I was initially impressed by the SwinSID Nano but to my musical ear soon realised how bad it actually was. Not only is the pitch off - some of my favourite SID's sound like Roland does in our video, or scratchy or just messed up. I actually put the original SID with a dodgey filter back in my C64 in preference to the SwinSID Nano.
Yeah, the pitch is a little off. There are better alternatives like the ARMSID but it's not open source so it's harder to come by and it's more expensive (you have to order it from Poland I believe). Eventually, all the real SIDs will die, I suspect the majority of them have already failed in some way (judging by the number of C64 boards you see for sale on eBay that don't have them, and the high price of actual SIDs). So things like the SwinSID are much more preferable than having no SID at all, if its the best you can do.
I wasn't ready for how Rod-Land sounded on the SwinSID o_O also both Turricans, yikes. I might get one SwinSID as a backup, but definitely not going to use it on my main machine
Nobody was ready for that. But other people have said that they don't get the same problem. The SwinSID is not the best, but it's definitely better than no SID at all.
@@DavePoo2 Looks like a hardware issue or an older firmware. Having some lying around here, Rodland in 8580 mode it sounds spot on, 6581 mode it misses some notes (which is expected as it misses some features of the original SID's) but no noise like in the video. Turrican in 8580 mode sounds spot on again and in 6581 its a bit bass heavy.
Ouch, the nano SwinSID was really struggling with Rodland there. Must be the mixed waveforms, I know from my own experience that doing a combination of two waves works differently on 6581 and 8580 so something similar seems to be happening there. Otherwise the nano has quite a punchy sound and puts across the SID music well. Great video.
They did quite a few revisions, they all had slight differences I think. But I never knew that back in the day as I had one C64 and it stayed working for a very long time.
the 8580 has much more resolution but it depends on the developer because the filters are different. i guess the filters of the 6581 are off compared to the data sheet but the 8580 filters are not. so, for music with heavy filter usage, one of the SIDs always has to fail.
I would say so, but that may only mostly be because a lot of the old software that was written and tested on those chips. However, it's not all plain sailing with the 6581 because that chip is now the oldest of all the C64 chips and is quite failure prone (it runs very hot on 12v), so they are getting more and more scarce and eventually i think will not exist anymore. I would bet that there are more working C64's than there are 6581 chips to put in them, so not enough to go around. The price of working 6581 chips is very high on ebay etc. The 8580 is still old, but more reliable (it runs on 9v instead of 12v and doesn't get hotter than the fires of hell), however eventually, those chips may also start get in short supply. The nano SwinSID is not quite as good, but it is cheap, available and it is possible for that chip and others like it to improve to the point where they are as good as (or better than) original SID chips.
I agree, the scratchy sound is a trick they used and many games use it, it does not come out right on other SID versions. It is like a click when the gain is increased, it makes a waveform if pulsed that is used quite a bit, this is from a flaw that sadly was corrected in the 8580.
Nice comparisons. I had both the C64 and C64C and, in turn both SID variations. I grew up with the 6581 and enjoy its warmer, grungier sound, but modern demos and games sound better on the 8580 which has a fuller, bassier tone overall.
I also grew up with the 6581. I wasn't really aware that the new C64C was very different (until modern times). There would have been tunes that were authored on the 8580, so they would have sounded better on that chip.
excellent video this is the same as listening to music on a Commodore 64 and 64C (I have the 64 and 64c "Argentine" version of Dream) and listening to it in an emulator instantly you realize how horrible it sounds in an emulator and how beautiful it sounds in a real machine
Nothing beats the real thing, however that said, emulators now are getting very very good. The nano swin sid is good but is not like the real thing, and not as good as the emulation that you get in programs like VICE. The commenters are saying that the ArmSID is much better, but i haven't tried that yet.
in many ways I like the 8580 more as it's clearer with more headroom, but the grimy sound of the 6581 really shines on more bass driven sounds imo, and the swinSID.... wtf... 😖
No, i've not tried that. I got a nano SwinSID for the first time last week, so i thought i'd do this comparison. The ARMSID seems to be more expenisve than the nano, so hopefully you get a better sound reproduction for the extra money.
@@DavePoo2 I finally had a chance to try the ARMSID and Rodland. It sounded great, very close to my original SID. I then tried to reproduce your issue with my SwinSID nano, and I wasn't able to. The sound on Rodland, while not as good as the ARMSID, and quite a bit quieter, did sound normal. I didn't hear the same artifacts at all. I'm on an NTSC system; maybe that is part of it.
@@mdarschewski Very interesting. I think I will get an ARMSID, it seems to be the most accurate modern replacement. The Rodland mystery however continues. I haven't found any other music where is as messed up as that.
Nice comparison, think I prefer the 8580 or a new solution because less power, but original SID it sounds good also. I think on the original chip there are more variations in good and bad SID chips. Sometimes I replaced the chip on breadbin because it sounded bad and another 6581 sounded way better.
Yeah, there were quite a few variations of the 6581 which sounded slightly different. I think the 8580 is a very good chip, much of the love for the 6581 comes because it was the original and many games were written before the 8580 existed, so they were never tested or authored on it. Later on many Devs were using the newer chip, and those games often sound better on the new chip, or work well on both chips.
Including Vice (maybe in different emulation modes 6581/8580/filter settings) and ccs64 emulators next to these would be interesting. and including speech synthesis performance next to music, like from Impossible Mission (Another visitor...), Ghost Busters (he slimed me...) or Space Taxi (hey, taxi! ... pad three, please).
The speech might be a little weird as it's basically an exploit of undefined behavior in the SID, so the 8580 can't actually do it like the original did. The real test for emulation is that it behaves as well or as badly as the original, with unfortunately has to include undefined/undocumented behavior
I know, what's going on there? I haven't found any other music in any game that is messed up like that using the nano SwinSID. Rodland must be doing something unusual in that section of music.
Yep, but i actually like it in a way. It's cheap and i suppose possible for it to be improved over time. To be honest it doesn't do a bad job in some situations. So more choice is always a good thing with stuff like this. The C64 i have with the nano is better with it than with nothing (which is what it had before).
This is nice, but that 6581 did you used? The sound differencies between the different revisions of the 6581 is atleast same lage as between the 6581 and 8580
This is one of the better comparisons i've seen on youtube. Very easy to follow. I'd love to see more.
There is a video on my channel I did recently where I compare it to the ARMSID
SwimSID sounded like a wreak happened or something with some of these tracks 6581 surely did a great job
I'm old school, I prefer the 6581. It has a "warmer tone".
"warmer tone" = "more distortion". As for warmer, that is certainly the right word, that chip runs burning hot.
@@DavePoo2 😁
Still, it's the chip that I had in my bread box when I was a kid 😍
@@larscwallin Yep, it's the same one I had.
I was initially impressed by the SwinSID Nano but to my musical ear soon realised how bad it actually was. Not only is the pitch off - some of my favourite SID's sound like Roland does in our video, or scratchy or just messed up. I actually put the original SID with a dodgey filter back in my C64 in preference to the SwinSID Nano.
Yeah, the pitch is a little off. There are better alternatives like the ARMSID but it's not open source so it's harder to come by and it's more expensive (you have to order it from Poland I believe). Eventually, all the real SIDs will die, I suspect the majority of them have already failed in some way (judging by the number of C64 boards you see for sale on eBay that don't have them, and the high price of actual SIDs). So things like the SwinSID are much more preferable than having no SID at all, if its the best you can do.
Really nice video, thanks man.
I’m actually surprised over how well the swinSID sounds, especially in Turrican. I like it, it’s cheap and available
Yeah, it's not perfect but it is pretty good.
I wasn't ready for how Rod-Land sounded on the SwinSID o_O also both Turricans, yikes. I might get one SwinSID as a backup, but definitely not going to use it on my main machine
Nobody was ready for that. But other people have said that they don't get the same problem. The SwinSID is not the best, but it's definitely better than no SID at all.
@@DavePoo2 Looks like a hardware issue or an older firmware.
Having some lying around here, Rodland in 8580 mode it sounds spot on, 6581 mode it misses some notes (which is expected as it misses some features of the original SID's) but no noise like in the video. Turrican in 8580 mode sounds spot on again and in 6581 its a bit bass heavy.
Ouch, the nano SwinSID was really struggling with Rodland there. Must be the mixed waveforms, I know from my own experience that doing a combination of two waves works differently on 6581 and 8580 so something similar seems to be happening there. Otherwise the nano has quite a punchy sound and puts across the SID music well. Great video.
Yeah Roland was a mess. Someone else tried it and said it worked fine for them??
6510 was my favourite but i do remember that there was 2 version of it back in the days one of tem had better higher frequency than the other ❤
They did quite a few revisions, they all had slight differences I think. But I never knew that back in the day as I had one C64 and it stayed working for a very long time.
the 8580 has much more resolution but it depends on the developer because the filters are different. i guess the filters of the 6581 are off compared to the data sheet but the 8580 filters are not.
so, for music with heavy filter usage, one of the SIDs always has to fail.
I think turrican 2 sounds fantastic on the 8580.
6581 is the best one.
I would say so, but that may only mostly be because a lot of the old software that was written and tested on those chips. However, it's not all plain sailing with the 6581 because that chip is now the oldest of all the C64 chips and is quite failure prone (it runs very hot on 12v), so they are getting more and more scarce and eventually i think will not exist anymore. I would bet that there are more working C64's than there are 6581 chips to put in them, so not enough to go around. The price of working 6581 chips is very high on ebay etc. The 8580 is still old, but more reliable (it runs on 9v instead of 12v and doesn't get hotter than the fires of hell), however eventually, those chips may also start get in short supply. The nano SwinSID is not quite as good, but it is cheap, available and it is possible for that chip and others like it to improve to the point where they are as good as (or better than) original SID chips.
I agree, the scratchy sound is a trick they used and many games use it, it does not come out right on other SID versions. It is like a click when the gain is increased, it makes a waveform if pulsed that is used quite a bit, this is from a flaw that sadly was corrected in the 8580.
i think the difference other than the pseudo PCM isn't vast. Later games programmed with the 8580 in mind sound great on it.
@@rnrbishop Agreed, the 8580 sounds great.
I have 8580 in my 2 C64Cs. I think that Sid sounds the best for me :)
Yeah it sounds pretty good. I've noticed though in ghouls and ghosts that part of the music is missing from the titles and in game
@@DavePoo2 Time to install SIDFX with a MOS6581R4AR on one side and a late version MOS8580 on other side!
So, 6581 still da best 👍
2:32 That's why you should ONLY rely on ORIGINAL hardware for C64 audio, not some fancy modern take.
Until all the original hardware has expired
Nice comparisons. I had both the C64 and C64C and, in turn both SID variations. I grew up with the 6581 and enjoy its warmer, grungier sound, but modern demos and games sound better on the 8580 which has a fuller, bassier tone overall.
I also grew up with the 6581. I wasn't really aware that the new C64C was very different (until modern times). There would have been tunes that were authored on the 8580, so they would have sounded better on that chip.
excellent video this is the same as listening to music on a Commodore 64 and 64C (I have the 64 and 64c "Argentine" version of Dream) and listening to it in an emulator instantly you realize how horrible it sounds in an emulator and how beautiful it sounds in a real machine
Nothing beats the real thing, however that said, emulators now are getting very very good. The nano swin sid is good but is not like the real thing, and not as good as the emulation that you get in programs like VICE. The commenters are saying that the ArmSID is much better, but i haven't tried that yet.
in many ways I like the 8580 more as it's clearer with more headroom, but the grimy sound of the 6581 really shines on more bass driven sounds imo, and the swinSID.... wtf... 😖
Very interesting! Great vid!
Thanks
Have you tried out an ARMSID yet? I'd love to hear that in this comparison too. It seems very close to an original SID to my ears.
No, i've not tried that. I got a nano SwinSID for the first time last week, so i thought i'd do this comparison. The ARMSID seems to be more expenisve than the nano, so hopefully you get a better sound reproduction for the extra money.
Give Rodland a try on it and see if has that same messed up music on the titles.
@@DavePoo2 I finally had a chance to try the ARMSID and Rodland. It sounded great, very close to my original SID. I then tried to reproduce your issue with my SwinSID nano, and I wasn't able to. The sound on Rodland, while not as good as the ARMSID, and quite a bit quieter, did sound normal. I didn't hear the same artifacts at all. I'm on an NTSC system; maybe that is part of it.
@@mdarschewski Very interesting. I think I will get an ARMSID, it seems to be the most accurate modern replacement. The Rodland mystery however continues. I haven't found any other music where is as messed up as that.
Any idea if your swinSID nano is running the “Lazy Fix” firmware update? That was supposed to have fixed a lot of stuff.
Something sounds "wrong" on the nano SwinSID. The 6581 is what i hear in my mind when remember the themes
Yep, the Nano is far from perfect, but it's better than no SID at all.
Nice comparison, think I prefer the 8580 or a new solution because less power, but original SID it sounds good also. I think on the original chip there are more variations in good and bad SID chips. Sometimes I replaced the chip on breadbin because it sounded bad and another 6581 sounded way better.
Yeah, there were quite a few variations of the 6581 which sounded slightly different. I think the 8580 is a very good chip, much of the love for the 6581 comes because it was the original and many games were written before the 8580 existed, so they were never tested or authored on it. Later on many Devs were using the newer chip, and those games often sound better on the new chip, or work well on both chips.
Including Vice (maybe in different emulation modes 6581/8580/filter settings) and ccs64 emulators next to these would be interesting. and including speech synthesis performance next to music, like from Impossible Mission (Another visitor...), Ghost Busters (he slimed me...) or Space Taxi (hey, taxi! ... pad three, please).
The speech might be a little weird as it's basically an exploit of undefined behavior in the SID, so the 8580 can't actually do it like the original did. The real test for emulation is that it behaves as well or as badly as the original, with unfortunately has to include undefined/undocumented behavior
6581. the price. loool
he bass, bass of the sid are devastating
only comparable to musical synthesizers
But how to disable the bubble-effect?
La differenza qualitativa di suono dei 3 sid e' trascurabile,un suono molto buono
Apart from Rodland, which got really messed up by the SwinSID
thanks, very interesting
Aaaargh, Rodland 😂
I know, what's going on there? I haven't found any other music in any game that is messed up like that using the nano SwinSID. Rodland must be doing something unusual in that section of music.
Nano is the worst choice for sid emulation. The best was the SwinSid Ultimate(no longer available), but now the Arm2Sid is the best solution.
Yep, but i actually like it in a way. It's cheap and i suppose possible for it to be improved over time. To be honest it doesn't do a bad job in some situations. So more choice is always a good thing with stuff like this. The C64 i have with the nano is better with it than with nothing (which is what it had before).
This is nice, but that 6581 did you used? The sound differencies between the different revisions of the 6581 is atleast same lage as between the 6581 and 8580
Not sure, there is a heatsink on the 6581 now. It's the SID in this video th-cam.com/video/BXu1KgJjSUU/w-d-xo.html
place 1:6581 & 8580
place 3: nano SwinSID
Unless you rank them by price or availability, in which case the SwinSID is the winner in both of those categories.
@@DavePoo2 i was referring to sound quality
Nano bad have a poor sound, I prefer 6581 .....8580 less distortions but I love distortions... :)
Nice job !!
the nano SwinSID seems off pitch, strange
edit: oh yeah it's totally sharp
Yeah it does
SwinSID is about 15% higher pitched than the other two
Although I have to say that both of the Turrican game intros sound better on it than the normal SID chips. That bass... wow
@@ShwappaJ Yeah, the SwinSID is a bit hit and miss depending on what game/music you are listening to. Either way, it's better than no SID at all.
SIDKICK suena mejor, no es 100% pero creo que es mucho mejor opcion que SwinSID
The nano not only sounds bad but out of tune 😳
Yeah, it does appear to be struggling
SwinSID wins the participation trophy
It does. I actually think it's a neat little chip. I've done another video with a comparison of the Nano SwinSID and the ARMSID
I've ordered one to try it out / have as a backup in case my 6581 goes south!