Ohm Walsh speakers are made to be placed only 18 inches from the wall and are praised for their wide and deep sound stage and imaging. Also due to their unique design the whole room is the sweet spot .They offer a free 120 day at home trial.
@@lynnpoole7830 That is true they sell parts or upgrades for every speaker they ever sold. I should also mention that you can trade them in and they will give you the original list price toward the purchase of new speakers.
Experimemtation with loudspeaker toeing-in and positioning still reaps rewards. A younger (under 25) audiophile acquaintance of mine literally jumped for joy after his pushing and pulling his speakers to his preferred ideal condition resulted in a soundstage that even mediocre recordings - i.e. Sex Pistols - started to sound as if the band is playing in his listening room.
Am exception are some Klipsch speakers. Cornwalls sound better near wall boundaries in many instances and actual create a forward sound stage. The horn projects sound in a different way. I initially placed my Cornwall's in the usual place I put all the other speakers I owned. They didn't sound right. I moved them all over the room for months. Finally, I tried them in corner where many people recommend them and they completely transformed. Now I was getting the scale I read about, now the speakers sound alive. Instruments pop out of the recordings.
I have a fantastic sound stage with my Klipschorns. They’re pretty much foolproof. As long as the room allows for proper spacing between them you’re always going to end up with a nice soundstage/ disappearing act. That’s been my experience with them anyway. Best speakers ever built in my opinion. 75 years in production says it all😉
An audio engineer once mentioned that the speakers used for a final listening to a recording was a small transistor radio. This was back in the 60's & early 70's, when most music listeners were listening to AM radio. Then in 1974? Panasonic introduced "THE BLASTER" with a 6" midrange speaker radio...and the rest is history.
The Rolling Stones mixed singles from 'Exile on Main Street' to a small radio because that's what the fans would be using, maybe the exact story you are referencing Walter.
Talking about the illusion, i find it helps with my nearfield listening by closing my eyes. I find the sound fills in, and spreads out. And I definitely think you got it right about your mind telling you this isn't possible.
I have a pair of original (and fully rebuilt) Wharfedale "Column 8" speakers. Yes, they're a little bass shy but they were never meant to be tub thumpers. They provide a magnificent soundstage no matter where they are placed. It's just the nature of well designed vertically firing speakers.
May I add? As I have understood it for a number of years.... A soundstage is ELECTRONICALLY created by the engineers with a mixing console! Thats right, multiple mono channels 'arranged' to create source locations between the speakers and additional studio 'toys' to add to the artificial 'illusion'. NOT true stereo. It is the term 'stereo image' that should mean the most to us. These recordings would be created with just two channels in a natural space using natural room acoustics with NO effects what so ever. Great for jazz, orchestral, choral and PIPE ORGAN performances! THIS techique, though much more time consuming and EXPENSIVE - (its all about the $$$) would certainly give our systems a better chance at the 'dissapearing' act. Just look back when Mr. Atkinson brought his 3 tracks to the IRS-V system in a previous video, I would bet, that was one of, if not the most 'revealing' presentations heard in that listening room. And so, again, I ask for Octave Records to capture their fine musicians/artists in TRUE STEREO and let us hear what DSD can really do ! Back the two microphones AWAY from the performers and let the music breath into the recording space. (O:
There are recordings made like what you describe. I don't know every label, but you could try Chesky, Mapleshade, Waterlilly Acoustics, and maybe some of the old Bluenote recordings. : )
The space behind the speakers is used as reverb, Paul puts rear facing speakers in his boxes for this end...soundstage is just reverberation from the back/wall room added to give the music that 3d sense (because it literally is). It is a cheap trick, but a good one, as I understand it.
Different music needs different room optimization to sound its best. Thus, it's always important to not fall into the trap to tune your setup against music you don't actually listen to but rather focus the tuning to your most favorite music. If you enjoy listening to Pink Floyd, Dire Straits and such music and tune your system against some Diana Krall live concert tracks, you might get it slightly wrong.
Roy Allison, back in the 70s, built some very fine speakers designed to go right up next to the wall. But Paul is so correct…you must design the speaker specifically for that placement for it to shine!
i had what i thought was a nice soundstage. singer was front & center. drummer behind, instruments left & right. then i bought a DirectStream DAC. *oh my goodness!* . the soundstage underwent a Dr. Bruce Banner _transformation_ . it became wider than the room, taller than the room....and deeper than the room. i listened to an album id heard hundreds of times. after the 1st song, i hit pause and held my head. i couldnt fully grasp the 'reality'. soundstage is real. *very real* . if you can, get a DirectStream DAC. but hold onto your head.
if you wanna put them right next to the wall, choose speakers that are sealed / front port / front passive radiator treble needs space arround the cabinat anyway, but at least you save the bass and midrange or you can stuff the port ( if it's rear ported ) 🙂
Hi Paul, another great video. Given 95% of us don't have the space to place speakers away from the wall why are 95% of speakers designed that way? Thanks!
I think you can make a speaker sound good when placed close to the wall, provided that speaker has a dsp and an active room correction functionality. That way it can drastically reduce the negative effects of a speaker close to a wall. Also why are speaker companies making speakers which sound better when away from the wall, whereas the actual use case for most users is that they will be placing their speakers up against the wall to maximise space in their room.
I tried with the DSP, Anthem Room Correction, with speakers around the room. Soundstage is much better with speakers as far away from front and side walls as possible, with or without DSP.
Pretty good video on the boundary effects, but you should discuss soffit mounting as described by the question in another video. Soffit mounting is often better than any other method when possible.
The only case when we can obtain both, free space in the room attaching loudspeakers to the wall and soundstage is in a multichannel set up. Look a the movie theatres. The Center channel makes possible this even out of the sweet spot. Two channel or stereo can be astonishing but the whole space where the loudspeakers are deployed and the listening position must be above everything else.
With regard to your comment about speakers needing to be placed away from the front wall, were vintage speakers from the 50’s and 60’s design for the same placement?
I'll happily drag my speakers 2 metres from the wall when I have a room that's 2 metres larger all round, I live in a modest house, not a castle. I understand the idea, but it's just about impossible in the average living space with annoying things like sofas and chairs 🤷♂️
Of course dipoles like these need lots of space behind, but plenty British speakers are voiced for smaller rooms where they need to sit within 2ft of the wall. The kef LS50s Paul has at home are supplied with Port plugs for this purpose. (Someone needs to straighten that rubber mat, Paul;-)
The CDs with Roger Waters just have the best soundstage of them all. Mainly his own albums but even when he was "The Half Brain" in Pink Floyd. Yes, half, I think the other 4 members together shares on the other half.
If most recording studios don't care about sound stage, how does this become an attribute in the recording that we can dig out using better speaker placement? Does the sound stage happen without most recording engineers being aware of it? I think I may be missing something here. Interested to hear views.
The term “BOOKSHELVES” speakers were/are/remain the biggest misnomer hiding so called “sound stage”. Speakers need a smaller scale of distance from a back wall/bookshelf to reproduce a spacial recording in the room it’s played.
Some of the better "bookshelf" speakers have been carefully designed to sound best when placed on a shelf with other objects flush with the front of the speaker cabinet, and possibly close to a side wall, too. Problem: Finding out which speakers those are.
Hi guys, if you place speakers a few feet away from the front wall, you'll get a dip in bass region (SBIR) where wall treatment is quite ineffective. Any solutions, ideas...? Thanks.
I've seen people make their speakers disappear. By putting them underneath a cabinet on the floor. Hey they can still hear them so what's the problem.......
This is classic. This video proves Paul's cables are an "illusion". Same with his power plants. His turd analogy proved it! Notice he says...plain chocolate is divine and turd shaped will mess with your head even though it is the same thing and should taste exactly the same. Let's say PS Audio claims their power cables and power plants are audio nirvana. Now someone just messed with your head....they have you thinking....it sounds so much better. Now you are thinking...it sounds so much better. But wait...does it really? Mind fing you. Yet....you are getting scammed.....placebo effect. Good one Paul. Good one .
I don't mush depth only about 3 feet with my Home theater but sound great working rear surround sound Is better too better then what they say on doing for Home theater.
@4:35 -- "And then, you make it look like a turd" @4:44 -- "ehhh! That's disgusting!" Paul, I did the same experiment. But instead of having the chocolate look like a turd, I had it look like Rosie O'Donnell's meat sack. Was it worse than the turd? You be the judge.
I’d argue that most audiophile speaker manufacturers don’t design their speakers for audiophiles neither. They design them for people living in the US or Australia, where small and medium sized families live in houses the size of a B&B. Most of the rest of the world and thus market share, lives in vastly smaller houses and rooms, where there’s no other option than placing your speakers as much against the wall as possible. I’m a middle class Belgian (household income of around $6.000 net) and as most audiophiles here, I’m still waiting for the day audiophile speaker manufacturers learn from companies like Bose, Sonos, etc, that for the vast majority of possible buyers, your speakers need to designed to go up against the wall. I don’t really understand why so many companies just ignore such a big market opportunity…
I highly recommend a sealed speaker , not only do they play well against walls, the bass is more even ,and the transients are faster. Many exist from a whole bunch of excellent manufactures at varying prices
Placement is sooo NOT snake oil. It makes a huuuge difference. Get the loudspeakers AND your head, far away from the front and back walls, just try it, you'll see...
I'm really surprise to see how many people just don't understand anything about soundstage. First... the soundstage is made by your brain. It's not a fake stuff in your head, it's just the felling you have when your brain rebuild the soundstage to let you understand where does the sound come from. Because the system is in a room, with walls, the sound bounce all around you and come to you with a little delay. The brain mix this delay with the music and tells you the sound come from here or there. But, because the sound is the result of all the echos, your brain is fooled in is natural ability to detect sound position precisely and give you incorrect position answers. This way you can clearly have the feeling the music come from outside the room, or from behind you. It's all fake but it's your brain. So when you read : these speakers disapear so well... it's wrong, the speakers can't disapear by themselves, they need the room to give you this feeling. The more you add space between the speakers and the back wall, the more you create a strong delay witch create the feeling of a spacious soundstage... Soundstage is the way you manage energy around your system. It's all about reflections and delay.
Always, always stop at "technically". As soon as you hear "however" right after "technically" then you know you are about to enter the weird world of Audiophile Bullshit. Speaker placement undeniably affects how you hear your system - it's common sense after all - but "soundstage" as a concept takes huge liberties with reality. Hankering after some perceived "ideal" is just baloney. Use some common sense in the placement of your speakers (ie not tucked into a corner, not against a wall, and not turned away from you) and it will sound fine. Go down the rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect place for your speakers/listening position, edging them several feet into the room, finding the perfect triangle, seeking a nebulous sonically perfect soundstage, wasting money on a BOOK to tell you what you hear, and you'll just up end wasting money, effort and, most importantly, listening time in the pursuit of something that no artist ever thought you'd be doing, no mastering technician ever expected you to do.
dont like the look of those speakers, must be some type of array speaker, but id never put those ugly speakers in my listening area no matter how good they sound.
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Ohm Walsh speakers are made to be placed only 18 inches from the wall and are praised for their wide and deep sound stage and imaging. Also due to their unique design the whole room is the sweet spot .They offer a free 120 day at home trial.
Yep. If memory serves they also refurbish older speakers.
@@lynnpoole7830 That is true they sell parts or upgrades for every speaker they ever sold. I should also mention that you can trade them in and they will give you the original list price toward the purchase of new speakers.
My listening room is only 18 inches long
I sent in a request for Paul to talk about Ohm speakers about a year ago.
@@chrisgoodson9312 you need to find something other than a closet for a listening room.
Experimemtation with loudspeaker toeing-in and positioning still reaps rewards. A younger (under 25) audiophile acquaintance of mine literally jumped for joy after his pushing and pulling his speakers to his preferred ideal condition resulted in a soundstage that even mediocre recordings - i.e. Sex Pistols - started to sound as if the band is playing in his listening room.
Am exception are some Klipsch speakers. Cornwalls sound better near wall boundaries in many instances and actual create a forward sound stage. The horn projects sound in a different way. I initially placed my Cornwall's in the usual place I put all the other speakers I owned. They didn't sound right. I moved them all over the room for months. Finally, I tried them in corner where many people recommend them and they completely transformed. Now I was getting the scale I read about, now the speakers sound alive. Instruments pop out of the recordings.
I have a fantastic sound stage with my Klipschorns. They’re pretty much foolproof. As long as the room allows for proper spacing between them you’re always going to end up with a nice soundstage/ disappearing act. That’s been my experience with them anyway. Best speakers ever built in my opinion. 75 years in production says it all😉
Thank you Paul. There’s your answer. Listen, blindfolded. No difficulties there with the illusion!
An audio engineer once mentioned that the speakers used for a final listening to a recording was a small transistor radio. This was back in the 60's & early 70's, when most music listeners were listening to AM radio. Then in 1974? Panasonic introduced "THE BLASTER" with a 6" midrange speaker radio...and the rest is history.
The Rolling Stones mixed singles from 'Exile on Main Street' to a small radio because that's what the fans would be using, maybe the exact story you are referencing Walter.
If Paul can make those giant speakers disappear, he has created a hell of a soundstage
Instance 100 of Paul comparing music to food 😂
Talking about the illusion, i find it helps with my nearfield listening by closing my eyes. I find the sound fills in, and spreads out. And I definitely think you got it right about your mind telling you this isn't possible.
I have a pair of original (and fully rebuilt) Wharfedale "Column 8" speakers. Yes, they're a little bass shy but they were never meant to be tub thumpers. They provide a magnificent soundstage no matter where they are placed. It's just the nature of well designed vertically firing speakers.
May I add?
As I have understood it for a number of years.... A soundstage is ELECTRONICALLY created by the engineers with a mixing console! Thats right, multiple mono channels 'arranged' to create source locations between the speakers and additional studio 'toys' to add to the artificial 'illusion'. NOT true stereo.
It is the term 'stereo image' that should mean the most to us. These recordings would be created with just two channels in a natural space using natural room acoustics with NO effects what so ever. Great for jazz, orchestral, choral and PIPE ORGAN performances!
THIS techique, though much more time consuming and EXPENSIVE - (its all about the $$$) would certainly give our systems a better chance at the 'dissapearing' act. Just look back when Mr. Atkinson brought his 3 tracks to the IRS-V system in a previous video, I would bet, that was one of, if not the most 'revealing' presentations heard in that listening room.
And so, again, I ask for Octave Records to capture their fine musicians/artists in TRUE STEREO and let us hear what DSD can really do ! Back the two microphones AWAY from the performers and let the music breath into the recording space. (O:
There are recordings made like what you describe.
I don't know every label, but you could try Chesky, Mapleshade, Waterlilly Acoustics, and maybe some of the old Bluenote recordings. : )
@@HareDeLune Thank you, I LOVE Chesky. Have some of David's orchestral recordings. Really gives the feeling of 'being there' when listening (O:
@@garysmith8455
You're quite welcome!
I hope you will find more music to enjoy.
@@HareDeLune Excellent ! I sure will (O:
The space behind the speakers is used as reverb, Paul puts rear facing speakers in his boxes for this end...soundstage is just reverberation from the back/wall room added to give the music that 3d sense (because it literally is). It is a cheap trick, but a good one, as I understand it.
Watching this on the toilet. Thanks Paul
Different music needs different room optimization to sound its best. Thus, it's always important to not fall into the trap to tune your setup against music you don't actually listen to but rather focus the tuning to your most favorite music. If you enjoy listening to Pink Floyd, Dire Straits and such music and tune your system against some Diana Krall live concert tracks, you might get it slightly wrong.
Roy Allison, back in the 70s, built some very fine speakers designed to go right up next to the wall. But Paul is so correct…you must design the speaker specifically for that placement for it to shine!
Ohm Walsh omnidirectional speakers are designed to be placed near the wall.
One of the rare few.
Paul talk about examples . How the hell will anyone forget this now . Thank you for dropping me from chocolate heaven to …..
i had what i thought was a nice soundstage. singer was front & center. drummer behind, instruments left & right.
then i bought a DirectStream DAC. *oh my goodness!* .
the soundstage underwent a Dr. Bruce Banner _transformation_ .
it became wider than the room, taller than the room....and deeper than the room.
i listened to an album id heard hundreds of times.
after the 1st song, i hit pause and held my head.
i couldnt fully grasp the 'reality'.
soundstage is real. *very real* .
if you can, get a DirectStream DAC. but hold onto your head.
Audio Note speakers are world renowned super high end and are meant to be placed not only close to the front wall but towards the corners.
Do they come with an equalizer to roll off the bass? :)
@@dhpbear2 No they don’t need one
if you wanna put them right next to the wall, choose speakers that are sealed / front port / front passive radiator
treble needs space arround the cabinat anyway, but at least you save the bass and midrange
or you can stuff the port ( if it's rear ported )
🙂
Chocolate Turds. Wasn't that a punkrock band back in the 80's?
'Caddyshack' pool scene. 😁
If you look at a plate of food that is beautifully prepared and perfectly placed on the plate you know fingers have been all over it.
Hi Paul, another great video. Given 95% of us don't have the space to place speakers away from the wall why are 95% of speakers designed that way? Thanks!
try anti reflectors on the wall that will help
I think you can make a speaker sound good when placed close to the wall, provided that speaker has a dsp and an active room correction functionality. That way it can drastically reduce the negative effects of a speaker close to a wall.
Also why are speaker companies making speakers which sound better when away from the wall, whereas the actual use case for most users is that they will be placing their speakers up against the wall to maximise space in their room.
I tried with the DSP, Anthem Room Correction, with speakers around the room. Soundstage is much better with speakers as far away from front and side walls as possible, with or without DSP.
I had my b&w 683 s2 for some years and could never get them to dissapear, my new 702 s2 can really dissapear in the music witch i like a lot,
Pretty good video on the boundary effects, but you should discuss soffit mounting as described by the question in another video. Soffit mounting is often better than any other method when possible.
Could the depth and sound stage requirement also come from the fact the "band" is not recorded up against the wall?
The only case when we can obtain both, free space in the room attaching loudspeakers to the wall and soundstage is in a multichannel set up. Look a the movie theatres.
The Center channel makes possible this even out of the sweet spot.
Two channel or stereo can be astonishing but the whole space where the loudspeakers are deployed and the listening position must be above everything else.
With regard to your comment about speakers needing to be placed away from the front wall, were vintage speakers from the 50’s and 60’s design for the same placement?
I'll happily drag my speakers 2 metres from the wall when I have a room that's 2 metres larger all round, I live in a modest house, not a castle. I understand the idea, but it's just about impossible in the average living space with annoying things like sofas and chairs 🤷♂️
Me Too. The soundstage also extends beyond the outer edges pof the speakers but I have found less of this phenomenon with planar speakers.
You can tell when Paul makes a video close to dinner time. 🍰🍪
Of course dipoles like these need lots of space behind, but plenty British speakers are voiced for smaller rooms where they need to sit within 2ft of the wall.
The kef LS50s Paul has at home are supplied with Port plugs for this purpose.
(Someone needs to straighten that rubber mat, Paul;-)
The CDs with Roger Waters just have the best soundstage of them all. Mainly his own albums but even when he was "The Half Brain" in Pink Floyd.
Yes, half, I think the other 4 members together shares on the other half.
The Q-Sound process of Roger Waters' Amused to Death will literally make your speakers dissapear.
@@laurentzduba1298 His "Pros And Cons of Hitchhiking" from 1984, and also from the USA-Master, is equally fabulous.
If most recording studios don't care about sound stage, how does this become an attribute in the recording that we can dig out using better speaker placement? Does the sound stage happen without most recording engineers being aware of it? I think I may be missing something here. Interested to hear views.
Wonderful explanation thank you.
The term “BOOKSHELVES” speakers were/are/remain the biggest misnomer hiding so called “sound stage”. Speakers need a smaller scale of distance from a back wall/bookshelf to reproduce a spacial recording in the room it’s played.
If you want against the wall you need to look for a speaker that has a - 10 db roll-off at 20 Hz
Some of the better "bookshelf" speakers have been carefully designed to sound best
when placed on a shelf with other objects flush with the front of the speaker cabinet,
and possibly close to a side wall, too.
Problem: Finding out which speakers those are.
Best analogy ever 🤣
Hi guys, if you place speakers a few feet away from the front wall, you'll get a dip in bass region (SBIR) where wall treatment is quite ineffective. Any solutions, ideas...? Thanks.
I've seen people make their speakers disappear. By putting them underneath a cabinet on the floor. Hey they can still hear them so what's the problem.......
I'm afraid you don't understand the phrase "the speakers disappear " it's not visually but audibly 😂
@@salvadorrodenas3071 I am afraid you are the one not understanding my jest :-p
@@D1N02 I must surelly be the one and only😂😉
Salvador Rodenas 😂
This is classic. This video proves Paul's cables are an "illusion". Same with his power plants. His turd analogy proved it! Notice he says...plain chocolate is divine and turd shaped will mess with your head even though it is the same thing and should taste exactly the same. Let's say PS Audio claims their power cables and power plants are audio nirvana. Now someone just messed with your head....they have you thinking....it sounds so much better. Now you are thinking...it sounds so much better. But wait...does it really? Mind fing you. Yet....you are getting scammed.....placebo effect. Good one Paul. Good one
.
I don't mush depth only about 3 feet with my Home theater but sound great working rear surround sound Is better too better then what they say on doing for Home theater.
Lol that was beautiful man 😂
The expectation or placebo is a big thing.Its what make people by stuff with no proven effect,like cabel etc.....
@4:35 -- "And then, you make it look like a turd"
@4:44 -- "ehhh! That's disgusting!"
Paul, I did the same experiment. But instead of having the chocolate look like a turd, I had it look like Rosie O'Donnell's meat sack.
Was it worse than the turd? You be the judge.
My dog be lovin' that chocolate turd.
I’d argue that most audiophile speaker manufacturers don’t design their speakers for audiophiles neither. They design them for people living in the US or Australia, where small and medium sized families live in houses the size of a B&B. Most of the rest of the world and thus market share, lives in vastly smaller houses and rooms, where there’s no other option than placing your speakers as much against the wall as possible.
I’m a middle class Belgian (household income of around $6.000 net) and as most audiophiles here, I’m still waiting for the day audiophile speaker manufacturers learn from companies like Bose, Sonos, etc, that for the vast majority of possible buyers, your speakers need to designed to go up against the wall. I don’t really understand why so many companies just ignore such a big market opportunity…
I highly recommend a sealed speaker , not only do they play well against walls, the bass is more even ,and the transients are faster.
Many exist from a whole bunch of excellent manufactures at varying prices
6 thousand per month? That's good! Above average. You could buy a house in the country.
Placement is sooo NOT snake oil. It makes a huuuge difference. Get the loudspeakers AND your head, far away from the front and back walls, just try it, you'll see...
That room sounds a little bright and bouncy on this video.
still trying to sell your records and book then
i guess thats what my 31 band eq is for but i never listen to any classical just rock county and every now and again a piano
grrrrrr... depends on the recording studio!!! 😂 🎛
I'm really surprise to see how many people just don't understand anything about soundstage.
First... the soundstage is made by your brain. It's not a fake stuff in your head, it's just the felling you have when your brain rebuild the soundstage to let you understand where does the sound come from. Because the system is in a room, with walls, the sound bounce all around you and come to you with a little delay. The brain mix this delay with the music and tells you the sound come from here or there. But, because the sound is the result of all the echos, your brain is fooled in is natural ability to detect sound position precisely and give you incorrect position answers. This way you can clearly have the feeling the music come from outside the room, or from behind you. It's all fake but it's your brain.
So when you read : these speakers disapear so well... it's wrong, the speakers can't disapear by themselves, they need the room to give you this feeling.
The more you add space between the speakers and the back wall, the more you create a strong delay witch create the feeling of a spacious soundstage...
Soundstage is the way you manage energy around your system. It's all about reflections and delay.
Always, always stop at "technically". As soon as you hear "however" right after "technically" then you know you are about to enter the weird world of Audiophile Bullshit. Speaker placement undeniably affects how you hear your system - it's common sense after all - but "soundstage" as a concept takes huge liberties with reality. Hankering after some perceived "ideal" is just baloney. Use some common sense in the placement of your speakers (ie not tucked into a corner, not against a wall, and not turned away from you) and it will sound fine. Go down the rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect place for your speakers/listening position, edging them several feet into the room, finding the perfect triangle, seeking a nebulous sonically perfect soundstage, wasting money on a BOOK to tell you what you hear, and you'll just up end wasting money, effort and, most importantly, listening time in the pursuit of something that no artist ever thought you'd be doing, no mastering technician ever expected you to do.
Depth.
I would still eat chocolate if it looked like a turd.
But not the other way round eh?!😀
Chocolate turds - lol
No DSP? 1970 called, they want their speakers back....
dont like the look of those speakers, must be some type of array speaker, but id never put those ugly speakers in my listening area no matter how good they sound.