I suspect Uncle Norfolk was operating in “oh s#!t mode” through this whole sad situation. If Uncle Norfolk was going to throw another niece into Henry’s path intentionally she would have been specifically educated to be another Jane Seymour. He knew all too well what happened to his nieces when they displeased Henry and wouldn’t have risked a girl he hadn’t had direct control over for some time before hand to be certain of her behavior and obedience.
Another wonderful video, as always. And, as always, beautiful images and video to go along with it. I enjoy the fact that you zhow them for long enough for people to take in all the detail and i must confess that i sort of play a "where's Waldo" with your images, looking for your watermark and writing on each image, declaring it was you who took the pictures! I love the fact that you claim your work to protect it from people who would steal it and that your wateemark and other writing are discrete enough to not distract from the images. It took me a bit to see the tiny letters in the french hoods or in the necklines of the clothes. Loved it, as usual.
I think the exact same thing about the watermarks. I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers Where's Waldo (Wally in the UK). Honestly I'd rather not have to go to those lengths of course as it takes so long to watermark everything, but it's all I can do unfortunately :-( I do try to place them in somewhat unobtrusive places (like the hoods and necklines).
I am always moved by the biography of Katherine Howard. Thank you. I liked that you presented a different viewpoint on the validity of the victimization theory. I will have to ponder that a bit more before I make my own conclusion 😀
Thank you. Yes, you may well disagree with me of course (which is totally fine), but I don't think she was quite as weak and helpless as she is often portrayed.
I use to think of Katherine as a total victim but The fact that Katherine choose to break off her relationships with Manox & Dareham tells me that she knew what she was doing & was not groomed or abused. Perhaps just too young, Didn’t have enough moral guidance & gravitated to the wrong type of men. Since these two seem to have been jerks. As for Culpeper, I think she wholeheartedly pursued this relationship & was in denial as to the consequences. As Queen, how could she not realize how she was held accountable to a higher standard? She obviously did not learn from what happened to her cousin Anne Boleyn. Such a tragic end to such a young person
I really see her as an abused child. When that is what she was exposed to, it is difficult to make the right choices as an adult. So I still think she's the victim. She was groomed as a young child. You'd hope she would have been smart enough to not fall to Boyeln's fate and made better decisions, but I think from modern eyes, the abuse she suffered when she was too young to consent likely impacted her ability to make reasonable decisions.
It is a mercy when grooming/abuse victims manage to leave their abusers, and in no way does that choice mean they therefore "knew what they were doing" and weren't groomed or abused. Even more so when we're talking about somebody who'd barely hit puberty when the 'relationship' started. Tudor society wasn't enlightened enough to understand that, ours ought to be
Agree and her family , although not supportive , would have made her aware of cousin Anne Boleyn. How many chances does a family need ?, 2 queens and both lost their lives .Anne was set up but the other foolish
She's on my list. Bio videos are just a lot tougher to do for people who lived a long life as they take so long to research and put together. Even Katherine (a girl who barely made 20) still took 45 minutes to get through.
I also look forward to your eventual video about Margaret. It is, indeed, a tall order...but I know that your research and presentation will be impeccable. She's been covered in historical fiction, but history lovers yearn for the facts as only you present them. Thanks for what you do!
This is a really good history video and it was explained very well , I learned a lot, I've been learning a lot about history lately from TH-cam, and I subscribed to this channel because you make it very interesting when you explain everything.😊❤❤❤❤
You're welcome. I really should have already had a bio on her before now. It was a bit of an oversight. I have a few others coming too actually to plug some of the other gaps on my channel.
@@HistoryCalling It's me again, on another account. I just started Starkey's "Six Wives." His introduction is SO self-congratulatory, but he does such good work, I can forgive him that. lol
That's a very good book though, for an intro. to all six wives and his writing style is generally very readable, so do stick with it. I just picked up his Virtuous Prince this afternoon to check something and had a similar response to the first few pages, but the research will be solid I'm sure.
@@HistoryCallingStarkey sort of prides himself on being a prickly character. Seems he enjoys being perceived as a contrarian. He’s the type who would definitely be on Fox News a lot if he was American, if you know what I mean…
Superb as always HC, Katherine knew right from wrong apart from being nieve at times as young people tend to be, she did commit adultery, In her defence she was let down by some of the people she trusted, she certainly did not deserve her fate we all make mistakes she paid the full price for hers, thank you as always HC. 👍☺️
Thanks Simon. Yes, whatever her faults they weren't worthy of the death sentence. Henry was a serial adulterer, abusive parent and a double wife killer and he didn't get executed after all.
Lovely video ! Talking about if Catherine should have known better and should be treated the same way we treated Mary Tudor and her relationship with Charles Brandon, I half-agree. Yes, the two women were of the same age and had long passed the age of adolescence to make rational decisions and suffer the consequences. But one was a well-educated princess that had the time to experience adulthood and deal with important charges (that she was well-trained for since her birth), the other one was a neglected kid poorly watched over and educated that wasn't prepared to manage a queen's household (as you said)... I think the only way of changing if one should be more respected for her decisions than the other should depend on their level of maturity and the only way of knowing if Mary was more mature than Catherine would be to meet the ladies in person (which is not possible)... Moreover, I think we praise Mary Tudor for a second marriage because we love historic lovematches (especially when they happen on a person who, by birth, was forced to marry with questionning it) but we must also recognize that Mary's decision was a little bit rash: she knew she'd angered her brother in a way that would probably make her life miserable forever (perhaps she brushed it off) and the only reason why she would have wanted to rush her union with someone of her choosing would have been because she was more terrified of getting married to some crowned stranger (looks like she was genuinely traumatised by Louis XII of France) and genuinely believe she would gain independance and freedom from Brandon than from anyone else...
I’ve recently discovered your channel and am loving it! But, truth be told, you could read the phone book out loud and I’d tune in just to listen to your delicious accent. 😊
The biggest culprits of the whole situation are those - like the step-grandmother - who let a girl be put in situations ripe for abuse while failing to educate her. A lack of means for a high-class upbringing is a major hindrance, but not an excuse.
Greeting from Ohio. Thank you so much for all your hard work! I enjoy listening to your videos and look forward to more entertaining lessons in history.
Thank you so much for this video! I truly admire how you point out that we shouldn't apply our modern standards and morals to earlier periods of human history, no matter what our views on certain aspects of life are nowadays. To the subject of today's video, on the one hand I feel sorry for her, she was somewhat neglected by people in charge of her even by the standards of the period, so it's sad to see that these mistakes were part of her downfall, but on the other hand she made the very same mistake by being rather publicly involved in relationships with men again and again. While I doubt she could have avoided her fate, what IF she had just avoided Culpeper!
Yes, I feel very sorry for her too. While I think she bears some responsibility for her fate, she was still very young, frankly not terribly bright it would seem, not well educated in the ways of court and the world and certainly not deserving of her ultimate fate. As for what would have happened if Culpepper hadn't been in the picture, it's hard to say. She still had the problematic Dereham to deal with and she might have fond other suitors along the way.
very interesting that Henry initiated the match - I always thought the Howards pushed the idea - as you say they should have stopped it then before the girl's history almost cost the Duke his head - too bad the Howards weren't very bright - ty HC
I suppose the Howards were so burnt by what happened to AB it might not have occurred to them to attempt to provide another Queen, esp. so soon after the Cleves' marriage.
@@HistoryCalling - Henry showed some interest and they hoped he'd never find out about her past I guess - the old Duke spent a few years in the Tower over it
It was incredibly short sighted. These sorts of things always come out. Far too many people knew what she'd got up to at the Dowager Duchess's for it to ever stay hidden.
@@HistoryCalling I don't understand how the king could not have known anything about her past if everyone else knew. Did he even hear rumours and dismiss them? It must have been the case that no one really cared about the situation (or the king himself) enough to give old Henry a "heads up", and were content to watch the show unfold. It is apparent that noone cared enough about Katherine to intervene on her behalf before it was too late. How sad.
@@maryannpshock955 The king was in a bit of a bubble. There were probably reasons that this tittle tattle might not have reached him. Maybe it was thought that the doings of a minor member of the Howard family were not important enough to share with him. Maybe even the Duke didn't really know the extent of Katherine's compromising behavior.
The source of all of the devastation and death during this time of Tudor history can only be leveled at one person :: KingHenryVIII. Everyone else is collateral damage. It was Henry’s impulsivity and poor judgment that caused him to marry a girl so much younger than him, and yet, when anything bad happens in his life, somebody must be blamed and killed, whether it be Cromwell. Anne B, or Catherine Howard.
Yes, Henry was terrible at taking responsibility for his own messes and also at being told her couldn't have something (like an annulment). There always had to be a scapegoat.
I agree with you HC. I don't and never have believed that Katherine was abused or groomed. She was an instigator and fully complicit in her actions. That said, I don't think in any way that she deserved her terrible fate. Oh that she'd never married the despicable Henry Vlll. Poor girl.
Yes, she had such a short and tragic life. Really all she seems to have wanted was to have a nice time and for the others around her to enjoy themselves too. Hardly worthy of a death sentence :-(
I think she probably did commit adultery with Culpepper, given neither she nor he had a reputation for reigning in their desires, and given Jane Boleyn was arranging secret meetings between them. Her story always strikes me as terribly sad. She was no schemer like Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour, both of whom carefully orchestrated their seduction of Henry. She was no political animal like Katherine of Aragon or Anne of Cleves, one of whom used her political influence to cling on for years and the other of whom had just enough influence to arrange her own safety while also being happy to surrender to comfortable defeat. And she didn’t have the education and intelligence of Katherine Parr, who was the only one of Henry’s wives to walk herself into a death warrant and then talk her way out of it, and who may have been in love with another man while Henry courted and wed her, but who gave no sign of it until Henry was dead. I think Katherine Howard was smarter and less shallow than most people give her credit for given what few records we have from her brief time as Queen, but she was a very ordinary girl who was thrust to the forefront of a particularly vicious court, she had let her heart rule her head from her early days, and she soon got in well over her head, with her family’s enemies taking full advantage of that. She was exploited by people who should have protected her. She was thrown into a position she was utterly unsuited for but couldn’t say no to. She had a past she couldn’t cover up. She fell in love and couldn’t resist. She seems far more wronged than wrong.
Yes, it's a pity she didn't play the long game as Catherine Parr did and wait for Henry to die before going after the man she really wanted. She still would have only been in her mid 20s.
That is well said, especially about her being an ordinary girl, which is what Gareth Russell thinks too, and why he thinks the story of her fall is so particularly pitiful and sad.
To say that Catherine Howard was "not entirely blameless" is a rather large understatement. She was guilty of virtually all of the charges that were brought against her. A real mitigating factor was her age and even that may be a stretch. Fidelity and paternity were everything to a monarch of that era. They didn't have testing back then. The king had to be able to trust his wife. The integrity of the bloodline depended on it.
I've been watching a lot of videos in the last 4 days about the Queens of King Henry the 8th , and then losing their heads , and I thought, " what would it feel like to just be laying there with your head on the block" and Ibwonder "what would I think about".....this, is what I would think... Because I'm a Christian, I would focus my mind on seeing Jesus and being in heaven and being with God in a happy wonderful beautiful place , because the way things were back in those days, heaven would definitely have to be so much better in so many ways , than how life was for people back then , and that is honestly what I would think before my head got chopped off.🌟👑
Yes, it suddenly dawned on me that I'd never done a biography of Katherine and I thought that was a bit of an oversight. She had some happy times too, so it's not all doom and gloom.
Kathryn's family and associates did not throw her under the bus - they threw her under an entire FLEET of buses. What she was the most guilty of is appallingly poor judgment. While yes, some examples from the sources indicate she was old enough to know right from wrong, there is an old Southern saying that covers her - "Old enough to know better, too young to resist." It is getting easier to see that she was not "groomed" as we think of it today, but both Henry Mannox and Francis Dereham did take advantage of Kathryn's naivete and poor judgment. I think Kathryn did not take the "out" that she was precontracted to Dereham; that would have meant a sharp drop in station, status and wealth, and having a jealous, loud mouthed idiot in charge of her life, as she would have been considered Dereham's "property" as his wife. I am surprised the Howards did not have Francis Dereham silenced. It would not have been at all out of character for Thomas Howard to have somehow arranged an "accident." It is also surprising that Henry Mannox did not lose his head.
Yes, she was very poorly cared for and advised. The dowager duchess obviously shouldn't have had the charge of all those young ladies. She wasn't up to the job of looking after them properly. I don't think Katherine even realised that a marriage to Dereham might have been her 'out'. Annoying as he was, better to be alive and married to him than executed. Mannox was very lucky. I'm amazed he lived to tell the tale as well.
@@HistoryCalling Do you think Henry would have spared her if she could have proved pre-contract? My own opinion is that he would have found some other means of judicially murdering her. Her presence was too painful for him to tolerate, I think.
The most tragic was henrys first wife Katherine. To be set aside as old and not really married, after 19 years is very sad and any man who does that is horrible. K H knew what H8 was like and knew his propensity for ridding himself of wives. She also knew H8 was married and she replaced his wife Anne of Cleves. She was young but more than that she was stupid.
How much agency did an infatuated, man-crazy teen such as KH have to exercise against the impregnable authority of an infatuated, much-married, grotesque, middle-aged KH8?
I've got that one on my bookshelf to read afterwards funnily enough, the Wilkinson one is very easy to read and calls quite a lot on Charles de Marillac for the information
One difference between Mary Tudor, Henry's sister who remarried Charles Brandon, and Katherine Howard is their upbringing and education. Mary, being a daughter of a king and sister to another would have been well-educated and had responsible governesses who took better care of her, while Katherine was poorly educated and received very poor supervision and parenting from her step-grandmother. Also difference in personality can have been a factor. Former queen of France Mary may have had a bolder personality to go after what she wanted and the confidence and courage to risk her brother's wrath to do it. I wonder about Jane Rochford. Considering she was the wife of George Boleyn she would have known what happened to him and Anne. Why didn't she prevent Katherine Howard and Culpepper from being together? It seems like another failure of older figures to protect an inexperienced and foolish young queen.
Indeed. And I also think the nature of the respective risks Mary and Katherine took in itself betrays a difference in smarts. Mary's was large, but not so ludicrous on its merits - and indeed it did pay off for her in the end, albeit it at great financial cost, in a way Katherine's simply never could've. I can easily place myself in Mary's shoes and see what logic might've led her to the decision, but Katherine on the other hand... even allowing for the laxity in her upbringing, that was an absolutely insane risk to take
I would argue that a big part of the difference between Katherine Howard and Mary Tudor Brandon. Is that when Mary married Charles- is that she had to be pursuing the marriage, how easy would it have been for her to say no, to say my brother the king will be furious with both us. By Marrying Charles she was taking a risk. Because she wanted him. Where as Katherine- how could she say no. He was the king. We see the same thing with Catherine Parr. They both were not invested in a marriage with Henry. Parr because she was already in love; Howard seemingly less averse to the match, but far too youthful in spirit, at least, to be queen. It is not a matter of age. It is a matter of position and strength to be able to say No to Henry the 8th.
Mary Tudor also had had the benefit of a good upbringing in the royal household, and the assurance of her birthright position as the daughter and sister of kings. Katherine did not have the same advantages, either of birth or education/ upbringing, so she was out of her depth pretty much her entire life. The only thing that might have saved her life would have been becoming pregnant immediately and giving birth to a healthy son 9 months after the wedding, although not if the baby’s paternity was called into question.
As to weather Catherine new as much as Henry's sister Mary did, Mary was brought up in the politics of royalty. So she knew a lot more about how things should go. Catherine seems to have been brought up without the knowledge that she needed to be queen or even a mistress of the king. My opinion
I do believe she committed adultery, especially as it was considered, at the time, that consummation, was the most important aspect of being married. The ceremony was secondary. I'm sure she knew just what she was doing. She had seen, or heard, of all that had been happening in the court. While she may have been Queen, she was still very young and Henry was a very fat man who may have been quite repugnant to her, especially in the marital bed. When I look at history, I try to leave all of my 20th & 21st Century attitudes out of it. I do find it interesting that one of your longest videos goes to Henry's wife who had the shortest life and tenure. 😊
I know. I didn't mean for it to get this long and to be honest I thought I'd be able to cover such a short life in a briefer video too, but darn it, there's just so much to unpack with Katherine ☺ Thank goodness I didn't have to explain her date of birth and portraiture as well, or it would have gone on even longer. At least I already have videos on those topics.
I agree with others that Mary Tudor was cut from different cloth than KH. Mary was daughter and sister of kings, and would have had a very different upbringing than KH. She would certainly have had a better idea of actions and consequences for royal ladies, and it strikes me Mary was brighter than her sister-in-law. Katherine may well have had not as much idea of how thin the ice she was skating on; but as you say, in the Culpeper situation, she DID know what she was doing was wrong. And she chose to do it anyway - she's not a blameless victim here. On a tangential point, I find it interesting that it was her situation that introduced Royal Assent to bills not having to be provided by the monarch in person -- but nearly always these days by commission appointed for the task. Henry couldn't face assenting to the Bill of Attainder, so a commission did it for him. Anne Boleyn was condemned by a legal trial (rigged though it was) so the King didn't actually have to pronounce the death sentence. Then again, he would have had to sign the death warrant, so I'm not clear why he got so picky in KH's case
I wonder if Henry didn't want a trial because in this case, he knew he'd been cuckolded (or heavily suspected it) and didn't want to be embarrassed? In Anne's case, he knew she'd been faithful and he knew that everyone else knew it too.
@@HistoryCalling If memory serves, George Boleyn read testimony at his trial that Henry was impotent. Henry may not have expected that perhaps, and may not have cared to repeat the experience, with the added revelation that he'd probably been cuckolded.
This was a very comprehensive history of Catherine Howard and I thank you for your thorough research. I was always of the opinion that CH was a reckless and stupid girl, who plotted to conceive a child with Culpepper because the King was unable to perform. But having listened to your complete and detailed outline, I feel rather more sympathetic toward her. I've always wondered what in heaven she could have been about, if not Treason with Culpepper and assumed he was as idiotic, undisciplined and reckless as she. But I wonder, could she have been contemplating release from the marriage, such as she'd seen with the most recent of Henry's other wives, Anne of Cleves? Anne had been their honored guest at Christmas, and it may have presented Catherine with a plan, one that would have given her status, income and perhaps the man of her dreams. If she could outlive Henry, or be rejected by him, and go quietly, as Anne had, she could have Culpepper. This could have been what they were doing closeted up together - hatching this plan. Clearly they were romantically involved, which itself would have been treason. But now I don't think she was foolish enough to try to conceive with him. I think perhaps she was coping with her marriage to a sickly, overweight, elderly man who left her too often to herself, but never free. Perhaps she sought Culpepper's advice, as the only MAN she could trust with the knowledge that she wanted out of the marriage? She may have sought HIS advice either to understand why Henry couldn't, and what to do about it, what it meant about his health, or inclination. Had she failed in some way, or did Henry's desire for her fail? Did it mean he'd release her? She may never have encountered a man who didn't rise to the occasion. ;-)
Thanks Mary Lou. I'm glad yo found it helpful in understanding more about KH's life. I don't know if she would have thought of getting out of the marriage. Henry had annulled the unions with CoA and AC, it's true, but they were foreign princesses who would have been much harder to kill and they hadn't cheated on him. Her cousin Anne (who also hadn't cheated) lived just long enough to see her marriage annulled too and was then executed. I don't personally think KH and Culpepper were hoping for a happy ending unless Henry died first and they could have a Katherine of Valois/Owen Tudor kind of ending.
@@HistoryCalling True, and I didn't take into account that CoA, and AC were foreign princesses. But my point is that she may have entertained the idea that she could be widowed early, due to Henry's poor health, or released from the marriage based on NOT conceiving as (in her mind) AC apparently was. I'm not saying it was a good plan, but it is an alternative to her just thinking she could cheat on the King and possibly pass off any consequences as his offspring, which is what I always assumed. I think she was looking for advice from a male perspective, having been deprived of a father figure from a young age. Culpepper was close to the King, and knew things others, especially women wouldn't have known. I think Culpepper saw an opportunity to eventually marry the dowager Queen. For me, it makes more sense than simple lust in that high stakes game.
Queen Kathryn truly so upsetting. She was likely the least politically motivated Queen and was & could of been not just the Queen Henry needed, but the court. She was graceful & joyful (she had her moments) but I think she had it in her to be a positive influence for England.
Yes, I don't think she was really interested in politics either and a neutral Queen would have been valuable to Henry at that point. She's basically the English version of a Greek tragedy. :-(
Poor Katherine Howard Groomed young at that place she was raised I thought the TUDORS drama represented her life and marriage to Henry Very realistically
I wouldn't say her early upbringing means she had no agency in the Culpepper debacle, but she (like all of us) was the sum of her experiences and those up until that point hadn't set her up for political or relationship savvy. Tudor society wouldn't have the modern understanding of grooming, but the impact would occur regardless. Couple that with the lack of education/experience due to the lax supervision, the lack of consequences for the previous affairs probably imbuing a false sense of security, throw in Henry who cleverer minds failed to manage, the disaster feels almost inevitable. I still wouldn't absolve her from the Culpepper choice - she was older at that point and the political naivete is pretty inexcusable for anyone in the court, never mind a relative of Anne Boleyn - but on balance I still see her previous victim status as important context for it. (And while I'd never refer to Mary Tudor as a girl boss, given the restraints of the time and her position, I'd still see her at 19 having had relatively more power and agency than Katherine given the difference in training)
Katherine Howard's Father is my 16th Great Grandfather. Tracing my tree to the Tudor kings and beyond on a direct line is the most fascinating thing I've ever done. If you haven't already I highly recommend it.
I think Katherine committed adultery. But I'm baffled by Lady Rochford though. She saw what happened to her husband and sister-in-law. I don't understand why she'd help Katherine sneak around.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY GENEROUS DONATION. Yes, Jane Boleyn's motives continue to be a mystery. Her actions really make no sense. Possibly she was just an idiot though?
This was so interesting and well written. I was better able to map out the Pole family tree and tragically see how many people were executed. Thank you!
I never knew that Kathryn's life was so tragic. Sounds to me like she was used and abused by more than just the men in her life. Such a sad life. I think she may have felt trapped by Henry when he decided to marry her. There was no graceful way out. Then when she was promised mercy she told all and later tried to paint herself a victim probably hoping for Henry to offer her a divorce as he had her predecessor, Anne of Cleves. Instead it sounds like at this point in his life he had become quite vicious and had no intentions of offering her mercy. What is more heart breaking was that so many people turned against her and used her downfall to further thier own gain. I'm fully aware that she in a way was responsible for her own downfall by having an affair while queen, but I feel her punishment was far more harsh than the crime called for. On a side note something you said sbout Kathryn escaping and running to try to find Henry to beg for mercy reminded me of something i heard in my youth about her cousin Anne Boleyn. I heard that after her miscarriage that she began to lose her sanity and that sometimes she would have a mad laugh. Probably something that would be considered today as a nervous laugh due to the stress upon her to produce a male heir. Do you have any recommendations for where I can either confirm or deny this? Thanks
Hmm, I don't remember ever hearing the story about Anne (other than sometimes she would laugh hysterically in the Tower in her final days). You could check Eric Ives' bio of her. If it's not mentioned there then I very much doubt it happened.
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. Katherine Parr is my favorite historical person in history. Who's your favorite historical person in the Tudor marachy? How are you doing? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. We have lots of warm weather in Ontario Canada. How is the weather where you are? Have a great day see you next video 😊
My favourite person in Tudor history is probably Elizabeth I (a boring answer I know, but she was brill). Glad to hear you're both keeping well. The weather here is rather underwhelming for the time of year unfortunately. :-(
Although my view of her completely matches the one expressed (and substantiated) here, I think she was the most ill-treated in "The Tudors", which I saw a few months ago: a leering portrait of a giggling nymphette, naked on a swing as the camera ogled her endlessly. (And I gallantly averted my eyes, I promise! [No, I didn't]). My basic objection to that series was not historical, but a filmmaking one- the decision to play it as a soap opera, with arms waving, a constant flow of glamour, steam, hysteria, and shirtlessness, and a general over-the-top acting style that kept me from ever quite believing it. The casting of "young hotties" in most of the roles sealed the matter. So while Katherine Howard might not have been purely the victim some prefer to see, her fate in that show was too uncomplicated in the opposite direction: not so much inaccurate as mean-spirited, I thought, right down to the final indignity: she wets herself on the scaffold. Poor Katherine.
The performance I struggled with the most was Henry: I've seen JRM be very good in something else, but he had no chance in this context, being horribly miscast, and probably horribly directed. The giddy, drunk-with-power-every-single-moment, over-seething eventually made me dread his entrances, grabbing people's heads and trying to create erotic tension with every single man in every single scene...I would not have done well in his court. Don't like people touching my head. Especially if they're Henry VIII.
I remember that exact scene and I thought it was totally gratuitous as well, as was the one of her the night before her death, naked and trying out the block (she did try out the block, but I'm sure she wasn't naked for it). The Tudors is fine for guilty pleasure entertainment, but I agree you don't want to go taking it literally. That said, it is more accurate than it needed to be and still a lot better than some other shows in terms of historical accuracy (cough, Reign, cough Bridgerton).
@@HistoryCalling Yeah, 'guilty pleasure' is a good description, and I certainly enjoyed it and hung in with it. And I don't mind soapy stuff at all, but I don't think the super-broad acting and so forth always mixes well with real people and their stories.
i feel bad for her. she wasn't taught better. She was still very young and had been behaving this way for so long without real reproach or consequences
Katharine was a girl of loose morals. Not a judgement , just a fact. It drives me nuts when people today project their very modern views onto the morals of these people. They simply didn’t think like us-they all new this was high stakes and literally life and death. She aimed high but was immature and frankly stupid-she paid a heavy price. She sounds like she was fun but a bit of a floozy!
I certainly think she could have been better taught about how to behave by those who had the responsibility of raising her. You never heard a whiff (beyond obvious attempts at slander) directed at Anne Boleyn of any improper behaviour before or after her marriage, except with the King of course. The accusations made against her at the end were very clearly invented, whereas no such invention was needed for KH.
@@HistoryCalling She was taught how to behave in terms of manners and accomplishments, but no one troubled to give her any kind of moral education--it was all externals. Maybe most of all, she had not grown up with loving parents, and maybe (pure speculation) she was looking for love to make up for that. I often think of Edward and Elizabeth and Mary as being very alone. They had their father, but he was not a loving one, and their mothers were gone. Elizabeth at least had servants who loved her and took care of her, and perhaps Mary as well. Edward had no one that I know of. Katherine too was completely alone. Terrifying.
She strikes me as a fairly "typical" young girl who got thrust into a situation WAY beyond her skill sets. She was swimming in massively deep waters and she had near zero sophistication. Did she know what she was doing? Yes...but she had no way to fully comprehend the consequences. Tragic all the way around.
Katherine Howard in her early teenage years was a bit precocious girl. Agnes and any other family member should’ve done a better job in protecting her. She made a lot of mistakes as a queen by putting herself in a precarious situations. I don’t know if she had an affair with Culpepper. However, that letter made it seem that they were very close in my opinion. Katherine Howard wasn’t blameless, but I still felt bad for her. Thank you for the history lesson.😊
I am one of those who have been inclined to blame Howard's fate on the manipulation by the men in her life, particularly her family. But you are convinced that, if they had wanted another member of the Howard family to marry Henry, i wouldn't have been Katherine. I have to accept that position. However, her upbringing in her step-grandmothers household was certainly inadequate to say the least. As to her relationship with Culpepper, though I haven't been able to find an exact date when Henry first developed the leg ulcer that lasted until his death, it seems likely that it was already and issue before 1540. Earlier videos that you have produced confirmed that the ulcer smelled so bad that people could smell Henry was coming several rooms away. All that being considered, it explains to me why Katherine, possibly only 15 years old at the time would have fallen into a relationship with Culpepper, especially when her lady-in-waiting was facilitating it. One has to question the thinking of all the people surrounding Katherine who contributed to and shared her fate with her. That's my 2 cents.
I truly enjoyed learning more about this poor woman’s fate. She knew better. At the least she was taught right from wrong or otherwise she wouldn’t have been keeping things a secret. I can’t justify how she was killed but given her actions it makes sense for the time period
I think even if she knew it was not right, she thought she was in love. All those men took advantage of her and she had to marry a old, grumpy, ugly and sick man, who was also the king famous for killing his wives. Then comes this young and probably handsome man that gives her attention and what she might have considered to be love. She was stupid, but she was just a teen that didn't knew anything about true love without abuse, so I don't think she could be save, she was a victim of all the adults in her life
Yes, I think that's a real possibility too. Hmm, I wonder if Henry would have gone after her if she'd been serving Anne? Probably actually. He had an affair with Madge Shelton and she was Anne's (more distant) cousin too.
@@HistoryCalling most likely he would have. I wonder if she would been coached to reject the King's advances like Jane Seymour or told to give In to him like madge had done.
Life was very tough in those days, which leads me to think that although Katherine was pretty uneducated, her survival instincts must have kicked in before she married Henry. She may not have had any say in whether she married Henry, but she would have known that Henry was a tyrrant at this point. She displayed terrible judgement by surrounding herself with people from her unorthodox past, rather than learned people she must have been recommended. To have had anything to do with another man after her marriage, is tantamount to suicide. Her own cousin should have been the yardstick for her behaviour. Stupid? Most definitely. Unfaithful? Possibly. In a time where just a whisper could seal your fate, she was unbelieveably irresponsible. Did she deserve to die? Not really. Should she have been imprisoned (for own good) or sent to a nunnery? Would have been a better outcome for her. Thanks HC. She isn't my fave, I'm afraid. 😃
Yes, she wasn't the smartest dear love her and didn't have good advice. I agree that nothing she did merited death though. Nunneries wouldn't have been an option anymore by this point, but an annulment and being sent back to her family in disgrace would have been a kinder option. That just wasn't Henry though :-(
Do you think Katherine actually committed adultery? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
I don't think Katherine committed adultery, but that letter she sent to Culpepper was a really bad idea. It gave the
impression that she was fooling around while married to Henry.
I do believe she committed adultery. She seemed to be a person that didn't have any idea of self control and past patterns had shown her she could have her fun as long as she wasn't caught.
If she didn’t have a physical affair with Culpepper while married to Henry then it was certainly an emotional one from the tone of her letter and meeting him in secret while on the Royal progress. She certainly did NOT deserve to be executed though. Henry could have annulled the marriage due to a pre contract with Dereham and sent her packing. He was a brutal king IMO.
I think from her past she had the affair. Culpepper was more her age Henry was an old man. It’s tragic but by his age he could not satisfy her romantically or physically. Wasn’t he ill while married to her?
It totally appears she was committing adultery.
I love that brief shining moment of her and Anne of Cleves dancing and being young women together.
Yes, it is nice to remember that Katherine had her happy moments too.
Agree. ❤❤❤
Yes, that touched me almost to tears. Really, when you look at it, it was a tragedy for all concerned. Only Parr and Anne of Cleves came out well. And Henry . . . he had that awful accident and now we know what head injuries do to a person. I actually felt sorry for him - maybe the first time ever - when he cried like a baby when presented with the evidence. He must have known that, king of England or no, he was a fat, smelly, disgusting creature. How awfully pathetic. But Anne of Cleves dodged a bullet, or rather, an axe, although she might have done better as Queen than anyone except Catherine of Aragon.
I was picturing Anne of Cleves just, quietly whispering "thank you" at some point and then everything was fine lol. Poor Katherine, she was born in the wrong century to be a regular person, looking for love and validation without much common sense for the rules of the game she was unfortunately playing in.
Francis Dereham strikes me as not only a bad character, but also a dumb one😭 who the hell blackmails someone when the blackmail involves them💀
I know. He really wasn't terribly bright. Once Katherine became Queen he should have gone away and stayed gone.
So true! The colorful description of him in the video made me chuckle because I was thinking the same exact things right before she called him an idiot.
Seems like many characters in novels are inspired by these real-life fools.
@@HistoryCallingIt’s even more baffling when you think of the amount of places, pensions or fees available. He had the perfect opportunity to get some cushy job somewhere far from Court that would have left him comfortably off for life, and instead he chose to draw as much attention to his connection to Katherine as was humanly possible. Right in the court of her husband. The all powerful King who was executing his own cousins left, right and centre. Idiocy doesn’t even begin to describe it.
If Derham had kept quiet, I think Catherine would not have died. I am thinking, she may have just been banished after the Culpepper affair.
I always felt sorry for Katherine. Her youth, her flightiness, and foolishness, and her obvious lack of understanding what a precarious position she was in (particularly given what happened to her cousin) spelled certain doom. And, let us not forget the men around her who used and manipulated her, leading to her eventual downfall and death. Poor girl never had a chance.
Yes, she was certainly in over her head. While I don't think she was the total puppet that some have made her out to be, I also don't think she had the life experience to handle the situation she was thrust into and no one there to give her good advice.
💯 agree. Poor thing had no chance in that viper's nest of the Tudor court.
Yes, older and wiser people than her lost their heads there as well.
I agree. She's my favorite of Henry's wives
In defense of Katheryn, it does seem that she at least understood that Derham was trouble but he used her past to.blackmail his positing. During the rest of her stint as Queen, there are accounts of her making many presents of money and goods to him to try and keep him quiet. She was very upset with him at at least one meal(I like that was integrated into the Tudors), and probably more. She tried to keep a lid on him and her attempts would've probably worked with a differently tempered man. In the end, nothing she said to him mattered.
Fun fact: did you know, there was negotiations between Elizabeth and Ivan the terrible to get married ? Elizabeth shot down the idea because he reminded her of her father.
No, but it doesn't surprise me. Elizabeth would have been quite a catch in her time.
Henry and Ivan would have been friends.
That would be an interesting episode. "The Almost Marriages of Queen Elizabeth I".
Indeed. I don's think she really almost married anyone though. She was telling Leicester from the time that she was 8 that she was never getting hitched and I think she meant it, all the more so after the Thomas Seymour debacle.
@@HistoryCalling I remember one documentary where she was announced to be engaged after she had become queen. And not "married to England". Plus, it's an interesting title.
I’d say Anne Boleyn’s rise and fall was more tragic. She faced a trial that was a kangaroo court facing horrible, incestuous, untrue charges and left behind a child whose fate looked very shaky. That that daughter turned into England’s greatest monarch was an irony that Anne probably never dared to imagine.
Greatest Police State in Europe at the time was under Eliz I.
Anne B was arrogant and was flagrant in her taking of Queen Katherines place. Karma
@@glorialange6446YEP!! I feel the same way. Karma came back with a quickness on Ann.
I wonder if that ever occurred to her?
Why did Ann Boleyns daughter get the throne? Wasn't there other children? An older daughter and later children with later wives? I don't understand this
@@woodyssnake8562wow really?
This poor kid. Her fate to me really underlines what a monster Henry VIII was. I think she's so sympathetic because it's very easy to imagine what she'd be like if she lived now - a happy party girl-type who'd find a better way through life than what actually happened to her.
Yes, by this point he was a monster I think. I just can't get past what he did to her, especially given what a serial adulterer he was. The hypocrisy is sickening. Of course she behaved poorly, but what do these stupid older men (then and now) expect when they get together with these young girls? It's so obvious the girls aren't there out of true love. It's a recipe for disaster.
@@HistoryCalling I realize I have a modern bias, but I can't help but see an abusive relationship between a teenage girl and an old creep who ended up murdering her. It's so gross.
Yes, I think that would be our take on it for sure. I also think he had AB judicially murdered too.
@@HistoryCalling Haha, this reminds me of an anecdote about the German philosopher Immanuel Kant. When an elderly gentleman told him about his engagement to a young girl, that man said rather humbly, that of course, at his age, children were not to be hoped for in the intended marriage. To which Kant replied 'Maybe not to be hoped for, but very much feared!'.
As to the hypocrisy - do you have any idea what the conception of female lust at the time was? I mean, AFAIK, the middle ages were convinced of women being the lustful (and thus prone to sinning) sex whereas in Victorian times, the opposite was thought to be true. So - when did it change? My point is: The hypocrisy would be a little less obvious, if men thought that women didn't have fun in bed anyway, so why shouldn't they be subject (pun intended) to any man no matter whether attractive or not.
At least fat old Henry got his in the end. He had a long, draw out, painful dying that you would not wish on your worst enemy.
"Henry was reduced to tears"
You know, I would have placed money on a bet that King Henry VIII didn't even know how to cry for his wives.
Bear in mind he was really crying for himself in this instance. I don't think he cried over KH or AB (maybe JS though).
That I would see him doing.
As to Katherine committing adultery, I would probably fall on the side that says yes. Only for the Culpepper affair. Even if they didn't have "relations" at that point, they really painted a picture of that being an intended event.
I will maintain, however, that her pre-marriage "indiscretions" shouldn't have been taken into account. I realize that's because of my much more modern take on a woman's right to dally as much as the menfolk, but I'll stubbornly stick to it :)
Yes, I don't think they should have counted either. It wasn't even a crime at the time, just heavily, heavily frowned upon. Bear in mind some of her dalliances were probably with Henry himself. He was such a hypocrite.
He was known for fits of what was then called “melancholy”. So certainly he did plenty of crying. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t weeping only for himself, though.
I’m sure he really did cry over her death. But probably because he felt he had been let down. Which he had, but it’s a pity he couldn’t have shown mercy to such a young woman. Perhaps he thought it would be perceived as weakness? Shocking to us today.
I appreciate that you never sugarcoat your thoughts and opinions on these things. It's a rare thing in some spaces now, but it really gives an excellent perspective i may not have seen before. Thank you!
You're very welcome. It's a tricky line to toe sometimes, but I don't want to lie to people and I'm a believer in seeing history for what it really was and not what we want it to have been.
I agree. When history is whitewashed or only the positive aspects are promoted and none of the unpleasant and “messy” bits are ever mentioned we are doing no favors to the students and readers who are learning this material. When the true facts are revealed these people feel like they’ve been duped and no longer trust the history teachers and professors, the historians and the authors of histories and biographies which is so unfortunate. A good knowledge of history is important if we are to function as knowledgeable citizens who can make informed decisions about present issues and future ones by understanding the past.
I have a soft spot for her even if my first impression of her life was that she was very reckless and immature. I think is so sad that she never have someone to take care of her and teach her better about life in general in those times and then, the terrible bad luck of caught the eye of Henry VIII. If he wasn't attracted to her, she would have been a random lady in waiting and with a very random marriage and a relatively easy life for the times. Her story just makes me sad.
Much more interesting than any dramatization on Netflix or the like. Thank you!
Thank you very much :-)
I also like the dramatisations, like The Tudors.
I love the description "an idiot who couldn't keep his trap shut"😂
It about sums him up 😊
@HistoryCalling it so does! Thank you so much for the extraordinary effort you put into these videos. I binge watch them. I hope you consider going into other Royal families in time...Scandinavians, Hanover, etc... warmest regards from Australia.
I do think it plausible for a girl with as little life experience as she had, whose main dealings with men had been them being so completely taken with her (petulant & jealous Dereham, incapable of getting over her; lovestruck Henry, ignoring her complete lack of qualifications for queenhood and showering her in gifts and affection; Culpepper, risking life & limb just to be alone with her), to believe somehow that even if things came to light, she could avoid the axe, at the very least. I can also only imagine the desperation of a teenager experiencing the overwhelming feelings of young “love,” yet forced into a marriage with a foul-smelling, piggish middle-aged man old enough to be her grandfather. Her judgment was certainly clouded, but I have so much sympathy for her and feel she was failed by every guardian figure in her life. Cultural & moral differences of her time period aside, it’s hard not to view her and the tragedy of her life through a modern lens.
I absolutely agree that she is a total tragedy and not well cared for by all those in her life who should have been teaching and nurturing her. Perhaps she did have a feeling of invincibility, that she'd be able to get out of any trouble she got into. We'll never know :-(
❤ I'm enjoying this even more on second viewing, HC. You mention "nuance" at one point and I think that's especially important as we have to deal with the blatant misogyny of Katherine's time (not that it's still not an issue). Katherine may not have been an "innocent" victim, but she was indeed a victim of the brutality of Henry and his sycophants. I'm glad you got around to a full biography of Katherine. Thanks for this, HC. Have a good week. 🙏🏼
Thanks Stephen. Yes, I can't believe I didn't already have a bio of her. They're generally tough to do for people who lived to be a respectable age because it takes such a long time to get through their lives, but for someone who died as young as KH I really should have gotten to her before now. Yes, nuance when looking at Katherine's life is indeed important. Have a lovely week too :-)
Great video, thank you. I can't believe she'd have been crazy enough to sleep with Culpepper knowing what happened to her cousin who didn't even do anything.
It is hard to believe I grant you, but even if she didn't do it, it seems like things were heading that way.
Or, you know - she was coerced.
Great video! I think Katherine was so poorly brought up that it's hard to imagine her behaving in any other way than she did as a young adult. Marrying Henry was never going to end well for her, especially since it's more than a little apparent that she had even less intelligence than virtue. No, she didn't deserve her ultimate fate, but it would be to the astonishment of all if Henry _didn't_ have her executed. A sad story all around, and one that was probably recounted as a cautionary tale for quite some time.
Edited to add: Yes, I think she had adultery. It takes quite a lot of willpower to roll around in the sheets and then actually stop because you just remembered you're married to a King who would easily have you executed. I don't think Katherine had that kind of willpower.
Yes, she never really had a chance when you look at her background. If her family had been wiser they'd have come clean to Henry about her right away, but I think everyone was just a bit dazzled by the opportunity to have another Queen in the family.
It helps to remember that Katherine might not have known the full details about what had happened to Anne. She would have been a child at the time of Anne’s death, so unless someone told her the entire story, she might not have known.
Anne of Cleaves ,was an extremely intelligent woman,Henry him self recognised what an extraordinary women she was and enjoyed cards and conversations with her ,she outlived Henry and was much loved by Elisabeth.
Katherine deserved better.
You're really one of my favorite YT channels HC 😊
Thank you so much and yes, Katherine did deserve far better than she got.
Watching this again and marveling at your natural inclination to see all sides, plus going the extra 10 miles on research. Very well done. Thank you.
What I find odd is Jane Boleyn assisting Katherine to meet with Culpepper. Jane knew better than anyone there how easily Henry could have a queen killed for any hint of adultery, even if she was innocent. So, did Katherine threaten her into helping with the Culpepper meetings?
No one has ever been able to satisfactorily explain what on earth Jane Boleyn was thinking because as you say, her actions just make no sense. My best guess is that she was an idiot.
@@HistoryCalling Gareth Russell thinks she was a natural conspirator, and not very good at it, sadly for herself and Katherine.
That take on Lady Jane Boleyn as an incompetent conspirator was also that of Hilary Mantel’s Thomas Cromwell.
NEW HISTORY CALLING ITS GONNA BE A GOOD DAY
Thanks Saoirse. I certainly hope so :-)
I struggle from today’s perspective to understand how Katherine knew everything that happened to her cousins and Henry’s other wives that she’d act so foolishly.
Was she sheltered from the gossip and was truly naive to the risk?! I find this hard to believe.
To be honest, I really think it's a case of carrying one's brains below the waist. Normally attributed to men, but in this case, it seems to have been different. I suppose she just liked men, had learnt she could get away with acting upon it and when the first thrill of being queen had worn off realized what her life as Henry's wife would be like in this regard (smelly, disgusting and certainly not too pleasing) and so decided to do what men did (having something cute on the side). Idiotic, of course, but feasible.
I think she knew about Mary and Anne but was just very foolhardy and didn't think she'd get caught. She was much younger and to be blunt, nowhere near as clever as AB in particular (and even AB ended up dead at Henry's hands).
I'm not surprised given how her upbringing went. She got caught kissing a secretary and was only scolded. Then she was the one who stole and copied the key to the girls' room. She was used to being popular and pretty, she was still young and not thinking much about consequences, and she'd never expected to be queen nor prepared for that level of scrutiny. Even Anne, who was extremely intelligent, made comments that were later used against her.
I agree: it seems unreasonable to acquit Katherine of all responsibility in her relationship with Culpepper. Regardless of her largely unsupervised childhood, she had become an adult and had every reason to know her husband was not a forgiving man at the *best* of times.
Yes, I don't think it's right to act as though as though she had the mental age of a 10 year old. She was old enough at that stage to know better and the lengths she went to to hide her association with Culpepper indicate that she knew she was playing with fire.
She was a child.
@@teribelyea9340 21?
When I was 19 I thought the world would end if I couldn't go out to the clubs or pubs on a Friday night and I thought it was a great idea to get a tattoo and a piercing in the middle of my chin (20+ years later, still has a scar and I regret I've regretted the tattoo for years) and I was smart and at uni, unlike her. Katherine was an airhead child. Yes, she knew it was wrong but I don't think she fully grasped the full implications of her actions even with the other Queens. When you're that age you're invincible. You think "that's never going to happen to me".
@@Dee-mj3pu I'm in my early 40s and yes, 21 is a child. Absolutely clueless. I was still going around in outrageous clothing (OK so that's only toned down a bit) and at uni and partying all the time.
45 minutes?!? I m in heaven! ❤❤❤❤❤
Why thank you :-)
As someone who went to a boarding school, I can attest that the girls do have a kind of freedom normally not enjoyed by parental scrutiny. Mine was an American school in the UK. Basically it was nuts.
I've always found people's boarding school stories really interesting. I didn't go to one myself, so it's something I've never experienced and never will and I'm just always fascinated to hear what it was like. Why was yours nuts for instance?
@@HistoryCalling haha...we had young teachers who had no trouble "dating" some of us students. Never mind the drinking, house parties at the homes of absent parents of the few kids who were day students, kids who trekked to amsterdam not for the museums, a headmaster that was a fascist, but never really got any goods on us. It was a small school and we were feral. Though once some local comprehensive girls school kicked our butts while we were out hanging. English girls are the come to Jesus of absolute meanness.
Katherine Howard is my second favourite wife!! Can’t wait to listen to this! Thanks for the video ❤
Ah, now that begs the question; who's your favourite?
@@HistoryCallingAnne Boleyn who’s your favourite!?
Favourite to learn about is Anne B. Favourite to hang out with would probably be Catherine Parr.
@@HistoryCalling Anne of Cleves here. Certainly also not terribly well educated, but innately cleverer, and certainly some years older. But Katherine H was for sure not the brightest bulb in the chandelier...
I'm a Jane Seymour fan. I think she was good at controlling Henry's emotions and being the quiet, unassuming power behind the throne. I do have a soft spot for Katherine Howard. But I think Anne of Cleaves ultimately won and came off the best of all the wives.
Thank you for highlighting Garreth Russell frequently in your video as his book 'Young and Damned and Fair' is in my opinion a must read - if you haven't read his recent book about Hampton Court Palace, that is a must read too :)
No problem. It's a good book and it was valuable to me in my research for this video, so I wanted to give credit where credit is due.
That title sounds Faulkneresque.
I always thought Henry's wives would not interest me. You have completely changed my mind. Thankyou.
Ah, once you get sucked into their stories there's no turning back ☺️
I have often wondered what exactly could compel a person to bless the king right before their execution. I understand that it was custom, and if one is guilty, fine. But Anne Boleyn did this also, and most historians agree that she was innocent of the charges against her. That would seem a hard pill to swallow. Although I guess in Anne's case, she may well have been thinking about the daughter she was leaving behind unprotected.
It was the custom as you say and just so expected and accepted that one wouldn't really have thought of doing otherwise. People wanted to make a 'good' death and not risk committing a fresh sin right at the last moment.
Well, Anne Boleyns case, she did it to try and protect Princess Elizabeth, I'd wager. And the rest of her family that he hadn't already executed.
In Katherines case I assume that it was because she knew she was guilty of cheating with Culpepper, and she truly was sorry. Furthermore, It occurred to me, perhaps, for both women, there could have been some hope in their hearts that Henry would not go through with the executions and thought that those praises of adoration would save not only their lives, but their positions?
I believe she was trying to protect her daughter Elizabeth and her remaining Boleyn relatives
Anne blessed the King before her execution because she was probably terrified her daughter would be ostracized, or even executed/made to 'disappear' by Henry. You have to remember in those days people were extremely religious, and really believed in heaven/hell and the wrath of God, so you forgave everybody before your execution, hoping that you would be looked upon favourably to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We view things too much from modern perspectives. And life was not long in those days; most people were lucky to live to the age of 40, so women got married early to have children, and betrothed at birth sometimes. This was not child abuse as we define that term in Western society - I've had friends from other countries who were betrothed and married at an early age.
I really wish we knew more about her😭 it’s not that weird that we don’t, she was, as you said, a minor member of the Howard family, and during her queenship I suppose people were more concerned with other matters, but still😭 it’s the history enthusiast (and Historian’s) nightmare
Same here. Of course it's not just her. We actually know surprisingly little about Jane Seymour and even Anne of Cleves as well.
Hi friend. I was extra history’s video series on wu Zetian.
@@DarthDread-oh2neHi. That seems interesting! She’s an interesting character, albeit ruthless as heck!
I'm not trying to shame Catherine Howard because she's my favorite of the 6 wives if only because she was so young and never did anyone harm [unlike her cousin Anne] and did not have proper guidance and should not have been executed, but, WOW, she was a piece of work! Even in today's liberated world, she would be considered a hussy. What was she then in 16th century England? I shudder to think.
Thanks for doing such a great job on all of your video’s, replying to so many comments and truly caring about your viewers. This makes such a difference. So much better than some channels where everyone is blatantly ignored. Hugz, Tree
You're very welcome. I try to get through the first 24 hours' worth of comments on a new video (though that is sometimes not possible if there are 100s and 100s of them). I wish I could do more, but I'd never be able to make new videos if I did :-)
Completely agree with you on this! History Calling is the best on TH-cam ❤❤
What a sad story. Thank you for sharing all the unhappy details. I never realized how much documentation there actually was about her life. I remember Emily Blunt giving a very impressive performance as Katherine in one of the BBC productions, but that script called for Katherine to be shameless, even defiant in her affair with Culpepper. I don't know if it mattered to the king whether Katherine actually slept with Culpepper or just displayed a horrible lack of discretion in her flirtation with him, because all the revelations about her earlier relationships made this marriage look like a such a disastrous mistake.
The documents from after her arrest are really the goldmine here. Without them we'd know almost nothing about her before she arrived at court in late 1540.
I suspect the wound to his ego that his 'rose without a thorn' was running after a younger, fitter and less putrid man was even flirting with someone else would probably have been enough, tyrant that he was. Dereham was pretty brutally executed for not really having done anything illegal, just bruising to the King's ego
While I agree with you that Katherine Howard was not a brainless dupe of the men (other than her husband) with whom she had physical and/or emotional relationships with I personally think that she was also behaving like a typical teen. (Yes, I do know that the concept of being a teenager wasn’t something that was a part of Tudor/Renaissance society.) I think back on my own teenage years and am appalled by how reckless and willful I could be on occasion. Also, most teens don’t often think ahead about the consequences, including the possible unintended ones, that their words and actions might have on themselves and others.
I feel sorry for Katherine because she really didn’t have a responsible adult in her life to guide her, teach her the do’s and don’ts of Tudor society/court and just give her the adult attention, instruction and support that she so desperately needed! Her dad basically abandoned her; her mother died; and her step-grandmother was a careless guardian. So, while Katherine wasn’t forced into any of her “illicit” relationships and made unfortunate decisions regarding those relationships I do think that her story would have been very different if the adults responsible for her wellbeing had actually done their job and not have left her to her own devices.
PS. I have never understood why Jane Rochford behaved the way she did towards Katherine. Was she living vicariously through Katherine? She surely knew what a dangerous situation she and Katherine were in because her own husband had been executed by Henry VIII for alleged adultery and incest. Was she mentally ill? Did she enjoy “being at the top” at court so much that she became reckless which then blinded her to the very real and present danger that was part of being a member of Henry’s court? Would you recommend a good biography about her? I’ve already read Gareth Russell’s marvelous biography on Katherine. (My apologies for the long post!)
She was 14.... 🧐
Regardless of how she behaved it doesn’t change the fact that she was 13 when the sexual abuse started. She was abused by men who were much older than her. Men who should’ve known better, but had no morals and thought it was completely okay to take advantage of a naive and impressionable teenager.
I really enjoy your videos. Thank you for all the work you put into this for us!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SUCH A GENEROUS DONATION TO THE CHANNEL. I'm so glad you're enjoying the videos. More Tudor bios still to come!
A child given in sacrifice to a sociopathic king, so her uncle could have even more power
It certainly wasn't a good match, that's for sure. Poor Katherine :-(
What a childish remark
@ryanborder189 How very self-aware if you. Your comment truly is immature and inane
I disagree that this comment is wrong. Many women were seen as property/possessions and in order for men to enhance within court, their women were used unscrupulously!
I do not believe she was sacrificed to Henry at all. I suspect Uncle Norfolk was operating in “oh s#!t mode” through this whole sad situation.
If Uncle Norfolk was going to throw another niece into Henry’s path intentionally she would have been specifically educated to be another Jane Seymour. He knew all too well what happened to his nieces when they displeased Henry and wouldn’t have risked a girl he hadn’t had direct control over for some time before hand to be certain of her behavior and obedience.
Another wonderful video, as always. And, as always, beautiful images and video to go along with it. I enjoy the fact that you zhow them for long enough for people to take in all the detail and i must confess that i sort of play a "where's Waldo" with your images, looking for your watermark and writing on each image, declaring it was you who took the pictures! I love the fact that you claim your work to protect it from people who would steal it and that your wateemark and other writing are discrete enough to not distract from the images. It took me a bit to see the tiny letters in the french hoods or in the necklines of the clothes.
Loved it, as usual.
I think the exact same thing about the watermarks. I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers Where's Waldo (Wally in the UK). Honestly I'd rather not have to go to those lengths of course as it takes so long to watermark everything, but it's all I can do unfortunately :-( I do try to place them in somewhat unobtrusive places (like the hoods and necklines).
Your voice is so peaceful to me 😊 that’s half of why I watch these videos. I love history and a soothing voice 🙏🏼
I am always moved by the biography of Katherine Howard. Thank you. I liked that you presented a different viewpoint on the validity of the victimization theory. I will have to ponder that a bit more before I make my own conclusion 😀
Thank you. Yes, you may well disagree with me of course (which is totally fine), but I don't think she was quite as weak and helpless as she is often portrayed.
I use to think of Katherine as a total victim but The fact that Katherine choose to break off her relationships with Manox & Dareham tells me that she knew what she was doing & was not groomed or abused. Perhaps just too young, Didn’t have enough moral guidance & gravitated to the wrong type of men. Since these two seem to have been jerks. As for Culpeper, I think she wholeheartedly pursued this relationship & was in denial as to the consequences. As Queen, how could she not realize how she was held accountable to a higher standard? She obviously did not learn from what happened to her cousin Anne Boleyn. Such a tragic end to such a young person
Yes, I agree that by the time she was Queen she was really old enough to know better, especially given her Boleyn ties.
I really see her as an abused child. When that is what she was exposed to, it is difficult to make the right choices as an adult. So I still think she's the victim. She was groomed as a young child. You'd hope she would have been smart enough to not fall to Boyeln's fate and made better decisions, but I think from modern eyes, the abuse she suffered when she was too young to consent likely impacted her ability to make reasonable decisions.
It is a mercy when grooming/abuse victims manage to leave their abusers, and in no way does that choice mean they therefore "knew what they were doing" and weren't groomed or abused. Even more so when we're talking about somebody who'd barely hit puberty when the 'relationship' started. Tudor society wasn't enlightened enough to understand that, ours ought to be
Agree and her family , although not supportive , would have made her aware of cousin Anne Boleyn. How many chances does a family need ?, 2 queens and both lost their lives .Anne was set up but the other foolish
Could you do a video on Margaret Pole? I find her story sad but fascinating.
She's on my list. Bio videos are just a lot tougher to do for people who lived a long life as they take so long to research and put together. Even Katherine (a girl who barely made 20) still took 45 minutes to get through.
@HistoryCalling no rush at all. Always appreciate your videos! Gives me something to look forward to.
Yes, me too!!!😊
I also look forward to your eventual video about Margaret. It is, indeed, a tall order...but I know that your research and presentation will be impeccable.
She's been covered in historical fiction, but history lovers yearn for the facts as only you present them. Thanks for what you do!
This is a really good history video and it was explained very well , I learned a lot, I've been learning a lot about history lately from TH-cam, and I subscribed to this channel because you make it very interesting when you explain everything.😊❤❤❤❤
Thanks, HC! A great summary.
You're welcome. I really should have already had a bio on her before now. It was a bit of an oversight. I have a few others coming too actually to plug some of the other gaps on my channel.
@@HistoryCalling It's me again, on another account. I just started Starkey's "Six Wives." His introduction is SO self-congratulatory, but he does such good work, I can forgive him that. lol
That's a very good book though, for an intro. to all six wives and his writing style is generally very readable, so do stick with it. I just picked up his Virtuous Prince this afternoon to check something and had a similar response to the first few pages, but the research will be solid I'm sure.
@@HistoryCallingStarkey sort of prides himself on being a prickly character. Seems he enjoys being perceived as a contrarian. He’s the type who would definitely be on Fox News a lot if he was American, if you know what I mean…
Superb as always HC, Katherine knew right from wrong apart from being nieve at times as young people tend to be, she did commit adultery, In her defence she was let down by some of the people she trusted, she certainly did not deserve her fate we all make mistakes she paid the full price for hers, thank you as always HC. 👍☺️
Thanks Simon. Yes, whatever her faults they weren't worthy of the death sentence. Henry was a serial adulterer, abusive parent and a double wife killer and he didn't get executed after all.
Catherine's story was so sad, culpeper and dereham definitely took advantage of her, as did henry viii
Yes, it's not gonna be a video with a happy ending unfortunately, but she did have some good times along the way too.
I would say Jane Seymour is the most tragic. She was the only wife to give Henry a proper heir. She then died immediately afterward.
Lovely video ! Talking about if Catherine should have known better and should be treated the same way we treated Mary Tudor and her relationship with Charles Brandon, I half-agree. Yes, the two women were of the same age and had long passed the age of adolescence to make rational decisions and suffer the consequences. But one was a well-educated princess that had the time to experience adulthood and deal with important charges (that she was well-trained for since her birth), the other one was a neglected kid poorly watched over and educated that wasn't prepared to manage a queen's household (as you said)... I think the only way of changing if one should be more respected for her decisions than the other should depend on their level of maturity and the only way of knowing if Mary was more mature than Catherine would be to meet the ladies in person (which is not possible)... Moreover, I think we praise Mary Tudor for a second marriage because we love historic lovematches (especially when they happen on a person who, by birth, was forced to marry with questionning it) but we must also recognize that Mary's decision was a little bit rash: she knew she'd angered her brother in a way that would probably make her life miserable forever (perhaps she brushed it off) and the only reason why she would have wanted to rush her union with someone of her choosing would have been because she was more terrified of getting married to some crowned stranger (looks like she was genuinely traumatised by Louis XII of France) and genuinely believe she would gain independance and freedom from Brandon than from anyone else...
Well done! Thanks, HC.
You're very welcome ☺️
I’ve recently discovered your channel and am loving it! But, truth be told, you could read the phone book out loud and I’d tune in just to listen to your delicious accent. 😊
The biggest culprits of the whole situation are those - like the step-grandmother - who let a girl be put in situations ripe for abuse while failing to educate her. A lack of means for a high-class upbringing is a major hindrance, but not an excuse.
The Duke of Norfolk and his wife probably didn't lack for means, so really, really not an excuse.
Greeting from Ohio. Thank you so much for all your hard work! I enjoy listening to your videos and look forward to more entertaining lessons in history.
Thank you so much for this video!
I truly admire how you point out that we shouldn't apply our modern standards and morals to earlier periods of human history, no matter what our views on certain aspects of life are nowadays.
To the subject of today's video, on the one hand I feel sorry for her, she was somewhat neglected by people in charge of her even by the standards of the period, so it's sad to see that these mistakes were part of her downfall, but on the other hand she made the very same mistake by being rather publicly involved in relationships with men again and again. While I doubt she could have avoided her fate, what IF she had just avoided Culpeper!
Yes, I feel very sorry for her too. While I think she bears some responsibility for her fate, she was still very young, frankly not terribly bright it would seem, not well educated in the ways of court and the world and certainly not deserving of her ultimate fate. As for what would have happened if Culpepper hadn't been in the picture, it's hard to say. She still had the problematic Dereham to deal with and she might have fond other suitors along the way.
very interesting that Henry initiated the match - I always thought the Howards pushed the idea - as you say they should have stopped it then before the girl's history almost cost the Duke his head - too bad the Howards weren't very bright - ty HC
I suppose the Howards were so burnt by what happened to AB it might not have occurred to them to attempt to provide another Queen, esp. so soon after the Cleves' marriage.
@@HistoryCalling - Henry showed some interest and they hoped he'd never find out about her past I guess - the old Duke spent a few years in the Tower over it
It was incredibly short sighted. These sorts of things always come out. Far too many people knew what she'd got up to at the Dowager Duchess's for it to ever stay hidden.
@@HistoryCalling I don't understand how the king could not have known anything about her past if everyone else knew. Did he even hear rumours and dismiss them? It must have been the case that no one really cared about the situation (or the king himself) enough to give old Henry a "heads up", and were content to watch the show unfold. It is apparent that noone cared enough about Katherine to intervene on her behalf before it was too late. How sad.
@@maryannpshock955 The king was in a bit of a bubble. There were probably reasons that this tittle tattle might not have reached him. Maybe it was thought that the doings of a minor member of the Howard family were not important enough to share with him. Maybe even the Duke didn't really know the extent of Katherine's compromising behavior.
The source of all of the devastation and death during this time of Tudor history can only be leveled at one person :: KingHenryVIII. Everyone else is collateral damage. It was Henry’s impulsivity and poor judgment that caused him to marry a girl so much younger than him, and yet, when anything bad happens in his life, somebody must be blamed and killed, whether it be Cromwell. Anne B, or Catherine Howard.
Yes, Henry was terrible at taking responsibility for his own messes and also at being told her couldn't have something (like an annulment). There always had to be a scapegoat.
I agree with you HC. I don't and never have believed that Katherine was abused or groomed. She was an instigator and fully complicit in her actions. That said, I don't think in any way that she deserved her terrible fate. Oh that she'd never married the despicable Henry Vlll. Poor girl.
Yes, she had such a short and tragic life. Really all she seems to have wanted was to have a nice time and for the others around her to enjoy themselves too. Hardly worthy of a death sentence :-(
Thank you😊 another great video
I think she probably did commit adultery with Culpepper, given neither she nor he had a reputation for reigning in their desires, and given Jane Boleyn was arranging secret meetings between them.
Her story always strikes me as terribly sad. She was no schemer like Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour, both of whom carefully orchestrated their seduction of Henry. She was no political animal like Katherine of Aragon or Anne of Cleves, one of whom used her political influence to cling on for years and the other of whom had just enough influence to arrange her own safety while also being happy to surrender to comfortable defeat. And she didn’t have the education and intelligence of Katherine Parr, who was the only one of Henry’s wives to walk herself into a death warrant and then talk her way out of it, and who may have been in love with another man while Henry courted and wed her, but who gave no sign of it until Henry was dead.
I think Katherine Howard was smarter and less shallow than most people give her credit for given what few records we have from her brief time as Queen, but she was a very ordinary girl who was thrust to the forefront of a particularly vicious court, she had let her heart rule her head from her early days, and she soon got in well over her head, with her family’s enemies taking full advantage of that. She was exploited by people who should have protected her. She was thrown into a position she was utterly unsuited for but couldn’t say no to. She had a past she couldn’t cover up. She fell in love and couldn’t resist.
She seems far more wronged than wrong.
Yes, it's a pity she didn't play the long game as Catherine Parr did and wait for Henry to die before going after the man she really wanted. She still would have only been in her mid 20s.
That is well said, especially about her being an ordinary girl, which is what Gareth Russell thinks too, and why he thinks the story of her fall is so particularly pitiful and sad.
To say that Catherine Howard was "not entirely blameless" is a rather large understatement. She was guilty of virtually all of the charges that were brought against her. A real mitigating factor was her age and even that may be a stretch. Fidelity and paternity were everything to a monarch of that era. They didn't have testing back then. The king had to be able to trust his wife. The integrity of the bloodline depended on it.
Thanks HC ♥👑♥
Her life with the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, oh my! 😇
I've been watching a lot of videos in the last 4 days about the Queens of King Henry the 8th , and then losing their heads , and I thought, " what would it feel like to just be laying there with your head on the block" and Ibwonder "what would I think about".....this, is what I would think...
Because I'm a Christian, I would focus my mind on seeing Jesus and being in heaven and being with God in a happy wonderful beautiful place , because the way things were back in those days, heaven would definitely have to be so much better in so many ways , than how life was for people back then , and that is honestly what I would think before my head got chopped off.🌟👑
Oh! A longer video! It’s probably gonna be a somber one, though, but thanks :)
Yes, it suddenly dawned on me that I'd never done a biography of Katherine and I thought that was a bit of an oversight. She had some happy times too, so it's not all doom and gloom.
@@HistoryCalling yes! her early queenship was actually good, she was doing a good job!
Hello HC. I told this guy you could sing my life as A highway.
Afraid I can't hold a tune :-)
Kathryn's family and associates did not throw her under the bus - they threw her under an entire FLEET of buses. What she was the most guilty of is appallingly poor judgment. While yes, some examples from the sources indicate she was old enough to know right from wrong, there is an old Southern saying that covers her - "Old enough to know better, too young to resist." It is getting easier to see that she was not "groomed" as we think of it today, but both Henry Mannox and Francis Dereham did take advantage of Kathryn's naivete and poor judgment.
I think Kathryn did not take the "out" that she was precontracted to Dereham; that would have meant a sharp drop in station, status and wealth, and having a jealous, loud mouthed idiot in charge of her life, as she would have been considered Dereham's "property" as his wife.
I am surprised the Howards did not have Francis Dereham silenced. It would not have been at all out of character for Thomas Howard to have somehow arranged an "accident." It is also surprising that Henry Mannox did not lose his head.
Yes, she was very poorly cared for and advised. The dowager duchess obviously shouldn't have had the charge of all those young ladies. She wasn't up to the job of looking after them properly. I don't think Katherine even realised that a marriage to Dereham might have been her 'out'. Annoying as he was, better to be alive and married to him than executed. Mannox was very lucky. I'm amazed he lived to tell the tale as well.
@@HistoryCalling Do you think Henry would have spared her if she could have proved pre-contract? My own opinion is that he would have found some other means of judicially murdering her. Her presence was too painful for him to tolerate, I think.
Thanks for the video
Thanks Lynda. Enjoy and let me know if you think she committed adultery. :-)
The most tragic was henrys first wife Katherine. To be set aside as old and not really married, after 19 years is very sad and any man who does that is horrible. K H knew what H8 was like and knew his propensity for ridding himself of wives. She also knew H8 was married and she replaced his wife Anne of Cleves. She was young but more than that she was stupid.
Definitely. That was cruel and slow torture
How much agency did an infatuated, man-crazy teen such as KH have to exercise against the impregnable authority of an infatuated, much-married, grotesque, middle-aged KH8?
I'm halfway through her biography by Josephine Wilkinson, I feel truly sorry for her. It felt like she really didn't have a say in her own life
I haven't read all of that one, but Russell's one is pretty good. I did a review of it over on Patreon this week actually.
I've got that one on my bookshelf to read afterwards funnily enough, the Wilkinson one is very easy to read and calls quite a lot on Charles de Marillac for the information
Not a bad primary source at all. I use him too. :-)
One difference between Mary Tudor, Henry's sister who remarried Charles Brandon, and Katherine Howard is their upbringing and education. Mary, being a daughter of a king and sister to another would have been well-educated and had responsible governesses who took better care of her, while Katherine was poorly educated and received very poor supervision and parenting from her step-grandmother. Also difference in personality can have been a factor. Former queen of France Mary may have had a bolder personality to go after what she wanted and the confidence and courage to risk her brother's wrath to do it.
I wonder about Jane Rochford. Considering she was the wife of George Boleyn she would have known what happened to him and Anne. Why didn't she prevent Katherine Howard and Culpepper from being together? It seems like another failure of older figures to protect an inexperienced and foolish young queen.
Indeed. And I also think the nature of the respective risks Mary and Katherine took in itself betrays a difference in smarts. Mary's was large, but not so ludicrous on its merits - and indeed it did pay off for her in the end, albeit it at great financial cost, in a way Katherine's simply never could've. I can easily place myself in Mary's shoes and see what logic might've led her to the decision, but Katherine on the other hand... even allowing for the laxity in her upbringing, that was an absolutely insane risk to take
I would argue that a big part of the difference between Katherine Howard and Mary Tudor Brandon. Is that when Mary married Charles- is that she had to be pursuing the marriage, how easy would it have been for her to say no, to say my brother the king will be furious with both us. By Marrying Charles she was taking a risk. Because she wanted him.
Where as Katherine- how could she say no. He was the king. We see the same thing with Catherine Parr. They both were not invested in a marriage with Henry. Parr because she was already in love; Howard seemingly less averse to the match, but far too youthful in spirit, at least, to be queen.
It is not a matter of age. It is a matter of position and strength to be able to say No to Henry the 8th.
Let's just say I think you're going to find next week's video extra interesting :-)
Mary Tudor also had had the benefit of a good upbringing in the royal household, and the assurance of her birthright position as the daughter and sister of kings. Katherine did not have the same advantages, either of birth or education/ upbringing, so she was out of her depth pretty much her entire life. The only thing that might have saved her life would have been becoming pregnant immediately and giving birth to a healthy son 9 months after the wedding, although not if the baby’s paternity was called into question.
As to weather Catherine new as much as Henry's sister Mary did, Mary was brought up in the politics of royalty. So she knew a lot more about how things should go. Catherine seems to have been brought up without the knowledge that she needed to be queen or even a mistress of the king. My opinion
I do believe she committed adultery, especially as it was considered, at the time, that consummation, was the most important aspect of being married. The ceremony was secondary. I'm sure she knew just what she was doing. She had seen, or heard, of all that had been happening in the court. While she may have been Queen, she was still very young and Henry was a very fat man who may have been quite repugnant to her, especially in the marital bed. When I look at history, I try to leave all of my 20th & 21st Century attitudes out of it.
I do find it interesting that one of your longest videos goes to Henry's wife who had the shortest life and tenure. 😊
I know. I didn't mean for it to get this long and to be honest I thought I'd be able to cover such a short life in a briefer video too, but darn it, there's just so much to unpack with Katherine ☺ Thank goodness I didn't have to explain her date of birth and portraiture as well, or it would have gone on even longer. At least I already have videos on those topics.
@@HistoryCalling It was a very good video. Easily as good as any you've done.
Catherine must have been charismatic.
Yes, I think she must have had certain je ne sais quoi too.
I agree with others that Mary Tudor was cut from different cloth than KH. Mary was daughter and sister of kings, and would have had a very different upbringing than KH. She would certainly have had a better idea of actions and consequences for royal ladies, and it strikes me Mary was brighter than her sister-in-law. Katherine may well have had not as much idea of how thin the ice she was skating on; but as you say, in the Culpeper situation, she DID know what she was doing was wrong. And she chose to do it anyway - she's not a blameless victim here.
On a tangential point, I find it interesting that it was her situation that introduced Royal Assent to bills not having to be provided by the monarch in person -- but nearly always these days by commission appointed for the task. Henry couldn't face assenting to the Bill of Attainder, so a commission did it for him. Anne Boleyn was condemned by a legal trial (rigged though it was) so the King didn't actually have to pronounce the death sentence. Then again, he would have had to sign the death warrant, so I'm not clear why he got so picky in KH's case
I wonder if Henry didn't want a trial because in this case, he knew he'd been cuckolded (or heavily suspected it) and didn't want to be embarrassed? In Anne's case, he knew she'd been faithful and he knew that everyone else knew it too.
@@HistoryCalling If memory serves, George Boleyn read testimony at his trial that Henry was impotent. Henry may not have expected that perhaps, and may not have cared to repeat the experience, with the added revelation that he'd probably been cuckolded.
This was a very comprehensive history of Catherine Howard and I thank you for your thorough research. I was always of the opinion that CH was a reckless and stupid girl, who plotted to conceive a child with Culpepper because the King was unable to perform. But having listened to your complete and detailed outline, I feel rather more sympathetic toward her.
I've always wondered what in heaven she could have been about, if not Treason with Culpepper and assumed he was as idiotic, undisciplined and reckless as she. But I wonder, could she have been contemplating release from the marriage, such as she'd seen with the most recent of Henry's other wives, Anne of Cleves? Anne had been their honored guest at Christmas, and it may have presented Catherine with a plan, one that would have given her status, income and perhaps the man of her dreams. If she could outlive Henry, or be rejected by him, and go quietly, as Anne had, she could have Culpepper. This could have been what they were doing closeted up together - hatching this plan. Clearly they were romantically involved, which itself would have been treason. But now I don't think she was foolish enough to try to conceive with him. I think perhaps she was coping with her marriage to a sickly, overweight, elderly man who left her too often to herself, but never free.
Perhaps she sought Culpepper's advice, as the only MAN she could trust with the knowledge that she wanted out of the marriage? She may have sought HIS advice either to understand why Henry couldn't, and what to do about it, what it meant about his health, or inclination. Had she failed in some way, or did Henry's desire for her fail? Did it mean he'd release her? She may never have encountered a man who didn't rise to the occasion. ;-)
Thanks Mary Lou. I'm glad yo found it helpful in understanding more about KH's life. I don't know if she would have thought of getting out of the marriage. Henry had annulled the unions with CoA and AC, it's true, but they were foreign princesses who would have been much harder to kill and they hadn't cheated on him. Her cousin Anne (who also hadn't cheated) lived just long enough to see her marriage annulled too and was then executed. I don't personally think KH and Culpepper were hoping for a happy ending unless Henry died first and they could have a Katherine of Valois/Owen Tudor kind of ending.
@@HistoryCalling True, and I didn't take into account that CoA, and AC were foreign princesses. But my point is that she may have entertained the idea that she could be widowed early, due to Henry's poor health, or released from the marriage based on NOT conceiving as (in her mind) AC apparently was. I'm not saying it was a good plan, but it is an alternative to her just thinking she could cheat on the King and possibly pass off any consequences as his offspring, which is what I always assumed. I think she was looking for advice from a male perspective, having been deprived of a father figure from a young age. Culpepper was close to the King, and knew things others, especially women wouldn't have known. I think Culpepper saw an opportunity to eventually marry the dowager Queen. For me, it makes more sense than simple lust in that high stakes game.
My favourite is Catherine Howard after of Catherine of Aragon
I still have hope that Ann of Cleaves gave Henry the smack down, I hope.
Sadly I don't think she did, but that's why she lived of course :-)
@@HistoryCalling That, or Henry was too embarrassed that a woman had slapped, or punched, his lights out.
Queen Kathryn truly so upsetting. She was likely the least politically motivated Queen and was & could of been not just the Queen Henry needed, but the court. She was graceful & joyful (she had her moments) but I think she had it in her to be a positive influence for England.
Yes, I don't think she was really interested in politics either and a neutral Queen would have been valuable to Henry at that point. She's basically the English version of a Greek tragedy. :-(
@@HistoryCalling 💯
if my conversion is even a little bit correct than it seems like her grandmother left her about $850 ($843.64) // £685.56 in her will
Ah, the good old days…
Subscribed.
Poor Katherine Howard
Groomed young at that place she was raised
I thought the TUDORS drama represented her life and marriage to Henry
Very realistically
I have to blame Agnes for Katheryn’s behaviour; if Katheryn had been adequately parented things might have been very different.
I wouldn't say her early upbringing means she had no agency in the Culpepper debacle, but she (like all of us) was the sum of her experiences and those up until that point hadn't set her up for political or relationship savvy. Tudor society wouldn't have the modern understanding of grooming, but the impact would occur regardless. Couple that with the lack of education/experience due to the lax supervision, the lack of consequences for the previous affairs probably imbuing a false sense of security, throw in Henry who cleverer minds failed to manage, the disaster feels almost inevitable. I still wouldn't absolve her from the Culpepper choice - she was older at that point and the political naivete is pretty inexcusable for anyone in the court, never mind a relative of Anne Boleyn - but on balance I still see her previous victim status as important context for it. (And while I'd never refer to Mary Tudor as a girl boss, given the restraints of the time and her position, I'd still see her at 19 having had relatively more power and agency than Katherine given the difference in training)
Katherine Howard's Father is my 16th Great Grandfather. Tracing my tree to the Tudor kings and beyond on a direct line is the most fascinating thing I've ever done. If you haven't already I highly recommend it.
Henry and Howard
Had a marriage that soured
Becoming queen
While still a teen
She soon found herself Culpeper powered
I think Katherine committed adultery. But I'm baffled by Lady Rochford though. She saw what happened to her husband and sister-in-law. I don't understand why she'd help Katherine sneak around.
Jealousy, perhaps, I think. Or perhaps a sick desire just to see others hurt, as she obviously did
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY GENEROUS DONATION. Yes, Jane Boleyn's motives continue to be a mystery. Her actions really make no sense. Possibly she was just an idiot though?
@@HistoryCalling She wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
Indeed she was not.
This was so interesting and well written. I was better able to map out the Pole family tree and tragically see how many people were executed. Thank you!
I never knew that Kathryn's life was so tragic. Sounds to me like she was used and abused by more than just the men in her life. Such a sad life. I think she may have felt trapped by Henry when he decided to marry her. There was no graceful way out. Then when she was promised mercy she told all and later tried to paint herself a victim probably hoping for Henry to offer her a divorce as he had her predecessor, Anne of Cleves. Instead it sounds like at this point in his life he had become quite vicious and had no intentions of offering her mercy. What is more heart breaking was that so many people turned against her and used her downfall to further thier own gain. I'm fully aware that she in a way was responsible for her own downfall by having an affair while queen, but I feel her punishment was far more harsh than the crime called for.
On a side note something you said sbout Kathryn escaping and running to try to find Henry to beg for mercy reminded me of something i heard in my youth about her cousin Anne Boleyn. I heard that after her miscarriage that she began to lose her sanity and that sometimes she would have a mad laugh. Probably something that would be considered today as a nervous laugh due to the stress upon her to produce a male heir. Do you have any recommendations for where I can either confirm or deny this? Thanks
Hmm, I don't remember ever hearing the story about Anne (other than sometimes she would laugh hysterically in the Tower in her final days). You could check Eric Ives' bio of her. If it's not mentioned there then I very much doubt it happened.
@@HistoryCalling thanks I will look.
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. Katherine Parr is my favorite historical person in history. Who's your favorite historical person in the Tudor marachy? How are you doing? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. We have lots of warm weather in Ontario Canada. How is the weather where you are? Have a great day see you next video 😊
My favourite person in Tudor history is probably Elizabeth I (a boring answer I know, but she was brill). Glad to hear you're both keeping well. The weather here is rather underwhelming for the time of year unfortunately. :-(
Although my view of her completely matches the one expressed (and substantiated) here, I think she was the most ill-treated in "The Tudors", which I saw a few months ago: a leering portrait of a giggling nymphette, naked on a swing as the camera ogled her endlessly. (And I gallantly averted my eyes, I promise! [No, I didn't]). My basic objection to that series was not historical, but a filmmaking one- the decision to play it as a soap opera, with arms waving, a constant flow of glamour, steam, hysteria, and shirtlessness, and a general over-the-top acting style that kept me from ever quite believing it. The casting of "young hotties" in most of the roles sealed the matter. So while Katherine Howard might not have been purely the victim some prefer to see, her fate in that show was too uncomplicated in the opposite direction: not so much inaccurate as mean-spirited, I thought, right down to the final indignity: she wets herself on the scaffold. Poor Katherine.
The performance I struggled with the most was Henry: I've seen JRM be very good in something else, but he had no chance in this context, being horribly miscast, and probably horribly directed. The giddy, drunk-with-power-every-single-moment, over-seething eventually made me dread his entrances, grabbing people's heads and trying to create erotic tension with every single man in every single scene...I would not have done well in his court. Don't like people touching my head. Especially if they're Henry VIII.
I remember that exact scene and I thought it was totally gratuitous as well, as was the one of her the night before her death, naked and trying out the block (she did try out the block, but I'm sure she wasn't naked for it). The Tudors is fine for guilty pleasure entertainment, but I agree you don't want to go taking it literally. That said, it is more accurate than it needed to be and still a lot better than some other shows in terms of historical accuracy (cough, Reign, cough Bridgerton).
@@HistoryCalling Yeah, 'guilty pleasure' is a good description, and I certainly enjoyed it and hung in with it. And I don't mind soapy stuff at all, but I don't think the super-broad acting and so forth always mixes well with real people and their stories.
i feel bad for her. she wasn't taught better. She was still very young and had been behaving this way for so long without real reproach or consequences
Katharine was a girl of loose morals. Not a judgement , just a fact. It drives me nuts when people today project their very modern views onto the morals of these people. They simply didn’t think like us-they all new this was high stakes and literally life and death.
She aimed high but was immature and frankly stupid-she paid a heavy price.
She sounds like she was fun but a bit of a floozy!
I certainly think she could have been better taught about how to behave by those who had the responsibility of raising her. You never heard a whiff (beyond obvious attempts at slander) directed at Anne Boleyn of any improper behaviour before or after her marriage, except with the King of course. The accusations made against her at the end were very clearly invented, whereas no such invention was needed for KH.
@@HistoryCalling She was taught how to behave in terms of manners and accomplishments, but no one troubled to give her any kind of moral education--it was all externals. Maybe most of all, she had not grown up with loving parents, and maybe (pure speculation) she was looking for love to make up for that.
I often think of Edward and Elizabeth and Mary as being very alone. They had their father, but he was not a loving one, and their mothers were gone. Elizabeth at least had servants who loved her and took care of her, and perhaps Mary as well. Edward had no one that I know of. Katherine too was completely alone. Terrifying.
She strikes me as a fairly "typical" young girl who got thrust into a situation WAY beyond her skill sets. She was swimming in massively deep waters and she had near zero sophistication. Did she know what she was doing? Yes...but she had no way to fully comprehend the consequences. Tragic all the way around.
Katherine Howard in her early teenage years was a bit precocious girl. Agnes and any other family member should’ve done a better job in protecting her. She made a lot of mistakes as a queen by putting herself in a precarious situations. I don’t know if she had an affair with Culpepper. However, that letter made it seem that they were very close in my opinion. Katherine Howard wasn’t blameless, but I still felt bad for her. Thank you for the history lesson.😊
Yes, same here. She was almost left to raise herself and it doesn't surprise me that things went so awry.
I am one of those who have been inclined to blame Howard's fate on the manipulation by the men in her life, particularly her family. But you are convinced that, if they had wanted another member of the Howard family to marry Henry, i wouldn't have been Katherine. I have to accept that position. However, her upbringing in her step-grandmothers household was certainly inadequate to say the least. As to her relationship with Culpepper, though I haven't been able to find an exact date when Henry first developed the leg ulcer that lasted until his death, it seems likely that it was already and issue before 1540. Earlier videos that you have produced confirmed that the ulcer smelled so bad that people could smell Henry was coming several rooms away. All that being considered, it explains to me why Katherine, possibly only 15 years old at the time would have fallen into a relationship with Culpepper, especially when her lady-in-waiting was facilitating it. One has to question the thinking of all the people surrounding Katherine who contributed to and shared her fate with her. That's my 2 cents.
I truly enjoyed learning more about this poor woman’s fate. She knew better. At the least she was taught right from wrong or otherwise she wouldn’t have been keeping things a secret. I can’t justify how she was killed but given her actions it makes sense for the time period
I think even if she knew it was not right, she thought she was in love. All those men took advantage of her and she had to marry a old, grumpy, ugly and sick man, who was also the king famous for killing his wives. Then comes this young and probably handsome man that gives her attention and what she might have considered to be love. She was stupid, but she was just a teen that didn't knew anything about true love without abuse, so I don't think she could be save, she was a victim of all the adults in her life
Great video ❤️ katherine howard and Anne boleyn are my favourite tudor Queens.
It's such a shame we don't have any record of them meeting. Had Anne lived another few years they probably would have.
@@HistoryCalling oh yes most likely katherine would have served in Anne's household as even bess Holland (Thomas Howard's mistress) was placed there.
Yes, I think that's a real possibility too. Hmm, I wonder if Henry would have gone after her if she'd been serving Anne? Probably actually. He had an affair with Madge Shelton and she was Anne's (more distant) cousin too.
@@HistoryCalling most likely he would have. I wonder if she would been coached to reject the King's advances like Jane Seymour or told to give In to him like madge had done.
I wonder what Derehams reaction would have been if she were to sleep with the king?
⚘ Excellent! Your research is simply stunning. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I'm glad you liked it. More on the Tudors to come in the not too distant future! :-)
She was only a child, really. She was in a forced marriage, and she was young and in love.
Amazing account, much time & research required!💕
Thank you very much :-)
Life was very tough in those days, which leads me to think that although Katherine was pretty uneducated, her survival instincts must have kicked in before she married Henry. She may not have had any say in whether she married Henry, but she would have known that Henry was a tyrrant at this point. She displayed terrible judgement by surrounding herself with people from her unorthodox past, rather than learned people she must have been recommended. To have had anything to do with another man after her marriage, is tantamount to suicide. Her own cousin should have been the yardstick for her behaviour. Stupid? Most definitely. Unfaithful? Possibly. In a time where just a whisper could seal your fate, she was unbelieveably irresponsible. Did she deserve to die? Not really. Should she have been imprisoned (for own good) or sent to a nunnery? Would have been a better outcome for her. Thanks HC. She isn't my fave, I'm afraid. 😃
Yes, she wasn't the smartest dear love her and didn't have good advice. I agree that nothing she did merited death though. Nunneries wouldn't have been an option anymore by this point, but an annulment and being sent back to her family in disgrace would have been a kinder option. That just wasn't Henry though :-(
@@HistoryCalling Her continued existence would have been a perpetual reminder of what must have seemed to his outsized ego a terrible humiliation.
10:52 "but neither of whom we have any pictures of" Oh, the dangers of hypercorrection. Start of on the right foot and end up tripping over the left