I’m an electrician, 3:41 that screw driver is your mistake, I use only insulated ones that have a plastic layer on the shaft all the way down till the edge to prevent exactly that.
I am suprised this guy is still alive. He clearly doesn't know what he is doing yet has installed all this dangerous stuff? By the way, an inverter will not put ac out onto the PV input. He is talking nonsense.
The take away of the video: Turn off all breakers, never work live electricty Wait 5mins Measure voltage at inputs to see 0V Work with insulated gear When in doubt, don't assume, just ask a pro/search answer Good thing you are fine, DC power feels very intense painful
There Many Times you Have to work on appliances Live, to find the issues. Always work as though the power is on. Even if it isn't. Stored voltages. Like the man in the video showed. Be careful how you hold onto your screwdrivers by the insulated handles. Never touch the metal shaft. Thanks for this safety warning.
I took away, yes the wire was loose, and no other hand behind your back WOULD have helped. Now would a ground wrist strap have stopped the flow at your wrist would be interesting. They usually are used to stop you from frying the circuit board, not the circuit frying you.
@@robertsmith2956 typically ESD wrist wrap have a series 1Meg ohm resistor in their plug, so path of least resistance might still be through the body. Unless you connect it straight to ground, not sure what the impedance would be, something to investigate (safely) somehow
I was an electrician for years, years ago. Navy nuke and commercial nuke and NEC licensed. When you use your meter to test it dead, use the LIVE DEAD LIVE method. Test the meter on a known live circuit to make sure it is working properly. Then check the circuit(s) you’re verifying are dead. Then go back to the live circuit again to verify the meter is still working. Depending on the multimeter and circuit, you may want to test AC and DC. I get what the electrician told you about the quick touch method before grabbing on, but do LDL first.
We had an outlet on shop floor that had no circuit breaker. Turned off every one we could find, and nothing. So being a quick and dirty kind of guy. Grabbed two screwdrivers, and plugged them in to find the fuse. All I did was weld them together. Ended up removing the plug outlet, capping the wires and putting cover painted red over it. They drained a pond behind the building and there was a black and silver steel coke can that must have been down there for 45 years. Forgot how heavy they were.
@@walsakaluk1584as someone who has blown up a lightbulb during my childhood and almost being blind, the lamp idea is only good/safe if the bulb is rated for the power you are working with. Use proper tools from proper companies who use proper fuses and do proper testing.
Why the ^*&$ are you messing with the connectors on an energized piece of equipment? Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) would be off and cold before poking anything in there.
NFPA 70e - Worth a read for even do it yourself folks. I always tell people in the industrial manufacturing realm that the safety they are trained on in the plant carry over at home. For NFPA 70e, the basics of arc flash face shields, proper electrically related rubber gloves, leather overprotectors, things the DIY folks overlook regularly, but first and foremost aside from safety gear indeed is to make sure there is no power of any kind, verifying with a proper Multi-Meter. And if you are tired, step away and refresh in some manner, if not avoid electrical work unless it's life or death to begin with..........
I like how he mentions will prowse did he miss all the videos where will told you to make sure everything was turned off??? Shut off PV Shut off batteries Shut off inverter And if you're doing his solar hand truck even tells you to unplug it from the AC outlet not just shut it off. This guy is doing this just for clicks and to make money.
I am a retired electrician. You ain’t feeling nothing yet until you have experienced 480 V three phase commercial power. That will seriously wake you up and maybe even put you to sleep. I don’t recommend.
It’s wild how much/little the body can take depending on the variables…. Did cross your heart; got a so so ticker, but also have HVAC, I went into thinking anything above 240 would kill ya dead, and am happy to say I have proved otherwise😅 but DAM talk about wake up! A lot depends on the path of least resistance. Still worse shock I can say I ever received was from regular old 120v from an old refrigerator with the big metal handle that locked the door closed. Was in the garage raining out wet floor bear feet and grabbed that nice baseball bat grip…. I just remember thinking I need to let go and when I opened my eyes I was in the floor and somehow dad teleported right in front of me all wide eyed asking what happened? Retelling this I just realized how lucky I was being right handed.
@@utawmuddy5940 i can tell you getting it in the mouth when you drink water is the worse i have tried i was standing in the kitchen and i put my foot on a nail that went trought the floor and into a wire and back then it was not
@@Hansen710 dear lord! I have thought about that once when I saw a real life possibility but did not come close to getting zapped that way and it scared me just thinking about… and I imagine 120v would quickly feel like the most! Anything above might be death or at least unconscious as it’s right by the brain… you sir have won this round, but we shall dual again!
Or, as a green USAF technician working, by myself, in a power cabinet of a 10KW HF transmitter and came in contact with the power tube's -800 VDC grid supply and I got chucked across the shelter, not once, but twice. Take away; violated policy by working alone, not touching and discharging components with 'Jesus' stick and not understanding risks when a bleed resistor opens, etc. I knew instinctively "third time's a charm" and bailed on the troubleshooting task and got help. I think I used one of my nine lives that day.
A long time ago, I was replacing an old fuse box with a circuit panel, and accidentally got whacked real good with the unprotected mains power. Fortunately it was only a single leg of 110 to common, so it wasn't _that_ dangerous, but it scared me enough to up my safety game considerably. Likewise when I almost lost my eye to infection from debris I took to the face while weed whacking a long time ago. Started wearing safety glasses while doing yard work after that. That was after I almost lost an eye to a broken small (like 3/64") drill bit while I wasn't wearing eye protection, and afterwards started wearing eye pro in the shop. When I was a kid I used to work for a roofing company, and couldn't be bothered to wear the tether, until I fell off a roof. Then I started latching to the tether. Some day I'll be smart enough to be safe _prior_ to being injured. Sad to say I'm still pretty dumb about safety on things that haven't hurt me yet. Don't be stupid like me.
I used to power on large audio amplifiers with the cover off after repairing them and not look at it when powered on in case it exploded. Well after it was on for 5 or so minutes I was looking at it and measured the DC offset and biasing and it seemed in spec, left it longer and a transistor exploded and a fragment hit me near my eye, after that i wear safety glasses even when i am looking over an opened powered on amplifier. No fault of my own, I got a faulty transistor that let go after it was idling for awhile. It wasn't in thermal run away either.
I usually work around 120, 277 and 480 volts every day & its always good to know about electrical hazards like this one thank you for sharing. Just wanted to say there are a lot of electrical gloves but the ones you are using is mostly work gloves or not electrical. It needs to be all rubber gloves and leather on top to protect you from shocks. I would search (class 00) electrical gloves they are the proper gloves to use but you'd have to search what its rated for. Class 00 is 500V AC/ 750V DC rating. For safety like turning on a main breaker for a commercial building its recommended to use the most expensive one you can afford and a good flash suit. But to avoid all shock hazards its definitely better to deenergize everything and check with volt meter. Just another note of my many years of working with electrical those gloves you are using can still shock you - I've been shocked with crazy high static when I was opening a light fixture, this is most likely because the metal is not grounded & for some reason it builds up a high voltage charge. I've only been shocked by 120v AC but yeah its always best to turn off all breakers / main breaker with a lock when working on electrical. But be safe out there when working on electrical.
I am a Growatt owner and I can confirm that there is voltage on PV.. In my case it happened on the panels and it was at night. So I was sending voltage to the panels
Yeah. Growatt is not compliant for grid purposes but for offgrid.. Just bridge your grounds (to neutral), ground your chassis (and thereby ground your pv frames). I've had a 60v difference between frames and ground when the frames were not properly grounded.
@@techgeek2994 As I said the positive part of MPPT regulators are often common and connected direct from solar input to the battery plus (through switches). The negative from solar panel side is often the regulated one in the MPPT's. If then the negative side of the battery is connected to frame in the caravan (and the battery switch is not off) you can have a current loop from battery plus to MPPT solar input plus and to caravan frame if you make a short as he did. The morale is: don't short things and don't work on it until all switches are turned off. Also don't connect any of the solar panel wires to any frame or anything else for that matter.
Unfortunate that you found out about the nature of many of these units by getting shocked, but yes, the PV is not isolated from the AC output for many of them. If you read the manual they can explicitly state this or if you are more technically inclined and it's not explicitly stated they will say something such as do not ground the + or - wire of the solar array, ie do not attach PV - to your system earth bar. It is not a deficiency. It's just the type of design and likely will not change to an isolated design. The same thing goes for grid tied inverters. PV goes into a buck (boost) MPPT circuit into a HVDC bus and the H-bridge that produces the AC output fed is directly off that. There is no transformer isolation. It's not good that so many people are unaware of or do not understand what non-isolated means. I've made similar comments to what I've posted here far too many times on forums etc.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049No, it _should_ be bonded to the RV chassis, as it is considered ground potential. There is a potential on the PV terminals because the charge controller essentially “pumps” in current to be used by the inverter module or the battery charger module. Just because it doesn’t have any current to pump when the PV is disconnected doesn’t mean the other side isn’t still “pressurized” (meaning a voltage potential). Not expressly bonding the inverter to the chassis can lead to a host of other problems.
@@captainobvious9188This isn’t really related, but do you always need to bond ground and neutral in an RV installation? I can’t find a great explanation, so if you could send me some info I would really appreciate it.
@@NoahZimmerman Ideally, it should always be bonded of course, but it is less critical than in a stationary application. It is worse, IMO, to have it bonded when it isn't consistently un-bonded when plugged into shore power - then there will be most likely a potential created between the RV body and the earth ground. I have my inverter control a relay for mine.
Retired electronic engineer here. I am amazed at the number of "idiot warnings" needed for working with high voltage. Something has been lost - this used to be common knowledge back when electronics ran on not just a few volts, but hundreds of volts.
Have you read lately some manuals from household devices ? 90% warnings, 10% instructions, 0% technical data sheets. And my nephew (18 years) even is to lazy to read the 10%. Why should he bother with the 90% ?
Glad you’re OK! The dangers of working with higher voltage can never be overstated. I’ve got in the habit of shutting down batteries, inverters and disconnecting PV, THEN testing for voltage. The capacitors in inverters can (and regularly do) contain significant voltage that will zap you even with everything turned off. Don’t work on solar (or anything else dangerous) when tired or distracted. I’ve been guilty of this in the past, but luckily no shocks. 👍🤩⚡️☀️🔋
I like how he mentions will prowse did he miss all the videos where will told you to make sure everything was turned off??? Shut off PV Shut off batteries Shut off inverter And if you're doing his solar hand truck even tells you to unplug it from the AC outlet not just shut it off. This guy is doing this just for clicks and to make money.
@@mycabinlife1291 I always say that solar mistakes cost big money! I’ve seen Will make mistakes and even short a server rack battery, so we’re all in need of reminders. I don’t think Ray’s primary reason for making videos is to make money online. A lot of creators have a passion for sharing and teaching and a couple thousand $ a year from YT is a tiny % of what they can make professionally from a few hours consulting in their field. Many just need to show some type of income for the huge amount of time invested in their passions to appease their spouse or CPA! 👍☀️⚡️🔋🤩
I have found that when working with solar ,you shouldn’t assume that breaking a connection means one side will be dead. Moonlight on a solar string can produce deadly voltage.
I had an interesting atmospheric enigma once. After sunset the sky lit up. With the sun below the horizon, it was bouncing off the underside of overhead clouds, and confused my tracker since there was no direction to the light. I ended up writing in a sunrise and sunset cutoff for the sensor.
@@geoffwoodgate7450Mine make about 20.6 v each, but i have them in pairs, so about 41.4 v for two. It will give you a tickle, but you can let go of it.
Good video. I can confirm this issue also. I get hit by my MPP LV6548’s at the frame of the solar panels for the same reason. My right arm twitched for a half hour after that. Thankfully. The Luxpower inverters don’t have this issue. The EG4 6000xp, 12kpv and 18kpv don’t have AC on the PV input. Adam Delay had a similar experience with his EG4 6500’s a couple years back. Really appreciate you bringing this up.
Thanks, wow that must have been a pretty good shock!. Someone on Will's Video mentioned they were shocked by the 6000xp so there still might be something that I didn't see. Probably much safer that these older units though.
I agree with your electrician friend. I ALWAYS confirm with a NCD or probes before I touch any connections. Cheap insurance. At minimum get one of those compact fluke voltage detector pens. Be aware, though, that the ones I've seen are only rated for AC, so if you're messing with DC voltage, probes only. The other thing, which I didn't hear you mention, is cutting off power at the sources. Had you disconnected solar, batteries and line, the only voltage left would be residual in the caps within the device. While I wouldn't bet on it discharging right away, that would at least hopefully keep from providing as severe and continuous of a shock.
Very similar thing happened to me, I immediately ordered a complete set of 1000v insulated screwdrivers when I came out of the "shock" from what happened
@diySolarPowerFunWithRay mine was in the combiner box under the arrays but found out the voltage was being back fed from pair of 6500ex inverters I had 230' away
@diySolarPowerFunWithRay yeah I accidentally had everything grounded to the same place before I learned equipment (panel frames and rails) grounding is seperate from system (inverters and batteries) grounding
@@tjmooney4181Yeah. The 6500EX was a failure. Massive #'s of people were unhappy. Also has that issue unlike the newer 6k in the video (oem'd by luxpower).
Tech Tip 1: proper gloves for testing starts with a thick pair of dry leather gloves or leather (for snag protection) over rubber. I have one pr leathers I use for nothing else as regular maintenance that accumulates dirt, oil, sweat increases chance of shock-thru. Tech Tip 2: you CAN insulate multi-drivers if you can put shrink tube over the metal parts except the driver tip. I have a ratcheting driver with shrink tube & a manual multi-bit also shrink tube protected, and those can be used for general maintenance as long as you do a quick inspection before electrical work. Tech tip 3: always check electrical safety gear every time before starting electrical work no matter how recently you checked previously.
You can add shrink tube to the screw driver, but really good video. I wouldn't expect power to flow out of the solar terminals. Indeed, best would be to disconnect the batteries and turn off the inverter plus wearing rubber gloves and insulated screw drivers.
That sound like good advice. As is the case with most things in life, don't try to save money if it is dangerous to do so. Never be ashamed to hire a professional when you have a project that involves high voltage or current. I always watch how to videos, and then only do the parts of the project myself that I am confident will be safe to do. Plus, if you fry the equipment, you'll probably spend more to replace it than what the professional would have cost to do it for you. I also believe in learning with cheap lower power devices by building smaller scale prototypes of the project, even if that means that you buy devices you won't necessarily need again.
Please note the small auto fuses are typically rated for 32VDC. Do not use them on higher voltages. Also, introducing short circuits into electronics at random locations may not end well.
Need to know your circuit. De-energize everything using provided disconnect devices. Double check using multimeter, non-contact voltage detectors. Use rubber gloves rated for electrical work on both hands. Use only one hand. Use insulated tools meant for electrical work. Under ideal conditions even 12v can cause the condition you went through(the reason why 48v was not a thing in automotive world, until recently-nothing has changed yet, except some automakers taking risk to cut down cost). By the end of video, you already covered the info.❤️👍
I always use my insulated electricians screw drivers for that very reason. This video will no doubt save lives. I got DC shocked when 11 years old. Nothing like a 110v ac shock. Picked me up and threw me completely across 1 bay of a garage. Scared me and had pain in 1 arm.
Oh wow, glad you're ok!! Looking initially like it's a Growatt issue as EG4's not showing anything on meter. That or grounding in RV vs home installation.
On will prowse's video, Someone mentioned that they have a 6000 XP and they got shocked also. So I just think I didn't spend enough time trying to reproduce it
Newer 6k's not the older 6500ex. Different mfg. But the overwhelming issue is the unit wasn't completely de-energized. And fair enough, he goes over most of what is a better safety procedure. Lots of good comments.
Thank you for sharing, Ray. I am so glad for you and your family that the outcome was not tragic. I think it is best to just shut it all down and let them complain that dad is messing with stuff again, rather than dad not being around to do so. Take care❤
It was just as much an issue with you being grounded on the chassis with your elbows as it was touching with your forefinger on your screwdrivers metal shaft. You can touch “live” as long as there is no return path for the current to flow through. I made sure apprentices knew this 100%.
Side issue. Those breakers that isolate the PV, that you flicked off, are they rated for DC? I was watching a British video the other day, where they now require special DC switches for isolation as thermal arcing on non DC breakers has caused house fires.
Ya, I did the same thing with my Sungold inverter. I was screwing in the pv wire block at the inverter and got hit with 78 vac. It was a waker upper. Then, after searching the YT for answers, I ran across Will's video. Thanks, Will. And thanks for sharing this video. Cheers!
You can easily insulate your multi-bit screwdriver shaft (and any othe screwdriver, for that matter) with a sleeve of heat-shrink tubing. For even more protection, shrink a second layer of tubing over the first one AFTER that first layer has been shrunk on.
Hey Ray, I got an idea for your next video. You should get a ground bond tester to measure potential between different grounding points on your solar equipment. I don’t think I ever seen any TH-camr do a video on that yet…. So it would be kinda new with interesting results. I use one every week at work before we start up new equipment and record the measurements in Ohms. You can easily see what that ground point is rated for depending on the spot and thickness of wire. Love the channel btw
It is clearly written in the safety manual that equipment must be switched off before working at the terminals and that you must provide your unit with switches at the PV terminal. I also have a differential switch at the outlet plus a normal current limited switch. In addition, the power grid inlet can be easily disconnected, which I always do. In addition to all these precautions, my batteries are "floating", meaning they are not connected to ground, because that would attract lightning coming from the solar panels. Their frames ARE externally grounded though, making the power station thunderstorm proof. Don't use your electric grid ground for that, else you attract lightning into your house! ⚡
I normally do small diy electrical on my 100 year old home. Some areas still have nob and tube. I always check for live wires with a multimeter before and after. If you are still unsure, then turn the power off to the whole house.
Very good comments down there. I used to build substations and had to deal with induction from the over head lines. One of the easiest extra caution is using screwdrivers and pliers with a 1000V insulation. Yes, they cost a bit more but worth every penny. Agree with the person mentioning dead-life- dead check. If a cheap meter is not showing anything you have to check it on a known power source. Thanks for making RVers aware of this.
The design of hybrid inverters means that the panels are referenced to the AC they are not galvanically isolated. That because they switch to the same DC bus so you basically touched the mains with only a diode drop and a few. It's not a fault its the way it works. Over here it's 240v so much more spicey and would have killed you.
This is why there's electricians. As to multi-mode, hybrid inverters, case of getting use to them as the norm and not messing about with such equipment without knowledge some experience, test gear and tools, otherwise Darwin.
Please get yourself a set of electrical insulated screwdrivers, they are not so much more expensive than normal ones and would have spared you the pain and fright that you got.
I am also a solar installer, after any system we install, we first check if there is any short touch in the system, on the DC side of the inverter in the DP, after that we proceed with the work.
As my vocational school teacher here in Germany said almost 30 years ago: Only use insulated tools when tinkering with electrical installations. I have lost two side cutters so far because I cut live cables. Both were insulated, and nothing happened to me (apart from a shock).
Good PSA. Also be careful where you source those fuses. Most if not all fuses from amazon or aliexpress are fake and permit way more current than stated on the fuse.. sometimes over 3x the current and for hours. There is no quality control or testing on these and those cheap kits with lots of fuses are especially dangerous. Use only quality fuses from a dealer you're 100% sure is not selling trash/counterfeit fuses.. it could save your bacon. Don't cheap out on fuses :)
I’m not sure if just hooking up the battery can charge the ports, I don’t trust any of it anymore, I put shutoffs on every single wire and it gets nothing touched till it’s all dead
Great life lessons! Always .... always treat all installations as live. That story with the hand behind your back is probably pretty legit, if you factor in everything else needs to apply to that rule...always wear insulated footwear and ensure you are not on a conductive surface... eg standing on an aluminium ladder which or vehicle not on dry tyres.... campers with jack stands for example would not be a great idea to think it has insulation rubber on the tyres. Also remember plugging a camper into the electrical system will give it a path to ground...its likely if its not plugged into a socket and it's sitting on rubber tyres....there is a change in ground potential between any connected metal/conductive surface and ground, which in itself could become unsafe... you think this is silly until someone incorrectly wires an appliance or socket... as an example.... I have seen cords made up where live and neutral are rotated in error and then the ground wire has been accidentally pulled out, leaving the normal strip plug switch leaving all the sockets live with no protective earth.... on a camper this is more likely to be a hazard due to the likely hood of more conductive surfaces bringing it back to the natural which would technical complete the circuit causing a shocking potential (no pun intended) Also remember not all tools are created equal.... as a tool lover with an interest in tools and specifications.... although "insulated" some tools only have a rate of 12/100/250/500/1000 volts.... just be careful out there as modern solar arrays can go into the 100s of volts, its not uncommon to see 800/1000/1500v systems.... use the correct certified tools! Same goes for shoes/gloves .. certified safety personal protective equipment from a professional and reputable supplies is likely to have a known safety rating.... Electricity is no joke.... stay safe out there, if you do not have a decent understanding, please get a registered, qualified professional to ensure you have a safe installation!
Few weeks ago i had same issue when i was changing my PV wires 🤦 I wasn’t sure what happened but now i know for sure what was wrong there, just mine is 220v unit 🤦
We have an off-road place with a Trace 4048 I’ve had for close to 30 years. I have a transfer switch to just run the generator and a switch that isolates the AC input and output of the inverter. The it’s just a matter of shutting off the inverter dc breaker. I just changed the batteries for the first time in 30 years. I like to leave the meter hooked up and watch the voltage go away.
Glad you survived that nasty event! I have a couple of solar power converters which have been switched off from PV and battery sources for months now. The units are also turned off. But they have been beeping lately! I suspect that that capacitors inside them might be running down to levels that are triggering some alarms. This suggests that the capacitors in such solar units may not fully discharge after power-off. So there is danger even from completely turned off units!!!
Safety is So important. Thank you it was very informative and educational. The smallest system that caused death on Solar panels were on a RV 24V in 2018 in Dubai
Yesterday, I was up on my roof, changing out an MC4 connector on the positive line. It was a very hot and humid day, and I was sweating profusely. I went to insert the crimped terminal into the plastic housing when my right elbow inadvertently brushed up against the frame of a panel. I got zapped real bad. So, thanks for sharing what happened to you.
Here I am wanting to be overly safe lol Turn off the breaker, test. Physically disconnect AC, retest. Physically disconnect the panels. Turn off the DC breaker, test. Physically disconnect the battery. Turn off the unit. Test, test, test insulated screwdriver
Tip1: Never have more than one tool in your hands at any given time. If you're going to switch to another tool, lay down the first tool, before picking up the other tool. This also applies to when you're not working with electricity. Tip2: Use screwdrivers that are bought insulated. If you need a screwdriver, which you can't buy with insulation, add several layers of heatshrink with glue (one layer at a time of course). Tip3: Always, always - if possible - work with power off. Sometimes it's not possible (when you work with batteries directly), but whenever possible, switch off the power. ... For Ray: About the van: I'd recommend insulating that aluminium frame, so you'll make future accidents less likely to happen. 😃
The SPF 3000TL LVM- ES Growatt manual , all electrical connections and maintenance should be done with no power on the inverter to prevent unit damage or electric shock
Thanks for sharing your experiences, these are good lessons for me going forward. On analysing your experience with floating/stray voltages on the chassis or body of the inverter and caravan, I thought of your grounding system. You may need to check the grounding system and probably install a portable grounding system for your caravan. I suggest so because If you recall the testes you conducted on the inverter supplying your EV and the one supplying your house, they both registered zero volts, an indication of suggesting no floating voltages, and this could be explained by the fact that your house has an effective and efficient wired ground system that is bonded/connected to all electrical appliances, including your inverters, to provide this safe earthing system. So please try getting someone to check and possibly strengthen your electrical appliance grounding/earthing system.
I am very a-feared of working with electricity. The manuals that come with these units often need a Rosetta Stone to decipher. I disconnect all PV breakers, turn off batteries with switches I use, switch off automatic breakers. I also check power with a multi-meter and I also discharge the capacitors inside the Inverter/MPPT before fiddling around with anything. The fiddling is limited to connecting/disconnecting main power lines in/out and PV in/out. I also made insulating sleeves for any battery cables of cables with exposed wire or terminals/lugs. I use heat shrink cut to length and small enough to be snug on the cable/wire. I electrical tape one end closed. I have red and black ones for pos and neg cables. When I disconnect a cable on the batteries or All-in-one, I slip on a sleeve and make sure it is tight enough that it cannot just slip off.
NO LIVE WORK!!! Insulated tools! Read the instructions! Don't work tired! No metal rings! Those gloves are to keep your hands clean but that's all they do. I don't think electricity or any device that works with more than 50 Volts are a 'Hidden danger', maybe not visible but everyone knows is dangerous. Your video is useful to show that if you don't know what are you doing is better to ask for help. This is NOT a tutorial on how to do things and only shows SOME of the dangers. Thank you!
The problem with inverters is the have very large caps inside. Even if you turn everything off you still need to short out the DC terminals to get rid of that stored energy. Apart from that working on an inverter connected to shore power and live is just dumb. Ray, thanks for being so honest and putting this video up as a warning to others. The Growatt is not isolated which is a big no no in power electronics. There should never be AC voltage leaking through to the DC side. Buy a Victron - it's safer.
Extremely valuable info. Thank you. Glad you are okay. WOW!!! I saw you wearing gloves in an earlier video you made and thought that was a great idea. I bought a pair and received them yesterday. Will always wear them around high voltage...anything over 12 volts. Thanks again for sharing. Tom
Always wear safety glasses when working with electricity also. Good information always shut the inverter down before working on it check voltage. I have a EG4- 6000XP haven't gotten it fully connected yet. It does have the UL 1741 listing not sure if the growatt model you had did think to get a UL listing should never have 120V AC on the PV lines. Another good reason to make sure the panels are grounded.
For any body who doesn't know too much about their equipment they should TURN OFF EVERY THING before they work on it. To be really safe try to ground it as well. For people knowing things a little better then the "one hand in the pocket" rule is not bad BUT THAT MEANS DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING WITH ANY PART OF YOUR BODY other than the hand you work with. For people that know a little more then most MPPT solar regulators (that control the solar input to the batteries) regulate on the negative side and have plus as common but for some reason most people ground the negative side of the battery to frame. That means that what blows the fuses in this video may well be the battery voltage. Also measuring an ac voltage doesn't necessarily make it dangerous. It depends much upon what current it can deliver but if you don't know then turn it ALL of before you work on it. To get an electric shock is not necessarily deadly. I was an apprentice for repairing Radio and TV sets many years ago and over the 4.5 years it took I estimate that I got a shock at least once a day on average. Most where small but some where big. Some from very high voltage and some from the mains. The finger on the screwdriver we used to charge our selves to the picture tube high dc voltage (15,000v + dc) and then draw a spark from a mate. They didn't like it but we all got it back again at some time. If you get used to shocks it isn't nearly as dangerous I believe. Just think about animals and electric fences. Some are very scared of it and some don't care. They just go through the fences as if there was nothing.
Thank you. For clarification, the AC was on the Positive DC terminal "In" directly from the Solar panels (after solar DC disconnect box), correct? I hope the all-in-one folks will show us schematically how this is happening and a method to avoid it.
It all boils down to there being no transformer isolation between the PV input and the rest of the unit. There's a non-isolated path from PV input all the way to the AC output, passing across the internal HVDC supply on it's way. Additionally, that HVDC always has high voltage* (can be > 400VDC) on it so long as the unit is operating on battery as battery voltage is stepped up to that voltage to run the AC output stage. (*technically this is LV but let's not split hairs)
Great info and glad you’re ok. Regardless of the level of knowledge, training, or certification, anyone can benefit from electrical safety and hazard training. Statistically, it’s the 15+ year vets that are involved in the majority of shock, arc flash, and arc blast incidents. So just a reminder that it doesn’t matter what your background might be, we should always take time to refresh and look back over what we are doing to make sure it’s safe. Never be too old to learn and do better.
I've seen where the bonding screw caused voltage to go through the casing. It depends on the applications whether to leave the bonding screw in or removing it.
I found out about it the hard way too. It has since become a well known issue, at least on the solar forums. At the time i had never heard of it and had no reason to suspect the inverter would put AC out onto the PV circuit. Now we know..
Ive installed that same type of growatt before and got a tingle off the screws on the side face plate of it and that was 240v. It's because it needs to be earthed to the ground. If you look at anything that generator, inverter they will have an ground screw. When i had finished testing it was grounded and i touched the same face plate screw and got no tingle. So if using in a rv make sure all power is off before touching anything.
It's common. You can bond neutral, ground, and battery minus and probably solar panel frame together. Add GFCIs as well. Then it will trip if any current leaks to ground / chassis.
Thanks for getting the message out there that something that looks DYI actually isn’t and should be left for qualified people to do. Yes, these voltages are dangerous and should only be worked on by trained people. Anyone surprised that a wire on the positive lead contacting the chassis will spark is proof that you are not trained!
LOL Done that. It's better with 240v. Shocking. Also, electricians One Handed Rule. I bought another set of insulated screw drivers after that. I always use them, except this time when I used a cheap one quickly.
I wish I could say I never made that mistake. Several years ago when I was starting to build my solar backup system,Adam ,with Signature Solar showed me a Growatt inverter that was being repaired. The PV input screws are very close to metal parts that are part of the frame. So I knew better than to tighten the screw without turning off all inputs,PV ,battery, and grid power. The ES model has neutral and ground bounded. This European model has 230v connected between neutral and line. That can be confusing to US customers so we forget the inverter frame is 120 v potential to the neutral out of the auto transformer. Despite knowing this I got in a hurry with bad results. Turn everything off ,double check all wiring before energizing,then don’t put your hands or tools where they don’t belong. Do as I say,not as I do!!
@@my_channel_44 Signature Solar sells Growatt systems with the ground-neutral bond broken for the US market. If you buy a European unit, the bond is still there. The units look identical and have the same part and model numbering. This is a dangerous situation.
@@diySolarPowerFunWithRay This is tricky. Although there may be a design flaw (not discounting that) AC ground is likely to be connected to DC negative (chassis ground); but AC Neutral should *NOT* be bonded to ground in the vehicle, IMHO. That should only happen if connected to shore power, and only bonded at the Utility mains (service Entrance). Having live terminals at the DC input is indeed an unexpected surprise. And you have indeed identified the best practice for maintenance / service - disconnect ALL sources of power. thanks for the PSA video!
Thanks! I have that exact Growatt. It’s the 48 v. It’s been running perfectly for 5 years. I saw Wil Prowse warning video. I should get some electrical gloves.
thanks for sharing, great that you are OK. BTW, you do not evven need 1 Amp to kill you, we are talking miliamps that can kill you at higher voltages. I have growatt 5000ES in off-grid setup. when I work on the unit I first disconnect the solar panels (have a DC type circuit breaker that breaks power and ground) then I disconnect the AC out and AUX in via dual circuit breakers, then I power off the unit (it takes some 20 seconds to do so), then I wait a little but I keep in mind that there is a capacitor on electronic board that it is still charged. It is a good idea to always use insulated tools and to use some good gloves. here is interesting info on how many amps can kill you: *Electric Shock: How Much Current Will Kill You?* A current of 10 mA or 0.01 A is a severe shock, but it would not be fatal. As we approach 100 mA or 0.1 A, muscle contractions set in. It is imperative to realize that due to the low resistance of the heart, a current of only 10 mA is sufficient to kill us. But the current never reaches the heart, since the resistance of our skin is higher and thus completely absorbs this current. If this meager current were to reach the heart in any way, it would almost certainly be fatal. When the current rises above 1000 mA or 1A, muscle contractions increase to such an extent that we cannot release the wire. This tenacity is, ironically, a consequence of muscular paralysis. At this point, the heart experiences ventricular fibrillation, an uncoordinated, intermittent twitching of the ventricles, which causes ineffective heartbeats that can lead to death unless immediate help is called. A further increase in the current towards 2000 mA or 2A leads to burns and unconsciousness. Muscle contraction caused by the shock is now so strong that the heart falls into clamps. Exposure to such an amount of current can lead to terrible internal burns, and the clamps can lead to cardiac arrest. Death is possible.
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I’m an electrician, 3:41 that screw driver is your mistake, I use only insulated ones that have a plastic layer on the shaft all the way down till the edge to prevent exactly that.
Was shocked this was not every "electricians" comment.
@@Akdale777 quite 'shocking' to hear haha
This, always use insulated tools when doing anything related to electrics.
@@dominus6695 shockingly good joke
I am suprised this guy is still alive. He clearly doesn't know what he is doing yet has installed all this dangerous stuff? By the way, an inverter will not put ac out onto the PV input. He is talking nonsense.
The take away of the video:
Turn off all breakers, never work live electricty
Wait 5mins
Measure voltage at inputs to see 0V
Work with insulated gear
When in doubt, don't assume, just ask a pro/search answer
Good thing you are fine, DC power feels very intense painful
Glad to see you are still alive.
There Many Times you Have to work on appliances Live, to find the issues. Always work as though the power is on. Even if it isn't. Stored voltages. Like the man in the video showed. Be careful how you hold onto your screwdrivers by the insulated handles. Never touch the metal shaft. Thanks for this safety warning.
yes and dont expect safety from chinese branded inverters/breakers, I have seen videos of these dc breakers melting
I took away, yes the wire was loose, and no other hand behind your back WOULD have helped.
Now would a ground wrist strap have stopped the flow at your wrist would be interesting. They usually are used to stop you from frying the circuit board, not the circuit frying you.
@@robertsmith2956 typically ESD wrist wrap have a series 1Meg ohm resistor in their plug, so path of least resistance might still be through the body. Unless you connect it straight to ground, not sure what the impedance would be, something to investigate (safely) somehow
I was an electrician for years, years ago. Navy nuke and commercial nuke and NEC licensed. When you use your meter to test it dead, use the LIVE DEAD LIVE method. Test the meter on a known live circuit to make sure it is working properly. Then check the circuit(s) you’re verifying are dead. Then go back to the live circuit again to verify the meter is still working. Depending on the multimeter and circuit, you may want to test AC and DC. I get what the electrician told you about the quick touch method before grabbing on, but do LDL first.
We had an outlet on shop floor that had no circuit breaker. Turned off every one we could find, and nothing. So being a quick and dirty kind of guy. Grabbed two screwdrivers, and plugged them in to find the fuse. All I did was weld them together. Ended up removing the plug outlet, capping the wires and putting cover painted red over it.
They drained a pond behind the building and there was a black and silver steel coke can that must have been down there for 45 years. Forgot how heavy they were.
Always confirm your instrument works before trusting it
An incandescent lamp to be sure is good too.
@@walsakaluk1584as someone who has blown up a lightbulb during my childhood and almost being blind, the lamp idea is only good/safe if the bulb is rated for the power you are working with. Use proper tools from proper companies who use proper fuses and do proper testing.
Why the ^*&$ are you messing with the connectors on an energized piece of equipment? Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) would be off and cold before poking anything in there.
Yes and if you’re unsure, do your TOR calculations to do when you’ll be close to zero.
According to the video, it doesn't look like they learned how to turn off everything yet. But nice screwdrivers and gloves.
NFPA 70e - Worth a read for even do it yourself folks. I always tell people in the industrial manufacturing realm that the safety they are trained on in the plant carry over at home. For NFPA 70e, the basics of arc flash face shields, proper electrically related rubber gloves, leather overprotectors, things the DIY folks overlook regularly, but first and foremost aside from safety gear indeed is to make sure there is no power of any kind, verifying with a proper Multi-Meter. And if you are tired, step away and refresh in some manner, if not avoid electrical work unless it's life or death to begin with..........
he even had the audacity to touch the screwdriver metal
I like how he mentions will prowse did he miss all the videos where will told you to make sure everything was turned off???
Shut off PV
Shut off batteries
Shut off inverter
And if you're doing his solar hand truck even tells you to unplug it from the AC outlet not just shut it off.
This guy is doing this just for clicks and to make money.
I am a retired electrician. You ain’t feeling nothing yet until you have experienced 480 V three phase commercial power. That will seriously wake you up and maybe even put you to sleep. I don’t recommend.
Hvac guy here 480v rooftops i turn on looking away after testing everything with ohms
It’s wild how much/little the body can take depending on the variables…. Did cross your heart; got a so so ticker, but also have HVAC, I went into thinking anything above 240 would kill ya dead, and am happy to say I have proved otherwise😅 but DAM talk about wake up! A lot depends on the path of least resistance. Still worse shock I can say I ever received was from regular old 120v from an old refrigerator with the big metal handle that locked the door closed. Was in the garage raining out wet floor bear feet and grabbed that nice baseball bat grip…. I just remember thinking I need to let go and when I opened my eyes I was in the floor and somehow dad teleported right in front of me all wide eyed asking what happened? Retelling this I just realized how lucky I was being right handed.
@@utawmuddy5940 i can tell you getting it in the mouth when you drink water is the worse i have tried
i was standing in the kitchen and i put my foot on a nail that went trought the floor and into a wire
and back then it was not
@@Hansen710 dear lord! I have thought about that once when I saw a real life possibility but did not come close to getting zapped that way and it scared me just thinking about… and I imagine 120v would quickly feel like the most! Anything above might be death or at least unconscious as it’s right by the brain… you sir have won this round, but we shall dual again!
Or, as a green USAF technician working, by myself, in a power cabinet of a 10KW HF transmitter and came in contact with the power tube's -800 VDC grid supply and I got chucked across the shelter, not once, but twice. Take away; violated policy by working alone, not touching and discharging components with 'Jesus' stick and not understanding risks when a bleed resistor opens, etc. I knew instinctively "third time's a charm" and bailed on the troubleshooting task and got help. I think I used one of my nine lives that day.
A long time ago, I was replacing an old fuse box with a circuit panel, and accidentally got whacked real good with the unprotected mains power. Fortunately it was only a single leg of 110 to common, so it wasn't _that_ dangerous, but it scared me enough to up my safety game considerably.
Likewise when I almost lost my eye to infection from debris I took to the face while weed whacking a long time ago. Started wearing safety glasses while doing yard work after that. That was after I almost lost an eye to a broken small (like 3/64") drill bit while I wasn't wearing eye protection, and afterwards started wearing eye pro in the shop. When I was a kid I used to work for a roofing company, and couldn't be bothered to wear the tether, until I fell off a roof. Then I started latching to the tether.
Some day I'll be smart enough to be safe _prior_ to being injured. Sad to say I'm still pretty dumb about safety on things that haven't hurt me yet. Don't be stupid like me.
i used to work for a electrician that licked his fingers and touched the wires, to test if its off
it is very importent
I used to power on large audio amplifiers with the cover off after repairing them and not look at it when powered on in case it exploded. Well after it was on for 5 or so minutes I was looking at it and measured the DC offset and biasing and it seemed in spec, left it longer and a transistor exploded and a fragment hit me near my eye, after that i wear safety glasses even when i am looking over an opened powered on amplifier. No fault of my own, I got a faulty transistor that let go after it was idling for awhile. It wasn't in thermal run away either.
I usually work around 120, 277 and 480 volts every day & its always good to know about electrical hazards like this one thank you for sharing. Just wanted to say there are a lot of electrical gloves but the ones you are using is mostly work gloves or not electrical. It needs to be all rubber gloves and leather on top to protect you from shocks. I would search (class 00) electrical gloves they are the proper gloves to use but you'd have to search what its rated for. Class 00 is 500V AC/ 750V DC rating. For safety like turning on a main breaker for a commercial building its recommended to use the most expensive one you can afford and a good flash suit. But to avoid all shock hazards its definitely better to deenergize everything and check with volt meter. Just another note of my many years of working with electrical those gloves you are using can still shock you - I've been shocked with crazy high static when I was opening a light fixture, this is most likely because the metal is not grounded & for some reason it builds up a high voltage charge. I've only been shocked by 120v AC but yeah its always best to turn off all breakers / main breaker with a lock when working on electrical. But be safe out there when working on electrical.
Thank you!
Thanks for the safety reminder, Ray. Glad to see that you're well.
A lesson hard learned is not soon forgotten.
yep. I've had a scar over my eye for 50 years reminding me, yes you do hit girls.
I am a Growatt owner and I can confirm that there is voltage on PV.. In my case it happened on the panels and it was at night. So I was sending voltage to the panels
Yeah. Growatt is not compliant for grid purposes but for offgrid.. Just bridge your grounds (to neutral), ground your chassis (and thereby ground your pv frames).
I've had a 60v difference between frames and ground when the frames were not properly grounded.
How is inverter going to get voltage if you turn off pv dc breaker ?
@@techgeek2994 He didn't turn off the Battery DC switch.
@@leonhardtkristensen4093 why would battery provide voltage on pv terminals ?
@@techgeek2994 As I said the positive part of MPPT regulators are often common and connected direct from solar input to the battery plus (through switches). The negative from solar panel side is often the regulated one in the MPPT's. If then the negative side of the battery is connected to frame in the caravan (and the battery switch is not off) you can have a current loop from battery plus to MPPT solar input plus and to caravan frame if you make a short as he did.
The morale is: don't short things and don't work on it until all switches are turned off. Also don't connect any of the solar panel wires to any frame or anything else for that matter.
Unfortunate that you found out about the nature of many of these units by getting shocked, but yes, the PV is not isolated from the AC output for many of them. If you read the manual they can explicitly state this or if you are more technically inclined and it's not explicitly stated they will say something such as do not ground the + or - wire of the solar array, ie do not attach PV - to your system earth bar.
It is not a deficiency. It's just the type of design and likely will not change to an isolated design. The same thing goes for grid tied inverters. PV goes into a buck (boost) MPPT circuit into a HVDC bus and the H-bridge that produces the AC output fed is directly off that. There is no transformer isolation.
It's not good that so many people are unaware of or do not understand what non-isolated means. I've made similar comments to what I've posted here far too many times on forums etc.
So it sounds like his inverter is grounded to his RV chassis when it should not be?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049No, it _should_ be bonded to the RV chassis, as it is considered ground potential. There is a potential on the PV terminals because the charge controller essentially “pumps” in current to be used by the inverter module or the battery charger module. Just because it doesn’t have any current to pump when the PV is disconnected doesn’t mean the other side isn’t still “pressurized” (meaning a voltage potential).
Not expressly bonding the inverter to the chassis can lead to a host of other problems.
Thanks for the explanation. Diysolarforum!
@@captainobvious9188This isn’t really related, but do you always need to bond ground and neutral in an RV installation? I can’t find a great explanation, so if you could send me some info I would really appreciate it.
@@NoahZimmerman Ideally, it should always be bonded of course, but it is less critical than in a stationary application. It is worse, IMO, to have it bonded when it isn't consistently un-bonded when plugged into shore power - then there will be most likely a potential created between the RV body and the earth ground. I have my inverter control a relay for mine.
I wish more people on TH-cam would take the time to let people know the dangers of electrical shock. Thank you.
P.S. Glad you're okay
Retired electronic engineer here. I am amazed at the number of "idiot warnings" needed for working with high voltage. Something has been lost - this used to be common knowledge back when electronics ran on not just a few volts, but hundreds of volts.
Have you read lately some manuals from household devices ? 90% warnings, 10% instructions, 0% technical data sheets. And my nephew (18 years) even is to lazy to read the 10%. Why should he bother with the 90% ?
Darwin does that already.
Glad you’re OK! The dangers of working with higher voltage can never be overstated. I’ve got in the habit of shutting down batteries, inverters and disconnecting PV, THEN testing for voltage. The capacitors in inverters can (and regularly do) contain significant voltage that will zap you even with everything turned off. Don’t work on solar (or anything else dangerous) when tired or distracted. I’ve been guilty of this in the past, but luckily no shocks. 👍🤩⚡️☀️🔋
I like how he mentions will prowse did he miss all the videos where will told you to make sure everything was turned off???
Shut off PV
Shut off batteries
Shut off inverter
And if you're doing his solar hand truck even tells you to unplug it from the AC outlet not just shut it off.
This guy is doing this just for clicks and to make money.
@@mycabinlife1291 I always say that solar mistakes cost big money! I’ve seen Will make mistakes and even short a server rack battery, so we’re all in need of reminders. I don’t think Ray’s primary reason for making videos is to make money online. A lot of creators have a passion for sharing and teaching and a couple thousand $ a year from YT is a tiny % of what they can make professionally from a few hours consulting in their field. Many just need to show some type of income for the huge amount of time invested in their passions to appease their spouse or CPA! 👍☀️⚡️🔋🤩
@@terrahillfarm except when will makes mistakes he owns them... that is not what this guy did.
This was an eye opener for me, thank you!
I have found that when working with solar ,you shouldn’t assume that breaking a connection means one side will be dead.
Moonlight on a solar string can produce deadly voltage.
I had an interesting atmospheric enigma once. After sunset the sky lit up. With the sun below the horizon, it was bouncing off the underside of overhead clouds, and confused my tracker since there was no direction to the light. I ended up writing in a sunrise and sunset cutoff for the sensor.
Depends how it is wired but just one 12V panel normally has an open circuit voltage of about 40.
On my setup a full moon makes .8 volt . I used eight pairs of panels, open voltage 41.2 . One reason I went with a 24 volts system....
@@geoffwoodgate7450Mine make about 20.6 v each, but i have them in pairs, so about 41.4 v for two. It will give you a tickle, but you can let go of it.
Very glad you're OK. Appreciate the reminder and info.
Thank you very much for taking the time to make this important video.
Thank you for helping us be more aware and possibly saving ourselves from a very bad outcome.
Good video. I can confirm this issue also. I get hit by my MPP LV6548’s at the frame of the solar panels for the same reason. My right arm twitched for a half hour after that.
Thankfully. The Luxpower inverters don’t have this issue. The EG4 6000xp, 12kpv and 18kpv don’t have AC on the PV input.
Adam Delay had a similar experience with his EG4 6500’s a couple years back. Really appreciate you bringing this up.
Thanks, wow that must have been a pretty good shock!. Someone on Will's Video mentioned they were shocked by the 6000xp so there still might be something that I didn't see. Probably much safer that these older units though.
I agree with your electrician friend. I ALWAYS confirm with a NCD or probes before I touch any connections. Cheap insurance. At minimum get one of those compact fluke voltage detector pens. Be aware, though, that the ones I've seen are only rated for AC, so if you're messing with DC voltage, probes only.
The other thing, which I didn't hear you mention, is cutting off power at the sources. Had you disconnected solar, batteries and line, the only voltage left would be residual in the caps within the device. While I wouldn't bet on it discharging right away, that would at least hopefully keep from providing as severe and continuous of a shock.
Glad your OK bro...
Thanks 👍
Thank you so much for making this video. I'm glad your ok man.
Thanks for the info and video you probably saved a lot of people from getting shocked.
Thanks!
Very similar thing happened to me, I immediately ordered a complete set of 1000v insulated screwdrivers when I came out of the "shock" from what happened
Yup. Same here. Was yours a growatt also?
@diySolarPowerFunWithRay mine was in the combiner box under the arrays but found out the voltage was being back fed from pair of 6500ex inverters I had 230' away
@tjmooney4181 dang, so was your negative PV wire connected to the frame of your combiner box?
@diySolarPowerFunWithRay yeah I accidentally had everything grounded to the same place before I learned equipment (panel frames and rails) grounding is seperate from system (inverters and batteries) grounding
@@tjmooney4181Yeah. The 6500EX was a failure. Massive #'s of people were unhappy. Also has that issue unlike the newer 6k in the video (oem'd by luxpower).
Thanks for sharing. Important information. Glad you are OK.....
Any electrical work you MUST use insulated tools. That way You’ll live another day
Tech Tip 1: proper gloves for testing starts with a thick pair of dry leather gloves or leather (for snag protection) over rubber. I have one pr leathers I use for nothing else as regular maintenance that accumulates dirt, oil, sweat increases chance of shock-thru.
Tech Tip 2: you CAN insulate multi-drivers if you can put shrink tube over the metal parts except the driver tip. I have a ratcheting driver with shrink tube & a manual multi-bit also shrink tube protected, and those can be used for general maintenance as long as you do a quick inspection before electrical work.
Tech tip 3: always check electrical safety gear every time before starting electrical work no matter how recently you checked previously.
I'm grateful to good heavens you're alive. Stay safe.
You can add shrink tube to the screw driver, but really good video. I wouldn't expect power to flow out of the solar terminals. Indeed, best would be to disconnect the batteries and turn off the inverter plus wearing rubber gloves and insulated screw drivers.
That sound like good advice. As is the case with most things in life, don't try to save money if it is dangerous to do so. Never be ashamed to hire a professional when you have a project that involves high voltage or current. I always watch how to videos, and then only do the parts of the project myself that I am confident will be safe to do. Plus, if you fry the equipment, you'll probably spend more to replace it than what the professional would have cost to do it for you. I also believe in learning with cheap lower power devices by building smaller scale prototypes of the project, even if that means that you buy devices you won't necessarily need again.
Thank you so much for the safety tips. I am so grateful that you are still alright after this incident.
Please note the small auto fuses are typically rated for 32VDC. Do not use them on higher voltages. Also, introducing short circuits into electronics at random locations may not end well.
A good idea is to insulate all screwdriver stem or buy electrician screwdriver that are already insulated.
Need to know your circuit. De-energize everything using provided disconnect devices. Double check using multimeter, non-contact voltage detectors.
Use rubber gloves rated for electrical work on both hands. Use only one hand. Use insulated tools meant for electrical work. Under ideal conditions even 12v can cause the condition you went through(the reason why 48v was not a thing in automotive world, until recently-nothing has changed yet, except some automakers taking risk to cut down cost). By the end of video, you already covered the info.❤️👍
I always use my insulated electricians screw drivers for that very reason. This video will no doubt save lives. I got DC shocked when 11 years old. Nothing like a 110v ac shock. Picked me up and threw me completely across 1 bay of a garage. Scared me and had pain in 1 arm.
Wow. That's Crazy! Interesting. Glad you're still here. My mom said i was thrown a ways when I was a baby after I jammed something into the outlet.
Oh wow, glad you're ok!! Looking initially like it's a Growatt issue as EG4's not showing anything on meter. That or grounding in RV vs home installation.
On will prowse's video, Someone mentioned that they have a 6000 XP and they got shocked also. So I just think I didn't spend enough time trying to reproduce it
Newer 6k's not the older 6500ex. Different mfg. But the overwhelming issue is the unit wasn't completely de-energized. And fair enough, he goes over most of what is a better safety procedure. Lots of good comments.
Thank you for sharing, Ray. I am so glad for you and your family that the outcome was not tragic. I think it is best to just shut it all down and let them complain that dad is messing with stuff again, rather than dad not being around to do so. Take care❤
It was just as much an issue with you being grounded on the chassis with your elbows as it was touching with your forefinger on your screwdrivers metal shaft. You can touch “live” as long as there is no return path for the current to flow through. I made sure apprentices knew this 100%.
Side issue. Those breakers that isolate the PV, that you flicked off, are they rated for DC?
I was watching a British video the other day, where they now require special DC switches for isolation as thermal arcing on non DC breakers has caused house fires.
Ya, I did the same thing with my Sungold inverter. I was screwing in the pv wire block at the inverter and got hit with 78 vac. It was a waker upper. Then, after searching the YT for answers, I ran across Will's video. Thanks, Will. And thanks for sharing this video. Cheers!
You can easily insulate your multi-bit screwdriver shaft (and any othe screwdriver, for that matter) with a sleeve of heat-shrink tubing. For even more protection, shrink a second layer of tubing over the first one AFTER that first layer has been shrunk on.
Hey Ray, I got an idea for your next video. You should get a ground bond tester to measure potential between different grounding points on your solar equipment. I don’t think I ever seen any TH-camr do a video on that yet…. So it would be kinda new with interesting results. I use one every week at work before we start up new equipment and record the measurements in Ohms. You can easily see what that ground point is rated for depending on the spot and thickness of wire. Love the channel btw
It is clearly written in the safety manual that equipment must be switched off before working at the terminals and that you must provide your unit with switches at the PV terminal.
I also have a differential switch at the outlet plus a normal current limited switch. In addition, the power grid inlet can be easily disconnected, which I always do.
In addition to all these precautions, my batteries are "floating", meaning they are not connected to ground, because that would attract lightning coming from the solar panels.
Their frames ARE externally grounded though, making the power station thunderstorm proof. Don't use your electric grid ground for that, else you attract lightning into your house! ⚡
I normally do small diy electrical on my 100 year old home. Some areas still have nob and tube. I always check for live wires with a multimeter before and after. If you are still unsure, then turn the power off to the whole house.
Knob and tube is also called tit and a$$, because that's what you end up on. Your a$$.😂
There is no substitute for knowing what you're doing.
Thank Goodness you're OK. Thank you for posting this valuable lesson.
Very good comments down there. I used to build substations and had to deal with induction from the over head lines. One of the easiest extra caution is using screwdrivers and pliers with a 1000V insulation. Yes, they cost a bit more but worth every penny. Agree with the person mentioning dead-life- dead check. If a cheap meter is not showing anything you have to check it on a known power source. Thanks for making RVers aware of this.
That is definitely good advice. My meter is kind of annoying because the test leads always disconnect from the bottom of the meter.
The design of hybrid inverters means that the panels are referenced to the AC they are not galvanically isolated. That because they switch to the same DC bus so you basically touched the mains with only a diode drop and a few. It's not a fault its the way it works. Over here it's 240v so much more spicey and would have killed you.
This is why there's electricians.
As to multi-mode, hybrid inverters, case of getting use to them as the norm and not messing about with such equipment without knowledge some experience, test gear and tools, otherwise Darwin.
Please get yourself a set of electrical insulated screwdrivers, they are not so much more expensive than normal ones and would have spared you the pain and fright that you got.
I am also a solar installer, after any system we install, we first check if there is any short touch in the system, on the DC side of the inverter in the DP, after that we proceed with the work.
It's always good to have reminders on safety.
As my vocational school teacher here in Germany said almost 30 years ago: Only use insulated tools when tinkering with electrical installations. I have lost two side cutters so far because I cut live cables. Both were insulated, and nothing happened to me (apart from a shock).
Good PSA. Also be careful where you source those fuses. Most if not all fuses from amazon or aliexpress are fake and permit way more current than stated on the fuse.. sometimes over 3x the current and for hours. There is no quality control or testing on these and those cheap kits with lots of fuses are especially dangerous. Use only quality fuses from a dealer you're 100% sure is not selling trash/counterfeit fuses.. it could save your bacon. Don't cheap out on fuses :)
I’m not sure if just hooking up the battery can charge the ports, I don’t trust any of it anymore, I put shutoffs on every single wire and it gets nothing touched till it’s all dead
Great life lessons!
Always .... always treat all installations as live.
That story with the hand behind your back is probably pretty legit, if you factor in everything else needs to apply to that rule...always wear insulated footwear and ensure you are not on a conductive surface... eg standing on an aluminium ladder which or vehicle not on dry tyres.... campers with jack stands for example would not be a great idea to think it has insulation rubber on the tyres.
Also remember plugging a camper into the electrical system will give it a path to ground...its likely if its not plugged into a socket and it's sitting on rubber tyres....there is a change in ground potential between any connected metal/conductive surface and ground, which in itself could become unsafe... you think this is silly until someone incorrectly wires an appliance or socket... as an example.... I have seen cords made up where live and neutral are rotated in error and then the ground wire has been accidentally pulled out, leaving the normal strip plug switch leaving all the sockets live with no protective earth.... on a camper this is more likely to be a hazard due to the likely hood of more conductive surfaces bringing it back to the natural which would technical complete the circuit causing a shocking potential (no pun intended)
Also remember not all tools are created equal.... as a tool lover with an interest in tools and specifications.... although "insulated" some tools only have a rate of 12/100/250/500/1000 volts.... just be careful out there as modern solar arrays can go into the 100s of volts, its not uncommon to see 800/1000/1500v systems.... use the correct certified tools! Same goes for shoes/gloves .. certified safety personal protective equipment from a professional and reputable supplies is likely to have a known safety rating....
Electricity is no joke.... stay safe out there, if you do not have a decent understanding, please get a registered, qualified professional to ensure you have a safe installation!
Few weeks ago i had same issue when i was changing my PV wires 🤦 I wasn’t sure what happened but now i know for sure what was wrong there, just mine is 220v unit 🤦
We have an off-road place with a Trace 4048 I’ve had for close to 30 years. I have a transfer switch to just run the generator and a switch that isolates the AC input and output of the inverter. The it’s just a matter of shutting off the inverter dc breaker. I just changed the batteries for the first time in 30 years. I like to leave the meter hooked up and watch the voltage go away.
So glad to hear that you're OK
Glad you survived that nasty event! I have a couple of solar power converters which have been switched off from PV and battery sources for months now. The units are also turned off. But they have been beeping lately! I suspect that that capacitors inside them might be running down to levels that are triggering some alarms. This suggests that the capacitors in such solar units may not fully discharge after power-off. So there is danger even from completely turned off units!!!
Safety is So important. Thank you it was very informative and educational.
The smallest system that caused death on Solar panels were on a RV 24V in 2018 in Dubai
Yesterday, I was up on my roof, changing out an MC4 connector on the positive line. It was a very hot and humid day, and I was sweating profusely. I went to insert the crimped terminal into the plastic housing when my right elbow inadvertently brushed up against the frame of a panel. I got zapped real bad. So, thanks for sharing what happened to you.
Thanks for sharing that. Do you know if the frame of your solar panels were connected to Earth ground?
Here I am wanting to be overly safe lol
Turn off the breaker, test. Physically disconnect AC, retest.
Physically disconnect the panels.
Turn off the DC breaker, test. Physically disconnect the battery.
Turn off the unit.
Test, test, test
insulated screwdriver
Tip1: Never have more than one tool in your hands at any given time. If you're going to switch to another tool, lay down the first tool, before picking up the other tool. This also applies to when you're not working with electricity.
Tip2: Use screwdrivers that are bought insulated. If you need a screwdriver, which you can't buy with insulation, add several layers of heatshrink with glue (one layer at a time of course).
Tip3: Always, always - if possible - work with power off. Sometimes it's not possible (when you work with batteries directly), but whenever possible, switch off the power.
... For Ray: About the van: I'd recommend insulating that aluminium frame, so you'll make future accidents less likely to happen. 😃
The SPF 3000TL LVM- ES Growatt manual , all electrical connections and maintenance should be done with no power on the inverter to prevent unit damage or electric shock
Thanks for sharing your experiences, these are good lessons for me going forward. On analysing your experience with floating/stray voltages on the chassis or body of the inverter and caravan, I thought of your grounding system. You may need to check the grounding system and probably install a portable grounding system for your caravan. I suggest so because If you recall the testes you conducted on the inverter supplying your EV and the one supplying your house, they both registered zero volts, an indication of suggesting no floating voltages, and this could be explained by the fact that your house has an effective and efficient wired ground system that is bonded/connected to all electrical appliances, including your inverters, to provide this safe earthing system. So please try getting someone to check and possibly strengthen your electrical appliance grounding/earthing system.
Where was the AC that shocked you coming from? Was it from the inverter or the grid? Your video was very informative.
Instead touching those wires I often short them before work, in any case popping a breaker if left unnoticed.
Great advice. Please be safe.
I am very a-feared of working with electricity. The manuals that come with these units often need a Rosetta Stone to decipher. I disconnect all PV breakers, turn off batteries with switches I use, switch off automatic breakers. I also check power with a multi-meter and I also discharge the capacitors inside the Inverter/MPPT before fiddling around with anything. The fiddling is limited to connecting/disconnecting main power lines in/out and PV in/out. I also made insulating sleeves for any battery cables of cables with exposed wire or terminals/lugs. I use heat shrink cut to length and small enough to be snug on the cable/wire. I electrical tape one end closed. I have red and black ones for pos and neg cables. When I disconnect a cable on the batteries or All-in-one, I slip on a sleeve and make sure it is tight enough that it cannot just slip off.
NO LIVE WORK!!!
Insulated tools!
Read the instructions!
Don't work tired!
No metal rings!
Those gloves are to keep your hands clean but that's all they do.
I don't think electricity or any device that works with more than 50 Volts are a 'Hidden danger', maybe not visible but everyone knows is dangerous.
Your video is useful to show that if you don't know what are you doing is better to ask for help. This is NOT a tutorial on how to do things and only shows SOME of the dangers.
Thank you!
As an EE it’s fascinating to think some of the public would assume you’d have safety class isolation between those two sides of this equipment.
The problem with inverters is the have very large caps inside. Even if you turn everything off you still need to short out the DC terminals to get rid of that stored energy. Apart from that working on an inverter connected to shore power and live is just dumb. Ray, thanks for being so honest and putting this video up as a warning to others. The Growatt is not isolated which is a big no no in power electronics. There should never be AC voltage leaking through to the DC side. Buy a Victron - it's safer.
Extremely valuable info. Thank you. Glad you are okay. WOW!!!
I saw you wearing gloves in an earlier video you made and thought that was a great idea. I bought a pair and received them yesterday. Will always wear them around high voltage...anything over 12 volts.
Thanks again for sharing. Tom
Always wear safety glasses when working with electricity also. Good information always shut the inverter down before working on it check voltage. I have a EG4- 6000XP haven't gotten it fully connected yet. It does have the UL 1741 listing not sure if the growatt model you had did think to get a UL listing should never have 120V AC on the PV lines. Another good reason to make sure the panels are grounded.
For any body who doesn't know too much about their equipment they should TURN OFF EVERY THING before they work on it. To be really safe try to ground it as well.
For people knowing things a little better then the "one hand in the pocket" rule is not bad BUT THAT MEANS DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING WITH ANY PART OF YOUR BODY other than the hand you work with.
For people that know a little more then most MPPT solar regulators (that control the solar input to the batteries) regulate on the negative side and have plus as common but for some reason most people ground the negative side of the battery to frame. That means that what blows the fuses in this video may well be the battery voltage.
Also measuring an ac voltage doesn't necessarily make it dangerous. It depends much upon what current it can deliver but if you don't know then turn it ALL of before you work on it.
To get an electric shock is not necessarily deadly. I was an apprentice for repairing Radio and TV sets many years ago and over the 4.5 years it took I estimate that I got a shock at least once a day on average. Most where small but some where big. Some from very high voltage and some from the mains. The finger on the screwdriver we used to charge our selves to the picture tube high dc voltage (15,000v + dc) and then draw a spark from a mate. They didn't like it but we all got it back again at some time.
If you get used to shocks it isn't nearly as dangerous I believe. Just think about animals and electric fences. Some are very scared of it and some don't care. They just go through the fences as if there was nothing.
Thank you. For clarification, the AC was on the Positive DC terminal "In" directly from the Solar panels (after solar DC disconnect box), correct? I hope the all-in-one folks will show us schematically how this is happening and a method to avoid it.
It all boils down to there being no transformer isolation between the PV input and the rest of the unit. There's a non-isolated path from PV input all the way to the AC output, passing across the internal HVDC supply on it's way. Additionally, that HVDC always has high voltage* (can be > 400VDC) on it so long as the unit is operating on battery as battery voltage is stepped up to that voltage to run the AC output stage. (*technically this is LV but let's not split hairs)
Great info and glad you’re ok. Regardless of the level of knowledge, training, or certification, anyone can benefit from electrical safety and hazard training.
Statistically, it’s the 15+ year vets that are involved in the majority of shock, arc flash, and arc blast incidents.
So just a reminder that it doesn’t matter what your background might be, we should always take time to refresh and look back over what we are doing to make sure it’s safe. Never be too old to learn and do better.
Interesting! Well said!
Good video! Thanks for mentioning Will P.
I've seen where the bonding screw caused voltage to go through the casing. It depends on the applications whether to leave the bonding screw in or removing it.
Good information. Thanks. Good practice however is to disconnect all power sources before working on anything 😮
Yes, you need an AC and DC disconnect, and anytime you work on your PV system, turn them off.
I found out about it the hard way too. It has since become a well known issue, at least on the solar forums. At the time i had never heard of it and had no reason to suspect the inverter would put AC out onto the PV circuit. Now we know..
Ive installed that same type of growatt before and got a tingle off the screws on the side face plate of it and that was 240v. It's because it needs to be earthed to the ground. If you look at anything that generator, inverter they will have an ground screw. When i had finished testing it was grounded and i touched the same face plate screw and got no tingle. So if using in a rv make sure all power is off before touching anything.
The capacitors in the inverter still hold a charge, probably this is what gave you the shock and why your getting a voltage reading
Always use a screwdriver with an insulated shaft.
Also You cannot keep the inverter closed up in your RV. It should be in a ventilated place.
It's common. You can bond neutral, ground, and battery minus and probably solar panel frame together. Add GFCIs as well. Then it will trip if any current leaks to ground / chassis.
Hell yes, me too, worst shock I’ve ever had, had a Powmr 5k, it had 430 volts at the solar input and live to the panels. Man that hurts.
Thanks for getting the message out there that something that looks DYI actually isn’t and should be left for qualified people to do. Yes, these voltages are dangerous and should only be worked on by trained people. Anyone surprised that a wire on the positive lead contacting the chassis will spark is proof that you are not trained!
Great information and a worthy cautionary tale. Thank you for your transparency and for this video!
LOL Done that. It's better with 240v. Shocking. Also, electricians One Handed Rule.
I bought another set of insulated screw drivers after that. I always use them, except this time when I used a cheap one quickly.
Your RV is not grounded. Because it has rubber (tyres). Which will not go to earth. May be check that out.
Great review of the issues with the all-in-ones. Thank you.
When doing the touch test, use the back of your hand/fingers so you pull away if it is energised.
I wish I could say I never made that mistake. Several years ago when I was starting to build my solar backup system,Adam ,with Signature Solar showed me a Growatt inverter that was being repaired. The PV input screws are very close to metal parts that are part of the frame. So I knew better than to tighten the screw without turning off all inputs,PV ,battery, and grid power. The ES model has neutral and ground bounded. This European model has 230v connected between neutral and line. That can be confusing to US customers so we forget the inverter frame is 120 v potential to the neutral out of the auto transformer. Despite knowing this I got in a hurry with bad results.
Turn everything off ,double check all wiring before energizing,then don’t put your hands or tools where they don’t belong.
Do as I say,not as I do!!
I don't think the ES is neutral-ground bonded, unless you make one. Check on that.
@@my_channel_44 Signature Solar sells Growatt systems with the ground-neutral bond broken for the US market. If you buy a European unit, the bond is still there. The units look identical and have the same part and model numbering. This is a dangerous situation.
Arcs and sparks
capacitors remain charged, as well.
I am not sure if you are seeing AC power, or DC.
The grounding may need some attention.
It's AC power
@@diySolarPowerFunWithRay This is tricky. Although there may be a design flaw (not discounting that) AC ground is likely to be connected to DC negative (chassis ground); but AC Neutral should *NOT* be bonded to ground in the vehicle, IMHO.
That should only happen if connected to shore power, and only bonded at the Utility mains (service Entrance). Having live terminals at the DC input is indeed an unexpected surprise.
And you have indeed identified the best practice for maintenance / service - disconnect ALL sources of power.
thanks for the PSA video!
Thanks! I have that exact Growatt. It’s the 48 v. It’s been running perfectly for 5 years. I saw Wil Prowse warning video. I should get some electrical gloves.
thanks for sharing, great that you are OK. BTW, you do not evven need 1 Amp to kill you, we are talking miliamps that can kill you at higher voltages. I have growatt 5000ES in off-grid setup. when I work on the unit I first disconnect the solar panels (have a DC type circuit breaker that breaks power and ground) then I disconnect the AC out and AUX in via dual circuit breakers, then I power off the unit (it takes some 20 seconds to do so), then I wait a little but I keep in mind that there is a capacitor on electronic board that it is still charged. It is a good idea to always use insulated tools and to use some good gloves.
here is interesting info on how many amps can kill you: *Electric Shock: How Much Current Will Kill You?*
A current of 10 mA or 0.01 A is a severe shock, but it would not be fatal. As we approach 100 mA or 0.1 A, muscle contractions set in. It is imperative to realize that due to the low resistance of the heart, a current of only 10 mA is sufficient to kill us.
But the current never reaches the heart, since the resistance of our skin is higher and thus completely absorbs this current. If this meager current were to reach the heart in any way, it would almost certainly be fatal.
When the current rises above 1000 mA or 1A, muscle contractions increase to such an extent that we cannot release the wire. This tenacity is, ironically, a consequence of muscular paralysis.
At this point, the heart experiences ventricular fibrillation, an uncoordinated, intermittent twitching of the ventricles, which causes ineffective heartbeats that can lead to death unless immediate help is called.
A further increase in the current towards 2000 mA or 2A leads to burns and unconsciousness. Muscle contraction caused by the shock is now so strong that the heart falls into clamps. Exposure to such an amount of current can lead to terrible internal burns, and the clamps can lead to cardiac arrest. Death is possible.
The electric safety fuse pannel is messed up, it misses crucial components and you were not using electric screwdriver.