Completely agree with 2007 being the big transition. Gone were the dinosaurs like Boxer, Nada, Reach, Oov, Savior, and Yellow and in came TaekBangLeeSsang. Ive mentioned this on your channel before but Julyzerg is the only guy to ever win a starleague before and after that Bisu Savior finals.
this isnt true about starcraft or basketball or any other place people try to compare today to yesterday. millions of games were played to figure out what works and what doesnt. different things available today that were not there or were more limited yesterday, change what can be done. players were not suddenly being bred for starcraft and surpassing those before them. there is too much minutiae between today and yesterday and the day before...to legitimately compare them. to use a starcraft 2 example, its like saying zerg players used to be shit for not going vipers back in wings of liberty (in b4 someone doesnt get it)
@@wargumbyx If you consider along the lines of a players character Its similar. Nothing in gods universe is comparable cause and effect=Change and that endlessly goes as we all know....🤷♂️ Nothings above or below this rule. But as Flash himself said. "I work hard" Kobe Bryant was also a hard worker=Both similar. Flash and countless others Agree Nada is the Bounjwah?(Idk if I spelled this correctly)=Mj. Not that Mj didn't work hard. But kobe himself also said Mj is Def the best ever. But most people agree Mj is the bounjwah of Basketball because he innovated moves no one had ever seen before=Nada's innovation of SC ppl had not seen before. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. It's not comparable yes but some things are undeniably similar and corresponding to experiences enjoyed apart of life.
@@wargumbyx But in this case, players had previously only lasted for a few years, whereas 2007 ushered in an era where the same group of new players could be great for 17 and counting. I remember it was a common belief in 2006-8 that only young players could be good at the game, and that anyone who hit 20 was basically already on their way out. And there are a lot of practical differences. Maps changed radically before slowly settling down around that time. 2v2 diminished in importance and disappeared. Islands were out. New techniques were perfected (e.g. muta micro). And the game got way faster. Players who _started_ in that era had less difficulty picking it up than experienced players who had learned a different way of playing the game. It's sort of like what happened in Classic Tetris, albeit less extreme. Many players who started in 2007 are still near the top today, but practically none from 2006 or earlier are. That's a way cleaner cutoff than the gradual pace of improvement in most sports.
These are the type of games that capture the spirit of StarCraft. The back and forth fighting, use of many types of units. This is the video im going to use to introduce people into SC!
Interesting fact: Nada for a long bits of the game kept rocking 400+ apm, even hitting 460 at some point. And that was not during worker splitting when you can abuse it hard, it was in mid game, where he had to take care of 3-4 bases, army, 9 rax, upgs, supply and all that shit. He's old but still got that young NaDa apm (he was one of the fastest players back in the day). In this game, i guess his avg was around 370-390.
Nada making these games so much fun... the other games have been so optimised feels like seeing repeats... this is so fun, reminds me of old time legend game where things are going on all over the map constantly
Artosis, will you make a video explaining how play styles differed before and after 2007? I think it would be a really interesting SC history video. I have no knowledge about early SC.
re: the "modernization" of competitive starcraft and other tidbits 2007 also introduced the proleague schedule that we are accustomed to (games simultaneously played across two channels 5 days a week) so there was incentive for coaches/players to figure out how to play safe/boring as to not reveal strats for individual leagues. also i feel that maps modernized so much from 06-07 that it made expand openings the standard and not the exception. you definitely knew something was up if a player who's never qualified for an osl/msl randomly shows up on a proleague entry list. what i think is a testament to how talented nada was is that he took jangbi to 5 games in a msl quarter final in 2009; i remember at the time the perception was that nada was considered washed and way past his prime while jangbi was peaking as part of the six dragons era but he proved everyone wrong.
18:20 he simply stopped microing his army entirely. Didn't pull back from swarms, didn't cast a single ability from vessels. Just afk marines attacking swarmed ultras
I'm glad you mentioned the big strategic shift that happened around 2007. I've noticed the same thing, but I wasn't sure if it was just because I hadn't seen that many older games. That's around the time they started regularly microing mutas with an overlord, when modern-ish maps were used consistently, when one-base play almost went away completely, and when people finally retired some old builds that they had known were statistically bad for a while.
obviously Nadas strategies here are antiquated, but the tactical performance is superb, we can really see evidence of his genius here. specifically the DEFENSE MATRIX play was phenomenal this game. turns out defilers are just OP lol
It’s funny since many of these things were popularized in custom games back in the day, and now 20+ years later we’re celebrating the pro scene using them
Can we get more history lessons? Is there a year that marks the post-modern era with different styles, or is the only change nowadays compared to 2007 that builds are just faster and more optimized?
I remember seeing an FPVOD of nada playing at 400apm back in 2002 and completely losing my mind. I just didn't realize how incredibly fast some people's brains were until I witnessed that insanity...
It's exciting to see Nada play, I can tell he's playing differently. I can't put my finger on it but I'm wondering if people calling him a prodigy is because he seems to like think outside the box and use as many tools as he can think of during the game. I don't remember seeing a d-matrix firebat before.
D-matrix firebats are somewhat rarely used vs lurkers under dark swarm, specifically to break ramps. I have seen it in several other games on this channel. 2-3 D-matrix firebats can tank a lot of damage and take out several lurkers under dark swarm before they die.
From 2:26 to 2:37 or so, the Zerg had 4 drones on gas. Was that deliberate? On some maps 3 drones doesn't quite saturate the geyser in some locations. Maybe this is an optimization? More likely just a mistake, though.
I noticed Nada flew his factory over the minerals at the natural... would it not be cost effective to do that with another engineering bay? 125 minerals versus the 5-6 SCVs that died during that first attack?
@@TheDartdouble05 Flash is the old NaDa. NaDa is the new Flash. We can only assume NaDa is Flash. Have you ever seen in them in a room together? Of course not.
I feel like Nada should have cleared out the 4th. It would have been a better choice 15:06. Instead, he wondered around and waited for Ultralisks to come out and lost his expansions
hey Arty, what do you think of Savior? I discovered Starcraft tournaments on youtube and he was my fan favorite cuz he was destorying everyone on the brackets. Nowadays I dont hear any mention of him anymore.
firebats are truly an underated unit even for zealot crowd control in bunkers to zergling crowd crontrol. What is not easily seen: Base destroyers :) and they are excellent at it. Along with firebat rushing :) gl with that
I kinda feel like rather than trying to drop offensively with Dropships it's better to use them defensively just to evacuate SCVs and stuff. If you get Dark Swarmed, just lift and airlift out the workers also.
NaDa late tvz games always infuriated me. He keeps hoarding like up to 20 vessels and barely uses them at all, eventually loosing all of them to a plague+muta. That's why Iloveoov was a much better TvZ'er than Nada. He spent his gas on tanks and didn't spam un-used vessels all over.
Whenever I see 'Firebat' for the past what... 10+ years now, all I can think of 'You Wouldn't Be Long Getting *FrostButt* - from the Irish lad on the News! Too bad Fire & Frost are kind of opposites...
Brutal... that zerg was solid, but the more I watch this match up, the more it seems that Terran has to pull off miracles (or just way outclass their opponent) in order to win, especially once defiler hits.
It's painful watching Terrans (for all of BW history) make a couple BCs, send them alone to die alone at some random base while accomplishing nothing. KEEP THEM WITH THE ARMY. So much investment, you should literally NEVER lose BCs as they can be ~Repaired and Marines can shred the Scourge. How has nobody figured this out yet? BCs don't care about 5armor ultras, so why are they uselessly attacking a base?
NaDa does NOT seem to be transitioning well into the newer styles. His tactics seem a tad trapped in the past. He's playing like it's 2006 if you ask me. His floating buildings and vessels are nice and I can tell he's trying to adjust, but it doesn't seem to come naturally to him quite yet. On the other hand, Jaedong and Flash have adjusted fairly well, with an emphasis on Flash who is literally timeless.
I think the fight he took at 18 mins is what made him lose the game. Lost a ton of units, judging from the footage, didn't even bothered to control them, ultras in dark swarm just ate tons of bio.
Irradiate the overlord ? Yeah and then the next. And the next then the lurkers . He had a crap ton of vessels. Using those irradiates he would have broke. The natural. Any way better than expend on useless BC wasted by dirt cheap scourges or useless drops wasted by free zerlings.
Hey Artosis, I just wanted to say thank you for all the professional casts you make for us. I tried watching a Nada game on Falcon Paladins channel and it was almost unwatchable. Had no respect towards the players.
I am puzzled why the BC are so rarely supported with dropships? Isn't this combinations just natural? BCs tank and kill scrourge, marines for DPS and killing spores, medics for marines and vs. plague. Could also pack an SCV.
Completely agree with 2007 being the big transition. Gone were the dinosaurs like Boxer, Nada, Reach, Oov, Savior, and Yellow and in came TaekBangLeeSsang.
Ive mentioned this on your channel before but Julyzerg is the only guy to ever win a starleague before and after that Bisu Savior finals.
Sick stat
Pretty sure day9s last tourney was in 2007 (wcg pan American?) clearly this makes him transitioning to casting the most pivotal change in brood war.
this isnt true about starcraft or basketball or any other place people try to compare today to yesterday. millions of games were played to figure out what works and what doesnt. different things available today that were not there or were more limited yesterday, change what can be done. players were not suddenly being bred for starcraft and surpassing those before them. there is too much minutiae between today and yesterday and the day before...to legitimately compare them. to use a starcraft 2 example, its like saying zerg players used to be shit for not going vipers back in wings of liberty (in b4 someone doesnt get it)
@@wargumbyx If you consider along the lines of a players character Its similar. Nothing in gods universe is comparable cause and effect=Change and that endlessly goes as we all know....🤷♂️ Nothings above or below this rule. But as Flash himself said. "I work hard" Kobe Bryant was also a hard worker=Both similar. Flash and countless others Agree Nada is the Bounjwah?(Idk if I spelled this correctly)=Mj. Not that Mj didn't work hard. But kobe himself also said Mj is Def the best ever. But most people agree Mj is the bounjwah of Basketball because he innovated moves no one had ever seen before=Nada's innovation of SC ppl had not seen before. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. It's not comparable yes but some things are undeniably similar and corresponding to experiences enjoyed apart of life.
@@wargumbyx But in this case, players had previously only lasted for a few years, whereas 2007 ushered in an era where the same group of new players could be great for 17 and counting. I remember it was a common belief in 2006-8 that only young players could be good at the game, and that anyone who hit 20 was basically already on their way out. And there are a lot of practical differences. Maps changed radically before slowly settling down around that time. 2v2 diminished in importance and disappeared. Islands were out. New techniques were perfected (e.g. muta micro). And the game got way faster. Players who _started_ in that era had less difficulty picking it up than experienced players who had learned a different way of playing the game. It's sort of like what happened in Classic Tetris, albeit less extreme.
Many players who started in 2007 are still near the top today, but practically none from 2006 or earlier are. That's a way cleaner cutoff than the gradual pace of improvement in most sports.
as Tasteless said "looks like my high school buddy who never touched multiplayer i go battlecruisers with firebats"
FIREBATTLECRUISER
@@drumunism3781yeah because bat cruiser makes you think of somebody else not going to mention him
I slump back in my chair just a little more each time a defiler wriggles by a group of marines while the player is looking elsewhere.
These are the type of games that capture the spirit of StarCraft. The back and forth fighting, use of many types of units. This is the video im going to use to introduce people into SC!
Interesting fact: Nada for a long bits of the game kept rocking 400+ apm, even hitting 460 at some point. And that was not during worker splitting when you can abuse it hard, it was in mid game, where he had to take care of 3-4 bases, army, 9 rax, upgs, supply and all that shit. He's old but still got that young NaDa apm (he was one of the fastest players back in the day). In this game, i guess his avg was around 370-390.
Starcraft dads throwing a wrench into the modern meta. I love this game
Dad came back with the milk!
When turrets are burning, the missile turret guy gets rotisseried
He must be nauseous from spinning all day
Oh god
What!? there’s a marine in it spinning?
@@StudioModTbf, turrets actually don't spin constantly otherwise the one manning it would be suffering for as long as that building exists.
@@DustinKeiser Yes there's a little guy in it
Nada making these games so much fun... the other games have been so optimised feels like seeing repeats... this is so fun, reminds me of old time legend game where things are going on all over the map constantly
Artosis, will you make a video explaining how play styles differed before and after 2007? I think it would be a really interesting SC history video. I have no knowledge about early SC.
re: the "modernization" of competitive starcraft and other tidbits
2007 also introduced the proleague schedule that we are accustomed to (games simultaneously played across two channels 5 days a week) so there was incentive for coaches/players to figure out how to play safe/boring as to not reveal strats for individual leagues. also i feel that maps modernized so much from 06-07 that it made expand openings the standard and not the exception. you definitely knew something was up if a player who's never qualified for an osl/msl randomly shows up on a proleague entry list.
what i think is a testament to how talented nada was is that he took jangbi to 5 games in a msl quarter final in 2009; i remember at the time the perception was that nada was considered washed and way past his prime while jangbi was peaking as part of the six dragons era but he proved everyone wrong.
18:20 he simply stopped microing his army entirely. Didn't pull back from swarms, didn't cast a single ability from vessels. Just afk marines attacking swarmed ultras
That push into 4 sunkens was painful to watch.
I'm glad you mentioned the big strategic shift that happened around 2007. I've noticed the same thing, but I wasn't sure if it was just because I hadn't seen that many older games. That's around the time they started regularly microing mutas with an overlord, when modern-ish maps were used consistently, when one-base play almost went away completely, and when people finally retired some old builds that they had known were statistically bad for a while.
I don't think I've ever seen a game where battlecruisers did anything
obviously Nadas strategies here are antiquated, but the tactical performance is superb, we can really see evidence of his genius here. specifically the DEFENSE MATRIX play was phenomenal this game. turns out defilers are just OP lol
Yes I was taken aback by the tactical genius of attacking into 4 sunkens with a small bio force.
@@Mafia-Cheese the earlier medics was also interesting, and hes definitely building more firebats than other players lol
Ya Defilers are OP and Mutas are a cancer, worth playing Toss just to shit on them with Corsairs
It’s funny since many of these things were popularized in custom games back in the day, and now 20+ years later we’re celebrating the pro scene using them
@@WOLFMOTHER1257 Yes! I used to play a lot of Lurker Defense back in the day and it still has practical applications in the modern game, great to see
I can't decide if someone being utterly gobsmacked that someone made 2 medics early is incredibly cool or unbelievably ridiculous.
2 Medic chills.
Why not both? CHILLS
Jim Cramer voice “I LIKE the FIREBAT 📈”
Can we get more history lessons? Is there a year that marks the post-modern era with different styles, or is the only change nowadays compared to 2007 that builds are just faster and more optimized?
I loved watching NaDa when he was active in the early SC2 days as well.
Great cast
I remember seeing an FPVOD of nada playing at 400apm back in 2002 and completely losing my mind. I just didn't realize how incredibly fast some people's brains were until I witnessed that insanity...
Nada seems to value marines really highly, and is very careful with them
4 Sunken colonies go brrrrrrrr
I feel like winning a ladder game using a build that predates Flash's career is just a flex
Have u ever stood behind the door and pretended to be a firebat?
The Crazy Zerg Build, the Firebat Meta Build... What will Artosis create next??
Battlecruisers when your opponent has plague? NaDa all surprised to see this.
The no name zerg here actually played a pretty amazing game to be honest.
Startosis is back at it!!!
I wonder if holding the high ground central ring and slowly building up either BCs or tanks to break would have been the move
what r u talking about Dan ? A lot of pros played in 2002/03 - they weren't pros at that time, but they did play SC as kids
It's exciting to see Nada play, I can tell he's playing differently. I can't put my finger on it but I'm wondering if people calling him a prodigy is because he seems to like think outside the box and use as many tools as he can think of during the game. I don't remember seeing a d-matrix firebat before.
D-matrix firebats are somewhat rarely used vs lurkers under dark swarm, specifically to break ramps. I have seen it in several other games on this channel. 2-3 D-matrix firebats can tank a lot of damage and take out several lurkers under dark swarm before they die.
From 2:26 to 2:37 or so, the Zerg had 4 drones on gas. Was that deliberate? On some maps 3 drones doesn't quite saturate the geyser in some locations. Maybe this is an optimization? More likely just a mistake, though.
This is NOT how you use firebats....wtf
Ground battle cruisers :)
NaDa needs to be a bit more decisive which im sure will come with more practice!
Dang that SCV just walked by the sunken 😂
Zerg really is the Apex race with higher APM
I noticed Nada flew his factory over the minerals at the natural... would it not be cost effective to do that with another engineering bay? 125 minerals versus the 5-6 SCVs that died during that first attack?
NOT EVEN FIREBAT META CAN STOP THESE CHILLS
That Zerg was really solid.
Arty please make tutorials about the game . builds etc for 1vs1 in maps / 2vs2 / 3vs3 .
Nada is the new Flash.
Nada is the old Flash
@@TheDartdouble05 Flash is the old NaDa. NaDa is the new Flash.
We can only assume NaDa is Flash. Have you ever seen in them in a room together? Of course not.
I feel like Nada should have cleared out the 4th. It would have been a better choice 15:06. Instead, he wondered around and waited for Ultralisks to come out and lost his expansions
hey Arty, what do you think of Savior? I discovered Starcraft tournaments on youtube and he was my fan favorite cuz he was destorying everyone on the brackets. Nowadays I dont hear any mention of him anymore.
you should cast a pre 2007 game to compare / contrast
Missile turrets should do full damage to mutas.
time for a mini-patch. Just that, f defiler, vision of protoss and scout price
NaDa and Artroisis casts?
Yes, please.
i am a human tripod, NADA IS BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Stimpack feel good
firebats are truly an underated unit even for zealot crowd control in bunkers to zergling crowd crontrol.
What is not easily seen: Base destroyers :) and they are excellent at it.
Along with firebat rushing :) gl with that
welcome to 2005 type style issues though lol
I kinda feel like rather than trying to drop offensively with Dropships it's better to use them defensively just to evacuate SCVs and stuff. If you get Dark Swarmed, just lift and airlift out the workers also.
zerg will bring scourge if that becomes a thing
NaDa late tvz games always infuriated me. He keeps hoarding like up to 20 vessels and barely uses them at all, eventually loosing all of them to a plague+muta. That's why Iloveoov was a much better TvZ'er than Nada. He spent his gas on tanks and didn't spam un-used vessels all over.
Does anyone else remember the TL thread called Nada's body?
Fire bats aka spicy boys
Yellow terran slaps actually as a color choice.
7:30 WIPED
Fire it up!
Firebat thumbnail, must watch
NADA IS THE GOAT, guy in the chat.
see's artosis video, click artosis video
Whenever I see 'Firebat' for the past what... 10+ years now, all I can think of 'You Wouldn't Be Long Getting *FrostButt* - from the Irish lad on the News! Too bad Fire & Frost are kind of opposites...
Di some NaDa historic games from the old days
we only doing nada games now? FUCK YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Is there ever a case where Zerg uses devorers?
Nada versus Flash when?
Nada? More like “not a” complaint from me.
Firebats?! Chills.
[ReD]NaDa - also remembering ToT)Mondragon
I beat Mondragon in one game and he shit talked me the way Artosis shit talks everyone that beats him on ladder hahahaha.
@Classic_DionysuS hajahajaja
Might as well add linyu)pj them dudes were good
dark swarm is so crazy
Brutal... that zerg was solid, but the more I watch this match up, the more it seems that Terran has to pull off miracles (or just way outclass their opponent) in order to win, especially once defiler hits.
40 firebats = about 1 nuke
FIIIRREEEBAT METAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
what is this map
Deja Vu
You've seen it before
hope you're pooping when you read that I have the chills.
Loser
Why didnt terran go for the third after seeing 4 sunken?
I think TvZ is my favorite match up at the pro level.
Nada is an oldtimer 😞
You sure thats NaDa ? He has same apm level like speed :D
It's painful watching Terrans (for all of BW history) make a couple BCs, send them alone to die alone at some random base while accomplishing nothing.
KEEP THEM WITH THE ARMY. So much investment, you should literally NEVER lose BCs as they can be ~Repaired and Marines can shred the Scourge.
How has nobody figured this out yet? BCs don't care about 5armor ultras, so why are they uselessly attacking a base?
NaDa does NOT seem to be transitioning well into the newer styles. His tactics seem a tad trapped in the past. He's playing like it's 2006 if you ask me. His floating buildings and vessels are nice and I can tell he's trying to adjust, but it doesn't seem to come naturally to him quite yet. On the other hand, Jaedong and Flash have adjusted fairly well, with an emphasis on Flash who is literally timeless.
I think the fight he took at 18 mins is what made him lose the game. Lost a ton of units, judging from the footage, didn't even bothered to control them, ultras in dark swarm just ate tons of bio.
Irradiate the overlord ? Yeah and then the next. And the next then the lurkers . He had a crap ton of vessels. Using those irradiates he would have broke. The natural. Any way better than expend on useless BC wasted by dirt cheap scourges or useless drops wasted by free zerlings.
Dadbuilds
Only a true god like Flash has the multi-tasking ability to repair damaged science vessals.
It just seems like it would be less of a game if there was a meta that everybody stuck to. What is thank God for the change-ups
Hey Artosis, I just wanted to say thank you for all the professional casts you make for us. I tried watching a Nada game on Falcon Paladins channel and it was almost unwatchable. Had no respect towards the players.
Chills
YAY MOOOOOOAAAAAAAR NADAAAA
Invincibility spell wins
terran got spanked, good game
I love Oov come back next now!!
Interesting game
BROWN BREW CREW NEVER SLEEPS. ALL JITTERY WAITING FOR ARTY TO MAKE HIS FARTYS
FARTOSIS CHILLS
Spoiler block for the chills
EZ Terran never in it. Wrecked by amateur Zerg.
gn arty
meta? more like something all terrans should be doing instead of spamming weak marines that get shredded by every t1 unit.
Zerg is so HYPE!
ggs
I am puzzled why the BC are so rarely supported with dropships? Isn't this combinations just natural? BCs tank and kill scrourge, marines for DPS and killing spores, medics for marines and vs. plague. Could also pack an SCV.
Erm what the firebat