Thank you Joe for talking to me on the phone a few months ago and explaining this to me, and why I didn't need to swap the connectors on my Formula S to XLR :-D I've really appreciated your patience answering questions through email as well.
Class A/B has two devices (generally MOSFETS, sometimes BJTs) operating to amplify the whole wave at low levels, and either half (top or bottom) of the sound wave. The advantage of this is that you can get more power vs an equivalent class A amp, the disadvantage is that when the gain devices switch halves of the waves it creates unpleasant crossover distortion. Class A has one device or multiple devices in parallel amplifying the entire sine wave. The are less efficient (less power compared to class A/B) so it is expensive to make Class A amps with a good amount of power, but the advantages are that the circuits are generally much simpler, and there is no crossover distortion so you get a much better, clearer sound. A great class A amp will be most ppls endgame
How is balanced different from doubled voltage, assuming two leads for each channel of course? That is: How does a headphone tell the difference between a pair of cables at 0V (ground) and +12V (push) on the one hand, and -6V (pull) and +6V (push) on the other? I think headphones can tell only potential difference and not absolute potential, but I might have missed something. (You seem to agree with this viewpoint, though.)
Balanced equipment is usually balanced because that give one the ability to keep channels to exactly the same level and to keep noise down, also the transients of left and right are better if you can hear it, Non balanced equipment has reduced left and right transients because the channels really only use one channel to play them the same, with balanced equipment you are using two mono output amplifiers, it depends on the user’s ability to appreciate the equipment.
Hey guys, i been doing discos for years, had all different stuff over the years The music sound source i have used has always been rca outputs, i have never had a cd player or mp3 player with xlr connectors, so i dont have a comparison Usually the cd player i use is within a foot of the mixer and amp, so there's only ever a 2 foot length of rca cable The only real reasons i use xlr cables between the mixer and amps are, your less likely to knock a plug out if you drop something behind the setup, as the xlr are latched in, and rca cables seem to deteriorate quicker I have had lots of rca cables either oxidize and start to sound really crackly, or the actual pin and ring of the rca plug have separated from the plug and been left on or in the jack on the mixer when i been dismantling the system to move it from place to place I never had an xlr cable go bad On the other end of the spectrum, I have only ever used xlr mic inputs, because i have only ever had mics that come with xlr cables only, and the mixers i have used have only had xlr jacks for the mic channels, and again, xlr jacks/plugs are latched, so if you walk around with the mic, which i have done at presentations, the mic plug doesnt pull out the mixer when you walk too far away Im becoming aware of how good balanced is though, and im getting into the carnival side of sound systems, i ordered a reverb for the mic, and theres only phone plug sockets on it, so does that actually mean im taking a step back?
For us with hearing damage, who need lots of volume, balanced, especially in smaller, lower powered, cheaper gear, is beneficial for the power increase. No one ever really points that out. For me, the internet's common saying of "you'll never need more power for 95 percent of headphones" does not apply. Magni 3, atom for example, I run common cans like the he4xx at completely maxed all day . So for me, a cheap balanced amp would benefit mainly for the power/slash volume so I am not running full blast all day.
using a DAP via 4.4mm out to home system can be an issue if the 4.4mm is only wired to 4 pole (for headphone use) but dual 3-pin XLR input on home system needs the ground. Most people use the wrong cable. I hate gear that is fake balanced. It is very common to see XLR jacks but the circuit is not balanced.
The formula s shows you that single ended is more than adequate. I prefer lower noise > higher gain/power as long as your power is sufficient, but this can be for hard for hard to drive planar's
could you go through a run-down of what amp specs you guys look for... There is always the watts @ various ohm loads, stated THD, Frequency response , input impedance, signal to noise, damping factor, gain, noise floor. I get each metric independently but gets confusing putting them all together to try to judge "quality" by the specs. Also maybe on tubes you could discuss the different types and importance of tubes: Rectifier, preamp, power... Triode vs. Ultra Linear... KT-88/120 vs. EL 34.. Also it seems that Tubes can push speakers/HPs with considerably less stated power/watts than solid state which also gets a bit confusing.
Loved the video. I chose a cheap amp dac with 4.4 over 2.5 because I too got the vibes that it's the future of portable audio port. Also I wish you guys checked out ifi's new micro idsd signature. I believe It's 4.4 out will be a step above ifi's own xcan. I think you guys should keep it on your recommended gear list for Diana v2 (or even phi). ☺
I bought my Diana's with xlr's thinking that I can just attached adapters for 4.4, 2.5, 3.5 and 6.5. Sound wise, is that a reasonable set up? am I loosing sound quality by using adapter on xlr? Are there adapters that Abyss recommends?
This is a start, abyss-headphones.com/collections/headphone-accessories/products/jps-labs-abyss-adaptor-cables?variant=12774017171499 , then there's custom...
Holy fuck $300 and $500 for adapters?! Get out of here. Hope you didn't fall for this. Just go to Hart Audio cable and you can get 1 balanced cable that can be used with any balanced OR single ended connection out there with their interconnect system. You can be compatible with basically anything out there for a fraction of the price. Oh and then you only need the cable part for all future headphones you buy.
with a lot of entry level and mid FI amps that have balanced the emphasis has been on the balanced output and it just is better, or on some they have a 4.4 output for example but it's not balanced at all just the connector is designed to take a balanced cable. See if the amp is balanced and as you say do they recommend using the balanced output as it's often also up to twice the power in terms of Watts and volts. As my budget sits me fully in this space I often end up ru ni g my headphones balanced, although for nomadic usage I am about to get the chord mojo 2 and they don't use balanced so you know the SE is going to be the best output it's the only one 😁
On the Amp outputs on 4 pin xlr vs. 1/4 inch unbalanced at least on my amps the XLR is always the better output. Phonitor, Holo Audio Mammoth KTE, and cavalli liquid platinum are significantly better using balanced than 1/4. Obviously the Hps that require more juice are easier to tell but I can even tell on efficient headphones.
I have been watching you guys now for about a week now. I love your podcast. Much respect and love for you guys. I am studying engineer in college right now. Do you guys have any dealers here in Utah? I am going to by me some Diana's this summer this. summer
Right side guy tries to impress centre guy and the centre guy wants left side guy to speak more. I think the left side guy is centre guy's son? Right side guy has more valuable inputs though.
What are your favourite headphones for any price range or in general from other manufacturers? Except your own products obviously.... ;) ...can you even tell?
Engineers will say balanced is better than single ended pointing to numbers (XLR Vs RCA). Audiophilles will say most of the time single ended connection sounds better.
Do you guys think that the Kann Alpha from A&K is a good enough portable that as a DAC paired with the GS-X mini it would pair as well as something like a Nuprime DAC-10H or a RME ADI-2?
I don't agree. In truly balanced amps, XLR will be much better in terms of being able to use a lower volume, and overall clarity. I have extensively tested both on multiple TOTL headphone sets.
Dreadful video: they’re trying to clarify for complete beginners (as per 00:18) whether balanced cables are good or needed, but nowhere do they actually give a definition of what balanced cables are. Confused? A complete beginner will be suicidal after watching this!
We don’t think killing oneself would occur from us not describing a 3 pin XlLR balanced connector, a bit dramatic don’t you think?. The primary focus was on balanced headphone connections at the headphone, not line level, and more importantly they are not the same as the interconnecting cables between components. We’re answering the question in a way that works for a majority of people who ask us this question, not as a college level course on balanced systems. For those who are curious, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
Thank you Joe for talking to me on the phone a few months ago and explaining this to me, and why I didn't need to swap the connectors on my Formula S to XLR :-D I've really appreciated your patience answering questions through email as well.
Thanks for clearing that up. Will save me money too; will go single ended.
great topic, hope u do what the different between class A and class A/B amp
Class A/B has two devices (generally MOSFETS, sometimes BJTs) operating to amplify the whole wave at low levels, and either half (top or bottom) of the sound wave. The advantage of this is that you can get more power vs an equivalent class A amp, the disadvantage is that when the gain devices switch halves of the waves it creates unpleasant crossover distortion.
Class A has one device or multiple devices in parallel amplifying the entire sine wave. The are less efficient (less power compared to class A/B) so it is expensive to make Class A amps with a good amount of power, but the advantages are that the circuits are generally much simpler, and there is no crossover distortion so you get a much better, clearer sound. A great class A amp will be most ppls endgame
This might be a good topic: Explain the power rating of headphone amps and how the load matters. Perhaps transition to what 1266 needs and why.
I like the simplicity of zen dac zen can combo. You can run them balanced with small 4.4mm balanced cable. No need for bulky xlr cables.
In some headphone amplifiers using 4-pin XLR means the balanced output will have more power than the single ended.
How is balanced different from doubled voltage, assuming two leads for each channel of course? That is: How does a headphone tell the difference between a pair of cables at 0V (ground) and +12V (push) on the one hand, and -6V (pull) and +6V (push) on the other? I think headphones can tell only potential difference and not absolute potential, but I might have missed something. (You seem to agree with this viewpoint, though.)
Balanced equipment is usually balanced because that give one the ability to keep channels to exactly the same level and to keep noise down, also the transients of left and right are better if you can hear it, Non balanced equipment has reduced left and right transients because the channels really only use one channel to play them the same, with balanced equipment you are using two mono output amplifiers, it depends on the user’s ability to appreciate the equipment.
very good, and technical, class.
Hey guys, i been doing discos for years, had all different stuff over the years
The music sound source i have used has always been rca outputs, i have never had a cd player or mp3 player with xlr connectors, so i dont have a comparison
Usually the cd player i use is within a foot of the mixer and amp, so there's only ever a 2 foot length of rca cable
The only real reasons i use xlr cables between the mixer and amps are, your less likely to knock a plug out if you drop something behind the setup, as the xlr are latched in, and rca cables seem to deteriorate quicker
I have had lots of rca cables either oxidize and start to sound really crackly, or the actual pin and ring of the rca plug have separated from the plug and been left on or in the jack on the mixer when i been dismantling the system to move it from place to place
I never had an xlr cable go bad
On the other end of the spectrum, I have only ever used xlr mic inputs, because i have only ever had mics that come with xlr cables only, and the mixers i have used have only had xlr jacks for the mic channels, and again, xlr jacks/plugs are latched, so if you walk around with the mic, which i have done at presentations, the mic plug doesnt pull out the mixer when you walk too far away
Im becoming aware of how good balanced is though, and im getting into the carnival side of sound systems, i ordered a reverb for the mic, and theres only phone plug sockets on it, so does that actually mean im taking a step back?
great explanation! usually you just get an explaniation of what the different connectors are. Youve actually explained what it does and is.
For us with hearing damage, who need lots of volume, balanced, especially in smaller, lower powered, cheaper gear, is beneficial for the power increase. No one ever really points that out. For me, the internet's common saying of "you'll never need more power for 95 percent of headphones" does not apply. Magni 3, atom for example, I run common cans like the he4xx at completely maxed all day . So for me, a cheap balanced amp would benefit mainly for the power/slash volume so I am not running full blast all day.
using a DAP via 4.4mm out to home system can be an issue if the 4.4mm is only wired to 4 pole (for headphone use) but dual 3-pin XLR input on home system needs the ground. Most people use the wrong cable. I hate gear that is fake balanced. It is very common to see XLR jacks but the circuit is not balanced.
Great explanation. Thanks!
The formula s shows you that single ended is more than adequate. I prefer lower noise > higher gain/power as long as your power is sufficient, but this can be for hard for hard to drive planar's
could you go through a run-down of what amp specs you guys look for... There is always the watts @ various ohm loads, stated THD, Frequency response , input impedance, signal to noise, damping factor, gain, noise floor. I get each metric independently but gets confusing putting them all together to try to judge "quality" by the specs. Also maybe on tubes you could discuss the different types and importance of tubes: Rectifier, preamp, power... Triode vs. Ultra Linear... KT-88/120 vs. EL 34.. Also it seems that Tubes can push speakers/HPs with considerably less stated power/watts than solid state which also gets a bit confusing.
Loved the video. I chose a cheap amp dac with 4.4 over 2.5 because I too got the vibes that it's the future of portable audio port.
Also I wish you guys checked out ifi's new micro idsd signature. I believe It's 4.4 out will be a step above ifi's own xcan. I think you guys should keep it on your recommended gear list for Diana v2 (or even phi). ☺
Looks like there isn't a lot of interest for the ifi idsd signature for some reason. Wonder why...
I bought my Diana's with xlr's thinking that I can just attached adapters for 4.4, 2.5, 3.5 and 6.5. Sound wise, is that a reasonable set up? am I loosing sound quality by using adapter on xlr? Are there adapters that Abyss recommends?
This is a start, abyss-headphones.com/collections/headphone-accessories/products/jps-labs-abyss-adaptor-cables?variant=12774017171499 , then there's custom...
Holy fuck $300 and $500 for adapters?! Get out of here. Hope you didn't fall for this. Just go to Hart Audio cable and you can get 1 balanced cable that can be used with any balanced OR single ended connection out there with their interconnect system. You can be compatible with basically anything out there for a fraction of the price. Oh and then you only need the cable part for all future headphones you buy.
@@Artaois13 what’s your current audio setup ?
with a lot of entry level and mid FI amps that have balanced the emphasis has been on the balanced output and it just is better, or on some they have a 4.4 output for example but it's not balanced at all just the connector is designed to take a balanced cable. See if the amp is balanced and as you say do they recommend using the balanced output as it's often also up to twice the power in terms of Watts and volts. As my budget sits me fully in this space I often end up ru ni g my headphones balanced, although for nomadic usage I am about to get the chord mojo 2 and they don't use balanced so you know the SE is going to be the best output it's the only one 😁
On the Amp outputs on 4 pin xlr vs. 1/4 inch unbalanced at least on my amps the XLR is always the better output. Phonitor, Holo Audio Mammoth KTE, and cavalli liquid platinum are significantly better using balanced than 1/4. Obviously the Hps that require more juice are easier to tell but I can even tell on efficient headphones.
I have been watching you guys now for about a week now. I love your podcast. Much respect and love for you guys. I am studying engineer in college right now. Do you guys have any dealers here in Utah? I am going to by me some Diana's this summer this. summer
Right side guy tries to impress centre guy and the centre guy wants left side guy to speak more. I think the left side guy is centre guy's son? Right side guy has more valuable inputs though.
Agreed
great video! 3 guys discussing the topic they don't know nothing about :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
What are your favourite headphones for any price range or in general from other manufacturers? Except your own products obviously.... ;) ...can you even tell?
Thanks! Super informative vid for a noob
You guys should review the fiio m15 . Would like your input
Engineers will say balanced is better than single ended pointing to numbers (XLR Vs RCA). Audiophilles will say most of the time single ended connection sounds better.
what about 3,5 connector 4 poles for fostex t60rp are they balanced by this way? it has connection only for 1 cup
Do you guys think that the Kann Alpha from A&K is a good enough portable that as a DAC paired with the GS-X mini it would pair as well as something like a Nuprime DAC-10H or a RME ADI-2?
I don't agree. In truly balanced amps, XLR will be much better in terms of being able to use a lower volume, and overall clarity. I have extensively tested both on multiple TOTL headphone sets.
why does the green-blue T shirt guy look like "Christopher Reeves works at hospital" !
ABYSS! What are 3 amps (budget priced) strong enough for the 1266 TC?
best, without going totally broke Benchmark HPA4
great, and MUCH cheaper THX789
also consider Cayin iha-6
What microphones and microphone stands are they using?
Re20, the shock mount is just a generic on you can get on eBay. Wouldn’t recommend it for this specific mic as it blocks the vents.
Ive never met any audiophile that doesnt prefer the sound of balanced.
I have both... balanced sound is more detailed, stronger
Dreadful video: they’re trying to clarify for complete beginners (as per 00:18) whether balanced cables are good or needed, but nowhere do they actually give a definition of what balanced cables are. Confused? A complete beginner will be suicidal after watching this!
We don’t think killing oneself would occur from us not describing a 3 pin XlLR balanced connector, a bit dramatic don’t you think?. The primary focus was on balanced headphone connections at the headphone, not line level, and more importantly they are not the same as the interconnecting cables between components. We’re answering the question in a way that works for a majority of people who ask us this question, not as a college level course on balanced systems. For those who are curious, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio