At least I was looking very determined when my screen froze -- a very flattering pose. I'm glad to get the full discussion now, especially the part about witnessing!
This was a great discussion, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. I think there is one point about Tavore's plan that often gets overlooked... there was a massive rebellion that completely ruined her plan and timing. So, in retrospect with what happens we can criticise her plan, but if we look at her plan as it was conceived in the prologue, prior to the rebellion occurring, I think it makes a little more sense. She just didn't factor in that the Whirlwind rebellion would redirect military forces, disrupt communications, and make mounting any rescue almost impossible. But your mileage may vary over that interpretation.
AP, I would love to get you on the record with a Tavore video. Your thoughts there have me intrigued to learn more! I'm in full agreement, but I want to hear more lol
Thanks for being an awesome host, Allen! Talking with you, Andy, and Iskar about this series has been so helpful for me, and I am so grateful to our guest, Counsellor of Moon's Spawn, for offering her insights and making this discussion so much more interesting with her presence. I'm excited for our next discussion!
I loved Counsellor's comment about Felisin losing faith in humanity. There is so much information in that little sentence! As for why children, teenagers in particular don't listen to the advice of parents and grown ups in general, I will offer a Romanian proverb for it: you won't see the lower threshold until you have bumped your head on the upper one. As in until unless you get hurt by your own high-headedness you won't have the experience to notice the dangers you CAN avoid by being a little more humble. Experience can't be passed on, only learned on your own. Oh, and thank you Counsellor for the appreciation. The last thing I was expecting when I began watching this video was to hear my own name mentioned around.
Iskar is the best listener ever. His nodding is so encouraging. Thanks guys for another one of these :-). It's a nice way to decompress after finishing the book.
In reading your essay, I found myself wanting to walk your naked elephant just a bit further. The response to Felisin that kills me the most is basically “I’d feel bad for Felisin if she wasn’t such a bitch.” For me, the true difference between Felisin and Vahain is that I think Vahain would be allowed to lash out and express anger at what he’s been through. His anger, for many, would have been understandable and seen as proof of a fighting spirit, even when it was misdirected. And THAT’S what pisses me off the most - though I try not to express that anger too openly, lest I be dismissed as a bitch.
Wow such a complimentary group of people. You all offer different insights and perspectives into the series and I find myself appreciating the books more after every one of these videos so far. Thank you for the great discussion and I cannot wait for more!
Finally finished book 2. Now I can watch all these Deadhouse Gates videos. After reading just the first 2 books I really liked Gardens of the Moon a lot more.
So fun to watch The Malazan Bunch! The Felisin discussion touches on one of my favorite questions to examine: does trauma negate agency? If you believe Felisin has the ability to make different choices or act differently-even given her past-then you might judge her as wrong or bad. You might think she's not a puppet to her past; she could have made a different choice much like high school kids could listen now and then. If, however, you believe trauma immobilizes the ability to think and choose differently, you might be inclined be find more compassion for Felisin. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between those two views? As mentioned, Erikson makes compassion and empathy complex and not so obvious and simple. I appreciate that isn't easy to understand. It's a journey to understand, and even then, we may never fully understand.
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria Thank you! Yes, I immediately thought of Rin too when thinking about that question. I can empathize with what you were saying as a fellow teacher. It's easy to get frustrated sometimes, and that frustration comes from caring. If you didn't care, it wouldn't bother you how much the student screws up. This might be a different tangent, but so much discernment is needed to balance compassion with wisdom.
If I am following it is the balancing point between compassion and responsibility. For me the internal dialogue did get a little old and a bit much for a 14 year old but moving nonetheless. The relationship between her and Heboric is complicated as they are two broken people but for very different reasons and reacted in different ways. They each lash out to those who do seem trying to help them. At what point do you stop helping those who refuse to help themselves? Jumping ahead a bit but the speech by Itkovian on the subject is incredibly powerful. Compassion taken on many forms throughout the book. Many of them are not a happy ending we might have wanted.
Nil, Nether, and Sormo stand out to me for some reason. Great discussion on Felisin. I always felt the Felisin story on a personal level. Often when we try to help people that are as victimized as Felisin, we are not even competent enough for such a task. And often the victims have lost all trust in people due to their experiences.
One aspect about Felisin that I think gets excused or thrown to the side too easily is the drug addiction aspect. I've sadly known some people who are at rock bottem and have drug issues, and that makes some people insanely bitter. They're aware of what they're doing, but seeing anyone else possibly cope with lesser complications and it creates this vile character that basically only has bitterness to fall on. I also don't look too poorly on her on how she treats Heboric and Bauden, because they are never really trying to help her. You have a cynical ex priest who either doesn't care or judges the entire time, while having almost nothing to do beyond giving advice. Bauden is basically an ex assassin huge monster that basically dissapears and when is around again, mostly just judges her. They never really help her or show any attempt to try, they just judge her and say she could have survived a different way or gotten by a different way. Screw them, they aren't a helpless 15 year old child thrown in to slavery after having a life of nobility.
Excellent discussion. I really liked what Counselor said about Felisin. There are many Felisins out there in the world who suffer, like the “character Felisin” does, every day in the global/imperial nexus of power and capital. If anything, they need to be understood and empathized with.
Interessting discussion! I've always seen the relationship between Felisin and Heboric as being more complicated than just him trying to help her (or not). They both come from a place of shame and hurt. Felisin selling herself to help her two new friends makes Heboric very uncomfortable, ashamed and angry. Felisin in turn (to my understanding) holds onto the fact that she's saving not only herself but her friends (at least in the beginning). She needs her actions to mean something but Heboric can't force himself to acknoledge that, which in turn makes it a lot harder for her.. Anyway I've always found those scenes very realistic and I can totally understand both Heboric and Felisin.
Philip; "Flat landscapes are boring" Me being Dutch; 'Hey!' 😣 .... 'okay, fair' Great discussion, so much to say about.. well, everything. All of the storylines here are just packed with emotional gut punches, wonderful character work, worldbuilding and setup... and are just great stories by themselves. To then also have them interconnected and be part of a much bigger story.. 😳
Great discussion by yall just had a few points i would like to hear from yall 1. We keep thinking that Felisin is the reason Heboric survived in the mines but is he alive just tnx to her? In a way we only getting Felisin pov for those parts and we don't know what other actions are happening around them and we do know how much SE love the untrustworthy narrator options. 2.we see Gotos disappoint that the Azath didn't take Icarium but is the Azath can hold him?
I don't think anyone early on was trying to help Felisin. Sure Bauden was there to mainly help her get through the marching at the start, but that's really all we see from him. Later on, once they reach leave the mines and are with the ghost ship and everything, I do think people are wanting to help her then, but early on, we see absolutely nothing of them ever trying to help her. They just say they would have after the fact while judging her and shaming her after everything is said and done.
I think part of that has to do with neither of them being POV characters and also the narrative need to keep Tavore's plan and Baudin's allegiances a secret. We don't actually know what they were trying to do early on because we don't see them. But yes, they certainly do judge her, that's for sure.
Only read the first two - so hard to say which I liked more. Gardens of the Moon slightly edges it (I tend to have a first book bias in series), but Chain of Dogs was unlike anything I've read. If I ever reread the series, I don't know if I can ever reread Deadhouse Gates! Great conversation, thanks for all the insights!
Great discussion! If I am allowed to, I would like to repeat a point I made in a comment I left on Riddhima's video on "Deadhouse Gates": She mention how often Erikson use the color "ochre". I felt that that one word, is just one prime example of how Erikson really effectivly use his expertise as an archaeologist to give Seven Cities a really old history and tell us that the culture there is older than dirt (almost quite literal!): In some of the earliest undisputed human burial sites we know of, the Skhul & Qafzeh caves in Israel dating back around 100,000 years ago, archaeologists discovered human skeletal remains stained with red ochre. The use of red ochre has been found in several stone age sites, and is thought to have played an important role in some of the earliest human rituals ever. As such I am reminded of how Tolkien used his expertise as a linguist to give extra depth to Middle Earth, same with Le Guin (who grew up with parents that were anthropologists and psychologists) & her Earthsea. PS: Philip: "Flat landscapes are boring" Me (Norwegian): Yeah, I know right?
Wow, I'm the exact opposite of Allen, as far as his favorite storylines go. I'm all in with Felisin and Mappo/Icarium, and Duiker and the chain for a good half of the book just bored me to tears and I struggled to understand a lot of it especially early on.
I found anything that wasn’t the Chain Of Dogs storyline the most interesting bits 😅 Also, I found Pust kind of like a Pratchett-esque character and provided much needed comical moments - hope that doesn’t trigger you!
Hahhaha it saddens me to think if Pratchett writing Pust but hey, I'm in thr minority with not liking him. As for the Chain of Dogs, I WEEP, good sir...WEEP!!
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria I’m still into it though definitely! Can’t wait to start Memories Of Ice! I have a feeling the Bhok’arala are more than meets the eye 🤔
@@sethulakovic3722 probably trying to remain as neutral and detached from this as possible. He has a working relationship with people on both sides and it started on his channel so I don't really blame him for wanting to wait this one out.
Felisin kinda reminds me of Thomas Covenant. Despicable characters, though you can't help but empathize with them, because they've gone through some seriously dark shit and now that things are going alright, they can't swallow it. Or accept it. Felisin is nowhere near Covenant when it comes to being an asshole however! Ha! The bastard. I'm with Allen here. I understand Felisin, but I can't stand her at all.
The Felisin storyline was really not the most enjoyable to get through.. Its not that I or many other dont understand her trauma and brokenness but its probably more the fact that "we get it" and just wait for her to snap out of it or get over it because its not enjoyable to read about her lashing out and being ungrateful constantly.. we get it girl she cant help it but its just not enjoyable to read about and feels dragged out compared to all the awesome stuff happening in the other threads.
Cracking me up. I don't see Felisin in terms of black or white. I feel the opposite. I feel like it's not looking carefully enough at the complexity of her choices that leads people to so strongly apologize for her actions. Before I drop my block of text, I'd like to say Johanna raises a good point in the comments worth some heavy consideration. While I do not think trauma negates agency as a rule, I think it CAN negate agency if given the wheel--which I would argue is a choice. I don't see much in the way of folks on my side of the fence (Felisin is both deserving of our compassion as well as our contempt). So, I'd like to offer this brick of text to address why in a manner that actually reasons it out. Felisin is 14/15/16. For the record, she keeps getting called a child in discussions supporting her character. She is not a child, she is an adolescent. This distinction matters in so far as you will allow it to (transitional period into adulthood). I’ve read DG a couple of times now so it's fair to say I'm approaching an understanding of the cause and effect nature of Felisin’s personality insofar as it's presented in book 2-trauma having shaped her (beginning with suffering the first *injustice*…depending on whether or not one approaches the morality of the original culling from the stance of input or outcome). What happens to Felisin after the culling are certainly a slew of morally reprehensible actions, some of which are acts exacted upon her, some of which she determines she must enact upon herself. This distinction is also important. That said, let’s discuss why Felisin does not pass snuff/why she doesn't meet my standard to be respected. The question is: “what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length” and let it eventually destroy them? Is it as simple as age? Sex? Time? Capacity? No. Of course not. I admit to being reductionist in what follows, but I’m not here to persuade you, only to try to extend a bridge so that even though we might disagree, we can at least understand one another (and dispense with the false and frustratingly presumptuous "if you feel this way you must not know any real survivors of trauma/ever sustained prolonged abuse yourself" narrative): For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her “feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness.” There is a line from a poem that goes: "It's okay to grow your wings on the way down." But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite. And when you're going downhill, you go faster and faster. Part of compassion is wishing to alleviate the suffering of others, but it's awfully hard to help those who refuse to help themselves. Felisin does not overcome her trauma; she embraces it knowingly as poison to both herself and the people around her (even her moments of “helping others” are viewed internally in a self-serving way [that which can be as easily taken away as given come her capricious whims], though I can forgive that since philanthropy is motivated by self-interest as a rule). She does this embracing of trauma, I think, as a means to feed the ressentiment (her sense of “weakness or her inferiority complex and perhaps even jealousy in the face of the "cause" [subjugating power] which generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one's frustration”: Tavore/order/control. Is it any wonder she becomes the leader of the apocalypse cult?). So, she feeds this ressentiment to pave her unerring way to vengeance against, to drive the point in, *Tavore and what she represents*. Felisin chooses not to overcome because her motivations are not interested in living meaningfully. They are, and she is, interested only in destruction (mutually assured if that’s what it takes). So, when I say Felisin chooses to not “overcome her self-image of victimization” what I mean is that she chooses to remain bonded to being a victim in order to justify/feed her subsuming drive for vengeance. Felisin lacks a sustaining meaning, champions bitterness, vengefulness, anger, destructiveness, and we’re excusing that and are willing to claim she is a respectable character? Again, do I understand her motivations? Yes. Can I sympathize with them at some level? Yes. Can I empathize with her? Am I willing to wear her skin, to feel and understand? Do I feel compassion for Felisin? Am I willing to be a co-sufferer. Yes-after all, I did carefully read her chapters more than once and thought them through with care. What occurs to her seemingly without choice, and her autonomous choices both, left me deeply saddened. But to what degree that sadness was pity...well. And so this is where I diverge because I will not let my compassion justify or excuse her means. Is this pejorative judgement? Absolutely, but it’s absurd to assume that at any point one is not exacting this manner of judgement--we build up or tear down instantly as individuals are texts we read. We use what information we have to deem worthiness. By way of example, I would expect most, with little hesitation (snap pejorative judgement: unworthy of compassion), to not feel an abundance of compassion for a serial child murderer. One is deemed worthy of our compassion or not more often than should be the case; there’s no two ways about it. Without it we’d let permissiveness run entirely out of control. Felisin has earned my empathy, but she not earned my respect for the reasons above, and I will not simply give it to her or accept her choices because she has suffered so. Respect and acceptance are not compulsory, nor should they ever be; however, I would say that I agree with the notion that compassion should be freely given without expecting anything in trade. I would agree that is requisite for redemption. But this does not traverse over to respect, which is earned, nor acceptance. These are more complicated and come after. As a final point, Felisin is not acting in a vacuum either. There are those around who try to offer her consolation. Heboric tries to render her various losses more bearable by inviting “some shift in belief about the point of living a life that includes suffering. Thus, consolation implies a period of transition: a preparation for a time when the present suffering will have turned (sound familiar?). Consolation promises that turning.” But, Felisin denies this possibility, and she does it *on purpose*. To sum up my feelings: Felisin is repulsive to me, and my wife (who has a long history of working with trauma survivors and emotionally disturbed soldiers) both. We have talked this out at length. Our intense dislike of her has absolutely nothing to do with her sex, and everything to do with her choices when she does have agency. In addition, negative responsibility is worthy of our consideration for all characters, Felisin included. “An agent is responsible not only for the consequences she produces by her own actions, but that she is also responsible for consequences that she allows to happen by other agents or events she fails to prevent other agents from producing.” In the end, I agree that "compassion is a requisite for a meaningful existence and civilized society". But so too with what Silverfox says: "In all that is to come, think on forgiveness. Hold to it, but know too that it must not always be freely given." All said and done and in the inestimable words of the Dude: that’s just like, my opinion, man.
Yeah, why doesn't she just pull herself up by the bootstraps while drudging through the desert after escaping a prison of abuses that she was sent to after being betrayed by her sister? She's, like you said, an adolescent going through things that could be shrugged off if she got her head straight. Like, it's only been a couple of months of sustained trauma with no end in sight. Stop looking towards the past and the current awful circumstances in which you find yourself, think about a future that might never come. She's so much prettier when she smiles, she should totally just grow up and be happy already...
@@zadig08 literally not what anyone's saying. It is possible to understand her trauma and still not like her. Just like it's possible to make a cogent argument without being a jerk. 😀
I mean, I get it. The way she deals with her trauma makes you uncomfortable. That's fine. However, you literally booed her. I find it a bit silly that you want to call me the jerk for taking the prior comment to its logical conclusion. As an enlisted vet, and as a guy that had an officer drug and try to rape me while still in the military, I feel confident saying that not everybody responds in the way we want them to when coming to terms with what's happened to them. We can't control that. We can, however, control our reaction to it and we choose whether or not we want to accept them and help them heal or blame them for their continued suffering.
@@zadig08 Logical conclusion? No. You straw manned the crap out of what I said to shoehorn in the same claims that keep getting made in defense of Felisin. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent what I am saying, and don't claim what you did not do. That isn't going to further the discussion. You appear to be interested in polemic--I'm not. I'm interested in expanding the discussion such that both sides and those between come to understand one another. Folks keep saying Because trauma, actions understandable. I am trying to get across that Because understandable, not acceptable or respectable. Some opinions of mine: Compassion ought be freely given. Respect ought be earned. Acceptance ought be earned. I am not victim blaming. And yes, you're right, trying to enforce an ideal litmus test for proper behavior on an individual suffering sustained trauma is presumptious beyond belief. Good thing that isn't what I did either.
@@sweetlard2113 To elaborate on the thrust of your position is not to strawman you. You said, "For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her 'feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness'... But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite.” You're putting the onus on her to start healing while ignoring the fact that she simply isn't in the space to begin that process. She's literally trying to survive while wondering through the desert and you're expecting her to have already begun the process 'overcoming her chains of victimhood'. It's not a reach to interpret that as expecting her to 'pull herself up by the bootstraps'. The actual strawman in play is the claim that people outright excuse her actions. I don't think anybody does. Most people just wish she had the chance to start recovering which she never gets in this book. Some people, like yourself despite the protestations, just expect her to have started the healing process despite the sustained trauma. That's a pretty crummy expectation.
I can understand people not liking Felisin but I absolutely CANNOT understand people who don’t understand her actions given the trauma she has gone through. I love Felisin. You know what? I’m willing cut a 15 year old CHILD some slack when they have been physically and sexually abused, forcibly addicted to drugs so as to be controlled, has Stockholm syndrome, has been forcibly removed from her noble life, was betrayed by her sister etc.
At least I was looking very determined when my screen froze -- a very flattering pose. I'm glad to get the full discussion now, especially the part about witnessing!
Not as good a freeze as count..............................................................................erpoint, unfortunately.
@@nilanniruthan I tried my best!
Me, after books 1 & 2: I don't know...I'm excited to get back to Genabackis next book.
Me, after books 3 & 4: Man...I'm going to miss Seven Cities.
Hahahah accurate
boooo! get new material!! i heard this in your video, like... a day ago! :P
man, i'd love to see you in one of these :)
This was a great discussion, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.
I think there is one point about Tavore's plan that often gets overlooked... there was a massive rebellion that completely ruined her plan and timing. So, in retrospect with what happens we can criticise her plan, but if we look at her plan as it was conceived in the prologue, prior to the rebellion occurring, I think it makes a little more sense. She just didn't factor in that the Whirlwind rebellion would redirect military forces, disrupt communications, and make mounting any rescue almost impossible. But your mileage may vary over that interpretation.
Thanks so much for watching and that's actually a fantastic point about the Whirlwind...I never thought of Tavore's plan in light of the Whirlwind!
AP, I would love to get you on the record with a Tavore video. Your thoughts there have me intrigued to learn more! I'm in full agreement, but I want to hear more lol
@@IskarJarak co-signed!
Whether I’m figuring out how to save my sister or just planning a day at the beach, I always - ALWAYS - factor in Whirlwind Rebellions.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy this made me laugh out loud
Thanks for being an awesome host, Allen! Talking with you, Andy, and Iskar about this series has been so helpful for me, and I am so grateful to our guest, Counsellor of Moon's Spawn, for offering her insights and making this discussion so much more interesting with her presence. I'm excited for our next discussion!
100%. You guys are all amazing and I also learn so much.
This one was REALLY fun. I'm excited for the next one... it feels like a reunion of old friends that I look forward to each month!
This was so fun! Memories of Ice is going to be awesome.
I loved Counsellor's comment about Felisin losing faith in humanity. There is so much information in that little sentence!
As for why children, teenagers in particular don't listen to the advice of parents and grown ups in general, I will offer a Romanian proverb for it: you won't see the lower threshold until you have bumped your head on the upper one. As in until unless you get hurt by your own high-headedness you won't have the experience to notice the dangers you CAN avoid by being a little more humble. Experience can't be passed on, only learned on your own.
Oh, and thank you Counsellor for the appreciation. The last thing I was expecting when I began watching this video was to hear my own name mentioned around.
That Karos video was the bomb though!
I always love the deep insights you share in your comments, too!
Iskar is the best listener ever. His nodding is so encouraging. Thanks guys for another one of these :-). It's a nice way to decompress after finishing the book.
Erikson here. You've inspired a new essay. Thanks!
You are a legend Sir, thank you for such amazing works of mind bending literature and the greatest epic f*cking fantasy fiction series ever written.
In reading your essay, I found myself wanting to walk your naked elephant just a bit further. The response to Felisin that kills me the most is basically “I’d feel bad for Felisin if she wasn’t such a bitch.” For me, the true difference between Felisin and Vahain is that I think Vahain would be allowed to lash out and express anger at what he’s been through. His anger, for many, would have been understandable and seen as proof of a fighting spirit, even when it was misdirected. And THAT’S what pisses me off the most - though I try not to express that anger too openly, lest I be dismissed as a bitch.
@@QuickJen 🙏
@@QuickJen Yup.
@@stevelundin5705 please keep participating in the discussions on these channels. These are "reader spaces"....not "reviewer spaces."
This was fun! Thanks for having me, guys!
So glad you joined us! I love your views on everything!
It was a pleasure and an honor to learn from you during our discussion. Thanks!
Wow such a complimentary group of people. You all offer different insights and perspectives into the series and I find myself appreciating the books more after every one of these videos so far. Thank you for the great discussion and I cannot wait for more!
wild book. I'm super intrigued by what Stomy Trutth & Gesler are going to be up to going forward.
Finally finished book 2. Now I can watch all these Deadhouse Gates videos. After reading just the first 2 books I really liked Gardens of the Moon a lot more.
So fun to watch The Malazan Bunch! The Felisin discussion touches on one of my favorite questions to examine: does trauma negate agency? If you believe Felisin has the ability to make different choices or act differently-even given her past-then you might judge her as wrong or bad. You might think she's not a puppet to her past; she could have made a different choice much like high school kids could listen now and then. If, however, you believe trauma immobilizes the ability to think and choose differently, you might be inclined be find more compassion for Felisin.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between those two views? As mentioned, Erikson makes compassion and empathy complex and not so obvious and simple. I appreciate that isn't easy to understand. It's a journey to understand, and even then, we may never fully understand.
This is a similar issue with Rin from the Poppy War. You put that question so well just now!
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria Thank you! Yes, I immediately thought of Rin too when thinking about that question. I can empathize with what you were saying as a fellow teacher. It's easy to get frustrated sometimes, and that frustration comes from caring. If you didn't care, it wouldn't bother you how much the student screws up. This might be a different tangent, but so much discernment is needed to balance compassion with wisdom.
If I am following it is the balancing point between compassion and responsibility. For me the internal dialogue did get a little old and a bit much for a 14 year old but moving nonetheless. The relationship between her and Heboric is complicated as they are two broken people but for very different reasons and reacted in different ways. They each lash out to those who do seem trying to help them.
At what point do you stop helping those who refuse to help themselves? Jumping ahead a bit but the speech by Itkovian on the subject is incredibly powerful. Compassion taken on many forms throughout the book. Many of them are not a happy ending we might have wanted.
Nil, Nether, and Sormo stand out to me for some reason.
Great discussion on Felisin.
I always felt the Felisin story on a personal level. Often when we try to help people that are as victimized as Felisin, we are not even competent enough for such a task. And often the victims have lost all trust in people due to their experiences.
Straight up G! I wish we could have talked about Sormo because that one hits hard!!
@@IskarJarak yeah, we sort of glossed over the warlocks unfortunately...they're so great.
One aspect about Felisin that I think gets excused or thrown to the side too easily is the drug addiction aspect. I've sadly known some people who are at rock bottem and have drug issues, and that makes some people insanely bitter. They're aware of what they're doing, but seeing anyone else possibly cope with lesser complications and it creates this vile character that basically only has bitterness to fall on.
I also don't look too poorly on her on how she treats Heboric and Bauden, because they are never really trying to help her. You have a cynical ex priest who either doesn't care or judges the entire time, while having almost nothing to do beyond giving advice. Bauden is basically an ex assassin huge monster that basically dissapears and when is around again, mostly just judges her. They never really help her or show any attempt to try, they just judge her and say she could have survived a different way or gotten by a different way. Screw them, they aren't a helpless 15 year old child thrown in to slavery after having a life of nobility.
I definitely agree with you on felisin
Excellent discussion. I really liked what Counselor said about Felisin. There are many Felisins out there in the world who suffer, like the “character Felisin” does, every day in the global/imperial nexus of power and capital. If anything, they need to be understood and empathized with.
I really do love these thought out and thorough discussions you post on your channel.
Thanks so much for watching!!
Just finished book to and my jaw is on the floor
Iskar's point at 38:35 hits hard 🙌
Interessting discussion!
I've always seen the relationship between Felisin and Heboric as being more complicated than just him trying to help her (or not). They both come from a place of shame and hurt. Felisin selling herself to help her two new friends makes Heboric very uncomfortable, ashamed and angry. Felisin in turn (to my understanding) holds onto the fact that she's saving not only herself but her friends (at least in the beginning). She needs her actions to mean something but Heboric can't force himself to acknoledge that, which in turn makes it a lot harder for her..
Anyway I've always found those scenes very realistic and I can totally understand both Heboric and Felisin.
*spoiler alert*
Such a huge injustice that Itkovian doesn't get a chance to take Felisins burden.
This discussion has peaked my interest in checking out Black Company. No idea when I'll get to it but I'm looking forward to it.
DOOOO EEEET!
Philip; "Flat landscapes are boring"
Me being Dutch; 'Hey!' 😣 .... 'okay, fair'
Great discussion, so much to say about.. well, everything.
All of the storylines here are just packed with emotional gut punches, wonderful character work, worldbuilding and setup... and are just great stories by themselves. To then also have them interconnected and be part of a much bigger story.. 😳
Okay, Rob, but you have all the windmills and tulips, so it's still beautiful, right?
Where is Kruppe?? Need more Kruppe
Great discussion by yall just had a few points i would like to hear from yall
1. We keep thinking that Felisin is the reason Heboric survived in the mines but is he alive just tnx to her? In a way we only getting Felisin pov for those parts and we don't know what other actions are happening around them and we do know how much SE love the untrustworthy narrator options.
2.we see Gotos disappoint that the Azath didn't take Icarium but is the Azath can hold him?
Don’t mind me, just listening to this while taking a nap, not having read a single word of Malazan.
🤣🤣
I was wondering how long the video would go before Counsellor bashed DG for not having Rake. I guessed 5 minutes. Actual result: 02:42
🤣🤣🤣🤣
👀
I don't think anyone early on was trying to help Felisin. Sure Bauden was there to mainly help her get through the marching at the start, but that's really all we see from him. Later on, once they reach leave the mines and are with the ghost ship and everything, I do think people are wanting to help her then, but early on, we see absolutely nothing of them ever trying to help her. They just say they would have after the fact while judging her and shaming her after everything is said and done.
I think part of that has to do with neither of them being POV characters and also the narrative need to keep Tavore's plan and Baudin's allegiances a secret. We don't actually know what they were trying to do early on because we don't see them. But yes, they certainly do judge her, that's for sure.
Only read the first two - so hard to say which I liked more. Gardens of the Moon slightly edges it (I tend to have a first book bias in series), but Chain of Dogs was unlike anything I've read. If I ever reread the series, I don't know if I can ever reread Deadhouse Gates! Great conversation, thanks for all the insights!
Chain of Dogs was my favourite part of the book too.
YESSSS
Here we go bois, military enthusiasts assemble!
Great discussion! If I am allowed to, I would like to repeat a point I made in a comment I left on Riddhima's video on "Deadhouse Gates": She mention how often Erikson use the color "ochre". I felt that that one word, is just one prime example of how Erikson really effectivly use his expertise as an archaeologist to give Seven Cities a really old history and tell us that the culture there is older than dirt (almost quite literal!): In some of the earliest undisputed human burial sites we know of, the Skhul & Qafzeh caves in Israel dating back around 100,000 years ago, archaeologists discovered human skeletal remains stained with red ochre. The use of red ochre has been found in several stone age sites, and is thought to have played an important role in some of the earliest human rituals ever.
As such I am reminded of how Tolkien used his expertise as a linguist to give extra depth to Middle Earth, same with Le Guin (who grew up with parents that were anthropologists and psychologists) & her Earthsea.
PS:
Philip: "Flat landscapes are boring"
Me (Norwegian): Yeah, I know right?
Very random question, but by the accent is it possible that the counsellor is a fellow german? 🙂
Wow, I'm the exact opposite of Allen, as far as his favorite storylines go. I'm all in with Felisin and Mappo/Icarium, and Duiker and the chain for a good half of the book just bored me to tears and I struggled to understand a lot of it especially early on.
Hahahahha I love that these books have something for everyone!
I’m 400 pages in and I just find it so boring. There are so many wasted pages in between “events” don’t know how I’m going to get through the series
yay!
I’m just a guy-tryin not to die.
Coltaine is the truth, a man who says very little bit jets shit done. Its just that simple for me.
Word
I found anything that wasn’t the Chain Of Dogs storyline the most interesting bits 😅 Also, I found Pust kind of like a Pratchett-esque character and provided much needed comical moments - hope that doesn’t trigger you!
Hahhaha it saddens me to think if Pratchett writing Pust but hey, I'm in thr minority with not liking him. As for the Chain of Dogs, I WEEP, good sir...WEEP!!
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria I’m still into it though definitely! Can’t wait to start Memories Of Ice! I have a feeling the Bhok’arala are more than meets the eye 🤔
Where you at Allen?
Here?
@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria Do you plan to weigh in on the Thing happening currently? I think your perspective would be helpful for the community.
So I'll respectfully ask again : Where you at Allen?
@@sethulakovic3722 probably trying to remain as neutral and detached from this as possible. He has a working relationship with people on both sides and it started on his channel so I don't really blame him for wanting to wait this one out.
@@francb1634 Well that is his right and a position to take. Many have taken that route before.
Felisin kinda reminds me of Thomas Covenant. Despicable characters, though you can't help but empathize with them, because they've gone through some seriously dark shit and now that things are going alright, they can't swallow it. Or accept it. Felisin is nowhere near Covenant when it comes to being an asshole however! Ha! The bastard.
I'm with Allen here. I understand Felisin, but I can't stand her at all.
Yeah that's where I lie on the issue. I get it but she's also the worst lol
The Felisin storyline was really not the most enjoyable to get through.. Its not that I or many other dont understand her trauma and brokenness but its probably more the fact that "we get it" and just wait for her to snap out of it or get over it because its not enjoyable to read about her lashing out and being ungrateful constantly.. we get it girl she cant help it but its just not enjoyable to read about and feels dragged out compared to all the awesome stuff happening in the other threads.
Cracking me up. I don't see Felisin in terms of black or white. I feel the opposite. I feel like it's not looking carefully enough at the complexity of her choices that leads people to so strongly apologize for her actions. Before I drop my block of text, I'd like to say Johanna raises a good point in the comments worth some heavy consideration. While I do not think trauma negates agency as a rule, I think it CAN negate agency if given the wheel--which I would argue is a choice.
I don't see much in the way of folks on my side of the fence (Felisin is both deserving of our compassion as well as our contempt). So, I'd like to offer this brick of text to address why in a manner that actually reasons it out.
Felisin is 14/15/16. For the record, she keeps getting called a child in discussions supporting her character. She is not a child, she is an adolescent. This distinction matters in so far as you will allow it to (transitional period into adulthood).
I’ve read DG a couple of times now so it's fair to say I'm approaching an understanding of the cause and effect nature of Felisin’s personality insofar as it's presented in book 2-trauma having shaped her (beginning with suffering the first *injustice*…depending on whether or not one approaches the morality of the original culling from the stance of input or outcome).
What happens to Felisin after the culling are certainly a slew of morally reprehensible actions, some of which are acts exacted upon her, some of which she determines she must enact upon herself. This distinction is also important.
That said, let’s discuss why Felisin does not pass snuff/why she doesn't meet my standard to be respected.
The question is: “what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length” and let it eventually destroy them? Is it as simple as age? Sex? Time? Capacity? No. Of course not.
I admit to being reductionist in what follows, but I’m not here to persuade you, only to try to extend a bridge so that even though we might disagree, we can at least understand one another (and dispense with the false and frustratingly presumptuous "if you feel this way you must not know any real survivors of trauma/ever sustained prolonged abuse yourself" narrative):
For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her “feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness.” There is a line from a poem that goes: "It's okay to grow your wings on the way down." But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite. And when you're going downhill, you go faster and faster. Part of compassion is wishing to alleviate the suffering of others, but it's awfully hard to help those who refuse to help themselves.
Felisin does not overcome her trauma; she embraces it knowingly as poison to both herself and the people around her (even her moments of “helping others” are viewed internally in a self-serving way [that which can be as easily taken away as given come her capricious whims], though I can forgive that since philanthropy is motivated by self-interest as a rule). She does this embracing of trauma, I think, as a means to feed the ressentiment (her sense of “weakness or her inferiority complex and perhaps even jealousy in the face of the "cause" [subjugating power] which generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one's frustration”: Tavore/order/control. Is it any wonder she becomes the leader of the apocalypse cult?). So, she feeds this ressentiment to pave her unerring way to vengeance against, to drive the point in, *Tavore and what she represents*. Felisin chooses not to overcome because her motivations are not interested in living meaningfully. They are, and she is, interested only in destruction (mutually assured if that’s what it takes). So, when I say Felisin chooses to not “overcome her self-image of victimization” what I mean is that she chooses to remain bonded to being a victim in order to justify/feed her subsuming drive for vengeance. Felisin lacks a sustaining meaning, champions bitterness, vengefulness, anger, destructiveness, and we’re excusing that and are willing to claim she is a respectable character?
Again, do I understand her motivations? Yes. Can I sympathize with them at some level? Yes. Can I empathize with her? Am I willing to wear her skin, to feel and understand? Do I feel compassion for Felisin? Am I willing to be a co-sufferer. Yes-after all, I did carefully read her chapters more than once and thought them through with care. What occurs to her seemingly without choice, and her autonomous choices both, left me deeply saddened. But to what degree that sadness was pity...well.
And so this is where I diverge because I will not let my compassion justify or excuse her means. Is this pejorative judgement? Absolutely, but it’s absurd to assume that at any point one is not exacting this manner of judgement--we build up or tear down instantly as individuals are texts we read. We use what information we have to deem worthiness. By way of example, I would expect most, with little hesitation (snap pejorative judgement: unworthy of compassion), to not feel an abundance of compassion for a serial child murderer. One is deemed worthy of our compassion or not more often than should be the case; there’s no two ways about it. Without it we’d let permissiveness run entirely out of control. Felisin has earned my empathy, but she not earned my respect for the reasons above, and I will not simply give it to her or accept her choices because she has suffered so. Respect and acceptance are not compulsory, nor should they ever be; however, I would say that I agree with the notion that compassion should be freely given without expecting anything in trade. I would agree that is requisite for redemption. But this does not traverse over to respect, which is earned, nor acceptance. These are more complicated and come after.
As a final point, Felisin is not acting in a vacuum either. There are those around who try to offer her consolation. Heboric tries to render her various losses more bearable by inviting “some shift in belief about the point of living a life that includes suffering. Thus, consolation implies a period of transition: a preparation for a time when the present suffering will have turned (sound familiar?). Consolation promises that turning.” But, Felisin denies this possibility, and she does it *on purpose*.
To sum up my feelings: Felisin is repulsive to me, and my wife (who has a long history of working with trauma survivors and emotionally disturbed soldiers) both. We have talked this out at length. Our intense dislike of her has absolutely nothing to do with her sex, and everything to do with her choices when she does have agency.
In addition, negative responsibility is worthy of our consideration for all characters, Felisin included. “An agent is responsible not only for the consequences she produces by her own actions, but that she is also responsible for consequences that she allows to happen by other agents or events she fails to prevent other agents from producing.”
In the end, I agree that "compassion is a requisite for a meaningful existence and civilized society". But so too with what Silverfox says: "In all that is to come, think on forgiveness. Hold to it, but know too that it must not always be freely given." All said and done and in the inestimable words of the Dude: that’s just like, my opinion, man.
Yeah, why doesn't she just pull herself up by the bootstraps while drudging through the desert after escaping a prison of abuses that she was sent to after being betrayed by her sister? She's, like you said, an adolescent going through things that could be shrugged off if she got her head straight. Like, it's only been a couple of months of sustained trauma with no end in sight. Stop looking towards the past and the current awful circumstances in which you find yourself, think about a future that might never come. She's so much prettier when she smiles, she should totally just grow up and be happy already...
@@zadig08 literally not what anyone's saying. It is possible to understand her trauma and still not like her. Just like it's possible to make a cogent argument without being a jerk. 😀
I mean, I get it. The way she deals with her trauma makes you uncomfortable. That's fine. However, you literally booed her. I find it a bit silly that you want to call me the jerk for taking the prior comment to its logical conclusion.
As an enlisted vet, and as a guy that had an officer drug and try to rape me while still in the military, I feel confident saying that not everybody responds in the way we want them to when coming to terms with what's happened to them. We can't control that. We can, however, control our reaction to it and we choose whether or not we want to accept them and help them heal or blame them for their continued suffering.
@@zadig08 Logical conclusion? No. You straw manned the crap out of what I said to shoehorn in the same claims that keep getting made in defense of Felisin. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent what I am saying, and don't claim what you did not do. That isn't going to further the discussion. You appear to be interested in polemic--I'm not. I'm interested in expanding the discussion such that both sides and those between come to understand one another.
Folks keep saying Because trauma, actions understandable.
I am trying to get across that Because understandable, not acceptable or respectable.
Some opinions of mine: Compassion ought be freely given. Respect ought be earned. Acceptance ought be earned.
I am not victim blaming.
And yes, you're right, trying to enforce an ideal litmus test for proper behavior on an individual suffering sustained trauma is presumptious beyond belief. Good thing that isn't what I did either.
@@sweetlard2113 To elaborate on the thrust of your position is not to strawman you.
You said, "For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her 'feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness'... But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite.” You're putting the onus on her to start healing while ignoring the fact that she simply isn't in the space to begin that process. She's literally trying to survive while wondering through the desert and you're expecting her to have already begun the process 'overcoming her chains of victimhood'. It's not a reach to interpret that as expecting her to 'pull herself up by the bootstraps'.
The actual strawman in play is the claim that people outright excuse her actions. I don't think anybody does. Most people just wish she had the chance to start recovering which she never gets in this book. Some people, like yourself despite the protestations, just expect her to have started the healing process despite the sustained trauma. That's a pretty crummy expectation.
I can understand people not liking Felisin but I absolutely CANNOT understand people who don’t understand her actions given the trauma she has gone through.
I love Felisin. You know what? I’m willing cut a 15 year old CHILD some slack when they have been physically and sexually abused, forcibly addicted to drugs so as to be controlled, has Stockholm syndrome, has been forcibly removed from her noble life, was betrayed by her sister etc.