Blowing all that stuff with a 240VAC feed from the generator sounds more like a floating neutral and less like a ground-bonding issue. Are you mistaking the neutral for the ground? The bonding may have provided a partial/poor current return path through the ground back to the generator but that shouldn't have blown up anything if the neutral was properly connected from the generator to the panel. The neutral is required for the 120VAC legs of the 240VAC generator to work properly. Without it (if the neutral is "floating"), your 120VAC reference would have been from the earth ground to a leg instead of a neutral to a leg and the earth-ground-to-generator-neutral voltage offset will skew the voltage from one 120VAC leg to the other 120VAC leg. One leg would be under-volted, the other would be over-volted. And various system loads would cause it to jump around... a lot. A toaster oven on one leg, for example. So make sure the generator neutral is properly connected to the panel. It is not optional. -- Now multiple ground bonding... that's not good, but it shouldn't cause anything to blow up under normal operation unless there is a vast, vast difference in the ground potential across the property. The worst that should happen is that you would have a common-mode voltage differential between earth ground and the frames of various appliances. Not good in of itself, but not usually a high enough voltage to disrupt the electronics in the appliances. More of a shock hazard to someone touching the appliance. Normally this means the single ground-neutral bonding point should be near the home, near the master panel to a ground rod from the primary service panel for the home. That is, you want all the appliance frames to be referenced to the home's natural ground. There should be no current on the ground wiring at all anywhere. -- When ground and neutral are bonded together at the generator AND in the main breaker box for the home, the current-return path for any 120VAC circuits will run over both the neutral wire and the ground wire in the generator cable. This is bad (you aren't supposed to have current flow on the ground conductor), but usually doesn't hurt anything because the current recombines at the generator before going back to the stator. There ARE configurations where the current split can cause problems (based on where the bond is in the generator package), but probably not with your particular generator. However, if the neutral conductor has failed, all the current will return over the ground conductor. The ground conductor might not be the same gauge as the neutral conductor and can melt (in modern code the ground conductor must be the same gauge, but it wasn't always this way). Beyond that, there still may not be any apparent faults. That is, until you disconnect the bond. NOW if you disconnect the ground-neutral bond and the neutral conductor has failed, you have what is called a "floating neutral" situation. There is no low-impedance current return path for 120VAC circuits. Instead, the current will return through the earth... as in through the ground itself. The soil. The dirt. This is a high-impedance path and effectively allows the circuit to "sorta of" operate but also allows the "neutral" point that is supposed to be dead-center between the phases to float in one direction or the other, causing a voltage imbalance between the legs and "neutral". The voltage imbalance then blows up 120VAC appliances that can't handle 240VAC. In addition, the ground potential does not remain the same across distances and that will effect the neutral point as well. -- This brings up the age-old question... do you retain the bond at the generator or not? For a house, you NEVER want to unbond the ground-neutral bond in the main breaker box, so it comes down to whether you willfully retain the bond at the generator or not. Retaining the bond: In some respects appears to be "safer" because you have a solid neutral link even if the neutral fails. But this also creates ground-loops in the earth when the generator is located far away from the house's ground rod (albeit at very low currents). So it is not really desirable to do this in some circumstances, but might be desirable to do this in other circumstances. Removing the bond: Means that your neutral conductor had better be solid. If it is solid this is the safest configuration for a house connection because there won't be any ground loops going over the ground wire or through the soil. But in a free-standing (camping) situation, it is often less safe because the generator frame won't be referenced to the neutral. One thing you should do is not locate the generator too far away from the house's own ground rod. Far enough away so exhaust isn't an issue for people inside the house, but not so far away that there might be a major potential difference in the earth ground between the two points. -Matt
Because of my senior citizen status and several traumatic brain injuries,I tend to be forgetful. I’ve caused damage from loose or poorly connected neutrals also . I have several transformers that I bought to use with the Growatt inverters to form neutrals. I plan to always have one connected to the main panels even if I am connected to grid split phase. I’ve been an electrician for thirty years and have had many calls where poor neutral connections on the service cause intermittent problems. When the house has a fairly large 240 volt load ,the 120 volt legs don’t vary a lot until they turn on a microwave or space heater. I had one situation where the lineman had to be called out the third time before they fixed it. The electronic controls on appliances are very unforgiving for loose neutrals.
Thank you for stating this. A bonded generator should NOT cause this problem. There was another video I found where the user knew the bonding of the generator would NOT cause this issue, instead he started looking for loose neutral and found one in his pre-made generator cord which was the problem.
We had a storm were out of power for 3 weeks in 0 degree weather as a family I had a friend with a non running generator which I fixed and hooked up to run stuff every store in town was out of plugs so I was forced to just stick the wires in to the socket one day the neutral worked itself out and fried the stove circuit board and the fridge in about one minute. It was worth it there was nowhere to go and our pipes would have frozen I got a couple of boards on ebay for $200. Power company even came out to put a new meter tag on without a fuss. 😂😂😂
I have the same Westinghouse generator which I bought to use as a backup to my off grid inverter system. Luckily for me, I hadn't gotten around to hooking it up to our inverter and after seeing this video and reading through the comments, I think I'll be nixing the idea entirely until I do a little more research. Sorry for all the headaches & expense you've suffered from this, but thanks for sharing so the rest of us can be forewarned.
I'm no not trying to be mean, but I'm gonna be blunt. What you're experiencing is a SYMPTOM of a greater disease, not the actual disease. There are other things wrong. Having the chassis bond merely revealed problems, and removing it merely hid them again. While you're absolutely correct that it's important to have only a SINGLE ground/neutral bond, equally important is WHERE that ground/neutral bond happens. You don't get to just get to pick wherever that is, willy nilly. You need to remove the ground/neutral bond from where currently is in one of the houses, and add it at the MAIN panel at the source/service point for the entire electrical system, (which, in your case would be your disconnect panel in the power shed), NOT in some random sub panel in one of your houses. You need to resolve this before you kill a PERSON, and not just some more expensive but replaceable inanimate objects... NEC Article 50 was written in the blood of men, women, and children, alike, my friend. The angry pixies do not discriminate. We've already learned all of these lessons 'the hard way'. There's zero excuse to kill anybody else, (or frankly even fry electrical equipment), at this point. We've known better for a very long time now. Move your ground/neutral bond (yes, that includes a new grounding rod) back to the power shed, RIGHT now. I hate to 'gatekeep' against DIY, but if you don't fully understand it, it's totally worth it to have a competent electrician come out and inspect what you've done, to make sure any other mistakes get caught now, and not discovered the 'hard way'. God forbid you or a member of your family gets killed or injured over an otherwise easily-resolved flaw; and you could've saved thousands of dollars in damaged electronics, at that.
24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2
Or, better yet, stop all that split-phase nonsense😅 One phase, one neutral, one ground. Lost neutral? No power.
This was my exact thought. When I installed my on grid system the AHJ inspector told me there is/ should only be one ground neutral bond and it goes at the first main service connection point (ie his main disconnect panel in the shed) all other service panels should be unbonded but could potentially require separate ground rods at each building .
Get a Chargeverter. Charge the batteries at the generator's max continuous run capacity, then shut it down. That's the most efficient way. If you must use a small generator to run your house, it should be an inverter generator.
You're right. I picked up a chargeverter to charge my two pecron e3600lfp's (in 240v parallel) from a generator while they're in use. The chargeverter is like using a cheat code.
I also live offgrid and have that same EXACT generator model. I don't use it as I had major issues with the quality of the power that it put out. I have an Outback FXR inverter and it would start using the power then after a minute or so it would trip complaining about the power. I tried everything to get that generator to work. After banging my head against the wall with it I ended up buying a Honda EU3000 and programming my inverter to efficiently use the power from it. I configured the inverter for a maximum 20 amps from the generator and a maximum of 18 amps to the charging. This leaves enough headroom that when the fridge or minisplit starts it has enough reserve. I did the propane conversion on it (simple) and bought a exhaust kit for it. The exhaust kit uses solid ducting and not only moves all the exhaust out of my shed but also the air that's used to cool the engine itself. The generator runs perfectly happy and cool inside the shed. The honda uses a small fraction of the fuel that the Westinghouse generator did for the exact same output. It uses about 1/4 gallon of propane per hour how I have it configured. If you want another Westinghouse generator I have one that I would totally give you. They are *THAT* bad!! EDIT: Also I want to join in the chorus of people informing you that you have NOT found the issue. Check every connection to ensure you have not done something simple like not stripping back the wire far enough and having insulation inbetween. You have the CLASSIC symptoms of a floating neutral... As others have said when the neutral is floating the imbalance is dependent on the loads. Don't blow all your stuff again as it truly WILL happen again as you have NOT identified the issue. You need to check every connection between the inverter and the generator! Removing the ground bond can actually make this **WORSE** as when they are bonded you effectively have 2 neutral wires as the ground can be utilized as a neutral in that condition. Please please hire an electrician to come out and inspect your system. You will spend 300 bucks on an electrician or 3000 to repair all your stuff AGAIN.
Most generators don't have a bonded neutral. If you connect a generator to a main service panel that should have a bonded neutral by NEC code then you'll be creating a ground loop which can damage sensitive electronics. I occasionally use my Ford f150 lightning to power my home. The Ford lightning has a bonded neutral it is smart enough to know so when you connect it to a bonded system you get a ground fault error. So all I had to do to resolve this issue was remove the ground wire from the generator backup receptical and everything works fine because my truck is still bonded and my service panel is still bonded but the ground from my truck never gets connect to my service panel via the ground wire. What happened with your bonded neutral generator was you created what known as a ground loop and current was allowed to travel through your ground wire which destroyed your electronics.
@@pstoneking3418 good information. Mine came with a bonded neutral. Until this video, no one even ever addressed the importance of bonding and unbonding depending on the application. I learned that I had to unbond when connecting to the main panel, which was already bonded.
That's not the root problem. If that were the only problem you would not see the destruction you experienced. The double-bonding will only cause current sharing between neutral and ground which is a potential safety issue, but otherwise 100% functionally fine. I suspect you have a disconnected neutral and the generator bond was acting to partially mitigate that problem, obviously insufficiently. The disconnected neutral means it does not stay precisely centered between the 240v hot legs or in other words, unbalanced legs. One leg may be 200v and the other leg 40v with respect to neutral. This will cause all the destruction you described. If you have a large 240v load it can mask the problem by minimizing the imbalance, but that doesn't mean the problem is gone.
You are correct. I wish that he would hire an electrician. The reason he doesn't realize he is wrong is that it works "right now" ........ riiiiiiiiiiiiiight up till he has an imbalanced load. It would be so easy to test too. All he has to do is imbalance them on purpose using something like a space heater and looking at the voltage on the legs. I don't know why people haven't told him of this simple test. Heck even a hair dryer
I had a lady call us to check out an offgrid system someone had installed for her. They had an another contractor install a back up generator. Her husband commissioned the system and shortly after they tried the generator they realized the microwave and dishwasher wouldn’t work. All brand new appliances in a new build. I went out there and checked a few things. I ran the generator, as the problem happened after the generator was run, and the frequency was jumping from 60 to 120 to 600 to 900Hz! Harmonics! I checked the generator output right at the generator and it was 60Hz however in the house i was seeing harmonics. So I followed the line and there was a junction box where the generator circuit came into the house. I opened the PVC box and the blue marretts were almost melted. They were burnt and they were the wrong size - too small. The wires that the marretts were supposed to be holding together weren’t twisted or touching properly and there was arcing. The arcing was varying the frequency and is what damaged the electronics. The customer was very surprised at the problem and shocked that there was almost a fire.
You can't run these generators directly to your inverter. The power is not clean. You have to stabilize the current through a charge verter. You can bypass this if you go with a stand alone generator at the tune of 12 to 20k. This is not a grounding issue. The frequency fluctuates to much from these smaller generators. I've done this, tossed my appliances and started a new. This will repeat itself if he just focuses on grounding and bonds.
Luxpowers manual states the inverter is designed to work with a bonded type generator. Also only one neutral bond should be made, but a your service entrance, in your case at your breaker panel in your power shed.
His EG4 inverter IS a pure sine wave. His best bet is to use a Chargeverter by EG4 to charge the batteries, and move his ground-neutral bond to the power house, not at a farther location. It should be in the first breaker box off of the inverter. Using the Chargeverter instead of the AC input on the EG4 would eliminate any possibility of "dirty electricity" causing problems.
I got around that issue by using a Chargeverter to charge my batteries instead of using the pass through on my inverter (all in one). This also means that "dirty" electricity cannot go through sensitive electronics in my home.
Brother I would spend the 400 and get a chargeverter when u run that Gen's dirty power to be on the safe side. We been off grid for 11 years. This is very good information for others to follow keep it up brother
I far prefer the chargeverter style mechanism for backup power too. Ggenerators are nortoriously bad at responding to major load changes and hybrid inverters typically use the generator input as the master AC when it is active while its internal inverter is just used to charge the DC battery system. With the chargeverter (with a battery charger in general), the generator's output is being converted to DC and only charging the battery while the entire rest of the system runs off the DC. It is best to charge at roughly 50% the generator's max-rated continuous power. Also please read my main posting.... make sure you don't have a floating neutral because that is far more likely to be the actual issue than the ground bonding. -Matt
I'm broke because energy company took most of my social security money .I'm looking at solar panels batteries invertors hybrid type 1 that charges and converts the DC power to 120 AC.i been looking at these ev batteries in getting a 48 volt battery if y'all guys knows this stuff I'm trying to buy 300 to 400 dollars a month to get a solar powered system .panals who's are priced the best and good panals invertors prob a 5000 watt or 7500 watt I'm a disabled retired because my health type 1 diabetes since 1985 it's worked on me .any info guys i appreciate it.this video is good one.
Im with some of the other comments, incorrect bonding is a safety issue that will allow voltage on the bare ground wire. This won't cause equipment to malfunction. Now that i typed that, you should double/triple check your ground points. While bonding should only be in the main panel, every panel needs to be grounded.
"Bonding" , we here in the land of Oz, we have MEN link (Main Earth-Neutral) is done at main board only and for earth leakage systems. ALL gennies come bonded for safety and need modding to open their version of a MEN. This is very well known and why DIY is dangerous and costly..... In your case, the genny is way too small and I bet that its output is dirtty as a spud in the ground. As others mentioned, feed the genny into a battery charger that is rated to correct size to charge the batteries and keep the genny output away from the AC side. They only time I would let a genny near the AC is several things, big diesel spinning a big alternator.
The control boards have ground traces all over them. When there is voltage between that and your neutral you have what is called "potential to ground. Also, if you have circuits that are unbalanced intermittently, you can float your neutral away from zero. Now if you are bonded in an out building and it and your house have all the power drawn from one leg in the house, the voltage drop from the smaller sized neutral will be seen on those control boards. I use an equal sized neutral in homes with ground source heat pumps for that reason. It wouldn't happen so much if all the ground sources were reliable in both or more structures. Many times I've found the refrigerant line to the a/c was the only ground in a house even though they had a ground rod. A ground rod is not to be the primary ground for a residence. It is an alternate. If you build with a basement, bond some of the rebar in the uphill side of the house. This is a better ground by far. In my current home, I welded several pieces together. I had a lightning strike when I was working on the panel. The rod the power company laid in the trench created steam and came out of the ground with so much force that the transformer flipped over. My ground rods were not hooked up yet. There was so much current on the #4 ground wire to the foundation that it turned a light pink like it was cleaned with acid. It must have gotten hot. The panel got new lugs and busses to save labor.
Please read the comments. There are two issues here. 1st is that the generator has horrible THD @ 25+. Get an inverter generator or use an EG4 Chargeverter to charge the batteries with the dirty generator. 2nd is the neutral issue. There are some correct explanations and some that aren’t correct. Removing the neutral bond from the generator is the correct call but most likely your issue is from a floating neutral as per many comments. To verify this you can call an electrical provider and tell them your lights are flickering and an electrician told you that your transformer has a loose neutral- they will have a bucket truck dispatched in seconds. I now you’re off grid but this is an example.
Thank you for the comments. I do appreciate it however, there are no floating neutrals in the entire system. There is also a proper earth ground, and as I mentioned in the video, there is only one bonding in one panel closest to the source and since the correction in the video I have used the generator several times without one issue.
@@hisnaturefarmI understand what you are saying but I’m not sure you understand the definition of floating neutral. I’m copy pasting this but google it for more info. -A “floating” neutral occurs when the connection to the ground breaks or becomes loose, which causes the neutral bar to “float.” This can happen in your panel or between the utility and your electric panel. It can be caused by a mechanical issue or other issues like rust or corrosion. It’s a serious issue because the neutral balances voltage across the two phases. In a floating neutral situation, the difference between the phases remains 240V, but the 0V reference (the neutral) no longer exists. This knocks voltage out of balance, so some appliances may draw more voltage than they should while others draw less. You might notice flickering lights. In a severe case, an outlet could malfunction and could be energized with the full 240V, which can damage devices and pose a shock or fire hazard.
He could control the transient issues by plugging in some large scale varistors (cheap solution) - surge protectors, Bowthorpe specialize in these. But that won't solve the THD problem.
@@dalltexis this what causes odd low voltage readings from neutral to ground? And one other question issue. Bonding all panels in the building wouldn't be an issue if the source of power wasn't bonded, am I correct? I'm assuming this because the neutral and the ground are the same parallel circut throughout the building, right? I appreciate any feedback.
Kudos on your sharing your newfound wisdom. More incentive for me to try to keep things simple. I don't attach anything to my home. I'd rather have it portable and dethatched, like the EcoFlow.
While double bonds are a safety issue and should be fixed, they're *NOT* the cause of all your damaged circuit boards. Cheap contractor generators have poor voltage regulation, and when undersized and charging an inverter with poor (or no) power factor correction, the waveform distorts massively. Borrow an oscilloscope and watch the voltage waveform when you're charging - I'll bet you a steak dinner that you see "devils horns" - the waveform distorts into three spikes - an an early and late harmonic, and the center of the waveform shoots up to nearly double the nominal voltage. It's that spike that's taking out your electronics. At 9.5kW, that generator is woefully undersized for your loads and inverter. Remember, when your system is connected to the generator, the genny has to power the loads first, and only after they're satisfied can the remainder go to battery charging. I'm guessing here, but with four or five minisplits I'm betting your baseload is around 3-4kW, plus more for starting surges. If that's in the ballpark, then only half your generator's output is available for charging, on an 18kW inverter. Unless you ramp back the charging way way back, your generator is overloaded and into a non-pfc charger it's going to distort worse than your neighbor's kid's boombox at a pool party kegger.
The reason for only a single bonding is to ensure there is only one path for current on the ground to the neutral. There should never be current on the ground (this would be a fault), so under normal circumstances this does not matter. When it matters is when there IS current on the ground, this could potentially allow current to bypass a safety causing injury or fire. I would agree with many of the comments on here that the output of your generator is likely dirty/noisy causing improper voltage/frequency/electrical noise in your system. Digital electronics hate noisy power. Using your generator to charge your batteries would be the best way to avoid this.
Thanks for this video. The topic is important. The comments about floating neutral seem to have the most merit, but it's fabulous to have this discussion.
Your bonding info is correct however the issue you have with generator does not seem like a bonding issue. The ground bolt on the generator is used to ground the chassis to earth ground and since you did not its not grounded and being on a wooded pallet it’s isolated. By removing the ground connection within the generator wiring you are risking your safety. The ground is a non current carrying conductor under normal conditions and is used to ground equipment in case of short.
@ Yes with 4 wire cable / connector (hot,hot,neutral and ground) assuming the ground is connected in the cable your grounding will be done at your main panel through the cable if you don’t use the ground lug on the generator. Since you removed the jumper that grounds the chassis it will be ungrounded. get an ohm meter and check continuity from ground on cable and generator chassis to verify When you are checking for grounding with ohm meter check reference from generator stator and generator frame. The stator and engine are usually mounted on rubber shocks for vibration which will also make them electrically isolated. The jumper you removed may have been for grounding due to them being isolated.
Hi, somewhat related - I hope people can comment on my situation. I'm only a self-taught electrician. I converted a big Connex shipping container into a shop. I ran the two hots and neutral to a breaker panel in the Connex. I also connected the skin of the Conex to a ground wire and ground rod. I was told I should not do this. Your opinions, please. I figure I did not want to get electrocuted if a power tool shorts out in the shop, or if by some remote chance a lightning strike should hit the Conex. And I did not think it mattered as the Conex is touching the ground anyway. Am I causing the potential for unsafe ground loops? I do not have the neutral and ground connected together anywhere in the Conex.
You have a bad neutral on a 240 circuit causing a back feed of 240 on a 120 circuit. Check ALL YOUR NEUTRALS. Or you crossed your phasing somewhere. Somehow you are backfeeding the other phase into a neutral.
@Websurf-s3eI think he is still going to have the problem even with the generator bond removed. It could even make the problem worse if power was flowing on the ground to the neutral in the generator. Now the power has no where to go. I think it’s time for him to call a professional or someone more experienced. Also the main system bond should be at the first means of disconnect not all these way at his second house.
When you lose your neutral the voltage on the two hot legs will go all wonky, one HIGH and one LOW, they will still be 240 across each other but back to neutral they will be stupid, and your equipment is ALL in pearl at that point, and in my case it always happened at the meter base, and if you call the utility about it they will get there ASAP because it is a BIG DEAL!! Once they finally got the connections fixed in their box my issues have so far gone away here.
@@dannydivine7699I have an older house that uses 3 wires for the 240v circuits. 2 of them are hot, the other is ground, but no neutral. I have no issues and I don't know if a neutral is needed in that case. Is this correct? This is the case for my water heater, ac system, dryer and over and stove.
@@vegasguy73 Where is this house?? In the United States "Normal" residential split phase power does not use a neutral in a 240 volt appliance. And I say that with "Caveats" that if you don't have a reasonable understanding of your appliances and their respective power requirements, "DO NOT GO POKING AROUND YOURSELF" if they are working leave them alone, there are lots of possible ways to screw up with electricity, and it can be a VERY UNFORGIVING TEACHER!! Be CAREFUL!!!
I use my generator on my solar system occasionally. It substitutes for the grid when it's out. So the way that works is that the generator output feeds into your inverter / charger . When your inverter senses the input voltage, it has to sync the inverter output with the generator output This circuitry ensures that the frequency and sine wave match that of the generator. If it doesn't, the inverter won't allow the generator to connect. If you're powering sensitive electronic circuitry directly with your generator, you should be sure your generator output frequency is 59- 61 hz. If it isn't, there's a good chance your sensitive electronics will be destroyed. The generator AVR probably needs to be replaced. If you're going to use your generator to directly power your sensitive electronics, you should purchase what's known as an inverter generator. These contain an electronic inverter which ensures a clean stable 60 hz frequency.
I use a Chargeverter and I never use the charging capabilities of my inverter charger. This avoids powering the house loads by the generator while charging the batteries. To my way of thinking, this solves some problems with this off grid solar grounding question. I've run my off grid solar system for 6 years with no grounding on the system at all. If I was on grid I would use the typical grounding system required with, as you say, only one bonding point in the system. Thanks for the video.
I use a Outback FXR inverter with a Honda EU3000 generator. I configured the inverter with a current cap of 20 amps from the generator and a charging current max of 18 amps. The way the outback works it reduces the charging current if there isn't enough power "budget" from the generator. It works FLAWLESSLY!! When I turn on a big appliance like the Microwave the charging current drops INSTANTLY. When the microwave shuts off you hear the generator slow down then ramp back up as it increases the charging back to its previous level. On your subject of grounding. I have what I call a "weak ground" in my system for the SOLE purpose of discharging static electricity. Prior to this "static ground" when I ran the vacuum it would cause a massive static buildup in the house that can damage things very easily. It was so bad that the dogs hair would stand up. Installing this ground cured the issue. We live next to a river and the soil is only 2-3 foot deep and under it is 1 solid sheet of rock that covers everywhere I've ever dug a hole. So the ground rod goes in at an extreme angle into the ground to get as much as I could. I actually prefer it this way because if lightning were to ever hit close to the house I don't want my ground to be the path in. The solar panels are on wood racks (ungrounded) so other than that static ground the entire system is floating. If I were you with winter coming I would consider something similar. You won't believe the difference in your house.
On the topic of powering the house loads off the generator.... If you don't use the power directly from the generator you have to convert it to DC at a loss then convert it back to AC at a loss. So you are wasting fuel for no good reason. You are frankly better off to slow your charging down during those periods to avoid these conversion losses. When I run a load that is beyond what my generator can do the inverter actually pitches in to help in a interactive mode. I can literally pull 100% of the generator output + 100% of the inverter output combined. I don't know anything about your inverter however you should be able to configure yours to do the same exact thing. Just my 2cents (twice)
@@dersteer Since most generators put out "dirty" electricity, and the inverter he has puts out Pure Sine Wave electricity, it is better to just use the generator to charge the battery bank, and only use the inverter to power his loads, since his will power his whole house with no problems. The only time he will need to use the generator, if his solar system is enough, is if there is heavy clouds, so it would be better to do things this way. His EG4 inverter would send power directly through to his house PLUS try to charge his battery bank, (so there is no DC to AC and back power loss), thus he would need to double the size of his generator to get enough power for both. It sounds to me like you might have an older inverter. Like others above have stated, he would be best served to get an EG4 Chargeverter, which can be set to charge from zero to 100 Amps at a wide variety of Voltages, to charge up his battery bank when there isn't enough sun.
@@Tumbleweed5150 Thats the least efficient way. The losses are running everything inside the house while you are charging. Everything running inside the house requires AC to DC then from DC to AC. The chargeverter is simply the least efficient way of doing it. I'll give you an example. My mini split requires 1200 watts to run and I commonly run the generator to charge the system + run the mini split at the same time. My inverter is super smart and not only handles all this on its own but can also supplement the generator power with inverter power. If *ALL* you were doing is charging and you don't have any loads (kinda unlikely if offgrid) then the chargeverter is fine. Also if you are adding addition chargers for increased rate the chargeverter could be alright. The most efficient is to use the actual power from the generator directly if you can without any conversions. If you aren't truly offgrid none of this matters however I have to pay for the fuel constantly because I'm 2 miles from the nearest power line so efficiency is paramount ot me.
the charging portion on inverters also goes bad with time... another reason not to use it. cause you can end up needing a new inverter in the dead of winter.
thank you very much!!!! this is probably the most helpful video I have ever seen because I have the same problem but luckily I have not connected my generator to my house yet. i too am not an electrical whiz and have been very confused for long time. I am also going to buy the same products from the same folks that you did because of their outstanding customer service
however I read some of the feedback comments which quickly went over my head. therefore I am sending this information to my electrician to make sure that my house breaker box and my generator are properly connected
Be careful, on that Westinghouse generator. I had to use it while getting a lot of rain. The main toggle switch got wet since they’re not waterproof, so it burnt out and cut all power off to this. I bought a pack of 2 waterproof on/off switch. Thanks for this video. I’m going to double check all my stuff.
Would the gridboss help with this, to prevent damage? THANK YOU! much needed info. I have been looking to get an EG4 Hybrid system. Thank you for blessing my day, with this knowledge and advice.
If you do, don't use the generator input. Get the EG4 Chargeverter to charge your battery bank from the generator. This will save a lot of head-aches. Also, make sure that your Neutral-Ground bond is in a breaker box right off the panel....UNLESS you are using the hybrid as a grid-tie inverter. In THAT case, your house breaker box will already have the neutral-ground bond.
My 24 volt Aims inverter charger is Bonded. Inside. And I just bought the same Generator. I guess I need to unbound the Generator or the Inverter Charger ??
You might have just saved me about $5000 or more. I literally have that generator and I'm setting up that and starting to build a Solar system tomorrow. This is an old farmhouse and With different buildings I need to check the bonding everywhere. I can't thank you enough.
If you are going with EG products, PLEASE just get the Chargeverter. So much safer and why take a chance. That $500 would have also saved him a fortune. We are not going to hook any generator directly to our inverter. We are having this installed instead. Its just not worth taking the chance. Other than that I LOVE all my EG products. They just work. I have his same inverter and its is awesome sauce off grid or on.
@@forgeteverythingyouknow5413 I do understand all of that but its still just not worth it to me. Years of boondocking for dog shows so we've used a lot of different generators and I rather just have peace of mind plus it means I don't have to pay for that inverter generator. I can use any of them which is also nice since we have a small collection now. LOL. But I feel like the chargeverter just prevents several potential problems. I am not an electrician but kind of have to agree with many of the other responses that there is some other secondary issue happening. And its fine until it isn't. I learned some hard lessons myself.
This is not a bonding issue. Double bonding does NOT cause a short! #1. Throw that junk generator away! If you keep it, rebond that neutral so you don't die when you touch the frame in the rain! Westinghouse is about as low quality as you can get. The cheapest harbor freight generator is higher quality! You spent all that money on solar and went cheap on the generator. That don't make no sense! #2. Unhook your generator connections from your inverter. I don't care what eg4 says, its obviously wrong. Completely isolate your generator from the solar inverter. Use a transfer switch to run power from a quality whole house generator like a Generac, Kohler, or Cummins unit. #3. Use a stand alone charger off the generator side of the transfer switch to charge your batteries. Your eg4 has a built in split phase transformer causing a floating neutral/hot neutral situation backfeeding from the generator connection. THAT IS YOUR WHOLE PROBLEM My farm runs off 36Kw of panels through four 5Kw growatts in parallel with 3 separate 5Kw auto transformers. I have 9600ah battery backup. I use a 22Kw generac standby generator with an automatic transfer switch. I have extensive electrical experience working as an electrician for the last 30 years. I ran into the dilemma you have of wanting to use a back up generator to run my house and charge the solar batteries on bad sun or stormy days. After running tests and metering out the lines I found it best to separate out the two systems due to neutral problems. As stated in many other replies- If you do not know what you are doing, hire an electrician! Blown circuit boards and wasting money is the best case scenario for the mistakes in your system. I hope you get it sorted out.
Thanks for your reply, but here’s the situation ever since I disconnected the double bond I never have had an issue again, but prior to this change. I blew stuff every last time I turned the generator on. Now it’s been working perfectly. All the neutrals are good, All the earth grounds are good and believe it or not. I got a bit of experience with electrical maybe not so much with solar but with everything else so let’s call it a fluke of the universe. You have to also look at what was blowing, and it was circuit boards that cannot tolerate much fluctuation in voltage and therefore, double bond could absolutely cause this problem.
@@hisnaturefarm It is interesting that you no longer have the problem, BUT, you also blew up a bunch of stuff and had to replace stuff right? So maybe something else was ground faulting somewhere...?
I would suggest that you look into installing some Bifacial panels as a car port or something similar. These will obviously boost your current production, which you might or might not need in sunnier times, but it will definitely help the production in cloudy and on rainy days. I have 20 x Jinko 560w Bifacials and am blown away what they are producing under inclement conditions. I would also agree with just using any kind of generator to charge batteries as much as possible for obvious reasons.
I doubt this was the issue. It is not “short circuit” to have it bonded it in two places Thousands of people plug these generators into their homes that are bonded The problem that I suspect is not having clean sinusoidal wave out of that generator. These generators can have up to 25% THD That would make inductive loads like AC compressors struggle and burn
Did Ground/bond there Generator OR you put them in the same grounding rod? You need to ground rod the Equipment at least 8-10 feet from the Grounding ROD from the generator..
Generator when they get loaded up will shift frequency and voltage unless they are imverter generators. It's worth the extra money for the inverter generator. I think some of the inverter generators have a switch to set them as unbonded output.
My outback fxr inverter wouldn't even accept the power from my Westinghouse generator **EXACTLY** like his. It would attempt to use it and run for anywhere from 30 seconds to a few minutes then the inverter would trip off complaining of the power quality coming from it. I left a comment for him stating that I would give him this generator as its totally useless to me. It is currently sitting in a shipping container practically brand new. By the time I figured out the issue the return period had elapsed. I replaced it with a EU3000 and haven't ever had another issue!
I have a Duramax generator that is not bonded. I connected the generator to the house but shut my solar off when running and had no issues I also have an ups with pure sine wave to my sensitive electronics. If I have to use my generator for power tools I made a bonding plug the the neutral and ground are temporary bonded then when done I remove bonding plug.
With respect, I don't believe that your issue is (only) due to dual bonding in the wrong location (ie another panel). You need another issue for that to ever cause a problem, such as a really bad ground fault. In other words, even if you bond to another panel by accident, you will not have an issue with blowing control boards etc unless there is some other issue which would result in power backfeeding thru the circuit in the first place. Are you sure that your generator was not generating more voltage than nominal? Are you sure that the generator transfer switch is working properly? Are there any "multiwire" circuits in the house where there is a shared neutral? There are many other possible issues, but "bonding" would not cause that issue... unless you got hit by lightning or had a serious ground fault somewhere else in the system.
Thanks for this information. I am also having trouble getting my mpp solar pip 5048gk inverter to take power from my generator. I'll try to see if it's the same problem I have, I've thought it's the dirty current that turns the inverter off. We have grounding connected from the AC side to the inverter from the public power plant and when we drive off grid there will still be grounding connected to the inverter. I suspect that could be the error I'm experiencing. Greetings from Denmark
Yeah, I do notice that inverters are real fickle and very different and how they work for example, this 18 K first services the loads then it will charge the batteries. Which I really don’t like, but there’s no way to change it. The only way is using chargeverter. Thanks for your comment.
@@hisnaturefarm On your 18K under charge settings set up a battery charge priority time where you top off the batteries first then excess PV goes to the loads. You can also set how much power to allocate during battery priority mode in that section. I'm on grid with the 18kPV so we may be talking about two different things...
I'll agree to the fact that there should be only one bond on the system. However, I believe that bond should be in your inverter as it's your main power source. Bonding it at the house will take everything upstream, including the second house, have to feed the ground/neutral back to the current house for bonding. NEC states it should be at the first disconnect past the power source. Aka at or just beyond the inverter.
There must be more to this. Ground and neutral should only be connected at one place for code, but that should mean that they are the same and are already "shorted". Current does flow back down the neutral on a 120v circuit or an unbalanced 240v circuit, but it's still going to ground somewhere. I'm not seeing how all these problem can be caused by double bonding. I have seen in a mobile home were the panel on the pole was bonded and the panel in the home was bonded for years, and nothing ever happened. The generator must be causing some other effect also.
Truly I don't know much about gens as my setup is purely solar. But, I have seen some info getting out there about the difference. THANK YOU for being honest in this and putting great detailed info out to help us all who may want to use a generator one day. I will say going into entry of video I was thinking it was going to be something like you was using a non inverter generator and that was what was causing all the issues. I got to be honest. I have a old school 2000 watt old coleman gen. And that was going to be a little back up if ever needed. But, I am so concerned about using it now not being inverter gen. I just have not connected it up.
Consider the inverter shed as as if it is a transformer from the power company for safety. With a transformer the neutral is bonded to the ground at the pole. The neutral is also bonded to the ground at your house, again for safety. What you are describing is a floating neutral in the house. A floating neutral allows the voltage on one side of your 240 volt feed to increase above 120 volts depending on how well your 120 volt circuits are balanced. Check to see you have a ground rod to the ground buss in the house and that the neutral is bonded to the ground bus. Four wire circuits should only be used in each building, not between buildings. Hope this helps.
Yes it is improper to have a double bond system. It should be bonded at your main panel all other sub panels grounds and neutral must be separated. In this case the generator bond should be removed when connect to the house. But important when the gen is used as a stand alone the bond should be reconnected to prevent a shock hazarded. As for destroying all of your electronics I do not see how a double bond system could cause this. The problem with a double bonded system is that some of the neutral current will flow through both the ground and the neutral wire between the two bonds. This is not proper but I do not see how this should destroy your electronics. What does destroy the electronics is not the bonds but what is called harmonic distortion. This is complex subject to explain but the sine wave that the generator produces is not pure as a result of this distortion it can cause very large currents to flow. This current is different than the regular AC current that flows at 60 Hz. These harmonic currents operate at a much higher frequency than the 60 Hz current. To explain this in layman's terms you can think of this current as very brief surges of current that a typical AC amp meter can not register. These high current surges can become very high and can burn out sensitive electronics . If the current is high enough it can burn out regular motors and even cause heating in the wiring. What you need is a good inverter generator which produce pure AC. From what I can see in the video I think your gen is a standard and is not an inverter type. Hope this helps.
Hi Jim, my first ti?e watching your channel. I'm curious if you have surge protection anywhere in your house(s), or maybe only the inverters has it internally?
Great question, I do not have surge protection just yet. I have been doing some research. The main thing I am learning is that they have protection from EMPs and lightning strikes. I am planning of getting one and doing a video on it. Thanks for commenting!
get a charger. generators can surge or provide all sorts of nasty electricity. lots of things are computerized; which are very sensitive. get a charger, which then becomes your sacrificial piece; dump it into your batteries; yes you loose 10-20% efficiency but your protected. after the charger, your batteries will act as a buffer; dc & batteries don't care much about dirt electricity and will eat it all up no problem. fixing your ground issue doesnt fix the inherint problem with generators; but pumping it into dc does. when a part on generators fail, they can produce some real nasty stuff. 50hz, 70hz, unstable hz, unstable voltage, overvoltage, undervoltage, grounding fixes none of that.
Been there, done that. Luckily it only cost me two surge suppressor power strips and scorch spots on some carpeting. I was bonded at the generator, the barn and at the house. This is a very common and dangerous mistake.
I'm here in Middle TN as well south of Columbia. I don't live in a house but a 5th wheel RV in a campground and I needed backup power for when shore power goes down. Because of all the sensitive electronics in the RV, I was told to stay away from regular high output generators because they will destroy everything. So I ended up with a low output Westinghouse i4500DF inverter generator which runs on both gasoline and propane that I've used three times now since moving here two years ago and I've had no issues whatsoever with any of my electronic systems. I wanted to buy a 9000-12000 watt regular generator and now I'm glad I didn't. The generator I bought is limited to 30-amp / 120vac / 4500 watt so I have to carefully chose what items to run when on generator power. Eventually I will buy a larger 50-amp / 240vac inverter generator but they are very expensive. I was told the Westinghouse and Onan inverter generators are one and the same, and if I buy a second unit of equal wattage, I have a pairing cable to join them together to make 50-amp / 240vac / 9000 watts which will be more than enough to power my whole RV as if it were on shore power. As my electric panel in the RV is unbonded, it means whatever source my power comes from must be bonded be it shore or generator power. I have a protection system between shore power and RV which verifies everything is properly wired which indicates with three green lights.
If I have the generator shut-off and not connected to anything, and connect a multi-meter (set to test continuity) between the ground and neutral on the plug from the generator, the meter should show continuity if the generator is bonded and no continuity if the bond has already been broken? I am guessing that the bonding terminal on the panel is for connecting to a ground rod or some other means of establishing an earth ground? Maybe used at a major construction site but only supplying individual tools via extension cords?
4 things, 1, There are reasons you don't want other panels bonded, usually to prevent ground loops and to lessen lightning voltage potential, but I seriously doubt your bonded generator caused your issue. 2, I also agree with others, it sounds more like you have an open neutral causing your issue. 3, as several others have stated, I NEVER use one of the basic/cheap generators to run ANYTHING that has electronics in it. I have one of the Honda 2200 inverter units for smaller things, and I have a 10kw unit that is rated for clean power for electronics. In the last 30 years, NEVER blew up anything, and it has been hooked to multiple houses and run many items with electronics. 4, there is no such thing as a hot water heater!
You got me thinking, what about that the sine wave from the line, is typically in sync with the solar panels mini inverters. And maybe not synced to the generator? Could be a big problem.
Great video and reminder. Like you we're off grid and our system is complicated enough that this could have bitten us. I don't have a great handle on AC electricity at all, but in our system we have an inverter and solar and it feeds 230V AC power to two different locations on the property. Each location has an Autotransformer and a C/B panel and its own bond. So despite the AC power coming from one single inverter, it's bonded in two separate locations. We also have a backup generator and I think we're going to put in a third bond there, because that generator feeds an EG4 Chargeverter which converts the generator's AC power into DC power which feeds directly into the battery bus. Since it doesn't directly tie into the AC system, it's treated like a stand alone generator. This stuff is complicated and I certainly don't have a great grasp of it.
2:20 I would check your 3 wires that are hot/hot/neutral and make sure they are hooked up correctly. They all 3 have yellow stripe and would be very easy to mix up. They should be identified as hot, the yellow stripe identifies the wire as neutral, but also just makes it easy to mix up and land a hot on the neutral terminal. Please check those wires.
Is not bonding issue, is floating neutral, multiple bounding is only problem for RCD, you can have multiple bonding if you know how to do it right ;-) For shure is not generator problem...
You are correct. Man I love all you guys stepping up even though you can read he doesn't believe it. His issue went away because he hasn't found the right combination of appliances to cause the issue again.
I’m living off grid and I’ve found inverter generators have the lowest THD and the cleanest sine wave. The power head type are best used for corded tool construction use.
So sorry for your expensive lesson, and thank you so much for sharing. The complexity of grounding and bonding---especially for lightning protection---is something that is still fiercely debated in off-grid electrical systems. The old Home Power magazine archive (free with username and password) has a great regular column called Code Corner which has helped me sort through the 'noise.' BTW, my old genset has only the earth symbol (no placard) as shown on your genset at the ground/ earth lug. The user manual states in the section "Electrical Precautions: ...2. The Generator must be properly earth-grounded by a licensed electrician...". That's a pretty straight forward statement. However, there's this statement in the section "GROUNDING THE GENERATOR 1. NOTE: ...(Generators without a permanent installation may not need to be grounded, check local codes and ordinances.)... 2. Connect a #6 AWG grounding wire (not included) from the Grounding Point on the front panel to a grounding rod (not included) that has been driven at least 24 inches deep into the earth..." That Note creates ambiguity even in unbonded gensets. As far as I know, you can't have too many earth grounds in a system as long as they are upstream from the neutral bonding 'jumper'. Unless I'm hooking up my genst ground conductor to my house right at the service entrance from the grid (where an earth-ground rod is located), I wouldn't hesitate to run my ground wire from the earth-ground lug on the genset to a new earth-ground rod right next to the genset. I might be tempted to plug a power tool into one of the sockets if I'm working near the genset for any random reason.
This looks like a “FLOATING NUTRAL” problem in the system. If the Earth ground is not sufficient, the loads on both sides will fluctuate causing one side to brown out and the other side to spike. This is why stuff is burning up. Adding an amateur radio grounding system at your master load distribution panel would solve this issue.
You're generator was never really grounded in the first place, except whatever current could flow through the frame and probably rubber feet to the pad, then maybe to dirt. Having a neutral ground bond that far away from the actual neutral ground bond can't be a good thing. I agree with everyone here. It shouldn't have been a problem except for ground loopback issues. Why isn't the main ground neutral bond at point source where it should be? None of us are there, even with the video and explanation, more onsite testing and examination by a certified quality electrician should be considered.
I have had plenty of generator problems. My inverter for unknown reason can only accept power through grid port, my fridge freezer surge would under /over hrz, turned off all surge items, lower charge to 85A , use 1600w, 6600w from a 9kw steady 60.3 hrz at 119.8 to 120.1v. I would recommend no surges using a gen while charging at high rates over 70A. Glad I didn't go through this bonding issue, sorry thanks for sharing.
A single ground neutral bond is NEC code. Usually 2 ground neutral bonds just leave part of the circuits unprotected from fault. Not sure what's going on in your place. FYI to whomever, the EG4 6500ex has a bonding screw inside, the 6000xp has a bond by software configuration so you would need to read the manual to make sure what mode your bond is in. Not sure about 12k or 18k, but probably software driven bond. Also not all generatora are ground neutral bonded out of the box. My older Honda EU6500i came unbonded, probably lucky for me. I'm not off grid and my bond is in my main house panel. I'm also using my generator to charge the batteries in the event I dont have sun and no, you dont have to have a chargeverter, but you'll need to do your due diligence in your situation. I configured the amount of power allowed out from my generator by my 6000ex's. if more demand is needed, it'll pull from battery secondary. It's untrue that a 12k generator is mandatory to connect to the gen breaker input as long as the current is configured correctly.
with your apparent knowledge (or major lack there of) you should get a real electrician to help you and do it right. Bonding is not the problem. Bonding keeps YOU from getting shocked. my system is grounded (with a ground stake) and bonded at the genset it is also the same way at the inverter output. what it sounds like to me is that you have a floating neutral (not connected) or that the cycles or volts or both are not within limits. ( like trying to use modified sign wave on new electronics , they go poof and let all the magic smoke out). you have already spent more in repair costs than if you would have had a electrician come out. also if they fired it up and blew everything than they would pay to fix. good luck
Doesn't Europe use 230 Volts? In this case the "neutral" is what we would call Line 2, while the "hot" is line 1. Our "Neutral" is to provide the 120 Volts our houses use besides the occasional 240 Volt dryer/stove, etc. This is why our generators have the neutral to ground bond, while yours don't. The Bonding to ground of our Neutral gives a base for the sine wave. One leg or line, say Hot, is where the sine wave is 120 Volts "above" Neutral, and the other leg or line, say Line 2, is 120 Volts "below" neutral. Having the ground to neutral bond keeps the Neutral from "wandering". I have an off- grid system that worked great until we had a super-heavy rain storm without the ground-neutral bond. It took out many of the other off-grid inverters in our off-grid community. Mine seemed to work fine, but when I plugged in a tester, the Hot/Neutral fault light came on. I shut down my system and put in the bond in my main breaker box. Once I restarted my system everything was fine. Most folks here don't use the ground for their cheap inverters, which is one reason they failed. My next door neighbor and I both had our more expensive systems grounded. (He had the same problem, by the way.)
You are also not done. You still need to find where there is a transformer or doorbell that has one leg grounded to neutral. You mentioned Rheem. They used to always ground one side of the transformer which makes the 24 vac.
What's very weird is i saw this type of video ahead of time and unbonded my generator and when I ran it I blew my emp and other devices and thought what the heck is going on, so I put the generator back to the way it was and no problem.
I emailed the company directly and they said you need an inverter generator. It doesn't like dirty open cage power and then it tries to shut off the power for safety which lowers the voltage and kills your stuff on top of your bonded issue. I'm on 874 hrs on my harbor freight inverter genny. It was all I was able to get in the town the day I found out and it was cloudy for days so we needed power, oh and family was visiting. Turns out it's a good gen. Note: The 1st panel should be bonded, all others fed off the main panel are sub panels requiring non bonded, just remove the screw in the panel. Note if you want to just use 1 gallon of gas a night the aims 24v/48v charger will run off the costco yamaha $500 2200w genny. Both are great and will get you through a night or few days with only 1 gallon for 8hrs. If I need a lot of power charging (30 amps) I run the big inverter gen.
Use an EG4 chargeverter to charge your batteries when using a generator, rather than running the generator straight to the inverter. Especially important if off-grid.
Thank you so much for covering this issue! Fortunately, I didn’t have all that problem because I searched and searched and searched before I actually hooked it up. I noticed just about all the videos, well as a matter of fact all the videos I watched about hooking up the generator to the main panel Never mentioned unbonding the generator. So sorry you had all those problems. I’m sure it was quite an expensive lesson. But thank you so much for providing this video. I’m glad someone out there finally saw the need to post this very important information. I liked and subbed! Cheers from Dave over at Dabomb Smokes!😎✌️
@@hisnaturefarm I use one with a smallish generator, and it works great! The main thing I like about it is that you can adjust both Voltage and Amperage to make it work easily with most generators above a certain size. (It can also work to charge up a 36 Volt golf cart system, but that's another story). It also cleans up the electricity from "dirty power" generator outputs to make sure the batteries are getting clean electricity, and your inverter doesn't have to work overtime trying to power your house plus charge the battery bank.
I think he's right. While you havent had an issue yet, double, triple, or even a hundred bonds will not cause things to blow. This is the classic floating neutral issue that kills 120v items. Sounds like you're neutral wire is loose somewhere between the gen and the house. To test for this turn off all your breakers. Then just turn on a few outlet circuits that are all on the same 120v leg and load it up with space heaters, heat gun, hair dryers and whatever you got. Have someone monitor the voltage while you wiggle the neutral connections at the gen, any plugs, at the panel and whatever else its connected. If you see the voltage drop that means that missing voltage has shifted over to the other leg. That's what kills things. 240 is split in half by the neutral. If one leg is pulled down to say 50 then you've got 190 on the other and things pop @@hisnaturefarm
@@hisnaturefarm Just because your toothache went away doesn't mean you're cavity-free. You either have an intermittent ground loop, or something in your setup is sending 240v across a single phase somewhere and frying your 120v electronics, or both. I bet in your testing you turned off a breaker or unplugged a 240v to 120v RV plug somewhere and haven't reconnected either of them yet. You may want to pay an electrician for an inspection before winter comes and you're frozen out, or you start a melty wire fire somewhere.
OK, I agree, you're not good with electricity. Thousands of dollars of sensitive electronics that require low THD current running on a cheap non inverter generator, not once, but twice. That generator has only
Just found your channel and love the useful info and the way you present. I have to tell you though the obnoxious mouse click sound every time you add text is really annoying. It may seem cute but has made me leave some of the vids. Other than sound effects keep up the great work
EG4 says not to hook up a portable generator to this inverter. The GEN part of these inverters is for a whole house generator like a Generac or similar. The power from portable generators is too trashy. This is exactly why EG4 made the Chargeverter.
Bonding is ONLY at the main panel!! If you bond after that in the sub-panels, you are risking major electrocution. Grounding wire and neutral needs to remain separate after the main panel!
You created an earth loop with two or more bonding points. You also probably have other load problems as well that you discover as you change loads over time. It might be time to do an electricians course or get a professional contractor to set things up for you. There's a reason for these professionals. You just discovered one small gotcha. The next hidden gotcha which will take a few years for you to figure out by the time it raises its ugly head is electrochemical corrosion where you use fasteners and clamps with dissimilar metals and rain / damp conditions over many years. Lots of other hidden gothchas. BTW your general wiring harnesses and distribution boards are works of art. Beautiful, you should be proud. Im impressed with the care you've put into your wiring setup. Minor glitches your finding. You'll solve them and end up with a great system. Get a professional electrician to sort out your system.
Note: make sure your Generator is a clean sign wave Generator, because there are dirty sign wave Generators that destroy delicate electronic s! Inverter Generators are the safest to use!
Not a bonding issue, its a floating neutral issue, you may not have had any issues giving you the thought that you fixed it, but its still a floating neutral issue.
Everything is speculation because we are missing a lot of information. There are several ways to hook up a generator with several different bonding options. It matters what configuration is used for where the bonding should happen. Just off what information was given, I suspect an issue elsewhere. Was a transfer switch being used?
I don't think it's a ground bonding fault. While it's true that only one grounding star point should exist it's usually no problem to have more than one unless the bond is behind a RCD which will trigger the RCD. Hooking up a generator to a solar inverter isn't always a good idea unless the inverter is made for generator operation like e.g. the Victron inverters. The best idea might be to have a buffer battery and charge that from the generator in a seperate AC circuit which just powers the charger. This will allow for a smaller more efficient generator and avoid "dirty" generstor AC power entering sensitive devices in your house.
Blowing all that stuff with a 240VAC feed from the generator sounds more like a floating neutral and less like a ground-bonding issue. Are you mistaking the neutral for the ground? The bonding may have provided a partial/poor current return path through the ground back to the generator but that shouldn't have blown up anything if the neutral was properly connected from the generator to the panel.
The neutral is required for the 120VAC legs of the 240VAC generator to work properly. Without it (if the neutral is "floating"), your 120VAC reference would have been from the earth ground to a leg instead of a neutral to a leg and the earth-ground-to-generator-neutral voltage offset will skew the voltage from one 120VAC leg to the other 120VAC leg. One leg would be under-volted, the other would be over-volted. And various system loads would cause it to jump around... a lot. A toaster oven on one leg, for example.
So make sure the generator neutral is properly connected to the panel. It is not optional.
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Now multiple ground bonding... that's not good, but it shouldn't cause anything to blow up under normal operation unless there is a vast, vast difference in the ground potential across the property. The worst that should happen is that you would have a common-mode voltage differential between earth ground and the frames of various appliances. Not good in of itself, but not usually a high enough voltage to disrupt the electronics in the appliances. More of a shock hazard to someone touching the appliance.
Normally this means the single ground-neutral bonding point should be near the home, near the master panel to a ground rod from the primary service panel for the home. That is, you want all the appliance frames to be referenced to the home's natural ground. There should be no current on the ground wiring at all anywhere.
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When ground and neutral are bonded together at the generator AND in the main breaker box for the home, the current-return path for any 120VAC circuits will run over both the neutral wire and the ground wire in the generator cable. This is bad (you aren't supposed to have current flow on the ground conductor), but usually doesn't hurt anything because the current recombines at the generator before going back to the stator. There ARE configurations where the current split can cause problems (based on where the bond is in the generator package), but probably not with your particular generator.
However, if the neutral conductor has failed, all the current will return over the ground conductor. The ground conductor might not be the same gauge as the neutral conductor and can melt (in modern code the ground conductor must be the same gauge, but it wasn't always this way). Beyond that, there still may not be any apparent faults. That is, until you disconnect the bond.
NOW if you disconnect the ground-neutral bond and the neutral conductor has failed, you have what is called a "floating neutral" situation. There is no low-impedance current return path for 120VAC circuits. Instead, the current will return through the earth... as in through the ground itself. The soil. The dirt. This is a high-impedance path and effectively allows the circuit to "sorta of" operate but also allows the "neutral" point that is supposed to be dead-center between the phases to float in one direction or the other, causing a voltage imbalance between the legs and "neutral".
The voltage imbalance then blows up 120VAC appliances that can't handle 240VAC.
In addition, the ground potential does not remain the same across distances and that will effect the neutral point as well.
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This brings up the age-old question... do you retain the bond at the generator or not? For a house, you NEVER want to unbond the ground-neutral bond in the main breaker box, so it comes down to whether you willfully retain the bond at the generator or not.
Retaining the bond: In some respects appears to be "safer" because you have a solid neutral link even if the neutral fails. But this also creates ground-loops in the earth when the generator is located far away from the house's ground rod (albeit at very low currents). So it is not really desirable to do this in some circumstances, but might be desirable to do this in other circumstances.
Removing the bond: Means that your neutral conductor had better be solid. If it is solid this is the safest configuration for a house connection because there won't be any ground loops going over the ground wire or through the soil. But in a free-standing (camping) situation, it is often less safe because the generator frame won't be referenced to the neutral.
One thing you should do is not locate the generator too far away from the house's own ground rod. Far enough away so exhaust isn't an issue for people inside the house, but not so far away that there might be a major potential difference in the earth ground between the two points.
-Matt
Because of my senior citizen status and several traumatic brain injuries,I tend to be forgetful. I’ve caused damage from loose or poorly connected neutrals also . I have several transformers that I bought to use with the Growatt inverters to form neutrals. I plan to always have one connected to the main panels even if I am connected to grid split phase.
I’ve been an electrician for thirty years and have had many calls where poor neutral connections on the service cause intermittent problems. When the house has a fairly large 240 volt load ,the 120 volt legs don’t vary a lot until they turn on a microwave or space heater. I had one situation where the lineman had to be called out the third time before they fixed it.
The electronic controls on appliances are very unforgiving for loose neutrals.
Thank you for stating this. A bonded generator should NOT cause this problem. There was another video I found where the user knew the bonding of the generator would NOT cause this issue, instead he started looking for loose neutral and found one in his pre-made generator cord which was the problem.
well said
Masterclass explanation.
We had a storm were out of power for 3 weeks in 0 degree weather as a family I had a friend with a non running generator which I fixed and hooked up to run stuff every store in town was out of plugs so I was forced to just stick the wires in to the socket one day the neutral worked itself out and fried the stove circuit board and the fridge in about one minute. It was worth it there was nowhere to go and our pipes would have frozen I got a couple of boards on ebay for $200. Power company even came out to put a new meter tag on without a fuss. 😂😂😂
I have the same Westinghouse generator which I bought to use as a backup to my off grid inverter system. Luckily for me, I hadn't gotten around to hooking it up to our inverter and after seeing this video and reading through the comments, I think I'll be nixing the idea entirely until I do a little more research. Sorry for all the headaches & expense you've suffered from this, but thanks for sharing so the rest of us can be forewarned.
Do you know what the real problem was / is ?
I'm no not trying to be mean, but I'm gonna be blunt.
What you're experiencing is a SYMPTOM of a greater disease, not the actual disease. There are other things wrong. Having the chassis bond merely revealed problems, and removing it merely hid them again.
While you're absolutely correct that it's important to have only a SINGLE ground/neutral bond, equally important is WHERE that ground/neutral bond happens. You don't get to just get to pick wherever that is, willy nilly. You need to remove the ground/neutral bond from where currently is in one of the houses, and add it at the MAIN panel at the source/service point for the entire electrical system, (which, in your case would be your disconnect panel in the power shed), NOT in some random sub panel in one of your houses.
You need to resolve this before you kill a PERSON, and not just some more expensive but replaceable inanimate objects...
NEC Article 50 was written in the blood of men, women, and children, alike, my friend. The angry pixies do not discriminate. We've already learned all of these lessons 'the hard way'. There's zero excuse to kill anybody else, (or frankly even fry electrical equipment), at this point. We've known better for a very long time now.
Move your ground/neutral bond (yes, that includes a new grounding rod) back to the power shed, RIGHT now.
I hate to 'gatekeep' against DIY, but if you don't fully understand it, it's totally worth it to have a competent electrician come out and inspect what you've done, to make sure any other mistakes get caught now, and not discovered the 'hard way'.
God forbid you or a member of your family gets killed or injured over an otherwise easily-resolved flaw; and you could've saved thousands of dollars in damaged electronics, at that.
Or, better yet, stop all that split-phase nonsense😅
One phase, one neutral, one ground.
Lost neutral? No power.
What? That's not how electricity works in the U.S. Split phase isn't optional. You need both halves of the phase for 240v.
Excellent warning. I am off grid and still learning solar tech stuff. A.C. is simple in comparison.
This was my exact thought. When I installed my on grid system the AHJ inspector told me there is/ should only be one ground neutral bond and it goes at the first main service connection point (ie his main disconnect panel in the shed) all other service panels should be unbonded but could potentially require separate ground rods at each building .
Get a Chargeverter. Charge the batteries at the generator's max continuous run capacity, then shut it down. That's the most efficient way. If you must use a small generator to run your house, it should be an inverter generator.
No need of those things, just parameter your inverter to take what's needed from the generator without putting it on is knees.
@honumoorea873 That is not an inverter generator, its power is probably dirty and could damsge the EG4 inverter.
@@52gulfpapa that's why you don't max out a normal generator, you keep it at 50% where the power is "cleanest"
@@Cody_Ramer actually even at 50% you can get 10% THD which is a lot for heat pumps
You're right. I picked up a chargeverter to charge my two pecron e3600lfp's (in 240v parallel) from a generator while they're in use. The chargeverter is like using a cheat code.
I also live offgrid and have that same EXACT generator model. I don't use it as I had major issues with the quality of the power that it put out. I have an Outback FXR inverter and it would start using the power then after a minute or so it would trip complaining about the power. I tried everything to get that generator to work. After banging my head against the wall with it I ended up buying a Honda EU3000 and programming my inverter to efficiently use the power from it.
I configured the inverter for a maximum 20 amps from the generator and a maximum of 18 amps to the charging. This leaves enough headroom that when the fridge or minisplit starts it has enough reserve.
I did the propane conversion on it (simple) and bought a exhaust kit for it. The exhaust kit uses solid ducting and not only moves all the exhaust out of my shed but also the air that's used to cool the engine itself. The generator runs perfectly happy and cool inside the shed.
The honda uses a small fraction of the fuel that the Westinghouse generator did for the exact same output. It uses about 1/4 gallon of propane per hour how I have it configured.
If you want another Westinghouse generator I have one that I would totally give you. They are *THAT* bad!!
EDIT: Also I want to join in the chorus of people informing you that you have NOT found the issue. Check every connection to ensure you have not done something simple like not stripping back the wire far enough and having insulation inbetween. You have the CLASSIC symptoms of a floating neutral... As others have said when the neutral is floating the imbalance is dependent on the loads. Don't blow all your stuff again as it truly WILL happen again as you have NOT identified the issue. You need to check every connection between the inverter and the generator! Removing the ground bond can actually make this **WORSE** as when they are bonded you effectively have 2 neutral wires as the ground can be utilized as a neutral in that condition. Please please hire an electrician to come out and inspect your system. You will spend 300 bucks on an electrician or 3000 to repair all your stuff AGAIN.
Most generators don't have a bonded neutral. If you connect a generator to a main service panel that should have a bonded neutral by NEC code then you'll be creating a ground loop which can damage sensitive electronics. I occasionally use my Ford f150 lightning to power my home. The Ford lightning has a bonded neutral it is smart enough to know so when you connect it to a bonded system you get a ground fault error. So all I had to do to resolve this issue was remove the ground wire from the generator backup receptical and everything works fine because my truck is still bonded and my service panel is still bonded but the ground from my truck never gets connect to my service panel via the ground wire. What happened with your bonded neutral generator was you created what known as a ground loop and current was allowed to travel through your ground wire which destroyed your electronics.
@@pstoneking3418 good information. Mine came with a bonded neutral. Until this video, no one even ever addressed the importance of bonding and unbonding depending on the application. I learned that I had to unbond when connecting to the main panel, which was already bonded.
That's not the root problem. If that were the only problem you would not see the destruction you experienced. The double-bonding will only cause current sharing between neutral and ground which is a potential safety issue, but otherwise 100% functionally fine.
I suspect you have a disconnected neutral and the generator bond was acting to partially mitigate that problem, obviously insufficiently. The disconnected neutral means it does not stay precisely centered between the 240v hot legs or in other words, unbalanced legs. One leg may be 200v and the other leg 40v with respect to neutral. This will cause all the destruction you described. If you have a large 240v load it can mask the problem by minimizing the imbalance, but that doesn't mean the problem is gone.
You are correct. I wish that he would hire an electrician. The reason he doesn't realize he is wrong is that it works "right now" ........ riiiiiiiiiiiiiight up till he has an imbalanced load. It would be so easy to test too. All he has to do is imbalance them on purpose using something like a space heater and looking at the voltage on the legs. I don't know why people haven't told him of this simple test. Heck even a hair dryer
Great of you to be humble and learning. You must be a nice enough guy to help others not make a costly mistake. I love the mentality.
I had a lady call us to check out an offgrid system someone had installed for her. They had an another contractor install a back up generator. Her husband commissioned the system and shortly after they tried the generator they realized the microwave and dishwasher wouldn’t work. All brand new appliances in a new build. I went out there and checked a few things. I ran the generator, as the problem happened after the generator was run, and the frequency was jumping from 60 to 120 to 600 to 900Hz! Harmonics! I checked the generator output right at the generator and it was 60Hz however in the house i was seeing harmonics. So I followed the line and there was a junction box where the generator circuit came into the house. I opened the PVC box and the blue marretts were almost melted. They were burnt and they were the wrong size - too small. The wires that the marretts were supposed to be holding together weren’t twisted or touching properly and there was arcing. The arcing was varying the frequency and is what damaged the electronics. The customer was very surprised at the problem and shocked that there was almost a fire.
I have a way to check the graph on the inverter and it never deviates in the range of 59-61 hz. As mentioned in our last video. Thanks for the story!
You can't run these generators directly to your inverter. The power is not clean. You have to stabilize the current through a charge verter. You can bypass this if you go with a stand alone generator at the tune of 12 to 20k. This is not a grounding issue. The frequency fluctuates to much from these smaller generators. I've done this, tossed my appliances and started a new. This will repeat itself if he just focuses on grounding and bonds.
Luxpowers manual states the inverter is designed to work with a bonded type generator. Also only one neutral bond should be made, but a your service entrance, in your case at your breaker panel in your power shed.
Best to also get a pure sine wave/inverter generator. Poor electricity quality can easily damage sensitive modern electronics.
His EG4 inverter IS a pure sine wave. His best bet is to use a Chargeverter by EG4 to charge the batteries, and move his ground-neutral bond to the power house, not at a farther location. It should be in the first breaker box off of the inverter. Using the Chargeverter instead of the AC input on the EG4 would eliminate any possibility of "dirty electricity" causing problems.
I got around that issue by using a Chargeverter to charge my batteries instead of using the pass through on my inverter (all in one). This also means that "dirty" electricity cannot go through sensitive electronics in my home.
Brother I would spend the 400 and get a chargeverter when u run that Gen's dirty power to be on the safe side. We been off grid for 11 years. This is very good information for others to follow keep it up brother
I did not know about this, thanks!
I far prefer the chargeverter style mechanism for backup power too. Ggenerators are nortoriously bad at responding to major load changes and hybrid inverters typically use the generator input as the master AC when it is active while its internal inverter is just used to charge the DC battery system.
With the chargeverter (with a battery charger in general), the generator's output is being converted to DC and only charging the battery while the entire rest of the system runs off the DC.
It is best to charge at roughly 50% the generator's max-rated continuous power. Also please read my main posting.... make sure you don't have a floating neutral because that is far more likely to be the actual issue than the ground bonding.
-Matt
I've been off-grid since 2003. And recently purchased a ChargeVerter from SignatureSolar.
Where are you in middle TN? Im here also. Might be able to help each other@@hisnaturefarm
I'm broke because energy company took most of my social security money .I'm looking at solar panels batteries invertors hybrid type 1 that charges and converts the DC power to 120 AC.i been looking at these ev batteries in getting a 48 volt battery if y'all guys knows this stuff I'm trying to buy 300 to 400 dollars a month to get a solar powered system .panals who's are priced the best and good panals invertors prob a 5000 watt or 7500 watt I'm a disabled retired because my health type 1 diabetes since 1985 it's worked on me .any info guys i appreciate it.this video is good one.
Im with some of the other comments, incorrect bonding is a safety issue that will allow voltage on the bare ground wire. This won't cause equipment to malfunction.
Now that i typed that, you should double/triple check your ground points. While bonding should only be in the main panel, every panel needs to be grounded.
"Bonding" , we here in the land of Oz, we have MEN link (Main Earth-Neutral) is done at main board only and for earth leakage systems. ALL gennies come bonded for safety and need modding to open their version of a MEN. This is very well known and why DIY is dangerous and costly.....
In your case, the genny is way too small and I bet that its output is dirtty as a spud in the ground. As others mentioned, feed the genny into a battery charger that is rated to correct size to charge the batteries and keep the genny output away from the AC side. They only time I would let a genny near the AC is several things, big diesel spinning a big alternator.
The control boards have ground traces all over them. When there is voltage between that and your neutral you have what is called "potential to ground. Also, if you have circuits that are unbalanced intermittently, you can float your neutral away from zero. Now if you are bonded in an out building and it and your house have all the power drawn from one leg in the house, the voltage drop from the smaller sized neutral will be seen on those control boards. I use an equal sized neutral in homes with ground source heat pumps for that reason. It wouldn't happen so much if all the ground sources were reliable in both or more structures. Many times I've found the refrigerant line to the a/c was the only ground in a house even though they had a ground rod. A ground rod is not to be the primary ground for a residence. It is an alternate. If you build with a basement, bond some of the rebar in the uphill side of the house. This is a better ground by far. In my current home, I welded several pieces together. I had a lightning strike when I was working on the panel. The rod the power company laid in the trench created steam and came out of the ground with so much force that the transformer flipped over. My ground rods were not hooked up yet. There was so much current on the #4 ground wire to the foundation that it turned a light pink like it was cleaned with acid. It must have gotten hot. The panel got new lugs and busses to save labor.
Please read the comments. There are two issues here. 1st is that the generator has horrible THD @ 25+. Get an inverter generator or use an EG4 Chargeverter to charge the batteries with the dirty generator. 2nd is the neutral issue. There are some correct explanations and some that aren’t correct. Removing the neutral bond from the generator is the correct call but most likely your issue is from a floating neutral as per many comments. To verify this you can call an electrical provider and tell them your lights are flickering and an electrician told you that your transformer has a loose neutral- they will have a bucket truck dispatched in seconds. I now you’re off grid but this is an example.
Thank you for the comments. I do appreciate it however, there are no floating neutrals in the entire system. There is also a proper earth ground, and as I mentioned in the video, there is only one bonding in one panel closest to the source and since the correction in the video I have used the generator several times without one issue.
@@hisnaturefarmI understand what you are saying but I’m not sure you understand the definition of floating neutral. I’m copy pasting this but google it for more info. -A “floating” neutral occurs when the connection to the ground breaks or becomes loose, which causes the neutral bar to “float.” This can happen in your panel or between the utility and your electric panel. It can be caused by a mechanical issue or other issues like rust or corrosion.
It’s a serious issue because the neutral balances voltage across the two phases. In a floating neutral situation, the difference between the phases remains 240V, but the 0V reference (the neutral) no longer exists. This knocks voltage out of balance, so some appliances may draw more voltage than they should while others draw less. You might notice flickering lights. In a severe case, an outlet could malfunction and could be energized with the full 240V, which can damage devices and pose a shock or fire hazard.
He could control the transient issues by plugging in some large scale varistors (cheap solution) - surge protectors, Bowthorpe specialize in these. But that won't solve the THD problem.
@@dalltexis this what causes odd low voltage readings from neutral to ground? And one other question issue. Bonding all panels in the building wouldn't be an issue if the source of power wasn't bonded, am I correct? I'm assuming this because the neutral and the ground are the same parallel circut throughout the building, right? I appreciate any feedback.
Kudos on your sharing your newfound wisdom. More incentive for me to try to keep things simple. I don't attach anything to my home. I'd rather have it portable and dethatched, like the EcoFlow.
While double bonds are a safety issue and should be fixed, they're *NOT* the cause of all your damaged circuit boards. Cheap contractor generators have poor voltage regulation, and when undersized and charging an inverter with poor (or no) power factor correction, the waveform distorts massively. Borrow an oscilloscope and watch the voltage waveform when you're charging - I'll bet you a steak dinner that you see "devils horns" - the waveform distorts into three spikes - an an early and late harmonic, and the center of the waveform shoots up to nearly double the nominal voltage. It's that spike that's taking out your electronics.
At 9.5kW, that generator is woefully undersized for your loads and inverter. Remember, when your system is connected to the generator, the genny has to power the loads first, and only after they're satisfied can the remainder go to battery charging. I'm guessing here, but with four or five minisplits I'm betting your baseload is around 3-4kW, plus more for starting surges. If that's in the ballpark, then only half your generator's output is available for charging, on an 18kW inverter. Unless you ramp back the charging way way back, your generator is overloaded and into a non-pfc charger it's going to distort worse than your neighbor's kid's boombox at a pool party kegger.
Agree. He would be better off disconnecting the generator input from the EG4 inverter and using a Chargeverter to charge his batteries instead!
The reason for only a single bonding is to ensure there is only one path for current on the ground to the neutral. There should never be current on the ground (this would be a fault), so under normal circumstances this does not matter. When it matters is when there IS current on the ground, this could potentially allow current to bypass a safety causing injury or fire. I would agree with many of the comments on here that the output of your generator is likely dirty/noisy causing improper voltage/frequency/electrical noise in your system. Digital electronics hate noisy power. Using your generator to charge your batteries would be the best way to avoid this.
Thanks for this video. The topic is important. The comments about floating neutral seem to have the most merit, but it's fabulous to have this discussion.
Your bonding info is correct however the issue you have with generator does not seem like a bonding issue. The ground bolt on the generator is used to ground the chassis to earth ground and since you did not its not grounded and being on a wooded pallet it’s isolated. By removing the ground connection within the generator wiring you are risking your safety. The ground is a non current carrying conductor under normal conditions and is used to ground equipment in case of short.
So if I am correct the 50a is a 4 wire and is grounded into the inverter.
@ Yes with 4 wire cable / connector (hot,hot,neutral and ground) assuming the ground is connected in the cable your grounding will be done at your main panel through the cable if you don’t use the ground lug on the generator. Since you removed the jumper that grounds the chassis it will be ungrounded. get an ohm meter and check continuity from ground on cable and generator chassis to verify
When you are checking for grounding with ohm meter check reference from generator stator and generator frame. The stator and engine are usually mounted on rubber shocks for vibration which will also make them electrically isolated. The jumper you removed may have been for grounding due to them being isolated.
Hi, somewhat related - I hope people can comment on my situation. I'm only a self-taught electrician. I converted a big Connex shipping container into a shop. I ran the two hots and neutral to a breaker panel in the Connex. I also connected the skin of the Conex to a ground wire and ground rod. I was told I should not do this. Your opinions, please. I figure I did not want to get electrocuted if a power tool shorts out in the shop, or if by some remote chance a lightning strike should hit the Conex. And I did not think it mattered as the Conex is touching the ground anyway. Am I causing the potential for unsafe ground loops? I do not have the neutral and ground connected together anywhere in the Conex.
You have a bad neutral on a 240 circuit causing a back feed of 240 on a 120 circuit. Check ALL YOUR NEUTRALS. Or you crossed your phasing somewhere. Somehow you are backfeeding the other phase into a neutral.
@Websurf-s3eI think he is still going to have the problem even with the generator bond removed. It could even make the problem worse if power was flowing on the ground to the neutral in the generator. Now the power has no where to go. I think it’s time for him to call a professional or someone more experienced. Also the main system bond should be at the first means of disconnect not all these way at his second house.
When you lose your neutral the voltage on the two hot legs will go all wonky, one HIGH and one LOW, they will still be 240 across each other but back to neutral they will be stupid, and your equipment is ALL in pearl at that point, and in my case it always happened at the meter base, and if you call the utility about it they will get there ASAP because it is a BIG DEAL!! Once they finally got the connections fixed in their box my issues have so far gone away here.
@@dannydivine7699I have an older house that uses 3 wires for the 240v circuits. 2 of them are hot, the other is ground, but no neutral. I have no issues and I don't know if a neutral is needed in that case. Is this correct? This is the case for my water heater, ac system, dryer and over and stove.
@@vegasguy73 Where is this house?? In the United States "Normal" residential split phase power does not use a neutral in a 240 volt appliance.
And I say that with "Caveats" that if you don't have a reasonable understanding of your appliances and their respective power requirements, "DO NOT GO POKING AROUND YOURSELF" if they are working leave them alone, there are lots of possible ways to screw up with electricity, and it can be a VERY UNFORGIVING TEACHER!! Be CAREFUL!!!
All neutrals are good. There is nothing crossed. Ever since I removed the double bond, no issues at all.
I use my generator on my solar system occasionally. It substitutes for the grid when it's out. So the way that works is that the generator output feeds into your inverter / charger . When your inverter senses the input voltage, it has to sync the inverter output with the generator output This circuitry ensures that the frequency and sine wave match that of the generator. If it doesn't, the inverter won't allow the generator to connect. If you're powering sensitive electronic circuitry directly with your generator, you should be sure your generator output frequency is 59- 61 hz. If it isn't, there's a good chance your sensitive electronics will be destroyed. The generator AVR probably needs to be replaced. If you're going to use your generator to directly power your sensitive electronics, you should purchase what's known as an inverter generator. These contain an electronic inverter which ensures a clean stable 60 hz frequency.
I use a Chargeverter and I never use the charging capabilities of my inverter charger. This avoids powering the house loads by the generator while charging the batteries. To my way of thinking, this solves some problems with this off grid solar grounding question. I've run my off grid solar system for 6 years with no grounding on the system at all. If I was on grid I would use the typical grounding system required with, as you say, only one bonding point in the system. Thanks for the video.
I use a Outback FXR inverter with a Honda EU3000 generator. I configured the inverter with a current cap of 20 amps from the generator and a charging current max of 18 amps. The way the outback works it reduces the charging current if there isn't enough power "budget" from the generator. It works FLAWLESSLY!! When I turn on a big appliance like the Microwave the charging current drops INSTANTLY. When the microwave shuts off you hear the generator slow down then ramp back up as it increases the charging back to its previous level.
On your subject of grounding. I have what I call a "weak ground" in my system for the SOLE purpose of discharging static electricity. Prior to this "static ground" when I ran the vacuum it would cause a massive static buildup in the house that can damage things very easily. It was so bad that the dogs hair would stand up. Installing this ground cured the issue.
We live next to a river and the soil is only 2-3 foot deep and under it is 1 solid sheet of rock that covers everywhere I've ever dug a hole. So the ground rod goes in at an extreme angle into the ground to get as much as I could. I actually prefer it this way because if lightning were to ever hit close to the house I don't want my ground to be the path in. The solar panels are on wood racks (ungrounded) so other than that static ground the entire system is floating.
If I were you with winter coming I would consider something similar. You won't believe the difference in your house.
On the topic of powering the house loads off the generator.... If you don't use the power directly from the generator you have to convert it to DC at a loss then convert it back to AC at a loss. So you are wasting fuel for no good reason. You are frankly better off to slow your charging down during those periods to avoid these conversion losses.
When I run a load that is beyond what my generator can do the inverter actually pitches in to help in a interactive mode. I can literally pull 100% of the generator output + 100% of the inverter output combined. I don't know anything about your inverter however you should be able to configure yours to do the same exact thing.
Just my 2cents (twice)
@@dersteer Since most generators put out "dirty" electricity, and the inverter he has puts out Pure Sine Wave electricity, it is better to just use the generator to charge the battery bank, and only use the inverter to power his loads, since his will power his whole house with no problems. The only time he will need to use the generator, if his solar system is enough, is if there is heavy clouds, so it would be better to do things this way. His EG4 inverter would send power directly through to his house PLUS try to charge his battery bank, (so there is no DC to AC and back power loss), thus he would need to double the size of his generator to get enough power for both. It sounds to me like you might have an older inverter. Like others above have stated, he would be best served to get an EG4 Chargeverter, which can be set to charge from zero to 100 Amps at a wide variety of Voltages, to charge up his battery bank when there isn't enough sun.
@@Tumbleweed5150 Thats the least efficient way. The losses are running everything inside the house while you are charging. Everything running inside the house requires AC to DC then from DC to AC. The chargeverter is simply the least efficient way of doing it. I'll give you an example. My mini split requires 1200 watts to run and I commonly run the generator to charge the system + run the mini split at the same time. My inverter is super smart and not only handles all this on its own but can also supplement the generator power with inverter power.
If *ALL* you were doing is charging and you don't have any loads (kinda unlikely if offgrid) then the chargeverter is fine.
Also if you are adding addition chargers for increased rate the chargeverter could be alright.
The most efficient is to use the actual power from the generator directly if you can without any conversions.
If you aren't truly offgrid none of this matters however I have to pay for the fuel constantly because I'm 2 miles from the nearest power line so efficiency is paramount ot me.
the charging portion on inverters also goes bad with time... another reason not to use it. cause you can end up needing a new inverter in the dead of winter.
thank you very much!!!! this is probably the most helpful video I have ever seen because I have the same problem but luckily I have not connected my generator to my house yet. i too am not an electrical whiz and have been very confused for long time. I am also going to buy the same products from the same folks that you did because of their outstanding customer service
however I read some of the feedback comments which quickly went over my head. therefore I am sending this information to my electrician to make sure that my house breaker box and my generator are properly connected
Be careful, on that Westinghouse generator. I had to use it while getting a lot of rain. The main toggle switch got wet since they’re not waterproof, so it burnt out and cut all power off to this. I bought a pack of 2 waterproof on/off switch.
Thanks for this video. I’m going to double check all my stuff.
Would the gridboss help with this, to prevent damage? THANK YOU! much needed info. I have been looking to get an EG4 Hybrid system.
Thank you for blessing my day, with this knowledge and advice.
If you do, don't use the generator input. Get the EG4 Chargeverter to charge your battery bank from the generator. This will save a lot of head-aches. Also, make sure that your Neutral-Ground bond is in a breaker box right off the panel....UNLESS you are using the hybrid as a grid-tie inverter. In THAT case, your house breaker box will already have the neutral-ground bond.
My 24 volt Aims inverter charger is Bonded. Inside. And I just bought the same Generator. I guess I need to unbound the Generator or the Inverter Charger ??
So glad I found this video. I'll make darn sure to do this
You might have just saved me about $5000 or more. I literally have that generator and I'm setting up that and starting to build a Solar system tomorrow. This is an old farmhouse and With different buildings I need to check the bonding everywhere. I can't thank you enough.
If you are going with EG products, PLEASE just get the Chargeverter. So much safer and why take a chance. That $500 would have also saved him a fortune. We are not going to hook any generator directly to our inverter. We are having this installed instead. Its just not worth taking the chance. Other than that I LOVE all my EG products. They just work. I have his same inverter and its is awesome sauce off grid or on.
@@mnj5089 The chargeverter is only needed for modified squarewave/fake sinewave. The westinghouse I have is a pure sinewave generator.
@@forgeteverythingyouknow5413 I do understand all of that but its still just not worth it to me. Years of boondocking for dog shows so we've used a lot of different generators and I rather just have peace of mind plus it means I don't have to pay for that inverter generator. I can use any of them which is also nice since we have a small collection now. LOL. But I feel like the chargeverter just prevents several potential problems. I am not an electrician but kind of have to agree with many of the other responses that there is some other secondary issue happening. And its fine until it isn't. I learned some hard lessons myself.
@@mnj5089 I will take that under advisement, sir.
@@mnj5089 I thought I responded but I don't see it now... Thank you for the response. It was refreshing and I will take it under advisement.
This is not a bonding issue.
Double bonding does NOT cause a short!
#1. Throw that junk generator away! If you keep it, rebond that neutral so you don't die when you touch the frame in the rain! Westinghouse is about as low quality as you can get. The cheapest harbor freight generator is higher quality! You spent all that money on solar and went cheap on the generator. That don't make no sense!
#2. Unhook your generator connections from your inverter. I don't care what eg4 says, its obviously wrong. Completely isolate your generator from the solar inverter. Use a transfer switch to run power from a quality whole house generator like a Generac, Kohler, or Cummins unit.
#3. Use a stand alone charger off the generator side of the transfer switch to charge your batteries.
Your eg4 has a built in split phase transformer causing a floating neutral/hot neutral situation backfeeding from the generator connection.
THAT IS YOUR WHOLE PROBLEM
My farm runs off 36Kw of panels through four 5Kw growatts in parallel with 3 separate 5Kw auto transformers. I have 9600ah battery backup. I use a 22Kw generac standby generator with an automatic transfer switch. I have extensive electrical experience working as an electrician for the last 30 years. I ran into the dilemma you have of wanting to use a back up generator to run my house and charge the solar batteries on bad sun or stormy days. After running tests and metering out the lines I found it best to separate out the two systems due to neutral problems.
As stated in many other replies-
If you do not know what you are doing, hire an electrician!
Blown circuit boards and wasting money is the best case scenario for the mistakes in your system.
I hope you get it sorted out.
Thanks for your reply, but here’s the situation ever since I disconnected the double bond I never have had an issue again, but prior to this change. I blew stuff every last time I turned the generator on. Now it’s been working perfectly. All the neutrals are good, All the earth grounds are good and believe it or not. I got a bit of experience with electrical maybe not so much with solar but with everything else so let’s call it a fluke of the universe. You have to also look at what was blowing, and it was circuit boards that cannot tolerate much fluctuation in voltage and therefore, double bond could absolutely cause this problem.
You guys are ahead of me but generator s are not pure sign wave for electronic@hisnaturefarm
@@hisnaturefarm It is interesting that you no longer have the problem, BUT, you also blew up a bunch of stuff and had to replace stuff right? So maybe something else was ground faulting somewhere...?
WOW. I have a setup similar to yours. Now I have to check the House, Work Shop, Garden Shed and solar breaker boxes. Which one is bonded?
I would suggest that you look into installing some Bifacial panels as a car port or something similar. These will obviously boost your current production, which you might or might not need in sunnier times, but it will definitely help the production in cloudy and on rainy days. I have 20 x Jinko 560w Bifacials and am blown away what they are producing under inclement conditions. I would also agree with just using any kind of generator to charge batteries as much as possible for obvious reasons.
I doubt this was the issue. It is not “short circuit” to have it bonded it in two places
Thousands of people plug these generators into their homes that are bonded
The problem that I suspect is not having clean sinusoidal wave out of that generator. These generators can have up to 25% THD
That would make inductive loads like AC compressors struggle and burn
Thanks for the input, but you are incorrect. See the most recent video on it.
@@hisnaturefarmlol 😂it looks to me from the comments that you are INCORRECT 😂
Did Ground/bond there Generator OR you put them in the same grounding rod?
You need to ground rod the Equipment at least 8-10 feet from the Grounding ROD from the generator..
Generator when they get loaded up will shift frequency and voltage unless they are imverter generators. It's worth the extra money for the inverter generator. I think some of the inverter generators have a switch to set them as unbonded output.
My outback fxr inverter wouldn't even accept the power from my Westinghouse generator **EXACTLY** like his. It would attempt to use it and run for anywhere from 30 seconds to a few minutes then the inverter would trip off complaining of the power quality coming from it. I left a comment for him stating that I would give him this generator as its totally useless to me. It is currently sitting in a shipping container practically brand new. By the time I figured out the issue the return period had elapsed. I replaced it with a EU3000 and haven't ever had another issue!
I have a Duramax generator that is not bonded. I connected the generator to the house but shut my solar off when running and had no issues I also have an ups with pure sine wave to my sensitive electronics. If I have to use my generator for power tools I made a bonding plug the the neutral and ground are temporary bonded then when done I remove bonding plug.
With respect, I don't believe that your issue is (only) due to dual bonding in the wrong location (ie another panel). You need another issue for that to ever cause a problem, such as a really bad ground fault. In other words, even if you bond to another panel by accident, you will not have an issue with blowing control boards etc unless there is some other issue which would result in power backfeeding thru the circuit in the first place.
Are you sure that your generator was not generating more voltage than nominal?
Are you sure that the generator transfer switch is working properly? Are there any "multiwire" circuits in the house where there is a shared neutral?
There are many other possible issues, but "bonding" would not cause that issue... unless you got hit by lightning or had a serious ground fault somewhere else in the system.
Thanks for this information.
I am also having trouble getting my mpp solar pip 5048gk inverter to take power from my generator. I'll try to see if it's the same problem I have, I've thought it's the dirty current that turns the inverter off. We have grounding connected from the AC side to the inverter from the public power plant and when we drive off grid there will still be grounding connected to the inverter.
I suspect that could be the error I'm experiencing. Greetings from Denmark
Yeah, I do notice that inverters are real fickle and very different and how they work for example, this 18 K first services the loads then it will charge the batteries. Which I really don’t like, but there’s no way to change it. The only way is using chargeverter. Thanks for your comment.
@@hisnaturefarm On your 18K under charge settings set up a battery charge priority time where you top off the batteries first then excess PV goes to the loads. You can also set how much power to allocate during battery priority mode in that section. I'm on grid with the 18kPV so we may be talking about two different things...
The 2nd ground boand can cause feed back and the is bad if you unhooked all but the den. you be ok take all green screws out but the 1st panel only
I'll agree to the fact that there should be only one bond on the system. However, I believe that bond should be in your inverter as it's your main power source. Bonding it at the house will take everything upstream, including the second house, have to feed the ground/neutral back to the current house for bonding. NEC states it should be at the first disconnect past the power source. Aka at or just beyond the inverter.
There must be more to this. Ground and neutral should only be connected at one place for code, but that should mean that they are the same and are already "shorted". Current does flow back down the neutral on a 120v circuit or an unbalanced 240v circuit, but it's still going to ground somewhere. I'm not seeing how all these problem can be caused by double bonding. I have seen in a mobile home were the panel on the pole was bonded and the panel in the home was bonded for years, and nothing ever happened. The generator must be causing some other effect also.
Truly I don't know much about gens as my setup is purely solar. But, I have seen some info getting out there about the difference. THANK YOU for being honest in this and putting great detailed info out to help us all who may want to use a generator one day. I will say going into entry of video I was thinking it was going to be something like you was using a non inverter generator and that was what was causing all the issues. I got to be honest. I have a old school 2000 watt old coleman gen. And that was going to be a little back up if ever needed. But, I am so concerned about using it now not being inverter gen. I just have not connected it up.
Consider the inverter shed as as if it is a transformer from the power company for safety. With a transformer the neutral is bonded to the ground at the pole. The neutral is also bonded to the ground at your house, again for safety. What you are describing is a floating neutral in the house. A floating neutral allows the voltage on one side of your 240 volt feed to increase above 120 volts depending on how well your 120 volt circuits are balanced. Check to see you have a ground rod to the ground buss in the house and that the neutral is bonded to the ground bus. Four wire circuits should only be used in each building, not between buildings. Hope this helps.
Yes it is improper to have a double bond system. It should be bonded at your main panel all other sub panels grounds and neutral must be separated. In this case the generator bond should be removed when connect to the house. But important when the gen is used as a stand alone the bond should be reconnected to prevent a shock hazarded. As for destroying all of your electronics I do not see how a double bond system could cause this. The problem with a double bonded system is that some of the neutral current will flow through both the ground and the neutral wire between the two bonds. This is not proper but I do not see how this should destroy your electronics. What does destroy the electronics is not the bonds but what is called harmonic distortion. This is complex subject to explain but the sine wave that the generator produces is not pure as a result of this distortion it can cause very large currents to flow. This current is different than the regular AC current that flows at 60 Hz. These harmonic currents operate at a much higher frequency than the 60 Hz current. To explain this in layman's terms you can think of this current as very brief surges of current that a typical AC amp meter can not register. These high current surges can become very high and can burn out sensitive electronics . If the current is high enough it can burn out regular motors and even cause heating in the wiring. What you need is a good inverter generator which produce pure AC. From what I can see in the video I think your gen is a standard and is not an inverter type. Hope this helps.
Thanks! Excellent explanation. See my last video for an update, see what you think.
Sounds like you should have gotten a qualified electrician to set up your system sounds like it would have saved you money!
Hi Jim, my first ti?e watching your channel. I'm curious if you have surge protection anywhere in your house(s), or maybe only the inverters has it internally?
Great question, I do not have surge protection just yet. I have been doing some research. The main thing I am learning is that they have protection from EMPs and lightning strikes. I am planning of getting one and doing a video on it. Thanks for commenting!
get a charger. generators can surge or provide all sorts of nasty electricity. lots of things are computerized; which are very sensitive.
get a charger, which then becomes your sacrificial piece; dump it into your batteries; yes you loose 10-20% efficiency but your protected.
after the charger, your batteries will act as a buffer; dc & batteries don't care much about dirt electricity and will eat it all up no problem.
fixing your ground issue doesnt fix the inherint problem with generators; but pumping it into dc does.
when a part on generators fail, they can produce some real nasty stuff. 50hz, 70hz, unstable hz, unstable voltage, overvoltage, undervoltage, grounding fixes none of that.
If 240vAC is going into the inverter - why is the generator neutral even connected to the house? Separate panel, separate ground.
First time I've heard about this thanks for the information let us know if this is the problem
Been there, done that. Luckily it only cost me two surge suppressor power strips and scorch spots on some carpeting. I was bonded at the generator, the barn and at the house. This is a very common and dangerous mistake.
There is ac stabilizators sold seperately for that case... also using ups can fix this as most ups's has internal voltage stabilisation circyits..
I'm here in Middle TN as well south of Columbia. I don't live in a house but a 5th wheel RV in a campground and I needed backup power for when shore power goes down. Because of all the sensitive electronics in the RV, I was told to stay away from regular high output generators because they will destroy everything. So I ended up with a low output Westinghouse i4500DF inverter generator which runs on both gasoline and propane that I've used three times now since moving here two years ago and I've had no issues whatsoever with any of my electronic systems. I wanted to buy a 9000-12000 watt regular generator and now I'm glad I didn't. The generator I bought is limited to 30-amp / 120vac / 4500 watt so I have to carefully chose what items to run when on generator power. Eventually I will buy a larger 50-amp / 240vac inverter generator but they are very expensive. I was told the Westinghouse and Onan inverter generators are one and the same, and if I buy a second unit of equal wattage, I have a pairing cable to join them together to make 50-amp / 240vac / 9000 watts which will be more than enough to power my whole RV as if it were on shore power. As my electric panel in the RV is unbonded, it means whatever source my power comes from must be bonded be it shore or generator power. I have a protection system between shore power and RV which verifies everything is properly wired which indicates with three green lights.
Thank you for this bit of money saving info
If I have the generator shut-off and not connected to anything, and connect a multi-meter (set to test continuity) between the ground and neutral on the plug from the generator, the meter should show continuity if the generator is bonded and no continuity if the bond has already been broken? I am guessing that the bonding terminal on the panel is for connecting to a ground rod or some other means of establishing an earth ground? Maybe used at a major construction site but only supplying individual tools via extension cords?
Appreciate your input! Yea, I thought about that location as well. Think it is ok for now. Jim
4 things, 1, There are reasons you don't want other panels bonded, usually to prevent ground loops and to lessen lightning voltage potential, but I seriously doubt your bonded generator caused your issue. 2, I also agree with others, it sounds more like you have an open neutral causing your issue. 3, as several others have stated, I NEVER use one of the basic/cheap generators to run ANYTHING that has electronics in it. I have one of the Honda 2200 inverter units for smaller things, and I have a 10kw unit that is rated for clean power for electronics. In the last 30 years, NEVER blew up anything, and it has been hooked to multiple houses and run many items with electronics. 4, there is no such thing as a hot water heater!
You got me thinking, what about that the sine wave from the line, is typically in sync with the solar panels mini inverters. And maybe not synced to the generator?
Could be a big problem.
Thank you! This is a great wake-up call!
Great video and reminder. Like you we're off grid and our system is complicated enough that this could have bitten us. I don't have a great handle on AC electricity at all, but in our system we have an inverter and solar and it feeds 230V AC power to two different locations on the property. Each location has an Autotransformer and a C/B panel and its own bond. So despite the AC power coming from one single inverter, it's bonded in two separate locations.
We also have a backup generator and I think we're going to put in a third bond there, because that generator feeds an EG4 Chargeverter which converts the generator's AC power into DC power which feeds directly into the battery bus. Since it doesn't directly tie into the AC system, it's treated like a stand alone generator.
This stuff is complicated and I certainly don't have a great grasp of it.
2:20 I would check your 3 wires that are hot/hot/neutral and make sure they are hooked up correctly. They all 3 have yellow stripe and would be very easy to mix up. They should be identified as hot, the yellow stripe identifies the wire as neutral, but also just makes it easy to mix up and land a hot on the neutral terminal. Please check those wires.
Great video and explanation, very well done.
Is not bonding issue, is floating neutral, multiple bounding is only problem for RCD, you can have multiple bonding if you know how to do it right ;-) For shure is not generator problem...
You are correct. Man I love all you guys stepping up even though you can read he doesn't believe it. His issue went away because he hasn't found the right combination of appliances to cause the issue again.
Came here to say the same things.
I’m living off grid and I’ve found inverter generators have the lowest THD and the cleanest sine wave. The power head type are best used for corded tool construction use.
So sorry for your expensive lesson, and thank you so much for sharing. The complexity of grounding and bonding---especially for lightning protection---is something that is still fiercely debated in off-grid electrical systems. The old Home Power magazine archive (free with username and password) has a great regular column called Code Corner which has helped me sort through the 'noise.'
BTW, my old genset has only the earth symbol (no placard) as shown on your genset at the ground/ earth lug. The user manual states in the section "Electrical Precautions: ...2. The Generator must be properly earth-grounded by a licensed electrician...". That's a pretty straight forward statement. However, there's this statement in the section "GROUNDING THE GENERATOR 1. NOTE: ...(Generators without a permanent installation may not need to be grounded, check local codes and ordinances.)... 2. Connect a #6 AWG grounding wire (not included) from the Grounding Point on the front panel to a grounding rod (not included) that has been driven at least 24 inches deep into the earth..."
That Note creates ambiguity even in unbonded gensets. As far as I know, you can't have too many earth grounds in a system as long as they are upstream from the neutral bonding 'jumper'. Unless I'm hooking up my genst ground conductor to my house right at the service entrance from the grid (where an earth-ground rod is located), I wouldn't hesitate to run my ground wire from the earth-ground lug on the genset to a new earth-ground rod right next to the genset. I might be tempted to plug a power tool into one of the sockets if I'm working near the genset for any random reason.
Yes I have two earth grounds.
This looks like a “FLOATING NUTRAL” problem in the system. If the Earth ground is not sufficient, the loads on both sides will fluctuate causing one side to brown out and the other side to spike. This is why stuff is burning up. Adding an amateur radio grounding system at your master load distribution panel would solve this issue.
Educational! Thank you!
Kool. Thanks for the share.
I didn’t know that thanks for telling us.
You're generator was never really grounded in the first place, except whatever current could flow through the frame and probably rubber feet to the pad, then maybe to dirt. Having a neutral ground bond that far away from the actual neutral ground bond can't be a good thing. I agree with everyone here. It shouldn't have been a problem except for ground loopback issues. Why isn't the main ground neutral bond at point source where it should be? None of us are there, even with the video and explanation, more onsite testing and examination by a certified quality electrician should be considered.
I have had plenty of generator problems. My inverter for unknown reason can only accept power through grid port, my fridge freezer surge would under /over hrz, turned off all surge items, lower charge to 85A , use 1600w, 6600w from a 9kw steady 60.3 hrz at 119.8 to 120.1v. I would recommend no surges using a gen while charging at high rates over 70A. Glad I didn't go through this bonding issue, sorry thanks for sharing.
A single ground neutral bond is NEC code. Usually 2 ground neutral bonds just leave part of the circuits unprotected from fault. Not sure what's going on in your place. FYI to whomever, the EG4 6500ex has a bonding screw inside, the 6000xp has a bond by software configuration so you would need to read the manual to make sure what mode your bond is in. Not sure about 12k or 18k, but probably software driven bond. Also not all generatora are ground neutral bonded out of the box. My older Honda EU6500i came unbonded, probably lucky for me. I'm not off grid and my bond is in my main house panel. I'm also using my generator to charge the batteries in the event I dont have sun and no, you dont have to have a chargeverter, but you'll need to do your due diligence in your situation. I configured the amount of power allowed out from my generator by my 6000ex's. if more demand is needed, it'll pull from battery secondary. It's untrue that a 12k generator is mandatory to connect to the gen breaker input as long as the current is configured correctly.
with your apparent knowledge (or major lack there of) you should get a real electrician to help you and do it right. Bonding is not the problem. Bonding keeps YOU from getting shocked. my system is grounded (with a ground stake) and bonded at the genset it is also the same way at the inverter output. what it sounds like to me is that you have a floating neutral (not connected) or that the cycles or volts or both are not within limits. ( like trying to use modified sign wave on new electronics , they go poof and let all the magic smoke out). you have already spent more in repair costs than if you would have had a electrician come out. also if they fired it up and blew everything than they would pay to fix. good luck
Interesting, because in Europe the Generators are NEVER bonded.
I use Victron MultiPlus-II Charging-Inverter and they do the un/bonding automatically
Doesn't Europe use 230 Volts? In this case the "neutral" is what we would call Line 2, while the "hot" is line 1. Our "Neutral" is to provide the 120 Volts our houses use besides the occasional 240 Volt dryer/stove, etc. This is why our generators have the neutral to ground bond, while yours don't. The Bonding to ground of our Neutral gives a base for the sine wave. One leg or line, say Hot, is where the sine wave is 120 Volts "above" Neutral, and the other leg or line, say Line 2, is 120 Volts "below" neutral. Having the ground to neutral bond keeps the Neutral from "wandering". I have an off- grid system that worked great until we had a super-heavy rain storm without the ground-neutral bond. It took out many of the other off-grid inverters in our off-grid community. Mine seemed to work fine, but when I plugged in a tester, the Hot/Neutral fault light came on. I shut down my system and put in the bond in my main breaker box. Once I restarted my system everything was fine. Most folks here don't use the ground for their cheap inverters, which is one reason they failed. My next door neighbor and I both had our more expensive systems grounded. (He had the same problem, by the way.)
You are also not done. You still need to find where there is a transformer or doorbell that has one leg grounded to neutral. You mentioned Rheem. They used to always ground one side of the transformer which makes the 24 vac.
What's very weird is i saw this type of video ahead of time and unbonded my generator and when I ran it I blew my emp and other devices and thought what the heck is going on, so I put the generator back to the way it was and no problem.
I emailed the company directly and they said you need an inverter generator. It doesn't like dirty open cage power and then it tries to shut off the power for safety which lowers the voltage and kills your stuff on top of your bonded issue. I'm on 874 hrs on my harbor freight inverter genny. It was all I was able to get in the town the day I found out and it was cloudy for days so we needed power, oh and family was visiting. Turns out it's a good gen. Note: The 1st panel should be bonded, all others fed off the main panel are sub panels requiring non bonded, just remove the screw in the panel. Note if you want to just use 1 gallon of gas a night the aims 24v/48v charger will run off the costco yamaha $500 2200w genny. Both are great and will get you through a night or few days with only 1 gallon for 8hrs. If I need a lot of power charging (30 amps) I run the big inverter gen.
Thanks a million, i could just imagine the money in going to save in repairs, i have a 20 kw solar system and im adding a 10 kw generator to my system
I hope it helps you! This is how we all learn together!
Use an EG4 chargeverter to charge your batteries when using a generator, rather than running the generator straight to the inverter. Especially important if off-grid.
Thank you so much for covering this issue! Fortunately, I didn’t have all that problem because I searched and searched and searched before I actually hooked it up. I noticed just about all the videos, well as a matter of fact all the videos I watched about hooking up the generator to the main panel Never mentioned unbonding the generator.
So sorry you had all those problems. I’m sure it was quite an expensive lesson.
But thank you so much for providing this video. I’m glad someone out there finally saw the need to post this very important information.
I liked and subbed!
Cheers from Dave over at Dabomb Smokes!😎✌️
I use a chargeverter to charge battery stay away from it will work with your EG4
Thanks for the tip, I have not looked into that one yet.
@@hisnaturefarm I use one with a smallish generator, and it works great! The main thing I like about it is that you can adjust both Voltage and Amperage to make it work easily with most generators above a certain size. (It can also work to charge up a 36 Volt golf cart system, but that's another story). It also cleans up the electricity from "dirty power" generator outputs to make sure the batteries are getting clean electricity, and your inverter doesn't have to work overtime trying to power your house plus charge the battery bank.
Sorry bud, that ain't it. Keep looking.
Sure was. No issues since.
I think he's right. While you havent had an issue yet, double, triple, or even a hundred bonds will not cause things to blow. This is the classic floating neutral issue that kills 120v items. Sounds like you're neutral wire is loose somewhere between the gen and the house. To test for this turn off all your breakers. Then just turn on a few outlet circuits that are all on the same 120v leg and load it up with space heaters, heat gun, hair dryers and whatever you got. Have someone monitor the voltage while you wiggle the neutral connections at the gen, any plugs, at the panel and whatever else its connected. If you see the voltage drop that means that missing voltage has shifted over to the other leg. That's what kills things. 240 is split in half by the neutral. If one leg is pulled down to say 50 then you've got 190 on the other and things pop @@hisnaturefarm
@@hisnaturefarm Just because your toothache went away doesn't mean you're cavity-free. You either have an intermittent ground loop, or something in your setup is sending 240v across a single phase somewhere and frying your 120v electronics, or both. I bet in your testing you turned off a breaker or unplugged a 240v to 120v RV plug somewhere and haven't reconnected either of them yet.
You may want to pay an electrician for an inspection before winter comes and you're frozen out, or you start a melty wire fire somewhere.
So, I have received so many comments, I will respond with another video shortly about why this was the solution. Thanks for the comment.
@@hisnaturefarm -- ID10T !
OK, I agree, you're not good with electricity. Thousands of dollars of sensitive electronics that require low THD current running on a cheap non inverter generator, not once, but twice. That generator has only
I figured your generator just went a little out of phase of the inverter and blew a bunch of stuff
Thank you for sharing!
Boanding should be in the 1st panel and not it all others are sub panels
Thanks for the information.
Just found your channel and love the useful info and the way you present. I have to tell you though the obnoxious mouse click sound every time you add text is really annoying. It may seem cute but has made me leave some of the vids.
Other than sound effects keep up the great work
Thanks for the feedback!
EG4 says not to hook up a portable generator to this inverter. The GEN part of these inverters is for a whole house generator like a Generac or similar. The power from portable generators is too trashy. This is exactly why EG4 made the Chargeverter.
Bonding is ONLY at the main panel!! If you bond after that in the sub-panels, you are risking major electrocution. Grounding wire and neutral needs to remain separate after the main panel!
You created an earth loop with two or more bonding points.
You also probably have other load problems as well that you discover as you change loads over time.
It might be time to do an electricians course or get a professional contractor to set things up for you. There's a reason for these professionals. You just discovered one small gotcha.
The next hidden gotcha which will take a few years for you to figure out by the time it raises its ugly head is electrochemical corrosion where you use fasteners and clamps with dissimilar metals and rain / damp conditions over many years. Lots of other hidden gothchas.
BTW your general wiring harnesses and distribution boards are works of art. Beautiful, you should be proud. Im impressed with the care you've put into your wiring setup.
Minor glitches your finding. You'll solve them and end up with a great system.
Get a professional electrician to sort out your system.
Note: make sure your Generator is a clean sign wave Generator, because there are dirty sign wave Generators that destroy delicate electronic s!
Inverter Generators are the safest to use!
Learning something today ❤
I just found out about this a few weeks ago, though, I do not have a generator. This information has been floating around YT for years.
Not a bonding issue, its a floating neutral issue, you may not have had any issues giving you the thought that you fixed it, but its still a floating neutral issue.
No floating neutrals. It was the double bond. No issues since.
Everything is speculation because we are missing a lot of information. There are several ways to hook up a generator with several different bonding options. It matters what configuration is used for where the bonding should happen. Just off what information was given, I suspect an issue elsewhere. Was a transfer switch being used?
Always use inverter generator, especially with all these new devices. Open frames will do this to modern appliances.
Thank you for that helpful information
I don't think it's a ground bonding fault. While it's true that only one grounding star point should exist it's usually no problem to have more than one unless the bond is behind a RCD which will trigger the RCD. Hooking up a generator to a solar inverter isn't always a good idea unless the inverter is made for generator operation like e.g. the Victron inverters. The best idea might be to have a buffer battery and charge that from the generator in a seperate AC circuit which just powers the charger. This will allow for a smaller more efficient generator and avoid "dirty" generstor AC power entering sensitive devices in your house.
Thanks