The Cumberland Line Sucks! But it Could be Better!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มี.ค. 2023
- Tried a new filming and editing style for this video, hopefully you guys like it!
Special thanks to my friend Kira for filming this video for me!
1 - Quaidy, commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
2 - H. Llewelyn, commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
3 - Stilgherrian, commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
4 - Strata8, commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Greens Transport Policy: greens.org.au/nsw/publictrans...
Labor Transport Policy: www.freshstartplan.com.au/roa...
Liberal Transport Policy: nswliberal.org.au/ourplanforn...
More Trains, More Services Stage 1 & 2: www.transport.nsw.gov.au/proj...
More Trains, More Services Stage 3 & 4: www.railplanning.com.au/our-p...
Sydney Metro Western Sydney Airport Report: www.transport.nsw.gov.au/corr...
Great video! Personally I dislike how the T5 (and T2) terminate at Glenfield. It makes commuting to Campbelltown from Parramatta a nightmare. Why not have the T2 go to Leppington and the T5 to Campbelltown? Increased frequency seems more than prudent; half an hour peak frequencies are atrocious. Sydney (and Australia in general) really has a frequency problem; do politicians think public transport is just for those who can't drive? Haha. Anyways, I wouldn't hold your breath but I do hope the T5 is fixed eventually.
Thanks!
I think you made a typo, since the T2/T5 terminate at Leppington, not Glenfield. As for why they changed the terminus, I'm not sure. I think it might be encourage development at Leppington, but that's just a guess. I do think having the T5 terminate at Campbelltown would work better though.
I don't think frequency is neccesarily an issue, 15 minutes is fine for the most part, although I'm from an area that had hourly buses so my standards are low. I think there were plans to gradually introduce 7.5 minute frequencies on most lines prior to covid, but those feel through due to the pandemic. That and we'd also need a lot more trains, if we ordered more 4 car trains instead of 8 cars it would be less of an issue, but it's too late to do that now.
I think they should also add a Blacktown - Mt Druitt Branch to the T5 Cumberland Line to substitute the T1 Penrith.
A good option would be for the T5 to go to St Marys as it would provide additional services as the new metro line will go there.
Used to use T5 a lot pre-Covid. AFAIK the 4 car set thing was driven purely by availability of rolling stock. The 4 car in the peak and 8 car off-peak probably reflects that, as spare 8 car sets would obviously be more available off peak. Trains were always packed between Parra and Fairfield/Cabra in the peak, but only lightly loaded otherwise.
Four T5 services per hour would be nice in the peak, but it is competing with lots of other services at that time (like the extra City via Granville services from Liverpool and beyond). The Bankstown line services will cease from Liverpool soon enough, probably to be replaced by (relatively fast) City via Regents Park services, just like in days of old.
Terminating services at Leppington is more due to the limited peak track capacity between Glenfield and Campbelltown/Macarthur. If you are a T5 user and have to do an arduous cross-platform change to a Campbelltown service, my heart goes out to you. Past talk of 'enhancing' the Glenfield to Macarthur stretch has fallen silent. The SSFL took out one option, and quadruplication would be hard; probably leaving a third passenger track as the best option. Like the arrangements on some New York lines, adding an additional track on the Eastern side (opposite from the SSFL) with new platforms for it, and making what is then the centre track into a bi-directional express track for peak-direction express services (and NSW Train Link). It's doable (albeit Ingleburn is a difficult spot for the engineering).
Given that corridor is likely to be the route to/from Sydney for any future high speed train system (stopping at Glenfield to connect with services to/from WSI), it needs something done. The eventual extension of the WSI metro to Macarthur might help, but by that time it will be busy in its own right (it's meant as a transport core for the already more populous Western Sydney, not for commuters to 'old' Sydney).
Another longer term hope is the Western Metro, which should reduce demand on services through Parra, opening up more paths for T5 services. I'm actually glad those stations aren't going to be co-located. Parra is crazy enough without adding more passenger handling load and the engineering in such tight urban spaces would be difficult and cramped. The metro station will better serve the Easy Street and new high rise residences better, link better with the Light Rail, nearby passing bus services and even the ferry. I'd rather it do that than make a lot of people walk/bus further to Parra station for metro services. If you live closer to the old Parra station, then use it, but IMHO wanting to combine stations is more a 'train fan' ideological thing than driven by market needs, especially with train/metro exchange available at Westmead for people from further west.
The strange platform 3 turn-around thing at Parramatta is weird. An interesting exercise in creative use of tracks, but just weird.
I do think it’s an issue that two platforms are being used at Parramatta to house terminated trains. As you mentioned, it creates a bottleneck for the other two platforms. While I wait at Parramatta station to travel West, I have noticed that it is usually a 2-3 minute wait during peak hour between trains (especially the Blue Mountains train and Express Penrith services). Too much frequency especially being only one track can be a bad thing because it will create even more of a bank up if one train is delayed because so many trains are using one track on the busiest railway line on the network.
You're 100% right. I think we probably need another clearways program, because there's a few spots on the network where a minor delay can cause cascading delays around the network.
correct that is the problem. Parramatta doesn't need those terminating T2 services which should be sent via regents park and then the 2 extra cumberland line trains can be re installed.
as someone who uses the t5 for short journeys, morning rush is crazy, evening rush is packed, and its usually faster for me to bike to parramatta than to take the train.
I'd love to use t5 more, but I always have to use the tripview app before actually boarding the train I want.
I remember not too long ago the Cumberland Line was occupied by 2nd generation rolling-stock naming 4 and maybe some 8-car S, K and C sets mainly.
The Parramatta square development directly north of Parramatta station was a massive wasted opportunity to expand Parramatta Stations terminal and platform capacity where the gov could of required the developer to build a cavern space underground for future station expansion. The need for expansion of Parramatta's capacity was identified wayy back in the Parramatta-Epping rail proposal. Even the new Western Sydney metro has to stop on the next block over instead of integrating seamlessly with the existing Station and T-Way bus terminal.
Yeah, that would have been a great idea. Now if we want to expand Parramatta station we've gotta tunnel under unfortunatley :/
Gotta love seeing my local station finally make a cameo
Finally, someone addressing this issue. I do infact agree with you for overcrowding, and frequencies. As someone who lives on stations served by the T5, it is a pain to ride. Every 30 mins is painful, especially in peak. In my opinion, they should run M set coupled up into 8 cars, during peak, then have them split up for the off peak. Like you said, Metro City & Southwest opening will free up some trains.
Good videos, but you didn't canvas the proposal that some western trains from Penrith or Richmond could stop at Granville allowing people to change for leppington services this worked very well for many years it also allowed people to travel from the west to commute to stations between Granville and homebush without the 30 minute wait at Parramatta that currently exists.
Everytime I upload a video there's one obvious thing I forget to mention! aaa
But yeah, I think that could work too, but it would slow down the T1, and mean the T2 would have a less direct service, so idk if that'd be the best option either.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The additional stop would only add 1 minute to the T1 service but greatly improve flexibility for many travellers. The worst decisions made over the years was thinking that everyone leaving Parramatta on T1 services wanted to go to the city. From a passenger view stopping at Granville and Lidcombe allowed greater travelling flexibility whilst only adding 2 minutes to the travel time for people going to the city.
@@bryanc8439 That would make sense, but I'd be concerned that it'd cause slowdown elsewhere. I'll have to look into it tbh
@@CityConnectionsMedia No it wouldn't. The T1 has access to 2 track pairs. It is time to start using it again and time to remember that Sydney trains isn't Sydney metro and that it has flexibility to offer services that the libs forgot about.
The report on the rail network will hopefully provide some base to update and optimise timetables. Once Metro West opens (2030 I know, but it's something) I wouldn't be suprised if a turnback gets constructed west of Westmead to allow T2 trains to terminate there, hopefully freeing up capacity at Parra.
Hopefully, if any progress is made I'll make sure to make a video on it!
i dont like the T5 terminate at liverpool on the weekends i would prefer it to go to leppington 7 days a week. Its makes it hard for people to get to Campbelltown or Glenfield from Parramatta on a Saturday or Sunday
Yeah. It's already annoying enough to change trains at Glenfield, and having to change at glenfield and liverpool just to get to Parramatta is even more annoying.
How much value do you think there is in running direct Penrith to Campbelltown/Macarthur trains, either as part of an expanded T5 or a new numbered line? (T6 is free and would fit imo). Kind of bad that the 3 biggest centres in western Sydney aren't very well connected to each other by public transport (only Penrith to Parramatta is currently a one seat ride, Penrith to Campelltown requires two changes with no direct busses either), despite the existing infrastructure allowing for a one seat ride, and all three being designated future growth areas. Long term this gap is partially filled by WSA metro if/when it gets expanded past the new airport to Macarthur, but in the meantime I see a gap that I think can fixed relatively easily. The only major issue I see is that it would increase complexity, especially this would require the re-introduction of reverse-branching at Glenfield, which might reduce the feasability of such a service over having a short timed transfer.
Personally, I'm not sure if there'd be enough of a demand for a Macarthur-Penrith service. I could see it as a supplement to the T5 though. There shouldn't be any issues at Glenfield, since all the lines and points are separated from each other, and the lines aren't at capacity.
If they finish the airport metro you'll have St Marys to Macarthur direct, and a 1 change options to Liverpool (change near the Airport onto the extended Leppington line).
Ive use the the trains blacktown to central for most of my life. I just want a more reliable service. I like living somewhere I can afford and the trip to the city isnt even that long when it works...
Yeah, I mentioned this in another comment but I think we need another clearways program. Stations like Parramatta just aren't up to snuff when it comes to handling modern traffic, so reliability and capacity suffers. Maybe this will be a future video.
The oscar trains will be operating on sector 3 which is penrith, northern line, Richmond line, north shore lines. They wont operate on sector 2 which is liverpool, leppington, Campbelltown
is there a source on that? I've not seen anything specifying where they'll be allocated to.
Well thought out. Some of your ideas are pretty close to reality as I watch this 12 months later.
10 minute, then 5 minute frequencys on all lines at all times is the clear way to move trips to trains. Build more platforms at Parramatta
I agree. Probably not 5 mins on all lines, since that would cause some capacity issues on branch lines, but it's still a good goal.
Why can't T5 terminate at Westmead instead, or "officially" terminate at Parra but then go on to a new siding just before Westmead where it could sit, wait, and return. Similar to Bondi Junction where services end but the train runs further so as not to block the platform before returning.
And all services should be 8 cars - it costs bugger all to run 8 instead of 4, and using the full platform length is less inconvenience for passengers.
I looked into that actually, and the simple answer is there's just not the space for a turnback near Westmead, so unless some homes were aquired it's not really do-able.
I’m not sure why the T2 trains that terminate at Parramatta don’t terminate at Homebush, like they do on the weekends, and on weekdays at Homebush, Platform 6 is not used, so that allows the T5 to use Platforms 3 and 4 at Parramatta
It's mostly so people living on the local don't have to transfer to another train to get to Parramatta. It's not ideal, but it's not really something we can get rid of without causing a lot of issues.
even as a frequent user of the T2 parramatta service, people used to be able to not need it. having the T1 stop at granville to pick up changing passengers instead of having the t2 hog platform 4 for 10 minutes would free up space for more trains for the cumberland line. this would make the t5 a viable local line, and the t1 can focus on being an express line. still, there are wayy too many people using the T1 at the moment, especially at parramatta.
The service doesn't start till to late in the morning for most people to commute also starting at macauthur would be better
tbh but plaform 4 at parramatta should be used for terminating trains from the city and for the t5 line as all you need to do is make the city to parramatta train less frequent. Also there are more train from parramatta to city. that are faster which will make up for the train from city to parramatta
That could work, but it would make a lot of people on the local between Parramatta and Redfern upset since they now have to transfer at a major station.
15 minute frequencies are still rubbish. What station upgrades would it take to get to 5 minute frequencies?
Probably not many. Most lines can do that atm, it's just the few bottlenecks around the system that limit it. That, and the lack of political will.
You are missing one thing the line from Merrylands to Leppington is already congested. Jamming more trains on it will either heavenly impact performance or reduce T2 services, and let's face it trips to the city are way more used and profitable.
I'm not sure it is actually, that line can generally support ~20tph (same as most lines in Sydney), and it currently only sees around 8-10tph at most. Assuming you're right though, it's still better imo to just increase T5 trains to 8 cars at all times.
A better rant than your previous one, however, just remember with labor winning, it's nothing more than a change of masters who treat you exactly the same as the previous oligarchs.
More trains is the solution. But since bob carr government didn't do much in 97 . I can't see this new government doing anything either 😊😂
Well alot can change in 25 years.
@Cities, Transport, and Kangaroos well, not much even in later years when Miss kenneally took office 🙄. But let see in the coming months if all these train delays and equipment failures ect all of a sudden dispear .
@@meah12345 We'll see
Check out page 137 pf the original Future Transport 2056 (2018) document....
www.opengov.nsw.gov.au/viewer/9a7683893bf3457ca5a2978213558918.pdf
I might have to do a video on that...
I have a hard time believing that the Liberal Party actually support anything positive for the network, given how poorly it's been treated by them over their last few terms. I can't help but feel that it's just set dressing for the election just gone by - they're a city party and they know it's a big issue among the locals.
As you said though, neither other major party seems to care at all, so who can you support?
It's hard to believe "anyone can do better than the Libs" if there's not even an alternate platform to bank on. Very frustrating as someone deeply sick of the Libs.
Just remmber 95 to 2011 labour was in power. And the city rail was pretty shit. But worked kinda 😅 but no major works were done . Unless you count glenfield station or Olympic park train station.
You're probably right, althought it's less that they're supporting something positive, and more that they're the only ones proposing something.