Remember that it took the dark lords hundreds or thousands of years to amass their armies, and only "showed" them once they already had overwhelming numbers.
Headcannon suggestion: the "birthing" of Lurtz in the movies wasn't his actual birth. Rather, him emerging from the dirty, slimy, membranous cocoon thing was merely the conclusion of some ritual or therapy which contributed to the full maturation of Saruman's Uruk-hai, as opposed to his basic Orcish servants. This way we can keep the reasonable assumption that Orcs multiply in the same way as Elves.
I notice in the films they portray gondor soliders as actual stormtroppers. In the invasion of Osgiliath scene the gondor soldiers/ithilien rangers killed a total of 4 orcs in melee (not including faramir and madril) while the orcs killed 20 soldiers in melee (21 including madril). Not to mention how the Gondor archers were literally shooting metal reinforced towers with arrows. With how awful they are in the movies, would you ever do a video describing how effective gondor soldiers are in the books in comparison to other soldiers. Notebly against orcs, easterlings, haradrim, etc.
@the nerd shack I understand the thought process he had but the way it was depicted was a bit strange. Like alot of the characters brush orcs aside as mindless rabble, then why are they beating this professionally trained army. I get you wanna make the threat more menacing but then dont have all the characters talk about how poor orcs all. I just feel there are better ways to show the weakness of gondor without making its professionally trained army a joke. There are some hints of it ofc spread throughout the films of gondor decline, I just dont rlly like how it was shown.
@No Thanks I wish there were more people who called this out. It's implied with Faramir's flashback to Boromir at Osgiliath that Gondor has a dominant military force when under good leadership. What I'm Peter Jackson was trying to show, ofc, was that under Denethor's pood leadership Gondor's military sucked. But 1. That doesn't explain why faramir's company at Osgiliath got fucked when faramir is a good leader and all of those soldiers were battle-hardened and 2. You cant have your cake and eat it too. Orcs are stated and shown as an inferior race many times throughout the movies, so then why am I seeing orcs body slam fully armored gondor soldiers?... I dont get it. To show Denethor's terrible leadership I would drive home the fact that Minas Tirith does not have enough soldiers. Its stated that gondor is not prepared, but it seems like they have plenty of soldiers. I like how Gandalf rallies the men to return to their posts and how the nazgul come in and terrify the men, but instead of Gandalf telling the archers to not shoot at metal fucking towers, I'd have him encourage a force of archers who are nearly about to break formation out of fear to hold their ground and shoot at a nazgul. I wouldnt have them take it down, but maybe have it retreat to osgiliath. This would also somewhat explain how gondor dealt with the nazgul because from what it looked like the nazgul should have completely destroyed minas tirith by nightfall cause we never see them actually dealt with.
The problem I have with the complaints of the portrayal of Gondor's soldiers in the movies is that they completely factor out that Gondor was clearly on the LOSING side at the time of the invasion of Minas Tirith. Even in the books, Tolkien mentioned Osgiliath as being under siege and constant attacks for well over a year, so it's not hard to imagine just how depleted Osgiliath's garrison was in both numbers and fighting spirit (Battle of Stalingrad was 5 months). In the film, it's clearly shown these soldiers were fighting all night and well into the morning. Mordor could afford to mount one attack after another with fresh troops replacing the orcs killed. Gondor, after many years of fighting off Umbar pirates, Southrons, Easterlings, and Orcs was overstretched and the main armies defending Minas Tirith a spent force. Plus, there are several scenes in Return of The King where the Gondorians are shown putting up a good fight despite being engaged in combat for possibly several days without rest.
@@emperorteasder993 by 40k lore the world of middle earth could be out there, somewhere, in the deep expanse. "Orcs born of heat and slime", fell magics and foul meats, is the likely origin for warhammers "orkoid fungus", also created as a weapon. Personally I think there's an orc on middle earth makes gazkhull thraka look like a gretchin, and the eldar took genetics from middle earth to create their ork weapon in the Necron wars, probably with the help of a Jedi who knew where the necrons had kept stargate jumps, to our earth(egypt), then middle earth. Need an extra universe in their at some point, but I like imagining dimension hopping jedi tying the world's together. A space marine, lost in the star wars universe, getting by as a bounty hunter would be a cool story.
I've always thought of female Orcs as something akin to the Broodmothers in Dragon Age Origins. Like Tolkien's orcs, Broodmothers were originally human, elven, or dwarven females who were kidnapped and corrupted. They then transform into these large, vile creatures the size of a troll, whose sole purpose is to create dozens, if not hundreds of evil creatures, those obviously being Orcs in LotR. So in my opinion, when Morgoth corrupted the Elves to create Orcs, he also corrupted female Elves, who turned out to be creatures similar to Broodmothers.
I hope that isn't the case. LOTR Orcs may be evil, but I think the Darkspawn from Dragon Age are on another level. I would prefer to think that Broodmothers, or something like them, don't exist in Middle-earth.
Male orcs and male elves were also corrupted into orcs at least by Morgoth during the Years of the Trees and the First Age, problably the same corrupting or "franksteinish" experiences kept happening with Sauron, but now mostly with men (because the elves were so much lesser in number). Of course there was female humans and elves who were rap*&# by orcs since the the time of Morgoth, but Tolkien splitted half-orcs from orcs, for example, so we can assume half-orcs were problably a result of r@p!ng but most of the orcs were indeed born from orcish mothers. There was also speculations about the origins of the "Uruk-Hais" (both those from Sauron and Saruman) that they were half-orcs, but there is nothing in the Legendarium that confirms this subject, on contrary, problably it's a thing also related with their diet of eating man's flesh... however, we can assume that the Uruk-Hai were simply a product of an "Eugenics" experience, firstly by Sauron and then by Saruman, they simply selected the most strong and resilient male and female orcs to give birth to stronger orcs and leaving the weakest to die or only produce the so called "snaga" ("slaves") lesser orcs who were more often used as a labour force and/or a expendable force to fight on the frontline during wars.
In our world the scale of war vastly increased between the medieval period and the industrial age, due to greater centralisation of states and improvements in agriculture. Maybe Sauron had industrialised, fertiliser dependant farms, so that he could do a Napoleon-style Levee en Masse while the Free Peoples were stuck with nobles and levies. Tolkien famously hated these trends, so of course the Dark Lord would try to replicate them.
Here's an interesting question, how did Sauron feed these masses of orcs? Orcs must have been an advanced agricultural society to support massive armies.
_"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nurnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves."_ - RotK
I think also beyond the fields near Nurnin, they eat their dead and weak/injured etc. One adult orc could feed a few orcs for a week or so if the flesh is preserved and all parts of the body made use of. With as many orcs as there are, their dead would be an almost constant food source!!
Orcish population growth is not about breeding orcs, its about feeding them. Whats surprising about middle earth is not that there are giant numbers of orcs its that there is not a giant population of humans. This is because most of middle earth is vast tracts of fertile land which has stood empty for thousands of years.
There are a lot of humans in the east and south, vastly outnumbering the northmen and men of eriador, the vast majority of humanity serves evil. The men of the west are so deminished mainly due to genocide and depression at a civilizational level
Sauron with the help of necromancers and sorcerers could multiply the number of orcs. In the movies we can also see the cocoon like breeding pits which accelerated orcish production
Remember in The Hobbit when Gollum was talking about how he had caught a small goblin imp and how it squeaked! So obviously goblin/orcs have imps, children not being the proper word for such an evil creature. Don't forget Bolg, son of Azog that same Azog whom Dain Ironfoot killed on the steps of Moria.
Are you going based on the movie? Cause in the books he was long dead by then. Do you know Thorins flashback scene where he fights with a treebranch and gets his name oakenshield. Well at that same battle at Moria. Dain killed Azog, infact in the hobbit at the battle of five armies in the hobbit Dains troops chant "Dain! Moria" as they charge into battle.
It is pretty simple. If every Orc woman has a genetic predisposition for twins, then even three pregnancies is 6 orcs, which given their mortality rate, still gives them 3 who survive to adulthood. Galadriel had one child in 6,000 years.
@@gm2407 she's honestly lucky she had a child that had a child, so that her bloodline will run strong and in great numbers by the time after Aragorn's death, since it's suggested he had a lot of daughters, so Galadriel despite having only one daughter is the x2 great grandmother of probably every important man in Gondor by the time of the reign of Eldarion.
@@celtofcanaanesurix2245 I thought Aragorn and Arwen had one son and 2 daughters. The way nobility works if the royal family line is not entirely wiped out it becomes part of the base for most of the established nobel houses.
You should do a video of how the gatehouse in the battle for minas tirith managed to stay manned by the men of Gondor after the lower levels of the city have long since fallen. It’s always been one of the more confusing things to me.
According to the MERP, orc women exist almost solely as breeders, hidden away in the most protected areas of their strongholds. Orc imps gestate in less than half a year, often in litters of several, and they fully mature before they’ve even reached the double digits in age.
Maybe the Original orcs who where elves before they got tortured could be reversed under the right circumstances but i think like the 500th Generation of orcs could not be reversed to become a elv again
@@corbynmorisette5316 I doubt that could undo thousands of years of evil being ingrained into their blood through forced selection like humanoid pitbulls on steroids
Towards the end of his life Tolkien was considering revising the legendarium to have orcs be corrupted men instead of elves (which would have required a much earlier awakening of the Second Children of Ilúvatar), since the fate of elves and orcs after death is incompatible.
It did help for the orcs that they were all united together oppose to how the elves, dwarves, and man were at odds with each other. The dwarves and elves more or less disliked one another and as for man individual kingdoms remaining separate oppose to being united under one ruler, had their been no alliance with the men and elves it is most likely the orc armies would've eventually crushed all of them one by one through sheer numbers and being united under one ruler.
Yeah, it is in rooted in biology too. Species that live fast and die young tend to adopt the 'produce tons and tons of babies that can wean really quickly' strategy. Many small rodents produce multiple sets of litter per year that can produce 6+ individuals that only takes weeks/months to reach adulthood. Many of these same species can also vary their breeding patterns based on the availability of food sources so when food is plentiful, they reproduce ALOT. It also explains why Mordor is always keen on expanding its borders into the fertile lands of the West. Even humans do this,. Back when infant mortality rate was high, people tend to have many, many children. The Amazon series can really expand on this too, and show orcish society. There are many things that are implied or outright mentioned by Tolkien but never included in any of the books so they are still technically canon.
It's called the R and K strategy and not all people are the same. And it doesn't matter about infant mortality. Black's and whites have different biological strategies even Nevermind other animals lol though not as pronounced of course, still a trend.
Though I have to wonder if they breed SO fast how did they decline post the fall of sauron? Surely they would continue to increase in number after that.
Orcish society doesn’t revolve around war. It’s just that we only see them when they’re fighting the good guys. During peacetime, they live more normal lives in their villages. Also, Sauron had thousands of years to prepare, so he likely accumulated many orcs over that time period naturally.
Have you thought about doing a what if seires like what Fingon had got through the gate to Morgoth i've seen a few what ifs on Tolkin but they mostly focus on the third age and i think a First and Second age would be intresting
Orcs are chaotic if left on their own, but they become very subserviant if ruled by a powerful figure. That makes them perfect soldiers for Sauron; most will obey orders without hesitation, and those that don't obey can easily just be killed and replaced.
I feel like the point you make about being a species bred for war is a far more important factor than their actual birth rate. Like you said: almost all of their manpower were likely to be used as soldiers. And in times when they serve a dark lord, we see that they don't need to worry about their food - after all, Sauron used his huge slave-fields around the Sea of Nurnen to provide for his massive armies. Even if female Orcs aren't used as soldiers, we can still assume that 40% of the Orcish population could be used for war. Meanwhile, warriors amongst Men are far rarer. We're probably talking about 1% of the population being trained soldiers. I don't suspect Orcs to be able to sustain a larger population than Men - since their culture and society simply doesn't allow for it. However, if given the economical backing Orcs simply didn't need as big of a population to outnumber Men in military numbers. They don't even need to breed faster than Men - although I also suspect breeding programs to be the norm when a Dark Lord is leading them.
@hunter christensen Levies were probably used in Gondor too (seeing those fishermen from Anfalas arriving at Minas Tirith). However, I don't think this would add up to such enormous portions of the population as is the case with Orcs.
How come my orc armies are so much bigger than saurons according to your estimates when the war of wrath began I had 1 million Orcs sauron only had like 300,000 and he has all of Mordor and thousands of years without powerful enemies I only had one fortress and I managed to raise hundreds of thousands within a few centuries despite constant war with the Noldor
To add another theory - Morgoth poured much of his personal power into his creations during the First Age, so much so that by the end of the War of Wrath, most of his power was spent. Sauron did no such thing as far as we know. That could explain why Morgoth's armies were so much more powerful.
Morgoth was also a Valar... and he essentially created Orcs. With his more or less god like powers he must have been able to significantly influence the breeding rate of Orcs.
I suppose Orc have a very high infant survival rate , probably immune to disease. So an Orc may have 10 kids and all 10 survive but humans have 10 kids and 6 survive to adult hood.
@@DarthGandalfYT I don't think there is a difference between Sauron's and Saruman's Uruks. Linguistically "uruks" only makes sense as an anglicization of the Black Speech term "Uruk-hai", as seen in the index of Unfinished Tales. So I highly doubt Saruman created a superior kind of Orcs (as opposed to Half-orcs of course, which Saruman did breed, but aren't Uruk-hai).
I’d guess pretty weak considering they were still recovering from the War of the Ring. I think it would be pretty strong though at the time of Aragorn’s death, because Gondor would have considerable time to recover by then.
Navin Davoodi overall, concerning the books, the losses of Gondor weren‘t that much! You have to consider that in the books, the gate got rammed in too, but they didn‘t need to withdraw to another level of the city! Their cavalry even charged out, followed by infantry! And since Aragorn with help of the grey company and the oathbreakers defeated the corsairs, all the men hold back by the fiefdoms (in cases like Lossarnach around 90% of fighting men) survived the war! I would still estimate their manpower between 15.000-20.000 at the end of the war, which is a strong force in comparison to what everyone else had previously lost in the war
I think that it is heavily influenced by dark magic. Orcs are often compared to insects like flies and they tend to lay eggs in the hundreds or thousands. So it stands to think that orc children are birthed in near the same way, though likely not in that amount. Orc children are then artificially grown with dark spells making them grown adults in just a few weeks. Oddly enough Warcraft did just this in the first Orc invasion, artificially aging their children to replenish their numbers. Which explains why their numbers and quality goes down drastically when their dark lord is overthrown. Just my thought.
This question (and excellent response) raises two more questions in my mind; - what, outside violent death, would have been the average lifespan of an Orc ? Especially if we consider the "corrupted Elf" theory as origin cannon? Perhaps if they could no longer fight they went "on the menu" but if not all did, was there such a thing as a wise elder Orc? - how many years would it take for a newborn Orc to reach acceptable battle fighting age? Perhaps 15 Human years would suffice? As for what purposes did female Orcs serve other than breeding stock and child rearing, I'm sure many fought alongside the males all the time. Especially if they suffered menopause like Human women (though I have no clue if Elven women ever did, so see Elf origin again). Otherwise, perhaps baggage train handlers, farmers, cooks and other sundry admin duties.
I like think Morgoth made them like this to remain a stain middle earth for ever,kinda like a metaphore for his hate and envy of the other gods creations.Forever lurking in the nookes and crannies,forever watchful and hateful of all the other good races.
As far as we know, they aren't immortal. Tolkien mentions at one point that they live shorter lives than Men, but we know for a fact that Bolg was almost 150 when he was killed at the Battle of the Five Armies. Either Tolkien was contradicting himself or he meant that they live shorter lives than the Dunedain/Numenoreans.
This ignores the rather larger question: It is not HOW you get Orcs (Mordor's Health Classes are very direct on that matter with some very on point homework) It is back to something that Tolkein essentially hand waves away: How do huge Orc armies FEED themselves. It takes about 2 pounds of grains to feed one Orc per day (3000 calories for a fighting Orc). So even a small army of 100,000 is 100 tons PER DAY. God knows what a Troll eats. I don't recall hearing Sam or Frodo describe the verdant fields of Mordor, the stately orchards, or the lowing of the massive herds of cattle. (Never mind the hordes in Moria.) Got an answer for that?
The region of Nurn in Mordor's south is Sauron's breadbasket. The land isn't great, but it's watered by the inland Sea of Nurn and fertilised by volcanic ash from Mount Doom. It's worked by Sauron's vast hordes of slaves from lands he has dominated in the south and east. That is what feeds Sauron's armies. As for the Orcs in places like Moria - that's a little bit more difficult. There might be subterranean animals and plants they survive off.
So you probably don't want to but you need to do a video, or series, looking at the parallels & metaphors between the war in Ukraine & Tolkien's Legendarium. The latter is directly relevant on multiple levels to current events.
I wonder what actually happened to Lady Celebrian when she was captured by the Orcs of the Misty Mountains.. what was this "poisonous wound"? Why didn't they kill her, just like the rest of her followers (yes I know they probably knew that she was special and not just any elf, and it's a valuable negotiation asset or etc etc)? Did she go to this "Program"? I mean, that might explain why there was such a strong line of powerful and intelligent orcs like Bolg and Azog a few hundred years later (also with their special physical characteristics, like big and pale, and of course not a fair opponent for ordinary warrior of the free people in a duel). Imagine how many Azog and Bolg existed from the "mockery" of the elves.. these firstborn creation probably also became Morgoth's elites after the Balrogs.
According to Tolkien elves would give up their spirit (and therefore go to the Halls of Mandos) before allowing themselves to be raped. So any rape of a captured elf would also be necrophilia.
@@MountainFisher Because the most popular belief is that orcs are the Avari (Dark elves who refused the call of the Valar) who were enslaved and mutilated by Morgoth both as a mockery to Eru and as tools for war, and since elves are immortal so would orcs be.
@@thelightningking9640 I think they're long lived, but because they were mutilated and debased they might not be immortal. Hard to say, but you may be right, yet remember Feanor's mother? I can't remember her name, but she was so used up and lost so much life force to Feanor she died in the undying lands.
You have to consider that the last meeting of the white council was in 2952 and in 2953, Steward sturgeon died so Saruman became an unchecked Lord of Isengard, doing whatever he wanted! We can assume that around the year 3000 TA he was starting to amass resources and manpower, the events of The Fellowship starting in 3018! So he had at least 60 years of preparation and roughly 15 years to assemble manpower (well, outside of the Orthanc since Gandalf mentions the destructions only AFTER he got imprisoned in late 3018)
Remember in The Hobbit when Gollum was talking about how he had caught a small goblin imp and how it squeaked! So obviously goblin/orcs have imps, children not being the proper word for such an evil creature.
I do not think that is realistic to assume massive Ork numbers. Orks are not magical creatures, they still need to eat and drink, i.e consume resources, even if that means consuming each other. The Ork population cannot escape its biology that has the similar limitations as with other races. A mass breeding program could justify the quick replenishment of losses during battles, but Mordor (which is the main stronghold of Sauron) seems to be quite a barren place to sustain many hundreds of thousands of Orks that are good-for-nothing except crafts of evil.
@@DarthGandalfYT they can probably also eat their own dead and their weak/injured etc, which is also a constant food source. I'm sure I heard orcish cannibalism mentioned somewhere in Tolkien's writings!
The we can't tell the differences makes sense for female orcs. We know that Morgoth breed them as soldiers. Why would he keep 50% of them as weaker and less muscular. This mostly likely the reason they only have mass breeding under the control of a greater power. As a greater power is needed to force the females to stay back and breed as normally they would be out raiding with men and having less kids and dying more often.
It would not be surprising to have an academic paper presented at the Tolkien Society conference arguing that genocide of orcs is symbolism for European colonial genocide of indigenous population, or some such nonsense.
Remember that it took the dark lords hundreds or thousands of years to amass their armies, and only "showed" them once they already had overwhelming numbers.
Headcannon suggestion: the "birthing" of Lurtz in the movies wasn't his actual birth. Rather, him emerging from the dirty, slimy, membranous cocoon thing was merely the conclusion of some ritual or therapy which contributed to the full maturation of Saruman's Uruk-hai, as opposed to his basic Orcish servants. This way we can keep the reasonable assumption that Orcs multiply in the same way as Elves.
I notice in the films they portray gondor soliders as actual stormtroppers. In the invasion of Osgiliath scene the gondor soldiers/ithilien rangers killed a total of 4 orcs in melee (not including faramir and madril) while the orcs killed 20 soldiers in melee (21 including madril). Not to mention how the Gondor archers were literally shooting metal reinforced towers with arrows. With how awful they are in the movies, would you ever do a video describing how effective gondor soldiers are in the books in comparison to other soldiers. Notebly against orcs, easterlings, haradrim, etc.
nice thought
I second this.
@the nerd shack I understand the thought process he had but the way it was depicted was a bit strange. Like alot of the characters brush orcs aside as mindless rabble, then why are they beating this professionally trained army. I get you wanna make the threat more menacing but then dont have all the characters talk about how poor orcs all. I just feel there are better ways to show the weakness of gondor without making its professionally trained army a joke. There are some hints of it ofc spread throughout the films of gondor decline, I just dont rlly like how it was shown.
@No Thanks I wish there were more people who called this out. It's implied with Faramir's flashback to Boromir at Osgiliath that Gondor has a dominant military force when under good leadership. What I'm Peter Jackson was trying to show, ofc, was that under Denethor's pood leadership Gondor's military sucked. But 1. That doesn't explain why faramir's company at Osgiliath got fucked when faramir is a good leader and all of those soldiers were battle-hardened and 2. You cant have your cake and eat it too. Orcs are stated and shown as an inferior race many times throughout the movies, so then why am I seeing orcs body slam fully armored gondor soldiers?... I dont get it. To show Denethor's terrible leadership I would drive home the fact that Minas Tirith does not have enough soldiers. Its stated that gondor is not prepared, but it seems like they have plenty of soldiers. I like how Gandalf rallies the men to return to their posts and how the nazgul come in and terrify the men, but instead of Gandalf telling the archers to not shoot at metal fucking towers, I'd have him encourage a force of archers who are nearly about to break formation out of fear to hold their ground and shoot at a nazgul. I wouldnt have them take it down, but maybe have it retreat to osgiliath. This would also somewhat explain how gondor dealt with the nazgul because from what it looked like the nazgul should have completely destroyed minas tirith by nightfall cause we never see them actually dealt with.
The problem I have with the complaints of the portrayal of Gondor's soldiers in the movies is that they completely factor out that Gondor was clearly on the LOSING side at the time of the invasion of Minas Tirith. Even in the books, Tolkien mentioned Osgiliath as being under siege and constant attacks for well over a year, so it's not hard to imagine just how depleted Osgiliath's garrison was in both numbers and fighting spirit (Battle of Stalingrad was 5 months). In the film, it's clearly shown these soldiers were fighting all night and well into the morning. Mordor could afford to mount one attack after another with fresh troops replacing the orcs killed. Gondor, after many years of fighting off Umbar pirates, Southrons, Easterlings, and Orcs was overstretched and the main armies defending Minas Tirith a spent force. Plus, there are several scenes in Return of The King where the Gondorians are shown putting up a good fight despite being engaged in combat for possibly several days without rest.
Orks at their best when they got a good WAAAGH
And tons of dakka!
WAAAAGH DAKKA DAKKA
Wrong fantasy
@@emperorteasder993 by 40k lore the world of middle earth could be out there, somewhere, in the deep expanse. "Orcs born of heat and slime", fell magics and foul meats, is the likely origin for warhammers "orkoid fungus", also created as a weapon. Personally I think there's an orc on middle earth makes gazkhull thraka look like a gretchin, and the eldar took genetics from middle earth to create their ork weapon in the Necron wars, probably with the help of a Jedi who knew where the necrons had kept stargate jumps, to our earth(egypt), then middle earth. Need an extra universe in their at some point, but I like imagining dimension hopping jedi tying the world's together. A space marine, lost in the star wars universe, getting by as a bounty hunter would be a cool story.
If dey just have a purple orc, it's been done already, 'Nuff said
I've always thought of female Orcs as something akin to the Broodmothers in Dragon Age Origins. Like Tolkien's orcs, Broodmothers were originally human, elven, or dwarven females who were kidnapped and corrupted. They then transform into these large, vile creatures the size of a troll, whose sole purpose is to create dozens, if not hundreds of evil creatures, those obviously being Orcs in LotR. So in my opinion, when Morgoth corrupted the Elves to create Orcs, he also corrupted female Elves, who turned out to be creatures similar to Broodmothers.
I hope that isn't the case. LOTR Orcs may be evil, but I think the Darkspawn from Dragon Age are on another level. I would prefer to think that Broodmothers, or something like them, don't exist in Middle-earth.
Male orcs and male elves were also corrupted into orcs at least by Morgoth during the Years of the Trees and the First Age, problably the same corrupting or "franksteinish" experiences kept happening with Sauron, but now mostly with men (because the elves were so much lesser in number).
Of course there was female humans and elves who were rap*&# by orcs since the the time of Morgoth, but Tolkien splitted half-orcs from orcs, for example, so we can assume half-orcs were problably a result of r@p!ng but most of the orcs were indeed born from orcish mothers.
There was also speculations about the origins of the "Uruk-Hais" (both those from Sauron and Saruman) that they were half-orcs, but there is nothing in the Legendarium that confirms this subject, on contrary, problably it's a thing also related with their diet of eating man's flesh... however, we can assume that the Uruk-Hai were simply a product of an "Eugenics" experience, firstly by Sauron and then by Saruman, they simply selected the most strong and resilient male and female orcs to give birth to stronger orcs and leaving the weakest to die or only produce the so called "snaga" ("slaves") lesser orcs who were more often used as a labour force and/or a expendable force to fight on the frontline during wars.
@@DarthGandalfYT Other than Shelob, of course.
@DarthGandalfYT In 40k, Orcs are basically created fungal spores that quickly create orcs without the need of orcs growing up and such.
Criminally underrated channel
In our world the scale of war vastly increased between the medieval period and the industrial age, due to greater centralisation of states and improvements in agriculture. Maybe Sauron had industrialised, fertiliser dependant farms, so that he could do a Napoleon-style Levee en Masse while the Free Peoples were stuck with nobles and levies. Tolkien famously hated these trends, so of course the Dark Lord would try to replicate them.
I would assume Orcs Reach maturity and can reproduce on a quicker time scale than humans.
Here's an interesting question, how did Sauron feed these masses of orcs? Orcs must have been an advanced agricultural society to support massive armies.
_"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nurnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves."_ - RotK
I think also beyond the fields near Nurnin, they eat their dead and weak/injured etc. One adult orc could feed a few orcs for a week or so if the flesh is preserved and all parts of the body made use of. With as many orcs as there are, their dead would be an almost constant food source!!
They have had nothing but maggoty bread for three stinking days.
Orcas were like the Huns. They would eat anything that walked, flew, or slithered about on the ground. Human locusts.
@@MasterBombadillo Booty? lol
Orcish population growth is not about breeding orcs, its about feeding them.
Whats surprising about middle earth is not that there are giant numbers of orcs its that there is not a giant population of humans. This is because most of middle earth is vast tracts of fertile land which has stood empty for thousands of years.
There are a lot of humans in the east and south, vastly outnumbering the northmen and men of eriador, the vast majority of humanity serves evil.
The men of the west are so deminished mainly due to genocide and depression at a civilizational level
So Orcs are more numerous than free Men because Sauron's minions have waged a millennia-long scorched earth campaign against the latter?
Your channel probs gonna blow up when Lotr tv show arrives. That would be nice, you seem like a good guy
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Sauron with the help of necromancers and sorcerers could multiply the number of orcs. In the movies we can also see the cocoon like breeding pits which accelerated orcish production
This is an epic channel keep up the great work man
Remember in The Hobbit when Gollum was talking about how he had caught a small goblin imp and how it squeaked! So obviously goblin/orcs have imps, children not being the proper word for such an evil creature. Don't forget Bolg, son of Azog that same Azog whom Dain Ironfoot killed on the steps of Moria.
@hunter christensen Are you serious?
Azog was a great leader. Too bad we don't get to see more Orcs like him.
Are you going based on the movie? Cause in the books he was long dead by then. Do you know Thorins flashback scene where he fights with a treebranch and gets his name oakenshield. Well at that same battle at Moria. Dain killed Azog, infact in the hobbit at the battle of five armies in the hobbit Dains troops chant "Dain! Moria" as they charge into battle.
@@Bringmeoneofthosechickens I know the books and movies are different. I love both portrayals. His son was impressive as well.
@@TOTCD I kinda wish they had used Bolg instead of Azog for most of the post-Azanulbizar scenes in the movies.
Well, he was a great leader in that he let the others do his fighting, and when things went wrong he tried to run and hide.
@@thecriticalwookiee9321 a missed opportunity for "you killed my father, prepare to die" cannot be forgiven.
It is pretty simple. If every Orc woman has a genetic predisposition for twins, then even three pregnancies is 6 orcs, which given their mortality rate, still gives them 3 who survive to adulthood.
Galadriel had one child in 6,000 years.
Galadriel probably has a vivid memory. Tries child birth once, didnt like it so never tried again.
@@gm2407 she's honestly lucky she had a child that had a child, so that her bloodline will run strong and in great numbers by the time after Aragorn's death, since it's suggested he had a lot of daughters, so Galadriel despite having only one daughter is the x2 great grandmother of probably every important man in Gondor by the time of the reign of Eldarion.
@@celtofcanaanesurix2245 I thought Aragorn and Arwen had one son and 2 daughters. The way nobility works if the royal family line is not entirely wiped out it becomes part of the base for most of the established nobel houses.
You should do a video of how the gatehouse in the battle for minas tirith managed to stay manned by the men of Gondor after the lower levels of the city have long since fallen. It’s always been one of the more confusing things to me.
Orcs are great cannon fonder.
According to the MERP, orc women exist almost solely as breeders, hidden away in the most protected areas of their strongholds. Orc imps gestate in less than half a year, often in litters of several, and they fully mature before they’ve even reached the double digits in age.
Question: Is the corruption process that made elves into orcs reversible?
Yes. King elessar (aragorn) got cool healing hands powers at the end of book that could heal mind and body. Surely he could use it to cure the orcs
My guess is no. Orcs seem to be pretty irredeemable.
Maybe the Original orcs who where elves before they got tortured could be reversed under the right circumstances but i think like the 500th Generation of orcs could not be reversed to become a elv again
@@corbynmorisette5316 I doubt that could undo thousands of years of evil being ingrained into their blood through forced selection like humanoid pitbulls on steroids
Towards the end of his life Tolkien was considering revising the legendarium to have orcs be corrupted men instead of elves (which would have required a much earlier awakening of the Second Children of Ilúvatar), since the fate of elves and orcs after death is incompatible.
Excellent content as always sir.
It did help for the orcs that they were all united together oppose to how the elves, dwarves, and man were at odds with each other. The dwarves and elves more or less disliked one another and as for man individual kingdoms remaining separate oppose to being united under one ruler, had their been no alliance with the men and elves it is most likely the orc armies would've eventually crushed all of them one by one through sheer numbers and being united under one ruler.
Gorbag and Shagrat might disagree on the being united part.
@@tominiowa2513 Fair point but they did mostly cooperate with one another, oppose to how the other kingdoms chose not to align with one another.
They were only united during times of war or under a leader
@Darth Gandalf would you do a video or interview with History Of Middle Earth's channel?
make it happen!
amazing work bro keep up the job, no channel makes anything similar
Yeah, it is in rooted in biology too. Species that live fast and die young tend to adopt the 'produce tons and tons of babies that can wean really quickly' strategy. Many small rodents produce multiple sets of litter per year that can produce 6+ individuals that only takes weeks/months to reach adulthood.
Many of these same species can also vary their breeding patterns based on the availability of food sources so when food is plentiful, they reproduce ALOT. It also explains why Mordor is always keen on expanding its borders into the fertile lands of the West.
Even humans do this,. Back when infant mortality rate was high, people tend to have many, many children.
The Amazon series can really expand on this too, and show orcish society. There are many things that are implied or outright mentioned by Tolkien but never included in any of the books so they are still technically canon.
It's called the R and K strategy and not all people are the same. And it doesn't matter about infant mortality.
Black's and whites have different biological strategies even Nevermind other animals lol though not as pronounced of course, still a trend.
That thumbnail looks like one of those unit group photos.
Being Dark Lord means never having to worry about Logistics.
Though I have to wonder if they breed SO fast how did they decline post the fall of sauron? Surely they would continue to increase in number after that.
Orcish society doesn’t revolve around war. It’s just that we only see them when they’re fighting the good guys. During peacetime, they live more normal lives in their villages. Also, Sauron had thousands of years to prepare, so he likely accumulated many orcs over that time period naturally.
Be Great If You Could Do A Video On The History Of Celebinbor And The Founding Of The Morgath Triumvirate In The Future?
Have you thought about doing a what if seires like what Fingon had got through the gate to Morgoth i've seen a few what ifs on Tolkin but they mostly focus on the third age and i think a First and Second age would be intresting
We need a what if Morgoth won
@@Morgoth1889 That is our current reality.
Just had a thoguht too, if orcs are so chaotic, and Sauron wanted order, how does that play together?
Orcs are chaotic if left on their own, but they become very subserviant if ruled by a powerful figure. That makes them perfect soldiers for Sauron; most will obey orders without hesitation, and those that don't obey can easily just be killed and replaced.
I feel like the point you make about being a species bred for war is a far more important factor than their actual birth rate. Like you said: almost all of their manpower were likely to be used as soldiers. And in times when they serve a dark lord, we see that they don't need to worry about their food - after all, Sauron used his huge slave-fields around the Sea of Nurnen to provide for his massive armies. Even if female Orcs aren't used as soldiers, we can still assume that 40% of the Orcish population could be used for war.
Meanwhile, warriors amongst Men are far rarer. We're probably talking about 1% of the population being trained soldiers. I don't suspect Orcs to be able to sustain a larger population than Men - since their culture and society simply doesn't allow for it. However, if given the economical backing Orcs simply didn't need as big of a population to outnumber Men in military numbers. They don't even need to breed faster than Men - although I also suspect breeding programs to be the norm when a Dark Lord is leading them.
@hunter christensen Levies were probably used in Gondor too (seeing those fishermen from Anfalas arriving at Minas Tirith). However, I don't think this would add up to such enormous portions of the population as is the case with Orcs.
How come my orc armies are so much bigger than saurons according to your estimates when the war of wrath began I had 1 million Orcs sauron only had like 300,000 and he has all of Mordor and thousands of years without powerful enemies I only had one fortress and I managed to raise hundreds of thousands within a few centuries despite constant war with the Noldor
because everything was bigger in the 1st age
Alfie Roe In other words there is no logical reason and it’s just to follow the theme of Lord of the rings which is decline makes me kind of sad
To add another theory - Morgoth poured much of his personal power into his creations during the First Age, so much so that by the end of the War of Wrath, most of his power was spent. Sauron did no such thing as far as we know. That could explain why Morgoth's armies were so much more powerful.
Morgoth was also a Valar... and he essentially created Orcs. With his more or less god like powers he must have been able to significantly influence the breeding rate of Orcs.
@@Morgoth1889 Well, your corruption of Arda is the cause of the decline.
I suppose Orc have a very high infant survival rate , probably immune to disease. So an Orc may have 10 kids and all 10 survive but humans have 10 kids and 6 survive to adult hood.
spamming orcs from orc pits ahhaha(bfme players will understand)....
lol goblins for DAYSSSSSSSS.
Until they all die in less than 20 seconds... then spam more goblins!
So “technically “ (I know) they do show one female orc in the films. The orc with the skull in his head. That is the skull of his mother.
Suddenly I wish the mud orc theory was true.
Where did the Black Uruks come from?
They first emerged from Mordor in 2475 T.A. They were Sauron's elite soldiers. Saruman later improved on them by creating Uruk-hai.
@@DarthGandalfYT I don't think there is a difference between Sauron's and Saruman's Uruks. Linguistically "uruks" only makes sense as an anglicization of the Black Speech term "Uruk-hai", as seen in the index of Unfinished Tales. So I highly doubt Saruman created a superior kind of Orcs (as opposed to Half-orcs of course, which Saruman did breed, but aren't Uruk-hai).
Darth Gandalf what do you think is the strengh of gondors Army in the First few years of the fourth age
I’d guess pretty weak considering they were still recovering from the War of the Ring. I think it would be pretty strong though at the time of Aragorn’s death, because Gondor would have considerable time to recover by then.
Navin Davoodi overall, concerning the books, the losses of Gondor weren‘t that much! You have to consider that in the books, the gate got rammed in too, but they didn‘t need to withdraw to another level of the city! Their cavalry even charged out, followed by infantry!
And since Aragorn with help of the grey company and the oathbreakers defeated the corsairs, all the men hold back by the fiefdoms (in cases like Lossarnach around 90% of fighting men) survived the war! I would still estimate their manpower between 15.000-20.000 at the end of the war, which is a strong force in comparison to what everyone else had previously lost in the war
Michèl Morio good point. I was only taking into consideration the movies for some reason
OK so Just a few thousand men actually died in the war but what about the First few years after the war Like 10 years or so after
Excellent Tolkien lore channel.
I think that it is heavily influenced by dark magic. Orcs are often compared to insects like flies and they tend to lay eggs in the hundreds or thousands. So it stands to think that orc children are birthed in near the same way, though likely not in that amount. Orc children are then artificially grown with dark spells making them grown adults in just a few weeks. Oddly enough Warcraft did just this in the first Orc invasion, artificially aging their children to replenish their numbers. Which explains why their numbers and quality goes down drastically when their dark lord is overthrown. Just my thought.
One day this channel will be so big that I won't be the only one saying "first"
This question (and excellent response) raises two more questions in my mind;
- what, outside violent death, would have been the average lifespan of an Orc ? Especially if we consider the "corrupted Elf" theory as origin cannon? Perhaps if they could no longer fight they went "on the menu" but if not all did, was there such a thing as a wise elder Orc?
- how many years would it take for a newborn Orc to reach acceptable battle fighting age? Perhaps 15 Human years would suffice?
As for what purposes did female Orcs serve other than breeding stock and child rearing, I'm sure many fought alongside the males all the time. Especially if they suffered menopause like Human women (though I have no clue if Elven women ever did, so see Elf origin again). Otherwise, perhaps baggage train handlers, farmers, cooks and other sundry admin duties.
I like a video on Orc Culture in Tolkien's world in more detail!
Ah yes orcs all just hate babies
Does this theory also counts for the movies ??
Yes, Morgoth's corruption accounts for the movies.
I like think Morgoth made them like this to remain a stain middle earth for ever,kinda like a metaphore for his hate and envy of the other gods creations.Forever lurking in the nookes and crannies,forever watchful and hateful of all the other good races.
Urkhai and orcs are different tho
They're both Orcs. Uruk-hai are just stronger, better Orcs.
Great videos. just found you. subscribed also.
Orcs don’t pull out😉
Randy buggers. Up and down like the Assyrian Empire....
Assyrians???
Makes sense
Are orcs immortal?
As far as we know, they aren't immortal. Tolkien mentions at one point that they live shorter lives than Men, but we know for a fact that Bolg was almost 150 when he was killed at the Battle of the Five Armies. Either Tolkien was contradicting himself or he meant that they live shorter lives than the Dunedain/Numenoreans.
This ignores the rather larger question: It is not HOW you get Orcs (Mordor's Health Classes are very direct on that matter with some very on point homework)
It is back to something that Tolkein essentially hand waves away: How do huge Orc armies FEED themselves.
It takes about 2 pounds of grains to feed one Orc per day (3000 calories for a fighting Orc). So even a small army of 100,000 is 100 tons PER DAY. God knows what a Troll eats.
I don't recall hearing Sam or Frodo describe the verdant fields of Mordor, the stately orchards, or the lowing of the massive herds of cattle. (Never mind the hordes in Moria.)
Got an answer for that?
The region of Nurn in Mordor's south is Sauron's breadbasket. The land isn't great, but it's watered by the inland Sea of Nurn and fertilised by volcanic ash from Mount Doom. It's worked by Sauron's vast hordes of slaves from lands he has dominated in the south and east. That is what feeds Sauron's armies.
As for the Orcs in places like Moria - that's a little bit more difficult. There might be subterranean animals and plants they survive off.
So you probably don't want to but you need to do a video, or series, looking at the parallels & metaphors between the war in Ukraine & Tolkien's Legendarium. The latter is directly relevant on multiple levels to current events.
Do you really want to know that answer? Ahem!
I wonder what actually happened to Lady Celebrian when she was captured by the Orcs of the Misty Mountains.. what was this "poisonous wound"? Why didn't they kill her, just like the rest of her followers (yes I know they probably knew that she was special and not just any elf, and it's a valuable negotiation asset or etc etc)? Did she go to this "Program"? I mean, that might explain why there was such a strong line of powerful and intelligent orcs like Bolg and Azog a few hundred years later (also with their special physical characteristics, like big and pale, and of course not a fair opponent for ordinary warrior of the free people in a duel). Imagine how many Azog and Bolg existed from the "mockery" of the elves.. these firstborn creation probably also became Morgoth's elites after the Balrogs.
According to Tolkien elves would give up their spirit (and therefore go to the Halls of Mandos) before allowing themselves to be raped. So any rape of a captured elf would also be necrophilia.
Orcs are immortal. They breed like ants. That's an easy answer.
I think they were being cloned
W
Orcs are also immortal creatures so they grew to size over centuries
I'm interested in the reasoning of how you came to the conclusion that orcs are immortal?
@@MountainFisher Because the most popular belief is that orcs are the Avari (Dark elves who refused the call of the Valar) who were enslaved and mutilated by Morgoth both as a mockery to Eru and as tools for war, and since elves are immortal so would orcs be.
@@thelightningking9640 I think they're long lived, but because they were mutilated and debased they might not be immortal. Hard to say, but you may be right, yet remember Feanor's mother? I can't remember her name, but she was so used up and lost so much life force to Feanor she died in the undying lands.
@@MountainFisher Some "orcs" may be lesser Ainur spirits corrupted by Morgoth.
there must be no childhood for orks. Saruman breed the urukhai in what, 6 months?
You have to consider that the last meeting of the white council was in 2952 and in 2953, Steward sturgeon died so Saruman became an unchecked Lord of Isengard, doing whatever he wanted!
We can assume that around the year 3000 TA he was starting to amass resources and manpower, the events of The Fellowship starting in 3018!
So he had at least 60 years of preparation and roughly 15 years to assemble manpower (well, outside of the Orthanc since Gandalf mentions the destructions only AFTER he got imprisoned in late 3018)
Remember in The Hobbit when Gollum was talking about how he had caught a small goblin imp and how it squeaked! So obviously goblin/orcs have imps, children not being the proper word for such an evil creature.
That's just in the movies and not how things worked in Tolkien's writings
SO BASICALLY THE AUTHOR CREATED A PLOT HOLE
Less of a plot hole, moreso an unexplained aspect of his worldbuilding.
I do not think that is realistic to assume massive Ork numbers. Orks are not magical creatures, they still need to eat and drink, i.e consume resources, even if that means consuming each other. The Ork population cannot escape its biology that has the similar limitations as with other races. A mass breeding program could justify the quick replenishment of losses during battles, but Mordor (which is the main stronghold of Sauron) seems to be quite a barren place to sustain many hundreds of thousands of Orks that are good-for-nothing except crafts of evil.
Sauron's armies are sustained by slaves working the fields of Nurn, a semi-fertile region in Mordor's south.
@@DarthGandalfYT they can probably also eat their own dead and their weak/injured etc, which is also a constant food source. I'm sure I heard orcish cannibalism mentioned somewhere in Tolkien's writings!
The we can't tell the differences makes sense for female orcs. We know that Morgoth breed them as soldiers. Why would he keep 50% of them as weaker and less muscular. This mostly likely the reason they only have mass breeding under the control of a greater power. As a greater power is needed to force the females to stay back and breed as normally they would be out raiding with men and having less kids and dying more often.
WHY should we ignore Orc genocide? >:(
Indeed we should support it.
It would not be surprising to have an academic paper presented at the Tolkien Society conference arguing that genocide of orcs is symbolism for European colonial genocide of indigenous population, or some such nonsense.
WHAT IF orcish women lay eggs?
They were gay lovers
Definitely shouldn't ignore the question of orc genocide...
Why? Its not real.
Wanna study Orcs? Go to Russia.
amazing work bro keep up the job, no channel makes anything similar
agreed! I personally am surprised he doesn't have more subs. My fav LOTR channel by far!